Transcript: Episode #305: Roots Run Deep
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:57
Thank you for joining us for the next hour or two in this episode of Inside Myanmar podcast, in an age of nearly limitless content, we appreciate that you're choosing to take valuable time out of your day to learn more about what is happening in Myanmar. It's vital for the story to be heard by people around the world, and that starts right now with you.
We're joined in this episode of insight, Myanmar podcast with Paul Sein Twa, and this is he. Paul is an environmentalist and and we could say an environmentalist extraordinaire, as we'll learn some truly incredible work that he and his team have been doing in katole and environmental preservation and beyond, environmental preservation also looking at establishing peace between the different local indigenous communities there and in The wider scope of Myanmar, really a microcosm of a kind of optimism that we can hope to see going forward. So we're going to learn all about this project and also about his own life and background in creating this Paul, thanks for taking the time to sit with us.
Paul Sein Twa 3:33
Thank you. Thank you for these opportunities.
Host 3:36
So the work you've done at Kisan has been truly remarkable, and we'll get into that in a moment, but I want to start the conversation by learning about you and your background and how that led to this truly incredible organization and really movement that you've started. And this part of Myanmar, can we first learn about who you are and your background growing up?
Paul Sein Twa 3:58
Yeah, I was growing up along the border Burma, Thailand. The region is the salary region in southeast Burma, yes, since I was in high school. Yeah, I have witnessed the deforestation happening from the logging kind of activities along the border that time, Thai kind of government had a kind of agreement with the military government to sell timbers to Thailand. So then along the border, we have seen, you know, massive deforestation. And after. A few years we've seen the big environmental impact, especially the flooding that happened that year, I think around 19, late 90s. Sorry, I think early early 90s. Sorry, it's early 90s, late 90s, late 80s and early 990s and it's, it's, you know, like, yes, kind of struck me. And I think many of the communities living along the river there that this was never, you know happened before, and it was due to this massive, uncontrolled and cutting down off the tree from the forest. So, yeah, I was interested. And then I but I, of course, that time, I didn't know about the environment, the word environment, because the environment is coming from the west, but for us, we know that something is not right by destroying our land, our forest, and that we have to do something. Yeah, that that is kind of my background, why I'm interested in environment. And later, after I graduated from high school, and then the following that we remember very clearly that after a few years of logging, then we we also have seen the the military operation, and the military kind of using the logging road as a kind of way of transporting their military equipments and advancing their troops into our current territories. So that led to the fall of my net law in early 90s, around 9495 so it is clear that the destruction of the environment that led to the weakening of our, you know, position, our resistant positions against the military dictator, and then kind of becomes a tool for the military, both, you know, gaining foreign currency as well as gaining their access and to territories, our areas. And then they also, after, you know, we moved to the Thai refugees camp. And we also, a few years later, we heard about the, you know, the dam, the hydropower dam project on the Salomon River, also being published in the media and newspapers. And you can connect that to the what we had experienced in the past, like first logging their military attacks and control and then their development project like hydropower there. So that then that was why it motivated me and also other colleagues to, you know, come together and form our environmental organization called Kesan.
Host 8:47
The work that you do with K San, it fits at this intersection of so many different values and ecosystems, we can say you've just laid out many of them there, the resistance to dictatorship, indigenous rights and the general conservation and being able to continue to not have forced displacement of communities, all of these things go into the work you're doing. You're not just it's not just two birds with one stone. It's five or six birds with one stone that we're looking at a couple of the other elements and aspects that you haven't touched upon that I wonder if we could look at now beyond this kind of wider scope of looking at peoples and communities and the country and peace as a whole, if we can get even more granular and look at the relationship with the land, and as we talk about what the relationship with the land, on one hand, We're talking the spiritual, and the other hand, we're talking the material, how people live off the land, how they use the bamboo, how they how they're able to forge a sustainable lifestyle away from from modern communities, and being able to take what they need from the forest. And so before we get into this macro, which we will next, I wonder if you can sketch out. Either from personal anecdotes or from those of your friends or what you've seen members of the community. And these both spiritual connections with the land and the forest, as well as how people live with the forest and on the forest.
Paul Sein Twa 10:16
Yes, our especially now for our current indigenous people, we definitely have a very strong and close connection with our land, as we call it. Our goal is our ancestral land or territory or ancestral domain. In some countries, they call it, it is very evident that when we and other people were displaced from, you know, our own territories, and that caused so many detrimental To to our communities, our people, spiritually, mentally and physically, because we, because our close connection to our lands, and because, also we are mostly agrarian, like using the land to grow our food and, you know, other needs so the displacement and and also being forced into the refugees camp caused the disconnection and and then the distance And the disconnection had also caused the deterioration of our culture and practice, and that that's also again, then started to have also kind of other impacts that our younger generation, our younger people, do not Learn to kind of practice, you know, our traditional knowledge and practices, then that it also caused the environmental we call it deterioration, and also spiritually. And you know, the spiritual kind of relationship with our land also has been, we can call it diminishing. So that is why, when we talk about environmental preservation, we we need to look for the right way to do it and how to do it. And that is where we said that, you know, like, in order to do that effectively, we have to reconnect ourselves, rebuild our relationship with our land, our kind of relationship with this, The this, we can call it in our like indigenous peoples kind of belief, like the supernatural, the this, the god of mountains, rivers, forests, the land, and then there, you know, because The Spirit in our belief, they are the guardians of, you know, the the land, the forest, that river, the stream, the animals. They are higher than our human being. And our human being is the guardian of those you know, like living things or non living things you know in the physical world. So for us, is in English, we use the word stewardship, right? We are the custodian, stewardship of the this land forest. So in order to use because we have to also use them for our survival or for our communities to thrive. But to do that, we have to have a relationship, a respectful relationship, or reciprocal relationship, with them by asking them for the permission to, let's say we wanted to clear a land to grow agriculture our community have to perform the richer ceremony to ask for permission from the garden of the forest that we're going to clear the land we're going to grow rise here. And we, you know, ask for your permission and your blessing. But so meaning we trying to. To in today's term, we'd say that we are making a contract with our spiritual the God of the land, or the spirit of the land, right? And that mean we have to follow our agreement, that we don't take more than we need we don't violate the terms we agree. For example, when we do burning the plot, we make sure that the fire doesn't cross the fire break fire line so it is control within the clear land area and and then when, after we finish the harvest and things like that, we give thanks to the God of the land, the spirit of the land, we say thank you. And we even, along you know the way from clearing the land to harvesting, there is a ceremonies that, for example, we have to apologize to the spirit that, oh, because of our burning, because our clearing, we might have killed the unintended animals. So, so many taboos, so many practice like that. So meaning, this is the relationship with the land that we use, right? So when we look at all these things, and we said that okay to do environmental conservation or preservation is to go back to our indigenous way of doing thing by, you know, reviving our knowledge and our practices that mean we don't need to bring in new things, these things people have been doing for generations. And it is evident that even despite so many challenges, war, displacement, etc, etc, but we still have good forests. We still have, you know, animals, wild animals around us. You know evidence from our camera trap survey, for example, you can still find animals, not very from from our communities. So this is where we kind of live in harmony with nature, and when we introduce this, when we kind of strengthen this kind of belief and practices and values, and it is very powerful to bring together and mobilize people to come together and initiate, you know, the seven piece Park, for example. So this is, you know, how we see things and how we do things.
Host 17:55
Thank you for that. And I'm wondering, do you feel comfortable sharing any personal anecdote that would be of a spiritual nature, of your own relationship to the forest?
Paul Sein Twa 18:06
Yeah, even though I'm kind of coming from the Christian family, but definitely my root and my community so much you know, are the community that live in the forest or dwell in the forest, and that's where we have a, you know, close relationship with our forests and land. And then, because of, as I said, I grew up seeing, you know, the destruction of our home, our forest when I was in high school. That's definitely hurt me personally to see, you know, many trees being cut down, and you know the flash flood and the landslides, and, you know, like this. It's kind of striking me a lot, and I still have the memories of that. But the story that, you know, my father told me that still kind of remain in my, in my kind of head, and, you know, like slight, kind of a vision, you know, that one day we wanted to kind of, you know, have that kind of ideal, you know, situation or ideal environment, like When we were young, there was so much you know, richness and and food. You know, in the community, you can catch fish from the river. In your kitchen, you have dry fish. You have fish space. You have you know. Many things. You just go and throw and nest and, you know, do fishing, it's enough. And then my father also told me that, when you know he was young, he you know, he also was a hunter at that time. Also, he said, you know, like the wild, you know, animals, for example, the the cow, the bantang, right? They are in herd, you know. And they are hundreds and 1000s of them. And they are migrating from the north, you know, from kayaker ini state, you know, coming down to Thailand, and then cross into Korean areas and then grew up. So that's the migratory line, or roots that's happening. And it is seasonal because of the they were going for food, and then also for Salt Lake, because they are different region. So this is we saw the in the saloon River Basin. We can see, you know, those animals and then. But the thing is, now a day, or, you know, when developments came like more more dissolved boats, more roads, and, you know, more things like establishment, then we tend to cut the corridor right, and those animals are kind of the territories have been fragmented into, you know, different parts, or different parts like that, so they can no more migrate. So we still have those animals that I mentioned. But the thing is, we don't, you know, have strategic plan, you know, to also consider the animals, our neighbors as also part of us. Because we human being, we also need to live. We need to do live in but animals also need to also survive. They need to eat, they need to travel. Then, you know, it's part of that nature. So that's why our vision is like because of the story that my father told me, and still I have the memory of when we were young that you know, so much fish in the river, so much animal you travel along the border the river. You see the the bucking deer. You can see the wild boar, the wild pigs, soon, plenty you know, like and the green trees, the teak trees, and so that's why, you know, like forest, the vision is that okay, you know, if we can do it, I mean, we collectively do it, we will still continue to develop, to thrive, along with our, you know, neighbors, while Animal Forest trees, you know, like that, so that the animal still can roam freely, and then we, we still can also, like, receive benefit from them. So that is the the dream that also what you call it, yeah, lead to, you know, the selling Peace Park initiative, that we have a landscape approach, that we communities come together and develop A long term vision and plan to rebuild the connections with nature, and also to develop to reconnect the corridors, also for for wildlife and for also ecological services that We need in today's situation we are facing, also climate kind of change impacts, right? So the initiative should also address to you know that also.
Host 24:35
It's remarkable as you're talking the one word that comes in mind with your these concerns, as you're describing them, is harmony. Is that wanting to bring things into harmony, harmony between people, between people and between groups of people, between people and animals, between people and nature, meaning the water below the sky, above the trees that are growing on at the insects that are. Thriving in an ecological system. And so at a very micro, granular, granular level, you're speaking much on the topic of harmony, and wanting to create a system that can bring harmony to these, too many of these diverse entities, including, we can say, the invisible spirits that also inhabit and the gratitude and relationship social contract with these, these, these invisible beings that are believed to be guardians and be living there as well. And and so this is a micro level of what you're doing with seeing this sense of harmony. And what I appreciate about what you've shared thus far is that you're, you're, you're very careful in your terminology of using, sometimes you're using words that are, are seem to be harkening back to to being a young person living in this community, and just describing what you're seeing. But then you're also referencing, well, in western circles, or in academic circles, or in conservation, we actually call it this, and so you're you're describing something similar in these different spheres and circles and and really beautifully illustrating how, how it's how the same thing is looked at differently, by whether you're a villager who has known nothing but the forest that you Live, or whether you're a PhD academic and environmentalism and studying trends around the world and bringing that analysis to Burma. So there's, there's really quite a bit of these overlapping spheres layers that we can look at the situation and see the micro and the macro in one particular anecdote. And this is all leading to, as we're teasing this development of the of caisson and the selling Peace Park and the unprecedented campaign really that you, that you waged in that and what resulted in what you were able to build and create. And so let's go into that personal story now, and you're describing how at this time, you're still a young person, you're having stories from your father, talk about the intergenerationally, the land that you live and concerns that you're seeing with the flash flooding and but you don't really know where this fits into these wider narratives, but you know you want to do something about it, especially when you see that these there's this double whammy of these, of local environments being destroyed, of disharmony being created, of people's suffering and the military benefiting from all about the military regime being the instigator and then the primary benefactor of all of this destruction and disharmony that is taking place. And so bring us back to those early days of your life when these these concepts started to come, and how you then went from being a passive observer or someone expressing concern to actually starting to move, to take action, which would then develop in this unprecedented peace park.
Paul Sein Twa 27:58
When we start our environmental campaign, or our environmentalism, environmental activism, yeah, it's, it's, it is kind of usually misunderstood by people or by people in the communities because of the environmental conservation usually comes from the West, the Western kind of concept or kind of philosophy that, you know, we are, tree huggers, you know we, we are, you know, prohibitant, the cutting, you know, down of trees for agriculture like that. So for people, he said, they know we, we people resist to that because of the they are saying that, Oh, we were going to, you know, like a stop people doing Tonya in our language we call coup or rotational farming, because rotational farming is a type of an uplander, a cultural system. So this is this. This actually rotational farming. Agriculture is a very primitive system, agriculture system, and it's and it, it is full of knowledge. It is full of what you call a detailed, you know, practices, but it is very easy to misunderstood, you know, by, you know, Western academics and so. So we have to try to, you know, explain to community, no, we are not against the the. System, or the rotational farming system, because, as, as I said earlier, we have to take from nature in order to survive. But at the same time, we have to to have to, you know, give back. We also have to maintain, you know, our reciprocal relationship so we have in our current elders kind of teaching or poems like Audi guitar, Lee on yakato, Audi guitar, lay on yakuto. Gui, no so meaning, when we want to eat frog, we have to also take care of the habitat, like the rocks, you know the you know the ecosystems. And if we want to eat fish, we ought to have to take care of their pool. So this is, you know, like our duty, you know, as someone who take from nature. So this is the our philosophy in our work. So we use that because, actually our indigenous people, knowledge practices, their moral their values, everything nowadays we can See we can take from our poems, sort of our oral kind of teaching. So that is very kind of I, you know, the more I learn, the oral teaching poems, you know, there are so much that teach us how we do things today awesome, and how we can relate to the new development, link to the global movement like climate change, and, you know what, biodiversity conservation. So this, that's where we have to go back so to our root, as I said, and we have to learn from our elders, our knowledge holders, right? And they're trying to interpret that into the current situation. So when we introduce that, when we teach that, when we share that, when we bring people to share this knowledge and practice that is part of the community, you know, self strengthening, self empowerment, but we have to facilitate it, so this way, then the people are trying. People started to let, Ah, okay, Sam or Paul, or, you know, my colleagues, they are not, you know, coming to stop from practicing our traditional way of agriculture, right? So this is where we kind of get more people participation, and we also build up more community ownership in environmental management, natural resource management, for example. So we trying to support communities kind of self identified issues, problems and solutions, like supporting them to establish the community forest, their kind of fish conservation zones, you know, like their small activities that strengthen the community to maintain their kind of relationship with the environment, the forest, the land, right? And then we also support them to revitalize their their goal system, their customary Land Systems and governance systems like you know, in another hand, we also work with the KNU to also have the land policy that recognized the customary tenure, right? So? So that means we empower a community to to, like, revitalize their old systems and in places where they know more, you know, have the system like that, then they can develop a new ones that also still, you know, like apply the regulations or the principles. So we have to, we have been doing that. For, yeah, many years. And then there, I think this is the things that also in it's also, like, impressed the our current leaders that can new leaders, especially in the district level, because of the in our community, you know, like work, you know, we have to, you know, build relationship. We have to engage the leaders from different levels, and they kind of see, you know, the benefits, you know, not just from, like, environmentally, but politically and also socially. So that is where, you know, like the leaders, kind of we can say in a simple term that they have trust in our work, and they have trust also in the communities, also their intention to also like, sustainably use and manage their land and Environment and Natural Resources. So, so this, this kind of, it's what we call it, the foundation that we have built, seen with kind of, you know, initiated community project, we can say, in 2004 you know, in our work in the in woodraw, in fit brigade areas. So, yeah, and political, also, situation changed, and the we had, you know, the Korean national union had a bilateral ceasefire agreement in early 2012 2012 right in January. Then you can see there's a new kind of political landscape. You know, the conflict and relationship dynamics change also significantly when they initiated that and then the, you know, like people in our current areas, especially in the mudra district, you know, for many decades, they have been facing the atrocities, the human rights violation, the displacements, you know, you name all those violations they have experience. They have been and then they still have so many military bases and camps in and near their territories, right that when we had the, you know, work in the area we we have around 80 army camps.
Military army camps. I mean, that is like 83 or something before the and before and during the ceasefire time. So so many, and especially when they build a road from north to south, east to west, so many camps along the roads. So the situation changed. The political situation changed because of the ceasefire, and we are facing the, of course, the direct kind of attacks, confrontation like that decreased, has decreased. But there are others threat, like the military trying to build, improve the road, you know. And then the other proposal, like, you know, more mining concessions are being planned, new towns and hydropower dams. These are, you know, like a new threat. We know that it's been in the past, but because of active war, could not implement those things, right? And we've been also opposing the dams and other extractive activities in our area anyway, but because of the ceasefire, they change their kind of dynamics, and then we are facing that and and the same at the same time, the we say that time the government trying to say that, okay, we are doing development for peace. And then we are, yeah, we for us is we definitely don't agree with that. You know, there is no development for peace. You. So that's where, you know, like we the KNU leaders in the district, they found that, how do we kind of counter, you know, the fake, you know, the artificial kind of initiatives that will harm us and will kind of what do You call it?
Call it, you know, those, those developments, proposals that not you know, coming from or not resonating or reflecting the real needs of the people. How can we counter that narratives? How can they counter that proposal? Right? So we need to have something, right? So then the, you know, the leaders invite us, and we have meetings, we discuss, and later, you know, the concepts of the peace parts kind of came up, right? They integrate, you know, the various aspect into the Peace Park initiative, right? So that's why we had a piece. There. We have the park is the concept of conservation. And then we have the salving, the salvation is, is well known international rivers, right? So we trying to connect those things and define what we wanted to achieve, right? Trying to kind of solicit the different ideas and had to connect, you know, our movement, our movement movements, because we have political movements to achieve our self determination, right, and our self determination right here so politically, and also for the indigenous people as well, the indigenous peoples, you know, should have the right to their land and natural resources. You know, then should be able to continue to practice their indigenous knowledge and systems. And also like, then we, when we talk about peace, we have to also, like, define what is peace also. So we have been linked the peace with self determination because we don't have p because our, you know, right to self determination is being violated. You have to connect peace with that, and then we have to also define it that also in the very simple way, so that our community to understand self determination means we have the right to govern our own territories. We have the right to develop our territories in line with our culture, in line with our values. So we link that. And then when we talk about environment conservation, we also define it in a way that based on our indigenous way, based on many, based on our indigenous way. It's not only to reject the western science kind of way, but we trying to use the concept of looking at environmental conservation with the two eyes, the science and also the western science, or the indigenous science, two things together that we have to kind of work together, because there are new technologies that we also benefit us, that we can use to integrate into our system also. So we don't right away, reject that, and then the all of these also interconnected with our culture. So the the culture aspect is the things that will kind of, what do you call it? The backbones that bring the initiative together, binding together like piece of self determination, environmental integrity and our cultural survival. So these three things have to. Interconnected. So this we build the Peace Park initiative.
Host 45:07
It's remarkable how many threads are coming together in those stories and threads that are not just looking at one community against another, I think a simplistic way to look at the problems that are there, and what you've tried to do with them is looking at the ethnic people versus the bamar military and just trying to have some kind of protection for those local peoples against military incursions. Certainly that's part of it, but there's so many other elements that you've described of just simply the kind of arrangements and agreements you've had to make with local farmers that themselves see you as a potential threat before they get to know you better of feeling that you're well, if you're an environmentalist, then you must not really see our job living off the land as something that is integrated into an environmental system, but you're actually no this. Again, this is going to the harmony of all things that you're promoting, as well as the KNU, which is the an ethnic resistance organization, the militarized and armed that, I think, from an outsider's point of view, can see where obvious clashes would be. But again, with this approach and harmony that you have in trying to to find different, really extraordinary ways that so many different peoples and non peoples can can can come together and try to enjoy and live in and nurture a collective sense of harmony and showing how it's in everyone's best interest. Maybe not the military is who just want to exploit everything for yet more greed and power and control and suffering but but certainly many others that that there is an alignment you and you've achieved something that I think that in other more developed countries that they haven't really found their own own way yet, to be able to bring so many different layers and groups together and show how there could be an integration that serves all of these different interests and needs of different communities and peoples and again, non peoples, to operate in such a way that everyone it's a win win, and it's a massive ecological system that everyone has a place in and and that also connects to your past, and that's where I also want to go with in that long description that you just shared, one of the things I bookmarked that I wanted to come back to, I found very interesting in referencing the work that you're doing in the present and the future. You very often reference your particular family tree, as well as the more general ancestry, Koran ancestry, that you're calling upon, and that is guiding what you're trying to create as a preservation of that past and peoples and language and culture that's contained within it. And one of the things you said that I really, really, really resounded in my mind was you would reference these poems, that these poems that had a place in your childhood and in stories that were told and passed down, and how these poems held this knowledge that guided what you were doing forward. And I wonder if there are any poems that come to mind now that you might be able to share with us.
Paul Sein Twa 48:22
And yes, yes, thank you. There's so many poems and like, yeah, if it related to the let me think of an example. If we think of the something that related to, you know, climate change impact, or, you know, the kind of natural disaster and, like, kind of prepare, preparedness for risk reduction. If we talk about mitigation, things like that, we have so many poems and for example, regard to the kind of how current people should prepare themselves so that they can overcome the kind of, you know, external or natural disasters, like, for example, the elders said that we have to grow varieties of crops, you know, include tubers, not just the fruit, you know, we have to grow, also the crops that have the roots and tubers, you know, like this. So if we have so many kinds, even if we have crops failure, failure, we. Can also mean from changes of weather and climate change impact, we still can eat others. So that's definitely a lot in our poems like that, and when we talk about wildlife conservation, we we have so many, you know, like poems that tell us not to kill, not to, you know, destroy them, because those animals represent the different values. And, for example, don't kill this bird, because this is a sign of peace. This is a sign of the good harvest, or they are the spirit of the rice, also want some kinds of wild, wild animals. They are also bringing back the the prosperity, right? And, for example, like tigers, of course, the from the conservationist perspective, you know they are important species also. You know that when you have tigers, meaning you need to have good forest, sure, you need to have lots of prayer for Tiger to survive. But for us, for indigenous people we have when we have things like that that talk about when we see the tiger near our village, or when we see the tiger killed the domestic animals, that's a sign of something's going wrong in village. Oh, I see. So this is kind of related to, you know, moral, you know thing, and then also it's a sign of judgment, something like you need to take action. You need to, you know, find out and make sure that you know you you cannot resolve the something happened in the village. Not so. So this is you know, what we know I personally learned. And then the the the one poem that really like stick to my head for a long time, like we said. It said, while other rule, you know, that country with what they call it. They say money. They use money, or they develop the, you know, the economy. Korean will rule the country by, you know, rice. So that is simple, but I relate that reference that to to the current, you know, situation and the movement that people build around the globe. The the nearest term that I can relate is the food sovereignty, right? So the main thing is we have enough food for everyone. We don't look at how many economic growth, how many GDP, how we make progress with GDP, but we look at, you know, how much we harvest from the land, and then that food sovereignty, it's linked to environment, linked to our culture, you know, linked to the Market, everything, and the other ones that, well, people ruled by law with law Korean people ruled by poems. So that means poems is it's like our Bible, our indigenous peoples Bible, our our law book. So that's why our initiative is also now to kind of, you know, trying to document the poems that will teach us how we do the right thing in terms of water management, forest management, land management and other, you know, like we. You know, things that current people like you know, in their daily lives, in their social life, you know, that moral that, like a judicial, everything we had to, you know, relate back to her poems.
Host 55:17
Right? That's, that's really wonderful. You described how the San wing, Peace Park, the ideology behind what formed it, and what the aspirations were the people that came together, what you were trying to do based on your understanding of the problems of particular region where you're personally from, as well as where these fit into wider issues of conservation and all of this linking back to harmony, I think we haven't yet brought listeners an understanding of what the Peace Park actually is now in tangible terms and practical terms, what region it covers, What how it operates?
Paul Sein Twa 55:57
The peace park the core things of the Peace Park is the governance, right? We without the governance, you know, like put in place and functioning, it will be like paper park or other had. How do you use the word Tiger, paper or paper tiger, you know, that kind of term, so many of them. So that is the governance of it. We, you know, like through the consultation. Of course, the KNU is definitely led the process, and then the K san is, you know, supporting that facility that that so yeah, and I want to also clarify that the San PS Park, this not just k San. It is a collaboration. With the KNU, with the local communities, indigenous leaders and other CSO as well, coming together. So we bring together, you know, the landscape of more than 5000 square kilometers, right? I think 5400 or 5600 now think square kilometers is huge area. And then we demarcated. Thought, you know, like trying to draw the mats of the ancestral territories. So we have more than now, I think, 300 or something, within the Peace Park. So those are the indigenous, you know, people's goal, customary territory. And that's where we wanted to kind of base, you know, our Peace Park governance based on that. And then at the same time we also have the other area that are under the administration of the KNU like, for example, they'll reserved forest. You have wild sanctuaries, right? And so on, so on. So we trying to, you know, put that together, connect them together. And then we have to build a governance system that, you know, like, represent and respond to, to the the needs of, you know, this different land. Call it a unit, or territories and categories also, yeah, so we build a hybrid system. We have the KNU representatives, we have the indigenous people representatives that come in from the, as I explained to you before that, from the the goal, but the goal one is that we don't go to, you know, represent each goal like that, but we, we kind of group it into More like a township and the village track kind of system as well, right? So that we also like integrating the KNU administrative system with our indigenous also, of course, some area overlapping, you know, across in the border of the districts, and not the districts or Township and and village tracks. So, so this is, you know, we the way we kind of face our constituencies, like that from the village track level, right? And then we have representative from. Community coming from the village track. And then we have also representatives from the civil society. So this is how we kind of build the governance, yeah, so the and then we also have the General Assembly, right? The general assembly is the highest decision making body, and the second highest is the the the the Executive Committee of the Peace Park. So, so this is, this is what we kind of trying to do. And then there this through these bodies or organs. We regularly meet every year. And then the executive committee meet every 10, three months, or something like that, or at least quarterly, if situations are not good. So we make, we, we discuss, we, you know, convene, and then we make decision, and then we have the executive committee to implement that decisions through forming the different working groups to implement on the culture, on the land, on the conservation, on women and youth, this kind of, yeah, through this system so and through this, you know, working group and systems, or, like, what they call it, working group, It's also, we also link it with the KNU, you know, relevant departments, if related to wildlife and related to forest, and then we have to work closely with the KNU forestry department. Remember, in the in the structure, the KNU forestry department representatives also sit. So we're trying to build a collaboration in the systems, in the governance system that way. So it's, it's kind of not to overshadow or take, you know, control of over the Kyaw, but more like what do you call it? Working together in that way, and then the usually our leader, one leader in mudra usually use the give the example, like the K and you probably the upper part of the head, and the peace part is the Joah, right? So it's part of the whole, like the head. So this is how we kind of operate like that. So it's create a check and balance. And it created, you know, like, sort of like the communication, better communication. And then there are so many things that also kind of benefit the KNU administration because of, you know, like opening up the space for communities to actively engage and actively, you know, like, also participate in the decision making, you know, so that that is what happening now in the Peace Park, yeah, like we have, as I said, the General Assembly laid down the, you Know, the you can they say that the strategies, yeah. I mean, we don't use the word strategy, of course, in in the assembly, because strategy is very vague. But we talk about, you know, what should be that, you know, what are the priorities? So we set up so definitely we have, like in in terms of our work program, we group it into, like a cultural, cultural group. And that cultural group, working group is headed by the youth group to, you know, like, do documentation, do the like, promoting cultural kind of knowledge, like culture school we have trying to learn How to Play traditional music and make traditional music, instruments like that, and the woman grew, weaving, making threads, this kind of thing, because of war and displacement, people you know less less and less people you know. Are interested or learn how to, you know, do the weaving, yeah, sure, and especially the traditional patterns, you know, like that. So we trying to also revitalize that aligned. And then we also have program in terms of environment management and conservation. We we have there, we work with the forest department to develop their kind of rural regulations, and trying to also set up their community ranges to monitor, you know, the the forest, especially along the Salomon River, because of the border, easy for outsider to come in and do illegal activities like cutting the trees, doing the poaching and so on, so on, like that.
So communities Rangers, they are all to do regular petroleum and reporting back to the Peace Park committee and to the Canadian forest department. And then from time to time, we organize a meeting to share, you know, the result of our forest management, our, you know, monitoring of the forest land. And and then definitely, we trying to encourage people to develop better, you know, forest management systems and they're also trying to make sure that we also manage and control unregulated forest fire, so that that is also part of our Peace Park kind of action plan. So we, we didn't claim that we have done a lot on that, but when we see the satellite image, you know, this year, especially from, you know, when we had our meeting with the Thai counterparts this side, they showed that our Peace Park looks green, very little fused hot spot, but on this side and other areas, a lot of red dots and spots. So that show that you know, our effort, our initiatives, do kind of have an impact. And even though we have, you know, our agriculture system, where we need to burn also like that, despite we having that, we don't have a problem with that. So you can see the benefit that, you know, have a larger, you know, at a larger scale, when we discuss about the Transboundary Haze issues, and it's not just for us. It's also benefit talent, right? So it seemed that we need to build also better collaboration in the future. So yeah, so we have, like a group ladder than women groups, of course, women that we wanted to promote, women participation movement leadership in conservation women leadership in kind of making decision about how to develop, you know, our communities like that. And we also have a working group on the, really, the self determination kind of category, trying to look into, how do we help strengthen our governance, our PNU governance? How to, you know, like, promote, you know, the good governance and public administration, for example, easy. Like, things like, you know, having, then our village name in Karen, right, right? And then also in terms of doing the kind of, I don't know, like, you know, identification card, you know, that kind of thing that we also plan and work with the KNU to kind of better have a proper registration like that. Yeah, so many, so many things I'm trying to explain to you that you know what the peace part is doing now. So but under the three pillars, as I mentioned before, under this peace and self determination, under the environmental conservation and under the cultural survival pillars that these kind of activities are linking to that.
Host 1:09:59
Right. So this is really remarkable, an example of democracy in action, and really a profound way of bringing together all these actors to engage different communities, different voices, understand what those needs are, and have a place to talk about them, to decide upon them, a body to then make a decision and act that decision, and then work with all regional partners of all different directions. I think the one major player in all of this that's been left out in the conversation so far is, of course, the Burmese military, and and, and, as we know, the Burmese military is they. They are. They're certainly not democratic, and they are certainly not humane. And so the question comes to me as you're describing this, as you're describing these partnerships that you're developing with really an impressive, diverse array of actors, of people that you're bringing to the table, bringing to the fold, making it see how it's also a win win for them. So they're seeing they have a stake in the success of this going forward, that it continues to be a win win for all these parties. And yet, when it comes to the military, it's hard to see how they're going to even think of having the stake at the table, let alone how they would honor whatever agreements were come, let alone if they weren't at the table, how this whole body could proceed in their own way with honoring different agreements and relationships and actions going forward, how the military is going to respect any of that they're going to come in and take what they want, build roads where they want, steal natural resources as they want use human labor, airstrikes, the whole terrible thing that we all know, and so through the development many years and decades of the sawween peace park, I'm wondering where, especially since you have spoken so eloquently of bringing all of these and say unlikely partners, to the table and to the fold and having showing them how it's in their interest to Be a part of what you're building. You have this one very bad actor that is sitting outside of all of that.
Paul Sein Twa 1:12:07
Very good question that you're correct. We need to address the elephant in the ruble, right? Yes, yeah. That's why we need the peace pack in the first place, right? As I claimed before that in order to counter, you know, the threats challenges, not just to kind of push back, but also offer alternatives or way forwards. That's the ideas of the Peace Park. So we say we don't want this, we don't want that, but we also say this is what we want. This is what we are doing. So first is like in order to kind of push back the bad actor, then definitely, we need to build our resilience, you know, our resilience our resistance, so that we don't really fall into that traps fall into their fake solutions, right? So this is part of the seven piece Park movement, like building grassroot movement in joining this and then the resist, you know, the development that are not from our communities, not not determined by our communities. We work with the KNU to make sure that, you know, they stick to the policies, they stick to the principles. And as much as possible we resist them here means also defending right, defending and defending. We don't have arms. We don't have that. But kn news, that's a KN news role. So how do we also improve the defending of our territories, you know. So there are many other ways that we look at the security from our perspective, you know. Like, as I said, we don't destroy we don't build a road that will enable our enemies to use against terrorism. We don't kill the rivers that would have a bad impact on the community. Of course, some area you know, like through the gold mining, things like that happen, but you know, we have to, you know, limit the impact, because the KNU need the income in order to kind of buy weapons and defend to protect people. So, if not necessary, then we cannot set no so even even those things that you know happen in small part of that is that we do have plan. And when the political situation improves, we need to rehabilitate that. So the defending resistance, and you know, we have to also look broader than just just opposing. Defending is also also part of the defending our environment distraction also. So this is part of what we are doing, internally, in the communities, and then at a better, you know, national scale, you we had to have to build, you know, alliances. Have to build networks, you know, and then so that we also strengthen our kind of defending and our resistance and resilience, and that not just other, you know, national or, you know, other indigenous or ethnic groups, but, you know, our international kind of partners and like mandate groups, that's where we create. This part is that to bring into different partners, not just on one issues in the past, when before we had the peace part, we we definitely organize ourselves against the building of the Haji dam, right? But that's only the river and the dam. No, we, we don't have much on other issues, like indigenous peoples, right? We don't have about the land and so on. So when we build a peace park, we have opened up more aspects of our movement and trying to bring in more partners that focus on other, you know, sectors or area. They're on agriculture, on wildlife, biodiversity conservation, you know, we kind of open up spaces where, you know, other international partners can also join and help us. So I want to focus on the international global alliance that why we do that? Because it said that one is that the bad guy, they also do not work alone. They have the support. Yeah, exactly right, yeah. With all the their support, you know, the external support, they can also do things, right? So that's why our job is to tell, you know, who is the right person to support and or to work with, you know? So, so this is our campaign that we've been doing right, and in order to do that, we have to use the existing international un mechanisms, you know, in terms of Indigenous People's right, in terms of the the free and prior informed consent tools, the you know, consultation kind of, yeah, things like that, their protocols and standards and like that. We have to use all of them right to make sure that you know people who are engaging with their bad actors, you know, follow that, right? And that, in a way, it's basically had also have an impact, have a impact on the bad guy, also, because they cannot grab our land easily.
Host 1:18:42
I see, yeah.
Paul Sein Twa 1:18:45
Even they wanted to get a conservation grant because of, you know, they wanted to take away our land and show that, oh, this is how we protect our forest. They cannot claim, you know, I mean, they want to claim some Campo credits or something like that, right? They cannot do it because of, you know, we are trying to show that these lands belong to our indigenous and rural communities, and we have the initiative to do that, right. So if, if you have to, you know, support and work, you know, to kind of, you know, protect, you know, this forest cover, or this forest rainforest, or something like that, then they have to work with us, right? This is just an example of what I'm trying to say. So that meaning, you know, the international community groups know who are the real actors, who are the the, you know, group that are doing, you know, good work. So you know that in a way, you know, like trying to what they call reduce, you know, their supporters. Mm hmm, like that. And we also do also campaign. It's also meaning we, we, we also trying to not to let them or just use, you know, our space at the international level as well. So we try to take our own space to make sure that the bad guys you know, don't continue to do the bad things in our territories. So yeah, so we kind of combine different strategies like that, and then we've seen that that also changed the the how the international community see and understand the situation in Burma, more, we can say better now that the tendency that you know, we receive more recognition of our work, not just the indigenous people, but the KNU also. We also receive the recognition as a legitimate governance actor, right? So you are right that definitely we cannot control the space because of the space. Mean the airspace, the threats coming from, from the airspace, is enormous and very threatening. And yeah, we have to really adapt to that. But it is clear that they cannot win by, you know, doing that, because the importance is now our areas, our on the ground, you know, situation the KNU can control more now. So, for instance, how do we kind of increase, how do we kind of reach out to the area that being was under the military control, right, in terms of reaching out to communities and other conservation work?
Host 1:22:19
Yeah, one of the things that caught my ear in your answer was speaking about the close coordination and relationship with the KNU, and as the KNU being the governing body in this region and this community that what you're doing is with in concert with them, you've referenced, you've made a metaphor of the human body in terms of the head and the rest of the body being as how the KNU and KESAN or Salween Park relate to each other in terms of how it's active and engaged within the community. And then the bad actor, the elephant in the room, the interloper of the military, being the one that always the bully really on the block being have to various mechanisms and strategies to try to keep it at bay and that. Then you've also referenced how your work in the park is actually it serves as this to protect the park. It then serves as this wider deterrent for bad behavior by the bad actor, and being able to call up different mechanisms and protocols and formalities to resist further military incursion, to protect the park, which is actually protecting the people and the wider landscape as well, which is just brilliant. But in listening to this explanation, it also brings up if we go from this micro to the greater macro and to the present moment. It does bring up these questions that are very prevalent right now, of federalism and federalism on one one hand, and factionalism on the other. And what that what? What the relationship is of the potentiality of of of balkanization and of fractionalization taking place within Myanmar and on the one hand, and then of the federal democracy that's trying to be built. And so it's very interesting to look at this question in contrast with the work that you're doing in a regional way, with KNU, with the bully and elephant of the military being intentionally excluded in that relationship, and very rightly so. But it does bring up questions of a wider federal democracy structure that would happen within Myanmar, and what those wider relationships would look like. And in one way, we might have an example to point back to of the transition period, where the transition period, though not perfect, did have a a better actor, a slightly more sympathetic actor in the nature of NLD, which was never in full control, we should say, but was, was nominally in some position of decision making, however tenuous and precarious that was. And so what this makes me. Think about is looking at, okay, so you have a relationship with a regional actor, Pika, and you, you have a you're forming somewhat of a resistance and protection against the bad, the very bad actor of the military. But then what I'm wondering is, when the NLD came to power, what changes, if any, did that bring? Were there in expanding this democratic structure, this local democratic structure that you've been endeavoring and striving to build, and then having a bigger, semi democratic structure in napida and Yangon, were there attempts to connect with them, to coordinate beyond the KNU and coordinate with their central authority into how this how decision making bodies could start to work, and the relationships between local, regional and national actors. That's one part of the question. The other part of the question would be going forward and looking at not just what happened during that transition period, but in the possibility of a federal democracy happening in post military Myanmar, where do you and you've also you've spoken about self determination and the power and the importance of indigenous people to have self determination in their communities. Going forward, where do you see the kind of wider collaboration or coordination that the park could have beyond the KNU with an overall structure of the country or not?
Paul Sein Twa 1:26:26
Yeah, definitely, like, yeah, during the we can say the opening time, call it the peace process time, or Something like that. That time. Definitely, we, you know, have more like, you know, a better space, or, I don't know how to use a better space, or more like an open space, for us to engage, you know, at different levels, including the, you know, the National, the parliamentary kind of level. Engaging Republican parties, all these things, and including also the peace process through the KNU, you know, the ethnic actors. So when we started that peace process, the peace park, you know, initiatives and activities along the way. We're trying to demonstrate, you know, how federal look, the real federal look like, right? It is not like something that we we talk about as a dream. It is, it is coming from the communities, right? We show how we managed, you know, our land. We trying to show, we trying to demystify the narrative that indigenous people the destroyers of the forest. You know, we show very clear example. We trying to make sure that the decision and politician understand that. And then we try to also use, you know, otherwise, to kind of inform the peace process. That when we talk about peace, is meaning the real peace. The real peace is like what we do in the Peace Park. You know, where do you recognize the things that we want in the peace process, or at the nippy dock, like, for example, that land, the land policy, the land rights, you know, like that they, you know, this going opposite of what you want, right? Yeah, so it's a pity, actually, like, during the NLD times, they don't really, they didn't understand, you know, you can say they definitely have the very centralized mindset. They have a very kind of burmanization kind of mindset, that they have everything, and then they reconsider what to give to us. So this is not the federal kind of, kind of, you know what you call it mindset. Federal means, when you, when you build a federal system, it means that you have to recognize people willingness to come together. Yeah, right, right, yeah. So it is not understood by the military or by the NLD, but yeah, then came a military coup. So the situation changed, so our effort is to, like, continue with our. Initiatives. But our initiatives now have to also adapt to the political changes, right, and then we have to also prove that what we believe and what we trying to do is really bearing fruits. So I would like to kind of give the, what do you call it? My perspectives on their countering the narratives of Burma will be like, you know, will become balkanization, factionalism, you know, all the things like that, quite negative. But for from my perspective, when we talk about environment, we don't have a boundary. You know, we don't have a boundary. We the rivers flow through different countries, different communities. Yeah, you know, when we talk about the haze issue that we are facing now, it does not only come from one area. It can come from other area, and then they, you know, create a problems, especially now in Northern Thailand and the environment, kind of conservation to be, you know, effective, it is also to kind of build, you know, like a collaboration and cooperation with, you know, other actors, or other, you know, like territories right for the seven piece Park. We don't think that it will be enough just to conserve, you know this 5000 something square kilometers, but we need to also work with other neighboring communities or territories that are connected to our territory, and even on Thai side right. And as I said earlier, by doing conservation on our side also contribute, you know, to the benefit of the other community in Thailand, right? So we need to kind of recognize, you know also we talk about environmental management or conservation, we have to add we cannot just talk about environmental conservation without recognizing the human rights of the people who are living in that territory. Yeah, right. So this is where we said that we have to first recognize the rights of the indigenous people and local communities, and that's where we talk about human rights based approach to conservation. This is exactly what we the peace party is doing. And then, by recognizing our rights, and then by holding hand with other communities, we can kind of through, you know, building a contract or MOU through, you know, the joint effort and kind of activities we can achieve more, right? So this is applied the same with the, you know, the Federal the federal system that we are talking about in the past, we talk about building the federal something that you know we talk about, the principle, the policies, and we know very well that military and the dominant Burman society wouldn't kind of buy into that concept, right? So now, when the after the military coup, we talk about federal building federal from below. So the focus is on building the in federal unit first, right? And then other ethnic groups also, like karini, also wanted to do build a federal unit, also first. Then, if we come together. If we join together, we can increase the number. And we already seen, you know, ethnic people wanted to, you know, join together, because the understanding is that, if there is only one piece in. Land, but there is no peace occurring that will work also, because we are connected like environment, if we take care of our forests in our community, but other communities have no tree left, and then they will come to our shrine. So this is a basic principle that environmental conservation and the Federal is very relevant, right? So we have to kind of understand that and link our movement to that. So when we talk about building the federal unit in our areas, in our area, mikarem.
And of course, the KNU is the leading body. The we also want the KNU and the people who are who have the responsibility to drop the Constitution. And of course, it should be open process that also, you know, this kind of initiative like pispa should be also recognized in the Constitution, you know, but not specific for the peace part, but we should have a provision that recognize the right of the indigenous people, sure, right? And then this, this way we, you know, like, even in the transition and in the, really, the the democratic, you know, the Federal democratic system, this kind of activities can scale up and grow, right, even we have a feather system for our environment. Kind of work, we have to also work with other ethnic groups. I said, you know, the Carini is also doing something, you know, to also manage and conserve the environment, and we also have to, you know, build our relationship and have a joint also effort. So we have to do like that in order to have to achieve the kind of bigger impacts.
Host 1:37:18
You reference how during the transition period, the relations that you had with the NLD were not as positive as you would have hoped for, that there was still a feeling of the need for central authority, which resulted in less receptive qualities of listening to regional actors and wanting to work with them from ground up solutions As you're really prioritizing working on and you also reference the burmanization, and this is you're not the first person to note that, although far less violent and tyrannical, the NLD was largely made of bamar politicians and leaders and was not so sensitive to non bamar issues as it could have been during that time, which is something that's been changing dramatically over the past few years since the coup. That's been one, at least positive silver lining of how bad these last few years have been is greater inner ethnic harmony. But you do reference the burmanization policies they had, in addition to the kind of central, centrally focused governance that they were looking for. And again, your peace park is not, is not simply a park for preservation and supporting of indigenous communities. It is that, but it's also, as you've rather ingeniously found a way to navigate. It's doing that at a local level, and then at a higher level, those same actions are resounding in profoundly different ways when it comes to human rights and politics of governing systems and everything else, which is really just amazing to hear as you tell it, how these all come together. But I'm wondering going forward, how you see potential burmanization issues in new structures that are being created. This is, of course, hypothetical, but what's not hypothetical, what we can talk about is the nug. And again, it's always a bit careful in talking about the nug, because there, I think one of the challenges that's come in Criticisms The nug has received is not acknowledging the tremendously difficult situations they're in there a wartime a wartime governing body that is not themselves in safety and that has very limited power under their control and what they're able to accomplish. So with all those normal disclaimers that this should not be looked at as a normal governing body in normal situations, by any means, with those disclaimers in place, looking at how the energy may have differed from the NLD and in what it is and what it's trying to do, and what optimism or what concerns that gives you going forward. Word in the type of governing structure that can exist in Myanmar after this military is hopefully resolved.
Paul Sein Twa 1:40:08
Yeah, yeah. I think I would like to explain a little bit more during the NLD time. I think that is pity, because of the you know, the military coup had happened. Otherwise, if we continue to have kind of more time and space, I think that would have also make headway into, you know, the policies, because when the Peace Park had received the sort of international award and recognition from the UNDP, you know, the greater price. This is quite significant, you know, like in Burma, this is, this is the first one, and it is in, you know, country affected areas right then, I think that that recognition also, you know, like I had a big impact, you know, in the I believe it's had a big impact in the policy arena that, you know, The communities, current people can do this kind of thing. And what about the government? Where's your policy, you know what? And remember, as I said, the government are signatory to, also international you know, you know convention, and you know they sign up that, you know they had, you know, commitment to implement those things, right? So then it is a reflection. It is, you know, questions throwing at them that they need to answer, right? And then they they had some increasing interest from the NLD MPs. Wanted to come and visit, and wanted to learn, also other ethnic friends. We also, you know, would like to come and I think one group came from Nagel Lang, right? That's great for the coup. Yeah, right. It's kind of early time of covid. Yeah, we the bad thing is, we have covid in the coup. Otherwise we have more, we call it interactions with our ethnic brothers sisters, and that we also provide a more learning space for the political parties to learn about, you know, the work we are doing, right? And I said, you know, like, I don't say the black and white, you know about what MTCs, but there is, you know, this increased kind of understanding, or start to understand, or started to look into the The initiative, and we had a chance to also exhibit our work in Yangon. I didn't remember, is that place that, I mean, we trying to exhibit photos, stories like that, right? And then, you know, it started to capture, you know, some the urban people's interest in in our region, in the jungle, yeah. So, as I said, after military coup, definitely, there's a new political landscape, more and new emerging actors, you know, like nug and u c, c, and then there. You know that now the ethnic groups are developing their own governance system, like the krini. So, yeah. The thing is that in order to kind of influence change, definitely we need to have proof. You know? We need to show. We need to demonstrate what it is like. You know, what it what is working. What is not working right? If we can have more of this, I think that it is easy to influence right, and then I don't put the emphasis on what the nug should do. I put more emphasis on what our ethnic people should do and what the Kni should do together. We can shape the future, because the energy cannot do things alone without support, collaboration with the energy people, because we have the territories. We have the base, we have the communities, right? So this is what we said that in the interview time we have to, you know, like, recognize, we have to address, you know, the, you know, the issues at hand, and trying to also think about developing the Constitution, the policies, the law that will govern will address the injustices, not the old system that are oppressive, exploit exploitative, to the new one that are more like fair and more to do more justice, to provide just it to people, right? So, so this is, you know, like the time for us to kind of show that right, and, and, and by, by having this kind of initiatives across the countries, definitely, we can influence the at least in terms of the land policies at the federal unit level, at the federal level, right? Because we don't know which one will come first, but at least, as I said, building from the ground up, we should have on on the ground for us.
Host 1:46:21
Right? Yeah, we spoke with your colleague and friend Ashley south the other day during his conversation, he expressed, during one extended comment, his concern on climate change and how climate change the inevit the inevitability of climate change in Myanmar and the impact that it would have on communities, politics, everything going forward, that this has to be a fundamental way that we look at the ongoing crisis in Myanmar and how it gets developed and what goes next and so be I'd be remiss if in speaking to a local environmentalist, I didn't ask you your thoughts On where climate change fits into this whole argument and what and in the work that you're doing with local, environments and communities, what your concerns for climate change are and what you're how, how you're responding to it?
Paul Sein Twa 1:47:17
Yes, definitely for us, is we. I mean, see the linkages, you know, clear linkages between the climate change and the conflict, right? I see, yeah, so it's inseparable, right? So if we can address that, then I think that, you know, like, the benefit is, you know, a lot not there to achieve if we don't address that together. You know, because of conflict, create more what they call it, the environmental problems, in a way, because of displacement, because of, you know, like uncontrollable natural resource exploitation, you know, through the extractive activities, and Then you know, even you know, the military, for example, like the rare earth mining in northern Burma is a very concerning issue. Now, absolutely right. And gold mining and mining and logging is happening in the area where we have, we say that basically no man's kind of control area like that, because of, you know, so, so this is very concerning, right? So we would like to, like, you know, let the international communities understand that, you know. So they need to, you know, in order to kind of bring Burma out of, you know, this crisis, conflict crisis, and then the that link to the climate crisis, it through the climate change action, climate action, the support, The funding, you know, the technical aspect of that. So this is why we're trying to link and then coming from a climate change perspective, it is very relevant for the international community, beyond their commitment to do that right, if they don't do that earlier, and we have to imagine how, how well they call it huge, is the impact that people will suffer, right? Because it is a circle, right? It is a circle. Yeah, it's all connected, yeah. And. And, and I think it's quite concerning for countries in Europe, right in the West that you know, because of climate change impact, and people are migrating right, and then people are coming to their countries. That's as I kind of unlearned from, from different interventions. So then, definitely, the the good things to do is to engage with us, engage with ethnic governance body in order to address the climate change issue at the same time the conflict issues, yeah, and for us, definitely ending the conflict as possible is the best way.
Host 1:50:48
Absolutely, Paul, I want to thank you so much for your time here. We've talked for two hours, and it's just absolutely flown by. It's felt like a couple of minutes, and I think we could easily go two hours longer. You have so much to share, and it's so fascinating the implications of what you're doing, and also that, I think we're all a bit starved on this platform for a bit of good news.
Paul Sein Twa 1:51:09
Yeah, we would like to kind of emphasize on the, you know, the the opportunities that we have, even we are in this really difficult political crisis situation, that we have opportunities and then, and the opportunities is that we we still have the you know, the the you know, say that I don't know How to Use the right word asset, or we have the social capital. We have the political capitals to really shape the future of, you know, of country, you know. So for me, it is the asset a capital, the capital that we have established indigenous peoples. We have the knowledge. We have the, you know, the practice, the group practices. And we also have the, you know, our natural asset, you know, the good, healthy environment, you know. So we have to use this and then trying to, like, strengthen our movements, because there are many movements, but by strengthening our movements, movement that come from the people from environment, kind of kind of feel and link into the I think the other political movements, I think we can achieve bigger impact.
Host 1:53:32
Yeah, I, Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. As regular listeners are aware, we often remind our audience about our nonprofit mission that are Burma at the end of a show. Truth be told, fundraising is hard work, and I can personally attest the fact that it's really no fun to keep asking for contributions. Yet the situation on the ground now in Myanmar is so distressing that we continue to do so on behalf of the Burmese people. What is most helpful at this time are recurring donations, which help alleviate both the stress and time involved in fundraising. If you are able to pledge a certain amount per month, our team can plan around having at least a consistent minimum amount to work within each month. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer ethic, Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it. Most donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement, CDM, families of deceased victims, internally displaced person. IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries, education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies, covid relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country and. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission, Better Burma, any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website, betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit card. You can also give via PayPal, by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search Better Burma on each platform, and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts, or email us at info, at betterburma.org, that's Better Burma. One word spelled B, E T, T, E R, B, U, R, M, A.org. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artisan communities across Myanmar, available at alokacrafts.com any purchase will not only support these artisan communities, but also our nonprofits, wider mission that's Aloka Crafts spelled, A, L, O, K, A, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word, alokacrafts.com thank You so much for your kind consideration and support.