Transcript: Episode #76: The Side Effect of a Revolution
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Darko, which appeared on October 29, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:50
while this podcast platform typically explores the spiritual biographies of practitioners in Myanmar, along with delving into the different meditation traditions there, we have somewhat shifted our focus to respond to this current crisis. While we will definitely continue to interview guests who can share Buddhist perspectives, and depart wisdom at this time of need, we will be expanding our work to talk with a wider range of speakers who can add to the breadth and depth of our coverage, so that listeners can better understand the nature of the current crisis. And if there are additional topics or guests that you would like to suggest, please do so by writing us at info at Insight myanmar.org. With that, let's get on to our show. They may dog in the name of God a good day. I'm really pleased to be joined here by Darko of the indie band side effect. And we're expecting to have a wide ranging conversation about everything his in his own words, non traditional life has touched upon his relationship with Buddhism, his activism, of course, his band and his music, eye opening experience with the Rohingya. All of that is to come and before we get into everywhere where his life is developed, let's learn a little bit about where it started. So Darko, thanks so much for joining us for being on here and take us back to where it all began. Tell us about your early years.
Darko 04:42
Yeah, hi. I mean, yeah, I glad that I was invited to join this podcast. And yeah, I've been a big fan of Insight Myanmar, quite a while and I've been I've been listening to some of your podcasts and now I'm here to talk with you and I like to share, you know, whatever. It's worth it to hear about my life and my experiences. So yeah, where should we start?
Host 05:13
Yeah. So tell us where it all began. Tell us where you're from mobile about your family, your upbringing.
Darko 05:18
Yeah. I I'm from Jamar I, I was born in Yangon in 1981. So now I'm 40 years old. Yeah, I have a family. I have a wife and a seven year old son. I found my band side effect back in 2004. So yeah, I found the band side effect. Back in 2004. When I was a student at the University of Foreign Languages. Since then, we've been playing and we, we were bit lucky, and we call to get out of the country. And we played in great festivals, such as, like South by Southwest. And we played in Germany, we played in Denmark. And no, we played in Malaysia. We played in Indonesia, in Thailand, India, and the United States. Yeah, we are still playing. But right now, because of the coup, everything stops and everything is falling apart. And but before the coup, it was because of the COVID. We, we didn't get to play anything, you know, everything stopped. It was earlier this year, in January 2021, we released our latest single core a Seba. And since then, we we cannot do much. And in February 1, on on first of February, there is that was a stupid coup happened. And now the whole country is upside down.
Host 07:12
So they say by that means, like, take it easy. So what was the song about?
Darko 07:17
Yeah, it was. It was the point actually, it was quite interesting, you know, the sound direct meaning it's about, you know, like, about this, you know, but, uh, Johnny, and, you know, like, Where, where we are actually where I, where I was, at the time where I was, you know, like, the tag meaning of the song is about, you know, a journey or a trip and then you get to somewhere that you have no idea about, you know, like, whether it was the end of the road or whether it was the the end of the trip, but, you know, you enjoyed so much. You know, it is great to be there. And you are enjoying where you are at that moment in your life. So it was it was also a reflection of my experience in meditation. I you know, as I began, like, began to meditate in in 2016, to be exact, and before then I was on and off, on and off. But then I was like, devoted to meditation in 2016 and since then, I've been meditating every every day, every morning so I mean, yeah, during Kobe you know, I was also like, meditating heavily because there was the best thing that I could do because I was also I was one of those who were suffering from depression like it was a global depression. And you know, I was one of many people who were Yeah, going through it. So, you know, I got to a point where, you know, like, you know, I didn't know where I would survive or you know, what I will you know, leave this wall but still you know, and you know, and then during meditation I got to a place you know, I got to a place where I feel so good and it I don't know whether you know, it was it was it was the goal of the magician or whether you know, you know what I mean, I don't know where I where I am, where I am, you know, but I definitely enjoyed that place in my head, or I'm not sure if it's even in my mind or head or if there was no mind at all. But you know, I feel you know, I feel oneness at that moment. And I was like, no, yeah. This this is okay here you know i mean it's super easy so I can live with that I can live with that forever or something like that you know what I mean? I don't want to ask for more
Host 10:10
right so that is a bar was kind of like an expression of how you felt at the end of the meditation sitting Is that right?
Darko 10:16
Yeah so you know I used that metaphor as like kind of like you know like very positive vibe to bring it to the war like you know like you know if you are it does matter if I was like if you are if your life is a journey you know if you are like kind of like you know and it was kind of like in giving you that you know happiness being alone going long in in the journey because you know, we were so afraid to be long all the time and at some point you know what I mean there's there's joy and joy in it you know if you can enjoy the journey of being alone and if you can really enjoy life it's there's where happiness is I mean, from my perspective you know, it's really really hard You know, for everyone to go through this like COVID madness alone But still, I mean there's some I don't know there's them there must be important part of life that the universe is teaching us you know, so I don't know so you know, whether the road ends or whether you know, you know where you are or where you are lost, maybe you feel lost, but if you can look around and there are many things to enjoy it enjoy the moment enjoy the now and then that's the vibe of the song actually you know, it's Yeah, I you know, I didn't want to spread more negativity around because of my depression and it was like, kind of at the end of my depression, and I got it like kind of like, you know, positive mind but mindset at the end of the day, so it was about that song.
Host 12:01
Yeah, that sounds great. So let's take a listen to that they say bye now.
Darko 12:43
Baby way beyond
Host 13:43
Yeah, right. That was great. Thanks. So you mentioned how the song came out of your meditative state and the value that you were finding in meditation and spending time with practice. So did you come from a Buddhist family Was this something that was shown to you as valuable in your early years through your your parents and other family members?
Darko 14:04
Not really, the Buddhism that I grew up with is more about you know, very my life bummis Buddhism is focused more on morality and all you know all these practices of doing the good things is more focused on the good and the bad you know, it's very very much like you know, Thomas Buddhism is focused on very like very much on morality and all these slides Yeah, doing the good for the good for your future and everything that Buddha said that like kind of more like following the rules
Host 14:40
seeming like Khufu and akufo kind of like that.
Darko 14:43
Yes, yes definitely could do so you know when your whole life you'll be debating what is good and bad all the time. And yeah, me doing the good thing is actually, you know, you're just like doing what Buddha said, like you know, and then and then you'll be the good person, you know, when you are the good person, you know, you see, you see, like, you know, bad people as the like, you know, evil or terrible human beings and that's, I mean that's the whole thing. So that's I that's where I, you know, grew up with and and i was i have a very strange relationship with Buddhism You know, I've been because you know, I was really into punk rock and you know punk rock doesn't align with any religion you know?
Host 15:39
Right right especially organized religion Yeah,
Darko 15:42
exactly. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of hidden things and a Burmese Buddhism you know, I don't want to talk too much bad things about Burmese Buddhism right now at the moment because you know, I mean, you know, every religion has their their dark side, I would say because it's not about the religion it's about people who practices and who use it as they want or who use it wrongly or rightly, I don't know you know, it is because of the human beings So, and but, you know, I had a very special moment back in 2015. One I got to Rakhine State northern Rakhine State call and I got to a town called Boogie Down with the project called voice of the youth no sorry actually actually. I was there for the first time with a project called rhythm and peace it was it was one year after I dry turning tables Nima and I yeah, I'm the leader of tenancy with numa now I'm the director back then I joined as the coordinator we were very small team and it was the first time that I saw you know Rohingya people and before before that you know, I was you know, I was also one of the Burmese people who believe like you know, these rules are off you know I also believe that you know, Rangers were the others you know, not one of us or something like that. So, I but I was open I I wanted to see it with my own eyes, I wanted to know what was happening because it was like two years after the conflict there right yeah, two or three years after our conflict. So I was very curious to go there. I was scared to but then when I got there, and I I saw the reality and I I was very very angry. I was very angry with the media actually you can media who who thought they stood for your more people or police people or whatever that they believe in you know, they took side
Host 18:29
and what what did you see their
Darko 18:32
eyes? I mean, the first thing that I saw it was like I mean, it was a town so you know, there was people are people people are people mean like, you know, when I when I saw these, like Muslim people, I was not sure whether it was like Rohingya or just just Muslim in the Rakhine State as other people set. Actually, you know, the whole range. You know, the whole Boogie Down boonies on Tom was like, actually, majority of people are really injured people that so I didn't know that, you know, I don't know, Ranger people were, were the people who stay inside the camp, you know, who was trying to get inside the country? That was my knowledge before I went there. Now back then, back then, it was it was it was very confusing, because of you know, like, there was a resistant towards Western media. And also there was no you know, it was there was a big back then, you know, I mean, not many people knew what was actually happening on the ground, but it changed my life and it changed my you know, perceptions, you know,
Host 19:49
was there anything in particular you saw that really stood out in your mind that really opened you up because it seems like this was really a life changing, profound experience, and you mentioned that one of the things that Caught you as you just didn't, you couldn't believe they were living there. They weren't trying to get in or in camps, but they were actually living in homes and a village that was somewhat permanent. So aside from this, was there anything else that really stands in your memory from that visit in that time?
Darko 20:20
Yeah, so one positive sign was, you know, by the river, there was the guide, whistling guy, and rock high guy. You know, look, I mean, they also kind of, you know, maybe it could be a Buddhist guy. I think almost all Rohingya Muslims, and yeah, there was, there was two, there were two, two friends, you know, they were, like, kind of shoulder to shoulder. I didn't know they were playing like brothers. And because they'll be maybe late, no, maybe they are there. They were close friends. And I did not believe my eyes to see that there was a very positive side by racing to see. So that's I saw the humanity in humanity. The reality is different from what it's saying online and in the news, that's like positive thought and very ready to see. And, and the other part is like, kind of, you know, when I when I saw some, like, documents, like household registrations, and then there was a, you know, correction before, it must have been like, you know, before they were recognized as Rohingya, written in Burmese in their household registrations. And then maybe at some point, there was a correction from the immigrations, you know that there was, you know, cross line, and then they fix with a new name? Bengali.
Host 22:09
Right, and you mentioned that everything you saw was really in contrast to what you've been hearing about on local media. For those listeners who are not Burmese and don't exactly know how local Burmese media was reporting at the time. What What have you been reading about from local sources before you went and in what ways was your experience different from those impressions from news reports?
Darko 22:35
As far as I recall, at the time, all the local media's were seeing was that there was no ethnic group called Rohingya in Myanmar, and they all they all were Bengalis, I tried to get into Myanmar from Bangladesh that was mainly a thing and even though they said like, you know, they've been in Myanmar for many many many years, but you know, like, like all these like numa people Rakhi people do not acknowledge them as part of the Newmar society and they have been like a kind of like, you know, very like Why should I say vicious like, you know, like, you know, rape some, you know, rock high women, whenever they got a chance or they've been like, kind of not very dangerous to what kind of society that that was the main narrative, you know, like they were because like, you know, like situations and Bangladesh was really bad. And you know, like, Jamar has more lands and stuff like that. So, it was more like you know, like, these people are these people were trying to you know, steal our lands and you know, our, you know, territory or you know, like trying to be you know, trying to be acknowledged as like one of them are ethnicities to demand they are territory and you know, yeah, I mean to take a you know, big part of, I mean, me to take to get a piece of Yama that was the main narrative back then I as far as I can recall
Host 24:30
right in your experience of being there showed you something very different from the impression that you had
Darko 24:36
Yes, very much different and also, you know, I had to I don't know it was very quite weird moment and I felt really sorry to see them because like I said, you know, a few weeks and then after I talk with a few range of people, they were quite scared to talk with strangers like them too. You know, I met a girl who just I finish high school with I like like flying marks, and she could have been a doctor and she could have she could have gone to medical school, medical, you know, University of medicine or something if she was not everyone job, girl, just because she was a Muslim guys, you cannot go to the university. And she was quite heartbroken. And the father was also heartbroken too, but they knew it already, you know, they kind of accept that they kind of accept that as a reality, their reality. And it really broke my heart, you know, and then and they, you know, I mean, she knew that in life she was she would have to marry, you know, it was kind of like, you know, maybe part of the Muslim tradition too, but also, you know, if she, if you could go to the university and become a doctor, I mean, her father would be very happy. Of course, like she would not have to marry at a young age, you know, but now now she's now now she's married? Of course, you know, like, it was, it was long time ago, it was back in 2015. And, you know, like, I don't know, you know, there was he was not the only one, there were many, many, you know, like, very, what do you call it? talented people, or there are many young people who suffer from this for generations. And I did not know that. And I was also angry at myself to like, how could I? How could I not know, you know, I don't know, how could I believe all these, like, you know, you know, mainstream media's narrative? And anyway,
Host 26:44
why do you think you did believe that?
Darko 26:49
Because there was, there was all I could get access to, for example, information like, like, Who? How could I? How could I find me? How me Where could I find any information that relates to people like this and that, but it came, like, most of this, like this kind of information came from the outside, outside me the Western media, you know. But inside Insight, Myanmar, there was no information. Like there was there was no no information about like, the reality.
Host 27:25
And did you look at Did you look on outside sources? Like you, you speak English, you've traveled the world, you have international friends, you know, about international media organizations, Western media organizations? Did you before going there and learning one story from the local media? Did you take any time to look at and read different stories from the international media?
Darko 27:47
Yeah, of course, you know, before before then, no, I would say I was not interested in those subjects. Because at first, you know, frankly, speaking, at first I thought, you know, it was the conflict between this like, you know, religious conflict, because, you know, I was not into religion at all. So I, I hate it. religions, to be honest, you know, frankly speaking, so, you know, I, whenever it comes to religious conflict, you know, I was like, you know, for that shit, because, you know, like, if you believe in some religion, you will, you will not stop killing each other. But I had that spirit all the time, you know, back then, you know, I really hated religion so much. So, that's why, you know, I wanted it to happen to like, conflict between Buddhists and Muslims. I was like, I okay. That was my, you know, past kind of attitude, you know, at the time, but then, and then I saw some, some news and articles from Western media about, you know, how Rohingya people were, you know, crushed, and also, you know, discriminated badly and treated badly, and how, in my society, you was cruel to them. And I was confused. And of course, I had I have friends, also, but that was the beginning, you know, there was the beginning of the conversation about like, talking these things, because before, you must, society was not open to talk about sensitive issues, and sensitive issues, you know, I mean, we could not talk, talk openly and freely. So it was, I think, in all this openness began around 2012 something so that's what, that's when the conflict started to happen. And it was the beginning, although I know talking things openly and disagreeing things openly. And yeah, that was the beginning of all the shift started to happen. So yeah, of course. Yeah, I got access to the Western media, but then, you know, it made me think and it made me want to know more. So that's why I decided to go there and and learn by myself at the time my friends were talking shit about me on my back like who are who are walking in the NGO wall they were talking shit about me because no like Docker one day uh you know work with these people because like you know because yeah he got paid by the like you know this yeah he got funded by the Western and Western NGOs I NGOs
Host 30:37
How long were you there for
Darko 30:41
the first time it was only three weeks
Host 30:44
and you went several times
Darko 30:46
yeah yes I went I went back there several times after that
Host 30:53
so you know when you're talking about this woman who this girl who wants to be a doctor and can't of course that is really tragic for her and her family but on a societal level it also is not something that really helps a functioning society you know, there have been discriminatory civilizations and countries all throughout time whether they're discriminated against women or Jews or blacks or whoever whoever the case may be. And basically you're closing in hierarchy occupations, whether they're teachers or doctors or whatever, you're closing that down from a whole sector of society that could be going there and teaching and saving lives and doing all kinds of things because you just are not allowing them access into the economy and profession and so that's not just it's important to know that's not just harming the individual that wants to have a career path that's also not a very good plan for a society that wants to have qualified people in positions for what it needs to be able to function and so in any case you went there once for three weeks you go there several times afterwards and then you come back to gone where I imagine it must have been like a different world where you've seen these things with your own eyes and everyone around you is still operating in the same kind of haze and fog of misinformation that's coming through somewhat verified new sources of local media what were those conversations like when you came back? What did you try to talk to friends about what did you try to tell them how did those conversations go?
Darko 32:28
Yeah, I I cannot stop talking about them to be honest. And I I began to talk with more open minded friends first, and I mean, even for them it was quite hard to listen to what I said because I went there I saw with my own eyes and I make friends there. And the May I was more like you know, I sounded like Rangers are real you know? They are not the others they've been there for hell because you know I saw them like wearing lone G's wearing the NACA because the West which is like very bullish thing to do, I mean, I saw the way I saw Ranger people they are they are more bunnies than other Muslim people in other regions of other states in Myanmar, you know, because I don't know they have different or no special kind of tradition among Muslim society I think you know, they are a little bit more open minded. As far as I can see, you know, they have tradition of like a kind of music too, because I mean, in Muslim societies like music is not I mean, in in, in the other part of the Amar. You know, Muslim communities like music is not embraced well. And but you know, Ranger has their own tradition of music and dance and other things. He was also a reader food is amazing. Amazing. You know,
Host 34:05
what is ring of Hutto, tell us about what you ate?
Darko 34:08
Yeah, I mean, we had a friend and we have a friend called monk tonight. So he, he he's a very nice guy. So he, um, he invited us asked me the whole team, like the whole tenant, he was no more team to his house. I too, you know. Yeah, he, he, he made he made. He made dinner for us. And I you know, I mean, he gave us like, what do you call it? That dinner was very much similar to like, you know, French dinner To be honest, because like, he came with me, he treated us very specially. And I said, I felt really bad. You know, I felt like it. You know, I felt kind of like a white guy in colonial ah you know it was like kind of like 3d 3d especially I mean I was no special you know and and but I he treated us very special I kind of like it came with you know like a sense of food you know like kind of like a standard with appetizer and then he like I'm sorry you know it was a long time ago and I can't I can't tell exactly what I had but it was more It was very similar to Indian food like you know like he you know he came with Rudy and and you know like kick in and I mean King with sets you know after one set you know he he took the you know, food and then you know, like came back with analysis and then at the end was you know, like, like sweets you know, like I kind of fresh there that thing
Host 35:57
right so did you make some good friendships while we were there?
Darko 36:01
Yes, was him of course and I also met a few young people and yeah like to share you one stupid thing that I did was no one I had a chat behind the fence because like they were also afraid that you know, the police or the authority would see them that they were talking with me they were very cautious but you know, they really wanted to talk with me just to you know, like, let me know the truth and stuff like that so I was there with a group of young young men behind the fence in their neighborhood and then I you know, like they they talked about you know, how their life was and how they went through an everyday night doing the horrible re debt no during time and how they survived and everything and then I asked one stupid question call I asked a guy like, I mean, no, I did not ask the guy I actually asked them like, what do you think that you will be doing in five years? And they're like, what one guy said bro, like I don't even know what's gonna happen tomorrow. And how can I even think what I will be doing in five years I don't even know what I'm going to do next month but tomorrow and and he said he kept on saying that you know, I I told my mother that like, why did you Why did you like get me in this war in this place? Like you know, why was I born here? And you know, I don't know it made me almost cry because I had a moment you know, when I was 27 years old, and I had kind of like a like a moment that I I wanted to commit suicide and it was a very dark time in me and I didn't want to continue my life and I I was almost I almost jumped off my balcony off the seventh floor and and i at the time I even call my mom and say you know mom, like you know I shouldn't have ball you know, I mean you should ask like you know, like you know, you should have made that abortion before I was born or something like that. Like I said terrible things to my mom because I was ready to die. And it brought me back to that time and I felt so ashamed you know, compared to his situation and my Susan I was born in Django, you know, I know I I had privileges. And you know what I mean?
Host 39:04
That's what I was gonna say it sounds everything you're saying sounds like you're dealing with the truth and the reality that you have privilege and my experience in both recognizing and confronting to myself as well as talking to others from very different societies. This is a really painful, difficult thing to do to recognize the privilege that one has in the system wherever the country is talking about wherever the society to recognize that the system is not the same for others as it's for you. And to reconcile what that means and how to continue living interacting with that knowledge and that truth it's a really difficult thing to do.
Darko 39:47
Yeah, so that's why it you know, after the trip, it changed me also we had a I had a friend I know I brought I brought two goodie down in To Rakhine State, he was with me with my team. And he was actually the project manager at the time. And, you know, actually, he was political it. He had Islamophobia, to be honest, you know, he had a, he had a thing with Muslim, you know, I don't know, at the other day, but I believed in him. And I told him like not not to do any stupid things, and not to say any stupid things when I was there, that we had a deal and he was with me, and but, you know, it changed his life to You know, I don't know, this, that moment that I, that I remember is that, like, you know, he, at one night, you know, like, he told me, we, you know, we slept in the same room that week, we shared this room, at the hotel, there was not a hotel, you know, there was no Hotel in that town, it was a guest house. A bit dodgy get his house, but then, like, he told me at night, you know, like, he told me, like, you know, that experience, like, you know, one of the guy from the workshop, we actually we went there to do that workshop, you know, like, to bring young people from different communities. You know, to make music together, to learn music together, to play together to sing together, you know, like to talk not to have a dialogue, where they could not meet in public or where they cannot meet, you know, I don't know, where they could not do such things. Normally, so we facilitate that those workshops, and yeah, during the workshop times, and one guy was like, No, he was because my friend is like, he's a cool guy, you know, I mean, he has long hair, and, you know, he, I don't know, you know, I mean, he's, he's, he's, he's a rock and roller. So he's a cool guy. And you know, these kids, he never, they never met this kind of guy from Chicago. And, you know, they look up to him. And one day I said, Bro, I want to be like you and then he was like, he was he was shocked to hear that and he was like, What the fuck, you know? Like I I'm nobody, I mean, anyone can be like me. And he replied that at that kid said, No, no, here, now me. It broke his heart. It literally changed him from like, like Muslim hate us to Muslim sympathizer at all. So it's a life changing experience. I'm so proud that we made that trip. And since then, he's a different person at all.
Host 42:36
Yeah, I mean, and that's really a beautiful and profound moment of confronting privilege. I mean, that is really the essence of privilege that you that what I'm able to do, you cannot do because of where society puts you and what opportunities are available. So you reference how you're, you know, you went to these camps, and it changed you, your friend went to these camps, he had this experience and it changed him. And yet, when you would then go back to Yangon, to your family, to your friends, to your work to your community. And you would try to for those people that you couldn't bring to Rakhine you were trying to bring the reality of Rakhine to them through stories and videos and audio. I imagine you were trying to do this. How for those that wouldn't come there. But actually, you can talk to you back in Yangon, how did that go over? How did they believe or interact with what you were trying to tell them?
Darko 43:32
It was hard, you know, I could not change their perspectives. Of course, like, I was thankful that they could tolerate me talking too much about Rohingya people since then. And whenever whenever I got the chance, you know, I could, like disagree with them and like no, trying to tell the different reality that I saw a no, no, no, they are not the others. No. Like they were they they've been they were born in Jamar so which means that like no, they are part of as to it was kind of, like kind of proto truth to them to embrace because actually, because of the mainstream narrative, I would say, you know, all popular remedies, or traditional derivative that is like, you know, we need to protect this country. Because, no, we need to protect our time. And everything, every portion that we've been taught and we we grew up with, so you know, I yeah, I believe like, you know, if people have more interaction with these humans other forever, they call it, you know, the others or whatever, is the if there's an interaction, you know, interaction among each other. You know, there will be more bridges. And there will be less division.
Host 44:52
Right? Yeah. So one of your songs you made recently it was called make Tila and Mattila is the name of a town. In Central Myanmar where there were some very serious riots involving Muslims there and a Buddhist crowd. Can you tell us a bit about what happened in make Tila and why you wanted to make a song about it and what do you say in your song?
Darko 45:16
It meant it was it was the wrong 2012 I think yeah, it was yeah there was right after it happened in was right after the first conflict happened in Rakhine State as far as they they name it as like no conflict is between the between the Muslim people who came from other country and local you know Rakhi Buddhist people or local people that was that never do and then it similar conflict have any at law so the Muslim community is a major law are now not others you know, the people there that there was very severe conflict it was infused by these radical monks especially the one call we had to back then he I think he contacted all the whole day, you know, the whole this you know, Muslim heading campaigns and it was you know, yeah, it really touched touched my soul a you know, a, it was the time that I actually woke up I think, and then I was really really sad and I wanted to do something about it and I cannot do anything about it. And then yeah, just like the song is only about my release, you know, of this, you know, frustration, anger and sadness. So, the song is about, you know, just telling them who are who are who are involved in this violence and conflict and also who are mentally involved mentally involved me like, you know, even though they did not they were not involved physically but you know, mentally they evolved because they hated the Muslim you know, who were just like, crushed. And, you know, severely but there was. I mean, they have voices has been their voices has not heard, I would say, it was more bodies or like this. Yeah, Muslim communities are bad.
Host 47:33
Right, so let's go ahead and take a listen to this song Meiktila. And that's a great song. But in addition to the music, the video is really something spectacular. I really encourage all the listeners to go and find make the love by side effect on YouTube and see the video that accompanies this music. In the meantime, can you tell us walk us through what the video depicts and why you chose to have the scenes in there
Darko 50:05
oh that mean you is actually it's it's one of the saddest songs but that version is special version because you know i i remake that song when I was in Malaysia with other artists from the region and also other artists from you know Germany and Australia so that was a special edition it was only with me and those friends so it was it was not technically side effects though I would have to say because it was produced by a German music producer called see so and also it was performed by you know this Malaysian musician called Nadia with her beautiful vocal and also rented out from Singapore. So I collaborated with them and end the video with like one of the project I make one of the videos during the project called transition days which was done by my organization tangente was NEMA
Host 51:20
right thanks for that. So, can you describe for listeners that haven't seen the video what is depicted?
Darko 51:29
Yeah, it was the music video is was done you know, we use the cinematic approach because you know, still there you know, like transition This was done last year, I think last year or no transition, this was the project that we did in 2019 and till the you know, till then, still it was still you know, like, it was hard to discuss these issues in public. So, we use the dice cinematic techniques to make a really, really good, you know, like heartwarming music, video and you know, so that it could transcend other like, it could transcend the barriers of people, filters, you know, people have like filters, whether they want to you know, receive this information or not. So, it was it was about you know, like, we used I mean, we decided to make the video with women, because women are the most you know, what you call it women's are the victims mainly, you know, whenever the conflict happened, they did not started it everything never started conflict, right. And then but they are they are the people who suffer from these conflicts mainly. And also we use the and also it is a strong figure to represent, you know, what could happen. So it was like, there was like, there was a nun and there was a Muslim prayer a woman prayer so we got we were lucky to get access to one of the mosque one of it was only one mosque that was open minded to let us in and make this film. And also that, you know, that mosque is really very unique. And you know, like, so yeah, I mean, it's never been exposed, like what is inside the mosque? You know what I mean? in Myanmar, me, I mean, I even I, I have never been inside a monster, you know, I didn't know what that was like and inside and everything. So it was also a very good way to show what is inside and you know, it was the music video represent the true believers, you know, one side from Buddhists were put aside and one side from Muslim side, you know, these two woman's side they, they believe their, their own faith. You know, like they suffer from the situation, both. And eggs, you know, I don't know, you know, it was a metaphor off many things. And I, we try to bring positivity and we try to bring hope to our society, you know, like, yeah, we are human, we are human beings. And you know, like, maybe we can solve that.
Host 54:32
Yeah, well, it's a really beautiful, I definitely encourage everyone to go and watch and listen to it. And you mentioned that part of the reason why you wanted to make that video and that song was to begin to introduce certain topics in the conversations that were not really that comfortable in Myanmar society at the time and you reference how before 2012 there was a certain kind of sensitivity and topics that people just did not go there. And then after 2012, there started to be a little bit of openness and how people could talk and what they could talk about. I'm curious to get your take on where you think that's that at 2021. And I know that we're getting a little of our little ahead of ourselves with the coup, and we'll get to the post coup period later in the talk. But I'm curious about this part specifically, because I've noticed that there has been a marked difference after 2021, after Washington mentioned after February 1 after the coup, in terms of what people are comfortable saying what conversations they're able to have. And it really seems like the top has just blown off. And people are now just comfortable in ways they've never began. They've never been and what I know of me and our society, both in person as well as on online and the profiles to really just talk about a lot of subjects that were taboo or considered unconventional or to not really engage with and in a direct way. And so based on what you saw this opening in 2012, and gradually through the year, through the years, following that, from February 1, what have you seen in terms of conversations being allowed to happen in various sectors of Myanmar society?
Darko 56:23
Yeah, it opened up, it opened everything up, I think because people realize, no, there was no worse thing than the Immaculate, Dima military. And the cool. So people began to realize, you know, I mean, now, now is the time because now we're never you know, I mean, I think we have this feeling, you know, now never kind of feeling you know, now never, you know, if we're not talking about this, like when, but still, they're still there. I'm not sure if you notice that they're still even like whenever Ranger issue was brought up, like people begin to Oh, now like, Can we talk about this later? kind of attitude, you know, and then I don't know. And at one one interesting thing was like, I hope it's not true. Like, you know, like, Rohingya issue was brought up when my society was hopeful for our to be from the UN. Because no, no, I think like so many of us think it was the only chance that un can come in, and, you know, like, and bring this non military down with their peacekeepers troops, which is not going to happen. And I think that's when people began to tolerate that's one thing and the other thing was like, one we were hit by this what do you call it? atrocity? A, it right in front of our eyes. And people woke up, you know, like, all these stories that they did not believe. It could have been the truth. That was the first day I think so they can talk about all these like, you know, like, minorities issues, and all these like a genocide Academy, the war genocide was the tug of war to you know, before coup, it was the big issues where you know, like, man, people who believe the genocide now because of sin, Suki defended NEMA military, you know, with, you know, this genocide thing at the ICJ So, you know, like, the whole country believes that shed and the whole country believes that there was no genocide in Yama, all this shit, you know, so, but then after cool, you know, people began to talk about it again. And it opened up a lot of conversations, and it's still going on. And I really hope, you know, you must society won't be segregated, again, is already a little bit, you know, it's already been, you know, segregated a lot. And it's been into pieces. But still, you know, I really hope, you know, this coup will bring people to get this somehow to be more united.
Host 59:37
I want to go back to what you were talking about earlier in the discussion about your Buddhist practice. You mentioned that briefly and then we went on to talk more about your experiences in Rakhine and very important topic to understand your interaction there and what was going on, but I want to bring it back to your meditation experience and where we left off, you would talk about growing up Been a traditional Burmese Buddhist family and being a non conventional type that like punk music and didn't really have a thing for organized religions so it never cool or cool or for listeners who don't know Burmese and know more the poly the Khosla and our Khosla actions that wasn't really what you were looking for in practice. And so you drifted away became perhaps atheist or agnostic, but then found your way back into meditation and Buddhist meditation. Can you tell us a bit about that journey?
Darko 1:00:33
Yeah. Yeah, that was right after like, you know, 2015, I would say, you know, after 2015, you know, it questioned my, you know, my tradition, and, you know, I was never religious, but still, you know, whatever. Whenever I came to Buddhism, or whenever I was thinking I had, I don't know, okay, let me let me rephrase that. After 2015, after I had that experience, and I questioned my own source, my own society, my own my own community, like that I was born with this Buddhist community, you know, like, they all are nice people. They follow Buddhist instructions, and Buddha's instructions, and Buddhists have recommendations of Lakota law and everything they practice, like, you know, good marriage, and everyday, you know, they will say cooties, you know, what, his bad days and everything, but when it comes to the issue, everyone wants nuts, and everyone became like, bad people, you know, they don't even see themselves as bad people that they think they are the defender of Buddhism, you know, and they're like, no, they have the right to hate those people. Because these Muslims are naturally bad people kind of, you know, possessions, I can't believe it. And I don't know how to, you know, debate with them, or how to argue with them. And I'm so sick and tired of those conversations. And whenever I was talking with like, some people and then they will say like, Oh, no, that's not the real this is the real Buddhism's this and that so I was sick and tired of like, you know, being asked, like, Who are you to say, you know, what is right or wrong, or, you know, the Buddha said, This, Buddha said that, you know, and then, and then those like Muslim hated campaign was led by these, like, high ranked Buddhist monks in Yama. So I was like, you know, this, it, you know, it pulled the trigger for me, and I was like, I just wanted to, I didn't want to be in the same group with them. That was the first time so I needed to let go of my religion. And I, yeah, I denounce Buddhism, like, I would say, traditional Buddhism, and then, but actually, what I understood about Buddhism, in the core was like, you know, I mean, it's not following the rules is just like going. Within, you know, like, finding yourself, walking the path by yourself. It takes credit, you know, like, I don't know, put us in many other things, but still, you know, like, not listening to what he said, it's not actually the Buddhist way. So you need to find your own truth. Go inside, you need to walk the path, and nobody walked the path. You know, they just want to be the good person and just following the rules and you know, I'm the good person, you know, I should be going to Nirvana or you know, I should be okay, the rewards in the next life, and the fact that shit sorry, Excuse My French, but, I mean, I mean, I was so tired of it, and then I just let go of it. And then I started, you know, and then that's when even like, just after just just one or two weeks later, you know, and then I started to sit and meditate. And I, I was because I was just, I started with, like, all my stress relief. It was very much like 10 minutes. I started with very 10 minutes, you know, guided meditation by the, you know, YouTube's guided meditations, you know, it got me through. And after that, you know, I just, I just liked the experience. And now only
Host 1:04:17
make sure you understand I have your story, right. So you're saying that your experience and what happened with in Rakhine, and the how organized Burmese Buddhists were responding to this, so affected you that you wanted to drop out of the religion entirely, but in that process of dropping out, you then very soon it sounds like found a meditation practice. Is that correct?
Darko 1:04:45
Yeah, kind of is. It sounds very contradictory, right. But I do not see meditation as the Buddhist thing because of meditation. When Buddha. Buddha did not invent meditation, to be honest. He used Techniques he walked the path and that's how he shared I mean you can do it too I don't know you know, I mean for me it's kind of like it's a it's actually ultimate rebellion is like a kind of animate revolution inside. I would call it inner revolution you know it was you are you I don't know you, you you started revolution of what you think who you are and what you think.
Host 1:05:33
So you're dropping out of the Burmese Buddhist religion is what propelled you to begin a Buddhist meditation practice is that correct?
Darko 1:05:42
I would not call it Buddhist meditation. I
Host 1:05:47
okay, well tell us about the meditation tell us about what kind of meditation you started doing and what you're doing now.
Darko 1:05:52
Okay. I started doing meditation with kind of brainwave entrainment because I started looking for the like how a magician can affect basically first of all physically why so it's um how you know it can help you release some like serotonin in your brain and you know how it affects your no stress relief and everything started it started like that and then I use this like brain wave like kind of made you can find them on YouTube like brainwave and freemen so that you know you put on headphones you put a headphone and there's a you know a certain frequency and certain live this binary beats you know Pandora beats can affect your brainwaves to be exact and that this brainwave can be attained during meditation. So like you know if you heavily meditate you would be your brain would be in like like hang out as our state is for the beginners and then if you are you know if you are me know like serious meditator you can attain this like theater state you know where your brainwave is very quiet and very low you know, normal normal state when we were speaking we will have the beater be the state will be your brainwave so I learned study based like database online and I made online research and I began to meditate with these like listening to this binary beat is more physical you know, so it helped me calm and it helped me focus and it helped my decision making process so I started these things and now I tried different techniques like chakra meditation will help me a lot and also I like I also like this jhana meditation jhana is mainly is a Sanskrit word for meditation and it doesn't say necessarily say because now or Scimitar or whatever that is and and I like also I mean right now what I really enjoy is like you know it was watching the thoughts I don't know what to call it in Pali you know, it's watching a new persona Yeah, I think so. But I mean like, because no meditator would argue with me because no death can be done by like, I don't know highly intelligent people or something in your mind, I would say so it sounds like
Host 1:08:35
the I mean the toy human tradition does that betray him in tradition is part of the one of the many things they do is to look at the to observe the thinking in the process of thinking is one of six sense stores. So when you were doing these practices when you're observing the mind and when you're doing jhanas? You mentioned and some thought, are you are? Who's your teacher in this? Are you reading the original text? You have some lineage or some Burmese teacher that's there? How are you getting instruction?
Darko 1:09:06
To be honest, I don't have a specific teacher, but I, I follow and then Alan Watts. Yeah, and I follow like Satguru, meditations, guidance, and I follow some of all shows, meditation techniques and stuff like that. So I didn't know learn from specific teachers in EMR. Yeah, I mean, not properly. So I've been doing here and there and I know, the best meditation technique that I enjoy, like I told you is just watching the mind not judging it because it doesn't teach you know, I mean, nobody taught me to sit like that because I definitely enjoy the moment there was no thought at all. It was only only me or I mean I sometimes I even lost myself or you know the sense of the self image in in that moment it was very I mean it was not what was to say you know it was beyond words I think you know I can't I can't explain it very well but still you know there was no thought at all and you you lost the sense of yourself me like no there's no ego or the self and there's something as you feel like maybe you are you or something as like you know beyond mind and body or something like that I don't know there's maybe it's just the consciousness or something as I can't explain but that moment I mean sometimes you feel like it's only five minutes but then it like 30 minutes gone, you know, so I left I left to stay there right now.
Host 1:10:51
Right so with your interest in jhanas I guess you never went to poke or never learned the power of method because that seems like it'd be something that would be very similar to what your interest was. Really. Okay. Yeah, do you know my punk?
Darko 1:11:05
Yeah, I know I know about Paul because maybe I was against too much tradition, traditional styles and too much and you know, whatever. People believe in I was so against it. So maybe I was to rebel. Maybe I think it's a good thing to learn. I mean, relearn them from a different different, different perspectives. Because you know what I mean, I mean, for me, it was like, you know, I mean, being grew up as a bunnies. bunnies, boy bunnies, man, you know, it was like, it was something that you need to believe in. So whenever you are learning that you already like you are you are, you're getting there to believe. So I don't want to be trapped in that, you know, because I mean, the way now I practices is like, you know, I don't need to believe anything. So which is, which is why I really enjoy this meditation process. Because No, I do not need to believe anything. So I just like, I'm just exploring, and, you know, and no judging at all. And you know, I'm just observing what I like, I don't know what's happening during that time, you know, and what is changing inside me, I mean, I began to notice that I've been constantly changing actually.
Host 1:12:23
And I think that's something that's so interesting about the difference between Myanmar and Western society is that in Myanmar society, the act of doing Burmese Buddhist meditation is kind of the apex of the Orthodox and the traditional and the conventional way to show your involvement in the religion where as in the West, it's completely the opposite to do meditation is somewhat of a rejection of normal functioning conventional Western society it's kind of the the weirdest and most rebellious and different thing that you could do to walk away from so many the expectations of you know, business and education and culture and, and certainly religion, and to just sit and practice this. And so this has been one of the most interesting things that I found in my own journey to me and Mar through my own experience of coming so many years ago and then watching so many others come as there's like, you know, the many of the Western practitioners who come here and are doing meditation, and forming very instant deep friendships with many of the Burmese Buddhists because they're, they're doing the same thing and they're on the same path and they have the same objectives. So on surface level, even a deep level, it seems like there's so much that's in common, but when you get to go a little further, you see that the act of meditation is performed by many Burmese Buddhists in Myanmar is kind of a confirmation or affirmation of their religious conventional orthodox practice. Whereas for the foreigners, it's exactly the opposite of that it's it's it's something that even though the the goal and the reasons for practicing are very similar, if not the same, the thing that's driving them to that is something of a rejection of their own society and their way to like think outside the box and to want to be independent and creative and individual and so where there's so much common ground on this one act, when you pull away from that act, and you start talking about from people from both backgrounds, society start talking about other things, there's actually tends to be not as much in common as you initially expect, because of this bonding experience of meditation to seek liberation and follow these crucial aspects of the Buddha's teachings as similar as they are. The reason for coming to them are often directly opposite and that doesn't that's not a bad thing, but they're opposite. That doesn't mean you can't make friends and learn and find many things in common. It just means that there it's not quite as similar as it seems, when you when that initial encounter happens. So I found that very interesting.
Darko 1:14:57
And you're right, thank you for bringing bringing that out. You know because nobody dig that deep yet because I mean when you see because I don't want to I don't want to talk bad thing about them you know it's fine that whatever they believe in I don't have any problem with that but the problem is that no one day told me to believe the same thing I it really pissed me off but now I am getting better at you know coping coping with that because because I'm very naturally I'm a very angry person you know so this anger has been killing me and all the time and I can't be I can't be angry my whole life so now I'm 40 years old and I really want to become you know i mean i mean it's fine that they believe in whatever they want to believe and that's why you know it it definitely for me when I just let go of my entity as good as a Buddhist because now I can love anyone you know from Muslim community or whatever you know I love I can love every human being whoever I want you know that I don't need to protect any any religion or religious group you know i don't i don't belong I don't belong to any religious group so you know I don't need to stand for them you know, I just you know, I don't want to be in any social groups anymore. I also want to denounce Filipina Burmese too but I don't know how to you know, I'm a global citizen and you know, I I'm just you know, I'm just wondering you know, species called human you know, so I mean, how can we transcend all these classifications by the human beings and I mean, the best thing that I can do is to sit quietly and focus on my prayers and also you know, like trying to live in that moment of like you know, rejecting or non non either rejecting you know, I just need to learn about myself you know, I mean, like, I am not the one that I'm told, I am not me things are not as I was taught, actually, you know, and so to learn everything that I I was taught I was program which is a big job it is a long journey to go there and also to look at life again life and the war. Like I don't know anything. Just to watch what is happening without judging, which is good or bad. I was very good at the before before the code, you know, the question that thing again, like now, I mean, I know, am I seeing good or bad? You know what I say? It really really challenged me and challenged my state of mind I can't because it's definitely a bad thing. And now is this savages has been killing a lot of like a lot of innocent people in Myanmar and I can't I can just watch these horrible things without judging it's really really yeah it's very challenging for me too.
Host 1:18:11
Yeah, let's go there let's let's talk about how your meditation practice has fit in after the coup you mentioned how your meditation practice where it fit with when you went to recline and your your your experiences there with your depression with your music with when when you it became more of a serious practice and normal times but then looking in the era after the coup what has your meditation been doing for you? What have been the challenges? What's been the insights? How's your practice Ben?
Darko 1:18:41
Yeah, it is really challenged my meditation with like, non judgmental, non judgmental observation, I would say no observation of the events and happenings and I i've been that Yeah, focusing on that because it was really hard thing to do. Not to judge a situation which is good or good nor bad because you know, I believe nothing is good or bad. It is what it is, you know, whether even if we like it or not, but it with that with that philosophy or with that, with that way of looking at the wall, and what I'm actually feeling is different. What I'm feeling is what I'm feeling you know, there was nothing is good nor bad. It's a statement all the way that I want to look at it. But what I'm actually feeling it's I feel like you Sorry, IP, really sad and I I want to do something to protect that. protect innocent people to protect people from being What do you call it brutally treated, and I wanted to do something about it. Which is, which is not a bad thing at all. Now I'm not I'm talking about going to bed, right? Hello is quite contradictory, and it's very weird situation as before coup happened, I thought I got to a point where that I can look at, you know, because these things have been this thing has been happening in since the beginning of time I think, you know, or at least since the beginning of human existence, you know, I mean human, we human has been killing each other for centuries, you know, since the beginning, you know, whenever we felt like the others are taking our stuff or you know, our training, so something, maybe it is in our DNA, you know, we want to kill others know, whenever we feel threatened. And now we thought, you know, I mean, that won't happen again, because our civilization is now so much more intelligent than before some of it was, it's an illusion, it's not true, you know, I think human beings will keep killing each other until the end of the time. Sorry, if I sound very negative, right now hear that? Maybe it's the nature of things I don't know. So it really questioned my way of looking at it. But to me, what helps me do it this time, but I keep doing that I keep meditating, even though I feel weird, because it helps me because, at least at least No, I don't just my thoughts. Right? So it really helps my mental health. And also my, you know, my system to you know, because now during COVID, you know, meditation to say that meditation can boost your immune system, physically. So I keep doing that. And yeah, for my mental health, and for my physical health, too, it really, it helps.
Host 1:22:09
Right? And so you mentioned how your meditation has been a support for you during these really hard days after the coup, what have as far as safe to share? Can you tell us what you've been doing? or How are you been supporting the people since the February 1 coup.
Darko 1:22:35
I'm a musician, and I believe in this creative intervention. So far, what I did with the like, you know, through this creative activism, also, you know, bring the motivation to the protesters, and also to the resistance, and also to keep the revolution going. So right now, the current vibe, our current state of mind, among my youth is very, you know, it's very, what do you call it? gloomy. It's very gloomy right now, because I know, it's been longer than they thought, and, in the things getting worse and worse, and, you know, many young people are depressed. And they lost hope, and what I've been doing with the light, you know, like, as much as I can bring some motivation to them, and bring some positivity, but not the COVID positive, but the positivity to them. And I've been secretly doing that, and I can share that information with you, because of my my team safety. And by the way, you know, I closed my organization Turning Tables Myanmar to keep my team safe, and we stopped working, and we're just like laying low right now and thinking what to do next, next. But I've been just like, doing things with my fellow musicians and other artists, like, you know, working with poets and other things.
Host 1:24:29
So like, have you made new music for the protests or what have you been doing exactly, creatively?
Darko 1:24:35
creatively, I cannot write any music, frankly speaking. And it was not very long ago that I could listen to music again. Because I miss since February, and I cannot I mean, it was it was it was really, really terrible experience for musicians. You know, when I could not listen to a song, the whole song I could play a song like for, for the live for a minute, and then I would feel weird, or I would be guilty of listening to a song music or trying to enjoy it. And then I would stop and I would do something else. I mean, I will do everything at the same time I talking with many people, mostly mostly communicating, you know, communicating, and also you're trying to help what they are needed. And during the process, no, I would, I would, I could be more helpful during the process, because now there will be people needing this and that, so I will just, like know, like, to make money, or I would provide facilities, you know, for their protests. But now, it's, it's more complicated. And And, by the way, you know, I don't believe in this, like, you know, you have conflict. So it's very hard for me to help people to, you know, I think most people want to, you know, fight back with these weapons and armed resistance, which I do not disagree with. But still, you know, it's for me, it's really hard to get involved in this not.
Host 1:26:15
So, so what do you believe in? If you don't think that that is the route for victory? in your estimation? What do you think needs to happen for the people to win?
Darko 1:26:29
To be honest, I don't believe in anything right now. So I don't know I don't to be, to be honest, I don't know what we can do, I have no idea. So that's why I don't disagree with them. Because they are, they are at least doing what they believe in. Let's see where it leads to.
Host 1:26:52
So it sounds like you're a little stuck with not exactly knowing what the direct route is and trying to meditate and maybe help people on an individual level and still get a sense for what exactly would be most useful at this time.
Darko 1:27:08
Yes, but I would, I would like to focus is to bring people together, because now now people are drifting away from each other again, because of the situations are getting worse is natural, it is human nature, where we are stressed and where we are devastated. And then, you know, and then when we when, when human beings cannot fight back the authority or the dictators, we will probably be kind of fight each other, and is likely to happen sooner or later. And I would try to protect it from happening, which is less likely to be successful. But I mean, as
Host 1:27:57
an How are you doing that? Exactly? Because you mentioned you're not able to make music? So in what ways are you trying to inspire or support the morale or support to people creatively, if you're not able to do music yet?
Darko 1:28:10
Creating platforms and creating channels, so now everybody is freaking out, and everybody is scared to be found that they are doing or they are voicing something, you know, so everyone needs a little bit of protection. So I'm figuring out a way to do things with without, you know, like, being supported or without being attacked by the military or these, you know, as AC security forces. Oh, you know, so this is something that I've been focusing on I'm I think they need platform and channels to keep the revolution going. And to keep this resistance going or to be united to me to stay united is actually the most rebellious you know, like, because like the, the military in the military is the most successful tactic. And the maybe the probably the only tactic is divided who is likely to be working. And we need to change that. We need to change that. So that's why you know, like, Yeah, not to be divided. And, and regardless of our differences, if we can be together. And if we can stay united. I think we can win.
Host 1:29:43
Yeah, so concerning this performance channel you're doing I understand that. It's not just you as many people that are involved and you're all getting together and doing these really great and exciting and motivating pieces for the people and really to increase their morale. So let's play one of them here. And get a sense of what you're talking about. milliliters pool pool pool pool Shankar jhankar coming up Yeah, my mom would love to be your be your man Manley here to insomnia Theresa on as usual. I said my mom won't let it up too much. Yo, come on Pico. Sato, Natalia no to Paul got a knife. We are walking in the time before Nothing can stop us now. We will fire God. At right, so that's one example, can you share a bit about what goes into making these pieces, what the artists are looking for what they're trying to create, as well as what kind of reaction they've been getting?
Darko 1:33:15
Actually, I like that kind of creative intervention. That's the best thing that we could do right now, rather than sitting back and being depressed, and it can also give hope to many other people. And, and also that sounds actually, you know, it's it really, like, you know, gives me the chills, and it kept me motivated. And it gave me hope again, and I think it will work on the same way to other people. And that song is also it was, you know, collaboration between between the rappers, from other countries to you know, so, which is So, which made me think that like, you know, this could this bad incident, this horrible thing actually, like trigger some of the, you know, some of important like, collaboration between, you know, between people. So, which means, like, it can it can reach to many other, you know, people it transcends the borders, and it can enlighten many other individuals across across Southeast Asia.
Host 1:34:35
Right and for creative people that are listening to this that are outside of Myanmar, what could they do whatever their creative background, whatever, a graffiti artist or rapper, poet, whatever their their artistic ability. What could they be doing right now to support the morale of the people?
Darko 1:34:56
Yeah, if they could do their work Their work I mean if they could create a piece of work by for example if they can do graffiti on their wall about landmark situation I mean it that would make me among people feel like what do you call it that will make me my few people feel supported you know we are visible because now Now we feel like you know the whole the whole world they don't care about us you know like they are busy with their own things in life you know they our own struggle of course I know everyone is struggling in their lives but still you know like we are you know going through like horrible situations and like you know, we feel like no one cares about us. So if you if you can do a gravity or a poem or you know or just like you know like visual like kind of like graphic design or digital poster or whatever they do you know, whenever we see something that you know people from the other side of the wall is doing something in it it gives a signal that you know, they care about and it's like one individual care about us and also it it will make other people from their country curious about us and you know, like maybe like 10% or I don't know how much percent will be so curious about SM they will start searching for our information so we should be hard that way you know, they can create awareness I mean creating awareness is a great thing that they can do and also write a song about it you know, if people listen to it, you know they wouldn't know about what is happening in your mouth right now and hopefully they will care about it
Host 1:36:48
right Yeah, well let's certainly hope that some artists listening take that up I know there have been many artists at different levels who supported in different ways and one thing I realized I forgot to ask you because we've been kind of jumping around here and there with your story. Can you remind us what led you to form your band side effect what year was that in and what what drove you to be interested in
Darko 1:37:08
that and we found our bin in 2014 at the time he was because you know it was a lack of that kind of music I would say you know it was quite interesting because you know there was no bands like side effects that I wanted to hear so I never thought I would be a musician or I would be you know singer because of the you know this rock and roll police or you know programming police or whatever call it you know, they send you my standard is very much like severe and there was really mean Yamaha Yamaha standard rock but that is very specific, you know, and I really tell
Host 1:38:03
us what it was I think most listeners don't know what early 2000s me and my rock was so so tell us what the climate was
Darko 1:38:08
okay, it was only basically in the 80s Rock You know, it was most of the rock bands are most of the rock band were playing 80s rock, like kind of 90% of music cover songs but we call them copies copy songs because
Host 1:38:30
like what like what kind of what kind of songs were being copied
Darko 1:38:33
like mainly against the roses Bon Jovi scorpions and Metallica stuff like that. And you know like some of the so called rock stars became famous with the cover songs of this like this pop band called Michael Michael lens to walk which is like I mean, you're my rock fans are really much into the web into like, this rock ballot. And also having song too you know, it was it was that there was the combination of ad rock song back then. And there was no alternative there was a few alternative bands but the they cannot make they cannot do very well because of the lack of I mean, lack of consumer.
Host 1:39:31
Right I remember hearing that I came to Myanmar in 2003 for the first time, and I remember constantly hearing this Burmese music and like the song sounds really familiar and then realizing it was a copy of something and April of Levine I remember in the early 2000s April Levine was huge in Myanmar right?
Darko 1:39:47
Yes, yes. Do you remember the die? Yeah. Yeah, very huge. I mean, there was like a covers of green days to like the mainly the cover songs from You know, every every popular songs in the West like from MTV or you know, like like people top 20s so that would be the you know that kind of sounds cool
Host 1:40:14
right? And so this was not what you want to do you wanted to listen to something different so you made something different so what did you What were you looking for that you weren't finding and what did you end up creating?
Darko 1:40:26
Yes, I was I was looking for freedom actually freedom through music, you know, freedom to say whatever I wanted to say. So then I found I was really into grant music back then crunching on Sukkot, alternative bands. And then then, like, I was into the 90s 90s rock, you know, so I listen to bands such as, you know, Soundgarden, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and all these late 90s that you know, like, and then and then I got to know punk rock. And I went back to punk rock, attitude and everything. So punk really influenced me. And, you know, grunge bands. And punk band influenced me, because it was not an art, it was not mainly about, you know, how polish, how you can polish your song, or how you can make your song great, or how you how, how, how beautifully, you can play your solo stuff like that, but mainly focus on about your voice. So since then, I found a way to express myself. So it was more about being who, who we are, and trying to show the warm who we are, and what I, you know, what I have in mind, and what I want to say, but at that time, it was like, you needed to hide a lot of your messages so that, you know, my music back then was not understandable easily because, you know, because the main message was hidden so well, you know, it was it may you know what I mean? Because at the time
Host 1:42:14
that was that, Was that fun or annoying to have to hide it like that? Yeah.
Darko 1:42:17
But still, I mean, you can feel it The music is no, it actually is a universal music, university language, though, you know, it's not very lyrical, it's more more about making wise and, you know, you I found a way to release my anger, with guitar like heavily distorted guitar, and you know, like, fast paced drums and screaming vocal. So that's how I could express myself well, and it made me It made us be good. And there was there were people who could relate to it. So that's how I started the band. And there was not many other bands like that back then. Because like, you know, everybody tried to sound like other people. Maybe some Bahama Samson was also like new bands, just like you were saying, like, some bands were trying to sound like a V Levine or trying to sound like, you know, I'm not like bass kid, or, you know, you know, like, I don't know, I mean, I tried to sound like other people are not my thing. So I found a way to, you know, plan in all my influences, rather than trying to sound like others. So I just like, you know, like, do whatever we want to do. And it gave me freedom. I found my freedom in music and whenever I was rehearsing, and whenever I'm in the studio with a band, I found my freedom day.
Host 1:43:42
That's great. And I think I think we talked some time before the interview about some concert at the American Center that we were both out that influenced you. Can you remind me of the memory it's not i'm not quite clear on when that was.
Darko 1:43:55
Yeah, it was quite a lot of work in there was not like, you know, going to soundcloud or Spotify and streaming, you know, I mean, when I saw a photo, or or a picture of a band, with the interesting look in there, like a very old magazine. And then I would go to a, you know, some music stores that we could, you know, duplicate the cassette tapes from the original that was imported from Thailand. But you know, like, Western music was not censored back then actually, because like, there was not many people who who would listen to this music. It was a bit conservative back then. So you know, I mean, it was open, there was just just nobody knew it. So whenever we've we found interest in ban in the magazines and I would go to those music stores and give them my Maxell tape on maybe TDK tape and let them duplicate it and then I will have to Go back there, after a week, believe it or not, after a week, it would take a week, and then I would go there and get it, get the tape and I will play at my home and then I will share it with my friends. And then later I would take the tape to a tea shop, you know, back then that my, my, during my, you know, teenager time, the tea shop tradition was big, and it was it was like going to a club because we did not have any club back then. And then I would go to some t shirts who like where we can play this rock, rock music and rock and roll or like very heavy music, there are only a couple of tea shops in my neighborhood that is called that will tolerate that kind of you know, music. So I will go there with the light whenever whenever I got new tapes, and then this where we hang out with friends. So I will you know standard nine but not a standard lie, you know, I would I would give my tapes to the tea shop owner and there will be a couple of other tapes. You know, we will have them take turns, and then they will play but if it was to rock and if it's too heavy, and then they will meet they will just play one or two songs and they will give you a tape back. So that was the kind of like rock and roll community thing. It's a T shirt that was a T shirt. You know thing?
Host 1:46:30
That's great. I mean, if we weren't in the middle of this crisis, we'll just be great to have a whole conversation about the history and development of different music forms in Myanmar, because it sounds like you're one of the real old G's. You're one of the real old rockers out there that they can they can track the beginning of some of the original music to all the development that's happened in the past, you know, 15 years or so afterwards?
Darko 1:46:51
Yeah. Do you want to talk about that?
Host 1:46:55
I mean to be Yeah, yeah. But I'd love to, I think it'd be a good break for all of us with the current crisis we're all living through. Yes. So tell us more. Tell us. Tell us a bit more about how, as you started the work that you were doing, and you were trying to get out of this copycat thing, how the local music scene started to shift and change after that.
Darko 1:47:14
Sure. I mean, when we formed the band, no, it was in 2004. That Numa Numa underground movement began in 2002 I would say so after two years of that I was inspired by a few bands such as antibiotics. And the answer The answer was more popular and more acceptable to the audience. But antibiotics is a was anybody who was more underground and you know, less acceptable to the audience back then. But I was you know, they are my friends too, you know, and I got inspired and we found the band. And after that, you know, during that time, you know, we the way we we rose up was like you know, we needed to organize our own concerts because you know, like no one would call us to play and we had the band you know, I mean the way we had the band was very lucky because no i did not have my guitar because I wrote songs with my acoustic guitar that I got from my father. And my grandma didn't have any drum set and he learned how to play drums with the books that it was quite classic because that's that was how every drummer learned to play back that you know, and I mean when we went to a concert you know, I had my guitar picks and the drummer has that sticks and we did not have any guitars and we share the guitars that was rented by the organizer of the concert so maybe if the if there was like four or six or 10 bands, we share the same guitars and we play the same ends but you know we went there very excited with the you know, like you know, songs in our heads and with the right passion in our hearts that's it That was it. That was how we roll and some of the years it was only two concerts the whole year we It was a very tough time but still you know, we will practice a lot a lot that we were the band that practice a lot even though there was no concert because it was that's the way I learned from the you know, UK punk bands, actually, because, you know, I read about them and you know, like, my punk rock is not about you know, scale pretty much. It's more about the spirit and attitude. So They just like, you know, play it again and again and again until they master their own songs. And that's how I learned to play too, you know, so we play the same songs again and again and again until we are so tight. And we became the tightest band in the sea. And, and also we are like, you know, there were not a lot of bands that survive from that time to until now. So, we are very good at not giving up. We are very persistent, you know, and not giving up is the spirit of rock and roll I would say but I mean nowadays not many rock and roll best do that, you know, like they were split up after two years. I
Host 1:50:45
yeah, so I think it'd be really great to listen to a sample of what some of that early music sounded like. So let's go ahead and listen to one track now. Yeah. Alright, so that gave something of an idea of how the sound was back then. What was it like for you listening to that remembering your early style or contrasting with where you are now and what were you trying to express in general at that early time in your young life in the band?
Darko 1:54:21
Yeah, as as far as I can recall back then, you know? Yeah, it was the song's called secret. It was actually now I can totally relate to it. It gives me goosebumps right now because you know, I, at that time, I wanted to talk about it. And they like it was like, there was hidden because the whole thing. The whole thing happened. It was like it was the question about like, Who did that? You know who did this this whole thing to the country actually, but in no way You know I did not write anything about the country it was it was called secret you know so so and then and then the chorus goes like you know like you can you can ask me after all you know mean when you can come ask me after is over all one is over you know you can ask me one is over there was the main course thing because then I can I can tell you I go who did that happen who did this horrible thing or anything so, it was it was like very general and you know it was it was very vague It was very vague in terms of meaning but now I can totally recall that I was young I was scared to talk about the serious issue it was about the military actually everybody hated military back then and nobody dared to talk about it I was one of them too and I was afraid that I could be arrested you know I could be put to jail so I was secretly trying to express myself so it made me feel good when I like I played the songs on stage you know it makes me feel good even though the right people do not get it but still you know, I I know what was it about and now I also remember the time like, around like 2015 360 70 and when when the political songs are not censor and when we could express in when I was doing things with Tony Davis Newmar where we travel across Myanmar and and you know, like doing workshops to write music that where they address the issues whenever they want to address them so rather and that's where we could do it and then and at some point I revisit to that song and I was so ashamed that you know, I was so secretive back then I was so scared to talk about it. I was young but that I was ashamed compared to the young people around like you know 20 1617 you know, whether you're so courageous to like use you know, hip hop music to address the issue directly with their you know, strong walls and strong winds and everything you know, they could talk things openly and but back in 2004 I was like yeah, I needed to hide it.
Host 1:57:30
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that i was i was thinking that as you were talking that you were even back then in 2004 you were taking a risk to try to express this this criticism that you wanted over the military and of frustration of the society you were living in and you even though you hit it very deeply and actually the song is called secret. You This is what you were expressing which was even above and beyond what many of your peers were doing at the time? How would you contrast what you were doing as an Artist as a Young Artist at that time in 2004 or several years after in that period with how you're seeing Generation Z artists behaving today in 2021
Darko 1:58:14
Oh yeah, so there was a very awkward moment with communication with Gen Z with me because now I'm also I'm in touch with like many younger generations of musicians and come to my work and they are very outgoing very open open direct and in the beginning, I try to tell them to be careful and to start you know, using their security measures when when they are doing the protest and also they want to join the revolution but they didn't get it or maybe maybe they saw me maybe maybe they saw me in a different way like you know maybe I was too scared or something like that maybe I was too cautious because nobody wanted to be careful with that because like everybody was going out and doing shit and posting there I know it evolved involvement in the progress on Facebook and everyday so there was quite a difference I would say I'm not sure if that's what you're asking.
Host 1:59:24
Yeah, just about the difference in vibe between one young artists 1520 years ago and one young artists today
Darko 1:59:33
Yeah, but now is now I mean, if you were talking about after coup situation now is that different time before coup. It was more about like, you know, yeah, I mean, you could talk about it and then there was a divide between like coup and non coup because of, you know, severe censorship and self censorship and Our brains, there was like part of the group like, there was one group who, who believed, who believed, like, you know, like mixing or steering like political view and making ours once again. And there was a small group of young artists or young people who are really who who are really radical. And who wants to, you know, push the limits on what we can talk and what we cannot talk. And according to the Burmese culture, young people in general, were, I mean, before the coup, actually, you know, because of our culture, because of the Burmese conservative culture, young people's views, and they are young people's opinions were not acknowledged and taken seriously, you know, taken into consideration, anything, you know, like, Burmese culture is very tough on young people and their opinions, and they say, definitely, so, you know, like, I mean, no one really cares about their opinion, or whatever they say, no one cares, that's one part. And maybe because of that, like, No, they don't, they don't want to, you know, try too hard, expressing themselves. So they just want to, you know, like, some of them just want to be famous. So who for as this is, like, very hard to, for us, it was very hard to understand because, like, we were fighting so hard to have the chance to, you know, speak our mind and to express our self you know, what I mean? So, for them, like, once they got the chance to say whatever they wanted, and I only a few exercise their rights, you know, so we were pushing it too hard to, you know, to use their rights for freedom of expression. It was like, yeah, maybe, you know, like, your mom was like, expanding this human rights territories. And, you know, they were, we were fighting for it. So we were part of, we were part of the game when we were trying to exercise our freedom of expressions through music, and film and other channels.
Host 2:02:29
Right, in addition to music, you've also done activism throughout your time in the country that turning tables, I know that turning tables is not is not functioning today is many things are not given the current crisis playing out. But can you share a bit about what this organization does and what your involvement in it is?
Darko 2:02:52
Telling tables numa brings people together through this creative activism. And we are also like, I mean, what we've been doing, I mean, what we were doing, it actually is like, giving facilities to the young people who never got access to this, like creative means. Such as like, traveling to, you know, remote places, and did music workshops. And I gave them an opportunity to, you know, like, write music together with other people. And also record there on the site. Like, you know, whenever we go, we brought this, like, we brought recording suites. And we would set up a temporary recording studio in the studio or at some of the, you know, buildings that we could rent, or, you know, we would just like, let them ride music. And then we will let them record the next day and we will put out a record or we will release a record later. So we've been doing we're doing this, like our flagship project is called voice of the youth. No, since 2015, and until, until COVID, you know, it's 2015 to 2019. We've been doing the highlight year long project called voice of the user, it includes like, you know, I see like, conducting a series of workshops, and also releasing an album and song contest called voice of the youth and also a music festival at the end of the year. So in every December, there will be a big music festival called voice of the use of where we put on us, sorry. So, so where we put on a lot of like, young artists with the voice. So who can dare to say these things that where other people could not dare to say. And also we will expose like this, like rising stars and stuff like that. So we've been doing a lot of things, pushing the limits on freedom of expression since 2015.
Host 2:05:25
That's really great, that's really an awesome way to give back and looking at your own career coming from, you know, this song secret that we heard before, and how hard it was for you to be able to express yourself given the climate then and how things have changed. And that now you're in the position of something of an elder that is able to guide other people through this process and support them in all these ways. And that's, that's really fantastic. And I really want to thank you for the time that you spent here, it was really great learning all this stuff, and seeing how it all comes together with your music and your activism. And of course, now we're in the crisis, all of our best wishes are with you and with everything you're doing and how you're continuing to give back and to support them. I certainly hope that creatives that are listening to this will be inspired as well. And before we leave, why don't you tell us what song of yours we'll be hearing from Yeah.
Darko 2:06:23
Okay, yeah, thanks. I want to play this song called. We be alright. So I want to give some positivity, you know, I mean, Jamar has been going through the dark time, and I hope that we will arrive in the end. When you called my name from the side Did you phone on? Maybe we were somehow connected.
Host 2:07:12
Thank you for taking the time to listen to this show. I understand that this is an enormously difficult time for many people these days, myself included. And just the mere fact of staying informed is helping to keep a focus on this pertinent issue. And the only way that we can do our job of continuing to provide this content at this very critical time is through the support of generous donors, listeners like yourselves. So if you found this episode of value and would like to see more shows like this on the current crisis, please consider making a donation to support our efforts. Either monthly pledges or one time donations are fully appreciated. And all funds go immediately to the production of more episodes like this one. Thank you deeply in advance and best wishes at this time. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. every cent goes immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. Donations go to support such causes as a civil disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guests you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website, which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me slash better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and cash app. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts, or email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r bu r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration.