Transcript: Episode #287: Brewing Up Change
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:19
Well, welcome to the Insight Myanmar podcast. Before we get into today's show, I wanted to let you know that we have a lot more written and video content on our website. If you haven't visited it yet, we invite you to take a look at WWW dot insight myanmar.org. In addition to complete information about all of our past episodes, there's also a variety of blogs, books and videos to check out. And you can also sign up for our regular newsletter, but for now enjoy what follows and remember sharing is caring.
Brad 1:49
And welcome back. My guest today is a Hong Kong activist, and also a co founder of the mighty Alliance friends of Myanmar, which I'm sure it's going to lead us into many fascinating recent historical discussions. But before we get into that, Johnson, thank you very much for joining us today. And I'd like to give you the chance to introduce yourself for our audience.
Johnson Yeung 2:09
Thank you for hosting our podcast. I'm a regular listener to Insight Myanmar and is always so excited to be here in conversation with you.
Brad 2:19
And we're always excited to have people who who already know who we are and already already like what we do. But yeah, can you can you tell us a little bit about your your sort of history of activism in Hong Kong and your involvement with the milk tea alliance.
Johnson Yeung 2:36
Sure. Um, and you know, once again, just thank you for, you know, hosting so many FSOs insight memoir, like the inside the nuances, the compacity, of memoir, those FSOs I enjoy it a lot. And I think this is a very good surface to the people and also the the community around the world. Including myself, I learned a lot about Myanmar and also how to be a good allies. And this has actually connected to kind of the origins of my activism. I have been a pro democracy activists in Hong Kong for over 12 years. When I start my universities, there are a lot of campaign and student activism in the campus where students could join easily. And I remember the first time I went to a protest, it was about determine massacre, I was a commemoration of the massacre that took place in 1989. And I always have interest in politics as well. So I guess you know that that's the reason why I'm so inclined in joining different protests and also social movement as a whole. When I studied in university, I study politics because I really want to find out a better way of doing politics. And I remember, in my first year in my political philosophy class, my teachers told me that the acceptance of the political philosophy was about how could we as a human as a community could live together or coexist with each other. And I think that has really transcend that for our my activism is that I always keep the community and people in mind, and most importantly, trying to find a way for people to do consensus to communicate better and to collaborate better, so that we can actualize the life that we collectively wronged. So that one like that student activism is one way leading to the others has led me to a position where I was one of the many organizers of the Umbrella Movement in 2014 where medians of the holed up to the street, occupy the street for months to fight for universal cell features and a better political performing town and brand movement and was studied by a lot of activists, young activists around the world, especially those that are based in Southeast Asia. So that's how I first engage a regional solidarity work. And also get involved in regional networks. And touch base and learn exchange with young activists around the world. So fast forward thing, two more reasons. Five years, I have been heavily involved in solidarity work to Myanmar, especially after two hours and 31. There is a pocket there is a pocket in the beauty alliance called mute your lines, friends of Myanmar were activists from the Philippines from Taiwan from Indonesia, and many countries in the regions are showing up together to support Myanmar resistance movement, and also to be a good allies to be a good friends to be a good peers. We found memoir activists trying to exert political pressure and at the same time, support federal activists in personal to personal capacities. I'm also involved in different organizations such as the MSc International Hong Kong, and yeah, that's me. I like what climbing assigned from doing cancer research, I also have a habit and that will be work climbing. And I actually find the process of war climbing, quite resonate, or quite similar very to activism. Because during rock climbing, you always fall. And you always get disappointed about why couldn't I just get to the top and get to the peak. But every time we fell, we just keep going. Like what we do in atavism.
Brad 7:16
It reminds me of the the thing I don't know whether this is actually a Chinese saying or whether it's just something that circulates in the West as part of the the kung fu movie culture. But that that truism that with every step, the mountain becomes a little bit smaller, until with the final step, the mountain disappears entirely. And, and I do I do agree with you, I think there's a lot that we can do in our lives, in terms of physical challenges, where we have to learn to make small progress, we have to learn to find success where we can find it. And we have to just keep putting one foot in front of the other so that we can slowly make the mountain smaller. And then, of course, once you're at the top of the mountain, you can look back and you can feel good at how far you've come. But along the way, it's important to have some way to remind yourself that the journey has an end. There's a reason.
Johnson Yeung 8:18
Absolutely. And also acknowledging that different people have their own pace and metaphor in overcoming or navigating the very difficult terrains. And that would require a lot of international reasonings and understanding about oneself in order to find the right pace for a person to overcome the challenge they have. And what's fun about what climbing or activism is, after you went on to the peak of a mountain, there's always another mountain that you can take the challenge on. So again, like activism, there's no ending of activism because injustice is everywhere. And after you finish one vowel so there's always something you can keep on fighting for.
Brad 9:20
I it just reminds I assume that it's the same for you as it is in in many of the other sports I do different sports and the same problem comes up every you fixate on a goal you fixate on trying to do something and you tell yourself I just want to achieve this. I just want to do this. And, you know with with with lifting weights, for example, we tell ourselves I just want to be able to lift this weight and then I'll be happy then I'll be satisfied. And you lifted and before you've even put the weight back down. You're already thinking but I could go more. What's my next goal? What's my next objective? You're never satisfied. You're never stagnant you always want to do more, you always want to reach that higher peak. As Yeah. And
Johnson Yeung 10:08
that may sounds like okay, you know, we are cheating activism or struggle as, as a game as a challenge, which, to some aspects he does pose a challenge to people that makes people wants to overcome it. But at the same time, it is also self, a poor sense of self actualization. I think especially in the past few years, Hong Kong is a really is really in a bad shape, that the political repression is very high, it's very intense, a lot of civic space has been shut down. So being an activist does not burn up a lot of social capital, also our owner, you know, rather, it was like more threats or dangers, so, but at the same time, like, in the past few years, I feel like okay, the reason why I'm seeing in Hong Kong, despite a lot of my friends, or peers has already relocated or somewhere when in exile, I also feel that aside from the tangible objective goal of trying to make the lives of my people better, there is also an aspect or motivations in my activism that I feel the pauses of engaging, activism is empowering. It is self actualization. And most importantly, I'm getting reward, but not tangible reward like money or honor. But I am feeling that I'm fulfilling my mission. So that that happiness, or that fulfilling emotion that I got from activism is some is one of the many factors that I keep on doing what I do now.
Brad 12:00
And, again, I don't want to get too much into just these these wise expressions that get thrown around. But it's, it reminds me of that the image of of the old man who plants a tree, whose shade he is never going to live in, or enjoy. And I think that that was always an image that that stuck with me because it, it is about not doing things just for yourself and not doing things because you'll receive accolades for them, but doing things because you know that what you do today is going to make someone's life better tomorrow or the day after, or the next day or the next decade or the next century. And I think a lot of social movements, were successfully led by people like that. And when we look at different types of social movements, social emancipation movements, at the time, that these people are fighting against the systems of oppression, they are often viewed very negatively they are caricature it very negatively, they are laughed out, they are punished, they are mistreated by the system. And many of them die in obscurity. And they're not really remembered, even though their work and their sacrifices were what made it possible for subsequent generations to continue that fight on much more favorable terms, in a in a light that is viewed much more positively by society as a righteous cause. As opposed to, you know, as it was originally viewed as this fringe extremist idea, whether it's, you know, the emancipation of, of different races, whether it's the emancipation of women, whether it's the emancipation of individuals from the the oversights of a tyrannical government. There is a lot to be said for people who are not looking for personal fame and personal glory, and do not necessarily expect to see the fruits of the tree that they are planting. But they do it anyway. Because the next generations need someone to have laid that foundation for them to continue to build upon.
Johnson Yeung 14:02
Having that someone or next generations in mind when we were doing activism, it's utterly important. And I find some someone, some people in the Milk Tea Alliance as well.
Brad 14:16
Absolutely, absolutely. So let's let's start talking about the milk Milk Tea Alliance, then I will circle back to a lot of the Hong Kong politics because there's some fascinating stuff there. But the the military alliance, then what is the essence of the military alliance? Why is it called the military alliance?
Johnson Yeung 14:36
The origins of the Milk Tea Alliance? There were multiple versions of it. But then most pomada one was a online internet meme war in 2020. Back then, a lot of Thai people Taiwanese and Hong Kong people were using tweets As a way to engage everyday life but also engage in activism. And there was this particular incidence that sometimes star pop star were being canceled by Chinese medicines. For a comment over Taiwan and China. The Popstar was accused of supporting Taiwan independencies. And that is a huge taboo and also read by in China and also Chinese netizens love to use that to cancer, people that they don't see eye to eye. So that has evolved into a meme battle between the Thai netizens and the Chinese trolls. And gradually, Thai netizens has galvanized it and invited Taiwanese and Hong Kong that is to join a meme battle as well. And at certain point in the midst of this old my term or someone has coined the term mutual alliance to signify a even formal a spontaneous Alliance or collective identity in Southeast Asia, and in East Asia. Because UT is as a drink or as a cultural symbol is pretty widespread across the region, right, each country's or territory have their own version permanent versions of mu T. So you have, you know, the bubble tea in Taiwan, which is utterly popular around the world. And you have the Hong Kong mu T, which is very common in raising goal Cha chanting, which was like T restaurants we have and then you go to Myanmar, you also have a different different kinds of Team restaurants and their own versions of beauty. So that has signifying the alliance of the peoples in the region. So the new tea then has become a symbol that everyone knows, everyone can resonate, because almost everyone drink beauty at least once. And but then what is the meaning what is the accents of the Alliance. So again, because the alliance is not a is a homogeneous or a hierarchical organization, right? There is no one single international secretaries or leader can define his content. Rather, it is constructed by the meaning and the content and the principles, the values of material and are constructed by people that are getting in forth in the media, and so on top Media Alliance has their identities. And to be honest, I actually didn't pass it or pay in the initial meme war between the Thai the Hong Kong, Taiwanese and Chinese. I came after I took the the label as part of my identity much later, after the memoir. And the reason I took it in is because there are multiple activists, young activists who I know in person, were using this hashtag, to share news about their own versions of democracy movement, human rights movement, LGBT movement. And I find it a very easier way to, to use just use the hashtag, and to also share, you know what, what's happening in Hong Kong as well. So going back to the principles and the values of the mutiara law is there's no single person who can define it. But after years of constructions from the people who utilize the label, we can observe military alliance is a loose alliance that are joined and pass it a paid it by activists who support democracy, who support the values of equities, and also most importantly, anti of terrorism around the region. Because, aside from UT being a very common drinks in the region of terrorism's, it's also a very common phenomenon in our region. So people use this hashtag and also identity to express a collective virtues and also exquisite aspirations, for freedom for anti or for terrorism's, anti discriminations and, most importantly, solidarity To each other's and this is I think the the also one of the top values in the material and standards. There's not a single organizations that are coordinating actions or you know, say okay different nation, no chapters need to do what rather it is based on foreign foreign terrorism's it was based on person to person solidarity, it is based on a kind of solidarity doesn't that doesn't attach? Money doesn't attach conditions, you know, rather, it's really blue from friendships and the, the urge of supporting each other because we see ourselves in the same cause.
Brad 20:53
I just don't really, before we get into the details of the milk tea Alliance, what, what is the milk tea, like, actually in in Hong Kong, because the Burmese version of milk tea is typically like a black tea that's been steeped for quite a long time with both condensed milk and evaporated milk. But what's the Hong Kong version of this?
Johnson Yeung 21:16
It's pretty similar. So tea leaves wipes, the more confidential tea beeps that I use in new tea in Hong Kong is the Ceylon tea, Saranda tea, multiple, multiple types of Ceylon tea, that are coming from different regions of Sri Lanka. So you have maybe red and black tea mixing each other. So that form as the base of the tea, and then, according to the preference of this customer, either you use condensed milk, or just milk, and then add them into the milk tea. Now, of course, we are in a very globalized world where you know, popular culture like bubble tea, or different kinds of ingredients might be added to beauty as well. So that make it more diverse. But the most conventional one was multiple See, voluntee plus.
Brad 22:15
It's interesting. Because of course, the bubble tea is quite notably different than the Thai version of milk tea is also quite different. So that's interesting that there's that there's that similarity there. And you also talk about the the decentralization of the military alliance, which I think is a really important factor. And there's a great versatility in not having a strict hierarchy not having sort of a head that can be removed by, you know, state authorities. But I'm wondering, though, does this decentralized nature and you spoke very heavily about the meme war? Does this make the milk tea Alliance much more of an internet phenomenon? Or does it actually have sort of physical real world manifestations?
Johnson Yeung 23:01
It's a hybrid model. It was started on the internet, where people would use relies on digital campaigning, right. So sharing beams, going out, go to different Twitter accounts, such as the ASEAN Twitter account and trying to troll dams or pressure dams or shame them as a tactics in exerting political influence and pressure. But then there are gradually some uptake in the physical world as well, where activists were in the Philippines in Indonesia, in Hong Kong as well, we're raised banners of the beauty and trying to target, you know, embassies as a way to express our political demand as well. I remember when potez was still a thing in Hong Kong, in 2021. That's right now is highly regulated. And it's become very risky to also protests. In a physical site, in Hong Kong, back in 2021, I remember, there were several Burmese students who studied in Hong Kong. They were calling for a solidarity protests on Myanmar locations in Hong Kong, which was the peak, so I went there, hello, banner, and there were many there were like, few dozens of people and they were holding different types of beauty to signify the beauty Alliance. So that was actually quite empowering because most of the overseas students are in Hong Kong seen as a political right, but I think that collaborations between overseas students and the local e in amplifying events that is not related to Hong Kong, that is pretty new. And that is Hi, I'm pretty fresh to the civil society in Hong Kong.
Brad 25:06
And I want to look at this. Meanwhile, so you were, you were saying basically that this was a Thai person who was being accused of being pro Taiwanese independence, which, in and of itself, pretty, pretty fascinating, fascinating topic. But I think I think we can assume for the moment that our audience is aware that Taiwanese independence, probably a hot button topic in in mainland China, but you say then that this meme war happened. Now, I wonder what you can say about this, because we've heard a lot or I've heard a lot anyone who focuses on PRC, especially content that is critical of the PRC, critical of the CCP, we'll hear certain phrases like little pink, like UMO, effectively, people who are either pathologically loyal to the CCP and go online and independently mean for them or comment aggressively for them, or, you know, move the ratings of products and, and videos in a certain direction, or people who are ostensibly paid and hence they will model meaning I think, like, like half of a UN or something, to make comments on behalf of the interests of the CCP posing as regular netizens. So it seems that the Chinese state, both is alleged to have quite a lot of people who will go onto the internet and fight internet comment battles and mean battles on behalf of the CCP, but also a lot of people who will who will take up that mantle and do it voluntarily as a as a sort of patriotic duty. And I wonder what you can say about this? Do you find any truth to these allegations? Or do you think there is government behind this meme? Or was it only private citizens behind the main wall? What would you say?
Johnson Yeung 27:04
Oh, there are proper documentation to shows trying these troubles, were called and eating and the Chinese regimes in going after different topics. As a matter of fact, there was actually a leak around so four months of go, which shows you know how the Chinese government were hiring hackers and hiring trolls as well, in going after the win, target. So that was poorly documented. But you were right, that sometimes trolls were not hired by the regimes, they might not even affiliated by regimes. It could be private citizens, who just feel very patriotic, and feel very urge in supporting the narrative of the regimes. So there are of course, cases like that. And then there's also actor, malicious actor, that are actually not very patriot. But patriotism is could also be a business's right, like you said, like if someone is an oni personnels pose inflammatories come in about the enemies of the PRC regimes, they may get more approval from the Gulf governments and also from the Army as a whole, they might get more frames and reputation, so decade has settled the airport, that's much better. So, that is not a unique phenomenons in China. But it is, it is very common. And also it is highly visible, because after all, you know, Chinese regime is a huge country, you have so many data in there. And also one particular characteristics about the Chinese regimes in the informational formations warfare is you don't you know in in Reston or the Golpo tech firm, Coco, global social media, they don't get to enter the Chinese market, right, because they are all banned or they will withdraw from the Chinese market. And having Chinese trolls and the private citizens that are echoing the narratives of the officials in China will be very effective in international social media scenes, right? Because they like the critical comments. We're not be able to enter the Chinese internet, but critical gains, so called enemies of the Chinese regimes could flow very effective. If they have freely across the world, so that is another characteristics about the Chinese information welfare. So some might feel that, you know, meme campaign on the ball is just, you know, a plaything around youth, but actually it is part of information warfare or soft power, right, that are exerting by different national actors. So going after celebrities who are accused of supporting Taiwan independency, or going after celebrities that are critical to China has well impact and also a soft power implication. Because if some celebrities get canceled for being critical to China, then it may send as a warning sign to other celebrities who wants to be critical to China as well. So gradual will lead in our information space that will be less critiqued than less diverse opinions, mass nuances, our analysis about waist China doing and why is China doing around the world?
Brad 31:23
And I mean, certainly the the infrastructure that that the PRC has, is is terrifying. I've spent quite quite a bit of time researching how the infrastructure of WeChat and Wei Shin has been organized. And to an extent that the distinction between tick tock and dough yen and and you know, things like Sina Weibo, it's, it is shocking, how it I'm not gonna say how easy it is, it is beyond easy, how automated the censorship of comments that people are making to each other privately, has become in China. And it it seems that memes and memes seem to have such a power, not because they're memes. And they're exactly what a meme is supposed to be this small units of culture, adopted in a way to convey a very complex, very nuanced opinion about something in a very short, graphical format. Like that's what a meme can do is a very powerful tool. And, you know, I was spent quite a lot of time on Burmese memes, translating them and explaining them. But it seems that memes are also a mechanism that people used to bypass Chinese state censorship a lot. You know, I heard people saying, well, we send voice messages on on vacation, because voice messages cannot be censored in real time. You know, you can back in the day, you could handwrite a message, take a photograph of it and send it to someone. And the handwriting recognition software was not yet advanced enough to be able to identify that image in and remove it. Or the Chinese seem to have a very rich vocabulary of synonyms and wordplay. To be able to use seemingly innocuous characters and words, to talk about topics that would otherwise be forbidden. For example, I believe the Tiananmen Square Massacre, which happened on the fourth of June, is frequently referred to as happening on the 35th of May, which if there were 35th of May would be the fourth day of June and the I think rice bunnies was used for the me to movement because rice is me and bunnies too. So all these sorts of things, it seems that memes are such an essential tool in the Chinese net space, just to be able to express displeasure with the state just to be able to convey information that the state could so readily and willingly cut from existence without anyone ever knowing that that happened. I think essentially, it's just quite shocking.
Johnson Yeung 34:13
Yeah, it is. It's also fascinating, right? Like the way that people use memes to communicate charters and transmit political message groups, though, you know, one do one says is, you know, memes censorships against means that technology is also developing and getting more matures. So government is always going after different kinds of different form of expressions of dissent. And I think you are very right that sign from people were using it to communicate with free charters and and also to evade censorships meme also inherently has a power of curating a collective right because when you look at the meme that you're familiar with, you understand is meaning. So meme is all is meme is usually obscure, right? It's an obscure art. It is a obscure pictures that might not have a direct message. But people who receive memes those who have insider knowledge would laugh, when they were seeing a beam, they would smile, they would crack a joke with their friends. And that's because they were insider, right? Because they understand the inside joke, inside meanings of a meme. So the fact that someone understand the meme means they are sort of part of a community we're part of in groups who understand culture. So that's the power of meme, right? Not only are they transmitting a political messages, it is also enforcing a collective identity, where people will crack a joke and smile, because they understand it.
Brad 36:18
And so do you. These are the question with censorship, because, you know, I was born behind the Iron Curtain. And back in the socialist regimes in Europe, what you generally had was a system where, yes, there was government censorship. But the sensors themselves, the people doing the censorship, were generally not the smartest people in the world. They were obviously they were pathologically loyal to the state, which is how they got their jobs. But they weren't that smart. And so if you were able to hide your true meaning, through allegory, or through, you know, layered references, reading between the lines, things like this, you could typically get something through now. I mean, censorship in my country was not as extreme as there wasn't many others. But a lot of anti anti government anti socialist system, content was able to be produced, just because it was, you know, ostensibly, on the surface of it, he was criticizing something else. It was criticizing the West, it was criticizing capitalism, it was criticizing Nazism was criticizing whatever, when in reality, it was a critique of socialism. But the senses were not smart enough to do that. Do you feel that in the Chinese feel, memes are able to bypass the senses? Or do the senses have a knowledge of this? Is it is it is there this bifurcation of society where the senses are generally seen as less intelligent than not having a sense of humor, and therefore would not be familiar with these references, the movies, the TV shows the advertising the whatever you're turning into a meme? Or are they likely to come from the same group have gone to the same schools grew up on the same TV shows, and therefore be able to understand these memes?
Johnson Yeung 38:09
I think there are, I think you're right, that those who engage in censorship are usually people that are with with similar characteristics, or they're not very smart, they're very loyal. And first, they might not understand in depth and able to read between lines, and we are seeing that frequency in the online censorship space. That your sometimes a vocabulary and new vocabularies ran through that is criticizing sticker. And this is always a mouse and cat game, where the victim always catch up, right? Like there are many times where the central machines may lose their guard, or unable to understand, you know, what they need to sensors, but gradually, they always catch up, right? Because they have a lot of resources. And because when a meme or whenever vocabulary, gain popular, it will ultimately land into the years of the authority and the sensor as well. So the latest, I mean, but not the latest, but the more, you know, Pullman an example was the a4 revolutions in, in China, which took place during the COVID time. And 2010 a free where, you know, young people were holding a write paper saying to express their angers and grievances of the strict restrictions of the government during COVID time, right, so that weren't sir immediately. But the authority catch up gradually. And other things about the censorship regimes in China I know is not only we need to pay attention to the abilities of the government in understanding and capturing what they should sensors. But we also also pay attention to the capacity or censorships of the whole information space of China. What is interesting is of our wall, or you can say what is powerful about the Chinese censorship system is there's not, there's not a alternative internet space in China. And it's highly regulated, constructed. And the logics of internet is highly regulated by the Chinese authorities. There's this great firewall, where most of the foreign news, our site are banned and prohibited in the Chinese internet space. Most of the not most, but all of the internet service providers in inside China have begun the cybersecurity rules, or internet censorship rules that are written by the authorities, now even Apple, as Gopal comark rate have to comply with Chinese cyber security rules and upload their user data into a server that are that are owned, and within the Chinese jurisdiction. All right, so you will write that, you know, the century ships with genes in China is evolving. And at the same time, those who are engaged in censorships they are they might be coming from a similar background or may have, you know, similar personalities, right. But people that are loyal to the government are not necessarily the smartest people, right? They might not be able to pick up and able to identify what needs to be sensors in real time. And and in every single censorship regimes, including China, censorship is always a mouse, mouse and cat game, where the government is always playing catch up, in essence, are so creative, including those that are in China, they are so creative that they always find a different terms to express the same meanings, they might use a different vocabulary, they might change the tone a little bit. In order to escape from the censorship regimes, they might use meme or picture as well. So one of the more prominent example recently was the evil revolutions in China were young activists in Shanghai and also different regions in China were protesting, in a very were protests, expressing their grievances and anger to the government about how the government handle the COVID pentik measures that were young people were holding blank paper as a sign of protests in campus and on the street as well, in protest, saying that the Jacobian control of the government that has led to tragedies, including a fire, including suspecting a suspected, suspected flee, leading to the death of dozens of people in a fire. So the sensors then couldn't catch up. And do you know, a form memes or black paper memes. They were circulated online for a while before they were censors. And one particular characteristics in understanding the Chinese censorship regime is a sign from understanding how the censors catch up and understand what they need to censor. We also need to understand the capacities of the regimes and they're also the internet confinements of China, global firms or Western Internet giants. They are either banned or withdrawal from the Chinese internet. So there's no alternatives or not a very diverse marketplace of internet's in China, all of the internet service providers and in China's obligated to comply with the censorships regulations that are written by the government. Even Apple as a global Amok rate. They have to comply with cyber security rules of China and upload all their user daters in iCloud to a server that is based in China. So, that has made the narratives of the government very prominence in the online space, where netizens are often an able to see alternatives of the truth. And to give you an example, there was I think it was two years ago, if I recall correctly, it was around, it was on the day of June 4. Again, the, the day where the terminal massacres took place, there was this online personality who, who has huge following like millions of following who is a rare professional, earn online person personality in selling Porter. On June 4, that person held a cake make with? Well, let me let me rephrase like that person, he held a cake with the shape of a tank, like a combat tank, I'm attack. Right. And he was pretty sure he didn't know about you for pretty sure he didn't know about the meanings of tank, in the terminal massacre. And like, and yet, like he was holding the cake, on a live streaming shows where hundreds of 1000s of people were watching it. And then that live streaming was cut, like 15 seconds later. And that all my personality was he basically disappeared for a while. I mean, he wasn't like, like, enforce the disappearance, because I think the authority also knows that like that person really don't know about the history of June 4. And that example, explain like how the information has been easing in China is so restricted, that even a huge taboo, right, that's a huge red line, are not known by the ordinary citizens in China. And they by somehow want to call incidents that begin by shows a sign of deference, without them knowing that knowing.
Brad 47:19
Yeah, I mean, there was a period there was a there was a meme going in the West, actually, when people got angry at Chinese people in general, like whether they were scammers, or whether they were just CCP shills or whatever, people would start sending a whole bunch of of Tiananmen Square messages in the hopes that the Chinese recipients account would be flagged by the Chinese authorities and they would be sort of unable to, to comment, whether or not that actually works, I don't know. But that was, that was definitely something that was that was in vogue about 10 years back, or maybe 15 years back on, on on Western internet. And I've seen all sorts of interesting ones, not just that the picture of the tank, but even the, the character the Chinese character yearn for, like a drop of liquid. in simplified Chinese looks a little bit like a tank with the turret pointing to the side. And I've seen people, you know, posting, like, for tanks or for for the character, DN. And then just the character of a person just symbolizes that that iconic moment in the gentleman's Square Massacre. And like, if you, if you send that, as you say, like, I've shown that to Chinese people here in the West, and they just look at you like, they have no idea what you'll reference, they have no idea what this symbolizes, and you show it even to a Westerner, and they look at that and they're like, Oh, I know exactly what this is. So it's fascinating how isolated you're saying the average people off from, from the thing that the government is getting angry about in the first instance. It's deeply ironic.
Johnson Yeung 49:10
Yeah, it is. And that I think that's what makes me feel terrifying sometimes, right? Because the power of the government can't really write power, a collective memories. But at the same time, we do you know, there's this famous phrase about you know, you can lie to, you can lie to you can lie, but you cannot lie to all people, you cannot throw the people all the time, right? Once and I have a lot of experience of that, like, I've been hearing a lot of stories about you know, the Chinese youth, once they are in doubt about the government, then they are very envious sticks in seeking for the truth and seeking what kind of color different memory we're paying right now by the government. So I think there's like some inherent characteristics among human that they don't want to be through. And they want to seem true. They want to see what they were, what were upskill. So that's where their hopes lies in. And I think they call it time, like they call their and COVID measure has really shaped the face a lot of especially the Chinese youth to the government, that they might not see the government as the ultimate authority since then, and able to questions what the government's are telling them.
Brad 50:43
And then, of course, this, this would contrast from my understanding with the experiences of people in Hong Kong, because Hong Kong has historically enjoyed a much lower degree of censorship, a much lower degree of authoritarian repression. Hong Kong's had a semi I wouldn't say independence, but but as had a significant degree of autonomy. And it wasn't until relatively recently in the back end of the 2000 10s I think it was 2016 when the National Cybersecurity law was being passed, along with a another piece of legislation whose name I can't remember, which based reason is always in 2001, the National Security Law was imposed on Hong Kong interest and not the National Security Law, the National Cybersecurity law.
Johnson Yeung 51:38
No, so that was, there was a sight there was a privacy ordinance. But it wasn't. So lucky us, we still don't have a cyber security law yet. But it's, it's probably going to happen.
Brad 51:55
Because the thing is, when I was doing the research, what I found was there was a piece of legislation, two pieces of legislation actually, that were passed and taken together. What they allowed was to basically say that information that is stored on Hong Kong servers can be moved to mainland China, and then effectively treated as mainland Chinese information for the purposes of government investigation and oversight. So it didn't, if I remember correctly, it didn't entirely abolish the distinction between the mainland Chinese jurisdiction and Hong Kong jurisdiction. But it made it such that storing information on a Hong Kong server, in a technological sense, no longer functionally separated it from the service systems in mainland China, thereby giving the Chinese government a way to subpoena or gain access to to Hong Kong content. There was a while ago that I was I was looking into that I may have missed remembered. But from memory, that's that's something that the PRC.
Johnson Yeung 53:03
Basically, yes, that has something to do with maybe the Chinese cyber security law that might have implications for Hong Kong as well about cost jurisdiction, data transfer. But this thing's about I think that would be the way I always asked her, you know, it's very complicated that, you know, all the nursing assistants, it's very hard for them to also understand where their data is go.
Brad 53:30
I mean, not just ordinary citizens. I researched this for months. And I still don't have all of the answers as to how data are being handled by Chinese systems. Like, I found out that if you're messaging someone on WeChat, but you're using the translation function on WeChat, the translation function is actually processed by a third party company, and their servers are exclusively located within China. So any information that you use the translation function for, even if your communication is taking place outside of China on WeChat, the translated information has now become subject to PRC jurisdiction, because the third party service provider who does the translation service, you were unaware, is not part of the normal WeChat agreement. That's actually a separate privacy agreement like this is how many layers deep it went. So I still don't fully understand when data aro are not subjected to PRC oversight, regulation, data collection, and so on. And censorship. It's it's that difficult in that obscure, I don't think an average person could ever be expected to understand how these things work. And that's by design.
Johnson Yeung 54:43
Yeah. By design, data security is part of the you know, the larger concept of national security is in China, right? They have this national security contests which include a lot Tough components and data is one of them. Yeah, data security is part of the national security conceptualization, so the Chinese regime and in the past few years, right, like there was a huge crackdown in China on the internet sector, right. So you might hear the DD, which is like the equivalent of Hoover's in China, they were trying to get an Lister in the US stock exchanges, which was hauled by the Chinese cybersecurity, cyber authority, cyber immunization essays, something like that. And, and then you have the data and groups, right, like they are trying to get an IPO and then also whole by the government as well. So data that are transferring outside China is seen as a very sensitive subject, which the government oversight is huge in China. And I guess bottom line is, you know, if you were using WeChat, no matter where you are, you know, outside or inside China, you just have to assume that the WeChat internet service provider, have your data transfer back to China and Chinese government has an oversight effect, because there's not, there's not encrypt, there's no encryption, right? There is no end to end encryption and WeChat. And then there's also a very little privacy protections on to customers who are using a Chinese internet poll Porter. So my fic is trying to afford them as possible as you can, or just get a different devices to install this Chinese app that you need to use to do whatever you want to do.
Brad 56:48
Why is Why is advice there? But the reason I'm talking about the difference between Hong Kong and mainland China is because you said that you you started your activism with Tiananmen Square, I assume you mean gentleman's were like commemorations. And that's, that's what's fascinating. So it seems that in Hong Kong, not only are people aware of this, but they can actually occurred I don't know if it's still possible, but they could actually go out and hold events in, in the memory of, of the the massacre, while people you know, across the street or not, I shouldn't say across the street, but like in the mainland are not even aware that this occurred in many, in many cases, is that still that distinction still there? Or is that being eroded?
Johnson Yeung 57:39
That distinction has become vert or eroded? I will say like more Asians of June 4 is illegal in Hong Kong, but the government definitely sent a lot of mixed messages to discourage people from commemorating or even want people that come more, like talking about John for inflammatories, or, or, or or with messaging that like incite hatred, then then that government might might arrest you and put you in jail. I actually have a friend who is the who first name is challenged term, who was the I mean, the government definitely sound a lot of mixed messages to discourage people from commemorating June 4, or even trying to deter people. From commemorating June 4. I have a friend whose name's Chantel, she is a barista humor lawyers and also a key organizers of the different Hong Kong Alliance, which is the organizers of the June for Richards every year in a password in the past 30 years. And she was arrested in 2022. And still we may in jail for some for cetaceans and subversion, right for Subversion. I think it's the government why because she and the Hong Kong Alliance or organizations was accused of using doom for to subvert the government. So since then, tune for videos has been cancelled and then by the government, right or you can say no one dares to organize a vigils. Right because for people who wants to host a protest, right, they may get harassed it or they might even put under the risk of getting a rest. So vesical alarm large vigils that has been part of the landscapes of Hong Kong has cease several years ago. Go. But 30 for 30 years, it has been a gateway for many people, including myself, for young people to understand what social movements are. And to understand, you know, truth seeking, and the atrocity that the government has conducted. I remember the first time I engaged in materials in June for was actually in my home, in my grandparents homes, who is not very political. They were just ordinary people that escaped from China. Or you can say immigrated from China, they didn't, they didn't escape in a wash. So they emigrated from China. And they just kept all this magazines that report about the June 4, and put it somewhere in a shelf in their home. So I remember back then I was like, maybe eight years old, or nine years old, I just go for the cabinets and saw this magazines and start reading them. So that's my first first experience of engaging in politics, formal politics and social movement. And I think that has left me a an impression about the Chinese government and justice, and also the injustice, right? That, you know, for so many years after we almost 35 years later, this is actually this year, it's actually the 35th and the nurseries of the to involve those who disease who were killed. They didn't they didn't have justice, yet. And many who are trying to sift through are still remain in Joe, lockup in solitary confinement or even killed during the process?
Brad 1:02:02
Well, so it's pretty, it's pretty incredible that that things can be that extreme, even now, so far after the fact. It's still such a such a dangerous, dangerous thing to be doing just to try and find out the truth. And going back to the irony of what you said before, like some people who, who have accidentally managed to offend the sensibilities of the state, because they didn't even know what they were supposed to be avoiding. Because they they weren't aware of it in the first instance. It's, it is genuinely, is genuinely shocking. But I want to understand that now that we've discussed this context, you know, before the military alliance was formed, I think the 2019 Umbrella Revolution was kind of the, this this moment that everyone was just sort of watching everyone was, was unsure of what to expect, and, and from us on the outside. We looked at this as sort of the hope that, that someone's able to tell, you know, the central Chinese authority, like, hey, some people don't want to live the way that you think they should live. And everyone's very hopeful that that Hong Kong could stand up and could resist that. Can you? Can you explain to us what was happening in the 2019? How, why did it happen? And what was the outcome?
Johnson Yeung 1:03:32
Yeah, so the Umbrella Movement took place in 2014. And in 2019, another uprising took place, even larger one than the Umbrella Movement, which is the entity that movement. So the cause of the sign 19 protests was because the Hong Kong government was trying to amend a law that will allow the authority sending suspects of the Chinese regime to mainland China. So that caused a lot of panic across the society about prisoners rights, and also the Hong Kong people, especially those that are seen as the enemies of the regime will be sent to mainland China, which has even worse human rights record and treatment against Burma. Less war of law and fair trials. So that caused a lot of paranoia and a lot of anxieties in our society. And that gradually becomes a huge mobilizations and protests, urban uprising, confrontation, violent confrontations between the police and the protesters, as well. So that were, you know, us four months long, almost five months loans or political turmoil, where there will be exchange dangers of Molotov cocktail and rubber bullet and tear gas between the protesters and also the police. And it was also the you can say the largest social movement in Hong Kong history where there was a this estimate that more than 1/3 of the populations in Hong Kong has Passover pay that in various contentions of the of the of this five month Sloan's of term where police brutality was very common and, and and rouse Brett. So amidst this turmoil, there were a lot of reporting from international medias. And Hong Kong protests were seen in combating tear gas and rubber bullet quite effectively, you know that they have different equipments and they have different tactics in extinguishing tear gas. So that makes international headline. And that has also inspire and become a playbook for other movement as well in dealing with police brutality. So during those five months or turmoil, the power of the protesters has becomes less intense because the police brutality was also escalating. There were, you know, fatigue, and also the there were states, concentrations of protests on the street has gradually fade away because of the police brutality or also because of COVID as well. And after that the government has responded with retaliations and there that that's when the National Security Law was imposed it as well.
Brad 1:07:04
So that's a very sensitive question. But then would you would you say in the scheme of things that the revolution failed? Or did it still manage to to curtail what the the Hong Kong authority was trying to achieve? In a sense?
Johnson Yeung 1:07:24
It's, it's I think, Jury is just out there. All right, like looking back in this time space of 2020 for the civil society and civic spaces highly regulated on the 2021 National Security Law, and also the more reason one, article 23 national security law that is imposed on us this year. So I think the jury is out there. If we see things in the receiving is now right in the timespace of 2024. Civil society and civics Re is highly regulated and restricted. The 1021 National Security Law and also the more reason National Security Law in 2004 has a lot of implications on civil society, right. Like, for instance, if a civil society groups is seen as connecting with international civil society groups, right, they can proceed as a foreign agent, if they engage in efficacy, these activities outside Hong Kong, like lobbying foreign governments on imposing sanctions or or criticizing the Hong Kong for it, right that the civil society groups or the person could be jailed for over 10 years for colluding foreign forces. There are heightened versions of seditious law, which is something that I think they avoid, they also use a lot a Myanmar as well, on ketterling on methylating people's speech and expression. A simple speech that is seen as inciting hatred against the government could lend you seven years in jail. So I think that has that path that is the reactions of the government to the 2019 protests. So from this perspective, one could say okay, is it throws a 19 protests is a failure that the government has wean. But at the same time, you also need to acknowledge what is the cause of the government in putting out such as draconian measures against the society. We have in the past few years more Then close to 300,000 people emigrate out from the cities, right? They emigrate to the UK, they emigrated Australia to Taiwan, and many of them are actually middle class and professionals. There is a huge brain drains in town where you can't find good people into, you know, more professional jobs. You have foreign investments that are withdrawing from Hong Kong, media Comadre, as well, Wall Street Journal has just announced last week that they are relocating from Hong Kong, they are relocating their regional headquarters from Hong Kong to Singapore. So those are the cause of the government in changing the social contract, and put out a draconian measures against society, and this turmoil is still happening. But the government really have a hard time in locating foreign investment. There are huge deficits in government budgets. And a lot of young people don't feel hopeful about the future. So phone call, now, all this grievances and you know, change in our society, what that contribute to, you know, a political reform or a change in our politics, the jury is out there, right. But there are there are a lot of moving parts, I will say in our society, where there are still opportunities in galvanizing the topic, and also to promote democratic values. And I think one legacy is that the 2019 protests really have is one first, you know, to show you know what over a terrorism's, the two phase of over a terrorism's, right, so that people who are committed to the values of democracy are even more committed, it has also reinforced the identities of the people were, you know, it was the first time where you know, there are close to 1/3 of the populations are working together, mobilizing together for the same cause. So that has implications to the collective identities. And we all know, the collective collective identity. And collective memories are a huge driving force to democracy movement, to all kinds of movement as well. I don't, I don't feel very optimistic about the futures of Hong Kong, at least in the short term. But I also acknowledge that if we want to be a better political community, this turmoil is this suffering. And this tensions that we are all and doing could be transformed, right in the future, in helping us to understand what is peace, you know, what is non violence? What is consensus building, and most importantly, how we are going to lift together with our boys trying to eliminate our counterpart.
Brad 1:13:28
And I think this is this is then that, hopefully, this is what you're talking about these these new ways to be able to advocate for democracy constantly, sort of these opportunities pop up. And now, you know, we have movements in in Myanmar, obviously, in Thailand. I know you previously mentioned the article 112 In Thailand, which which greatly strengthened law as much as the laws which are very unpopular, publicly, so that there's through this military alliance, then there is greater ability to, to support one another. And I know you said at the beginning of our interview, that one of your the foci is ways to support other activists. And so I'm wondering now, what are the ways or are there any ways in which through the milk tea Alliance, people in one country can actually give some sort of significant support to people in another country who are fighting for a different conflict, but ultimately are fighting for the same freedoms and the same democracy that everyone in the military alliance wants to achieve? Is there a way beyond just solidarity that different groups can actually tangibly help?
Johnson Yeung 1:14:50
Yeah, I think that is a challenge that we are beating and everyday we need to ask ourselves how we can do better and supporting each other, I can think about fuel ways. There are the person to persons support, that maintain the morale and also the well beings of activists who are exerting political influence or doing organizing. And that is something that sometimes overlook, because people are focusing on the strategies of the movement or the tactics of the movement. But I actually find that this is the niche of having a military alliance or having a regional solidarity movement. That is, when you have activists that are coming from similar walks of life, where you know, they are traumatized, or, you know, suffering from over a terrorism's they understand each other's difficulties, they might have a similar language in sharing the suffering and also trauma as well. And those peer support could be transformed and could be transformed into motivations, and also reasons for people to continue that struggle. So I think that's the first way. The second way is how, how may we exchange knowledges and failure or lessons about our mobilizing, and also our way of doing atomism? So you just mentioned, you know, 112, or the sortition, slaw, the architectures of oppression across the region, it's actually quite similar to each others. And then there are, you know, ways that people are trying to evade censorships or evade this oppression, architecture, innovatively and creatively. So this lessons can be used by the activities region as well, and localizing it in their own contexts, and sparking new ideas or innovations in their own activism and continue the movement. And then a third way is about how do we imagines the futures of our regions. So I think that's another part that I feel Nuka Alliance has, you know, contributed in some way that is to challenge the, you know, supreme muscIes, or the challenge to hierarchy of ASEAN, or, you know, also the international systems that we are living in? That in the past, when we talked about international developments or international school attorneys on human rights, we will often think about, Okay, let's go to the UN and then let's go to the, you know, ASEAN let's engage in this, you know, formal procedures and and system. So I think they are not our ways for us to work together is also trying to reimagine what kind of international systems or regional systems that we can co create, in supporting the people in centering the will of the people being one main challenges that nuclear alliance has one agenda that immunity Alliance has imposed? It is, do we always have to rely on the conventional international systems, such as the Iranians or the UN, in resolving the conflict that people have? And do? And this is still an experiment, I'm not saying you know, we already find the solutions and we can carry off the international systems that we are living in. But in the past, when we were saying, Okay, we need some international regimes in scrutinizing, humorous situations, we always thought about, okay, let's go to the Human Rights Committee, the United Nations, or let's go to the audience, and hopefully they will send some statement on on criticizing the governments and national governments. And we see in in the past few years, like the five point consensus, or the interventions of the United Nation, is largely it's largely captured by the elite is formal in a sense, but not very useful for his people. So the military alliance has getter, a groups of activists who sometimes might have influence over their national politics, and they can serve as an actor in transmitting the view of the people, such as those that are a member into their national politics as well. They can serve as a messengers in bringing upon the real messaging so true from the ground, and also the agenda setting of, of the Myanmar people. Um, so we've seen example like in Thailand on, you know how the Thai luteal Alliance interface has tried to shake the narratives about how Thai foreign policy should be shaped our games were more. So those are the experiments that the military alliance has been engaging. And I think that gradually might help us in CO creating a people center, foreign policy or people center, foreign relationship that is not dominated by the beat of the national or governments that we are living in, that we as citizens, also have a say and has a channel in influencing and shaping how we engage with our neighboring countries or neighborhoods. So those so this is, I think, one way that, you know, we are trying to support each others.
Brad 1:21:02
Excellent, excellent. And I want to talk as well, because so I know, I know that you are a co founder of milk tea Alliance friends of Myanmar, what does that actually entail?
Johnson Yeung 1:21:17
It entails groups of around 100 activists in almost a dozen countries that are concerning and paying attention to the situations of MMR. And they would use their own resources and foreign tears for a different role to support the actions and support the call from civil societies in Myanmar. It was originated in 2021, a few days after the attempted coup, one another co founders. And I received a call from some Burmese friends and Myanmar activists who were engaging in different issues such as racial inequalities, and also democracy movement. And when they call us they were obviously pretty. The same fan tried it and somewhat frustrated, you know, they want to know, like, why this authoritarian trend has been repeating, right? Why there's cool this military that coup has been repeating in their society, time to time. And they would like to have some peers to unpack with them about the what is happening in their country, and also trying to trying to co a co create some action together that we can support the movement on the ground. So I suggest, okay, let's have a call. All right, we're just gonna do a check in let's see what kind of actions we can do together. Right? We don't want to just publish a statement, why don't we do something more creative, like offline actions that have symbolic meanings or or to spread our messages. And then those mundane core has gradually evolved into a more regular manner, that not only people are coming here in those space, to share about action idea and also coordinate action idea. It has also become a space where people would share their traumas share things that they have been shared as happy been troubled with, to just find a sense of maybe peacefulness in reflecting, you know, what they have been doing, and try to regain some energies. And during COVID time, right, because a lot of people were stuck at home. And that's when I'm very, I think, okay, so maybe sometimes we don't need to be that strategic. Or we can choose to do some community gathering stuff and community building stuff. So sometimes, folks in the Friends of memoir space might come together, especially during the Cold time in playing among us, or some online games or watch documentary together to learn about each other country situations, to have a sense of community building. So, you know, all in all, this space is a very loose space with one underlying factor, which is memoir. But it is not entirely about memoir, and it's more about the people that are engaging into the same cause together, and we show up to support each others or we serve as a mirror for each other. to reflect on our movement. And, and that's, that's what friends of mine whitespace is about.
Brad 1:25:09
What's fascinating, so that it's, it's coming back into that question before of like, the ways in which you can provide support across borders across, you know, specific conflicts into maybe not necessarily, you know, tangible support in terms of here's a box of medicine or, you know, here's a shelter, but significant, significant assistance, nevertheless. And you also have mentioned that you're, you're working with with textiles, for the clean clothes campaign. Can you explain what that actually is as well?
Johnson Yeung 1:25:47
Yeah, so that's my full time job. And somehow Myanmar finds me again. My relationship with Myanmar is MEMA always finds me in the past 10 years. Yeah, we got to do that later. So let's talk about clean clothes campaign first. So that's my day job is I worked for the clean clothes campaign as the international coordinator for urgent appeal. And Kinkos campaign is a global network of 220 labor unions and social justice organization that are coming together to fight for a better garment and Textile Supply Chain. So workers and social justice groups working together, compelling and CO creating strategies to leverage brands, companies, manufacturers, and like minded citizens as well, encouraging our efficacy work, direct actions, campaigning, to fight for different ways to fight against gender based violence, to fight for a safer workplace and to fight for and to fight against cellphones fret and rage friend. So, Myanmar finds me because several years ago when I first land on this job, one of my first case was with a the two men bar, you see remember, it was about a Hong Kong company that were engaging in union busting in the Yangon area. So, that was one of the my first cases urgent impute cases that I work on and I get to know and get in touch with the manual labor movement. And since the coup actually, I become the person who is also engaging in solidarity work to memoir, where you know, the organizations were trying to support the security needs of the labor activists, if there is like violations such as rage FRep, which is very popular in Myanmar now, I mean, not very popular, I mean, it is very well spread right now in in Myanmar. So, we will try to go after the brands such as the Zara such as h&m or Adidas, that we're sourcing some of those factories and pressure them in providing remedies or stop the validations in the factories. We, we try our best team doing that. But the situations in in Myanmar, it's those violation is so widespread. And luckily we have also more international groups I would say other than the clinicals campaign are also supporting a member labor movement. And despite you know, there are a lot of violations and atrocity. We are trying to do many, many international groups are still supporting the labor movements in Myanmar.
Brad 1:29:09
And this is something that I think is very important because aside from the just the conflict, the pretty significant turmoil that the country is embroiled in the the textile industry in Myanmar is a massive industry. They obviously it's not the size of oil and gas exports. But it is an enormous industry employs a very large number of people. It's one of the primary exports of the country and it is also rife with as you say union busting with labor exploitation, withholding wages forced overtime, basically every every type of of labor rights violation that we can imagine it's it's pretty well entrenched in in the industry and and the salary is whenever good to start with, let's be completely honest. So, from my understanding, even if we go back to March of 2021, for those who might remember in those early days of the coup, in in about, I think around the 15th of March, the factories in hindsight, which is an industrial district in the jungle and was set alight, and allegations were being made on both sides, some were saying, Oh, the military burned them, some was saying the protesters burned them, many of the factories were Chinese owned. And that that day, the military went into hindsight and they shot dead, I think something on this scale of 6060 plus people in one day. And what was explained to me later was that this was not necessarily a protest against the military regime, per se, it was not a protest for democracy, per se. But what it was, was an act of anger and frustration over what the workers knew, would accompany a military government, which was the continued exploitation and the doubling down on that exploitation, the busting of the labor unions that they had spent a very long time trying to establish. So the fear of the workers being mistreated as a result was quite, quite tangible. And Myanmar has a very long history of, of union busting and exploitation of, of laborers. So I'm wondering within the scope of your work, do you see that there's a sort of secondary undercurrent not not just 100% saying, yes, democracy because democracy but this, this sort of parallel culture within this industry among workers, basically saying, it's not just about democracy, it's also about the fundamental way in which laborers are routinely abused and mistreated. And it is about a struggle for us, yes, to be able to elect our leaders, but also a struggle for us to be able to elect our union representatives, so that we can fight for a bargaining agreement, which is sufficient for us to be able to survive on and support our families.
Johnson Yeung 1:32:12
Absolutely, society is interconnected, and different struggle is also interconnected to and when I say society is interconnected, that is, if a country is under a political offer a terrorism's not only the government would put out and perform authoritarian at other elite or those in power, no matter they are working for the interests of those that are in power or working for their own self interest, they will also copy and duplicate the authoritarian act that they have seen and learn from the authority. So what we are seeing in in memory right now is a lot of factory owners is taking advantages of the political turmoil, the conflict, and also the authoritarian practice of the government. They might go after unionists, they might try to bend unions from forming unions, they might try to get police to arrest labor activists who fight for a better wage. Actually, last year, we had this one case where, you know, almost a dozen unionists and labor activists were supporting a wage struggle, because because of the hyper invasion, and also the, the lower wages, like some workers were suffering, and they were not even earning a minimum wage, not to not to, not to say a living wage. So there was this protest. And they were activists and Unionists were arrested by the regimes, and they were charged with, you know, a novel associations and, you know, engaging in protests. So, luckily, that time, there were more tensions on this case, and we were managed to mobilize some internationals some other international allies in pressuring the brand. And so four months after the arrest, this activists were released it it's really hard to pinpoint, you know, what, what caused the release, because this is, you know, what is happening in memory right now is very arbitrary. That, it does shows that, you know, labor organizing is at risk. And there are ways to fight back right there, at least there there there there should be attempts to fight back. So when you have a society that are few authoritarian practices, are the rights such as women's rights, LGBT rights, the rights of ethics, moralities, and the rights of the workers would definitely be affected as well. So, democracy is not just about beauty As a democratic institution, it is also about spreading a democratic culture, it is also spreading a consensus among the people that we will need to treat each other decently and not using force or violence to make each other's submit. So, you're right that, that not only there is like a secondary conflict that is happening in my right right now. There are multiple layers of exploitation that are intertwined. Under the backdrop of the conflict, the violence, and the repression against society. So that really leaves questions about okay, what list if we focus first, right, because now, do you focus on, you know, building democracies? Or do you focusing on, you know, tackling violations or factories? To be that question is also somewhat challenging in a beauty salon space as well, that is, you know, how should you spend your energies? And what is the best use of your energies? On on? On on a certain goal? There are, there are lots of discussion. And I think one one conclusions that, you know, I I come to terms is, there's not a single strategies, or single goal that everyone should take, rather, they should really interrogate themselves. What is our best niche? Right, what is our niche? What is our strength, individual strengths, or organization strength? And what is our sphere of influence as well, as long as we identifying this component, then we'll be able to identify what we should focus on, and how to spend our energy to maximize the impact that we want to achieve.
Brad 1:37:13
But of course, the flip side of the coin, then, is that as you say, that the goal here is for us to treat each other well, and to, as you say, spread a culture of democracy. Democracy is not just about achieving what, you know, a goal on paper, electing a certain person having certain legislative change, it is a cultural shift. Unfortunately, the opposition to democracy also seems to understand this, and they have a concerted effort to try to limit that to try to stop people from being able to speak out and I'm specifically referencing what what I know you've mentioned in the past, was an incident in Hong Kong, where the government or the authority intervene to shut down I believe it was a presentation by by a cdmo. Can you talk us through what actually happened?
Johnson Yeung 1:38:06
Yeah, so last year, I happen to have an opportunity to come across as the CDM medical workers who is based in Hong Kong. And his story was fascinating about how he engaged a CDM movement, how he has ethics morality has navigate the intersections between his identity and also the movement. So I invited him to do sharing in an independent bookstore, which are remaining civic space in Hong Kong, for people to talk about democracies or, you know, to talk about talk about, you know, liberal liberal culture. And one day before, the sharing, like the managers of the bookstore has received inquiries from the government, asking them if they have apply for a license, like an entertainment license for the event. Obviously, we're like, why, like talking about memoir, talk about it's not entertainment, and it was held in a private space. Anyway, so there is no need to apply for entertainment license. But still, like the government has pressure the bookstore and then of safety concern, right because we worry that the police might actually come to the premises and harass the the attendees of the event. Then we have to take it online. It was still a very good chat. Like I feel like the attendees really appreciate that especially, you know, they can hear the testimony and also the share personal sharing. Now Just about the Resistance movements in memoir, but also you know, how was it like to be a minorities in the society and how was it like to be a medical workers that working throughout the CDM movement and what it's like to be someone who is from them more and now that are that are that are that are staying in Hong Kong but that is one of the example about how different see if expats in Hong Kong were calling past it not only my event were shut down right there are multiple incidents that you know the fraud team I shut down film screening event they during the pandemic time they do they put out fIying and against people who pass it or pay in Pompeii found as well. So, it is highly contested, it has become an everyday life that we have to navigate and but that really, I mean that that incident that particular incidents, it does. It does anger me I will say because I was like talking about CDMA Myanmar is the least things that we can do as Hong Kong for Myanmar, like raising the alarm, talking about a situation, especially Hong Kong is the second largest investor in in memoire, right, there's so many manufacturers and so many investments that are coming in from Hong Kong, that are still complicit with the Myanmar koonta. And we as a homeowner, we have a obligation to at least learn about what's happening in that car. And also to do between our strings to show support or to go against bad actor that has been contributing to the volunteering, atrocity in Myanmar. So yeah, I mean, I was I'm so angry.
Brad 1:42:15
Imagine like, it wouldn't, it wouldn't be an easy sort of thing to have to have to deal with. Because it symbolically, if you if we think about it, and I'm sure you've spent quite a bit of time considering this, symbolically, this is effectively the Hong Kong authorities saying they, I mean, at the worst that they support the military junta, at best, it's them saying we do not want you to feel solidarity with the Myanmar democracy movement. Presumably, because democracy is a is a contagious idea. Civil liberties are a contagious idea. And there are a lot of powers in in the continent, who don't seem to want this revolution to succeed, because they are afraid that if a revolution succeeds, without Western intervention, without WESTERN AID, purely domestically, against the population, or by a population that is not armed, not militarized, that is in no way shape, or form prepared for this against the country that had the second largest military in Southeast Asia. That does not bode well for other dictatorial regimes in in the region, they're afraid that people are going to realize that they outnumber the police, they outnumber the military, they outnumber the politicians, by definition. So I can understand why the some bureaucrat somewhere in Hong Kong would have looked at this and thought, oh, heaven forbid that we start talking about democracy and other countries. But to actually go through with it when you stop and you think about the message that that's sending with regards to Hong Kong, effectively saying, Yeah, you know, what? military dictatorship is fine by us. We're good with that. It is it seems quite perverse. There's no There's no real other way I can.
Johnson Yeung 1:44:24
I think we understand their intentions a lot. I think you really speak to their intention. They were afraid about the spear over you vet are there at and also your inspirations that we can give to each other?
Brad 1:44:41
Yeah. And I think that's, that's the essence of the military alliance.
Johnson Yeung 1:44:46
In right after 2019. We have the Thai protests after the Thai protests. We have the Myanmar struggle and in between, you know, people in it India, they were mobilizing Indonesia as well, students were mobilizing as well. So indeed, right there is like spillover effect. And although and when we observe like the government is trying to shut down this international solidarity or you know, international exchange of ideas about democracy about equality, we then can understand where our powers are. Right? I'm, I'm Hong Kong. I don't have a lot of power. Yes, right. Like our political opposition's were ousted from the parliament. Many people are in the hearing in Excel or in in jail. So, you know, how, how would a Hong Kong person be able to exert political influence to support memoir? Yes, we don't have a lot of in yet, right. Yes, we don't have a lot of tangible political power. But at least we have the power to narrate our struggle, we have the power of putting out a narrative, to show that offer a terrorism's and dictatorship is not the majority. It is the common explorations among the youth, among the people in the region, that time after time, not just in the past few years. In the past few decades, those people's power movement that we've seen in the Philippine a memoir, time after time, has shows that terror and violence could not deter the people's will to gain freedoms, and to democracy in those stories has tied us together has continued to inspire us that we are on the right side. And we have entitlement to what we are fighting for, which is freedom, which is to treat each other decently to be able to live a society where people are dignified. And that's what the authority is offering off. That's what every single dictators in the region is offering off to afraid that people will be able to see between smoke and mirrors, see through the smoke and mirror and be able to take power in their own hands.
Brad 1:47:25
Absolutely. And I think I think the imagery is is, is really apt, because you talk about the spillover effect. And it just makes me think anyone who's had milk tea knows that when that stuff spills, it stains. You're not going to get rid of that or that easily. So I think it's a it's a very beautiful visual metaphor. But I also think that's a relatively natural place for us to conclude our discussion today. And I want to thank you for coming on and discussing these things with us today.
Johnson Yeung 1:47:57
Yeah, thank you. Like reflecting on what we have set at the beginning is about when we were engaging in activism or during social changes. There's always some people that we are fighting for and fighting with. fellow audience, I don't know, although I don't know you in person. But when I was we can't we are counting my activism. The struggle in VCR lines and the struggle in many places. You as a people is in my mind, right, you are providing a very important role. That is, you listen to my narration, you serve as a mirror to support me in reflecting what I've been doing, and how I can do better. And for that, I really appreciate it. And once again, like that's one power that they're 40 could not take away from us. And that's the power that we can show and support each other. So that's the essence of you know, why we are showing solidarity to each other, past the essence about why we are continuing in this struggle. And once again for that, I really appreciate it. Yeah, it's there will be a lot of difficulty ahead. But when you are in when you are disappointed when you're frustrated, just think about somewhere. Someone who was named Miss Johnson you might not know him, but you know, I thought about you a lot. And it's okay to despair. But you are not alone in this journey. We will win this together.
Host 1:50:02
After today's discussion, it should be clear to everyone just how dire the current situation is in Myanmar. We're doing our best to shine a light on the ongoing crisis. And we thank you for taking the time to listen. If you found today's talk of value, please consider passing it along to friends in your network. And please also consider letting them know that there is now a way to give the support to the most vulnerable and to those who are especially impacted by the military's organized state terror. Any donations given to our nonprofit mission better Burma, will go to the vulnerable communities being impacted by the coup. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need post. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission Better Burma. And the donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search Better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. That's Better Burma. One word spelled B E T T E R B U R M A.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's aloka crafts spelled A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.