Transcript: Episode #335: Hear Me Now
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 00:07
Thank you for joining us for the next hour or two in this episode of Insight, Myanmar podcast. In an age of nearly limitless content, we appreciate that you're choosing to take valuable time out of your day to learn more about what is happening in Myanmar, it's vital for this story to continue to be heard by people around the world, and that starts right now.
Mia Kruska 01:20
Ah, thanks for having me. I'm Mia Kruska. I work for green political party here in Berlin, Germany, in the Asian division. And yeah, my background with Myanmar is that I, I don't know, dealing with Myanmar since 10 years now. So after I graduate, I traveled the first time to Myanmar, just like a backpacking person. And I was super fascinated by what was happening politically there, like it was in 2014 and I was very young, 19 or 20, like very more naive, I would say. And but it really kept me, and especially, yeah, kept me that when I was back, it was super hard to find any information like and even people here in Germany didn't know that there actually is a country existing called Myanmar. So I was like, Okay, how can that be? So I started studying more and more and so, yeah, Myanmar was also a topic for my Bachelor's, also for my master's. So I studied southeast Yeah, Southeast Asian Studies, and yeah, yeah, still a thing till now.
Host 02:49
Right? And thank you for that introduction, and I want to share with our audience this is part of our ongoing emergency crisis response to the earthquake and the aftermath. And our interviews are exploring many different directions of the guests that are coming on as we talk with Mia, obviously, she is not in Myanmar now, and also is not part of the urgent relief efforts. But I think this is a valuable conversation, because as we're trying to hit the different the many different aspects, perspectives, angles, of what's happening. Of course, a large component is what's happening on the ground, and the international response dimension, and and and as the situation progresses, what people are going through. But another part to explore is, I think that many of our listeners fall into a basket of having some special connection with Myanmar, whether it's a spiritual or an extended period of time there or friends or something else, and just feeling this, this pained connection of what people are going through now, and memories of the Myanmar experience and their connection are coming to mind and and that's something that I think many People are going through now. And so I think through this conversation with you and exploring your past experiences and relation to the country and the people and what you're feeling right now, I think this is kind of a stand in for what many listeners are feeling in their own homes, kind of scattered throughout the world. Yeah.
Mia Kruska 04:18
So I remember like waking up in Germany on a Friday morning, like the earthquake already happened, but I didn't know. And every Friday morning, I have Thai classes online with the Thai school in Bangkok. And so they were writing me, actually, we can't do our class because of the earthquake. And then I was like, oh, what? And then I checked it, and then I found out, actually the epicenter is Myanmar. But I couldn't find so many news, like, I just got the like, the news from Bangkok, but knowing Myanmar and also knowing how the architecture is or that it's not, yeah, the architecture is very old and maybe not stable. And like, I just knew okay for Myanmar, it's a different thing. And also being, like, knowing the epicenter was there. So first thing was like, checking my friends, like in Myanmar, but also my friends who are living in along the Myanmar Thai border. And yeah, checking if they are okay, asking also my friends, or Burmese friends living here in Germany, how their families are. Yeah, this was the first thing I did. And then throughout the weekend, I saw so many devasting pictures, and it was super hard to cope with, like I got very, very emotional, and I think especially throughout the last four years, where we have so many devasting youth on Myanmar and that it's very challenging to, yeah, to have hope, to see a perspective, I think they are. I still have hope. Like now, after a week of digesting what's happening with the earthquake, I still have hope. But throughout the last week, it was very, very hard. And then I realized also I wanted, like to see all the the pictures from Myanmar throughout the week. I was about also to re share it on Instagram or other social media, but then I was like, No, I think I don't want to share. I think it's very important to share what is happening there and also to share these pictures. But sometimes it feels, yeah, you have an agency in these helpless, helpless moments, like just sharing the wasting pictures, but for what? So I wanted to pause thinking about like, what can I share? What has maybe a bit more meaning, or something more speaking out from my heart, what brings something different, maybe on social media. So I posted like, or I was thinking on Myanmar and what all the travel, travel I did, or also like the time I lived there gave me, what did I learned from Burmese people what helps me now and what also could encourage people to help Myanmar in this situation. And I was thinking back on my first time being in Myanmar, I think it was the second week. Yeah, I was very young, and I traveled with a group of monks and nuns through different parts of the country. I mean, back then, I haven't had a mobile I didn't actually, I didn't really know where we were, but it was super interesting and such a valuable experience being so close to them for such a long time, and really seeing Buddhist. Yeah, Buddhist. How can I say a behavior or concept in daily life? And so seeing like every morning, the nuns and monks walking arms, and I saw that, yeah, the people who give, like, little amounts of money or food to the monks were very thankful, really thankful for Giving. And very Yeah, I don't know. Felt really, yeah, very thankful. I don't know i It's hard to describe, but in a very deep sense, and from like, my Western perspective, back in the days, I was a bit like, irritated. I was like, hey, but shouldn't be the monk and nuns being very thankful for receiving like, and I don't know, seeing this every day, every morning, I was really wondering. And so I talked like, I remember when I went to bed, or like, when I was sharing the mosquito net with some nuns. I was asking them about it, and they said, Yeah, no, actually, like, it's here, here in Myanmar, you have to be thankful for giving, because it's like a chance to improve your karma. And, yeah, actually, that was really, I don't know. I mean, it's a concept which it's really contradictory to capitalism thinking or capitalist thinking. So, yeah, I wrote about this experience and how important it is to give when we can. And this is a moment where Myanmar needs us as. Especially like, especially like people who are now affected by the earthquake. So, yeah, I post about that. I also posted some Yeah, sources where people can donate, or trustworthy donation, because, like, a lot of donation goes also to the military or the more official donation goes to the military, what we really don't want. So I think it's especially important to explain people who don't have so much knowledge about Myanmar how important it is to donate to grassroot organizations.
Host 10:44
So yeah, so what I hear you saying is that a lot of this last week has been a combination of figuring out how to be an ally, what, what kind of ally is needed for this time and where you fit in while you're balancing your own emotions and then as you're trying to situate yourself and understand your position as an ally and what you can do best, while also trying to maintain that emotional and mental balance, drawing on lessons from Myanmar itself at this time. And I think again, I think this is a really valuable reflection and conversation at this time for so many like you that are in this position, that are are trying to figure out from from my stance, from my place, how can I be an ally, and what are the lessons I can actually take from Myanmar to to to understand what my role best is at this time. So I wonder if you can expand on that a bit.
Mia Kruska 11:36
Yeah, sure. Yeah. I also was thinking, especially after the military coup, like Myanmar, when it's in the news, Myanmar scene, like as a country which need help, and sure it does, sure it does, but it's, I mean, you kind of oversee all the aspects what Myanmar, Myanmar people have already like, or what they can give, you know, and what did I learn like that? It's not just one like I just thought about, okay, I just don't like the thinking. Like the West is always a country who gives like that, and then it's just like, maybe from the financial side or money side. But I deeply believe about this is also something I really experience and value that I received so many things from people in Myanmar, and I wanted to show that, and I wanted to, yeah, to live that and to value that. So I think this is also something, I mean, my definition of an alley is like it's both sided and not just seeing Myanmar as a developing country, like at its very superficial perspective on a country, and I think also very westernized perspective.
Host 13:08
I think that's very true, and I think that's something that our platform has tried to hit time and again, is how much Myanmar is a giver. And of course, when it comes to spiritual wisdom and and the practice of meditation and Buddhism, it's a it's a giver in every sense of the word. I think that that's without doubt for those that are outside of the meditation or spiritual realm. I think that when one of the profound things is when you look at how the Burmese for these years and decades have had to self organize and seek out creative resistance and find ways to serve each other, whether it's through infrastructure or education or health or whatever other kinds of community based ways, when the state is not only not helping them and not only actively preventing them, but also threatening The very, their very lives and trying to help each other. When you look at that, you know, they are light years ahead of us, just light years ahead of anywhere I know in the world, if any, you know, most places I know in the world, including my own country. If, if we were to go through even a slight version of the kind of hardships that they face to to, you know, we would have so much to learn from how they've handled that. And we've seen that in the United States, even under the Trump administration. You know, I've had friends, I've had conversations with American friends who have felt a sense of hopelessness and a lack of ideas, and I've pointed them to podcast conversations that we've done on Myanmar, and I've said, these are much more extreme conditions of oppression, and these are the kinds of creative resistance where you have asymmetrical power structures that you you can't face it head on. There are many different ways that you can battle this, besides just, you know, feeling depressed or defeated because the head on style didn't work. But, um. Because we haven't had that experience. We haven't developed those faculties. And so I think whatever way one looks, there is just so much that we could be learning from, and certainly a lot that we could be giving as well. But as you say, this is a reciprocal relationship.
Mia Kruska 15:15
Yes, yes, definitely. And I also remember, like, I mean, I don't know if you followed, but like, also the political situation in Germany is, like, very fragile. I mean, not just or not fragile, maybe, like many German people, feel a bit insecure, like what's happening, like, not just with the Trump Administration, also before the elections. And I mean to compare to other countries, I think we are still fine, but you feel a lot of insecurity. And also I feel a lot of insecurity, especially some weeks ago, like before the election, and where we were expecting the right wing gets more vote, what they unfortunately did. And I remember, like a Burmese friend of mine, she invited for some Burmese food. So I went there, and, like also some other Burmese people living here in exile joined, and we were, or they were asking me about the political situation here in Germany, and they felt that I, yeah, felt very insecure at or that I didn't feel well. And then they said, like, no, actually, we are here for there. You know, we have so many resources. We have been to so much stuff, like, we know how you feel, and we are here for you, and that meant a lot to me, and also realizing I thought, like, wow, I was so naive. I this was a moment. I mean, I knew before through what they are going or what they have been going through and still go, but this was the first time I felt like I'm understanding this on a more emotional level, and that they are offering me their resources, kind of augmented resources, how they are going through hard stuff. And I felt so thankful, and on the other hand, also super naive, but yeah, there felt like, well, it's Yeah, I was, I was very thankful for receiving in this, in that way, but also.
Host 17:38
Yeah, yeah, and this is what you see in milk tea Alliance. You know, when I first came to understand milk tea Alliance, I thought naively that after the military coup, since Myanmar was in such a difficult situation, that this was a kind of bond that was bringing the region to help Myanmar. And however true that is, it's equally true how Myanmar is helping the region, and that happens in several ways. I mean, in the groups, in the milk tea Alliance, groups that I'm in, you'll hear about an arrest or an authoritarian measure taken anywhere from, you know, Indonesia to Thailand, to anywhere else, or something celebrated that some some positive sign that takes place as well in the region. And the Myanmar activists are lighting up and are lighting up with sell, with a celebratory message, or with a concern and wanting to share advocacy, even in the situation they're in, but more so, you know, and I've stressed this many times on the podcast, when I speak to activists from milk tea Alliance, from countries outside of Myanmar in the region, they all hold Myanmar as kind of the pinnacle, kind of like the the admiration that they have for how the Myanmar activists have been able to hold the candle in the most difficult of times, in in situations that they've never faced in their countries. They're really showing what's possible. And so I think this is, this is something we're trying to do on the platform with the conversations we're having, is to flip this narrative. There's, there's this flawed narrative out there of that looks at and I'm sure that you know this, not just from your personal reflections, but also your academic and professional involvements and in how and how you're engaged in the country. But there's this, this reductionist kind of view of Myanmar that puts things in black and white terms. And then, if that wasn't enough, it goes on from there to to look at just the breakdown and the difficulty and the damage and everything else, and it doesn't take in that nuance. And that nuance is what informs a different narrative from taking place, which changes the entire way one looks at it. And that's to me, that's the real tragedy of that understanding not being better fostered.
Mia Kruska 19:48
Yeah, definitely. There's also another narrative I'm often confronted with, like here in the germ. In European sphere when it comes to advocacy on Myanmar, that people sometimes think like, yeah, Myanmar is too complicated. Like, this is always like, sometimes it's so hard to advocate on Myanmar, just drawing out. Like, hey, it's important. Like, I have always to find good arguments, like, why is it important? But also like, yeah, when I explain, then it's like, oh yeah, Myanmar is too complicated. And sure it is complicated, like thinking on the all these different ethnic armed organizations, and I mean, there is definitely no black and white. They are different. I don't know different grace, I would say, or like, but I just don't want to stop with me and being me and my being too complicated, because then it doesn't have any productivity. Like, yeah, if you stop there, it's might, I think, yeah, then people here who might want to do something for Myanmar stop. But I think looking and like more small like looking into smaller organizations, like different regions, like in on a smaller scale, then you see so many different little improvements in infrastructure. Or like how passionate people in Myanmar are to build something different. Like, yeah, as you said, it's not black and white, and not everything is complicated, like the show, it is challenging, but in this complexity, you find a lot of hope, especially like seeing how many Yeah, democratic forces are standing for a better change, and especially see it in a younger generation who are also reflecting on like how they are influenced by different ethnic, national thinking, for example, like there is a reflection, and there is a motivation to do things differently, and but it also needs, yeah, education, and this is, I think, another big topic in my education, and especially in this crisis, how the younger, younger generation can can seek for a better education. But I, I have hope and somehow, that in a maybe more far than your future, there will be a positive change, at least on a local, more local base. I don't really see it on a national level. But I mean also looking back in Myanmar's history, I think it never have been like a nation state or like not everyone identified it with. And so I think this is also not a solution for the future.
Host 23:22
So in your last response, I noticed a kind of moving back and forth between the personal and the professional academic. And that's a balance. I think that is interesting to look at here, because we began this conversation by talking about your profound personal experience of being a 19 year old backpacker that somehow got incorporated in a caravan of monks and nuns traveling where, who knows where, somewhere in the country, and the experience you gained from that. And then you went on to talk about your your undergraduate thesis, your master's thesis, your your current work, which haven't really touched on in detail yet. And I don't know how much you could share of that, but I wonder if you can talk a little bit about your professional and academic background in to Burma Myanmar, to whatever degree you're you're comfortable in, in being able to share publicly, and then talk about how that background has been incorporated into the personal interactions that you had from The start and then I'm sure continue to this day.
Mia Kruska 24:23
So, yeah, what I said already, like, after traveling the first time in Myanmar, I mean, I think it was a typical thing, like with a backpack, doing the typical route, like Yangon, Mandalay Bagan in Yale, in a lake, and like all these, this typical route in the white area, like, where it was not dangerous to travel. And, yeah, then it really kept me, because I wanted to get to know more about the country. So actually, I started in Germany, studying. In history and German language, which was not really related to Myanmar, but I try to screech in as much Myanmar as I can. So I did my bachelor thesis on the Shan state, or the history of the San state, interviewing like Austrian San princes. Ing was a Austrian woman, and she, after the Second World War, she studied in us, got to know SAO Joah San. They fall in love. They got married in us. And he was from from Burma. This is the only thing she knew. So she went back with him to San state, or back in the days it was Shan states. So around, I can't remember the exact number, but maybe 33 or 39 different San state, which are rain under the SAU pass, like the Kings, who are like different chan kings. And then when they arrived in, oh yeah, Burma, back in the days Burma, they she realized that he is one of these kings, and that she is like the new San Francis, which I think especially back in the time, was very challenging, because, I mean, she like learning. She learned the language San, she learned also Burmese. And actually, like both of them, they try to shift from feudalism to more democratic structures in their little state, like SIPA and yeah, I was covering this kind of history, time, time frame, but yeah, just to wrap it up here, like the military coup happened then her husband got killed. She had to flee with her two daughters, and yeah, then I don't know she was never able to come back to Myanmar, but she wrote a book about it, and I read it when I was the second time in Myanmar, and actually, like, the book called Twilight over Burma. And I was like, wow, this really sounds very too romantic and too like, I was actually not really keen reading it, but back in that time, I haven't had another book to read, but her story really kept me so, yeah, we stayed, like I wrote her. We stayed in contact. And then, like I wrote my bachelor thesis about it and that back in the days, I got so into San state, also, I get to know some Burmese or San now, now friends living also in us. And when I stayed with them, they had a call with family members in Shan State, and they told them that someone from their family got caught by the military for forced service. And I was really shocked, because it was super hard for me to research that I wanted to write about it, but, like, it was super hard to gain any any knowledge. And yeah, then I started researching again and again and again. And then I also lived for a couple of months in Myanmar, went back to see Paul, talked to many people. And then, I don't know, I think also the civil war in this area got also more intense, and being a bit more aware, like you could see it everywhere. But I think as a normal tourist, it was a bit harder to see, even if you were there. And yeah, I don't know, yeah. And then for my master thesis, I focused on the this was already after the recent military coup, so I couldn't go back to Myanmar. So I decided to do my research along the Thai Myanmar border, and I worked together with the Shan Women's Action Network in Chiang Mai. They really, really helped me. And, yeah, my research was focusing on the issue of political representation in Shan State. I mean, even, yeah, I think you really see it's an issue in general in Myanmar, political representation of different ethnic groups. But you can see it also like in Shan state itself, for example, because San state is very diverse, like it seems like from the outside, learning here San state that they are just living the San but it's not true. And even the San itself, they are so diverse. And yeah, how do you how do you present that on a. Political or, yeah, political level, yeah. So I did many different interviews, like, and someone also said, like, actually, like, when we think on a future Myanmar, we should find different names for the states, because, like, just as San, I represent in the San state. And I mean, even there, like many Shan, don't really call themselves Shan. They call themselves daiyi, like the great Thai. But I would love to use that name actually, but then people don't really know from what I'm talking about. So I stay with San and yeah. So there you maybe see the complexity, right? Or the what people see as like, Oh, that's so complicated to form a future Myanmar, or like, um, yeah. How do you want to form, like, a government with these different ethnic diversities and but I think I don't know, thinking on a more local level, I think it's possible. I think many are trying already, and I don't know, just keep on going and not stopping, like, saying, like, Oh, it's too complicated. I think even looking at the diversity in Myanmar, I think there's also a big learning, also for here, for Europeans or Western is like, I think it's like a global, like, global question, thinking about political representation and diversity. Like, there's, like, it's a big topic, not only in Myanmar. And just saying, like, it's too complicated. We have the same issues here, like, on a different level, maybe, but it's, yeah, I don't know. I really think sometimes also looking back like or looking into history like, Myanmar has been always seen as very separately. I really don't know why. This is still a conundrum to me. I'm also collecting, like travel history books from different travels all over history, and even people who were traveling a lot in Asia, they always skipped Myanmar, but even before the military coup. And I don't know why. I really don't know why. And I think this is also I see till now, that Myanmar is always seen as very separate country, and not putting it in a more global context. But yeah, I mean, then you can draw the lines also, yeah, topics to diversity, or other topics. And yeah, this is like a thought I had. I wanted to add.
Host 32:45
No, there's a there's a lot there. I think that's true. And I think historically, when you look at, you know, the the British colonial period, or the Burma front and World War Two, it always seemed to be, there always seemed to be a reason that people went to Myanmar, they went here because they wanted to go somewhere else, or they they went there because they wanted to protect this, or there's an interest there because of what's around it or what's inside it, but it, it has seemed to be bypassed historically for for so long and misunderstood. And I think the other thing there that you're getting at, that I've noticed as well, is that I think any every issue that we're finding in Myanmar today, they aren't, they aren't Myanmar issues. They are issues that permeate and are found throughout many other places in the world. They're perhaps more extreme in Myanmar. They're perhaps more urgent to look at in Myanmar. But I think one of when we talk about shaping narratives and cultivating narratives to be able to have a greater impact than what they're having now and and some of the flawed ways that these narratives are constructed, I think one of the things I've worked on is by finding some of those threads of the Myanmar narrative and showing the shared humanity and common humanity, of those of what you find elsewhere, and you've touched upon several of them here. I mean, you've talked about the far right party in Germany. I've talked about the the some of the more extreme measures we're seeing in the US and of the Trump administration. But then as you look at, you know, creative resistance or or ethnic identity, or what it means to to to live among diverse populations and have representation in a kind of federal system. We could just go on and on and on. There's so many issues that are prevalent in Myanmar, and yes, they're complicated, but they're not complicated because they're a Myanmar issue. They're complicated because what is taking place and what happens to be Myanmar is a human issue of different things coming together and not having an easy solution, and it does take time and focus and care to be able to look at what those are and how to best resolve and move on from these enormous complexities.
Mia Kruska 34:58
Yeah. Definitely do. Definitely, yeah, I totally agree.
Host 35:05
And I'd like to prompt you now, as far as you're comfortable sharing to discuss, beyond your academic career, professionally, what you're involved in now with Myanmar.
Mia Kruska 35:17
I mean, I can share just some things. Because, yeah, Myanmar is a very sensitive topic, even here in in Germany, so I can't share a lot of things, even if I would love to. But I mean, first at all, I'm super happy to still being able to work on Myanmar here in Bergen, because there are not many jobs. Like, I mean, I'm not just focusing on Myanmar, I'm focusing on Southeast Asia. But yeah, I'm really happy that I can still do this professionally. And yeah, maybe I can share a bit more what I see here about like, yeah, being in Excel as a Burmese person in Germany, which is, I think, very challenging as well. I mean, I think you see the same things or similar things, also in Thailand, for Burmese people, but here in Germany, it's a case that, yeah, you have the issue with, like, the ex, the passport extensions, which I think is a huge problem all over the world with Myanmar, people like that. You can't go to the embassy here, like, yeah, it's dangerous for the family in in back in Myanmar, so people don't do it. Then also, yeah, the case that they came maybe through like a scholarship to Germany. But scholarships are not like they are limited. And now, after the four years of the coup, like you see, many scholarships are ending. And so the question is, like, what next? Because many of them were political activists, and they are scared to go back to Myanmar, or they don't really know where to go. And so yeah, it was like people are thinking about seeking asylum. But this also gets very complicated, or more and more complicated in Germany because of the strengthening right wing. Like, I mean, also, like, the main topic here in Germany before the election was migration, and was really a mess. And, yeah, these are like things people have to face. And yeah, also, I don't really look positively in the future. I think it's will get harder. And additionally, like, I think many people feel, yeah, lonely here in Germany, because, especially people here in Germany, they don't really know where Myanmar is or what's happening there. And if they know, they just see the crisis. But there's really little understanding. So it's also very Yeah, yeah, the solid lacking of solidarity or empathy, right? So yeah, and Germany doesn't have, like, huge Burmese communities, like in US or Australia. I mean, there are some more smaller communities, especially in Frankfurt, but, I mean, they are not, not big. So it's also very hard for them, like, to have a voice here, to find a voice. And, yeah, that's very, very challenging. Like, I'm not really working, like, directly on that, but like, this is, like, just from what I get working in the field, I would say, Yeah. And also I'm Yeah, I'm just very worried about them and how they feel, especially after the earthquake, and not being able to to go back to their families and help. I mean, what I what is what I find always very impressive, like, how fast they can set up funding and donation events. Really like, I mean, I think it's also like you see it also in many other countries, but I don't know, I'm always very impressed. And yeah, so I think this is like a way they are, how they cope, how they still keep an agency and also to help a country
Host 39:47
Right. And how have you found your personal side and your personal relationship with Myanmar and your academic professional relationship with Myanmar? How have you find them coming together and informing one another?
Mia Kruska 40:03
I, I think it was, it's just based on curiosity. I just wanted to know more, like, and I just didn't want to do it just privately. Like, I mean, actually it's many people told me, like, are you crazy? Like, why are you focusing so much on Myanmar? No one is interested in Myanmar, like, you won't find a job you. And there was a time I was really struggling, like, especially in my master thesis, which is kind of more important, also professionally, like, where do you want to go next, and finding a job? Yeah, I was really doubting and but there was just no other topic I was so curious about and wanted to dig deeper. And it's just, I don't know where it comes from, no clue, but I also feel it on an emotional side, like it really comes from very deep inside that I don't see myself doing something else, or at least not for longer. And yeah, also what drives me still is that there's so much to learn, like as more as I learn, I realize how less I know and how much more I can learn. And actually, that's perfect for a curious person. I would die if there's nothing more to learn. And yeah, so I think that's I'm really driven by that, and maybe especially because it's so complex, and I want to get an idea like, I think, yeah, for example, looking into Shan state. Now, I mean, this is, like, very complex when it comes to different ethnic arms organization and how they are fighting against each other or working with each other, and also looking, then into the history, how they formed, and then how they surrender, and then how they formed again, like, in a different like, it's really complex, but super interesting, super interesting. And, yeah, I just can't stop doing that.
Host 42:26
That's wonderful. And zooming out a bit on the question, looking at the field, the Burma studies field, among researchers, academics, analysts, etc, and especially those who are not Burmese, those that are outside the country, that are largely coming from Western contexts, that are engaged in studies this, this has always been a question, and it's, again, it's, this is a question that goes beyond Myanmar. This is a question of, to put it, just in in more general terms, which probably can be broken down. But of white academics and researchers studying non white places, this is an overall topic of conversation, and it's a topic in Burma studies, and it's more of a topic since the coup and since the time of conflict and the difficulty, on one hand, the difficulty of being able to do resource research and go on the ground, and on the other of just the ethics and the responsibility that one has in that position with knowing the place of privilege that one has in the outsider status. And so I wonder if you can speak on how you have come to understand those ethics, how the sensitivity you try to navigate, and maybe the concerns that you see at this time in that field in general.
Mia Kruska 43:44
Yeah. So actually, what I didn't mention, like, I'm also a member of the Myanmar Institute, and one year ago I was also like the first chair in the board. So the Myanmar Institute is, like a mostly German like or like academic organization with mostly German researchers or journalists. And, yeah, I mean, I was in the world when the coup happened, and there you really, like, I noticed there are two, two sides. And maybe it's also a generational thing. Like, I realized the more younger generation they are reflecting about their standpoint, or about, like, yeah, about their privilege and what it means to do research on Myanmar and with what ethics you have to follow. And it's not really like, I mean, it's not an easy task. I think there's no right solution fits all, but you have to be very sensitive, sensitive, sensible. I always make them up. Maybe both. You have to be both kind of. Like it's, yeah, actually, I would consider myself being more at that place and also doing my research along the Myanmar Thai border. In practice, doing interviews. It was not always easy, but I can get back to that later. I just wanted to, like, the other side, which I see are more the older researchers, they are not reflecting so much. They claim to have a neutral position. And I think, to be honest, for me, there is no neutral position. It's not there, like, I mean me as a researcher, I'm interpreting what I don't know, what I get out of the sources, if it's interviews or I don't know, paper from back in the days, or historical paper, like I'm interpreting it. So I have also to kind of reflect on who is interpreting it, and it's always from a Western perspective, and I can't get away by that. And depending on what you look at it, it's a good perspective, or maybe it's good to have, like outsider perspective for some things, that makes it more complicated. So I think it's always important to try to work in a Tun, like to work in a Tun Lim and not like to re check your analysis with someone from there, like or from Myanmar or who is more, see it from a different triangle. I mean, you can't always get every perspective, but at least you can try and so that's why, also, I work together with the Shan Women's Action Network. Because I think, yeah, they explained me things, they point out things I never would have seen without them. And yeah, when it comes also like, yeah, security is also a big thing. Like, how do you protect your sources? And you have to make sure they know, like, when they do an interview, that there is a security issue, because not everyone knows. And like, it's, it's a it's also very complex, but yeah, I think it's the right thing to do, and I think we also have to embrace mistakes. Because, yeah, as I said, There's not so one solution fits all and yeah, just to give an example, like I think I was also a bit naive. I remember when I arrived at the Myanmar, Thai border, and I wanted to do some interviews, but I just arrived, it was after COVID or still COVID ongoing, so people were also not super open and keen to interact. I tried to find some people in the Shan community to give, like to talk with, but many were very suspicious, because I said, like, yeah, actually here coming so many researchers, they wanted to talk to us, and then they are Using our traumas to climb their career level up, like they get a degree. We don't get a degree. We are just being here with our traumas and telling our traumas. It's a lot of effort, like, it's hard to face this experience, and why should we tell you? And I was like, Yeah, true. And yeah. Then they asked me, like, yeah, what do we get out from it? And then it was like, and I haven't, like, had a solution right away or, like, but actually it was such a good experience. Like, very uncomfortable, like, I was also very hit. Like, not that they rejected me. It was more that it was a moment I was like, Okay, I didn't reflect enough. They are so right. Like, so actually, like, yeah, we, we found an agreement. Like, I helped them, like, with, yeah, going to the border, delivering some goods, like, for the people in need, or, like, financing some stuff as much as I could. I mean, I was also suited. I haven't had a lot of money, so I had the privilege to travel there, you know? But, yeah, I think it's a lot about trust building, but meaningful trust building, like, not just pretending, you build trust. And yeah, this is something I always try, like, really say, like, showing people I have good intentions. I do mistakes. There are still some blind spots, but please show. Me, just tell me. And I mean, I think it's also sometimes a bit hard. Maybe it's something cultural, but as a German person like we have been known as being very honest and direct, maybe sometimes too direct, but I try and yeah, from what I experienced in Myanmar that it's sometimes a bit hard to talk directly like or to criticize, that I really urged everyone and still in my work, please tell me if you felt uncomfortable somewhere, or if you disagree like, I'm open, I'm here to learn. And I think, yeah, this is maybe also something I mean in general, and in these days where everything is so insecure and shifting that it's so important to listen to each other, like, with the open mind and open heart. Like, really, what is like, what does the other one experiencing? Or how and why and like, no matter if I disagree or not, like, I think we can always put this aside for the first step, like just listening and understanding, really understanding the other viewpoint, and then we can still disagree, but, but maybe we see another perspective. And I think reality is like a many different fragments of different realities. So yeah, I think many people lost that a bit along the way, and I think especially interculturally, it can be challenging. But, yeah, I don't know I'm also I just love it to see different perspective, because I learned something I really is, and I don't want to stop with this attempt, like, even if I'm getting old, I think because sometimes old people, sometimes they think they know how the world works. And I mean, I haven't been old yet, but maybe this is changing, but it's really something I want to keep, like being open, and I think also, while listening understanding, it's also a good baseline for building something better.
Host 52:30
Yeah, well said, and I certainly think that communication is, is it can be a miracle. You know, I wouldn't be running this platform if I didn't believe in the miracle that communication represents. I often go back to in my training, to the words of Caleb gutenho. Speaking is easy. Communication is a miracle. And this is the kind of expression that I think when I first hear I think, oh, that's kind of a clever, nice way to say it. And then as I went through my training, the underlying wisdom of that statement just came out more and more, the true miraculous nature of communication and how it's almost this mystical thing that's beyond our control to fabricate, and yet we can set up the conditions where it can, it can manifest and we can. It's almost like this spiritual entity we can just embrace and nurture, but not really control or create. And I also appreciate your description of this distinction and difference between the elder and the younger generation of Western or in this case, German Burma scholars and academics and analysts, and the nature of that divide. And I really appreciate that story you shared. I mean, it's a very vulnerable, even awkward story of the of of those that are in harm's way and that are expressing concern that their trauma is being used, is being squeezed out for a purpose of furthering a Western Career or an outsider's career, whoever that may be. I think that also there's at this current time, there's the privilege just really can't be overstated. Because when you look at Burmese, whether you're talking about Burmese journalists or artists or academics or professors or whoever it is, if they put their name on their work there, they could be in the direct line of fire, and their families could be in the direct line of fire, and the more attention that work gets, the more dangerous it is for them. And yet, whether, again, whether your career as a journalist, an artist, an academic, whatever it is your name attached to that work that is going to give you those opportunities and make you a known entity. And so, you know, there's this extraordinary unfairness of those, those Burmese professionals that are wanting to succeed at their field, and they have to decide either not to create or to create something safe. Put their name on it, or to create how they want, and then to remove their name, which gives them anonymity, or to go ahead the full direction and fearlessly, knowing the danger that puts them in. And you know, we have to say this is a danger that a lot of Westerners and outsiders that they're not facing the same way. And this is also the case where, you know, as we're talking about trying, well, this is the sensitive nature and task ahead of us. Because, on one hand, we certainly want to gain an understanding of the conflict and of natural disasters. We want you know, just as there were comprehensive needs assessments, as they were, as far as they were able to be carried out after Nargis. Those have to be taken place after the earthquake. And we're already hearing stories, and some of the people that we talked to that these needs assessments are not being carried out. We're not knowing there are large swaths of sagain, even as the regime is trying to relabel this, the Mandalay earthquake, to be able to take attention from sagain. There are vast swaths of sagain where we don't know what happened. Those needs assessments need to be carried out. Analysis has to be done. And so there is this tricky relationship between wanting to do the work for the benefit of understanding, which can bring in the appropriate aid or international response or or impacting that narrative that we're talking about, while, on the other hand, realizing these are real people, and just as we in our past interviews, we might talk to someone who's reflecting on, you know, air strikes or land mines or Various other conflict that's going on, collapsed economy, displacement, et cetera. And we might be talking numbers and bird's eye view and the nature of the changing conflict, but we always have to go back and remind ourselves these are real lives at stake when we're talking about airstrikes. These are real women, children, elders, entire populations that are are being impacted daily by this absolute terror that's taking place. And one, and to some degree, one has to, one has to separate. You know, you can't do your job if you're feeling everything, if you're if you're every analyst, every interview, every analysis, every photo that you're looking at, if whatever your field, if you're feeling everything while you do it, you can't do your job, and your job is more important at times than your own personal feelings, because you you want to get you want to make that wider impact and get it out. So you do have to separate to some extent, but then you also have to come back, and you have to be in touch with your feelings, and you also have to be in touch with those that are supplying this information and how you do have a privilege and to some degree, of being able to walk away from it in ways they never will be. And yet their story does matter for whatever the impact it is you're trying to have. So these are all really tricky things to navigate, I think,
Mia Kruska 57:59
totally like what I also realized right after the coup, like, how difficult it is for Burmese people to be vocal, like, against the military coup. I mean, even here in Germany, like, you could say, like, oh yeah, they are in Germany. They are safe. They are not because they're worrying about their friends and children. And they also don't know, do I go back or not? Do I have to go back at one point because I don't get asylum or whatever. So what I realized, and frustrated me a lot is that they're the cool silencing them down like it's and then also, like in my personal experience after the coup, like people ask me, yeah, can you do an interview? Can you can you be vocal here? But I don't want to speak for others like but after the coup, I have been in this situation a couple of times. I don't want to speak for Burmese people, because I'm not Burmese, so but then it's also very hard to find people who want to be vocal and critical against the military, and that's really, really challenging. And then additionally, I'm yeah, sometimes, like, when, like, a newspaper asked me, like, Hey, can you can we do interview with you? Like, I'm always trying to ask, say, like, yeah, you can do but first, please ask. Like, I have one person I always ask because she's very vocal here in Germany, but she's also very busy, but I'm sometimes kind of tell the journalist, like, here I have these contact or these contact, please talk to her, because she's Burmese. But also, like, when it came to our our interview, when you asked me, Do you want to join the podcast, I was even questioning like, should I should I not do? Uh, what's what's the matter? But, yeah, then I was going through like, all the podcast episodes, and I was like, Okay, no, it's very diverse. Like, I'm like, you interview a lot of various people, and so it's really about my perspective, and not about Myanmar in general, or, like, asking, what is the situation on the ground in Sagai? Because I don't really know, yeah, but it's challenging. Oh, yeah, and I wanted to add something, yeah, what you said, like, in regard to this uncomfortable experience I had with the interview, like, where I got question, like, why should we do this interview? And actually later on, I was also really like, that's super cool. They have the courage to say that, and that's really cool there. So self confidence, self confident about, like, saying, like, No, why should I face my trauma for your career? And then I was like, actually, I see a big change. There a positive change that it's not like, oh, there comes a white Westerner or white nose. Should we do it? Because sometimes, like, living in Myanmar, I felt a bit like, sometimes, like a like, Princess, you know, like, I don't know, I was living in a very local neighborhood in Yangon, and always when I went to work, like, I don't know, everyone was so friendly clapping, like giving me bananas And like serving me tea I was not able to pay for. And, you know, I felt a bit ashamed because I didn't want to have this extra treatment. And I also felt sure it was maybe out of a generosity, like, bad, yeah, I think it was because I was a Westerner, you know. And sometimes, yeah, I felt like, isn't it a bit humiliating? Or like they were kind of seeing me above them, and I don't want to be like, above or prior to them, and actually like seeing now this strengthening courage and being Walker, saying, No, we see these hierarchies now we reflect about these hierarchies. And no, I'm not doing that. And I was like, perfect actually, like, I see good change, even though it's a bit uncomfortable. But I think we it's for a better change. There have to be more and more these uncomfortable situations to also find Yeah, better future.
Host 1:02:53
Yeah, that's really true. Yeah, yeah. I want to close by going back to what you started out this interview and talking about and what the start of your Burma journey was, and that was this experience with monks and nuns. And I think if there's one part of the Burma experience that is really prone to misunderstanding and romanticize, romanticization, or Orientalist thinking, etc, it's the Buddhist element and imagining what a Buddhist monastery must be in Myanmar. And I'm reflecting on this even as just to bring a bit of pop culture. And I just watched the third season of the HBO show the White Lotus, and which is a popular show here. And I think the first season was in Hawaii, the second was in Italy, and the third was in Thailand. And I think the show does do a really good job of bringing those kind of local elements to life and making you feel the surroundings. And I thought they did that in Thailand, with the exception of there was a plot line in this third season that was about a meditation center, a monastery, a Buddhist experience of the guests. And it was just atrocious, you know, for all of the years that I've spent in mainly Burmese, but also Thai monasteries and meditation centers, the way that this was portrayed, the the physical environments, the monks, the teachings, the understanding of dharma and of Buddhism, it was, it was a Western fever dream of an imagination of what one would like. It's just it's all over the place. And this is, and there are so many pop culture reference references that we can bring in that really get Burmese and Southeast Asian Buddhism wrong and really appalling degrees. But the reason why I'm calling on this one is this is a show that has prided itself on such a level of authenticity and getting things right, and making these kind of localities really come to life in authentic ways that it just really stands out that this is one thing that they just have absolutely missed and fallen into that Western trap of seeing it the way that that one wants to in its cold. Rather than the way it actually is. And so with that background and context, I want to prompt you to talk about and perhaps you can start by sharing your your understandings of Buddhism before you came, as it came to you in Germany, and then as you, as you came part of this monastic caravan rolling through the country, and you were experiencing, interacting with Burmese monks and nuns in an everyday basis, how that diverged from your your your conditioned understanding before then, and what real lessons you gained from that actual experience that you carry to this day?
Mia Kruska 1:05:35
Yeah, I had to laugh a lot because it's a really, really good question, because I, before coming to Myanmar, I was not really religious, and I'm still not, I would say. But back in the days, I was looking for religion kind of so I was like, okay, yeah, Buddhism could be a really good religion to me, or, like, could give me guidance, and then, I mean, it was more accident that I end end up, or, like, visited this monastery, and I could stay there and traveling with the monks and nuns, but the real life was so different, so different from what I was expecting. I mean, it started with like that, so many monks had several cell phones. Like, I mean, I was like, like, they had three cell phones. And I was like, What are you doing with these three cell phones? Or, I remember also that every morning we had to wake up at four or five to meditate for an hour, and then everyone was sitting there meditating, and then there was a nun doing selfies like playing some jingles on her iPad. And no one cared. No one cared. And I was like, Yeah, but we are meditating. It's such a holy environment. You have to be quiet. But I was like, but actually, then they said, like, no, life happens. They are always distraction. When you meditate, it shouldn't be. It doesn't matter, right? You know? So I was like, yeah, interesting, interesting perspective. Like, like, the concept I had about Buddhism and meditating was very different. And in Myanmar, I I experienced a very practical approach, like also sometimes very in a very funny way. I also remember, like, two years later, I visited another monastery which was a bit more strict in meditating. And I also remember that during the meditation, like many nuns were fighting all the time, all the time, it was like, why can they just fight so mad and not being ashamed? And I don't know for me, it was very hard, very hard to meditate like there were no incense, like with the nice order, like there were other orders by meditating and but they also said, like, Yeah, we don't. We are not ashamed of our body, like it's with what do you identify with? And it's not the body. Like the body is not it will be gone. Like beauty will be gone. Everything will be gone, like everything changes all the time. And so why should I feel embarrassed for something my body does, which is not me? And yeah, I don't know. I was like, Okay, this is such a different kind of approach in Buddhism than we are see what we see here in western world. And I mean, these were like moments where I was like, wow, that's that's really cool. This practical Buddhism is really cool. But there are also other experience I had, especially as a woman, where I was like, I think I can't, like, claim myself as a Buddhist ever, because it's also like a human made concept or, I mean, sure there is also some female influence, I guess, but it's also a bit hard tracing that back, because it was hidden or not written down, like In what way nuns were forming Buddhism, but it's a more or less male made concept, and women are not seen equal to men. And I was like, Okay, this is like a religious institution as well, and I don't find a home here. Like, I don't feel equal. And yeah, this is not Yeah, where I feel home. Sure, like Buddhist teaching gives me a lot, but I think there are also some limitations, and then realizing that I'm always end up like, okay, but. I'm also a Westerner, maybe I don't understand that. It's like a bit of a dilemma. Also saying, like, I can't criticize that because I don't maybe fully understand or, I mean, I haven't find a solution yet for that, but, yeah, I don't know. I think when it comes, like, basic or for me, like, human values and how I want to treat humans, it should be equal. And this is, like, my guidance, kind of, like how I see things, or, yeah, no matter, like the cultural background.
Host 1:10:41
Yeah, yeah, a lot to hold a lot of reflections there, and definitely something that needs to have a wider, deeper understanding than how it's come to the West in the past number of decades and even centuries. I'd like to close by asking you, because much of this conversation has centered around this concept of being an ally and what that role is, and many things that have to be balanced in one's being and memories experiences that have come from Myanmar at this time, I'd like to close by prompting you to share any kind of message or reflection that you'd like to leave on that topic, as we're still seeing the devastation that has been resulting, not just from the coup now, not just from the earthquake, but from the military's response to the earthquake that you know, we all knew it was going to play out this way, and it's every bit as bad, if not worse, than what we're seeing and and here we Are as allies in somewhat privileged positions, but in having roles to play, big or small in terms of how we respond.
Mia Kruska 1:11:51
Yeah, being allies. I mean, it means so many different things. I mean, I think it's when you have Burmese people around you just show empathy and solidarity. The 2% ask how they are, like on a very personal level, I guess. But yeah, also, I mean, especially now in this situation where it's such a debasing earthquake and many people are really in need, it is a financial thing. Like, it's important to donate because, yeah, I don't know. Just re sharing, like, I don't know, a picture from a destroyed monastery doesn't do anything to the people there. Like, Sure, sometimes we're going to caught up in these pictures and re sharing. Sure, it's like bringing the message out to the world, but just, I don't know, we are privileged, and we have more financial capacities and resources right now, and I think it's especially now important to give it to the grass root organizations. Yeah, that people have enough water and just having the basic resources to start all over again and somehow. I mean, how can they be self reliant, or self like, how can they create their own structure we already have? If they not, if they don't have water, like, yeah, so I think it's especially important to to donate. I mean, even little amounts. I mean, I don't know, 10 euro is so much more in Myanmar than here. And do you gonna miss this 10 euro in the end of the month. I think most of us not so much. So even 10 Euro make a little difference. That's the last message I have. And maybe, yeah, listening to each other like, really, I find it so I mean, it's so essential. It's so essential in so many ways, not looking to Myanmar, looking like, just looking through like, to your surrounding and the people around you. And I think especially in these these times, which are very challenging, and I guess many people feel insecure.
Host 1:14:29
We're glad to have had you with us for this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast. You might know that beyond sharing stories and conversations on this platform, we also carry out humanitarian projects through our nonprofit mission better Burma, as we all know, the challenges these days are vast, but so too are the opportunities to provide meaningful support. Your contributions go towards supporting critical initiatives such as providing food, medical supplies and basic necessities to internally displaced persons in conflict zones. You can help to fund healthcare. Save lives and bring dignity to those in need. Your generosity also supports education efforts for children, helps mobile medical clinics and provides care packages to political prisoners, just to name a few of the many programs we sponsor, you can support these impactful efforts and directly contribute to our projects which uplift and empower those most affected by the crisis in Myanmar, visit betterburma.org/donation to join in this effort.