Transcript: Episode #288: Anāgārika Munindra
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Host 0:16
Whether one is listening to this in Myanmar or from outside the country, we know it's a very difficult time for those of us who hold the golden land and its people in our hearts and trying times like these we can all use a bit more care and compassion in our lives. So on behalf of the team here at insight Myanmar, I would like to say in the traditional way meta has offered may you be free from physical discomfort may you be free from mental discomfort may You not meet dangers or enemies May you live a peaceful and happy life and May all beings be free and come out of suffering? And with that, let's move on to the show.
Host 1:55
On this episode of insight, Myanmar podcast we're talking to miracle master we're going to be discussing mainly her book and her research around it, the name of the book is called living this life fully. Stories and teachings of Moon Indra. And the subject of this talk will be Moon Indra via a a teacher, a meditator, someone who is very important and inspirational to share about for those meditators who don't already know him as well as those people that are interested in Burma, Myanmar, and, and seeing where his life intersected with some things in that country. So we're gonna be talking about this man, this book and miracles work. So thanks so much for joining us to talk about your book.
Mirka Knaster 2:42
Thanks for inviting me.
Host 2:45
So there's a lot to talk about with Munna, Indra, he lives such a full life as your title indicates, living this life fully, and touched upon so many different geographic places, historical eras, people who would become important in their life and intersect them in profound ways. So there's a lot to cover. But before we get into his later life, and when he became somewhat more well known, and what he was doing, let's take it back from the beginning and tell us about his early life and where he came from.
Mirka Knaster 3:16
Well, he was born in 1915, in a village in what was at that time, East Bengal, and later became after the partition, Bangladesh. And he was born into the borooah family, which was an ancient Buddhist clan that claim to have been descended from the Buddha's time, which is quite something. And they've kept up the Dharma all those many centuries. So he grew up with in a very loving family, his father became a monk, Sama Naira novice monk, initially. And unlike most monks, he did not leave the family and go live in a monastery, he still felt his responsibility as the head of the family, and to take care of his family, his wife and his, his sons. Unfortunately, the village ostracized him and the family for that. But eventually, things turned around. And the situation proved to be a really important lesson for min Indra because he vowed for the rest of his life, never to harm anyone else, the way people were trying to harm them. And this was a vow that he made and he kept it his whole life. So from a time of adversity, he turned it in into an opportunity to be a better person. He left he left the village and went to Calcutta in 1936. Oh, and I should go back a moment and say that while he still lived in village, him is his just a very interesting character. Because while most of us try to pass our exams, as high, highly in the class as high in the class as we can, even though my ninja was the top of his class, he actually refused to take exams. He made a decision that taking an exam and being the best, was always going to keep him in a sense on a ladder, the next test the next, the next point to achieve, and that's not what he wanted to do. He, he wanted to dedicate his life to the Dharma, even from a young age, because his father had given him books had read him stories about the Buddha. And from a young age, maybe even as early as eight years old. Man, Entergy wanted to answer questions that arose in his mind, hearing the story of the Buddha's life. So he purposely did not take the exams would fail the exams, so that he wouldn't get on that path of achievement. He wanted his achievement to be in the Dharma. However, everybody recognized how smart he was. And even though he was so young, he became a schoolteacher in the village. And he he taught the children there. He also had, I guess, you could say he had a scholarly bent from a very early age, he even built his own bookcase, so that he could put books on the shelves. And every time there was the opportunity for a gift, he just wanted another book, as opposed to a lot Oh, no, they didn't have toy trucks in that village. But he know the kinds of things that little boys might want. So this, this really showed from an early age, you know, it's almost like it's hard to know how to understand karma. If you grow up in Asia, karma has to do with past lives and future lives. But in the West, we understand it more as what you do, even in this lifetime, from moment to moment, has an impact on the next moment, or beyond that. Manager, however, you know, I, I know that his family, and he himself talked about it, he believed in past lives. And so it's possible that he had a past life that predisposed him to the life that unfolded in the 20th century. Or you could call it fate or destiny. But from an early age, he showed an inclination to walk the path of dharma, and to not let anything else get in his way, including getting married. His parents arranged, you know, arranged marriages were the thing. In some places, it still is. But in his case, his parents made the arrangements when he was very young, with a very young girl. And they would wait until the children had mature to get married, but they were in a sense, betrothed. Monetarily really didn't want to do this. And a very curious, devastating thing happened. The first girl and I say girl, she was a girl, not a young woman that he was betrothed to had a really strange experience and the details are in the book. And she died. And that really stirred my energies mind how fickle or how delicate life is. One moment Somebody's here and the next moment, the person who's gone it really had a big impact on him. Well, they tried with two more girls. And again, devastating Lee and Those two girls died. At that point, his parents relented and allowed him to go to Calcutta and study. And that's where he joined the Mahabodhi society.
Host 10:15
Right. So that's interesting look at his early life and coming from the Birla group in what's now Bangladesh, do we know much about the nature of the type of Buddhism they practiced or believed or their ethnicity as well as their community there this is I understand that minority group among in a largely Muslim area. And I should mention, we've actually had a guest on the podcast, who is from the Mara Maji group, I'm not sure if you're familiar with them. They're the way he describes it there in Rakhine State. He describes, Christopher witness his name as being a the ethnically linked to the brew people, but they're on the Burmese side of the border. So through him, we were able to learn a bit about his community Buddhist practices and, and, and, and how different that is really, from what you find with like Burmese Buddhists in among the bar people, but I wonder if you could tell us more about just the Baruah people and this the community where he grew up?
Mirka Knaster 11:26
Well, I didn't know about this other group that you're mentioning. What I do know is that because Buddhism basically faded away, so many centuries ago, in India, most of the practice was ritualistic. And, you know, lighting, creating an altar, putting fresh water and flowers and candles and, and this was something that his mother done. His mother, his mother used to do every morning and every evening, and then they would bless the boys when they came home from school. What his father actually did, I don't know, I don't know whether there was any kind of meditation. I mean, one of the A main impetus for man Entergy to go to Burma was to learn meditation to to practice, there was nobody in India at the time, according to him, that could teach him in that way. So my sense is that a certain amount of tradition had been carried forth, like not the practice as we know it, from the 20th century on and even in Burma. It wasn't until at some point in the 19th century, that meditation was shared with the laity. I think, you know, I remember when I was in Burma, and I, and I went to the big main temple in Yangon, that people were coming. And they weren't practicing meditation. They were, they were doing rituals, you know, is this kind of like, you know, people who don't go to synagogue all year, but then they go on the holidays, or they don't go to Mass every morning, but they show up for Christmas Eve mass at the church. Beyond that, I don't really know what they did. And I don't even know that monks were meditating because when he went to Calcutta and eventually wound up in Burma, when he came back from Burma, he was teaching. So that's as far as I know about the family. And you do know about Deepa Ma, the other well known teacher from Bengal, she was also a borrower.
Host 14:21
Yeah, very interesting stuff. And on our podcast discussion with Christopher when he talked about having a vague familiarity with both deep Amman when Indra just with the shared ethnic connection they have across borders and being interested in this little known ethnic group and what and, and these kind of representatives that would go on to
Mirka Knaster 14:46
moment because I remembered something. Remember, I told you his mother took care of the rituals in the household. Much much later, when, when Entergy was allowed to cross the bow order into East Bengal. He had not seen his mother for decades. He went back to the village in order to teach Vipassana to his mother. So nobody had been doing that for a very long time.
Host 15:15
Great, yeah. So going back to where we left off in a story, you have him now on his way to Calcutta before going further to Burma, pick it up from there.
Mirka Knaster 15:27
So he was in Calcutta. And he was working with the Mahabodhi society. And then, because they saw how diligent and honest and dedicated he was, they sent him to Sarnoff and he was there for 10 years, he took care of the library. He took care of guests who showed up including Gandhi and Nehru. He did whatever he he could do to foster the Dharma in Sarnath. And, again, because they trusted him so much. In 1948. The there were relics that were returned Buddhist relics. And they wound up sending a delegation carrying these carrying these relics around to Sikkim, and up to Tibet, and so on. And he was part of that delegation. And it was on that trip. And by the way, I described the trip it, it was a real highlight. In his life. When Andrew G was such a curious person, he wanted to learn, learn, learn, he wanted to go and see there was nothing that didn't capture his attention in a wholesome way. His curiosity was it was wholesome in that he just wanted to know even though he came from this little village, and by the way, that village, there was a cluster of villages, some Hindu, some Muslim, and Buddhist, and according to an energy, they all live together very harmoniously. There wasn't a problem until the partition. That's when the trouble started, and had all been living together in a very neighborly way. They played together, they went to school together and so on. Anyway. So he, he went off with this delegation. And this meant trekking in the Himalayas through through snow, three feet deep or higher. And eventually meeting His Holiness the Dalai Lama. That was just he, I mean, he was so thrilled to be able to do that just absolutely thrilled. And he stayed in touch with the Dalai Lama, all the times that the Dalai Lama used to come from Bodhgaya, then he and when engergy would get together. And so by the way, the Dalai Lama at the time was maybe 15 years old. Right. And they met at a temple, which they, the Dalai Lama, and his entourage had gone to because of, of course, Chinese problems, Chinese violence in the, at the main temple. So so he did that, that and they went to Burma as well. And it was from 1950 to 1951. After that, in 1953, and he stayed until 1957. He was assigned to be the first Buddhist superintendent of the Mahabodhi temple since the 12th century, all this time. It had been run by Hindus. And so Hindu practices were carried out there. But if I remember correctly, and I don't remember his name. It was a British archaeologist who discovered that it was not a Hindu temple, but it was a Buddhist temple. And so he was put in charge of the Mahabodhi temple in Bulgaria, which you could say but guy is the navel of the Buddha's universe because that It's where the Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree and had his awakening. He had a yeoman's job there. There were, there was a community of potter's that used one area as the train. And he tried to get the officials to remove the potters give them another place to live, so he could clean up the grounds. There were so many things that had to be done, fixed and cleaned up and he put in irrigation, he just did everything he could to make it a nicer place to visit, because now, pilgrims could come knowing that this was the Mahabodhi temple. And he he ran into quite a number of difficulties, but man, Entergy was absolutely fearless when it came to the Dharma. I mean, even though there's a word in, in India, he just said ganda, and it's like a goon or a tough guy, you know, someone that you wanted to steer a whole again, you know, someone you wanted to steer clear of. And he had to be really careful. There were people who actually warned him don't go there at night. Don't do this. Don't do that. Those hooligans, those goondas are gonna come after you. But he felt protected by the Dharma. So anyway, um, what happened was probably Prime Minister of Burma came, you know, now. Now things were set up for pilgrims to come. And he, he made such a huge effort because he felt ashamed that people would come, then it would be such a trash sight. And he was embarrassed for the place for the country. And so he did his utmost to make things better. Anyway, the prime minister of Burma came and invited him to come to Burma. This is new. Yeah. And he decided when Entergy decided anybody can come and be superintendent superintendent. This is an opportunity I cannot pass up. So he left his position after he did the major cleanup, and he went to Burma 1957. And he stayed until 1966. And there he practiced under the guidance of Mahasi saya Tao. And he also studied the Pali canon. And by the way, he accomplished going through the Pali canon in five years, that ordinarily took 15 years. He studied from first thing in the morning to late at night, just stopping to eat and sleep. And he had Oman mum was his scholarly tutor. And so between practice and scholarship, he became very adept. He did, he did achieve the first stage of awakening. And I have to say, I don't know how many more stages he achieved. And I'll tell you why. I don't know how it is in other traditions. But in the Burmese tradition, you don't go around bragging, what you've achieved. You just, you just it's not an ego trip, you know, you just stay quiet. If people ask you, you don't even say you, you, you obliquely make some kind of comment in order to answer the question. And so I don't really know, I just know that the way he described that experience. It had to be the first stage. But I don't know about other stages. In any case, Burma was an extraordinary experience for him. And he became a teacher there. There was a Bengali community. And they, many of them didn't know how to how to understand Mahasi Seidel, when he was giving the Dharma talk. So he was called into translate, and then he wound up teaching people.
Then he was offered citizenship in Burma. But he decided he needed to bring the Dharma back to India, where it had first arisen. And he felt, I guess he felt a huge obligation or responsibility after he had been treated so generously in Burma. He felt he needed to bring this forward, bring it into India, which is why so many Westerners wound up learning Vipassana, because he was in Bodhgaya. From 1966 to 1977. Teaching people, you know, Westerners showed up from Europe from Canada, Australia, South America, United States, and they many of them became teachers, Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg or they took on other roles like Daniel Goleman, the psychologist and so on. So he was very important in bringing the Dharma to India. And then from India, it was conveyed all over the world through your students. And I'm saying students and not disciples, because when Entergy never set himself up as a guru, he didn't believe in that for himself anyway. He, he considered himself a Kellyanne Amita, which is a spiritual friend. And he taught in that way. I will say he did spend some time in Burma as a monk. And he asked Maha seaside are permission to disrobe. So he could go back to India. And he felt that as a monk, his ability to teach would be very limited. Number one, there was no how shall I put it, institutional support. You know, when Burma, the monks get up in the morning, and they make their rounds and they get food, but you he couldn't do that in India, there was no Buddhist community to support him. So he felt that being a Kalyan AMITA being an Anagarika, which means homeless one. So he was somewhere between being a monk and a householder. He never established a household, he never got married. But he also wasn't a monk. And so in between, he was an undergrad, Erica, and this allowed him to interact with men and women, to teach young and old, and to go to places and do things that monks would not be able to. So that was a very, how shall I say? A very considered decision on his part, because he wanted to be able to share the dharma as widely as possible. And so that's what that's what he did in in Bodhgaya. And he became a really important and vital model of how to integrate practice and daily life because he was someone who lived daily life, he wasn't secluded, sequestered in a monastery. And after that, from 1977, on he was invited by his many Western students. And he traveled to the US and Europe and Australia, teaching everywhere he went. So
Host 28:57
just to take a moment to look at the kind of spiritual status or identification he came to take on, I understand why he stepped down from being a monk after leaving Burma, just the infrastructure wasn't there. And it's also it's more rigid in terms of what you can and can't do and this religious identification, but if you can explain the other way, why would he choose to remain Anagarika? What benefit Did that give him? What structures did he have to live by? Rather than just simply becoming a layperson?
Mirka Knaster 29:34
Well, in a sense, I mean an Anadarko is a layperson. And for him well, first there wasn't. In a lot of ways, manager Ji was an adventurous person. Making the decision to be an owner Gorica meant he He, in a sense, threw himself on the goodness or generosity of the world. Because he had no income. He had no, he had no home. He had no money to buy a house or anything like that. But he chose to be homeless. And he used to tell his students, they'd say, Oh, aren't you happy to be back in Calcutta with your family and, and he'd say, everywhere I go, I have a home. He just felt at home throughout the world. In any case, he felt that this would be the best way for him to teach, even though there were a lot of risks, would he have a place to sleep? Would he have food? Would he able to maintain his his body and mind without earning any money. And he never asked for any money. But people would give him Donna, they would make donations to him. In fact, there was one story. So there was an energy, everybody who came to see him, he was hugely, hugely generous, whoever showed up, he would give them fruit or whatever he had. And there were all these Westerners, and one day it hit Joseph Goldstein. You know, here we all are coming from a wealthy nation, none of us is poor, or we wouldn't have been able to even get over here. And here's my energy, feeding everybody. So he went up to an energy and he said, you know, shouldn't we be giving you some money? Shouldn't we be helping you in some way? And when energy said, you know, whatever, you whatever you feel comfortable with him? He didn't. He never asked anybody for anything. He just let it happen. His whole approach was, let it happen. He didn't beg for money. He didn't beg for Donna. And so they started giving him money. And that, that helped him to continue. And this happened locally as well. Because in India, people understood about making donations. The Westerners did not. And but they learned, they learned and they helped to take care of
Host 32:40
him. Yeah, yeah, very interesting. And I want to spend some time about moving into his years in Burma, before we get back to going to India and the Western disciples, students that he came in contact with that would or some of whom are our big names today. Before spending time looking at that relationship. I want to understand better about these years in Burma. And it sounds like he continues to meet a high caliber of people, you know, he's, ooh, new brings him there. You mentioned who among Mal, who is his personal tutor, he would go on to become a president of Burma. He associates with Mahasi Seda, one of the great monks and meditation masters at the time. And so I'm curious if you could flesh out some of those years that he spent in Burma looking at the kinds of practices he dedicated himself to, we know Mahasi primarily, but if there were other teachers or techniques or traditions that he explored, as well as just how all of those years and Burma would have profoundly changed him.
Mirka Knaster 33:53
Well, yes, ma si. Sayyida was his preceptor. And he was eternally grateful to him. In fact, he had a piece of cloth, that Maha seaside had given him and he always put that piece of cloth down. Before he started to meditate. He was a connection to his teacher. He, as I said earlier, was an extremely curious, interested, exploring investigative kind of person. And so after he had studied with Mahasi Seidel, he asked him for permission. And Mahasi Saito gave him permission to go to other centers. And it turned out I'm not sure if I have the number, right, but I think it was. There were 48 other techniques that he could to engage in, so he went to these different centers, learn these different techniques didn't necessarily he didn't shift. And continue only in another tradition, he stayed with the Mahasi way. But learning all of these different ways, enabled him to be a much better teacher. He could discern in a student what that person needed, and maybe doing something that he was teaching was not exactly what the person needed in that moment. And he could guide the person to do something else. So in a sense, you could say he had a bigger bag of tricks. That helped him as a teacher. It also gave him it also made him even more open minded than he already was. He was not someone to claim to his students, and to say, Oh, you only have you can only practice with me. Or you must only do it this way. He would, he would, wasn't even about allowing. Students would come and say, Oh, I heard about such and such a teacher or heard about such and such a method. And when Andrew D would say, oh, go, go and learn for yourself, go and try it out for yourself. Then he would want the person to come back and relate to him how it was. He just wanted to know how people were doing. And he didn't feel like he was losing students by sending them to someone else. No, in Burma, he became very good friends with a single Wangka he would go over there and have meals with the family. And then later when Goenka G came to India, when Indra Ji sent him, student after student for his retreats, and so I feel there was no clinging. Now, the main point is not to claim not to be attached. And when Entergy really exemplified this by sending his students to other teachers, or if they requested all what about this? What about that? He'd said, yeah, go ahead. And one student actually asked him one day when your duty aren't to my guru, he said, I have nobody's guru. He's just call Jana Mita. And you can go and study with anyone you want, go and go and derive benefit from anyone. So I think that his experience in Burma really enabled him to be even more broad minded and open hearted. And this was a great example, to his students. I think about Joseph. Now he wrote a book called one dharma. And this was after experiencing so many different techniques and practices. And even though my energy was his first teacher, and taught him in the Mahasi, method, Mahasi way, so I think this had a big impact on him. The other thing that happened in Burma was this ability to study the entire Pali canon, so thoroughly, so minute ly, that it became imprinted on his very being, didn't matter who he spoke with over the decades. If you said X, he could come out in with a quote from a suta, or from the Abbe Dhamma, or from any part of the Tipitaka and he was a walking encyclopedia of the Dharma. This helped a lot of people in fact, when he was in India, and used to stay with go Inca, God got Puri, in done McGarry, and they walked together they were always discussing the fine points of the Pali canon. And when he was in residence there, man engergy was basically the scholar in residence If anyone had a question about something, they would, he would, that person would be sent to him an energy to explain, because he's so thoroughly knew what the Buddha had taught. So those are two examples of how being in Burma had a huge impact, not only on his own life, but on all the people he came into contact with. He said that the reason he was able to study so diligently, so thoroughly in those five years, it was, he felt as though the Buddha was there in the room with him. And that because of the experience he had had practicing on DiMasi Seidel. He had that how do I say it was in his body, and it was the whole, the he had the experience in his body. So then, when he was reading, when he was studying the Pali canon, he understood it, because he had the experiential background, as of as a foundation for understanding.
Host 41:15
That's very interesting, and lots of different threads that I want to pull from that. That discussion of his time in Burma. I want to start with his association with SN Blanca, and see how do you begin, and the places where they intersected, and also the places where perhaps they diverged and understand a bit in those divergences, how they might have seen things differently, and yet, their dama friendship, their connection seems to have been strong throughout it. And that's that you describe this kind of unquenchable thirst for an interest in wanting to learn learn to know more and this both within the Dhamma and outside the Dhamma, but within the Dhamma, and Myanmar, how that leads him to go into different teachers practicing different techniques, learning different things himself. So he can then teach different things very eclectic, very flexible, very open, in terms of what he was able to absorb and take in. And when you look at the methodology in the program of Sri Lanka and see it, you begin, you have a very different way they approach the Dhamma in terms of having a singular technique and cautioning students not to sample other practices that this will confuse them that it's important to really dedicate to dig, dig a hole and not just dig a whole bunch of holes and different places, but to dig one hole and diligently continue working on that particular hole without kind of going here and going there as an analogy that going because used. And so in your study and analysis of his life and was being around him and the many people that you talk to, how did you see this kind of divergence playing out in terms of the way that that the Dhamma was approached by these individuals as well as what impact or effect that had on their, on their relationship on their mission and how perhaps, maybe they even talked about that with each other the different ideas they had of how one should approach the practice?
Mirka Knaster 43:24
Well, they considered each other dumb of brothers. And, you know, you can grow up in a family and siblings are very different from each other. And they grew up in a in the family of dama. But they, they had different personalities. And I think this is just my own interpretation. Manager he had his quirky, open minded, spirited, curious personality. And Blanca ji had his own personality. He had been a businessman before and I don't know, I don't know whether that influenced how we did things, or because of his learning from Sayagyi u BA, Khin and his gratitude for, in a sense, saving his life because of the horrible migraines that he had. So I, I personally think it's a matter of different personalities. And I think about people who are drawn to Zen. Think about people who are drawn to Tibetan Buddhism, and other people who are drawn to the Theravada tradition? For whatever reason, a different tradition speaks to us. Different techniques speaks to us. And I'm not going to psychoanalyze these two fabulous teachers go to G. I did my very first 10 Day vipassana retreat, my first second third retreats with him. And it had a huge impact on my life. Huge. I remember after my, after my first retreat, Adama Giri, I started to see my life as BV and AV, before the positive and after the godson and was an eternally grateful to him. I didn't stay. Only with his technique, I still know how to do it. But I didn't stay only with that. And again, I think it's an individual, individual, individual path that we all take.
Host 46:13
Yeah, and the question is not coming so much from an interest in psychoanalyzing them, it's more that these are two paradigms that I think continue to impact the meditation, Buddhist Dharma communities today, these two very different ways of approaching it, which has impacted 1000s of students, if not millions, in terms of should one approach this path through dedicating a particular lineage or teaching and not stepping outside of that not exploring or being creative or playful, but really just dedicating to one tradition technique only and going deep into that without being distracted, or confused, as they might say, or, on the other hand, an eclectic approach where one is sampling this and that, and these different kinds of practices, and maybe even being loose with what's within a Buddhist framework and being more flexible, and, and an open and creative and playful. And you know, it's not black and white, there's a lot of shades of gray in there different phases one might go through, but I think what's so interesting to me, is seeing how the mindfulness movement meditation movement has developed over the years and kind of what categories have become ossified of that were a bit more flexible before and especially once we get to a period in the 1970s. in Bodhgaya, the spiritual communities that formed there that were that were quite amorphous and inflexible before some of these categories came in, is that, you know, there is there is this distinction of communities now of people that are more open and practicing different things, and people that are, are really just in largely in the blanket tradition, really just sticking with one thing, and one thing only. And it's so interesting to think of these classifications that have become ossified and taken shape, that you actually had them personified in a very rich and warm and close dama friendship that perhaps even where these, these categories and classifications came from, that you had these two very close dama friends that that really loved and supported and encouraged each other. And yet, their approaches were so different that didn't impact their friendship, but it did seem to impact these communities that have grown up since.
Mirka Knaster 48:34
I don't know what to say about that, except that some people are drawn to flexibility and some people need things to be more highly structured. I can't, I'm not going to weigh in on what's better. I just think it we're so many, all of us are so different. And we need to do whatever works for us. If it works for us to try different things. And maybe come to the thing that eventually clicks the best. Why not? If it works for us, to stay within the bounds of a particular structure. And so be it. I think that manager Django Wangka G as dharma brothers exemplify something very important, which is sorely lacking, especially in these times. And that is why can Aren't we embrace our differences? Why can't we be friendly? Despite our differences? Why do we have to fight over them? Why does one of them have to be right? And one of them has to be wrong. That's the part that the fact that they could maintain their friendship, even though they had these personality and experiential differences, represents a model, we would do well to follow.
Host 50:41
And right, I think one of the interesting things and looking at this relationship now, of course, is that sometimes students might not necessarily be making their own decisions or their own agency in which they're pursuing you, you get, you fall into a community or into a certain teaching or a culture. And that conditions the way you start to see what practice should be. I mean, I know that was definitely my case of doing many years of a certain type of practice before I went to Burma, and then in Burma, realizing the conditioning of that had gone into the practice that I took on and my many years in Burma started to expose some of that. But then as I stayed longer in Burma, I saw the conditioning there. So you know, sometimes just the community or the practice of the culture you fall into starts to influence you in ways that are, can take some quite some time to unravel and untangle. Right,
Mirka Knaster 51:36
and what you're talking about, is basically, that each one of us, has our own path, own our own evolution or development in in the Dhamma. And who's to say, how someone should do it. Sometimes we have to go through a lot of ups and downs. And until we are able to discern more clearly what really is best for us, or what is most wholesome, most skillful. And I don't think that trying different things is a bad thing, because that's how we learn.
Host 52:24
So staying with his time in Burma, we've talked a bit about his relationship with SN Goenka. Perhaps if you can touch upon what what connection he had with saggio became who was going to his teacher as well as Mahasi. Say it get into that relationship?
Mirka Knaster 52:41
I don't know. I don't know how much of a relationship he had with a pumpkin. I think he probably he did meet him. He did try it. But I don't know how long he he stayed with that Mahasi cider was his preceptor. So his, his main connection was with Mahasi. And I imagined going good. He was very happy. That man engergy did practice with his teacher that I have, I have no idea beyond that. I don't know how much time they spent together.
Host 53:28
Right and then looking at Mahasi said this was his preceptor his main, as I understand it, his main meditation practice, even though he had permission to explore many other techniques. But what do you know about his, his his practice of meditation with Mahasi, as well as the relationship with the man himself and how he was influenced by that?
Mirka Knaster 53:54
Well, he felt enormous ly grateful to his teacher. And when his teacher came to the United States, my energy was there by his side. Mahasi saya Tao is in the middle of the photo, when energy is on his right side, and there are two other people there and I'm not sure who they are, but this was in 1977. You know, if you have the kind of opening that went into jihad, practicing under Mahasi Seidel. This is a very, very deep connection to your teacher. Know that your teacher was able to guide you to have to take that step on the path to awakening. So, as I mentioned he he had a cloth from his teacher, and he never failed to put that cloth down for his Meditation. So that's what I know about his connection to Mahasi Seidel. What kind of conversations they had or anything like that, I don't know. But I imagine that because Maninder G was eager to explore. And Mahasi Seidel was lenient enough, willing to give him permission to go explore. And then later to understand why when energy wanted to disrobe. I just imagine a very close, warm connection between the two of them, that there was great understanding between the two of them. know not everybody, not every teacher will say, yeah, go do this or go do that, or no, you can't read this. You can't. You can't just you need to stay a monk. So I imagine they had a warm and cordial relationship of understanding. Beyond that, I don't know. Because trying to remember. I know I never met Mahasi Seidel. I met his disciple who I knew I went to retreat with a pandita. So I saw open data. And oh, here's another example who Pandita am an energy. Were students, disciples of Mahasi Seidel at the same time, and they think there was a third person. I don't remember who that is. And look at how different upon the time and energy work even from the same teacher Yeah. Again, it has to do with personality. No, Pandita was Saito Pandita just had an enormous organizational skills was able to accomplish so much. When Entergy didn't have that kind of let's see. I don't know if it's skill or push, you know, to establish structures. No, like Saito opendata had the center in Rangoon and I I did a retreat at the forest refuge. Me he accomplished a lot in that regard. When Entergy was not that kind of personality. He was more free floating.
Host 57:45
That's very interesting it going off that last conversation it also it's interesting thinking about this, and realizing that how the personality entertaining intertwines with the Dharma. And I think that sometimes when we have a teacher or a guide, it can be hard to separate the inspiration we get from their dharma practice with who they are as a person, which might not be who we are as a person. And so being able to, to be inspired and learn from the Dhamma practice that's being given but then to find a way to fully integrate it without mimicking or imitation of another personality and to have it embody something who we really are, even if that's categorically different than the teacher, the tradition, the culture that is bringing that to us.
Mirka Knaster 58:40
Exactly. And you do know that Burmese expression, I may not paraphrase it exactly, but it goes something like this. The bottle bottle is empty, but the perfume is still there. And basically, it means you can be free empty of greed, hatred and delusion. You may have achieved all four stages of awakening. But the perfume is still there. You're still a human being with a personality. So no matter how much you have attained in the Dharma, you still have a personality. And that personality may be something you sync with, or maybe you don't, but you can appreciate the teachings that come from that individual.
Host 59:47
Right yeah, that's, that's well said.
Mirka Knaster 59:49
I find I have to discern between maybe two Something I don't click with in a teacher's personality, and what that person is still able to convey. Because there's that you don't know why sometimes you don't. You don't feel connected to a person, or you do feel connected to a person. And so you have to pause. Even if I don't feel connected to that personality. Can I still learn here? Or will that get in the way of my learning? And we, you know, we go through, we go do we go through different stages on the path of dharma, when I think of where I was, on my first retreat with going Koji, and by the way, at that time, dharma Giri was barely constructed. We had dirt floors, we had no showers, you know, nothing, you know, was very, very, very rudimentary, at that time, very basic. And where I was as an individual, as a young woman, to where I am now, I mean, I understand things about Dharma that I couldn't do at that time, with all the all the stuff that I was carrying with me, and yet he was the perfect teacher for me at that time.
Host 1:01:39
Right and going back to moon Indras actual practice with in the technique of Glencoe slash Oba can it's my understanding that, that Uber kin declined to teach him when he was in Yangon because he was a monk and we'll begin with sensitive about the criticism he would receive of a lay person teaching a monastic. But that when minions read disrobed, went back to being an Anagarika, went to India and wanted to learn from Glinka Goenka had asked permission from Uber kin, to to teach him and said yes, sure. Go ahead.
Mirka Knaster 1:02:20
Yes, I'm now thank you for for bringing it up. I'm now remembering that I had forgotten about that part. That he did not study with a Belkin in Burma. Yeah. Yeah. You know, people, you know, there's a, there's a certain etiquette that people follow, to not step on other people's toes. So that makes a lot of sense what you're saying.
Host 1:02:54
And before we move to his return to India, which is another very important time in his life and the influences he had there. Just one last question on Burma. I'm curious if you found how just simply the experience of being in Burma changed him. I mean, even today, for myself, as well as many other foreign meditators, practitioners, monastics that spend time in Burma away from the actual practice, the teachings, the particular technique that's been taught, the mere experience of being in Buddhist Burma being around Burmese, monastics and lay supporters in the culture that itself can be can be transformative. And so I'm wondering if he gave any indication or talked about his experience of the time in Burma, which, beyond the specific association with a type of teacher or a technique, he was practicing just the experience of being in Burma, if he referenced how that had an impact on him? He
Mirka Knaster 1:03:55
did. He, in fact, I guess the way a good example might be, so when he was leaving Burma to return to India he was he there were like something 27 crates of books, Dharma books. And the military didn't allow anyone to take anything out of the country. And everybody warned him. You can't do this. We will let you. You said oh, I'll go and see them myself. He never let anything get in his way. He was fearless in that regard. And he went to see the you went through the first guard and the second guard and the third guard. And each time exclaiming, how Burma was his country as well that Burma, the people, the culture, the Dhamma that he got there, they were like a mother to him. And so the for scard allowed him to go to the second guard. And he told the same story. And then he finally went to the third garden. Everybody was, I guess impressed with how they were struck by his incredible sincerity, about what Burma meant to him. A Burma changed his life. And that he was forever grateful. And that because of that, he needed to bring the Dhamma from Burma back to India. So the military had, I guess, they had a committee meeting or something. And they eventually, not only did they allow him to bring the books back, they helped him pack the crates. It just goes to show how much he conveyed about the importance of Burma to his life. And so the end, and hundreds of people came to see him off on the ship. He felt he felt like he was he was leaving his place his his home. He also felt how important it was the responsibility that he had to bring the Dharma back to India. So those nine years in Burma were transformative, no way about it. Imagine you come from India, where you're only part of this little group of Mahabodhi society. And you land in a country where everything is Buddhist, where every person is maybe not practicing in the way he learned how to practice. But there was a reverence for the Buddha, the Sangha. And everywhere, everywhere you turn, you know, there's a temple, there's a ritual, there's, there's, the monks are walking at dawn through a community and being given rice and, and just watching how families, they didn't start out with meditation, the way Westerners did. They started out with Donna, they would hold their small children. And teach the child how to give rice to the monk, monks that were passing by. That was the first thing they learned, not how to sit in meditation. So being, being in this kind of atmosphere, he was soaked, he was soaked in Dhamma. And that was a very big deal, a really, really big deal. And he carried that with him ever after.
Host 1:08:04
And that's really beautiful. And now we have him going back to India, this is an incredible moment to spend some time reflecting on because you have this confluence of events that are all happening in this time and space that one can scarcely script out if you were trying, in terms of Menendez life and the greater forces in the world at that time. You look at going into his life, and he's so at this point, he's resisted the marriage offers of his, his parents were trying to impose on him went down a scholarly path, went to both Gaya from there, went to Burma and has now he has this Rolodex, you can say of very important figures, both worldly and spiritual. And he himself has dedicated himself to the scholastic and practical sides of the Dhamma on become very renowned and in his knowledge and his wisdom and is now going back to India to want to bring the Dhamma there but of course, this is a period where the counterculture movement in the west the hippies are taking off they're seeking something beyond their own materialistic culture looking for answers elsewhere. This is also when Glencoe is mission really is starting in its full force. He, his mission also coincides with the this this counterculture movement, and Moon Indra falls right in the middle of that in these worldly events that are going on, but also in his own life. This is where his own trajectory has led him to this point as well. And so pick up from there and describe what awaited for him as he left Burma after these nine years with these great crates of books that the military have not only permitted, but actually packaged for him, and he now finds himself back in India.
Mirka Knaster 1:10:00
Yes, I think you said something really used an important word you couldn't have scripted this. The fact that Westerners were you know, in those days, you could go overland through Afghanistan, to India, and a lot of young people were doing that, through, they were moving through Europe, and then all the way through Afghanistan to get to India. And remember, also, young, the younger generation, was absolutely disgusted with the lies that government told them about Vietnam and other things. So where were they going to find some truth, everybody was seeking, not everybody, but many of us were seeking. And also religion, traditional religion, institutionalized religion, held no allure. Some people chanced upon Asian philosophy courses. And, oh, this sounds really interesting and decided to go to India. Or, in Joseph's case, he was in the Peace Corps to Thailand, and Sharon went to India after taking a course. And it was just a big opening, people were being exposed to things that they hadn't been before, and that previous generations had shown no interest in. So all these young people were showing up in India. And they happened on Mon engergy, in Bodhgaya. At first he was staying in the Gandhi ashram, he had a room. And he, you know, just managed very, very simple life. Maybe somebody said, Oh, well, you could go speak to this guy, or, you know, he was friendly, so he would meet people. And, you know, because of his openness. The fact that these young Westerners were hippies, the way they dressed, the way they did things, the way they were doing drugs, and, you know, maybe dressing not modestly, like you're supposed to in India. He didn't judge them. He saw through all of that. And he could invite them, talk with them, teach them. So he was in the right place at the right time. And they showed up in the right place at the right time. And that's how it all started. So many people, I mean, not just Joseph and Sharon, but wronged us, and in so many people who are well known today came through and learn from him.
Host 1:13:21
Yeah, that's remarkable. I know, we've interviewed some of the same people. Some of the people you've interviewed for your book we had on our podcast, such as Graham white, Barry lapping Michael Stein, among others. And what I find interesting is when I've asked them separately in separate interviews, about their time in Bulgaria and India, their relationship with some of the spiritual teachers, including when Indra and Blanca, they've actually used the exact same language and analogy in describing their relationship to these two teachers independently, they've used this and so I want to share that with you and get your thoughts on unpacking why they would phrase it this way. They would describe it as Moon Indra was like your mother and Glencoe was like your father. So how do you understand that them characterizing the relationship as such?
Mirka Knaster 1:14:11
People have said that, I think it's because when Entergy, he was some people described him as motherly. And other people described him as neither male nor female, but somewhere in between. Kind of androgynous. He was motherly in the sense that when you met him, the first thing he did was ask how you are, you know, he wanted to take care of your physical needs first. And he would give you food, I mean, he acted in a motherly way. He had a very Sweet, generous nature. And he looked after his students the way a mother would. I, I remember going Gigi as having a strong, booming voice when he chanted, it was fabulous. I remember I could feel the vibrations in my body when he chanted. And so he had this strong, masculine presence. And I don't know whether people distinguished mother, as I don't know, maybe more, more lenient. And Father is more disciplinarian. Maybe that's the way people think of it, I don't know. But he was. He just had this really sweet, kind, generous nature. And he never yelled at anybody. He didn't have a big powerful voice doing the way going, he did. In fact, one of the things I'm trying to remember what one of his one of the students said to me, you know, he would come into the room, and you wouldn't feel it. But when a powerful teacher came into the room, you could feel the disturbance in the air, you could feel the movement in the air. So they just, they were different physically. And they were different personality wise. But many people commented on how caring mantra D was like a mother. In fact, there was there's one monk and two monks in particular, who said he was like a mother to me, because this monk had come from Vietnam. And he just he didn't have any means. And when Entergy made sure to share his food with him, and later to get funds for him to be able to stay in practice.
Host 1:17:25
That's really beautiful. And it's also making me think how I've heard some Western practitioners share a concern that because they're coming from lay life into a monastic practice, whether they're a meditator or a monastic, just kind of moving away from worldly relationships, that sometimes their interactions with Buddhists, that Buddhist monks, especially in nuns, that are from native Buddhist cultures in Asia, that there's kind of a softness or an affectionate nature have relations that they don't really sense because they've been a they've been in robes for all their life. So they've these kinds of social engagements which bind us together, they don't have so much because they've been on that path for so long. They might have extraordinary meta, I've heard friends of mine share the tremendous spiritual, meta and force and vibration that some of these teachers have. But then in personal interactions, there's something they feel that's kind of missing or different or divergence. This is not to make a blanket statement at all. I've met myself, I've met some tremendous monks and nuns in Burma that would this would not fit their description at all. They've just been they've been lifelong monks and nuns, and yet they've, they don't just have spiritual metta, but they also have this some this wealth of how one interact socially in a way that just brings everyone in and makes you feel connected and loved in this powerful way. Although there is the experience of those that fall outside of that. And so I mentioned that dynamic because it's very interesting to in your description of why when Indra was motherly that it sounds like he had both of these qualities he had both the spiritual quality of the meta which could could be sent in special ways to support someone going through a difficult time or undergoing practice. And yet it wasn't limited to that it was also in a in a very personal way to people that perhaps had no interested no interest in the Dharma and never practiced and never would, but would still feel some kind of personal connection or charisma and even love or affection being drawn to him just being in the same room.
Mirka Knaster 1:19:41
Yes, and again, that is why he became an undergrad Erica, and didn't stay monk, a monk because he wanted to be able to or he needed to be able to deal with people on multiple levels. You know, not just teaching in a meta Taishan Hall. Know when Jack Engler came to India to do research for his PhD. The first thing the first thing when engergy asked him and Jack had just traveled, oh my gosh, probably plane and train and bus and rickshaw and, you know, it's a very, very long journey in those days. And the first thing when Entergy asked Jack angler, how are your bowel movements? He was so taken aback because he thought, even though I'm so tired, let's get going on the research right away, you know, I'm an energy was No, first we have to take care of your body. And then we'll move on to the work. And so he was very conscientious about health and hygiene. And not just for himself, but for the people he came into contact with, you know, he would never have been able to offer food or do other things. If you had been a monk, there was one fellow he wasn't sure he may have had some people think he may have had cholera anyway. He was in such a bad way. In the middle of the night. My ninja got a rickshaw and started taking him around to two doctors to help him you know, how many among couldn't do that? And how many teachers could do that? Or would do that. We might have an assistant do it. They might just leave it to the person. Right. But man, Entergy was so kindly and caring in that way. His meta was unbelievable. And when some of the students talked about how, if you were just in his presence, it was like a blast of metal hit you. And this was with everyone. No, he didn't. I think it was his, his nephew who had said to me that what he had two nephews and one of them said to me, you know, my uncle never discriminated. He was just the same, the same kindness and to everybody the same metta to everybody, whether you were a rickshaw puller, or you know, you were a Dharma student. Metta was for everyone.
Host 1:22:48
Right. And as he starts to come into contact with more of these Western students, this is again where we have to look at this divergence in his spiritual and dharma friendship with Glencoe where as Goenka was setting up his early mission, and that included not just a lineage and meditation technique and administration in terms of how these courses were offered protocol, everything that went into that. It seems that moon Indra couldn't have been more opposite this that he was you mentioned before, he didn't even want to see himself as a, as a teacher. He was a spiritual friend or guide motherly. And yet, Joseph Goldstein from one although he did practice, he did take courses with Glinka he came to see himself somewhat as a, as a student of winnin drawn and talked about him, I believe, as one of his teachers as he started to go forth in his own teaching career, he presented a certain model that really influenced a lot of teachers.
Mirka Knaster 1:23:44
He expressed confidence in his students, even when they didn't have confidence in themselves. And because of that, their own confidence grew. He wasn't strict in the sense of you have to do this. You can't move you can't whatever. He just let people he let his students progress in their own at their own pace. He always had some Vega, you know, the sense of spiritual urgency and he tried to convey that to people. But he could push he would push only so far, you know, only so that it would only to the point of being effective. He also he also saw that, you know, students have they come with different backgrounds, they come with different baggage. And if you are a striver, having somebody really push you again and again to the edge is not the best way. So he tempered the way he taught, with everybody according to their needs. And he entrusted people early on, when he saw that they, when they could articulate the Dhamma, that they'd had enough experience, he would put them in his place. In other words, Alan Alan Clemens. He was a monk at the time. He had been practicing with Mahasi. And he was with Whitman energy at a dinner, I believe it was in Calcutta. And it was appropriate to at that point, for the teacher to give a talk. And he pointed down to give the talk. As Alan said, I was sweating bullets. I've never given a Dhamma talk, what was my intraday doing? And he says to him in energy, first, you know, like, you're the teacher on and, and he said, and guess what I, I don't speak Bengali. And he, Salman engergy, pointed to himself, and he said, Oh, no better translator, you know, and so he, he, he put L and in this position of the head, do it, you trust that he could do? He had the confidence in him. And he did this with various students. Even though they didn't feel they were ready. Yeah. He saw something in them. And he, in a sense, imbued his own confidence in them, for them to develop self confidence. So Alan said, that was my first ever Dhamma talk, and I was a wreck before but Thank you, Minister G for setting me on the path. So he had this uncanny way of, you know, on the outside, you could look at what he was doing and think, oh, so laissez faire, but he was he was not negligent. He was not ignorant of what he was doing. He saw something in people there was. There was a couple that came to see him in Bodhgaya. For me, maybe they maybe they were in Calcutta, too. I don't remember now. Anyway. And he sent them to Burma. He said, Oh, you need to go to Burma and do this retreat. And, and the fellow said, Oh, no, I can't even sit here for 10 minutes. How can I go and do that? Oh, no. Yes, you can. I'm sure you can you Will you do it you. And so Boyd on when introduced enthusiasm and confidence in them. They went to Burma, do a retreat. And it was very intense retreat, I think lossy. But that's that's what he did. He he just infused people with his own, in a sense. His own SATA his own his own faith and confidence in the Dharma. He did that a lot. And he also you know, because he didn't set up these very strict 10 Day retreats. Some people would be disappointed if he didn't show up at the retreat, like maybe to give a Dhamma talk or maybe to give instructions one day or whatever it was. And he, he felt that they could do what they needed to do. And he would I remember he assigned some of the teaching to Joseph, who he hadn't gone there to become a teacher, you know, but that's what would happen. He people walked away. Feeling Yes, I can. My ninja says that's really big. And it wasn't about following Very strict line was more about. He had such enormous faith in the Dharma that he trusted. The Dhamma would do its work on the student. And it would be okay. That's how, that's how deeply confident he was, and how much he trusted students. Now, that's not to say he didn't correct them when necessary. He did. He was very forthright, you know, if you if you were doing X, and he didn't think that was helpful, he would let you know. But he had tremendous trust and confidence. And I think that the teachers, the people who became teachers, the students who became teachers know, they felt his loving kindness, they felt his confidence and trust and and, and they felt his that he didn't have a need to be authoritarian with them. And I think that was big, because Westerners, especially at that time, were so disgusted with the authorities. Right. Right. And it was really big Helman engergy. Taught and how he related to the students. The other thing is, he didn't put a barrier between himself and his students. He piled around with them. He, he was in the bizarre with them, he was having Chai with them. Not all teachers would do that. But that was, as an honor Garcha, he could do that. And many people said to me, I learned more from hanging out with him than in the meditation hall. Because he was a walking embodiment of the Dhamma. You know, in the book, each chapter refers to a particular quality that one needs to cultivate on the path of Dharma toward awakening. And the anecdotes I share are how people perceive that quality in my energy, whether they're in the bazaar, or at a flea market, in the US or at a train station, they just observed all these different qualities, whether it was loving kindness, or patience, or, well, mindfulness was always there, or with compassion, or his resoluteness or the Tanna, so they learned a lot just from hanging around with him. And most teachers didn't hang around with students, they they held a higher position. And he, he stayed. He didn't sit up on a Dyess, the day is dies, whatever he he taught them by living his life in front of them, which is very different from just sitting up front and giving instructions or giving a Dhamma talk. He showed them what it's like to be an embodiment of dharma in daily life. And that was huge for Western students, that kind of integration.
Host 1:34:08
Yeah, it's very powerful. And it really stands out describing the softness in which he approached the practice because I think of different teachers and different meditation teachers today as well as how they've presented the Dhamma and writing are in talks and it the emphasis so much is on the difficulty of the path and the earnestness and the effort and the lack of slacking, you know, not letting awareness go for even a moment. And this can this can be very inspiring language to hear almost like, you know, a coach in a game who's, you know, telling you to the key critical play that you need to be at your best and kind of kick kicked into gear. But it is a long path. It's a marathon and not a sprint. And there are Other ways it needs to be approached, then that then the full line intensity of, of have a momentary reminder from moment to moment of yet again how difficult and strenuous This is and bringing that to bear. And it's and certainly that's not to criticize that that's there are times there are people that are practices where that is a that is exactly what the student needs to hear. But it's also it's very comforting to hear that that's not the only way and to hear a teacher that has that he's able to guide students to towards the same direction but using different language and appealing to different kinds of personalities and characteristics. And this brings us to looking at this relationship he had with his Western students in India. And then as the years start to pass this changes from this kind of informal, informal amorphous spiritual community that's just forming spontaneously in India to this attempt through the kalank organization as well as through others that are going their own way to want to find ways to bring to to create a format that can then be exported and brought to the west to their own friends and family and community. And the going commission takes off in its own way, but then Moon Indra students, though some of his students are actually become leaders in the blank organization. So they trend more towards those organizations organizational structures, whereas others start to as such as Joseph and perhaps others you want to bring up start to chart their own teaching careers independently, which eventually takes the shape of buying the land that becomes IMS Insight Meditation Society, and that becomes a more permanent place, this is a movement of from east to west and also the ground level of the mindfulness movement that we all know now, that is a that is, has become integrated into so many parts of our western life, but this is really the beginning of this process and Moon Indra is involved in it in many ways directly and indirectly. So, as this moves starts to happen, as the shift starts to take place, what can you tell us about what how many Indra was involved and how how he was involved directly, as well as how those that he was empowered in these lessons to and that he was helping in, perhaps in this indirect fashion, how they then took up this cause as well, which would, which would have his imprint on it in some way.
Mirka Knaster 1:37:47
Now, I'd like to go back to when when Indra Ji was leaving Burma. I think I mentioned hundreds of people came to the dock to see him off. The fact that he was bringing the Dharma back to India, there was a belief in Burma that this, this would happen that the that he would that much energy was helping to fulfill a prophecy that 2500 years after the party Nibbana what ism would spread the Dymo respect. So when entered, he goes back to India. And then he winds up meeting all these Westerners. And then all these Westerners spread the Dhamma through Australia, New Zealand, South America, North America, Europe. So he was he was part of something. How could he have even known when he was a little boy in that Bengali village village that all of this would come to pass? But he, he was part of that. And by teaching by teaching the Westerners and they're being so inspired, that they went back to the west and started teaching. And you know, Sharon and Joseph and Jack Kornfield and Jacqueline Mundo, Jacqueline Swartz, Mendell started IMS. Later Spirit Rock was developed, and other other centers from their ministry He came to the west whenever his students invited him. He came and taught wherever he was invited, whether it was in Europe or the United States or Australia. He would come and teach. He was so happy to do that. And then his students just kept spreading the Dharma. And, of course, things changed. Mindfulness was taken up as a health practice, and then there were all these, you know how the materialization, or commercialization of Buddhism took hold in the in the West. But my energy was true to his students. He kept teaching, he kept traveling to teach. And then in India in Bodhgaya, one of his students, two or two of them decided, What if we started a Buddhist studies program. And he said, If you do that, I will support you. And so they created a Buddhist studies program abroad, through Antioch. And every year, students would come, they had a teacher for Tibetan Buddhism, they had a teacher for Zen Buddhism, and they had an energy for Tera Vaada Buddhism. And unless he was ill, or unless he was out of the country, he faithfully showed up every year to teach the students in the program. And I interviewed a lot of those students, he made a huge difference in their lives. even long after they had spent time with him, and after he died. In moments of in difficult moments, they would remember something about him something he said, or his smile. He was a joyful person. So he smiled a lot. And it just kept spreading. That's I mean, he spread his spread the Dharma in the West, himself and through his students. And then he kept spreading the Dharma in Bodhgaya, through the Western College students who came for the program.
Host 1:42:30
Right, yeah, I've definitely spoken to many people who've enjoyed that program as well. And then also just looking at this informal way that he was teaching in India, this took on a more formal component. In some ways, formal in some ways, it branched into commercial, as you mentioned, in some ways, the lines became a bit blurred, that would be a topic for a much longer conversation. But in that formal development, it rather than just having this informal association of spiritual talks and dharma practice, it became something a bit more structured. And, of course, the blanket tradition did its own thing. But IMS was the main platform for a lot of the early practice in the West, located in Massachusetts. So in what ways was he encouraging the development of IMS and the teachers such as Sharon Salzberg, Jack Kornfield, Joseph Goldstein, among others that were starting to take part in teach there as well as the other teachers they were bringing in?
Mirka Knaster 1:43:33
Yes. And as I said, he he came and taught wherever he was invited, as I remember. Well, I'll go back to what you were asking. He participated to the extent that he was asked to and the development that you talked about the structural development, that was really necessary, because we don't have both guy in the United States. No, that was a time in a place where a few people could gather around him. But in the US, how are you going to? How are you going to share the teachings when you have so many people and to do it one on one the way when Entergy did, we'd be very challenging, very limiting. So setting up the retreats getting a building, you know, was all experimental. Nobody knew that this was going to happen. But it was experimental and things changed over the years and other teachers came through. But he was instrumental in the beginning for sure. So with Deepa ma And I think lending his support was huge. He encouraged people. As I said before he trusted and had confidence in people. And Deepa ma did that too. And you may know the story about Sharon's getting ready to leave India and diva Martel's or you will be a teacher, you will teach. She said, No, I won't. And if mama says, Yes, you will, you will see, no, I won't. And, you know, Sharon was very young at the time, she couldn't imagine being a Dharma teacher, but look at her now. So I think the confidence that when introduced showed in these young Westerners made a huge impact. And look at the results 1000s and 1000s of people have gone come through IMS and spear rock and other places. I've watched over the decades how the practice has widened, you know, penetrated communities that were not on board initially. I was on retreat recently. And there were all these young people there. And I was so happy I was thinking, Oh, this is great. All these young people are interested in the Dhamma. And I thought back, oh, that used to be me, the younger generation on the retreat? No, no, no, I'm the, you know, older generation on their tree. The fact that, you know, all of these decades later, that there's so much interest, then it's so hard sometimes to get in on a retreat, I'm often in the lottery, and I don't get in or I'm on a waitlist and and then sometimes I get off the waitlist. And often I don't, I think wow, this has been this has been burgeoning for all these decades, all because Westerners showed up. And not only wanting to do I mean, there were monks in Thailand were very influential. But all these people showed up, and manager, he was there to talk with them to welcome them to teach them. And again, he was not the only one. But he was there so early on 1966. So he didn't have anything to do with the buildings. He didn't have anything to do with, you know, how things have evolved. But he always showed up when asked and people got they got a flavor of living a life of Dhamma by just being around and engergy. You know, there was a funny story in the book about a couple of people taking him to a flea market in Massachusetts. When Entergy had a penchant for shopping, he was It was hilarious, actually. And he went over to one table in the flea market. And there was this little piano, piano toy. And he asked the man behind, you know how much he wanted? And he said, $10 And he said, Oh, no. Okay, will you take five? He said no way. And when he says, Oh, this is this is for the children of India. You know, he would just go on and on like that whenever he was trying to get a deal. And this man whom you would not, you would not have expected to respond to an NG G. But he started he went under the table, we started rummaging around. And he brought up some batteries and piano and he said, Okay, $5 and I'll throw in the batteries. I'm an energy right then and there, started chanting metta to this man. And the man was so taken aback. And he said, Oh, yes, we need this. We really need this. And again, this was not a Dharma student. This was not a meditator. He was actually kind of a rough guy. And then A woman at the next table there in the flea market, she turns around and she sees when engergy standing there and his white robes and his white cap. And he said, she says, Oh, for God's sakes, Gandhi is here saying that they were having. And so these two students were watching my energy. Yes, he was bargaining. That's what you do in India, you never just accept the first price. And he thanked the man by giving him a blessing of metta. And so, you know, just hanging out with him, going to a place as ordinary as a flea market, you get to learn a lot.
Host 1:50:45
That's a great story. And I'm really glad that you shared that moment of going to the retreat, and seeing all these young faces, and it just kind of brings it full circle. And that was, I want to integrate that anecdote into a moment to reflect on an examine his legacy, because it strikes me that is you're there at that retreat. Many people young or of an older age who go to their first retreat, or even their 10th Retreat, don't necessarily know where this came from, you know, how the sausage got made, how the decisions came down to structure teachings and physical buildings and the particular way that they were, they just, they show up, they learn, they practice, and they're grateful and go home. And, you know, as you're here at this retreat, you're because of your awareness, your background and experience and research, you're aware that to some degree, the experience you're having there, I don't want to say that it wouldn't have happened without going under or that he was the key driver in manifesting and making this possible, because, of course, it's much more complicated than that. But I think it would be fair to say that the particular ways that this experience was being shaped things would be different if he wasn't around. It's hard to exactly imagine how because that's a thought experiment, a parallel reality, but, but certainly, there's this kind of unseen influence that he has, and I say unseen, because, you know, I think if you're in the Glinka tradition, you learn very early on the gratitude and the awareness you have of Glencoe and the lineage and how it came to you, or if you take a retreat with Joseph Goldstein or any of the others, you're grateful to that teacher, and maybe you hear something about their experiences of how they got there, or even a teacher that Joseph has trained, you might be might learn under them, but then be aware that that, that these other kind of bigger name teachers are there looming in the background in terms of what they've given, but I'm not sure to what extent Munna Indra is really known today. I think that people who No, no, I mean, that's for sure, like people who, who have done their reading or have had their experiences, no. But there have been many meditators I've talked to that are pretty knowledgeable and have been around for a long time, and don't have never heard of him before, or maybe have some vague understanding. I would put myself in that category A few years ago. You know, he was always this name that was kind of looming that I never quite understood. That was like, Wait, well, wait, he, you know, he was friends with Glencoe. But he was a Mahasi. practitioner, and he taught Joseph Goldstein. So he's a teacher and just kind of like, Huh, that's okay. You know, and just not quite knowing where to place him. And so and so as you think about his legacy today, not just in a personal way, in terms of how he's impacted you, or how he's impacted some of these other others, these other names we've talked about, but just when we think about it from a legacy standpoint, this then I guess, I'm asking you this thought experiment, which is, you know, is, is hypothetical, so we can't really know for sure, with that caveat. But as you think about the way that these meditation teachers and traditions have grown up, the way they've taken shape, and the courses and structures they're now delivering, and you think of where Moon Indra fits in to this dynamic in ways that many people that are now benefiting would really not really not know and really not understand. Hopefully, many of them are listening right now. Let's assume they are. And if you were speaking to some of those individuals, how who have a practice and have benefited from this Dhamma experience, but don't really know this background or history, how would you explain to them where mudra fits into this whole thing?
Mirka Knaster 1:54:34
Well, first, I want to backtrack to how this came to be, you know, writing this book, and that was, I was on a forest refuge retreat, you know, forest refuge at IMS. And one day I was sitting in the meditation hall. And I thought somebody said out loud. Who is honoring when energies legacy and the Dhamma? And I, I really I thought I had heard someone say that. But nobody had it was a silent meditation hall. And I thought, Where is that coming from? And so after the retreat ended, I went to talk with Joseph and said, Who is honoring my energies legacy? Is anybody working on a book? And he said, not that I know of. So I went home. And I called my dharma sister Kamala masters. Which is, by the way, how I first met my energy because he used to come and stay at her house on Maui and I lived on Maui at the time. I called her and I said, Kamala, is anybody writing a book about money, energy? And she said, No, but there's a guy who I think maybe did some interviews with him. And she told me about Robert Pryor who started the Antioch. But his studies, education, education abroad program. So anyway, long story short, Robert, and I started collaborating. And I tell you this, because it was astonishing to me that nobody had written a book about him. He was a very important figure in the Dharma coming to the west. And I thought, okay, so I started working on it. But I also asked myself, I wasn't one of his early students in Bodhgaya, I hadn't started practicing yet. As I said, going, he was my first teacher in India. And I just like, I wondered why nobody else had written a book. And then I thought, Well, okay, I'll start working on it. And I got help from Robert, than from Kamala. And I interviewed probably around 200 people around the world, and we didn't have FaceTime or Zoom then. So I had to call people. And I thought, you know, he presented a particular way of walking the path. And he influenced so many people who are teaching us also, how to walk the path of Dhamma. And it surprised me that there was nothing, no, no book, no, no, anything really. There was maybe one article. And I hope that more and more people will learn about money, druggies, inspiration and influence and impact on the Dharma that we have today in the West, through this book, and to get a sense of as Melinda G put it, living the life fully. And that means not just sitting on retreat, not just sitting in a meditation hall. It's about living every moment of our lives. He was a great example of living your daily life, mindfully with loving kindness, with compassion, etc. So I believe his legacy is critical or crucial. In in terms of the Dhamma coming to the west, I have no idea what would have happened. Had Joseph and Sharon and so many other people not met him. I mean, he opened the door for so many people. He opened the door and said, Come on in. Here it tastes This tastes the dumb even when people were not interested, there was one fellow who went to see my energy as a favor to somebody else, because he was sick and couldn't come and teach the Antioch program that year. And my energy said, Oh, okay, why don't you come and stay? Stay with me and I will I will teach you. And the guy was not interested. He wanted to go sightseeing in Calcutta. And he said, Okay, well, you know, just come for the weekend. No, and he said, Well, okay, just stay overnight. No Oh. And the guy kept refusing even though my energy as sick as he was wanted to share the Dharma. But that point, when energy said, Okay, sit down, I will feed you. And he carefully fed this young man. And he was the the young man was just so moved, that he, he tried to share the Dharma with him by teaching in, you know, in a certain way, maybe how to how to meditate. But he, the only way he could teach him was by being by giving done by showing generosity. And that had a huge impact on this man who did ventually go on to practice with something so simple. Just something so simple. And I think that's a big part of his legacy. That it's not simply about sitting with your legs crossed, in a silent meditation hall. It's about how you live every moment, and how you relate to other people, and how you relate to yourself. He was very big on teaching Westerners, that they also had to express self love. He found just like the Dalai Lama did, that Westerners had so much self negativity, he didn't understand it himself. So by being so loving, he was just trying to reflect back to them. Yes, you are lovable. And I think his approach, his kindness, his softness, and his softness was not to be equated with, you know, like mealy mouthed or effective, was diligent. He was energetic, he was enthusiastic. He was on the mark. But he wasn't punitive. And I think that his soft, embracing way, really endears so many Westerners to him, but not just Westerners. He had Indian students, too, he had Burmese students. And we didn't talk about them at all. But he did. And they and he had a huge impact on them. That's what I think his legacy is.
Host 2:02:41
And just ask one final question here. And looking at bringing his background into contemporary times, you referenced how the Dom has taken shape in the West as it's gone in many different directions setting setting up formal entities where before things were casual, and was that necessity that as you mentioned, Bodhgaya was a very specific time and place of occurrence that needed to expand beyond that. Also, the commercial forums, which the MC mindfulness, which is again, a whole other discussion of how that progression and movement has carried on, but sticking specifically with Mahindra himself. If he were to come and look at the shape of practice today, which of course is not monolithic, it's not one thing, it's taken so many different forms, you know, from corporate and military settings of people practicing just a little bit of Autobahn ought to be able to balance their mind to, on one extreme to perhaps the other extreme, you know, foreigners who have become lifelong committed monastics and in Asian settings and have become teachers in their own right and spent years and years studying up to that point, and then everything in between all those different shapes and varieties. It's taken as, as expanded as is probably not surprising for any kind of ideological or, or, or technical based practice as it moves, that it just starts to take on different forms and needs of that society and blend with local cultures and understanding. And so I understand it's not one thing, there's so many forms that this has taken on, but he passed away before this movement really took off in the way it did, there was a growing and dedicated interest and curiosity from a small segment. But even in the past number of decades, past number of years, you know, meditation has gone from being kind of a fringe weird new age thing to something that is pretty normal and common, like any, you know, maybe someone being vegetarian, you know, it was weird back in the day, and now it's just kind of like, oh, you're coming over for dinner like anything you can eat. It's just kind of something normal that you, you you accommodate people in the society. So, you know, as this movement and shape has taken on so many different characteristics if Moon Indra were to look at the landscape today, do you have any thoughts on how he might feel about it?
Mirka Knaster 2:05:15
Yes, I do. Actually. He was such a tolerant person, non judgmental, that I couldn't imagine he would be anything but delighted to see how much the Dhamma has spread. But I'll give you an example of his. Let's see. He was aware of the fact that the Dharma how to adapt, dharma practice how to adapt to different cultures. One time, he was with a teacher who had learned from Goenka G, and she was chastised for incorporating, walking meditation. And she went to talk with him about it. And he said, Yes, you are dealing with a different population. You're dealing with people in a different culture. Yes, it is important to adapt. So he didn't say to her. He didn't say to her, Oh, you shouldn't do that you should just follow strictly what Goenka G told you to do. He saw that she was trying to make the practice as openly possible to others. And saw the need for having the walking meditation as well. And I think he would probably say something like that today. Looking at how many retreats are fairly lenient. He knew what he had to do. He was very diligent. But he doesn't he didn't criticize people who didn't. Who didn't apply the same determination and energy that he did an effort. You know, he just saw that everyone had to do it in his or her own way. And at a certain point, things would kick in where they wouldn't. And so I I imagine if he saw how many people were engaged in learning mindfulness, it would make him happy. He wouldn't judge. I don't think he would judge. He wasn't he wasn't ever a judgmental person about anything. I mean, think about it. So these hippies are showing up in Bodhgaya. Wearing whatever. And oh, and they were in the drugs they were doing. condemn any of them. He just said, Oh, tell me, tell me about your experience. Ni would have them detail, my noodley their experience, whether they were on LSD or whatever, were a movie that they saw. Even though these were not things he did. He didn't condemn them. And he knew in their own time, they would do what they needed to do in the Dhamma. At least that's how I interpret having spent time with him, and having learned about him through so many people.
Host 2:09:09
Thank you for that reflection. And thank you for taking all the time today to talk about your work and your experience and time with manildra. For those people who've never heard of him, I hope that this brings some level of appreciation for those like me several years ago that it was a floating name that didn't quite know where it fit. Hopefully this is able to center that and to encourage people to go and read your full book living this life fully stories and teachings of going to Indra, which will be linked to the show notes and for those that knew him and spent time around him. Hopefully this brings back the memory and give some more to share and to remind about who he was and what he did. So thank you so much for taking the time to join and, and share all these wonderful stories.
Mirka Knaster 2:09:57
And thank you for the opportunity Joah I just want to point out that everything I've said is just from me. It's not a categorical knowledge about my ninja. I learned so much about him. I learned more about him through all these people than from the little time that I spent with him and I am grateful to all the people who helped me on this project. And thank you again for the opportunity to tell some stories about when engergy.
Host 2:10:54
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