Transcript: Episode #337: The Start of A Path
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Speaker 1 00:00
We are used to hear a voice, and sometimes we are like little children, and we really like stories. When we read stories or listen to stories, what happens is that we make the stories our home, we can embellish, create a little bit of percentage, use a little bit of imagination and make the stories very personal.
Speaker 2 00:49
Whether one is listening to this in Myanmar or from outside the country, we know it is a very difficult time for those of us who hold the golden land and its people in our hearts. In trying times like these, we can all use a bit more care and compassion in our lives. So on behalf of the team here at Insight, Myanmar, I would like to say in the traditional way meta is offered, may you be free from physical discomfort, may you be free from mental discomfort, may You not meet dangers or enemies, May you live a peaceful and happy life, and May all beings be free and come out of suffering. And with that, let's move on to the show.
Host 02:25
I'm pleased for this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast to be joined by u jagera, and really looking forward to digging into his life, spiritual life, his long standing interactions with Burma. And I think this is a really special opportunity for our audience to be treated by hearing about some experiences in Burma in a way that we don't ordinarily do on this platform. So this is a long time coming, and I'm so pleased to invite you, jagrat, to speak on this platform.
U Jagara 02:59
Thank you very much. It's also my pleasure just to share the experiences and the gratitude I have for the country and the people over there.
Host 03:08
So one of the things I'm just I really can't wait to get into your story, and we won't get into it yet, because we'll start at the beginning. But just to give a preview for listeners that don't know so much about you, you've spent so many years of your life in Burma, and this really stands out because there are foreign meditators or monastics who come and spend, you know, nine months or six months, or come back, you know, a few times in their lifetime, to spend a month here and there and just get these kind of touches with the country. And your story really stands out because of really the amount of years you've spent over the course of decades in your lifetime, where you've gone, who you've met, that it's just a much deeper dive, more integrated experience that you've been able to have. So if we could just kick off and learn about your early life and where you're from and your family upbringing and the forces or conditions that led to your first interest and experiences with spirituality.
U Jagara 04:05
Well, so talking about childhood, like a like I grew up in, I was born in 12th year, you know, it's a small town in Quebec, and when I was 12. Then, you know, this, these small towns over there are kind of sweet, you know, with the forest all around and very it's the life is quite natural. And my parents also were very kind and saying that the children were growing properly. And with, you know, a good kind of education, but mostly a lot of love and good sense, you know. So at the age of 12, then my family, like my father, especially, wanted to change. He shifted a promotion in his business, and I. He moved to Montreal. This is the big city in Quebec. And then he is a businessman or, you know, an administrator. And then he was in charge before he with a small, well, a small, you know, covering the whole Quebec financial institution that was giving and supporting credit for enterprises. So at some point this company got bought, you know, with this assessment, with it got bought with by a bigger company. And then we shift to Montreal because of that. So the shift actually was quite kind of radical when we are 12. And you know, everything is very different. So from the age of 12, then I was in that bigger city and private school. And you know, it was, it was not obvious. So, so this was the first years over there. Then eventually I changed schools, and then I grew up also, you know, just as a teenager, but for sure, when we reach the age of especially, you know, especially around 15 and 16 and 17, you really ask, what's the meaning of life? And you see, you know, we are all looking for some, you know, some purpose and some explanation and explanation of paradox and a lot of that. So I was in, like every one of my friends, but I was in that situation. And we do all kinds of things, you know, at the high school in these days, you know, drugs, we try all kinds of things that are available. So when I was still, you know, I was a lot of I was very curious of what was happening in outside our little nation, outside our circle of friends, and I was interested in traveling. So when I was 15, then I went to other parts of Canada. Then when I was 16, then I went to to Spain and France, and I checked down to Morocco. And one of the reason is that, you know, 1617, you just, I was, you know, the ashes was very expensive over there. It was something very rare. So I thought, No, I'm going to go to the source. I went over there just for No, just not to have limits into the possibility of consumption. So after a kind of freaky cool, you know, not too much extreme, you know, of a summer, well, then I came back, you know, like I was 16 and almost 17, and still, at that time, my interest and my curiosity was pushing me more to the east, because by meeting Europeans, young freaks and hippies. And you know, the these young people in these days, were traveling to Afghanistan, and they were going to India and Asia, and then they were coming back and with all kinds of, you know, new ways of being in life. So that was triggering my interests. And at that time, also, you know, I have an elder brother, of course, I have also a younger brother. We did, eventually, we did a lot of studies in religion, especially in Buddhism. But my older brother, who was one year older than me, then when he was 17, you know, just the year before he left, also with the same kind of existential question. And then he had gone to Europe, and he tried all the way to India, and then he had a one year kind of break sabbatical, year before the university or college he left because he was completely well, you know, anxiety and, you know, just lack of meaning. And it was a sure, it was a search. So he was supposed to come back in September. So, because he was coming back in September, then I also came back, you know, at the end of the summer, because my parents told me, you know, if we give you the permission to go to Europe and, you know, Spain and Morocco, you have to come back for your high school or finish your high school. So because of that, I came back, but mostly to see and to speak with my other brother. So when I met him in September, he said, Oh, I found, I really found what I was looking for. And then he said that, if you are interested during the Christmas holiday. I'm going to show it to you. And it's a meditation practice, and it's kind of, this is, this is, this is what I was looking for. So when it came to the Christmas vacation, then we went together in, you know, in the countryside. And so he taught me for about 10 days meditation. So we were in silence, and mostly Well, you know, kind of not speaking. And then he was not understanding so much about what he was doing, but he knew how to do it the practice also, just by looking at him, the way that he was sitting, and, you know, the discipline we had with the schedule that we had set up for ourselves. Then after a few days of this type of environment and the practice that the mind really wake up, and then you come to understand the potential and the dimensions that the mind is offering to us. So for me, it was a big discovery. And for of course, at the end of the retreat, then I came back and was still at the high school, and I was completely, I was quite changed and very interested to to know more about the source of this wonderful type of practice. So in these days, there was nothing about there was nothing on Buddhism, you know, in French Canada, in Montreal, and not much, you know, with the almost nothing. So I read books and all kinds of things, you know, on yoga, on Taoism, on religion, and of different sorts, and also especially about Buddhism. And one the things that were available about Buddhism was mostly from the Tibetan, you know, the Tibetans Dalai Lama and all of that. There was also a school of Zen, you know, with Alan Watts. So anyway, you know, my interest was really keen. So the next year, I continue to practice, just as my brother told me, and then by the readings. And so I was quite, quite devoted to that. And the following year, I wanted to have a real teacher, so I asked my brother, where could I find someone like that? We found one of his, of his friend that he had met, also in India. And then we heard that the Mr. Hover engineer from California was had started to teach, and he had been, you know, given the permission, encouraged by back in so I found him, and then he said that he was heading up for Europe, and if I was interested, I could join this course in Switzerland. So over there, he was giving 210 days in a row, and I was welcome. So, so, you know, there was a visitation. My parents helped me to pay for the ticket and and then I ended up there. So from there, it's just again, you know, when I came back, then I wanted to go more. Was ready to to investigate and to know more about that the source, where is it coming from? And then my brother was saying, No, it's coming from, you know, from Buddhism, and over there, like in India, where he had gone, then he practiced it. But also he had gone to visit Sri Lanka, in the end, went to he had gone to some monasteries, and he said, No, over there you have people monks, and that's all they do the whole day. They just practice meditation. And one of his friend, a good friend that he had met in India, was from Malaysia, and that friend, he was telling my brother that when he was to come back to Malaysia, then he would go in the forest in Thailand and become a monk and practice, you know, just in the forest. So then I thought, Wow. You know, some people can give, you know. Years, and they can give their time, Oh, for that. So the interest was really there. But although I was leaning towards, you know, traveling more, and then maybe, you know, taking the ordination and practicing in these places, my parents and also my brother was saying, no, no, now you are too young just continue your studies and go to university. My parents were very keen that I, you know, attend to university. And so after my, you know, the practice gave me more of a discipline, and I became a little bit more serious. So the topic, I was not much interested in many things, just as a career, as a profession, I didn't know what I wanted to do, really. So because, I guess because some of my friends were professional musicians, like the elder brothers of my friends. Then I was inspired, you know? And I thought, Oh, well, maybe here can study music, right? And there was a music, the music, you know, there is a musical Department of Music in in the university. So, you know, I studied at college, and then I gave my full time to study music, and together with the music, especially at the university, then I took some courses in philosophy. But at the age of 24 after four years of university, I thought, No. I thought that this is not, I don't want to be a professional musician, is going to be too challenging. And then I thought, now the aspiration I have, you know, I was looking at the Atlas the world at last, and seeing pictures of, you know, Southeast Asia. And I said, Well, I want to discover and go around these things. And I had also started to go to IMS, you know, in 75 when it opened with the Jack confe and Joseph Goldstein. So this gave me, you know, broaden again, my my the possibilities and alternatives that I could give as a direction to my life, because there you have people who have gone, you know, to various places and tried various types of meditation. Some of these people had gone to Asia also. So you met a few monks who had come back from Southeast Asia. I spoke with them. And there was Jack confield, who had just written his book, you know, about the living Buddhist master. So the book itself, I divorce, you know, I don't know if it's still popular, but it's quite good, the information that you find there. So, so when I was 24 I asked Jose Goldstein and Jack confield If it was okay to go and take the ordination, you know, I was not sure how you will manage as a livelihood. Do you need to pay for your food? And so they tell they told me, No, no, no. People are very happy just to feed you and to support you. So as a Westerner, it's kind of surprising, you know, so but anyway, I went there and then, before ordaining, they suggest to me, you know, they suggested that if I wanted to ordain, then I will be better off to ordain with Mars. And at that time, he had just passed by IMS, you know, in 79 so they said, no, no, you just you can visit all these other places. And when you want to ordain, then go at the in Burma and ordain with mass. He said, I went, I took the book, you know, and I did all most of the monasteries and meditation teachers that we see in that book of cornfield. Then I went to see them, and, you know, just to see what was going on there and which type of teaching that they were giving. So eventually, you know, after some months in Thailand as a lay person, then I went to Burma, and directly I went to the maasi Sasani, and I ordained. And this is all, what year was that? It was in ‘79.
Host 19:41
All right, so that was 1979 that you find yourself going from your growing interest in meditation spirituality in North America and through the help of Kornfield and Goldstein, end up in Burma under Mahasi saya that 1979 Certainly an interesting time to be in Burma, and thank goodness you were allowed then as a foreigner, because there are periods when that was not possible. But this, I imagine, is a very new experience for you as a young man, a young Western man, growing up in very different environment and conditions. So just as far as like culture and religion, society, people you know, even like climate and food, etc. What do you remember about arriving in Burma the first time and what that transition was like?
U Jagara 20:29
Well, you know, first I started, like with my brother, I started in 72 and then I practiced as a lay person over there in Canada. And then in 75 I went to IMS and met Jack confer and Joseph Goldstein. And only then, then in 79 then in 79 I made a move, and I try and I travel to Asia. So I arrive in Thailand first. So of course, like you when the plane open the doors, you see, wow, you pick up a different type of of, you know, temperature, temperature and ambience. You know, it's very humid and very, very hot. So anyway, this was the first encounter. But when you are young, you don't care so much about the heat. So for me, it was not a problem, you know, I was healthy and so curious, and it was so interesting. Everything was new. This is this is it. So I traveled in Thailand for about three months as a lay person, and then just, you know, meeting people and just having a good time. And sometimes, like this type of trip, you know, for three months was including, you know, at least half of the time, if not most of the time, visit two monasteries. I was, I went all around Thailand to see the different monasteries and the different teachers over there. So well, it's just, I remember just, you know, being there then from Canada. It's the topical climate is so different than remember writing to my sister, and they say, Well, you know, this type of plant that you grow in in your room here, it can grow up to five or six feet or 10 feet. And, you know, this is just a joke. So all the exotic flowers and birds that you find in the, you know, in books or in the zoo, then they are just all around so, so that was, that was interesting. And then when I went to, you know, when I went to to Burma, then at the center there, it didn't take long, you know, to become a monk. It was very easy, and I had a recommendation letter from Jack and Joseph. So Marcy said, just accepted me just right away. And after two weeks, I ordained. So, of course, you know, you just watch your mind and you watch your body and you just do constantly meditation. So I remember, I remember the first weeks, you know, like the type of imagination, the type of things that the mind will go through, was the amazing type, the amazing recipe, recipes and a mixture of food that you can have, you know, you can put tananas in your chicken and coconut in in this and, you know, so my mind was full of recipe. I even wrote down, I had a little card, a little booklet, and I wrote down recipe. So, of course, after a month, and, you know, I got rid of that, because everything was, you know, everything was, was what it was. I didn't need to remember it so much. But as for adaptation, I think it was not easy, like over there, like lucky when it was in Thailand, it was not a problem. Because, you know, as a lay person, you can buy fruits and you can buy all kinds of things that that is, that is good for you. But as a monk, you just, you just go on with what people are giving you. So nevertheless, although at the monastery, the food was kind of luxurious, I remember one, one American, you know, good meditator. You had come also from IMS, and when you arrive, I had been there for already two months. And when you arrived, after a couple of weeks, the teacher asked him how he was doing and and then he said that, oh, well, I'm doing fine, but I am so afraid to gain weight. Ate because the food is so delicious. But still, you know, for the Western body, it's not in the long run, it's not easy, especially so much rice. You eat a lot of rice. So for, you know, I just got sick, so after three months, kind of got sick with, you know, constipation and all these types of problems. And then I wanted to, like, you know, in this during that time, it was not possible to travel in Burma, and only Massey was able to extend the week visa that was able, that was available for the foreigners, tonku also was tonku saya do also, you know, at the center they call also extend. But no one knew so much about this. Sayadaw was living in North of Burma. So when the three months came, at the end, I said, I told them, I said that I wanted to go around and, you know, visit the country a little bit. And I asked them to renew my visa. And he said, No, no, we are not going to renew your visa if you don't stay here. So you can stay here, do your meditation, and then it's fine, but we don't allow you to go around. They were saying, no, no, this is the hot season, and it's very dangerous, like there is a lot of dust and it's very hot, and, no, it's not proper for a foreigner. So I think there were some, you know, some political, kind of societal difficulties over there. So didn't want foreigners to to go around. So what I did is I went to Sri Lanka. So in Sri Lanka, the food is much easier for for me, for a Westerner, I think you have a lot of, you know, milk product like curds and a lot of fruits on in Burma, you didn't have much fruits, and a lot of the food is more suitable for a Westerner. So, so then I got, I adapted myself quite well over there, but, but it takes some time, you know, at least one or two years, to adapt properly. And I think, you know, I mean, all of us, we know the challenges that are present to our body for this simple thing. You know, just a diet is not obvious.
Host 27:36
Right? And so going back to those three months in Burma with Mahasi Sayadaw, if you can just describe your impressions of Mahasi. This is a great teacher and scholar meditator, monk in Burma who's long since passed away. And so the opportunity to be able to hear a first hand account of him as a personality, as an individual, as a teacher, as a meditator, that's getting rarer and rarer with the time that passes. So as far as your memory as a young man, can bring us back to what stands out to who Mahasi was as a person.
U Jagara 28:09
Well, you know the foreigners that were going there, like we were about 1010, foreigners, you know, from Malaysia, and there was two other Americans, and then one English man, and we had a translator, and our meditation teacher was not Massey Sayadaw himself. We will meet from time to time, I see but it was kind of rare. And then what I remember from him is like he was just he was so cool. People called him a corpse, but, but his presence was something very special. And when you are in His presence, you feel that there is nobody there. It's the room is filled with kind of atmosphere, very, very special. So I think this is all that can say about him. But also, I think he had, he had a sense of humor, because I saw him again when, like a as I mentioned, you know, I went to Sri Lanka, and in Sri Lanka, I stayed also in a branch of the Masi Sayadaw monastery. And then after a year, he came for a visit over there. And then I met him again. And although he doesn't smile so much, he is a kind of funny you see that he has a very subtle cold humor, just with the small little words that can be funny if you catch them.
Host 29:55
Right. So now you describe leaving Burma, going to Sri Lanka. You talked about some of the. Differences being the food just a bit easier for the Western diet. What were some other impressions that come out to leaving one Buddhist country to another, and how your experience was impacted by that?
U Jagara 30:19
Well, definitely, the cultures are different. So in Burma, like Thailand, also the type of, know, the type of people are more like, you know, more like Tibetans or Chinese, a little bit with the Indian mix. Also the striking contrast when you arrive in Sri Lanka is that people are quite dark and they look like, I remember my first impression when I was there, you know, just arriving in Sri Lanka, you you look at, you know, in the market and in the bus stand people, they look like pirates, you know, like I had seen the films of pirates with people, you know, missing a leg, and then with the parrot on the, on the, on the shoulder, then with long hair. So this was my first impression of you, the singhase people. But very soon, you know you, you, learn how sweet they are, especially the way they talk. The way they talk they say, you know, like singhale, these people, they they talk English like they sing a song. It's very interesting and very it's quite beautiful. Their language is beautiful. And the way that they are expressing themselves in English, also is kind of quite original.
Host 31:48
And so then, how does your Buddhist practice proceed now that you're in Sri Lanka?
U Jagara 31:54
Well, in Sri Lanka, then I, you know, I just did the idea that you have when, when you want to become a monk from coming from the west, then you think that the monks are just practicing meditation all the time in meditation centers or in the forest or so. This is what you think of. What is a monk, full time meditation. So this is what we add as an approach. And I remember there was also one. There were two Canadians at that, my that meditation monastery in Sri Lanka, and we became friends, although they were in this speaking, and that was a French speaking we made, we became friends so, so we were kind of like my friend, you know, he still is still still. I still have contact with him, like the knife, like now I am living close to him, you know, in in BC, Canada. And then we remember these days, and we our our other friends, it was saying that nowadays, you know, the young Westerners who go to to Asia to practice, they don't have the killer instinct that we had with the seriousness and intensity we were giving to the meditation. So it was high enough, very intense all the time. You know, there was no distraction, no phone or even letters were quite rare. So of course, you know, like, you can go on like that, but after a while, the after a while, there needs to be more of an adjustment, because, like, this is what happened, you know, after a while, like six months, maybe a year, then by by meeting people, and some people took me around. So after some times, I realized that the monks practice was actually their life. So it was not only in the meditation centers, but their life. It was the monastic. It was a monastic life. The way of living as a monk was, what was, you know the key. You know the continuity everything that you are doing. And you know, not only in meditation centers or sitting in your on your cushion. So this is what I learned. You know how to live as a monk, especially when you know, like the in the meditation centers I went, they stayed there the first year in Sri Lanka. You know, it was mostly meditation centers. But after a year or two, I started to go around Sri Lanka, and I settled in the mountains of in the high country of. Sri Lanka, in a tea plantation where I had gone to see a friend there in a small, very small hermitage. And then we had to feed ourselves by going on alms round. And then this changed the whole practice to go on arms around as a monk. And it's kind of it gives, it gives another dimension to to the practice itself, in the way that you feel, you know, and you reflect that people are supporting you, people are feeding you. And then when you go on your arms around and collect your food. Then there is also the importance of keeping a very high state of mind that people are expecting from you somehow. So, you know, this type of human interaction was uplifting for both, you know, the monastic and also the lay person. So it was, you know, it's an activity that is, you know, it's almost a must in the, you know, in a spiritual journey, to keep connected with people. And also, you know, in Buddhism, they say the Buddha didn't permit, you know, it didn't so much encourage monks to be or meats and to store food. So although people, you know, monastics could store food and, you know, just go on without, without going for arms around for for a month or something, even though this is possible, then going every day on the pinna Pat, you know, on Amazon was, it was an exhaustion, you know, it was something commanded by the Buddha. So now I see, now we see why, you know, now we see why, because it's forcing us to to be in contact with, well, with other living beings, you know, and not to get, not to get caught up in your, you know, your personal fantasies and traumas and all of that stories.
Host 37:17
That's that's really interesting, just to pause at that reflection, because it's also making me think about the experience of a Westerner doing intensive retreats or practicing meditation, maybe in their own their local Sangha, and in a Western country and and trying to develop spiritually that way. And so when you look at the development of spiritual faculties, especially in the Buddhist sense, what do you feel is missing from not being able to partake in the ALMS rounds? And we should mention the arms around our reciprocal so you don't have to be a monk necessarily to to be able to benefit from the experience. You could be on either side of that giving, and you're then taking part in this communal expression and and connected experience. And so for someone trying to develop in spirituality, certainly we don't want to say that you that, that you have some barrier, impediment, that you you can't grow spiritually if you're not in a place that has an arms round. But what is it that the alms round brings to the practitioner on either side of that equation that they wouldn't necessarily get from being in a spiritual community outside of the Buddhist country,.
U Jagara 38:26
What they will get, I think, is a sense of no self. But also, you know, the principle that we see there is the importance of interaction. So it's all about communication, not communication, but relationship. So, as you mentioned, you know, like, although we, you know, some of us, or some people cannot. Those who are serious practitioners cannot go on, the pin on, you know, arms around, because they are not monastic. Still, the quality of relationship is possible, the relationship you have, not only with people and food, but your relationship in with life in general. So I think this is the thing that we can learn by going on arms round, also the arms round, really, brings that aspect of pronunciation, that you have nothing you depend on people. The only thing you have is just a ball and a robe, and there is no tomorrow, and you know you are just everything becomes so alive because you never know what will happen in the future, but also in the moment. You are just you have to empty yourself of all your worries. And you know just by it's, it's a complete letting go. Sometimes, if you if your mind is not like that, then. Then when people are offering to you, then you get it from the people. Because when people are giving, then they are also letting go, and they have a lot of Saddam you know, their faith and their inspiration is very strong when they are giving. So for them, whether the monk is, you know, very highly spiritually advanced or not. Although it matter for them, it doesn't matter so much. It is the symbol. Also, what it awakens in people who are giving is the, you know, the the inspiration of something else, then worldly conditions of life and death, and, you know, eating and getting sick, and, you know, getting to medicine and then dying and all of that. Then there is something else. And the monk, you know, is representing that symbol. So this is what they are giving to all this is, this is aspect of the Dhamma. So it's their practice. They don't give necessarily to an individual, but to what the the you know, not the project, but to what the what they see, what in what that person is representing. So they send you back that image. So people are going to you, you know, they go on the floor, and then they salute you, and you know, they pay so much respect, and they give what, sometimes they cannot even eat themselves. So it's very impressive, because you receive, you know what you receive things that that is, well, it's kind of interesting.
Host 41:48
That's beautiful. And so then staying with your experiences in Sri Lanka, you had spent an extended period of time practicing instructions according to the Mahasi technique. And then you come to Sri Lanka, how did your practice change? What were you then practicing there?
U Jagara 42:06
Oh, well, you know, when I started, before I come to Massey, with that, I started to integrate and incorporate this Massey method. When I went to IMS in 75 so before was speaking, I was doing mostly the Goenka method and with hover also, this is Webu Khin. So I was quite dedicated to that, to that method of practice. And even when I was the master center, although I was practicing the way that they were telling me, you know, the background of the Webu Khin method was still there. So when I was in Sri Lanka, I was still dedicated to that. And when, you know, the first year that I was there, Goenka also came to Sri Lanka, and he gave his first course of meditation. So I joined that. I joined that course. And the following year, I went to India, and I started to go there almost yearly. During the winter, I was going there to spend two or three months and doing intensive practice to get Puri when they had opened the center. But otherwise, when, when I was coming back to Sri Lanka, then it was just the monk of life and the life of a monk. And I was lucky, you know, just to to have the freedom of living in an Hermitage and living also in a village without the this, the pressure of the community of monks, all that, you know, it was kind of freestyle in the place we where we were living in Sri Lanka. The person who had established it was a professor of university from Czechoslovakia in the 50s, or, you know, so that hermitage was full of books. And, you know, the library was fantastic. So we could just, you know, hang around and read a lot of books. And, you know, combine that with our practice, yeah, so we didn't have any obligation. The only obligation we had is, was to feed ourselves and to go on arms. Otherwise we just, we just practice and read and spoke, you know, with each other. Sometimes when we work together.
Host 44:31
That's interesting. So you had this really combined sense of practice from practicing different with different UPA Khin teachers, hover and Goenka, and then going with Mahasi sayada, then being in different monastic environments across Southeast Asia, having access to different books, peers that you're talking to that are along the spiritual journey with you, the wider monastic community. So it sounds like in this. Period of time, it was something of an experimentation, but not just a free flowing experimentation do whatever you want, obviously, but a kind of playfulness or creativity, but within a structure and within certain formats where you know where those lines are. Would that be correct to say, or how would you characterize it?
U Jagara 45:17
Yeah, I think, I think this is, this is quite correct, and this is somehow, you know, if we compare that to a Western situation, this is somehow the advantage of living over there in a tradition that has lasted for centuries. And then also the values they give to monasticism, is that when you are in robes, then you have to fit with the kind of behavior. And there is something that is expected from you. So it's a structure also that allows you to devote your time fully to the Dhamma. So this kind of situation is very is very positive, and also is very strengthening, because you know you when you go to sleep, that's the only thing you think about. When you wake up in the morning, that's the only thing you think about. So your old days are spent just investigating the Dhamma, and then you are supported by by the society also, and the society also sends you, sends you back the image that you are supposed to represent. So somehow, it's also helpful, you know, to wear the robes and to go with the precepts, because you know that when you are in that situation, then there are things that that is not suitable to do. Also there is a kind of restriction. But that restriction can sometimes, for some people, it's difficult. For me, it was easy, it was natural, but eventually that type of restriction is very is really putting your mind, and then also your your whole life in that in that part that allows you just to cook all the ingredients that you have been able to get from here and there. So you know, by reading and then by meeting all kinds of teachers and people who also are practicing different things. Then it comes to be yours also these years. It's, we could say, like, it's, you know, like the old lines or so, you know, there is a kind of maturity that that comes just by doing that, just by living simply and then spending your time with this as the as your main purpose, your main reason for for living.
Host 47:55
Another thing I'm thinking as I hear this, because we're talking a bit about the contrast between East and West, and also from kind of structured, intensive lay environment for meditation and and the monastic community, which is also different, as you said, one of your your misinformed biases, which I also had as a misinformed bias, and I think many in the West do before they know about monkhood, is that being a monk is simply, well, You just meditate all, all day, every day, every all minutes, every minutes. That's that's just the experience of being a monk. And no, it's not that. It's much more than much more richness than just the the formal aspect of sitting on a cushion and meditating, that's part of it. But there's much more that goes into it. And you're you're also, you're painting a contrast as well between this experience of being in a lineage or a practicing a certain technique, and the creativeness or playfulness of finding your of going through your own understanding of what you want to practice and what it means and how it aligns. And this reminds me of the words of actually someone. I don't know if you remember him. He met you many years ago and has referenced experiences with you and spent many years in Burma too. Is Australian man named Greg Kleiman, who was a monk for about 15 years in Burma and went through many different lineages and traditions there, as well as Thailand and Sri Lanka. And he uses the expression panning for gold. He talks about how you're always panning for gold as you're going through these different lineages and teachers and techniques, you're trying to gain the value and the benefit of what they're bringing. But you're also aware somewhat of, for lack of a better word, the propaganda or the the way that the mission is defined according to their own categories that you're trying. In his experience, he was trying not to buy into the overall message, but to pan for gold and just get the best of what those different traditions and messages had. Offer, while also using his critical faculties to align his own experience and practice as a monk and then as a late meditator into what worked for him and what and what, how his own spiritual practice would develop. I think this is an opportunity that one has in Buddhist countries in Southeast Asia, as well as being a monk and having the time to really devote to this experience, and I think this is also what contrasts to being a meditator in a Western environment, largely because you you don't have the plethora of opportunities to be able to learn and to grow and to absorb different ways of life and teachings you really kind of fit into a certain teacher or practice or methodology, and it's harder to find, I think, your own path within that messaging coming out.
U Jagara 50:49
It's interesting to see the tradition itself. So it's a tradition that has been kept alive for centuries in Asia. So of course, any tradition you know, get rigid and get formal and systematic, and, you know, become organized and political, politics and all of that. So the tradition is, as you say, you know, looking for gold. So the tradition is carrying a very deep message that is not necessarily obvious, like it's like all kinds of all the religions also have come to that one way, you know, where there is no nowhere else to go, in the sense that you just keep to the superficial. You don't go to the to the root, but definitely the tradition, the Buddhist tradition as still that living, that living, you know Dhamma, that living practice that helps you to connect with the essence of the teachings and the I think you know many Westerners also my myself included, when we when we arrive there, then we have a very big ideal of what is monastic, you know, what is monk or nun? And we project a lot, and it doesn't take very long to get quite disappointed, because the monks there, the nuns also, they are humans with, you know, with their weakness, and you know, of course, with their strength, but they are still human, and they are living in a tradition. So somehow, so you know, it becomes their job. So this is the this is the difficulties that that local monks are facing, in the sense that when they become monk, it becomes a profession, or they get the job, they get a temple, and then they just carry on a tradition, and they don't have the chance to, to give some more time for investigation and for for deepening their understanding of their own religion. So us as Westerner, we come from outside, and then we have that, that that keenness of wanting to go to the source and really, you know, seeing what it's all about, and put aside, you know, the things that are not, not that necessary. You know, like, well, you have a lot of things that that are, you know, we call, say, superficial. But this is what kept the traditional life, you know, like the ceremonies and the social roles of monastics and the role also of a temple, and all the dynamic of Buddhism over there creates, it creates a kind of ambience on this is what you know. Last week, we had an interview with the Stephen bachelor, and then you were saying that the advantage of a tradition and the advantage of living in in these, you know, traditional Asian places, like in monasteries, is the ambience that it carries. So you arrive there, and then the ambience is, is beyond words. This is what it conveys. So anyway, you know for sure, like, you know, I think the Westerners who used to go there in these days now it is, it is a bit change, but we were very lucky, because we had a lot of freedom and also a lot of respect from the from the locals, like in Sri Lanka, even in in Burma, you know, the Westerners had been colonizer, so when they saw Westerners, you know, becoming a monk, monks and. Once, then the their fate was, was so so strong that they did everything that that will help you to go on with your practice and and, yeah. So the freedom, I think, that that you could find in these days in some monasteries, was very special. And this is also one of the thing that was totally challenging, sometimes for Westerners, because there was not enough structure. You had to make your own schedule, your own day, and then it's not obvious. So after a year or two, then you say, Okay, now, so what you know? So if you don't know how to to organize yourself properly, then you just think, Oh no, this is useless, and you disrobe. Oh so I think this is the reason why many Westerners just spend a few years over there, and after after that, they get fed up. And, you know, they don't, they come back. This is, of course, you have other reasons, but this is one of them.
Host 56:05
And I think that is one of the real advantages, many advantages. But one in particular that the intensive meditation courses bring, is, it is it gives that structure for you and for those coming from very different environment to be told, this is when you wake up. This is when you eat. This is when you rest. This is when you might do chores. This is when you get information and you you learn. This is when you have question and answers. That's very it's very helpful thing to just not have choices and to just follow, just step into this routine, this flow, and follow into it. I think the danger comes with anything when that then that structure then locks you into a certain kind of place where you're not able to improvise or to think on your own of different ways to adjust the structure or whatnot. And I think that's where many meditators, including my own journey, that have described coming to Burma or to other Southeast Asian countries, and they describe a sense of freedom that comes when they're able to come with that structure they've been following on a course, but then step into a monastic environment where they realize, oh, I can. I don't have to follow the same structure that I've grown up with, and that has shaped me very grateful to that, but I'm able to now make some of my own decisions. I actually want to rest a little longer, or I want to wake up a little earlier, or want to spend more time learning some of this information. And I think when that creativity and playfulness comes to one spiritual practice in in a way that a monastic setting allows, then you have the possibility of having the best of both worlds, where you you you've been given a structure, and know the value of what to follow. You're not just free floating, but you're able to make that structure work for you and have a little more independence and making your own decisions.
U Jagara 57:50
Yes, exactly. And you know, since you speak about intensive practice in sentence in monasteries or meditation center, then yes, this is giving a structure, and this can be very useful and quite helpful to keep us grounded with with the practice itself. But the point you know is that this can become artificial. So people who just learn intensive practice. Then sometimes they are, they are lost when they when they go out of the center, and they don't know how to adapt it. So this is the, you know. This is the difference here, with the with the with with the monk home or not. Is the, although you can practice intensively in a place, still when you go out, then the practice is you are forced, somehow, you know, to continue your practice. Because every little thing is important as because your whole life is that now and then the society also is, is putting the, you know, the reminder, is giving the reminder back to you. So this is the differences. This is why. This is why, also the creativity that you are talking about is is more easily integrated because because of the social support that you are having.
Host 59:15
I think it's also interesting because I just want to, I want to prompt you with a question that I think might be obvious to you, but not obvious to many of our listeners, and that's we're talking about creativity and playfulness as a monk. And I'm just laughing, because I think that for those that are not so accustomed or familiar with the monkhood, you think of like the orthodoxy of the monkhood being really the opposite of playfulness or creativity, right? You know, it's this religious orthodoxy that the strict protocol, the sternness that you're stepping into, and this this and even this mundane kind of monolithic similarness. And the joke I often make is that just because monks all have the same fashion sense and the same hairstyle. We tend to think as outsiders that well, they must, it must be this monolithic organization. And of course, we know it's anything but. And I think the dynamicism and the inventiveness that can be found among the Sangha, I think, is sometimes hidden by the sameness that it appears from the outside. And so I wonder if you could take a moment to talk about and dispel some of these stereotypes that one might have outside, whether one is a lay meditator or just someone completely outside of the Buddhist experience that is familiar with Myanmar, but just looking at monks in a certain way, and talk about how, as a monk, of course, you have the Vinaya, and you have the monastic protocols and rules and cultural expectations and timetable and etc that you have to follow, but you also have the opportunity of follow, of exploring this playfulness and creativity in your practice and in your life that might not be so readily apparent for someone that just sees it as this, these these rules, this religiosity, this protocol that you have to follow, and where the creativeness and the playfulness can come into that.
U Jagara 1:01:06
Well, I think, I think you are touching a very important aspect of the practice itself and creativity and the playfulness. You know, the joy actually playfulness also, is a is a sign of being joyful and happy. This comes from the mind. So because those who are practicing are so intimate with what's happening in their mind, they know with the experience, and they know how to make themselves happy. So this is one aspect of you know, the development is that there is a kind of natural happiness that this starts to to be part of you when you don't, when you are not forced to do anything special, then that space gives you peace and also clarity and also happiness. You know, there is a kind of freedom that is very light. So from there, our creativity is a state of mind. And whether, you know, like, No, you are talking about monastics. Also, you know, like, keep it to it. We will keep it. We will keep it to this, to this model, also in the field of monks, on the field of monasticism, then the mind is creative, also, the mind of these people can be can have these qualities. So whatever they are doing, whatever they are saying, whatever they are thinking, is creative. Also can be beautiful, can be loving, can be also peaceful and harmonious, because the mind has touched that, that source of creativity. And you know, like, if I look at the friends and the people I have met in monasteries, and I want some of the most creative and artistic people that I have known in my life were Moe so many of my friends, you know, they were just artists and monks, monks friends, they were just artists. And also about, you know, their lightness. And most of you know the some of the most funny people that I have met. So you know humor and having a good time in the sense of not losing your time, but being able to approach life with with lightness and with lightness in the sense of easiness and also in the sense of clarity and well, humor is, is, is, is in the outcome of the advantage of a monastic life, because, because, you know, of course, you know, they can have fun and they can have they can be like, like this, because they don't have so much responsibilities. You know, they don't need to feed their children. They don't need to work for, you know, for their education and the life is much easier. It was good with the ball. I remember one of the one of the sentence that inspired me to become a monk when I was 17 or 18. Anyway, with the first discourses of goenkaji, you know, he was saying, he was speaking about the monks. In these days, he was speaking more about monks. Later on, he didn't speak so much about that. But saying, Ah, the the he was saying, of the monks. You know that these people, they have nothing. They have nothing. They just have a bowl and their robes and their medicine if they are sick. But they are so happy, they are so serene. Also, just to say that what we need in life to be happy is not so much. And food and medicine and clothes and shelters, but our society is imposing so many other things that we tend to see happiness in the achievement of the satisfaction and never you know, the getting our happiness from outside where then there is no end, you know, we will have, you know, dozen pairs of shoes and then all kinds of cars and houses. But the happiness is not coming from that. So I think this the symbol, the symbol of having nothing but being so full of happiness and love is given to the monk. Was given also to to a monastic in the going phrase.
Host 1:05:52
So I'm also thinking, like in the Zen tradition, you can the monks can develop a sense of they can develop their practice and their spiritual practice. And then there's so much art that goes along with being a Zen monk, whether it's calligraphy or or some other type of artist expression, artistic expression that comes from the pure mind and Zen has developed in all of these ways. But in Theravada, that's not so much the case. And I'm recalling conversations I've had with monastics like ARIA, in the chan min tradition. She's from Switzerland, and she talked about how dance was a big part of her life, and she had to give up dance to become a nun, and did so and talked about that journey. Or I'm thinking of like biku Rahula, who we've talked to, who's from Mexico, and his his background was music and music with professional musician a love of music. And he talked about his pronunciation of music to become a monk. And so obviously, when you're becoming a Theravada monk, you do have to give up the expression of music, the expression of dance, as well as other types of artistic expression that one can possibly do in other forms of Well, certainly spiritual practice, but even like Zen monkhood and so when you talk about monks being some of the most artistic, creative, playful people that you know, I wonder if you can describe How that that sense of creativity and playfulness comes out when there are certain artistic expressions that are simply not allowed while you're in robes.
U Jagara 1:07:29
Oh, well, you know, of course, you know, if we look at the tradition itself or in serious Asian, South Asian monastery, it's kind of serious, like all the monks. If we give the permission for monks to practice the their instrument, you know, it will be, it will be very noisy everywhere, playing trumpets. And you know, So music is not allowed. One of the this is one of the reason in dance, also in Theravada, is not to encourage it, but, but gracefulness. What about gracefulness? So the way people move, this can be so, and the way people speak and also be a musical expression. So for that this is, this is good, but I had the chance, you know, to live in Hermitage, like in Sri Lanka especially, and then all the monks that were passing our place, they could express their talents, like some were. They did some paintings in the wall, on the wall, and, you know, they were doing their drawings. And, yeah, they had a good friend or so. We had some, we had some Vietnamese descendants, you know. And then he was, he was doing gardening. So although strict Theravada will not allow it that that friend, he turned our hermitage into a button botanical garden. So he was so full. And then he brought so many plants from here and there. And then he stayed at that place for 12 years. So it didn't take long, and people were just coming to see, you know, the beauty of the garden, but whatever, also, whatever he was doing, like we needed to, to take care of the place. So with the, you know, we needed tools. And so he was, he will carve everything, you know, to the How to say, the handle for AX or hammer. Then he will, he will carve these things. And so this is what it is, you know, and creativity also, some are writers. Also, some, they will go into writings and but, but for sure, you know, the expression of creativity in monasteries can be limited, but we can detect and then we. And see also the mind of an artist, just by being with the person or the way that they interact. And then, you know, you you speak about music. And I was also a musician myself, as as I said. And then we look in the, you know, the first Theravada monks that, especially that settle in in Sri Lanka after the war, the Europeans, you had nyanamu, the famous translator that was coming from UK. He was also musician. He was an artist, kind of a very good artist. And is this also was a famous in, you know, one of the first German translator, or he translated a lot of the typical into German. He was a composer, and he was a virtuos of violin, and he could play piano and all of these things. So, of course, he was a damn musician, you know, he was just such a complete musician. And he was asked that question, well, you know, bante, you were a composer, and then a virtuos and what you are missing, what you are not missing, music in this, you know, in this very acidic environment of monastery. And what he said was that the satisfaction that he was getting, or that he could get from music had nothing to do with the satisfaction that he will get by contemplating death. Suthi, you know, meditation on death was his favorite type of meditation. It was, it was a source of happiness that could not be matched with any kind of music. Of course, we can, we can question that, but to say, just to say that when we are successful, and you know, our meditation is really getting boiling, the happiness that is coming from that has nothing to do with any sense pleasure in art, you know, music or nice paintings is just is still related to sense pleasures. So that's why, you know, that's why that it is said that the art, art is coming from the mind and creativity also is coming from the mind. So in states of meditation, the mind can get so refined that it is floating. It is, you know, it cannot be described by way of light, by way of happiness, by way of clarity, and also by way of creativity, all the potentials are there, but it's not necessarily expressed, but it's there. You are touching that dimension of art and creativity deep within yourself. So whatever you will do will be, will be a piece of art, and it's not necessary to do it, to express it.
Host 1:13:23
That's that's beautiful, beautiful to contemplate. And I know that my journey with meditation, as I started to dig more into the Goenka structure and system and get the benefit from how the practice was, I started in my kind of more early, immature phase of trying to figure out integrations, which I think many people go to i i came to that with two characteristics of mind innate in me, the sense of creativity and playfulness and being critical in nature. And in that intensive meditation structure, I went through these period, these periods when I was young in my practice and young in life, of feeling like I had this binary choice to make, that I was either going to develop on this road of liberation, and to do so, I had to give up my creativity. I had to give up my critical nature of mind and absorb this technical practice and methodology of what was being taught to me, or I had to continue in my playfulness and creativity and critical nature, but then I couldn't practice meditation. And for me, it's been, it's been a journey, as I think it is, for many, to learn how these different elements come together. Whether you're a lay practitioner or a a monastic or to what degree you're you're continuing, and you're continuing, and you're continuing to find these integrations of, how do I go into this intensive practice and then bring this into my life and and find out where this all fits together. I think that continues to be a an effort on the path and realizing, like, how do I how do I follow this? Um, this, this meditation technique and and this Buddhist path, Theravada Buddhist path. And how do I continue to bring in these creative and critical parts of my nature and my mind to not be at odds with what this practice is, but to actually support it. And that can be an effort in maturing and growing.
U Jagara 1:15:20
I think, well, yes, you know, we had a teacher, you know, a very famous teacher in Sri Lanka. And you know, it's one of his motto, yeah, this very interesting motto. And then one of them was, if you put the Dhamma into a technique, the only thing you get is the technique. Also, just to say that methods, methods and techniques are important, but you made the Dhamma is much bigger than that, so it's not the main thing, right? So they can be useful, but you should not. We should not get stuck with that. So this is one thing. So if the structure by which we approach the Dharma is too tight, so limited to a technique, then we will always be limited. We'll go with with the side, you know, the eyes just close and this is not the Dharma about the critical aspect, then, you know, the approach to Buddhism, the approach to them, to Dhamma, has to be critical, like just we remembered, you know, the karama sutta. So it's an inquiry and a questioning and non acceptance of what the texts say, what the teacher says, what the gurus or what a tradition, and you know, whoever else say, you have to be very critical. Also, I think this is important for us to to be reminded, or in this aspect of criticism, or this aspect, at least now, this aspect of inquiry, not suspicion, but inquiry and skepticism is very healthy, because from question only, from questioning, we can come to new conclusions, And then reality is not something that is, that is based on a static conclusion, reality is always changing. That means our questioning should always be there. So when we are when we have an inquisitive mind, a critical mind, then it can be creative, because we are ready to let the past be the past. We are ready to die to what we have formed as a theory and as a conclusion, and then open up to what is new. So this is creativity to die from the old and then to get born with with the new what is happening now? What can I do now, and what what is possible? So, yeah, so I think keeping that in mind then you know, all the, all the Dhamma Bucha is leading, not leading us to liberation. So what is that? What is liberation? What are we getting liberated from? So, you know, we are liberating. We are getting liberated from, from a prison, from from illness, from a disease, from all kinds of, you know, things that are putting us down, but liberated also from our views and opinions and prejudice and all these things. So what is the meaning of liberation?
Host 1:18:57
The other thing I want to go back to your story with, and I do want to move forward with as you went to Sri Lanka, there are just so many threads that were interesting to pull and pull off the side of the road and reflect on the view, so to speak. And that's you had referenced how you were talking with one of your friends from the days of old, and mentioning how difficult your experience was in finding the Dhamma then, and how much easier it's become, I think that's true. Every couple of decades you can make that statement. I think if you were to look at the couple decades before your time, there was quite a bit more difficult than what you found, and couple decades on, it's gotten a bit easier yet. And and just reflect on what it means to have to weather and go through these difficulties to find the practice of liberation, and then what it means to just kind of have them more delivered at your doorstep and several decades after your experience of being there intensive meditation courses. And really every community around the world and certainly the West, have sprung. Up. And then, even after that, then you had the internet, and you didn't even have to necessarily go physically leave your room. You then had the ability of taking your own self courses and accessing all kinds of audio discourses and commentaries and books and websites and everything else YouTube that that wasn't that that's even a step beyond the intensive meditation course being offered physically in your community, that you have the virtual space there. And so there's, it seems, there's this balance between the the ease of being able to access these things in ways that can bring more people in. That might be somewhat of a good thing. But then it also seems that having to make more of an effort and see really the value of what you're getting and how, and the strength of your aspiration in overcoming all of these odds and challenges to really find what you're looking for, to then appreciate the value. It's not just something delivered to you that's that's a benefit in the other direction. So as you look at these different eras and different ways to access the Dhamma, how do you find that balance?
U Jagara 1:21:13
Well, yeah, for sure, you know, for sure, the advantage or the thing we get that by, you know, by having gone there and then really made the search, just from scrapped and going to the roots is very different than, you know, the modern conditions now, where we can get anything from anywhere in the world, in our plate. And this is the difference. This is the difference. It doesn't mean that because you can get everything in your plate that you are not going to enjoy it and you are not going to make to take benefit out of it, but it's very different than then, you know, going to to a place where you learn how to cultivate the, you know, the vegetables that are part of the dish, and you know to cook, and you know to prepare, and all of these things. So what is the middle way? I think, as long as we don't get stuck into our comfort, and then as long as we are not getting complacent in this easiness, you know, like the modern society is offering us so far, like if we are in some part of the Western world, it's kind of the standard is very high compared to the time of history. So if we don't get the sleep in our in a complex in a kind of complaisance, then, you know, the search can still be there. And I think it's, it is very important to keep it alive. Also for myself, I know how to do it. But for people who don't have other alternatives and are just soaking in this kind of world, in a way, you know, it's, it's a kind of easy you can get any book, any kind of teaching, any kind of teachers, and whenever you want. So I think it's a drive if we don't lose the drive, and then if we don't have, you know, there's some people were, you know, they were mentioning, you know, if we look at the they were mentioning the reasons why they are practicing, and it has to come from a very serious inquiry about, about, you know, the source of unsatisfaction, the source of suffering. So, you know the four messengers of the Buddha that the Buddha encountered with death, with illness. You know, sickness and old age, and then also with the with the ascetic, these four messengers are very important to keep us motivated. So if we don't have that, that kind of fire in ourself, we are going to get stuck. It's just like, you know, it is just like consuming any kind of thing, and then you don't go to the depth, because as soon as you find it difficult, you can change your program and then go to another, you know, another system, and you will always be able to entertain yourself and then just to, just to be, you know, in a state of complacency and comfortable and comfort. So I think sometimes we need, we need a slap from reality that that helps us to wake up to the fact that we are going to die and that the sickness and all these things are just part of our existence. So when we are aware of that, and then to very deep aspect, then we will keep that kind of eagerness just to, just to keep our life in that in. That direction? No, it's a sense of it's a sense of urgency. San Vega, that dimension in Buddhism.
Host 1:25:10
Right? So I want to go back to your story, because we left off when you had left Burma after the three month visa expired, and you're now in Sri Lanka, and you describe a bit of your extended stay there, if you could pick off from there, and tell us what that experience was like, and then where, what happened after that?
U Jagara 1:25:28
Oh, well, then, then, you know, like in all now, in all, in Sri Lanka, I lived about 15 years, or in the first 10 years, I didn't go back to the west. Also, I was in Sri Lanka, sometimes going to India for intensive practice. Sometimes also, I will pass by Thailand and spend a few months in monasteries in Thailand, but for the first 10 years, then go back to the west. But at some point, I went back just to visit. And at some point also, you know, I was, you know, I had the possibility to teach meditation. I was, I was invited, so I started to teach, to give some few retreats in the in the West. So I will go and spend a few months, and then I will come back to Sri Lanka. So Nevertheless, most of my time for these 15 years were in Sri Lanka. So after about 15 so years in Sri Lanka, then you have kind of gone all around, you know, all around the culture, and then, you know, everything that, that you're looking for, you know, everything that that was, that was of interest of you, for you before, and then you saturate, you get fed up, and you say, Okay, now what's next? What can I learn more? What is there for me to discover and to use for, you know, for my education, or for my, you know, motivation of being alive. So I got saturated. Also, after 15 years, then what happened is that while, you know, the previous year, when I had gone to Europe, then I fell in love with with a lady, and then I kept in touch with her, and then she invited me to stay with her, and then just to spend the summer with, with her over there. And this is what I did. So this room for about four months, and then I had a break, because I had enough of that monastic life. I had enough also of Sri Lanka in Asia. You know, I really wanted to have a break and to see what my life was leading me and what thought that all these practice were had given me, also before I left Sri Lanka, then one of my old friend over there, you know, the English Canadian that that remained most of his time in the in the meditation center in Sri Lanka. Then, before leaving, I went to visit him. And it was in 9519 95 and we just heard that Burma Myanmar had opened their doors again for foreigners to visit. Then it was possible to have longer visa, and also it was possible to stay there for much easily than it was before it was also possible to travel. So this excited us. So before I leave Sri Lanka for France and Canada, then we made a pact with that friend and I said, Okay, now in about four months after the rainy season, I'm going to come back and together, we are going to visit Burma now and then we are going that we are going to see what, what's happening there. So this is why, when September came, October, then I told my friend I had mentioned that to her before that at that time, then I will have to go back and, you know, do that, that that trip to Myanmar with my friend, and didn't know, you know, so she was, she was in for before. So this is what happened. So, so I went back to Sri Lanka, and then I met my friend, and I took the robes again. It took the San an era, and just to take it easy, because I had enough, you know, when you spend about, you know, some months in France and with a girl, it's kind of very well, it's in your life and well, you know, it's the. Of the things to discover aspects of life that I had not so much investigated and known before. So I was not that much interested to remain as a monastic. I was keeping all of that open. But still, I had that contract with, I mean, that engagement with my friends, we went to to Myanmar, and the first thing that we did is that we had a friend, you know, was who had been there for a couple of years, and he was living in park at the park monastery, and he said to us that we should come directly there and then, you know, to see the place. And the teacher the Park said there was a very good teacher. And also the place was exceptional. So although we wanted to visit around the country, this was my interest right at the beginning, when I left Irma, after my See, then I wanted to my interest, what was to see the different types of teachings, the different types of schools that was available in that in the Burmese tradition. But it was not possible. So when that possibility came, then this was my my interest. Nevertheless, I went to with my friend. We went to to park monastery, Melania, and we were charmed by the teacher and also the by the place. And for me, it was, it was a new world. Oh, well, you know, like when I said that I was in Sri Lanka for at least 10 years without, without going back to the west, like I was in there, and also in India. So after five years being in Sri Lanka, the month, then, you know, I, when I got to, we got three then I was, I was proposed to, you know, to assist goenkaji For for his teaching. And I accepted. So this is the reason also why, you know, I was, was a meditation teacher. And this is why I had gone to Europe, in in in Canada, before I met that girl, on that lady. So, yes, so, you know, I thought in the Goenka tradition for about 10 years.
Host 1:32:19
Thank you for that. That's that's a lot there. And, you know, there's three elements I realized that were that are now coming up, that I think each deserve their own time and space. We've already gone on for a bit, so we'll get to that in the next session. But just to flesh those out, you know, one is the experience of just what it's like going from being a monastic for many years in Southeast Asia to a layperson in a relationship in the West, and then back to Asia again. That's at itself, is an extraordinary story. Then there's your time with the Goenka tradition and and being a teacher in the Goenka tradition and being more involved in their practices, and what that was like. And then the third which you've just teased here is your introduction to pou xada And your many years that will continue in the pouk system. So these are all three really incredible topics to explore in the detail they deserve. I think this is a great introduction to leading up to this point at the precipice of these great conversations. So I think this is also a natural time to to close and to pause and hopefully continue this in later sessions.
U Jagara 1:33:26
Yeah, yeah. I think I think this is right. I think that, you know these, these new doors. I think this is what is mostly, is what will be interesting for people. Or anyway, let's see.
Host 1:33:43
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