Transcript: Episode #280: Mindfulness from the Ashes
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:20
This is your first time listening to a podcast welcome. Our programming brings a diversity of voices connected to Myanmar, to share their perspectives, thoughts and reflections about what has been happening there since the military coup last year. All of our guests share one thing in common, a deep personal stake in the ongoing crisis. And it is an honor for us to be able to bring these voices into your earbuds, but however difficult to may be to hear some of their stories, we hope that you'll come away with a deeper and more nuanced understanding of what has happened.
You're about to listen to an interview that seems like it was recorded long ago. The talk is not in fact that old in terms of time, but it took place before the coup and even before the pandemic. And it almost feels as though it was from another age altogether. The interview was recorded in person in Yangon, and it was meant to be produced and released soon after. However, the world had other plans and our podcast platform shifted gears, as we tried to be responsive to a steady stream of unexpected events. When the pandemic hit Myanmar, we launched a series exploring how COVID was impacting daily life there, including monasteries and meditation centers. Then, with the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement in the US, we launched another series examining racism and prejudice in Buddhist and meditation communities. Finally, after the military coup was launched in February 2021, we shelved all of our projects to focus exclusively on that. However, we've now decided to circle back to our archive and release some interviews from what now feels like almost from another century. And these discussions practitioners earnestly discussed their spiritual path before the dark days of a deadly virus, a collapsing economy, diminishing freedoms and the Burmese military's campaign of terror. These precious interviews remind us about the tremendous gifts that Myanmar has to offer the world in the form of a spiritual practice that teaches an end of suffering and the promise of full liberation. They are an important reminder that helps break down the one dimensional view of the country as simply another failed state bounded by poverty and violence, and perennially in need of help and sympathy. As we know, the reality is also that Myanmar has been freely distributing the priceless teachings of liberation to anyone ready to undertake the practice as so, many of these stories attest. At the same time, these interviews are not meant to distract from or ignore the terrible tragedy and suffering that so many Burmese have been experiencing since the coup but rather to balance out the harsh reality that so many of our other interviews delve into these powerful reflections of the spiritual journey should in no way be seen to advocate non involvement or invite let alone justify spiritual bypass. In any case in an age of access to nearly infinite content, we thank you for choosing to spend the next two hours with us and hope you find benefit from the discussion.
Good a look at the way that have a good day today is that Okay, so here we are, just had a great meal. Really glad you can make it. Great that we can also connect in this way to Dhamma conversation about Myanmar.
Matthew Schojan 4:47
Absolutely. Thank you for having me and for the wonderful lunch and also for the wonderful furniture that
Host 4:54
you're sitting on here at home and absolutely, yeah. So you've been in Yangon. Five years, I think,
Matthew Schojan 5:01
yes, five years in April,
Host 5:02
how are you finding that?
Matthew Schojan 5:04
Good, it's different. It's it's, but it's been a very, very good experience. Just a bit challenging at points and then easy in other ways. You know, and also constantly changing as we spoke about earlier, just how fast things are moving. And yet still how unique things are here.
Host 5:36
Yeah, yeah, definitely things we'll we'll get into later as we explore how you've gotten here and where you've come from. And to start off from there to go back to your story. You're obviously quite invested in in Buddhist meditation, and your life and Myanmar. But in terms of how you got here, you've mentioned before and sharing your background, that suffering and addiction trauma, were the things that led you to meditation. Suffering is something that leads a lot of us to a practice of inner peace. The latter two, maybe not as much as a given people can definitely have suffering, but not take a certain road or path to find out how to alleviate it. So can you give us some background on your early years in New York, and the forms that these struggles took and what you did with it?
Matthew Schojan 6:22
Sure. Growing up in New York was another good experience. But did have its challenges I, I started using drugs and, and alcohol by home the first time, the first time that I was in rehab was in ninth grade. So I guess, 14 years old or so. And at that point, I had already been blacking out from drinking on a regular basis, was smoking one or two packs of cigarettes a day. And quite heavily into, into, into drugs. But it was actually a stepping point from there. After spending a few months in rehab, actually learning more about about drugs and how to use them, and where and all these other aspects of it. So I got out and continued to use and it was just kind of that was the world I knew growing up. It wasn't until I was 20 years old, or so when I first started learning more about meditation and, and yoga initially. So at 20 years old, I stopped, I stopped everything, I stopped smoking cigarettes, doing drugs, drinking, became vegetarian went on this whole kick. And that's when I first started reading about meditation. My first kind of experience with it was through yoga. So just those few seconds at the end of the yoga session, where, you know, I was getting in touch with my breath and sitting in a certain way. And there was just something there. I liked yoga, and I continued to do yoga. But there was something about the meditation in that moment. That really just captured me. And I started to pick up books and learn more about it. I was living in New York at the time in Brooklyn. And luckily, there were a lot of different options. So I started going to a Zen Center and in Brooklyn and studying a bit there and came across some different forms of meditation and dabbled for some time. And it wasn't it wasn't something that I was doing. As regularly. In the beginning. It was just, it was an interest it was it was a distraction. At that point in my life, all I had known was when dealing with stress when dealing with good things, bad things, anything. There was a reason to drink. There was a reason to party and and did you
Host 9:41
have a lot of difficult things happening in your childhood or was it more just your response to the normal ones?
Matthew Schojan 9:49
Growing up in New York, my parents divorced or separated when I was six or seven years old. My mom my father was I'm an alcoholic and an addict of sorts. And my mom had a lot of challenges a lot of partners and boyfriends, and I was sexually abused by one of them for several years while he lived with us. And also did cocaine and crack in the house.
Host 10:20
Yeah, those are some heavier.
Matthew Schojan 10:23
Yeah. And it's interesting, I clearly remember having friends at that age. And I was one of the only people that was a product of divorce at at an early age. And this was in, I guess, the early 80s. And I remember having friends or people I was with, sitting around in an elementary school playground, and one of them saying, I was most likely to, to be a smoker. And I thought it was so ridiculous at that time, because I had asthma. And I was really against my father smoking, my father smoked like three or four packs of cigarettes a day really ridiculous. You know, that's like 60 or 80 cigarettes a day. Not even sure how it was possible. But I was so against it. And I clearly remember a few years later being like 11, or 12 years old, and starting to smoke, and smoking the same cigarettes, my father smoked. And then we go to what's familiar, yeah. And then starting to drink. And, you know, I clearly remember being a kid and my dad taking me to bars during the day because he worked at night. So I'd be playing backgammon with his friends and, and then I remember having to wake him up, because we, I ended up moving back in with my dad, a few years after they were separated. So after I got out of rehab, I moved in with him. And we were living together, it was basically, to kind of see single men living together in a house and he worked nights. So he would literally leave the house at 11 o'clock at night. And I'd have to wake him up. And sometimes I'd be waking him up in his car, because he was passed out drunk from, you know, from being drinking all day. And then I had the whole house to myself all night. So I would have friends over and parties and lots of debauchery along the way. And just kind of became a lifestyle, especially during my teenage years. Yeah, this and this went on I, I recall seeing my father, you know, smoking, smoking marijuana, and I remember being at a place with him one time, and it was his birthday. And the first time I saw him do cocaine. And, you know, just these things that kind of this was the life that I saw, I knew and this was just commonplace for me that, you know, I didn't see people not smoking or not doing drugs or not drinking.
Host 13:19
Or can do conditions are what make us Yeah.
Matthew Schojan 13:21
And it was it was one of those difficult moments of my father had thrown me out of the house or asked me to leave when I was 18, or 19. And I was trying to go to community college in the US and no direction, no idea what I wanted to do. So I was forced to, to get out and I had like two weeks to get out of the house was a really dark, low point. I ended up I ended up going to stay with my mom who was extremely depressed at the time. Living in this basement apartment half a block from these projects is public housing in the US and it's a really difficult area and for about three months, or perhaps six months or so we we lived in this small studio basement apartment where we were sleeping on the same couch kind of head to toe. And I was working in a restaurant as a kind of busboy and then in the kitchen and trying to go to community college. And I eventually about six months later found a job on Wall Street as a runner, just making like $5 an hour with no benefits or anything and no idea what was going on. But I was working on a new york stock exchange. didn't own a suit or a tie or anything at the time but kind of just figured things out. I ended up spending over 10 years airs on the New York Stock Exchange.
Host 15:02
It's quite a difference. Yeah. So when you were you were doing returning to some of these drugs and alcohol, perhaps as a way to escape suffering or deal with difficult emotions. Do you remember when you started to realize that this wasn't working and that you the thing you were returning to, to avoid or relieve suffering was actually suffering itself.
Matthew Schojan 15:26
There were moments. So this first time when I turned 20, I was sober for over three years, and was a completely different person. But it was very difficult because when I became sober, I didn't know I didn't know how to be a human, I didn't know how to engage in a way that didn't involve alcohol and drugs and smoking. And, you know, I really had to learn how to respond how to how people that weren't using these tools and these objects as to cope with life or to engage socially, you know, what do people do? Where do they go? How do you have a conversation that doesn't involve some sort of, you know, partying or use of these substances in this way. And it was, it was very difficult. You know, a lot of emotions that had been suppressed, were starting to come out. Anxiety, and all the things that people should be developing naturally, in their, you know, as they're growing up through adolescence, was suppressed for me in many ways. So I had to really work on that and see, how do you just have a conversation? How do you? How do you deal with stress? How do you how do you sleep at night without having something to do it? What do you do after a hard day at work, or a good day at work or for a holiday or a birthday, or, you know, and at the same time, everyone in my life up until that point, or almost everyone in my life also is using these things and to deal with to deal with their circumstances. So a lot of it was changing who I was around and where I was, but so much was was around inner work, and was reading a lot at the time and going to 12 Step groups which had helped, but at the same time, I didn't fully relate to them. They're often looking at you in 12 Step programs are often faith based and I didn't have a strong connection with with, with Christian or Catholic faiths or Judaism or other common kind of approaches that were around me at the time. This is where I did start to look more at yoga and meditation as as a way of learning how to be with and, and understand the self more and understand the conditions of where we were. There was a lot of Influential Writing for me at the time, a lot of the standards of like Khalil Gibran and Pema children, and later on Sharon Salzberg and Jack Kornfield and Joseph Goldstein. And some of that came in later. As I said, I stayed sober without using drugs and alcohol for about three years. And then 911 happened. And it was a really pivotal moment. I was working on Wall Street at the time on the trading floor of the New York Stock Exchange. And so I was I was literally three blocks away from the World Trade Center. Our whole building shook when when the planes hit well, and I you know, still right now I can still feel my body reacting to it, as I say it, and you know, going outside and they were ashes falling down. And, you know, I looked directly at the Trade Center and saw the holes that were made in it and
I was one of the people that was lucky enough to get out over the bridge and I was on the Brooklyn Bridge Bridge when when the towers fell down and watch this puff of smoke just overtake the city. And it was quite surreal. We were also the first people back into that area that were not first responders, because the New York Stock Exchange was seen as this beacon of the, of the strength of the US and of this world. And they had us down there just a few days later. So we were going past people in hazmat suits, and, you know, a lot of armed military and walking paths, the remnants of the twin towers that were still smoking. And it was it was walking through a warzone, it was really difficult, because this was a place that I knew so well, and that we were, you know, it was, it was something that I had grown up around. And, really, it affected it affected us affected people in that area, deeply as it affected so many people at the time. And I recall, many people say that they'd never be going back down to work. And you know, and big life changes were coming. And for most people, they settled back in to their lifestyles and into the comfort of of their lives. Because that's what people often do. It was a reality check, though. It was also the first time that I had a cigarette in that three years or so
Host 21:42
where I'm on 911 912 on 911.
Matthew Schojan 21:45
I lived in Brooklyn at the time, and I remember going up to my roof, and, you know, family and friends kept contacting me and the phone systems were all down. So no one could get in contact with me for several hours. And I remember, friends that I had known from my past that I hadn't been in contact with in some time, were really worried and came out to see me and they were still using drugs and so forth. And at first I had a cigarette. And that cigarette was just as we were watching the smoke of the towers, from my rooftop in Brooklyn. That cigarette, evolved over the over the weeks and months into into beers again, and then drinking and then drugs in the next two and a half years was a very intense time of, of partying and just really being lost in that space. But then, there was a moment that I looked around, and I just realized that everything around me was it was empty, there was no fun anymore. There was it was kind of, you know, different faces, but the same experience the same cycle, these ups and downs and it was just, it all just became so dissatisfying. I just, I couldn't bear to go on in that way. And it was over 15 years ago. So it was in November. It was after Thanksgiving weekend, where I'd spent four days just using copious amounts of, of, of drugs and and it was just this time when it was enough. It was just it was so empty. So, so meaningless. And not long after that, I ended up finding a group in New York. At the time, it was called Dharma punks. And it was it was it was led by Noah Levine or Lavon sorry. And it was just, it was a group of people sitting around meditating with tattoos like me and you know, and talking about talking about life in a very open and genuine way. You know, it was it was just it was really authentic. There was or at least there felt Like there was very little pretense, people could come as they were many people, many people in the group were in recovery, you know, had had paths that were literally with drug use and with suffering and, and it was really easy for me to relate and fit in there. And it was a weekly meditation group that met in the Bowery across from CBGBs, which was like this center of punk music and, you know, counterculture in many ways. And it was interesting, because I would go up there after working on Wall Street all day, and I'd be sitting around in such a, an interesting paradox. And I really found community there. And that that group was, was based on more of a personal practices, and it was something that I connected to quite a bit. And from there, I spent a few years studying with that group and and learning from them.
Host 26:16
So your sobriety, and recovery and Dhamma practice seemed like they were all happening around the same time.
Matthew Schojan 26:24
Absolutely. I got sober I stopped using drugs. And then I maintain that because of because of meditation, because of the Dharma practice and our Dharma punks. Yes, yeah, definitely was played a strong role in that. A few months into it, I, I was, I was with my, with my partner, my current wife, and we, we were living in Brooklyn as well. And we got an apartment together for the first time and our landlord was, was opening a yoga studio, and knew that, you know, we had been meditating and going to classes and stuff. And she asked us to, to kind of to offer a weekly meditation class there. We weren't really qualified to do it at the time, but but did take it on. So we had a community there as well, that we use to learn together. And we're bringing in kind of different traditions and trying to get people just to really look at different ways of meditating different approaches to it. And so we had this kind of two communities that we were spending time in there.
Host 27:53
It's interesting hearing about you say the role, dharma punks played, because it's making me probably get into this later in the conversation. But when you look at how the Buddhist teachings have to be contextual in their environment, this is something that you know, if you know about Burmese history and lady say it on an 18th century monk and what he did to reposition the teachings so that they were relevant in an increasingly colonial environment, to that group of Burmese. As the teachings have spread outside of Myanmar and Western countries, they've done similar kinds of things. But here you are saying, you know, there's, you're living in an environment where there are different Dhamma teachings, you can go. But what you need are people maybe you don't need this per se, but but something that definitely makes you feel comfortable are people with tattoos in New York City, who are going through their own sobriety, and that by having having opportunities where the Dhamma is able to come out through these very unique contextual environments, it's not a one size fits all approach. It's able to, to find a community with people you know, and then get a teaching of liberation in a comfortable way. Well, it's never comforting because it's always something we have to struggle with. But you don't have to step completely outside of your cultural, religious, linguistic background, to access that you can stay in something comfortable and receive those teachings in there. And it's interesting topic to think of as these teachings are spreading and going into different places.
Matthew Schojan 29:27
Absolutely. And I think I didn't realize it at the time, the importance of that community and and how strong that role of, you know, Sangha, in this form of community, perhaps not monks and nuns, but looking at how much of that helped stabilize and ignite this, this interest and this, this this fire of going further into these practices. is at the time I recall really looking at it very much as how is this going to help me and then these interest in this type of practice looking out for pasta none and and really having a teacher to to focus on that with but you know reflecting and as you said the the importance of having people around and, and the the terminology the the local language to connect with people about it, I think played a critical role in in keeping that and staying on the path and not just jumping to the next thing, although I did quite a bit over the years, looking at all these different options of practices.
Host 30:44
Yeah, and that's what I want to get to next I have in front of me, you you gave me the spiritual background you can say I'll read off what what you shared with me just to give listeners an idea of the diversity of this. You range across several traditions Theravada the passion Zen Varjo Jana, did I say that correctly? I'm not as familiar with Mahayana practices of Adrianna badger Jana okay. And yoga you studied with John Tong? Siri, Mangalore, yes in Thailand. Who you mentioned study with Mahasi Seda with Martine bachelor, passionate and Zen influence teacher Bikuni Ani, Zumba Mahayana Noah Levine as you mentioned, Vinny Ferraro, the big heart city Sangha and you've attended going to retreats as well. You also did this you're in your final year of a two year mindfulness meditation teacher certificate program with Jack Kornfield and Tara brat Tara Brach, Tara Brach, Tara brach and apologies for any of the previous mispronunciation. You mentioned. You've also studied at retreats in Nepal, the what tradition?
Matthew Schojan 31:54
It would be Adrianna, also, it was it was in the Kagyupa tradition of Tibetan.
Host 32:02
That's what I was trying not to pronounce. And going on India for passion on the US. Also in Thailand, what do I see tap? What John Tong, Myanmar human. So this is an extraordinary background and practice with teachers across countries, cultures, traditions, sex, Mahayana, and Theravada. What I'm wondering about this kind of diversity, is this a reflection of looking for the perfect teacher or just finding different teachers where you're at different points in your life, or adding the diversity of tools in your toolbox?
Matthew Schojan 32:36
I would say all of the above. It's often and I remember, Jack Kornfield, talking about this idea of this almost supermarket on offer of these many teachings that we now have, and you know, as the world becomes smaller, and we have access to more information and more ability to travel, how this has opened up so much. And, and it was in some way looking for the perfect teaching or teacher and trying to find what, what worked for, you know, the conditions that I was facing, and and obviously, it just goes into this idea of the grass is always greener, and you're seeing all these different possibilities. And, you know, can you become enlightened in one lifetime? And what to focus on? Do you focus on the breath at the tip of the nose? And Anapanasati? Are you looking at, you know, repetition of mantras? Are you sitting Satsang and having these experiences or visualizations with with adrionna and tantric practices and there was just so much valuable and in many ways reflecting on it. It does lean towards some of the earlier conditioning and behaviors that we bring in and think about some of the addictive behaviors that that I had early on in my life and those behaviors that still come through and looking for a quick fix to something or to have an experience that's going to really be exciting or, you know, this different, different intentions behind behind some of these things, what's motivating that I've been lucky to be able to try out many of these different things and experience them and sit with different teachers and I'm quite grateful for all of the experiences over the years. I think in the beginning, it was very much about acquiring something attaining, and but also learning. And I was just so passionate about, about the Dharma about meditation and these practices and and it was just there was such a transformation that occurred in those early years, those first few years of practice, that, that just pushed me to keep looking. And, and wanting more and experiencing more and. And there was definitely, there was a lot to learn, there's new each time you go down one path, other things open up, and you start to learn more, and you want to kind of check that out, investigate it more. And then from there, things just things just unfolded, some of them more naturally, along the way, some have really integrated themselves into, into, into the practice that that I now do and others have kind of fallen away but have still been experiences along that path. I now find a lot of it, too, have kind of broken down into a very simple structure and practice. And rather than how complicated and rigid I made things early on, you know, at points, I thought that there were times when you needed to really focus on one thing and go very deep into it and and only do it this way and be there was a lot of inflexibility a lot of rigidity in it. And I now find that it's more of just experiences that have culminated into what is here now and to the conditions and kind of approach now that I'm that I take.
Host 37:17
It is interesting, because you talk about your, the different traditions that you're doing could be somewhat related to an addictive background of wanting the next thing and it is interesting how we bring our defilements into a very active meditation if you're if you're too hard of a worker, then you can be too hard worker and meditation if you're even the the process of doing the meditation can be approached with those mindsets that are there. To follow up, you know, some teachers and traditions, they emphasize that you should put all your energy just in one direction, not to dig too many holes looking for water, but to dig deeply in one place. You've done all these traditions and different practices, to what extent did you find that these different practices supported and complemented each other? And to what extent what to what extent did you find that they had a measure of conflict or confusion?
Matthew Schojan 38:13
I would say it's interesting, it it really depends on the mindset and, and perspectives of how how you see these different practices. You know, just thinking to how the Buddha had given, you know, many different objects for meditation and possible ways to, to approach meditation. And it really looks at what fits for for the individual. And for the circumstances. I would say at different points in my life. I needed different approaches to, to meditation, to learning. And I would say in that way, it's not that I was just dabbling in different things. These were tools that have come in and work better in different situations. So in that way, I would say that they can complement each other. And I think it's important to find what works for the individual and, and how how that can be adapted to to the circumstances. For some, the structure of an NGO Anka practice is needed because of you know, the the behaviors that they bring in the conditions that they're bringing in. Or in the same way with Mahasi with noting and some people really need to have a structured focus while sitting in that to be able to stay A mindful and to be aware and awake, whereas others already bring a lot of structure into, into their sitting space into their practice. And having a more open practice can be more freeing where, you know, working with an open awareness could really help balance their, their concentration and their, their ability to understand.
Host 40:27
Right, and that segues to my next question, which is one about culture. So you're talking about different practices affecting people differently based on their personality, their background, individually, but then in a wider sense, you have the culture, and you've practiced in a number of different cultures, culture of the tradition, as well as the culture of the country, you know, Nepal, Thailand, Burma, Japan, us, what have you seen so far as cultures impacting the teachings of these places, and teachings been modified and adapted with specific cultures in mind, whether their cultures of countries or cultures of communities as in the case of your dharma punks,
Matthew Schojan 41:06
I would say, when we look at it, especially looking at how, in in Southeast Asia, and even East Asia in many ways, how intertwined Buddhism and, and the culture are, it's hard to separate the two. And it can be, it can be difficult for people coming in that aren't of that culture to understand how to navigate through a lot of the ritualistic aspects and the traditions within that. And that can sometimes be a barrier to understanding the Dharma and understanding or even benefiting from the practices that they may engage in, in those countries. I've seen that quite a bit over the years. And one of the things we were working on when we were in Thailand was how to make these these practices more accessible, and how to find a balance between that without taking away from the culture and these traditions, but still, creating a space where people understand the core practices. And even sometimes within a culture that is rooted in Buddhism, it's sometimes hard to find the actual meditative practices, because a lot of it comes down to, to prayer and ritual and formality and more cultural, rather than practice.
Host 42:52
Right. So before we interviewed earlier today, we were talking about the earlier podcast with Alan Clements and talking about the difficult conditions that Allen faced in the 80s. And how he persevered and making the comment that you know, not every meditator can do this. And you've certainly been in a number of the Southeast Asian countries, not just as a practitioner, but also as trying to find a way to bridge this eastern West. And a lot of these Westerners coming today are facing conditions much much milder than what we learned about with Allen situation and oppressive government in the 1980s. But still, they can be enough of some kind of barrier that makes it hard for them for Westerners to access deeper teachings, what kinds of problems and challenges have you seen
Matthew Schojan 43:42
a lot of it is misunderstandings. Also time, and people coming that are very interested in meditation but aren't out of place to dedicate enough time to go to a center and spend 10 days or 21 days or a month and, you know, there's there seems to be some disconnect between expectations from from centers, meditation centers, and other places of learning, and what students have available or have allocated, to be able to, to really find a common ground on what's going to work. You know, that the difficulty sometimes in coming in with having little or no meditation, meditation experience, or experience around the Dharma and to have to jump into a 10 day course or a longer course, is quite a lot, especially when they don't fully understand what they're getting into many times, and sometimes there is limited guidance in how to navigate. One, the teachings and the practices, the structure and expectations around how to eat, dress, keep things, you know, tidy, take part in the, in the center's kind of community without even looking at how to actually access the teachings, also in different ways of learning, in terms of questioning and verse more learning through experience and through listening rather than conversing. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of potential for for challenges along the way. And in what I've seen and experienced over the years with, with these, these two things coming together.
Host 46:04
Right, right. And you mentioned the challenge that new students can have coming to the practice, I would add to that the challenge old students can have, because old students come in with their own traditions, their own sense of how the teachings came to them in their countries, and coming with a certain sense of arrogance, and and righteousness of how things should be. So on both ends of the scale, you got that?
Matthew Schojan 46:23
Absolutely. There's this disconnect there. And I think there isn't, I haven't seen much space for dialogue between cultures in that way, at least, at least in in this region around that, you know, there are there are dialogues happening at higher levels globally, with some teachers and heads of traditions, but at the level of at centers and places, practitioners. Yes,
Host 46:56
I totally. Yeah, I totally agree. And that's, I mean, that's one of the reasons why we're doing this podcast is I think these ground level stories are the ones that are the most compelling and interesting, identifiable. Some of the higher level stories are, at least for me, and the community that that I'm with sometimes much further from our reality and issues. And when I first came here, I was confused by the fact that here, it's like you're, you're you're thinking and you're saying you're conversing with local Burmese, okay, we're doing the same practice, we have the same goals, we have the same, the same acceptance of what the Buddha taught and his basic teachings what we have to do with it. And, and I believe that to such an extent that I couldn't understand the differences that would develop, I didn't have a mental capacity to see what was actually taking place I was minimizing or explaining away or being arrogant or uncomfortable or something. And there was nowhere I could go to read or listen or hear converse, to learn about where these differences were arising. And over time, these differences became much more important to me than anything else. These differences of how how we're taking the teachings in as a community as an individual, where we're emphasizing how they're coming out. So that sure the overarching teachings of you know, whether it's karma or liberation, or the role of meditation, or the Four Noble Truths, or the five precepts, all these the Eightfold Noble Path, all these things that really bind us. Okay, that's great. Let's start with that. But then let's talk about the differences and how they play out. And it was, it took me years to even realize as a practitioner, that was a thing, let alone to know what to do with it. So
Matthew Schojan 48:41
I think that's yeah, that's, it's quite interesting. And that's where many of us find our challenges and connecting with communities and building Sangha. When we're living as expats are foreigners in, in different spaces. And that's why often in countries I've been to and lived in, we've seen foreigners creating their own tsonga's within, in those spaces outside of some of the formal centers and communities to, to continue practice continue supporting each other. Right?
Host 49:18
It can be a challenge to see what degree of balance you want with how you're, you're taking from local culture and learning from it and growing and how you're also serving your own needs and where you come from, which can be different. And I think Thailand, more than Burma, given the nature of the history has done more experimentation and that way, like what pong and chat or something Yeah, but um, but yeah, Towards this end, you know, you found the wandering meditators in 2008. It has the, quote, the intention of helping meditators by bridging the gap between eastern and western meditation centers and styles and taking the mindfulness practice out of the center and into the world. So that's quite a lofty goal. That's great. I agreed description of an aim that can really be quite helpful. In more practical ways on the ground. Can you tell a little more what that looks like?
Matthew Schojan 50:13
Intentionally it was, it was really putting something out there to try to fill that need that we've been talking about. Initially, we were looking at being able to offer more things like that of that are being done somewhat here with meditation tours and finding ways to help facilitate people into centers, helping them find the right centers to practice things that would have would meet their style or needs or time and so forth. That because of other things happening in life, didn't come to fruition as much as initially expected, because we ended up moving a few times. And over the last few years, though, being here and Yangon and settling in, I've started using that platform to to help support people in in our drop in groups that we have our weekly drop in group here in Yangon. And as people often in this community tend to be transient and traveling quite a bit, we started creating this live stream of the weekly meditations to help keep the community connected, and allow people access even if they weren't traveling or if they have moved and wanted to stay in contact. And again, it's it's that same intention of trying to make these teachings or create a space where they could be more accessible, that you don't have to know about the Dharma or you don't have to be talking specifically about the Buddhist teachings, to find ways to develop a practice to be more mindful to understand these core components of meditation. And we spend a lot of time in discussion as well of looking at how to make them more accessible how to integrate these practices into daily life. And just keeping that open and and looking at it as a as a community space to be learning from each other and supporting each other in this without the formalities of being in a center or have a specific tradition or needing any of the other baggage that sometimes comes along with these practices.
Host 52:59
Right. So you do that at Allianz Francaise once a week. So if anyone's expats are listening, or you're passing through, this is a great opportunity to join. And also interesting that you have to bring in the recent political history that this is the kind of thing you probably couldn't have done five years ago. Anything such as this was looked upon suspicion, even foreign monks, dedicated practitioners coming to establish monasteries, such as with say, I do, McAndrew Mahasi say it, I had a lot of trouble just being able to stay there. So what you're doing is, in a sense, a result of the country being able to open up and the foreigner is able to get together under happy circumstances and share the the Dhamma teachings in their own way that's comfortable to them, and to do so without suspicion and a freer way so and we do we also have people that come in, that are that are from Myanmar as well.
Matthew Schojan 53:46
And, you know, in some of the feedback, there has been that it's a it's a more relaxed way to be able to sit and not have to wear certain clothes or act in a certain way or be expected to to perform certain things. And so it's been an interesting mix of culture and people along the way
Host 54:16
younger Burmese, I'd probably guess yes, mostly Yeah. I mean, that's that's so interesting, because when Kabbalah said it was on this, this part of the interview hasn't aired yet. But one of the things he said in the second interview is that that Myanmar is changing very fast. And that when he goes to the meditation centers and monasteries, he sees that there are no young people, they're there, they're not sitting and they're not serving, they're not involved. And if this old traditional style of Burmese Buddhism continues as its, as it has unabated without any kind of concept or understanding of of what the needs are at the bottom, and you're just top down implementing what's always been done, then it's going to be very staid and and non art Look, but not non relevant to who you really are and what you need. And so that's why he has adapted his teaching so much in very novel and unconventional and somewhat controversial ways to conservative Burmese Buddhist society to want to meet people more where they're at. So I think it's really interesting as this country opens up, and the needs become different, that there are opportunities of teaching and reaching them that are also trying new things, some of which might not always work in perfect ways that you're experimenting and you're, you're, you're fine. On the outside, it looks like well, this isn't what's been done before. And it's not according to this custom. But it's also able to bring people in to giving them what they need, even if the forms are different.
Matthew Schojan 55:47
And I think that's important to see as Buddhism and meditation and dharma evolves, you know, here but also globally, and, you know, this, this idea of how it did move to the west and how it grew in the West, and what that looks like, and people have different perspectives on, you know how that went. But just this idea of then people now coming, coming back to places like Myanmar, Thailand, Sri Lanka, and other places and with these other perspectives and teaching methods, and offering teachings in a way that that could appeal and help, help the help the interest and help keep people in the Dharma and with practices and let more people into the door.
Host 56:39
Yes, yeah. open more doors for them. Yeah, so speaking of cultures, you spent eight years in Thailand, I think it was five years in Burma, you practice practice sticks extensively in both. And it's funny because as close as these countries are geographically, historically, culturally, definitely, religiously. It seems pretty rare that practitioners foreign practitioners are experienced in both of those places. Generally, we fall into the Burma Yogi's or the Thai Yogi's, and kind of stick with the origins of the say it as you've done somewhat of both. So I'm really interested, I'm really interested how you would contrast the experience differently in these countries and cultures, especially in the context of the Dhamma teachings and monastic life.
Matthew Schojan 57:24
Very delicately. challenging question, I think both are quite different. And I often look at it just in terms of language even. Well, initially, when we were traveling, we were in Nepal, before arriving in Thailand. And our our first plan was to come was to come to Burma and, and meditate here, you know, many of the teachers that I had studied with in the US spoke very highly of the Burmese meditation tradition, and, and the great teachers here. So our intention was was to come here and meditate. But we needed visas. So we, we found that we had to go to Thailand, first from Nepal, because we didn't have access to get visas there. And when we arrived in, in Chiang Mai, and we were in Thailand, and we started learning more about what the political situation was like here in Burma at the time. And it was it was at a moment when the Saffron Revolution was going on. There was a lot of difficulties in the country in 2008, it must have been Yes. So we made a decision at that point. Not to not to come here to study. And instead, we decided to do a 21 day meditation retreat in Chiang Mai, walk dogs who tap. And my wife suggested we do the 10 day retreat initially, and I was like, but they said 21 days we can do it. And about three days into the retreat, I was ready to go and she was very clear in her intentions and said, No, we're staying we committed the 21 and we're staying and ended up being a very, very important and fruitful retreat and we learned a lot and the teacher there was great. Interestingly, there, there was a lot of a lot of influence from Burmese teachers. Sure. In particularly in Chiang Mai, so that walked away to tap there was a new tradition from John Tong, from watching Tom Tong and and several of the centers around Chiang Mai that we had studied at He had been influenced in the style that he learned when he studied with Mahasi here after the Buddhist council that he had attended. And so a lot of what we were learning had that Mahasi style and feel to it and adapted slightly. So it wasn't that far off. But at the same time, the structure of the center's I feel is quite different between the two countries or the lay community quite different. And, and the monks also in my experience, the the meditation practice is very strong here in Burma and, and seeing sitting at Shweta women, for example, to be in the meditation hall with hundreds of people and monks from several different countries and practicing together and very strong meditation practices. I saw less frequently in some of the centers I was in in Thailand. It felt more relaxed in many of the centers in Thailand. And I think there's something to be said for both approaches, and, and also is differences in culture. I definitely, as I mentioned earlier, I think about it in terms of language a lot of times and having lived in Thailand for eight years, when we were planning to, to move to to Myanmar, I thought it would be a much easier transition for me to learn Burmese than it was, like, Oh, my ties, not great. But it's it's good enough for you know, I get by with Thai and I should be able to pick up Burmese it's next door and tonal. And I was very wrong about that. And I found a lot of these assumptions, you know, to be false, and a lot of the differences, right? You know, they may seem subtle when you're zoomed out looking and like oh, they're both upasana. They're both Peridot and tradition.
They're next door to each other. But there are a lot of differences in the way people practice the way people understand the Dharma and learn the Dharma. I taught in a Buddhist university in Chiang Mai, teaching English and working with this program called monk chat for a while. And they and it was monks from around Southeast Asia. So there was a large Khmer community of monks and in Thai and Lao and Sri Lankan and Burma, Burmese, and you saw the difference in the way different students from different parts of Southeast Asia, who were all Tera, Vaada, and monks, even approached learning and it was a lot of their conditioning, and so forth, and also in the way that they approached practice and their understanding of, of the practices and how, how much coming from this was a university. They were studying for their their bachelor's at the Buddhist university there. But just their background, and how much practice went in and understanding of the Pali canon and the Abbe Dharma, and so forth, and going into these programs very differently by countries. And I can make assumptions in terms of, you know, overall, just based on those experiences, but it was a very different approach from from each culture and what I saw.
Host 1:03:47
Yeah, it's, it's interesting because you came to the Dhamma by having it come in a very specific form again, the tattooed people in New York City coming out of addiction. And yet, you've then you know, and that was just a very specific narrow vessel that had had to reach you, but then after it reaching you and you commit in your life to it, you've then gone into so many other diverse contexts and vessels that you haven't In other words, you needed it to arrive and, and correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like you needed it to arrive in that vessel for it to reach you. But then after developing some level of comfort, you were able to move outside of that little compartment and explore all these other different vessels in their own terms and different cultures and communities and approaches.
Matthew Schojan 1:04:34
I think that a lot of that is you know when when we look at we look at the the eightfold path and we look at these different components that that key area that that effort, what where does that fire come from and you need that initial connection to really set you not just to get on this path, but to maintain that, that momentum to him and that interest and I think a lot of that has to do with connection and, you know how, how our experiences molded us into where we end up, and what kind of teachers that we seek to seek out and types of practices. And I feel I was lucky to have found a group that I connected with in that way. And, and along the way, there have been different communities that, you know, I've, I've really learned from in different ways and have gained so much from in different ways. That it's, I think it all just kind of is important in terms of understanding what works and what doesn't, again, going back to at what point we're at,
Host 1:05:54
right, and looking more specifically at Myanmar, you've spent time in other Buddhist countries. And I liked what you said a little bit ago about how your the the immediate assumptions you made of Myanmar, whether it was language or culture or country, how, how incorrect they were. And that cracked me up thinking that I don't know if any assumptions that people can make about me and Mark could be correct until they come because it is such a different place. I think whether you're coming in as a dedicated Buddhist practitioner with the stories that you've heard from your tradition or community, you're in for a shock, I think if you're coming to, to want to learn Buddhism, for the first time to want to practice meditation for the first time, your things are going to surprise you some as again, referencing back, Allen's interview there. Some people come with such dedication, they're really willing to put up with any conditions. But it it is that the live life here is different than those outer assumptions. And that's part of the reason that this podcast I have a real truth telling of of the highs and the inspirations and also some of the challenges of being here and both sides of of this dynamic. You've spent time in other Buddhist countries and Buddhist cultures. I'm curious Myanmar specifically, how do you find it unique in this way is what aspects of the practice or the culture here have been different than other forms of Buddhist culture and practice you've been exposed to?
Matthew Schojan 1:07:24
I think I've been, I guess, after being in Thailand for so many years. Seeing how many people how many lay people that that I meet, that go to centers and actively practice.
Host 1:07:43
Here in Thailand, your sphere here, right here in Burma, right?
Matthew Schojan 1:07:48
The amount of people that I've talked to about meditation that have Yeah, just, they take their holidays, and go and go and go to a center. And that's, that's not something that I've seen in other countries as much. Just in terms of that dedication and actually practice. I think I've seen many people in other countries go and provide offerings and maybe go for this more cultural or ritualistic experience, becoming a monk for a day or a few days, or making offerings and, and so forth, doing things to meet cultural or familial expectations. Whereas, here in Burma, I've seen and had so many conversations with people that go to go on retreat, because they're working on their mind. They're working on their karma they're working on, you know, building and developing their practice and, and have an understanding of that much more than what I've seen in other places. But I don't want to make such a wide assumption. Because there are practitioners and
Host 1:09:08
No, I think I think that's fair, though. I mean, I remember the thing that hooked me when I first came to this country as a meditator in 2003, was that like, I was having high level Dhamma conversations with a taxi driver, a waiter at a restaurant, a hotel clerk, I mean, these aren't just, these are actual examples. The I remember who these people were, and not just like, Oh, you do meditation? That's good, but like, Oh, you do Blanca, like he does this systematic approach and like, go to Mogok, because I think it's really important. You know, as the Buddha talked about this kind of teaching in the morgue, Oksana has this kind of presentation. But with Blanca, he has this take on it. And that's that's also quite nice. But this other element is here and I was just I was blown away. I was like, I would hardly expect this conversation with a Buddhist scholar. And these are just people in They're not normal practices and made me think, you know, there's the stereotypes of like, you get into a cabin Paris, and you're going to have a conversation about the, the historic development of the French language, because it's just something everyone has an opinion about. And, and thinking about that in the Myanmar context, it was just like no matter what your standards, again, this is a blanket statement, it's a little bit of a general thing to say. But the the attention on the mind and the development on the mind and the desire to be in the accordance of what the Buddha actually taught and to measure your experience with what you understand of the scriptures as your teacher, various teachers are coming to you. That is just a topic of conversation and thought that people talk about here. Like they might talk about sports somewhere else. Except it has much more meaning, obviously, and much more stakes attached to it. But people to really sit right, right. Yeah, don't say that to a Dallas Cowboys fan or something. You know, you like they, you can be here and engage in those conversations, no matter what the person's background and training. And that was just something that that absolutely blew me away. And at one point, I was at a pagoda. And it was Cambodia pagoda and Monywa. And there was a group of, you know, what was it like, like 50 college kids on spring break that had just come to the pagoda to chant and chant suitors and do good deeds and, and give offering? Just like, I don't want to tell you what kids in our country do on spring break. I
Matthew Schojan 1:11:37
think we talked about that earlier in the conversation.
Host 1:11:40
Right, you had a long spring break? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's, that's definitely. That's, that's a shame that attracted me. Yeah. Any other observations?
Matthew Schojan 1:11:54
I think that really, really touches on it. And also, just this the understanding, like you said, of these different options as well, that it's not just, you know, there are different methods. And, and that, that level of, of understanding and knowledge that's more readily available, really, really is clear. Although, looking at it from a standpoint of experiences in Nepal, and like Northern India, with with Tibetan, for adrionna practices, people also understood the different traditions between, you know, Kagyu and Luca, and, and so on, and really seeing that there are different forms of practices in different ways. And there was also a very critical understanding for many about, about the teachings. So, so I think there are some similarities there as well. Right?
Host 1:13:05
Yeah. Yeah. Great. So just last topic, here, your interest in Dharma came out of trauma and addiction, and you're now involved in various mental health issues here. Where do you see the intersection between mental health and Dhamma practice?
Matthew Schojan 1:13:21
minutes my life intersection
Host 1:13:25
professionally, personally.
Matthew Schojan 1:13:28
I, it's one of the main reasons I probably started to look at mental health was an interest in the mind. I studied psychology because I was already looking at the mind from a meditation or Buddhist perspective, and wanted to balance that and understand what approaches were being taken in psychology and from the west and, and I've had that interest over over the years. And when I first started working in some of the camps in Thailand, around mental health, I was actually first brought in, to teach to teach mindfulness and meditation for people living in refugee camps. And one of the before I started working on the mental health program, specifically, one of the challenges I initially saw there was, how to present these teachings that in my personal life had greatly impacted my ability to reduce the suffering in my life. You know, I saw this as something that was that was a huge impact on on my life in terms of being able to relieve suffering and, and to create better coping mechanisms and, and more positive approach. But there were a lot of challenges in being able to teach or offer these teachings and, and these practices, and one of them was around religion. Because not everybody is Buddhist, not everyone is comfortable with learning something that's outside of their faith. And it was something learning how to work with people, as you said earlier with where they are, rather than where you want them to be. And trying to transmit the value of of, of something that that you've learned in a way that is palatable to them, that people can accept was something that really I took interest in and wanted to find ways to, to be able to offer something that kind of transcends a lot of a lot of the cultural and constructed barriers that I was seeing. And it's not always easy, it's interesting. I was brought, I was brought into that work on the assumption again, and another assumption that gets people into trouble of, well, we're in, we're in Southeast Asia, we're in Asia, teach them yoga and meditation to help them out. It's working so well, in the West. It really wasn't the case. It wasn't it wasn't the best approach is there were, there were Christian people in the camps, there were Muslim people. There were people that if we talked about breathing, even, you know, just sitting, sitting down and watching your breath, immediately went to that's, that's meditation, which is Buddhist, and I can't do that, because I'm not Buddhist. And it was just something that I really needed to evaluate or reevaluate in, in my own practices and, and how how we can overcome these things to find a way to help people because there's, there is evidence as as we know, that, that meditation and mindfulness can can help people with trauma with stress with common mental health issues, and trying to find a way to then offer that to people of, of all faiths, of all backgrounds, people that aren't interested or attached. As I mentioned earlier, when I had first been introduced to 12 Step programs, it was very faith based. And that was something I wasn't able to connect with, and therefore didn't really have something that was a valuable tool to many. And this is something I look to try to do with, with mindfulness and meditation, and how could that fit in, in a mental health space. So that's been part of that intersection of looking at, in some ways people see meditation as, as a fix to mental health issues in a place like Burma that has a strong meditative community and is primarily Buddhist, but it's not all Buddhist, and it doesn't fit for everyone.
And even amongst those Buddhists, like you said, people that are younger, that may not be as connected to these traditions or want to partake in that might not access those those tools or those services. So finding a way to make these things accessible to people. While looking at it from an evidence base or evidence informed approaches has been an interest there. Like, like everywhere in the world, there's a lot of stigma around mental health. And it's no different here. The the official, kind of the official stats and data in Myanmar, it's a bit bleak. The government says that at least 95% of those people that need mental health services do not have access to mental health services. And that's data from the government. And you know, as in many places, suicide, there's a lot of stigma around drugs, drug issues, substance abuse. We know that there are issues and and it's difficult to access services. One because there's admitted services and to because there's a lot of stigma and disgrace around that. So, mental health is a huge issue here as it is everywhere in the world. Talking about mental health is something that we need to do more of. That being said, there's a lot of interest in mental health here. There's a lot of people and a lot of organizations working on mental health. The government, the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of social, social welfare, are both interested in in improving the mental health conditions here, and have been putting a lot of effort into that. And that's something that has improved dramatically in the time I've been here. We've seen a lot of a lot of strides in that, though, obviously, a lot more needs to be done. There's a lot more access to services, as you would expect here in Yangon, than there are outside of outside of the city. And there's is there's quite a lot to do.
Host 1:21:18
Great, great. Thanks. Last question. What's been your favorite place to meditate in Myanmar?
Matthew Schojan 1:21:25
My house but I would definitely say that Schwager man has been a special center in terms of its openness, its method approach, access to teacher, community. And just overall, overall feeling I've really felt that the teachings are clear. They're the books are the books are accessible. The teacher is available. The food's pretty good. Always important, always important. And, and just Yeah, I felt that there was a good space.
Host 1:22:15
Great, great. Well, thanks so much for coming. Thanks for your time. Thank you. And best of luck with the work you're doing.
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