Transcript: Episode #281: Running Up That Hill
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:15
I'd like to welcome everyone tuning into this episode. Many of you now listening likely have a measure of personal freedom and liberty in your own lives, freedoms that the speaker you're about to hear from no longer enjoys. I do not say this to make anyone feel guilty, but to offer a reminder that we are very fortunate to have a degree of agency and safety in our lives that the upcoming guests and everyone else in Myanmar these days can only dream of. So after you hear their story, please consider how you may use your freedom to support or advocate on behalf of the Burmese people any action, no matter how small counts now let's hear what they have to Say. You
On this episode of Inside Myanmar podcast, we're speaking to La tar. She was born in a very remote village in Myanmar, but close to the Thai border, and we're going to learn about her journey, her life in that village, and then her journey out of it and the work that she's doing now, which I think listeners will find just as fascinating and relevant as I did when I learned about it. So I'm really delighted to be able to bring this voice to our wider international audience to learn more deeply about the rural village life and how this reflects the wider issues happening in Myanmar. So Lartar, thank you for taking the time to sit down with us.
Lartar 2:46
Yeah, so I thank you for inviting me to speak to the radio. I was born in 1983 it's in Gauguin Township. It's in Burma. It's as long as I remember myself. I only remember we run away every time. Yes, yeah, I think I remember myself. I was about three years old. I remember only a few, a few things where it's really hard, which is, you don't forget, you know, like it's, it's, I mean, my mom told me that they have been running so many places before, like when I was like was born and they move around, but that's it's not in my memory, but the first time I remember I was about three years old, one time we Were running, I think it was May, it's really hot, and then my mom, like, she will deliver her baby for any any day she was pregnant, really big and and it's like 40 degree heat. And I was three, I was really sick. And then I had a chicken, chicken pot at that time where you have a child, and then I had very high fever. We run one place to another place. And then my dad wasn't with us. It's only my mom and me, my sister and my cousin, and then my older brother, my mom cannot carry him anymore, and then she has to send him to the monastery. So the monk to save him, to shave the hair, and then to become the monk. Because the military really like trying to catch the whole family. Whenever they see they catch any of us, they will kill us all, like that, you know, like that's all I remember. And then we will run very far from the village in one of the farm that lady know my mom, and she was saving our life like she said, Come on high, cut my hair, and she threw us all in the bunker. And then maybe 15 minutes later, military was so fast, that's why they trained for right? And then they arrived, and. Time we were so hungry, and then I remember one time they ate all my my snack. This, you know, when you child who you only care about your snack, and then they ate all my snack, and then I was really angry, and then I cried, and then they took away my snack, and then inside the bunker. And then they, I remember, they pointed the gun to us. And I remember the gun was like, mortar, you know, the ball like it's called mortar, right, that one so. And then we were so scared, like, luckily that they are not shooting and we they were just threatening, questioning my mom a lot, and they are looking for, searching for my dad. So the lady who saved us, she she's very good, like, like, talking and saving to us, and then I don't know what she's talking and then the military took away her pig, her chicken, her her goat, and they took away a lot of her animal just because of us. And, yeah, so that's the first time I remember since, you know, like the childhood, and then afterwards, just run every, every, every day, every night. Sometimes we run in one day, three villages, and then my mom realized that living in the village is just because of us, and then we will affect other people. So we move away, so far away from other people, we live in the jungle, like on the mountain where there's no people around and very far, then just us, like childhood and and then we my mom. I remember that we had to cook at night, and then we we cannot cook daytime when they see the smoke, and then they follow us, and then we are just eating the rice that we are cooking. Sorry, yeah, for the child, I will say that pretty much run around all the time until I was like, seven years old. Because my childhood, I wanted to go to school. By then, I we couldn't access any any school so far, and then the only education you can accept. It's like monastery School, where you can learn to read and write. There is no higher grade, and so on. And I saw my brother and my sister, they went to monastery. And then I follow that. I was thinking, Oh, that's nice to read and write and then starting to and then we are just running around. And then my older brother, my sister, also didn't get to go to school properly. When I was seven years old, my parents called us. That was I remember, pretty clear, because I was seven years old already. So this is how our family life reality. So we have to decide what you guys want. It's pretty, pretty hard at seven years old kid. Need to make a decision for for your own life. And my mom say that to ask my brother and my sister do if you want to go to school or you want to work, farming or running, to stay with the family. If you stay with the family, this is how you need to move around and get ready. You can never have things stable. You always need to move around. And then my mom asked me if I want to to go for me and to go to school. I said, I want to go to school. And then they sent me to another village, very far like have to walk one day on the mountain, up and down, crossing river one to another. So went to the village, and then I stay there in the dormitory with other family member, which is a school also under the current village, but it's also run by the under KNU control area. So it's also many soldiers around there. So the area is pretty much like protected by the the current, current group. So we are very familiar with the soldier and the current soldier. I mean, like they come and they because people, people are. Are only educated. Is from there. So the village, I don't, don't, they are not educated. So most of our teacher are the the current soldier. Whenever they have part time, they come and teach. So we don't have a, you know, like teacher who will take care of us full time, like that. So I stay there only one year. Is pretty tough life with our parents and living there, and sometimes the dormitory, we don't have no one support us. We don't have enough food and so on, even though we are like five six people and we couldn't afford and my parents are also cannot visit me because they are very far away, and with the river not accessible for rainy season, so it's it's very hard. And then in terms of food supply, and I have to move to stay with another family, then I when I can get enough food, and then I continue to the school. I stay there only one year, and then I go back to the village the next year, and then I attend the school inside the village. It happened again at night, time at 2am I remember, and then the military came surrounded our house, and then I remember they were kicking me with a boot. And then they were shouting, like, get out, get out. Go down. And then they kick us out. They want to search, looking for my dad. And then, and we were living in the farm, I we were going down. We sit on the ground. My mother has my little sister, and then when my younger brother and me and my sister, my older brother, he's he's somewhere, he's not with us, because he's a little bit older already, it's not safe for for him to stay, because whenever they see young men, they want to to take for porta, you know, to carry stuff. And we my mom sent him to stay with somewhere else. And then I saw that they were pointing my mom with a pistol. Here, it's a silver pistol to her head, yeah, to my mom head. And one here, one here.
Host 12:20
And this is your point to your stomach, yeah.
Lartar 12:24
And, and also my grandma at that time, she stay alive, and she sit next to my mom, and then the question is so many to my mom and so on. And then my mom just said that my at that time, my father wasn't a soldier, he was just for the doing business, carrying fruit one place to another.
Host 12:45
So why were they looking for him? You mentioned that you're running, because everywhere you're running, they're looking for your father.
Lartar 12:50
My dad. My dad was a KNU soldier at that time. He was the commander in there in the cocaine Township. He wasn't a main person under the Kyaw, ba, he was a battalion commander or something like that. I never asked him, so somehow he was quite well known, and then the military searching for him. And also we have an informer, you know, like people who don't like my dad, you know, they inform so that's another reason. So the next morning, actually not next morning after the military left. A few hours later, we pack, move again, we run away. We left everything behind. You know, we were having growing, farming, and left everything just go to another place, just just like that, you know, moving one place to another. So I never finished the school, basically, you know, like just running. I have been and not able to finish with the school, like beginning of the year and the end of the year is basically just constantly running, running. And then, then I was about 12 years old, I decided I need to do something serious, like not coming back very and I close my eyes and I just leave and and not knowing what's happening with my family if I want to continue to go to school, and then I went to the a very, I would say, in Korean state, in my area of quite big city, a quick, big village, I would say, town is called J Dong. I went there, and then I stayed with the commander of the is called kn do, and I stay with the family, but not is, again, another soldier family, and we stay there, but we don't need to move around very much, because there is another military control area under the. And you. So we were safe there many years. And then I went to school there, and I moved just, I don't need to run from the military anymore when I was 1212, to 14. So in the 1996 we were like the whole the military took over the whole border area. So like a lot of villages, oppressed from the one village another to the border and everyone fleeing, which is not, we don't know what's happening. We only hear later. And then, at that time, I was 14 years old, and 1996 and then I remember everything. And I was also study to another village. And then my my my parents, we run away again at the border. We were hiding at the border area. We when we go to Thai side, when Thai people, Thai Suu, just saw us, they kick us out. Now we run back to Myanmar side. When the military come nearby us, we run that side. So basically running back for back for like three months in the jungle, until you and ACR reach us out and and then they move us in the refugee camp, yeah, so in the refugee camp, I wasn't know, I didn't know that where my parents are, where my family, because I ran with another family. So in the camp we after three, four months, I was walking in the local market, I hear some voice, and then I found them at the market, and then we really reunion at the refugee camp. So I finished my high school there in the refugee camp, the school run by the current education department, which is many NGO involved, like SOA and and many other international NGO who focus on the education. So they are working with the current education department. So the school run by the current and so I graduated the high school there, then after work, not knowing where to go. But then luckily that I have opportunity to join the another English Program, which is very rare. They only choose, like the whole camp, only three people able to go. So I was very lucky, and then my my mom didn't let me go because she thought that I'm girl, I'm teenager, you know, like in my our culture is a lot very common that a young woman who you go around alone, they were afraid, you know, like you get raped or whatever. So I didn't think about that part, and I only think about how I'm gonna move on my future, that I was already 16 years old, and then I ran away home because I really want to, I don't want to give up. It's already a lot for me, you know, like going to school, I have to sacrifice a lot. So I run away home for three years, not coming back because I went to English program and I got internship in myself. So I stayed there for three years until I go back and reach my family. It was very tough this the past three years is I just live whatever I find, because I'm already 16 years old, so I know where to get things around and to take care of myself. And after I finished the program, I want to mess up for internship, I got an interview, and they took me because they are looking for people, a person who can speak five languages. So I'm not smart in the school, but in terms of the language, I'm pretty much useful than many other people. So I speak and read and write five language so in the border area, at that time, I was working for the current history and culture Preservation Society. They are looking for a person who can read and write, can translate five languages, like mostly can be Pokhara, Burmese, Thai English. So this kind of languages is very common at that time. I'm not expert, but I get to learn more. And I also don't speak that much English at that time, only small introduction and like that in. Hmm, and yeah, I was volunteer and doing intern and moved all my life like teenager. It was running quite okay. It's not very smooth, but okay. And then I realized that I need to to understand more. I need to understand more, and then I need to do more. At that time, I was already about 1819, years old, I need to learn more, to do more. So I switch to migraine, because in myself, there's so much to learn. You know, it's in the body area. It's not just like a political people run from the conflict, people also facing with the economy zone. People get starving. There's a lot of going on there. I want to understand more, so I switch myself to get to understand more in migrant situation, not just refugee so I become a two years teachers in one of the current school in method, and I was teaching there, and I really like the job. And then in 2007 I got offer a job from NGO. They're very lucky. I was living illegal. I don't have any document at that time, I don't even know. A human need the ID card. I didn't know, yeah, and when the police asked me the ID card, I said, I don't have one. What ID card? Yeah, at that time I had, they asked me a driving license. I said, I don't know, but, but are you asking? I don't have one. So then I whenever I get that kind of question, and then I ask more, what to what, what I need to get, you know, like. And then in 2008 that was the first time when I went back and get my ID and get my passport and get everything down. Was it not very easy? Because in my village, nobody have ID, no one, no record, no record. Nobody care about ID.
Host 22:15
So there's no birth certificates, no home ownership, no school registration, no there's no schools. Reference, nothing.
Lartar 22:22
Yeah, there is a school, but it's not under the Myanmar government. It's under the current, current education department, but no documentation. No, we have only the current are very easy. You know, like everyone know each other, if the her village recognize you, that mean that you belong to this, to this place, and things like that. So you only need to get, you don't even need a birth certificate. You only go there and the heavily proved that, yeah, this person is born here. They just need a piece of paper. It's, it's quite easy at that time, but when to get an ID card, it's very difficult for me, because in the village, people are questioning the military, the officer. I question you, why you want to have ID card? Because nobody have ID card at that time, I was a 2002 still a lot of fighting going on at the border. The military authorities was curious, because our area is a black area I see so they don't want to see people who are educated, you know what I mean, like they don't they are so scared, like people will come against them. So I can never say that I have graduate high school, that I only can tell that I'm a graduate primary school like that. So everybody pretty much found me there, and no one will smile. Has a white teeth. You know what I mean in the village. So people have to live like, really a hair tri style. I have not brushed my teeth for eight to 10 days before I went to the government office to get my ID, and they are checking my hand if my hand has because everyone found me, you can touch their hand has a lot of damage. Yeah, I have to work nine to 10 day. Also get a lot of blister on my hand before I get the idea.
Host 24:30
So with your dirty teeth and your bruised hands, you wanted to show that you were an uneducated farm hand. Yes, that's disgusting.
Lartar 24:38
Yes, it was. It was a very, very long story. And then my parents also don't have a house registration and don't have anything record they don't understand, actually. So when, you know, I move around a lot. When I was a childhood, I had a lot of school and lot of teachers, but I never finished. Is my year. But one family, they really love me. They have. They always wanted me to be their kid, you know, like, and then I went back. He's actually the teacher, which is the village really like recognizing he's a senior teacher. So I went back there if he can help me to get the ID card, and then he allowed me to use his house registration. And then I I got my ID card through his house registration. Not my family. Until now, I'm my I'm not related with my family. Yeah, it's better. Yeah, it's better, because they don't know what I'm doing and what I'm related. Sometimes I do think good, or sometimes, you know, like, depend on what people see you, and I don't want them to involve what because of me. So I think it's better. And then I also completely split up from my my official family as well. I don't want them to have problems because of me, but I also don't, don't do anything like illegal when I make people upset, or I'm just working on the supporting people. And, yeah, that turned off slowly.
Host 26:26
It's quite a story. It's quite a story. I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm holding some of the things you said and reflecting on that experience. I guess the first thing you know, you started this interview off by saying, ever since I can remember, I've been running. I've been running all my life and, and that's, um, that's so devastating and, and yet, it's also, you're not alone that I've, I've spoken to so many ethnics, and particularly Karen, that their earliest memories are, are running from the ferocity and the tyranny of of the the might and the terror of the Burmese military.
Lartar 27:01
Um, you know, like my childhood is pretty tough and running and surviving, and it's at the same time searching for education. Also it's, it's pretty step up for the life, and sometimes I have to walk, like, two hours to go to school. Some of the year just alone forest me at a knife, and then walking to the forest. So going to school, it's, it's in between, like that. It's just, you know, like in the the year from 1990 when I was three years, until 14 years, there was a lot going on there, so I move around a lot senior military for me, is not, is Not. Is scary, but I'm not really scared. I only scale where the bullet is, you know, like the mortar or the rocket falling and stuff like that. Because I grew up in a military area, so I'm very familiar with weapons. So I also, like, we actually at the school just to be surviving. We also get trained to be a army. We at the school to current. Can you training the young people who, who you can prevent yourself? These are not they ask the kid, if anyone who interested to join. They are not forcing right? They are just asking, like, anyone who want to join the military training, and anyone can join. It's not about age, yeah. And what I remember, I was about 12 at that time, yeah, I'm 16, a little bit taller than me. The gun at that time, I remember, yeah, I got to use M, 16 at 8k. Yeah, I learned pretty good that, that the weapon, those two, yeah, I, I mean, my dad, he played, he bring the weapon in the house. There's always guns. So we are very familiar playing. My dad even teach her how to to break out, how to put things together when, when you play, you take all the bullet and then things like that, when we were already in a little child before that training. So I already get to learn the gun. But in the military, we get to learn more stuff, like, when you have a see the the land mine, how you, you technique, you know, like to take it off, like things like that. Land Mine, yeah, we, we get to learn a lot of things, yeah, and
Host 29:53
you use the weapons in combat before, yeah, yeah. Can you share something about that? Yeah?
Lartar 30:01
Um, in the military. When we were in the middle school, we were get trained, and then we also get to to in the end we were graduated, we have to shoot the who can shoot better and stuff like that. So I, I get to use me. I never have to go to war and stuff like that, but I do have family in the family to protect my family. We have gun when, if I see military gun and and attack my family again, I think I will probably use it, you know, but it didn't happen anymore after what? Yeah, but I go to military camp. I use, I use very often, yeah, I like to shoot gun as well.
Host 30:51
Oh, why? What do you like about it?
Lartar 30:53
I like it because it's also become one of my spot. I think because since I see them very often, and it's not to be dangerous, but to be protected, and it's good to prevent yourself to practice when things happen, you have family around and friends that you can protect people around you. I have never shoot anyone, but if I have to, I will do.
Host 31:20
Yeah, I don't know if you're familiar with the second the second amendment in the US Constitution in America, but it's very controversial, because the Second Amendment is the right to bear arms, and this gives citizens the right to have to within certain restrictions in different states at different times. They can. They have a right to bear arms as they like, and this has led to a lot of criticism, because sometimes these weapons are then used in mass shootings or school shootings or and so there's been some pushback in the United States to want to have tighter restrictions, and maybe even, maybe even To prevent, to a greater degree, access to arms. This is a political debate happening in one society, one place, at one time, and Burma is a very different kind of story. But I wonder as I think it'd be very interesting to hear your perspective of the life that you've led and what you've gone through, what are and especially as Burma is going through a revolution and transition now, and we're looking at what post military Burma looks like. What are your thoughts on a post a post trauma Burma, and looking at the right to bear arms? Do you think that's that's a right that every citizen should have in a new Myanmar, in terms of a political perspective, I think, for my, for my believe it is we don't need to have a new Burma.
Lartar 32:37
You know what I mean? Like, we just need to have a new new people, new leader, new idea, new constitution, whether because, this country, we Myanmar, has everything, you know, it's very rich country, and we have all the natural resources. So whatever we have, whatever the military, the government, which generation, no matter what generation, they don't really develop and taking care of the civilian. They only taking care of their own military, their own people. So for me, no matter what government come up, I really want them to be, to see in their own people who are capable inside and what we have and to develop, to live as a, you know, like together, you know, like with there's no war, you know, I don't want to have war anymore in the in the country. It's, it's just like living in the independent, even the reconciliation. I don't know about even reconciliation. Why don't we all live independently in the country? You know, like getting independent and build something together. Firstly, you need people to educate young people. A lot of young people are very educated, but then the old people didn't give the opportunity to lead. So it's still kind of like old manner of the, you know, old generation, and they don't listen a new idea. They only want to go on their own history. History is history. We don't need to follow this history, and we create a better history, you know, like for young people. So I form Myanmar in this day, I think if we continue having the military like this, and then the country will be ruining and never will be peace.
Host 34:55
It will be like this or worse, yeah, and this question of the right to bear arms, do you? Would you like to I. Well, do you think it's important that every that every citizen has the right to be able to arm themselves by a weapon, leave it in their home? Or do you think that that should be prevented?
Lartar 35:09
No, this is not going to be a peace country. So people really, because I think for the Korean people, they really want to do ceasefire already a long time, because as a current and we and they also like seeing the military that military are playing. So if they do according what they they design agreement, and think the civilian I will be happy to work with them. But then they tell other people to do ceasefire, and they are not doing ceasefire. And then they come and, and they come and stay, attack the place and, and, you know, social media is not seeing everything, because they don't. They don't like journalists, you know. They don't have journalists discover all the the true thing, you know. And that's why the current also cannot let their weapon down. So they still have to hold their weapon, even though they do ceasefire. So in terms of every ethnic need to keep their own arms or own weapon, I don't see that for my, my own, my own personally feeling that we need to work to stay together. We don't need we don't need the every, every ethnic don't need to have their own army, you know, like, just build something to be a federal union. Yeah? Federal union.
Host 36:36
Yeah, right. I also want to go back to this, the childhood, this sense of a boogeyman, and through a childhood lens, trying to understand what it was like to have this enemy that was always coming after you, and how to under how to even understand as a child, why do they want to harm us? What did we do? Why? Why are we always running from them? And I think as a child, it's often we don't have a sense of normalcy, whatever, whatever our experiences as children, that's what's normal. And so was that, that sense of running from an enemy who was always trying to harm you? Did that become normal?
Lartar 37:12
It's not. It's it's very good question. So in our culture, in the Thai and when you are a child, you're not allowed to ask questions, so the older people will not we will tell you that it's not your busyness, you know, like you don't need to know everything. So I do make my own decision. That's another reason that I go back by myself, like things can happen. Military could kill me anytime. Because, you know, like in 2002 when I go back and get my ID, my everything, I have never been in the central of Myanmar. I'm already 1819, years old. I also want to understand why I have to run all the time because for me, I don't give up my life easily. You know, like it's not just to go back and get my own identity. I also have other other idea that I want to understand. Why they chase my my family all the time, where other people can stay in the village, and why not? Not us? You know, the parents doesn't explain to you, and you have to find out by yourself. So basically, my my sister and my brother, they never get to know what's why they only run follow the parent. For me, I need to understand. So when I went back and trying to understand the political view, like, and there's, you know, like Korean National Union, and also, like, we have a military. We have, you know, like military want to take over the area and want to take this place and that place, there is no like agreement. They not allowed to take over. So the current is protect current state and things like that. So trying to understand political background a little bit, and I get to understand and also my dad. He he also part of k and u. I don't feel sad. I was proud, actually, because my dad also saved a lot of people life in in the area, and without the current military, and I think our area will be so poor now and we will not have good natural resources in the military. We just say everything already like because we have very, very rich forest and stuff, and then whether the nature area and people can survive, indigenous people could survive just with this forest. Yeah, so I'm trying to understand a lot of things, but I don't feel sad, actually. I I get. Learn a lot afterward, like trying to realize the reality what I have been through. But this is all a lesson learned for me. Yeah.
Host 40:10
Another question with that is, emotionally, how did you come to look at not just the Burma army, but the BA Mar people in general? I I can't imagine myself being targeted, and for so long, my family, my community, every single person I knew that was from my ethnicity being living under that kind of terror and just the the hatred that I would, that I would, I imagine I would have in that scenario, and how difficult it would and I'm I came to Myanmar to practice meditation. So that's been a part of my life when, just in my own personal story, when I meditate, it's the things that the emotions I can't let go of, or the ones that come on strongly, this person wronged me, and you know, this happened to me, and it was unfair, really minor things that I've had to deal with, but still things I hold on to. So I think that if I was in a situation where someone, some group, had caused that immense level of harm, the burning fire of anger that would burn inside me, that inspired that trauma, it would be a very hard thing for me to wrestle with and let go of. So I'm wondering how you've dealt with your emotions and perhaps anger for this persecution.
Lartar 41:27
Not easy. I can tell you I used to hate but miss people a lot. I cannot see them when I see them, I want to staff them. And when I when I remember when I was working for the NGO in myself in the same team, we also have a few Burmese people, and then, and and then I hate, I hate her so much. And then I'm also very competitive at that time, because you were young, and you just don't understand. You cannot control your emotional and then, you know, like she has so much opportunity to study, she go to proper school, she go to university. And then I don't have to get to do this thing. You know, I'm very competitive. And then I really hate her, and I and she don't understand. And, of course, she don't understand. And then she, she always afraid of me. That why I'm always upset, offended her, you know? And then at that time, I was also very young. And then I also told the office that I cannot see this person. Can you just hire her somewhere? And then, because my boss, he understand my background, and then he I said, this is getting really bad and really dangerous, and say, you should hire her. I said, I cannot. And then I said, as soon as I see her, I want to stab her with a knife many times. You know this kind of angle come in many times. But I realized that there's something going wrong with me. I need some to cool down myself. And then, and I told my office team that I need one week off, and then I just go to very far in the forest, like I go hiking. And then I went to temple. I went I spent time alone for one week in the jungle, and then just to clear my mind, and I came back, and then I accepted her, somehow, it's not her fault. And then I try to learn more. I try to understand more about not all, but miss people are bad. So I try to accept more the reality and maybe military are also, you know, like killing and torturing his own their own people. It's not just Karen, and I'm trying to read more. Also, not just Karen, Karen, I also trying to understand other ethnicity. So at that time, I was about 2223 Yeah, just, just trying to control myself, and I start changing at that time.
Host 44:17
Also, yeah, how these days, with post 2021, coup, there's so much focus on the young generation of mental health and mental balance. This is something new in Burmese society, where these things are talked about as openly as they are. But what you're talking about in this incident of recognizing the mental imbalance and taking time off to be able to heal and let go of this murderous rage that was in you did, how did you let this go? Like, was it through meditation or something faith based meditation?
Lartar 44:47
And also, like, I have to speak to, actually, my, my Italian Boss, he's a, he's, he's very good man. Mentor as well. You can talk to him anything. And then I have very good mentor. And then he, he also offer me whatever I feel something I should speak to him. And then I speak to him. I'm I feel like this, like that. I think, I think he also have a counselor. I think that the counselor, maybe he speak to that counselor, how to to talk to me, or things like that, and then he talked to me, and then I find it which is true, because it's not worth it, you know, like this person doesn't know anything. Why do I step her? You know, like, why I hate her, and then why I'm angry to her, just because I'm hating the military doesn't mean that I have to hate other people, you know what I mean. And then she he really cooled me down. But took me a long, many days to every day, even though I'm on the mountain, hiking or meditate, I at least speak to him one hour a day, like it's it's pretty helpful.
Host 46:04
So it sounds like it was a combination between speaking with a friend, therapy, meditation, being alone in nature, and I'm sure, also an inner volition to want to move past this. Nothing happens without that inner will to want to grow. Yes,
Lartar 46:19
you need to have someone who understand situation, who can can balance you things right and wrong. So I don't even know at that time, there's also a counseling as a exist, because we don't have it. So basically, my my people that I'm working with, like, my friend, they are pretty much my mentor, you know, like, because they are a lot older than me, and yeah.
Host 46:48
And in having to overcome this pain and anger that's inside, this is coming from an interaction with a source that we can say is Not just tyrannical, but is bordering on, or is evil. This is, this is an evil that you've confronted in the world. And I think that for many people listening, evil is something that many of us have more experience with in reading about history or certain atrocities that have taken place, picking up the news and seeing something, maybe some depiction in a Movie or Documentary. But I think few of us have really encountered something for a prolonged period, truly evil that has harmed our life and tried to harm our entire existence, put us out of existence in that kind of way. So more looking on a philosophical a theological level of what? How would you describe the manifestation of this evil? If we can use that word in your confrontation with it?
Lartar 47:53
Yeah, I mean, it's not so easy to let it go everything. It's take a lot of time to to realize it because and another things to hold your your your anger, you have to think about your family situation, you know, like, if, when you're talking to the, let's say, your friend who telling you things right and wrong. And you have to realize everything step by step, if things are worth it or not worth it, maybe it's not good. When you you got upset, you make a decision, you know, like you just, you get angry, and it just come down, and then you just maybe take your time. And I, I also do that like until now, you know, like I started from there until now. Whenever I feel something not, not very comfortable, I just say that I need some time like that. And then I try to cool down and then find a solution and start talking to the people who you trust, and then this is pretty much like how to control your anger or your emotional or something like that, right?
Host 49:09
I think we've spoken to a number of analysts, authors, scholars, who have commented, who have looked at the ongoing nature of the military's dominance in Myanmar and looked at the different economic, social, political situations that have led to the military's continued dominance and cancerous growth within Burmese society. But I want to ask you, from a personal point of view, from a subjective point of view, in your perspective, you've seen this evil that the military represents, and it's not just been enacted in one or two incidents, incidences or atrocities, but it's it's been a sustained evil that has lasted over generations across the country, has taken many different forms, has continued decade after decade, generation after generation. Conversation, despite all the changes that happen, the evil still continues, and I'm using that word intentionally, still continues to exist in some form or another. And so I'm not asking you for an academic analysis, as we've spoken to others, but from a, from a from a from from a survivor's point of view, someone who's seen many fall victim to this evil. What, what in your subjective perspective would inform why this, why and how this evil has been able to persist as long as it has.
Lartar 50:33
Yeah, so this is a very long process, and this I just want to start to talk about, I don't know if it's related with your question. In the year of 2014 is my first time moving to Yangon, living in the big city and and also in central of Myanmar, where I have never been living before. I just want to see the people there, how their mentality, you know, like reality, how they understand about the situation. So when I speak about the border situation, people don't listen to me that they didn't accept they didn't accept me. So this is also hurting me so much. Yeah, and they didn't recognize and they were like, this, your own problem. Create problem because they have been brainwashed for decades, and this is how the they have been teaching the kids in the wrong history in the school is not the right history, what they have been learned. And so I'm not 100% supporting the Aung San Suu Kyi, but after things, they take over the country. And he opened the country. And then, you know, a lot of people from state, left people, they went back to they get their own identity, like even my parents, they are over 6070, years old. That's the first time they get by their ID card. Oh, wow, yes. And then they my mom said, I'm nearly died. I don't need ID card. I say, Yes, you still need ID card. Because if you travel with me to ba god, yeah, you fly with me. You will need your ID card, yeah. So then it's make her change her mind. And I think I remember they get their house registration when the year was 2015 or 2016 Yes. And they have to force pretty much everyone to get their own identity they have the first time, the ID card. And anyway, so for me, I realized situation, I have a lot of anger, but I think I control my anger is quite, quite, quite well, and also, like whenever I see a lot of people angry has a different you know, like a lot of people has same anger before, they want to kill. They want to step there, because that's what we have been growing up. We're not allowed to speak Burmese because we hate Burmese and like that. We if we speak Burmese, then people will think that you are, you are trader or like that. So we that's how we grew our childhood. And a lot of people hate Burmese, Burmese, and whenever you hear something like this, like a person like me, I always search him for opportunity when I can learn more and more trying to understand, and then I can talk to those people who want to listen to me, people who don't want to listen to me. This is fine, also some people who like to listen to me. And I already come back and show the example that not many people graduate high school with my situation. So there's already the step, that achievement that I already I graduate high school with the running for 11 school, different school. So they, a lot of people listen to me that how things I have been through, and how I manage with my own emotional it's not so easy, but somehow I have a lot of good people behind me, where they talk to me in the I learn from them, and then I come down like that. So like mental health is, of course, sometimes you have different emotional you get angry, you get upset, you get, you have feeling down, or you're happy like that. I don't know what the evil me, yeah, I have been that's, that's how I think the the worst part that I have been through, like there's a lot of evil in between. I couldn't explain how the evil can be worse. You. Like I would say that I survived many times. Yeah, that's how the evil San to me, but this evil maybe make me strong as well.
Host 55:12
Yeah, right. So you moved to Yangon in 2014 but before that, you were living in a very rural existence, and we've talked a lot about the trauma and the terror and the running, which rightly so, dominated many of your early years. But we also don't want to reduce your life and your community's life to nothing but terror, trauma, victimization. We also want to talk about the culture, the humanity, the color, and especially, I'm thinking of when, when we were speaking, before this interview, you were giving me such amazing, colorful imagery of what village life was like, if we can somehow remove this terror and this persecution. But we've mentioned that if we can somehow put that aside from that conversation and talk about the the experience of of what your village life was like and how far it was from, from what we know as modernity and civilization. So if you could paint a picture of what it would be like or feel like to for one of our listeners to come to that village, what they see and experience and what life was like when you were growing up.
Lartar 56:24
I when I was born that village, I couldn't even say that it's a village. It's more like a farm area, like we don't have a hospital, we don't have a school. The only I remember is we have a small monastery, like we have a few bamboo house.
Host 56:45
So this was a Buddhist village.
Lartar 56:46
yes, Buddhist village, yeah. And most, nearly 100% people there live in their current so only a few houses. And I mean small village, and then you walk of maybe two, three kilometer, and there's another village. We have San village, we have a BA U village, we have a current village, even Korean. We have poker and sit go, Karen, but we don't live very far. It's just like a one small river and the other side, people don't fight. They are just like ba village. We have a vegetarian people. The whole village only eat vegetarian really. I would like that place. Yes, we create a lot of seasoning paste, like tofu and stuff like that. So. And then our San village, and we have Moon village. So as I remember, when you go to the gogore city, that's where Myanmar people are live in a small city, and all the ethnicity are living around there, as long as I remember, very small, one village to another, you have to walk very far because there's the only forest at that time. There's no road, and you can only walk follow where the cow or the animal tray and stuff. And then for rainy season, we travel with it's actually the most flexible travel time was the rainy season, because we can use the boat, can follow the river. That's the most flexible time rainy season, because one village to another village, we have water everywhere, and then we just take a boat across to go to another, another place, yeah, for dry season, we use cow to haunt that called cart. Yeah, bull cart. And we use that to transport, to travel for long distance, yeah. I mean, in these days, different, yeah. I mean, at that time when Myanmar army came, they only walk, and they use porta, using village to carry stuff, right?
Host 59:14
You mentioned all the running that you had to do and and as and that's certainly no way to grow up. It's certainly no way to live. And however, that experience does take you into many different villages and many different communities and give you insights into the way many different people are living. And so what do you remember from that time on the run in terms of the experience you had of seeing many different villages and communities that you otherwise wouldn't have come in contact
Lartar 59:42
with I have, I do have movie a lot. We have so much community. I think our family pretty well know that for running away because, because of my dad, people know us everywhere in there. So. When I grew up, for example, after I have I finished the high school, and then I went back, no one recognized how I look. And then even my auntie, my my uncle, my family member in the village, they don't recognize me. Aung, T I have to say that I'm the daughter of this dad, and then they direct, they they will know because, and also the whole village, they quite well know us. And also we have, we have a lot of family, like, like, wanted to save my mom and my my my family and people. Of course, when you move around low, we don't have food. Now from beginning until you have to work one year, and then you can grow your own veggie. So we have a lot of villages who, you know, like share their food with us. And with this, with this sharing thing is also a part of the culture in the area, because for Korean people, we don't believe we we need to have a guest house. We need to, whenever we have visitor, we offer them place to sleep. We offer them to the food, you know, like you don't need to to buy for a you know, this is a part of the culture. So, as already before, this also is nothing new for the village. So we we get a lot of food. People bring vegetable to us, even though we don't live nearby the other people, because we don't want other people are fed up just because of my family. But we get constantly good food from from there, of course, from beginning, people don't know us here. We struggle because we live far away from other places. And yeah, sooner or later, we get support from the village a lot.
Host 1:01:51
So basically, you would go in from one community after the other, after the other, and once you made a connection there, you would have a place to sleep. You would have food to eat. You
Lartar 1:01:59
have food. Yeah, and then we, we, I mean, my with the food, I we, we don't starve, because we grew up in the forest with know how to how to hunt, and we, that's, this is another skill that I have. I am I know how to hunt in the forest and nowhere to pick the food, and how to cook and how to hunt to survive in the food.
Host 1:02:27
Tell us about that.
Lartar 1:02:28
I mean, in the forest, when you live in the forest, there's everything there you will not stuff. There's plenty food there you can get.
Host 1:02:38
Tell us, for example, how you survive in the forest. Tell us about how you hunt, what you hunt, how you prepare, where you go to gather food, what you learned about living off the forest.
Lartar 1:02:49
In the forest, there's a lot we live and we grow up there. So you we we can make fire without without having lighter, and we have a wood, we have bamboo. And bamboo you can you can survive with many way with the you can use a vegetable. You can make a different if you know how to cook, and you can survive this bamboo you have made so many different way you can collect vegetable. There's a fish everywhere in the forest. Whenever there's a river, there's a plenty fish and crab or frog or whatever, snake or we eat everything so and of course, we if we have a if we hunt more, we have also sometimes deer and some white pig and and things like that. If you know how to hunt, you will never, never starve it in the jungle, because this jungle is very rich. At that time, we have everything like for for a chicken. How's that? Called that one, the chicken in the forest where they can fly.
Host 1:04:04
And so you're you consider yourself a good hunter?
Lartar 1:04:08
Yeah, yeah. Until now, I consider myself a hunt.
Host 1:04:12
What tools would what tools and weapons would you use to hunt with?
Lartar 1:04:15
I don't need much. I can just use. If I have one knife with me, I can survive for a long time because you can with a knife. You can make your own weapon in a junta. You don't need much.
Host 1:04:31
How would you make your own weapon?
Lartar 1:04:32
You make a sharp, sharp bamboo where you can hunt. Yeah. I mean, you cannot hunt like a big animal, but you can hunt a lot, like fish, like small animal, like that. Sometimes you don't even need to eat animal, but you have a lot of other plenty food in the jungle.
Host 1:04:54
So can you tell us about how this this would go? You would you would have a knife, and you would use that knife. Have to sharpen bamboo, you would then have a bamboo weapon. You can't have a big animal, but you can have small animals. What would be the hunting procedure for the different hunting procedure for the different kinds of animals, different techniques you would use for the different animals you can then get with that bamboo weapon.
Lartar 1:05:17
Day and night is different. Tell us, if we want to make a trap. We use the we call it the string rope, and from the jungle. And then we can make like with the thread, when the bamboo stick we can make. And then we put the trap. And then at night time when the animal came, and then the next morning you have food, yeah, from the trap. And then sometimes there's so many way you can make sure you dig a hole, and then some animal falling in the hole, they cannot get up. And with fish, you have a something sharp, you can just go like this, like Frog, frog. I mean, you can just catch with your hand. There's so many different animal when we are at childhood, we don't need to, you don't need to spend hours catching your own food so you get out somewhere, you already come by with plenty.
Host 1:06:13
So that's a skill you learn in childhood, is how to, how to catch a a small, fast, wild animal.
Lartar 1:06:20
Yeah, even fish. You just go and in the river, and you get some rock, and then you just smash, then you come back with a few fish. This we have very rich forest when we were child, I remember.
Host 1:06:35
What are the what are the techniques you use to be able to capture those animals?
Lartar 1:06:42
When you're hunting, we eat a lot of fish. Actually, fish is like our main dish for the regular meal. We fish normally it's depend on much the water. If it's less water with you, just use our head. And sometimes we use our clothes, where two people hold like this, and then one person come. We use so many way. And sometimes, for the small stream, we block the river, and then we we throw away the other and then there's a bunch of fish. So there's so many techniques you can use.
Host 1:07:18
It's as I think about this living, living in very rural, wild, forested areas, the one memory that's coming to my mind is one time I stayed in a rural monastery in Burma, and the the only way to to take a bath was to there was a very, very deep well, and you'd have to, you'd have to put the bucket deep down the well to pull the water up, and then you would use one bucket to wash you. And I was with two other Burmese men as we were wearing lunches and showering. And the trick was that you had to when the well was so deep, and it was also kind of narrow, that you had to drop the bucket at the right angle to be able to get a full load of water, but then you had to pull the bucket up so that it didn't shake too much from side to side when it came up. And they would show me their technique, and I would try it, and I swear that the most water I ever got in a bucket was about 25% no matter what I did, no matter what technique I did, I could not get more either. I would, either I would fill the bucket, but then I would lose it coming up, or I wouldn't fill the bucket, and then it would come straight up. And so I was just aware that, and this is just one microcosm. I mean, even, and washing my own clothes was another thing I would watch, the way that in rural places, that Burmese would would wash and clean their clothes. And I just because I grew up with washing machines and I didn't have that that knowledge. And so it's so I'm just Well for one thing, I'm a vegetarian, so I wouldn't do very good and in wanting to capture and kill and cook wild animals to begin with. But I'm thinking that if me, or PEEP or someone like me, were to come to your village and just hear all of these Everyone say, Oh, it's so easy. It's so easy. You just do this. This that I I think, I think I would have the kind of experience like I had in pulling the water up the bucket. I'd be like, Wait, what are you doing? How do you do it?
Lartar 1:09:13
Because they have to do it. Because I think the situation changed a lot my childhood until now, because after 1996 the military took over the whole border. They were destroying the whole natural resources, or the like rich forest, and they log in. And so we have my childhood. We never have water dry in the river. So in 19 into 1999 I came back the first time. After I left for 96 I came back the first time I have seen the river has so little water. I was so sad. And all the tree I saw, all the logging. And when I come back, and so the village, I mean, my parents. Parents are living in the refugee camp for a long time, and a year of 2013 they went back to stay the village when I was born. So we still have a small land which is like owned by my grandmother. So my grandmother still have a small property for the family where we can come back and build our house. So that's where my parents, they came back and had to relocate in that area. And for summer time, we do struggle. We don't have enough water. We have to drive with the top dog, you know, the tractor to go, carry the water from one place to another. And then, in 2014 I told my sister that we need to dig well from our land just to prepare because we don't have enough water for the April and May and the water has so little. And then I told my sister, there is technique where you have a lot of water. My sister What? And then I showed her that what kind of tree she shouldn't she should to grow. And we have. And then I travel back from Massa to the village. I carry, I bought the tree from the shop. I carry plant from method to the village. They were growing. And sometimes I brought some seeds, and then they will grow in some plant in there. And last year, two, three years. Now, we always have enough water, and we are so much water in our well. Of course you still need to like you still need to do not, especially now the gasoline is so expensive because I also bought a pump for them where they can pump the water this they have a water storage, but now the gathering is so expensive, but my sister said we have so much time now we just do by hand. It's also exercise, yeah,
Host 1:11:53
Yeah, it's definitely an exercise. I want to go more into your childhood growing up, more into the color of what life was like. Here we've talked about the hunting and the meat that you would eat, but I also want to talk about the other ways. That is, you just such a beautiful description you gave that if you it's very easy to live in the forest, it gives you everything you need. So I want to go into some of those other things that you're able to get. I'm thinking like fruit and nuts and herbs. Can you share a bit about you? Said, if you know where to go, how to get you can get everything. So tell beyond the meat, tell us a bit more of what, how you could sustain yourself in these forests.
Lartar 1:12:31
So if you live in a forest where the place that you think that forest is where you can survive, because there's so many type of vegetable just growing around you. Even though, if you are vegetarian, you will survive. There's so many fruit you can pick, you can eat. But you have to know that, is it a lot to eat or not? Because sometimes you get, you get a little bit, you know, poison from that. So there's so much. And I would say that we started because for the Korean people, we survive with rice now. So without rice, rice is our main dish. So for rice, you cannot get it right away. When you are in junta, it takes time to grow so that means, whatever you you go, you still need to prepare some rice for yourself, too. For other thing, you can just fill in, like a curry or some dishes and like that. And you could survive when you have fish, when there's a river, there's fish. So for drinking water, you have so many mountain good water, if you don't have good water, and then you can boil them, and then you drink. And then you don't have pot to boil water, use the bamboo. Bamboo are everything. You can cook inside bamboo. You can make rice inside bamboo. You can, you can do everything you you use a bamboo for a plate. And we, we never have a we have not, I have not seen plastic. When I was a child, we were eating with a bamboo bowl, and then the leaf. And then whenever we saw when I was I remember, when I was about six, seven years old, I saw a plastic bag, and then we saved that plastic bag to come back and to to cover the root where there's a leaking and then we use that one with we save that plastic yet at that kind of level, you know, like when we were a child, and in this day, you realize that over you have to pay money to to to use this kind of paper. You know, like when you see a man weaving, you have to pay money to ask that person to teach you how to weave. For our childhood, we learn. To weave ourselves. We make our own clothes, and we don't buy there's no money, there's no shop. Everyone do things by themselves. So you grow that in the forest, there's everything in there, starting from shampoo. You know, the skin of the tree you can use as a shampoo, the fruit you can use as a soap.
Host 1:15:23
Oh yeah.
Lartar 1:15:23
Everything in there.
Host 1:15:25
How do you use? How do you use the shampoo and the soap?
Lartar 1:15:28
Because there is a type of plant, the tree, you do the skin, you peel the skin, the bar and the skin, it has a slip, like slime. And then for shampoo. We use also a fruit. They can use shampoo. I have not seen the shampoo we were using like for a long time. We only use the natural. Did you like it?
Host 1:15:57
Yeah. I mean, a lot of people has good hair and in the forest and making your own clothes. How did you do that?
Lartar 1:16:00
We grow cotton. We have cotton. We make the grandparent teach us how to weave. And with the bamboo stick, you sharp, and then you make everything me ham it, yes.
Host 1:16:18
And then you talked a bit about how much fruit and vegetables there are, but, and that they grow wild, even the vegetables and but that you have to know what to eat, that will that will be safe. And so tell us a bit about the types of veggies and fruit that are that are available freely to just go and pick. And then which ones do you want to avoid?
Lartar 1:16:39
So there's a different season you need to live according to the season. So this season what kind of fruit and what kind of vegetable you can collect. And when you were a child, you follow your parents. The parent will teach you what to eat, what not to eat, what's the name, and this is become like our routine daily life. So we learn from our childhood, from our parents and grandparents, yeah. So, yeah, yeah, go ahead and also mushroom. There's so many type of mushroom, so we we eat a lot of different type of mushroom. But for for my family, we we only like the mushroom that we collect, only where we like. So there are so many type of other mushroom if we don't like, we don't collect. So we only like whenever we do farming, there's a tiny mushroom like sometimes the mushroom will look like a pot, the orange one like crunchy. And then we like, I don't know the name, but I can with, there's a lot of picture where you can they're so tasty. And, yeah, very expensive in this day, when people say one kg, five, 600 sometimes 1000 BA, for one kg. And yeah, we we eat only a few, but we love it.
Host 1:18:07
Yeah, so you spend a lot of time foraging for mushrooms.
Lartar 1:18:11
No, because in the forest, the mushroom growing in different season. Sometimes they grow even in your own garden. Yeah, you just need to wait when the season we don't need to spend a lot of time to search for food. All right, how about herbs? Oh, those are the there's, again, there's also, you know, a lot, when you cook it, you go in the forest, oh, this leaf is sour and, oh, this leaf, you have a chili, you have a leaf. And you know the taste already what you want to cook. If you cook this one, this is we go together with this leaf, with that leaf. Yeah, of course we have a salt with us. Always, when we travel, you know, like we carry a little salt. That's the main and for cooking oil, we make our like bean, soy bean, or the peanut oil or sesame oil. And, yeah, we always have some this kind of stuff where you get the salt. I mean, when we were in the village, there's we can buy a little salt, or the village brought us some salt.
Host 1:19:19
Yeah, right. And how about medicine?
Lartar 1:19:22
We are no medicine. We get treated with that natural medicine.
Host 1:19:27
Tell us about natural medicine.
Lartar 1:19:29
Natural Medicine. There's pretty much a lot of roots, you know, a lot of plan and live where you even in this day when you walk. I got some scratch on my leg and stuff. I just picked some leaf, and then I made some liquid, and then I treat my my skin like that is is a it's pretty even, you know, like chili leaf. Chili leaf is very good to to. To when you put it, apply on. It's very good to stop the when you have a Flemish, the yellow liquid, what's that called, plus the when you have in infected your skin, there's a yellow liquid inside. It's very painful, and it's very good to apply that to stop the Flemish and not to grow bigger like that, even only chili leaf. So we have a lot of like, different leaf and different medicine. And like bitterness leaf also is like to you. When you cough, you drink the tea, the water, and then it's reduce a lot of and when you have diarrhea, we have a guava leaf and stuff like that. Yeah. When we were born with we don't see any medicine. We only have the root and the root the skin of the fruit and vegetable and things like that, yeah.
Host 1:21:01
How about dangerous animals that are in the wild? Do you encounter elephants, tigers?
Lartar 1:21:08
Um, I mean, for Tiger, we have very little in our area. There's some but elephant, we see quite a lot. But when in the forest, because elephant are very noisy. You know, when they come, they before they arrive. You can hear that. They destroy the and then they the when they they can smell human. They are also very smart. When they smell the human, they don't come anymore. They go away. Also otherwise, because there's also a lot of other Hunter. So when these men human, they don't come close to us. They're also very smart. They have a very smart sense.
Host 1:21:50
Yeah, have you had any dangerous encounters with some of these wild animals in your childhood?
Lartar 1:21:54
I don't see any. Any like dangerous, I mean, folks, I have seen folks, but I think I haven't, and then they run away, they don't come and bite me. And we see a lot of deer, a lot of I think the most dangerous is like, what's that called Cobra? Yeah. I mean, Snake are everywhere until now. I when I go hiking and still see lot of.
Host 1:22:32
You're not scared of snakes. No, have you been bitten?
Lartar 1:22:37
No, never, but I got I have been beaten many times, Scorpio and Millipede, not millip Santa Fe. Snakes is not my kind of scary thing, because snakes, when they see you, man, they run away.
Host 1:22:58
Is there anything that is scary to you in the jungle, of course, nothing, nothing, never fear. How about encounters with supernatural beings or spiritual experiences?
Lartar 1:23:10
A lot of people scared of ghosts and stuff. I never scared of ghosts. I probably walk around the whole forest by myself things like that, and I don't it doesn't have in my head.
Host 1:23:24
Have you had any of those encounters? Right? Yeah, because I know many people living in the forest have a talk about a spiritual connection they have with the invisible beings.
Lartar 1:23:35
And I mean, I believe in my family are enemies. So we we respect the forest no matter where we go, where we sit. There's a owner there, which is you cannot see. You have to respect them. For me, when I go in the forest, before I eat, I always offer my food to the spirit first and then blessing my day there. Please look after me. You know, like I'm here alone as a child and, and if you if I see anything dangerous, please save me, like, just, just like that, you know, never, I never see anything, right.
Host 1:24:12
Right? Was there any fear of landmines when you were growing up?
Lartar 1:24:24
I know that those are those. They're everywhere now, but the place and the time when you were Was that something you had to be cautious with. Because the time when my childhood, we were living there, the military has not been discovered the area yet. It's only k and u control area. So the k and u control area, they know where they I mean, they don't have many enemy at that time, unless the military come. So after 1996 when they take over the area, I remember I have seen myself because and we run. We run. For like, three, four days to the border, and then we run our food. We have to go back and get our food in the village, and then the military put the landmine into our food store. Wow. So a lot of villages got riding. They lost their arm, they lost their eyes, and a lot of them step on the landmine. They lose their leg. And yeah, so this one I have seen by myself, and was that a fear you had in my food store? There's a lemma. But for me, since I have been in the military trained, I warned my family, this is another skill you have, and then you need to use, and you don't remember, you don't forget. And things can happen like this. And I warned my sister, and before you touch anything, just stay away. And then trying to throw rock or stone, and then until things explode, and you take it.
Host 1:26:05
And you've done that before, yeah, so you throw a rock, you're six paces down in a path, you see something that doesn't look right, and you throw rocks until it explodes. That's very scary.
Lartar 1:26:15
Yes, very scary. And also, I have to, I told my sister, because my sister and me the oldest in the in the in the family. At that time, my brother's not around and my dad is in his military base. And then I have to use the skill many times that I told my sister that let's break down the food store, because the food store, we have a pole. If we break down, everything fall down. If there's a lemma, it will be explode, you know, like we break down the food store, and then, then we collect the food bag, which is light on the floor, many times.
Host 1:27:01
Right? You mentioned how later on in your story, you mentioned your practice of Buddhist meditation and how that was helpful for letting go of some anger that you had developed. I'm wondering where you learned that Buddhist meditation. What kind of meditation did you do, exactly? Was it a particular tradition or technique, and where did you learn it?
Lartar 1:27:20
Because when we were young, I believe, because, you know, like the monk, save our life many times the monastery. And I know they the monk the monastery, save my brother, and then they also give us food from there's so many times that we run with our food and the monastery and we don't have time to cook, because monastery has always bare food which is already ready to eat. So they give us so many times the food that we can survive from them. And then I also curious that we need to learn to to understand what was the why we have a monk, where we have Buddhist and the religion, the religion things. So it's when you are young age, you don't see a lot of different choices. You just want to understand everything, and you follow your parents, because my parents also, they are Buddhist. The whole village, like believing in Buddhism. They they go and they pray whenever the the full moon and the activities, and whenever they have a meditation and so on. I really like so quiet. And they have Meditation Center, like in the forest, some kind of people could just go there. They they sit and so on. And we have sometimes you call your be, you know, the man who has a long hair, and they only eat fruit. They don't eat other thing. So I also deal with that. And I eat through, like, the whole week and like that, lot of banana, yes, and yeah, it is I like it, yeah.
Host 1:29:12
So what meditation techniques or traditions did you come to learn?
Lartar 1:29:16
To pretty much understand about your mindset? And then, and it's, I don't find it to be believing in the strong religion. It's just like believing understand yourself, which part of your body and what control you, which part is make you good, feeling better, you know, like whenever you touch your body and and just trying to learn about the different pieces about your whole body, because there's a lot to understand about every every small corner of your body.
Host 1:29:54
Yeah, was there a particular tradition that you followed?
Lartar 1:29:59
No, no. it just. And just try to do so many things. Religious is not my stronger things, right?
Host 1:30:05
Yeah. So you mentioned that you came to live in Yangon in 2014 and I think by now, and 2014 is right, as the transition is really it's already underway. But then 2015 the floodgates open and and I think by now, listeners have a very profound understanding of just how unique your jungle life was and this rural existence, and so describe what it was like being in the heart of a bustling Burmese city after a childhood and adolescence of something very different.
Lartar 1:30:41
Well, I think Yangon The only thing pulled me to stay there, because of my husband, because my husband, he started the business there and but from beginning, I realized that I don't like the city. Then I travel all the time. I went down to the south. I took the job. I work for Nature Conservation, which is my thing. I live in the jungle for many months. And it's, there's things that I get to see the real white animal, like the dangerous animal like that, you know, like Tiger and stuff like that. Yeah, that's, that's very rain, like is, I was called a rain forest, you know, like it's, you have all those sort of the rhino you, you know, you get, you never get to see Rhino when you try only you get this one. You get to see the rhino. You get to see a bunch of elephant with the BA, B, I mean, we put the camera trap and then we see them. We don't go very close. So, yeah, I travel a lot, and Yangon is not pulling me and staying there, but then I have a chai in 2016 that's the only reason that stay with the family and learn how to create your family boundary. So this is totally a different type of life that I didn't expect to have. But somehow life is everything you when you learn about is about experience you know like you get to learn and you achieve. You after you, I mean, everything you do there's a problem, yeah, and then when you achieve, and then you feel happy and you satisfy and and, yeah, when you have child, you don't have a lot of options, so have to follow that.
Host 1:32:41
In seeing the way that your child is being raised and their their surroundings, it must make you reflect sometimes about how different your childhood was totally different.
Lartar 1:32:50
Yes, my childhood and my son childhood, because, I mean, he do understand about my he understand, like Karen and we visit also messaw. He have seen the other family member. He went to the border. How the people are living. He has been in the village as well. So But for him, growing up like with the school, what he has and cannot compare, you know, like toys and stuff.
Host 1:33:21
Yeah. How does that make you feel?
Lartar 1:33:25
I may I feel very happy then I managed to support him. And he has, he has a life that he don't need to to face the same, like me, and he can focus on his own developing and whenever he achieved, and he can come back help other people when he grew up like that.
Host 1:33:46
So now that you've been away from this jungle life for so long in current state, and just all the reminiscence of it now, and reflecting back in all this detail when you went to Yangon and then in the later years, what did you and thinking about it now? What What do you miss about it? What stands out?
Lartar 1:34:07
Oh, I always miss the jungle my village. I don't have anything like no water, no electricity. I always enjoy to be there. I just wish that I don't have to work earn money, you know, like, because my family rely on me, I'm the only person where I work and could earn and support the whole family. So if I don't have to work and to find money, and then I could go back, you know, like, develop the whole the whole area, where we can really make something different with my experience, with my things that I can do, but since I also need to work and get in some financial and to support the family, until every make sure that everyone have food to eat. So. It's not like a big issue, but at least making everyone have food to eat, that's, that's good enough, yeah, What?
Host 1:35:07
What? What stands out that you really miss from that jungle life that you don't have now that you would, you'd like to experience again.
Lartar 1:35:17
I really like, you know, getting food in the forest, you know you, you know what you are eating. And you, you really know what you're eating, where that come from. That's I miss the most, because in our day, I live in the city, I don't know what I'm eating, where these foods are come from, what they have been treated this food, you know, like and this in this day, there's so many chemical and I don't know what our body is look like. I don't trust my body anymore. Sometimes we really don't know what we are eating. Basically, yeah, I don't, if I compare my body in the village, in the city, village, body are healthier than us because they know where they are eating. They know where these food come from. They know where they are cooking. They we don't know.
Host 1:36:12
And it sounds like as well that the kind of rural village existence you're talking about. It sounds like it's basically a cashless society. Is that? Right? Yeah, yeah. So what was, what's it like living without money and then living with.
Lartar 1:36:25
Basically, you could survive without money in the village, because you grow your own animal. You have your own chicken, your own your own vegetable. If you are vegetarian, you know you, you, you have all those land with the good fertilizing, you can grow all sort of vegetable, what you like to eat and and this something that you don't need money there. For example, I send money home, very little, and they can survive. They can live very well. And they don't need it. They only need to buy sometimes, where they'll run out there the salt or cooking or even onion, they grow by themselves, like garlic and and everything, pretty much, if you have a land you can survive, right?
Host 1:37:15
Yeah, that must be very different being in a society where you can't do anything without cash.
Lartar 1:37:20
Yes. Very different, like my, my my mom. She couldn't stay here in Chiang, Mai. She couldn't live here for for one month, she would get so different because she doesn't have space to to work, because that's how her her she growing out. And she need a place. She need a lab when she can grow her own food, she doesn't know how to cook with the gas, with the cooking electric things he he only cook with either charcoal or the wood. Yeah, right.
Host 1:37:53
I realized one thing I forgot to ask you in learning about this rural village life is insects. There must be so many insects, right?
Lartar 1:37:59
There's so much insect, but I like mosquito, like flies, and so there's a lot, but you, you, you can treat them, because for mosquito and they is everywhere when, where you sleep, you have mosquito net, and then, because you have a lemon grass, you know, like, you grow a lot of lemon grass and chase a lot of different animals, yeah, I think inside is doesn't bother us anyway,
Host 1:38:37
Right? So let's move on now to more current times. It's so wonderful having this backdrop of the life that you came from, the self sufficiency, and how you then grew out of it, out of again, to break this harmonious, beautiful picture that you've set for us with the cold, harsh reality of always being on the run because the murderous Burma army is always after you, and as is causing destruction, not just to you and your family, but to entire communities that are here. You described in the first part of this discussion how you went from here to there to here, and how you and then you knew five languages, so you got it kind of kept moving on. You went to Mesa, and then from there, Yangon, and then, and then, you're based in Yangon, but you were doing things throughout the country, so update us on your journey and talk about what what you were doing, 2020, 2021, and then, as the coup broke, how that shifted in your ongoing evolution.
Lartar 1:39:38
So after my child was born, and me and my husband, we run a small business in Yangon. We renovated Old Colony apartment, and then I could stay with my son, and we ran out, we rent out our apartment to the expert and the business running still. Until and until covid and so are running very well, but when the cool stop and when the electricity and water doesn't supply normally anymore, so and also situations getting intense, and then our tenants not feeling safe to be there anymore, and also a lot of NGO or the embassy staff, they have to leave the country. So and it's not worth it to continue renting, so we just keep it, our property like that. Maybe one day we can operate again, and as long as we are healthy, we are still safe, that's the most important. And we stay there after the coup, and then, I mean, throughout the whole year, we were staying there. And my husband is from from Italy, so the Italian Embassy Call, write email every day, like you need to leave, you need to leave. And yeah, of course, my husband, he invested everything in his work and his life. He has a big team his staff, and he can leave it because, you know, the stuff that he has also part of in his family, you know, like they have been working for a long time. When he leave, he doesn't know what's going to happen with the staff, and they don't have work to do. He trying to operate as much as he can, even though he doesn't make a lot of money, but he just keep them to get get some money where they can survive, to support their family. Then in 2022 1022 and then we realized that our son need to go to proper school. Is 26 and then it's not safe for him to stay there, because the bomb was exploding everywhere. And a road on the city, it's not safe for him to be on the road, and then we decided to move to to Chiang Mai, where doesn't matter where. We didn't think that from beginning to come to Chiang Mai, wherever we have first we wanted to be in mess up, because then we can, with my skill with the area already familiar. I wanted to work there, to stay there when I can also support more people. But unfortunately, there's no school where they can, they can give us a visa. There's no international school there. There's a warm ba they only have until kindergarten. So my son, it has to be in primary, so it's not possible. Then we, we decide to come to Chiang Mai in the end. And then I joined exile hub in 2022 September, yeah. Oh, well, with the exile hub, I mean, when I first joined the team, and then I don't have the background of the journalist and human rights defender background, but I have learned so much from the from the throughout the whole time, and like learning by doing, that's what I'm gonna say. And also give me so much flexibility. I can be with my son and I can work, and then they give me so so much free time when I can, I can learn. I can be with my son and then also helping the team that since I'm also speaking the language here, I understand the area. So I'm mostly working from beginning with the admin, like, I'm doing a lot of like, paperwork and stuff. And then I could help the fellow where they can access, where to get a document, you know, like legal paper and stuff like that. And also the later on, of course, the project is getting more and more, you know, like we grow bigger with the team, and we have also fellow, you know, like a lot of people also flee and coming arrive in the border, and then the people accessing a lot of needs. So we try to help as much as we can with the emergency support, to support the journalists who face it in the critical situation, and also the HRD. And not just that. Some of them are, you know, the one family is some of them are journalists, one family, one is HRD, one is humanitarian. So when they come together, we can't really split them. So they have to be together, no matter what the criteria is, not the main thing anymore. So the most important is they get some support. And they can be safe to live here. Yeah, we try to help there as much as we can.
Host 1:45:08
Yeah, right. What are your thoughts about? Wow, about the coup and the aftermath, and I say that with the backdrop of someone again referencing your story, you've been on the run since the beginning, from this same Burma army that's doing the same thing they've been doing for all of your life and a lot longer before that. So as you're watching this, does this feel like the same old story? Do you have some optimism or some some thought about the future? But what's your your What are you thinking and feeling as an observer, when
Lartar 1:45:39
the coup take over the country. I feel that I feel so sorry about the whole civilian, the whole country, that's one part, and another part is and I feel that, I feel that the whole country is also wake up, yeah, you know, and they can see that how military is, you know, crew to the people, to the ethnic, not just ethnic, and now they even come with their own people. Yeah, so this is also one thing. It make me that people wake up, but it's very sad scene. A lot of young people are losing their life, and they fight and they don't give art. And same as us and as I have an opportunity to support and to help them, I try my exact help is try our best like to make sure that whenever people are coming and they access some of the needs that they are looking for. Yeah. Yeah. So the good thing that people wake up whenever the country need to, you know, like to grow again, and they see how which way is needs to go back together. You know, like not just but miss, not just Karen, not just San not just Arakan, not just Rohingya, or whatever people can be together. It's not about what ethnic you are. You need to live together. That's my dream.
Host 1:47:13
So do you feel that this same old story that's been repeating itself so many generations, in my mind, throughout your life? Do you feel that this has the potentiality of finally being a new chapter and a new page in that story?
Lartar 1:47:27
Yes, finally, like I see myself there, we can be together, you know, like we are not part of this career anymore. We are part of the whole Myanmar citizenship as a Myanmar, as a current Asian, as a Muslim, or as whatever you what color you like really doesn't matter.
Host 1:47:51
Yeah, that would be an amazing new future.
Lartar 1:47:55
Yes, I wish. I would. Really wish we have some new young leader who, if they would have opportunity to create a new country, they see this as the first step that make every color of human being to be together, not Separate them because of their color.
Host 1:48:17
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