Transcript: Episode #225: Jonathan Crowley, Part 3
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
0:07
Somebody that may be better somebody will use something that they will be smart about that they get.
Host 0:20
Hi there and thanks for listening. If you're enjoying our podcast and have a recommendation about someone you think that we should have on to share their voice and journey with the world by all means, let us know. It could be an aid worker, monastic author, journalist, Doctor resistance leader, really anyone with some tie or another to the ongoing situation in Myanmar to offer up a name go to our website insight myanmar.org And let us know but for now just sit back and take a listen to today's podcast
1:31
Hello, really that really good. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and is.
Host 2:09
I'm back with Jonathan Crowley for a further conversation in our series of talks about his practice as a meditator development as a teacher within the organization, the Glinka, the passionate organization, I should say, and continuing spiritual journey. And we left off on the last podcast conversation, which we encourage everyone to check out to get some continuity. But the last conversation left off with talking about Jonathan's work in prisons, and bringing meditation to prisoners, and also becoming more aware of the dynamics of race and racism as it pertained to not just American society and white privilege, but also within the meditation center. In this conversation, we're going to somewhat shift gears, although all these things are somewhat related. And we're going to talk about his development from being a meditator in the tradition to being tapped to be a teacher and then becoming a teacher and what that experience was like how that was different, obviously, being in an authoritative role of helping students bring welcoming students in and bringing them the Dharma is different than, than sitting and also different from many aspects of serving, and learn more about behind the scenes of what that experience was like, and becoming a teacher and then being a teacher for many years. So with that lead in, Jonathan, thanks so much for coming back. And joining us and continuing this conversation.
Jonathan Crowley 3:31
Yeah, thank you. Joah. It's been, it's been really great. I almost feel like, you know, a sort of like this, this is a great, you know, you're an old student. And it's just been great, just to kind of banter back and forth about our experiences. And, you know, both appreciations and kind of examining some of the more critical aspects of everything and, you know, related to those experiences, and yeah, so, yeah, you know, I, you know, we were talking about some of the, you know, the early courses at Donaldson. And that was kind of, you know, that was kind of a culminating moment. I would say, for me as an old student. You know, I had taken a pretty large role in organizing those courses. And and it was actually at that time that I think the the to assist teachers who I was working with, so I managed those early courses at Donaldson Correctional Facility and the two teachers who were serving alongside me, Rick Crutcher and Bruce Stewart, I think they began to then talk with the director here in Shelburne about about appointing me as an assistant teacher. So that's, I think that's kind of where things go and and I think it was, it was just a really, you know, culminating moment I think, and and then I think it was shortly after that, that I think yeah, Barry lapping at the Shelburne falls meditation center formally asked me if I, if I would consider turning up.
Host 5:09
Yeah, so that's, that's a big moment in one's life as a meditator, many meditators listening to this have been with the tradition for many years, only a very few select of them, have actually been tapped to be teachers. So this is an experience that, that many people within the tradition don't have an understanding for haven't haven't experienced. I remember one of the things I used to hear when people would ask about the process of becoming a teacher, the the phrase would always come in an answer of, well, if you're looking to be a teacher interested in being a teacher, then probably you're not going to be one. Those aren't the kind of people they they look for. And that was kind of the the only cryptic response that was received for those younger students that were just wondering what that process Yeah, you talk a bit about your, your feeling about like, did you have ambitions and wanting to be a teacher? Did it come as a complete surprise? Were you did it feel kind of a natural progression? And what what was it like when you when you accepted and took our mental and training?
Jonathan Crowley 6:03
Sure, yeah. I mean, it's, it's hilarious to hear you say that, because I, you know, I've been on the other end of saying those very things, you know, like, well, if you want to be, you know, coming in as a teacher, it's, you know, you know, it's likely that you're not, you know, it's not appropriate, you know, all that kind of stuff, but the reality is, I think, just like in any organization, you know, and certainly, this was the case for me, you know, time I was being asked to train and be appointed, I'd already Yeah, I already thought about that for so many years. And yet, you know, I couldn't ever express that desire, or, you know, because that would be sort of seen as, as some kind of liability, or some kind of weakness, or men are a manifestation of my own ego. But I've talked with many old students who have, you know, that's, you know, and Who, then, you know, since been appointed assistant teachers, and just how, you kind of almost have to pretend you don't want to be an assistant teacher, but and any of this, there's, I think there's positive elements, and, and, you know, maybe more challenging elements of that. But I think that the whole system ends up I think, creating this kind of false, you know, sense of false ego, I guess, around that whole process. Because every bone becomes aware of that, well, they shouldn't, they shouldn't express a desire for that. And so therefore, they have to, you know, sort of be self deprecating around that whole piece or whatever they you know, and so I, you know, I was in that same place, and yet I, like I say, I yeah, I certainly did, harbor desire to serve in that way, and was, you know, really moved when, when I was asked to, it was, it was, you know, I was aware that it was a real sense of responsibility, it was also definitely, you know, an expression of, I think, confidence in, you know, a few teachers who I'd known for a number of years, and so that, you know, that, of course, felt great, you know, in the sense that, and I also knew it was going to be a very different, you know, different experience to be in front of students, you know, than what I had imagined it would be. But, yeah, so that was that was definitely the beginning and, and, and then, and I think I didn't realize just what what kind of, you know, what sort of transition, you know, what was going to happen for me as as a result of training up and being appointed an assistant teacher, so,
Host 8:49
so you reference that, in being a teacher, it was somewhat different than you imagined all those times are sitting and looking up and seeing the teacher on the Dyess that when you were actually that person that is, it was a different experience, then, as you conceptualize, can you go into what that felt like? And what ways it was different from whatever it was you had been expecting? Or anticipating? Yeah, well,
Jonathan Crowley 9:09
um, you know, so the, you know, typically the training to become an assistant teacher is a process where you then attend three, sometimes four anymore. But, you know, at least a minimum of three and four or five, you know, courses were retreat courses where you are observing much more closely the role of the assistant teacher and then sort of stepping into taking on parts of those roles, maybe taking on one of the functions which is called checking where where assistant teachers call, you know, students up in small groups to just ask some basic questions about how they're tracking the Instructions and just how they're just checking in to see how they're doing. And then it and then it proceeds, you know, from to then fielding questions, both one on one privately and then also, you know, in a group situation with the observation and supervision of, of a training teacher. So I underwent that and, and, you know, I think I quickly realized that I was, you know, so much of it was really about facilitating the, the, the framework of the 10 day course. Right. And, and so, in some ways, it was, you know, it was both fulfilling in the sense that, of course, for me, I think, for a lot of students, and certainly for a lot of assistant teachers, 80s, that they, you know, they see that that 10 day experience as a threat hold experience that can lead new students and on, you know, returning students onto a lifetime path of embracing the Dhamma in a in a very profound way throughout in, you know, throughout their life. And so, you know, the course, the retreat framework is obviously designed to give a positive, you know, positive experience. And there's, there's a lot, there's a lot going on, obviously, because just as I did, you know, as you know, we talked about when my first 10 day course, it was super, super hard, and, you know, many new students are, are undergoing a profound transformation, and then those 10 days, their first 10 day course and your, your facility in that you're, yeah, you're providing sort of the container of that. And so the training really, you know, was about how to really articulate that framework. Well, and succinctly and, in a way that also, you know, expressed the highest inspiration of of the path as well as, you know, grounding in just a sense of loving kindness and compassion for what the students were undergoing, as they underwent, you know, a, you know, I think what most people would agree is a pretty arduous experience, certainly for the first time around, but also for, you know, many continuing retreats for for many returning students.
Host 12:39
Right, so that's a bit about the training process and just getting accustomed to taking the Dyess learning about that transition from being practitioner to being an instructor and the training that went through that. Once you became a teacher, a full fledged teacher, and then you were in charge of courses, approximately, just to get a sense, so listeners have an idea of how involved you were and how much you experienced about approximately how many courses did you conduct and what was it like growing into a full fledged teacher and handling the meditative experiences of those students that were coming?
Jonathan Crowley 13:14
Yeah. So this was, I was asked to start training in 2002, just right after the Donaldson Correctional Facility courses, and that was approximately 15 years after my first 10 day course. You know, during which time I had attended, I don't know, probably, at least I think over 5010 day courses, numerous 20 day courses. There's also an old student retreat called the Sati Putana course. It's just for old students. It's only a week long, but it's considered a stepping stone to kind of a requirement for the long courses. And so numerous of those and then I gone to India, many times it set with glenkinchie. Set. I don't know how many Yeah, 30 day courses and around one or 245 day courses that were the I think at that time, that was the longest retreat that was offered at that, at that time. So and then, yeah, I've been involved, you know, on the service level, I've been involved with the trust here in Shelburne. And, you know, been on many organizing committees of the center, you know, had helped, you know, the children's courses, the, obviously the correctional courses, and then also executive courses. So I was involved in on many, many different fronts, you know, with the organization by this time,
Host 14:49
that also makes me ask a question about identity. And I'm thinking this because when you talked about taking your first course, you you would described in that first interview about you know, what the experience was like and the difficulty of it, and then kind of coming back and sitting and serving and being involved a bit more in the community, getting to meet other people and having questions at that time being quite young, wondering how this could lead to development of career or family or whatever else. And then as you went into last interview talking about your work in the prison courses, and you're through that discussion, it became clear that this was really this involve you I mean, you were a meditator, you know, in quotes capital letter, perhaps of like you were, you were now you weren't flitting between this or that, it's you use the language that the organization often used as you were becoming established, or perhaps were established in the technique. And we're really on this path of how you're practicing how you were living, how you're associated with and, and so this, this is kind of a progression of showing that, going from kind of touching this and experiencing it to going back and getting a bit more of being a bit more ingrained. And then really, like, starting to, and also I remember from last interview, be a representative of some sorts of the organization and the ways that you would take it outside and carry it to others. And now you become a teacher. And so through this whole process, I'm wondering, in these years, like, if, if you were asked to look back on this through the lens of trying to understand what this meant, in terms of identity, how did you see this, and I would also qualify that by perhaps you didn't see it at all, I mean, for some people, how they define themselves as their identity is very important, something they really think about, and it's conscious. For others, it's, it's, even if their lifestyle is pretty clear, and obvious, in some ways, they just don't really think of identity issues. So for you in this time, like To what degree were you aware of, and thinking about and defining your identity? And if so, then how was it being defined?
Jonathan Crowley 16:43
Yeah, that's a great question. And it's, like, so many aspects of this very, you know, it's, there's a lot of nuances to, to, I think, what my answer will be, and it brings into, you know, it brings into context a lot of different aspects of sort of entering the organization. You know, even so, you know, as a student, right, you are, as you take more and more 10 Day retreats, as you serve more, as you think about, you know, attending the longer retreats 2030 45 Now, now, up to 60 days, you know, there is both implicit and explicit sense around, you know, sort of funneling into the organization, but also in one's devotion to glenkinchie. So, there are explicit aspects of that, where, you know, students are required, by the time they're, you know, taking a loan course, to make a declaration that, that they are only exclusively working with this tradition with this with glenkinchie as their teacher and with this, with the technique and the practice as it's taught by going to ge. And so, you know, and, you know, this was a, you know, as I came into the organization, I feel very fortunate because I have actually a lot of contact with going could you while he was still alive, you know, I would say was, maybe on that third or fourth wave of old students who, you know, was was around when he was still visiting the center every, every other year. And then, when I was a poli student in India, I, you know, I had a lot of access to glenkinchie. During that time, a lot of contact, there was one point where I was helping to establish a new center in India. And so was in planning meetings with glenkinchie I certainly didn't have anywhere near the level of relationship that, you know, senior teachers and teachers had, but I, but I felt like I had a lot of personal contact with glenkinchie. And so, you know, in some ways, a lot of as I was entering in, you know, a lot of it was also, you know, trying to just, you know, get a sense of how I was internalizing that my relationship with grandkids, ie, how I was regarding him. And so, that was also a whole process. And just to give you, you know, example, I mean, you know, there were times when grandkids you played you know, really kind of critical sort of roles or even, I would say interventions with me that were very moving and very, you know, very important for me, there was time I saw him after I had been involved with in a pretty upsetting car accident and, you know, he and Moto G chanted with me for, you know, 10 or 20 minutes, you know, just just trying to, I think, soothe and assuage me and, you know, just, you know, just The there was just some really touching moments around around that. And, and then, you know, just Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I began to experience him, you know, in India and certainly there was, you know, kind of grappling with him as a teacher with a capital T. And there was certainly a lot of devotion being expressed here in the United States. And I was aware of that. And, you know, to some degree, I think initially, I had kind of an arm's length distance, I had a kind of a weariness around Grudem, in general, you know, and so, I think I did sort of keep kind of an arm's length distance, to the, to what, to when I to when, and where I saw that occurring in the organization, both here in the United States, but then in India, who, of course, it was fairly unbridled, I mean, you know, the folks there refer to him as Guruji. And, and so there were, there were all that, you know, there was all of these other qualifications, because, you know, on the one hand going to seem to be a shooing that role, and denying that he was in a guru position, but in fact, his, you know, his audience of students were certainly creating that role, you know, or, you know, relating to him in that way. And, you know, there, there was a kind of a whole narrative around that, you know, a narrative that went back to his teacher aside, you back in, you know, I certainly got I received, I received messages from senior students and teachers at the time, you know, that, that, that side, you back in his teacher was potentially, you know, going to be the next Metalia Buddha or a chief disciple, and granted, he was going to be either a chief disciple, and they were all there was a lot of cut deifying of glenkinchie going on all the time, you know, and so, and, you know, as a Polish student, I was reading, I was reading a lot of the pollack in and I was broadening my knowledge, putting, you know, trying to put this everything the history of the practice the tradition, the other strains of the pasta that are out there, all, you know, try to put all that into context, you know, to go back and seeing that, you know, there was there was this larger, you know, there was this larger entity of the Dhamma. And that going to G was teaching, you know, one component of it, or one slice of it, or you might say, one, you know, array of of that, you know, with certain emphases that I was increasingly, you know, weighing and trying to understand and trying to also integrate and make sense of, you know, because it it was a very narrowed down version. I mean, just just, you know, for example, you know, the Buddha taught 40 different objects of contemplation, and, you know, and Greg, he was, you know, he focuses really on just the observation of respiration on apana, and the observation of sensations and, you know, in terms of the inside practices connected to the Patna, and so, you know, I was, I think, as I became an assistant teacher, I, I was, I realized, okay, you know, I'm, I'm really signing on here as a representative of this. And, you know, there were, there were, there were elements in which I, you know, even though, even though I wanted to be in as a teacher, I was also kind of, there were, there were parts of it that I was reluctant about, I knew on some level that I was going to need to sort of give up, you know, the kind of, I don't know, for lack of a better description, sort of chummy way that I was, you know, in the organization, I, you know, just serving and sitting and just working in a relaxed way and, and just be an easygoing, and I knew I was going to have to represent a lot of the rules and regulations, and to really steer students in a way that was compliant with the framework of the 10 day course. So, um, so all those pieces were kind of in play. I mean, you know, in many ways, the 10 day course is kind of a Trojan horse, right? It's like, you know, the, the tradition is offering these Sunday courses at no charge to the public and, you know, come and see, give it a try. But there is also a kind of a funneling part that if folks are inspired by other experiences and they want to continue it Yeah, it becomes more and more defined the the, the understanding of dharma, you know, sila, Samadhi and Ponyo, you know, the, the more the pieces around morality and concentration and wisdom become more and more sort of defined in in narrower scopes, right. And so as, as a budding assistant teacher, I needed to make peace with that I needed to, and there were in many ways I already had on a lot of levels, but I, there was, there are still pieces that were that, you know, didn't fully make sense. And so I, yeah, I embraced the role and, you know, kind of wanted to do it in my own sort of, more, I don't know, relaxed or casual or informal way, I didn't want to there, you know, I already experienced some assistant teachers who were very formal, very strict, you know, didn't really didn't really embody sort of a more well rounded or integrated kind of, you know, person and so I knew kind of how I wanted to be an asis teacher and how I didn't want to be an assistant teacher.
Host 26:27
Absolutely, yeah, it's just a lot of fodder for thought. And as you're saying, that makes me think of, like, being a student, I was a student in the going tuition, never a teacher for clarification. But being a student, there was, um, there was always something to me very saintly about the teacher image. And I think it was a come, you know, obviously there on a diet, which is a little bit raised, but not too much. And they often sit very, very stale, they, their legs are very flat, often parallel to the cushy cushion with very little movement, very often in white with shawls are like a lighter gray and soft spoken. And so this is just a very powerful and encouraging really, sometimes intimidating just by, by how peaceful and relaxed they seem to be and just feels like so out of reach when you're, you know, you're struggling through sittings. But I think there's this among students there could be kind of an aura of, of eliteness of, of living in a rarefied air, of the specialty of the having been chosen to be in a tea and in that position, and just a lot of conversations among servers and students, I remember of trying to kind of understand what it what it means to be a teacher and in picking apart that experience, because it just felt like, a bridge beyond where we were, and
Jonathan Crowley 27:49
I'll do my best to do my best to. Yeah, I mean, I had that mistake, too. Right. I mean, you know, I think I told that story earlier about, you know, coming back to the center and seeing, you know, the person who, you know, the director of the set, you know, who was my first teacher, just mowing the lawn, I mean, like, what? So there was, you know, you know, too, and obviously, as I became, you know, more involved with the organization, I you know, of course, I saw just the humaneness of everyone and, you know, everyone's you know, I mean, of course, but, you know, but I think I think I would say most of all 80s just have an extraordinary level of inspiration and devotion to their understanding of the Dhamma. And, and to this tradition, and, and they devote enormous amounts of free time to the organization, they, you know, teachers are not allowed to be paid. And I think, in today's sort of spiritual retreat context, that is extraordinary. And so the level of devotion that I used to see was amazing. Now, having said that, there were you know, even in my early years, I was, you know, this early months sitting in serving at the center, I saw a wide variety of assistant teachers, both, you know, international and local and national from across the country. And, you know, there was a variety. I mean, you know, there were some who I was extremely inspired by, and there were others who I couldn't see the human being behind, you know, and, and I think there are elements of the organization that kind of perpetuate that. And I think that, you know, also began to happen with me as I began to embrace that role as a representative. But, you know, I saw Yeah, I saw, you know, I mean, by this time, I knew many tutorials, and, you know, they were just human beings and they had their faults, and they had your shortcomings as I hated it. And so when I was being appointed, I was like, Oh, well, you know, there was a prime minister. Wait a second. Wait. How can I take got this on? It's actually serious. I have to, you know, and, you know, with time I realized, okay, you know, yes, as an assistant teacher, I'm, I'm sort of, you know, I'm playing a role and you know, when I'm on the Dyess and terms of, you know, conveying the practice. And, and yeah, I definitely struggled with students who would then put me on a pedestal, pazza possibly, or, you know, the distance I needed to, I struggled with the distance I needed to take around that around, sort of, you know, and I remember, you know, I always remember the story, actually, of the Dalai Lama being asked a question around, you know, something about teachers, not, you know, when they're, when they're sort of off duty or something like that. And he said, What, what, he didn't even understand the question. He says, you know, what, when you're a Dharma teacher, you are never off duty. And that was such an ideal, you know, I remember and I was like, Oh, my gosh, you know, and, and so I think I just sort of tried to find my own way of navigating that role. And, and, yeah, I mean, you know, it is it is very human. And I think there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of Sir Wizard of Oz, you know, kind of curtain, the, the whole veil of being an IT and, and then what the reality of, you know, that everyone I think, acknowledges that we're, that, you know, as a as a teaser. We're, we're just beginning students ourselves, we're still we're just, you know, trying to make progress. And so that helped me to not to take on, you know, try not to take on any errors around that. It's just to see, you know, and, of course, you know, when you go back and sit your retreats, as it says, Did you realize, oh, you know, I've got, I've got a sewer of a mind here. And, you know, it's humbling. And you remember, you remember that, and you you do your best, of course, to convey that humility to students so that they don't miss take you in, in any ways. So, yeah, behind the scenes, it's a great question. I mean, in some ways, it's very ordinary, except that I would take periods of 10 days and devote it to just being being 24/7 on behalf of, you know, 60 or 75 students. And it was an extraordinary experience to watch the transformation from the other side, right to watch it from the place of a facilitator. And there were elements of it, that felt definitely felt, I would say, wrote, you know, I, you know, there's many aspects of being of the training of being coming in at, which is following a script, you know, making it your own, but, but not varying from a certain parameters framework, you can, you know, and so I, I was aware of that, right from the beginning. And, of course, I had already experienced many teachers who I felt like we're just, you know, through going through the motions and parroting what's going to do with se or what many other you know, so I could already tell that was a part of, you know, the culture of being an assistant teacher, where you there were, you know, it sometimes became a joke about what kind of refrains, you know, an old student could count on hearing from a teacher and so, you know, trying to, you know, you know, and, and hoping that I could, you know, be myself, be more myself, not not sort of go with those who are scripted ways and just to convey, you know, more authenticity. I don't know if I succeeded in that, but I certainly tried. And there were certainly times when I also had to just really, yeah, just go by the rules and make decisions around that.
Host 34:13
Yeah, no, that's great. I don't want to pick up on something that you mentioned a bit ago in your answer, you're talking about the identity issue and about your your hesitation with Grudem and grou ism and yet also your your growing faith and belief in the practice and, and in the benefit you were deriving from it. It makes me think about my own trajectory. And I'm recalling my my second course I did in Japan. And after the course, I sought out one of the teachers and wasn't a teacher on my course. He was a teacher who just happened to be at the center afterwards and hit him with a litany of questions on like, day 11 of just like, Well, why do we do this instead of this And shouldn't we be doing like this and really just hitting them hard, very critically minded person that kind of understood things by challenging them and by intellectually digesting them. And he's very compassionate. And I really appreciated the brief interaction we had where he began to answer and then he just kind of smiled and was like, you know, I think maybe you just you need to go into your practice, I think your practice is going to start to answer this better than than I can. And that was a really light bulb going off. I mean, it's just after my second course. And it was, it was making me realize that I had at that point in my life in my early 20s, I had gone through the world, by relying on the power of my mind and critical thinking everywhere I went, and I could see how far that got me and I could see the shortcomings. And I had come to the meditation center because of the shortcomings, because there was intrinsic pain and suffering and confusion in my life that critical thinking was not solving. And so I was I was very much of the mindset that I need to do something to move beyond this box of critical thinking, but I don't know how to, and drugs were away or experience, you know, intense experiences were away. And so his answer really, really spoke to my deep sense of wanting to understand the world beyond critical thought. And so I really set me on a trajectory for many years of really wanting always wanting to go back to my practice, and using my critical thought only insofar as to understand the technique and practice, when this happens, should I be doing this or that when I'm in this situation, there's this and really wanting just to get clarification for better practice, rather than critical thought on its own. And what, in many ways was trying to was was consciously, intentionally both because of myself. And my background, as well as the messaging I was receiving from the organization was wanting to, to really know what the word is let go or submit or, or, or give up or something to my critical thought to really let that not be such a prominent part of how I understood the world, but to, to leave that behind, whatever, whatever that critical thought, wherever, whatever direction it went, and whatever it taught me. And I think, you know, looking back on it, I actually think that was a really good decision. You know, I think that's what I needed. I really needed at a time to get out of my head and to insert myself into the practice. But I don't think I think for me, it was, it started to feel that there was a time when that critical thought should have started to turn on and increasing capacity. And it wasn't an all or nothing thing for me. It was something that that I had just turned off and and then not deciding to use that tool it had led to other other consequences. And it reminded it really spoke to me. I'm recalling this book, I read one time by Stephen Batchelor. And in the first chapter of the book, he describes an experience where all these Yogi's that are following the Dalai Lama see some I don't know what it was some kind of seeming miracle take place like I don't I don't know what it was like rain falling. But then I think that's what it was actually, I think it was rain was falling. But the hut where the Dalai Lama happened to be in rain was not falling on that hut. It was just the rain was avoiding that place. And it was kind of in the distance. And the several Yogi's he was with were saying, Oh, yes, you know, I see it. I see it. Yeah, it's not, it's not falling on that. And Steven bachelors, a young man saw didn't see what they were seeing. He saw the rain falling everywhere. But because he wanted membership of the group, because he wanted to take on a more spiritual sense of the world. He said, Oh, yeah, I see it, too. That's amazing. That means that he's avoiding the rain. And that anecdote just spoke to me so strongly, if so many incidents is not quite that glaring, and not quite that intense. But so many instances where I, I intentionally was wanting to, to push aside my critical thought that was clearly saying one thing. And in order to gain more acceptance and admission into a more spiritual way of looking at things, even when it was wasn't entirely felt or witnessed. And another thing I'm recalling is Sam Harris, also, in his young years, became very dedicated to meditation. And he was Mahasi in his case, and he said, at that time, I was so susceptible, and so open to wanting to learn something new and go outside of my norms, that when he later learned about the story of John Walker Lindh, he was the the American who became a Taliban, also young, impressionable age of his 20s. He said, There's no difference between me and John Walker, Lindh, like if I had been, if I had somehow found myself in a community of esoteric Taliban, anti American philosophy, like I can see myself just as clearly dedicated myself to those extremes as I did intensive meditation practice, I just happened to get one instead of the other. And, and so it's this this question of like, How To what degree do we balance the critical thought with the the faith or the the teachings that are coming from a master? There's no exact answer to it because I still very much believe that if you walk in if you learn anything from a teacher and you're stuck on your mind and what you're thinking and what you're challenging, you're really not going to learn something any act of learning is an act of submission. There needs to be some kind of submission to the knowledge to the technique to that feature to the organization to something in order to get new information is, but there also needs to be balanced with some level of critical thought appearing in some time at some form, but not overwhelming, being able to dissect and take apart and look at it. And I know for me, and in my, in my later development as a, as a meditator established in the practice to use that word, again, I think there was, there were critical things that that didn't really hold. But the way I got around that was the whole critical mechanism is flawed in some way. And so this, this process of examining things in this way, is inherently limiting in terms of what I can understand, whereas the practice is not. And so it became almost like a sense of pride, to, to abandon critical thought, even when when it was very apparent and obvious that that some things were this way or that way, and to replace that with, with a faith of a teaching and an organization. And it felt really good, you know, it and I think that that's something that's kind of inherent, and in, in humans, I think you can study this with religion, or political movements, or even colts or, or anything, but there's something that like to, to be doing something that you have so much faith and confidence is the right thing to do to be to be following some teaching or some faith, which is telling you in which you really believe and believe, perhaps at the expense of putting aside critical thought in that moment, that this is, this is the right way to live one's life, this is the right action to do. You know, life is human life is so confusing, how do you spend the hours How do you make sense of it, and you can spend so many, so much of your life is lost in this confusion of what to do and how to do it and never getting any answers, and no one knows anything and blindly in the blind. That to feel some degree of certainty some degree of faith, and to see the apparent benefits and results of that faith. It just feels so good to have that kind of certainty. And community that you are doing what you're meant to do you are you are you are spending your time in the right way to even know this is a right way to this is a better way to spend time. And this is a lesser way to first know that. And then which which that itself is an achievement, and then to select the right way and not choose the wrong way. There's there's just a sense of clarity and passion and power in that that's, that's really fantastic. And just on a, you know, inherent fundamental human level just feels really, really good. And I remember what that was like, but I also remember what I gave up to get there. And that you know, and as I started again, like, these aren't black and white things I started like, Absolutely, I needed to abandon some of that critical thought it was completely getting in the way from what I was trying to learn. And there's a way there's a there's a, there's a there are lessons that meditation can give you that critical thought cannot. And so, you know, you do need to let go at times. But there are other places where you kind of need a bird's eye view and kind of need to evaluate and look at it with these God given or nature given gifts, have a mind that's able to dissect things critically, and, and have some trust in how you're analyzing it. Yeah,
Jonathan Crowley 43:13
I mean, I, you speak to something that I think is really universal, and many aspects in many ways. And you're and you're really touching on I think, you know, to a perspective of understanding, you know, entering into, you know, deep, profound meditation, the path, the path of the Buddhist teaching the Dhamma. You know, it's a developmental, it's a developmental process, and I think you're speaking really very much to the need for balance. And these two, the two pieces that you're talking about this sense of, I think, devotion, to one's practice, to just to just, you know, being willing to undergo silence, stillness, and to see what what wisdom emerges from that, from that experience. And then, of course, also just this, you know, I mean, I also come from a critical thinking background, somewhat academic. And, and, and how to balance that right. And I think for for students, for new students, for students coming into the practices, and it's, it's very individual, it's very neat, you know, I as certainly as an assistant teacher, I would see students who had an immense amount of devotion, but were not necessarily thinking critically about what what they were saying or how they were, you know, kind of couching the whole experience or, or in some ways not knowing what really what to do next, you know, In terms of taking, needing to take a certain step in their practice, you know, things were very oceanic or universal, or, you know, they just, you know, all they needed was their devotion. And then you also saw, you know, as I saw students who were, you know, like, you're describing yourself, and I also experienced myself, you know, very critical thinking kind of intellectually oriented and wanting to hash you know, kind of digest and in moldings around, and the need to just, you know, put that aside and just take, you know, have a sense of, of confidence and faith in an unruly kind of an unknown sort of developmental process. And so, I think the critical piece here is about balancing that and knowing when you need what, and, and, you know, you were also touching upon pieces of this where, by, you know, there can in certain, you know, traditions, there can be this experience of sort of a group thing, right. And, of course, if you're entering into a new community like that you want to belong, you want to be a part of that community. You, you may rationalize some things away, you may legitimize things that you actually have questions about, you may, I certainly did, I found myself even, you know, quite early on, in part way, way, before I was an assistant teacher when I was just serving, you know, courses back and you know, you know, back and forth. There were many things I was observing that I felt like I was sort of excusing or saying, Okay, well, let me put that aside, there's so much benefit here. Let me and you know, and I wanted to belong, right, I wanted to belong, I wanted to be part of that whole thing. I was profoundly, you know, transformed by it. So I wanted to just take it, yeah, just to be a part of the whole thing. And yet, as time went on, I found myself, you know, needing to recover my critical voice and critical thinking, to to, you know, and the willingness to kind of examine and question things, rather than to just sort of accept, but there is a place, I think, for that there is a place, I think, as you mentioned, for just accepting instructions and practice and just trying it giving it a trial, seeing what emerges, going through that unknown process. I think the problem comes when there's that, that there becomes a conflict between the two, or whether when we're getting messages that we shouldn't be critically thinking or that that's somehow a problem. And that, you know, and, and I think, you know, as I began to get more involved, I think an assistant teacher, I did become a little bit more critical. And I also found that there, you know, I began to hear a lot more, I just got more messages around the resistance to examining and questioning things, and that I needed to not do that. And so that became a concern for me. So, you're speaking to a lot of developmental pieces here that, you know, are, you know, which call for balance? I think and, and, and yet, ultimately, there needs to be integration, right. And I think that's a key key word here, key piece that I was guiding me for a long time is I found myself wanting to integrate, on not on a lot of different levels. And and I think increasingly, as I got more and more evolved as a representative as an 80, into the organization, I started to feel like I, you know, I can't my whole self can't fool is not able to serve show up. I had to compartmentalize. And that increasingly became more and more difficult for me.
Host 48:54
Yeah, and I think what you're hitting upon as you reach higher levels of the organization, that it's not just a question of compartmentalizing this information for oneself. But it's, it's instructing by if not formally, by, by Vibe, or by by just introducing to the format of the organization and teachings and stuff to the younger generation, the new students that are coming, kind of how to think and in what ways to engage and not engage. And that was what I also imparted with to those that were coming in that same, you know, for those for those things that seemed that that were hard to explain or understand. I had the ready made answers that that I think anyone in the organization kind of knows the organization speak of how you respond to this or how you respond to that, or what answer you give to this. They're the same everywhere. And I would pair it that and then when a conversation would try to move beyond that parodying and or I found that there was an intellectual engagement that was beyond my capacity to really adequately resolve and cover it up and finish it. Then the answer or would just be well go to practice that that will give you the answer. Because this is all just talking. And this is this is not, you know, this is not really the practice and not why we're here. And so it was a way to short circuit and cut out that real investigation one way or the other. So I think that that that became something self perpetuating.
Jonathan Crowley 50:15
Yeah. And I think I think as a culture, the organization sort of fosters a, maybe an overemphasis, I think on, on faith. And, and, Greg, it certainly gives a huge emphasis on that on the role of faith. But, you know, what I, what I understand now is actually that, you know, faith as, as a, as one factor in, you know, sort of is, you know, there's a there's a system of looking at, through the, what's called it, those are the five friends, you know, faith efforts, concentration, mindfulness wisdom, you know, they all need to be in balance, right. And that actually, you can have sort of excessive faith, and that that will actually under undermine your practice and the fruition of your practice. And that was, you know, I, I, I learned that after I left the tradition, you know, and, but while I was in the tradition, I, I felt like that was that was, in many ways, a currency that I needed to maintain. And I think in some ways, as you did you know, when that when it came time to question things, or when things were being questioned, that I couldn't sort of answer except by parroting components of just that faith piece, that I started to feel a certain level of dissonance, really, and so yeah, that and I think that the need to belong, you know, fit into that. And what I began to do was compartmentalize, I began to sort of make excuses, sort of be apologetic, and in certain departments, but say, Yeah, but the benefit is really great. And somehow this is all going to resolve or maybe the organization is going to evolve, and you know, you know, sort of shift its shift this mindset or shift this piece of the culture. Yeah, so I could see that the organization, you know, was made up of humans, and, you know, as all humans are flawed, and Hall, human organizations are flawed, but what was harder for, I think what became harder for me was that the, the, the organization itself, was cast in this sort of light that it could do know, that there could they couldn't be no shortcomings, or he could do no harm or no, and, and that, you know, I noticed that much more after I became an assistant teacher. And that became problematic for me as time went on. And, you know, I think I was very focused on for myself, in terms of integrating the practice in my life. So I spent, I said, you know, we talked earlier, you know, I really, I really fell through the cracks, I, you know, I took my first course, in my college years, I spent some, and I was able to, because of my economic privilege, to attend a lot of courses to serve a lot of retreats, and take the time off, and I delayed my own graduation from college for about 15 years. And part of that was very positive, like, I would not, I do not regret that in the least. Right. I said to myself, this is higher ed, these are traits and serving others, this is higher ed. And yet I was aware, you know, there was a part of me, you know, I, I went to the private schools, you know, in New York, and I, you know, and they were all sort of conveyor belts to, you know, college graduation and, you know, a typical middle class lifestyle and so, you know, I, there's probably a, you know, sort of still keeping in mind, okay, I need to I need to I need to ground this, you know, even as compelling as sitting these retreats where I mean, there was a time in my life where I, you know, I would do a college program for a year and then, you know, I wasn't sure what was next I would do some retreats that maybe that would work part time, and then I would quit that job because, you know, a long course was coming up a long retreat was coming up, and and I did that for many, many years. And at the same time, I knew Okay, I need to I need to really integrate this I need to you know, this there's something profound here I want to bring it into society writ large at large, you know, I want this to be something that you know, is not fringe, you know, which it was when I first started sitting and I want this to be part of the mainstream what what that would be so amazing that if You know, college students could, on a regular basis, do these kinds of retreats, they didn't have to steal away time to do this, or you didn't have to sort of steal away time from work, you know, and I was also watching, you know, the mindfulness movement, you know, sort of led and certified by Jon Kabat Zinn's MBSR work, you know, I was taking off the research was, you know, happening, you know, in the National Institutes of Health, and, you know, there was extraordinary, you know, there was such an acceptability that was happening at large, you know, the fact that we got, you know, these 10 day course formats into, you know, correctional facilities, which are essentially paramilitary organizations, right? I mean, that's how they're, that's how they're run. Right, you know, and, and so there was, there was a level of acceptance, I began to see more and more just, you know, your regular, conventional, mainstream corporate folks coming to sit and it was all, you know, very acceptable. And yet, I could also see that there was an under culture, you know, around Folk is particularly infants who are taking retreats of, of, you know, sort of escapism, and I would, I would say that I certainly took as many years as I could, to kind of, you know, buffer from having to deal with society, too. And, and yet, I also there was a part of me that really wanted right society writ large to accept, you know, this and was scheming and myself how to do that. And in fact, you know, I ended up for my undergraduate degree writing, you know, 100 Page thesis on on Vipassana meditation as taught by going to GE, you know, and communication skills. And that was a huge accomplishment. For me, it was like, getting the word out at this level, and who knows what the ripple effect will be, right? No. And, but that, that, that notion of, of integration was became more and more important to me, I saw I saw the pitfalls around you know, only, you know, just sort of escaping and doing, you know, retreat after retreat serving, sitting and not not really knowing how to interact with society, or interpersonally, or being able to have relationships or, you know, hold on a steady job, like I, you know, and I saw those tendencies in myself, I saw the desire to escape from that in myself, and so, but probably what was also happening, I think, for me, was that I was, I was seeing that I could actually bring this into the world, right, like, I could be a vehicle for actually broadcasting and integrating this into the world in different ways as a college student, you know, just by virtue of, of working in settings, where I could talk about meditation or, you know, influence co workers to go sit, attend a chorus, you know, all that, you know, that was all really important to me leading up to being an assistant teacher, but the need for integration, in some ways, was even more important as a as an assistant teacher, one, because as an assistant teacher, you know, again, we, you know, assistant teachers do not take remote renumeration for teaching and conducting courses, which is an amazing thing about going to these traditions. But in order to do that, they either have to be financially independent, or they have to have flexible work situations that allow them to do that. And so they need to be in the world, right? And I think when could you sort of set that up on purpose, you know, so that so that the offering of the Dhamma was not kind of compromised by financial gain, or that or even sort of no professional status.
Host 58:52
So I think when one's talking about having faith, there's a lot of different ways that faith can manifest and particularly when you're looking at the passionate meditation and practicing some teachings of the Buddha, that this has a very specific forum. And I think that having there certainly a faith in in the power of these teachings, and the benefit that these this practice gives you, and the faith that and I think this is not actually this is not just true of a sense of following meditation, this is true of really anything you do in life, that whatever you're doing, and you start to have a faith that this is serving you This is doing you well. And so therefore, you should invest and do more of it. With meditation, it's a bit of a different animal because it can it can feel less tangible it can, you're you're not you're not necessarily having concrete results, although sometimes you might, but in many ways, you're just gradually feeling better in many different ways and that and you're overcoming certain inner defilements as well. And so that process of coming out of these defilements can give a kind of faith that like hey, this this thing actually works. And that was certainly true in my case where I tried many other things and this gave me more benefit faster than anything else I'd ever done. So it gave that faith But then you can also have a faith in the particular teacher or a faith in the particular technique or a faith in the organization. And so I think one has to separate and tease these things out. Because I think that the, the way that faith has manifested both in in the way it's encouraged and talked about within the organization, as well as the way that meditators then come to respond, and to feel it is that these two things are one in the same, and they're not really separated out. And it was really, in my experience of going into Myanmar and starting to go to different to visit and talk to people at different monasteries, and meditation centers and everything else. But it when when looking at developing or encouraging faith among the students, I didn't really feel a sense of trying to instill or inculcate or encourage a faith faith as a practice of the of what one was doing, that one would not just have faith in the Buddhist teachings, but one would have faith in organization and teacher and technique that this went part and parcel into that. And so that that is something unique. And that is a choice. You know, that is that is a choice that this organization and teacher meaning Blanca, made to in terms of the messaging, to want the faith to also encompass those things. Because I've never gone to other monasteries or meditation centers before, especially in Myanmar, where they're so plentiful, I hadn't seen the possibility for differentiation, I hadn't seen the possibility that one could do this. And not this, I just saw everything coming together. And I thought this was the way it had to be. And so it was really eye opening to me, once I saw that there could be a practice where faith in the teachings, meaning the Buddhist teachings, and the Buddha as a primary teacher, that faith in this could be could could be disseminated without the tag of faith in the particular and attachment and, and identification with the particular school that was teaching it that that was. And because I saw that that could be done that could be separated. And it could be done with one without the other, that for the first time that made me realize, oh, in the blink organization, this is a choice. This doesn't have to be this way. This is an intentional, an intentional additive, that for whatever reason is being done, that there could be models that don't do it this way, and still work and are very effective. And I think that the process of having that faith in, in those things, not just the overall teachings, but also not just meditation as a thing. But particular faith in the in the teacher or the organization and the technique that that well, first of all, that does a lot to engender and encourage community. You know, I think that that's, that's a really remarkable in some degree because it becomes an insular community. But it goes back to that thing where like, it felt so good to feel part of that like minded community that knew they were doing the right thing with their time, and that we're supporting each other in order to do it, that was just an amazing feeling that it's hard to replicate in other places. And when I would look at other traditions, I have to admit that it was lacking somewhat, in terms of that, that real cohesive community and like in the sense that I could travel around the world, meet a growing meditator from anywhere, anywhere, and immediately feel this sense of solidarity and brotherhood or sisterhood, as the case may be or just just a kind of common language that we both already speak and that we're able to immediately connect on that level. And that was really a product of creating that community of shared values and commitments. That was really a beautiful and wonderful thing in some regard. At the same time, you know, I remember what our friends at Kessler said that when he looks back on his going two years, and he has the observation that that really kind of shocked him and hurt him when he realized this is that when he talked about his dharma brothers and sisters, he did not mean people practicing other meditation techniques, he would not look at a Mahasi meditator or Thai Forest Tradition, meditator. Anyone else has a Dhamma brother or a sister that was reserved for people within that tradition. And that was really painful for him to come to that realization. And it also reminds me what you said in a prior interview that when you heard going to talking about the spread of Dhamma, around the world, and how beautiful that was, over time, you started to realize, Oh, he's not talking about the spread of Dhamma. He's talking about the spread of my particular teachings and where they're going. And, and so I think that, that this becomes something really hard to untangle that, in one way, this sense of faith really helps want to belong to be part of something greater than yourself to feel that you're on the right track and be filled with supportive brothers and sisters who speak that same language and, and yet also, you know, the sense of community has its drawbacks in terms of in terms of the rigidity of, of of what one is expected to do how one is expected to think and And, and what what one is not expected to do or think about or talk about it definitely has those limitations, but it's a, you know, it's the these are really nuanced conversations and really hard to take apart, because it's very hard to talk about in the way that I think we're trying to do, where we're not trying to exotic size or build up or romanticize the, the impeccability, and instability of a of a particular organization teacher, we're also not trying to tear it down, we're trying to have a very nuanced conversation of, of the extraordinary benefit that certain decisions and establishing this tradition have provided on a personal level that we've seen. And we've experienced, while also being very honest about how some of those decisions and very intentional decisions that were made, and that were not made and other other teachings that were made here, how that created certain barriers and even mental complexes, that actually over time started to realize inhibited the very practice and the very progress that the technique was trying to point towards.
Jonathan Crowley 1:06:02
Yeah, yeah, I think you raise a lot of really important issues here around just how faith is articulated in different contexts. I think, you know, I mean, you know, just to just to go back to, you know, some of the early experiences I think students have on the course, you know, glenkinchie, you know, sites that very famous suta, I think it's called the Columbus, where he's, I think, speaking to a particular tribe of folks, and he gives sort of a criteria for, you know, rejecting things. And so he says, you know, you know, it's, it's proper for you, Columbus, you know, to doubt to be uncertain. And then he says, you know, don't go, don't believe just because you've heard it, or because of tradition, or because of rumor, or because of Scripture, or because of surmising things, you know, or because the teacher said, so, you know, he, you know, he says Columbus, when you yourself know, these things are unwholesome, these things are believable, these things are censored by the wise, these, you know, then then you abandon them and opposite, when you know that these things are wholesome, you know, you can accept them based on your own experience. So, it's kind of this caveat that right, that the Buddha himself and glenkinchie reiterates, you know, gives this caveat around, you know, don't against blind belief, right, against blind faith. And, you know, I think for many, many new students, that's a very reassuring scripture that they, you know, that they understand that the Buddha said 2006 years ago, because, you know, I think, you know, we there, there can be this tendency among all of us, you know, first sort of, you know, kind of Pollyanna, you know, kind of thinking and it's, you know, it's all good, and then I can just, you know, believe everything, so, so that so in some ways, the Buddha is really kind of reinforcing the need for some, you know, for critical thinking and, and relying on one's own wisdom. I think within the glenkinchie tradition, I think the difficulty is that the the faith and confidence that one has in one's own practice gets conflated with the necessity for some of the rules and regulations and, and for some of the framework around the practice and the practice itself. And, and the exclusion of other practices that the Buddha gave, but then it also becomes confronted with the way the organization I think, is operating. Right. And even that, you know, the teacher glenkinchie, you know, and that, you know, that I think there's some folks who feel like they, they cannot question at all, what, what going good, he says, and I think that's kind of where things can get a little out of hand a little bit where that that type of faith is, you know, does become, regardless of the caveats, given a blind faith, and I think that there is, you know, as I got more and more steeped in the organization, I saw that their, their, that their, you know, blind blind faith was, in fact, sheltered, despite all these caveats. And that was, you know, that became kind of concerning for me. So, I don't know if that sort of speaking to some, you know, gives an overall sense of it. And I can, you know, and I certainly can talk a little bit more in details about, you know, some of the things that but, yeah, and I think, you know, I think it also became the whole sense of what was being defined as the Dharma right, was being, you know, increasingly conflated that, that that when Greg he was referring to the Dhamma he was referring really to his his men effort of interacting with the Dhamma. You know, and I remember having to say, and, and hearing, you know, from other old students, but then, you know, having to really distinguish, like, wait a second here, you know, going through this tradition is not the entire end, the organization is not the Dhamma, you know, as I began to see more and more human, you know, typical human shortcomings, that's the, you know, all, you know, that any organization has, and yet the sort of the defenses or the excuses or the kind of, you know, whitewashing, you know, based on Well, it's, you know, you just have to have faith, you know, those kinds of justifications, I had to tell myself more and more now, wait a second, you know, the Dhamma, the organization is not the Dharma, the organization is a group of humans who are, you know, executing an apparatus to disseminate these practices, and only really actually a certain slice of the practices, if you look, and even though that's justified within the context of the framework of the, the tradition, and the practice, and the 10 day course, and, and the long courses, it's still just us a slice of the entire teachings of the Buddha Dhamma. And so I hadn't begin to make those distinctions and make those assertions and remind myself more and more, as I kind of came upon that kind of, and it wasn't just, it wasn't just kind of a blind faith, but there was a, there was kind of a rigidity there behind that. And there was also a kind of an arrogance, that this was the only way. And, and I, you know, you know, I certainly I felt that way about it, I felt that this was the only way for a long time. And so I had that, but I also understood the danger of that and felt like I needed to qualify that and allows, you know, newer students, particularly to come into it on their own terms, with their with, with all of their questions, right. And I think, I think on some level that is encouraged, but at a certain point, again, I think, you know, as students progress to taking the the long longer retreats, the 2030 45 day courses, and certainly as to become a teacher, you know, the the, that sense of faith gets kind of codified, it gets kind of rigidify it gets it's, it's, it's, it's not just belonging, but now you're representing and so therefore, you have to be on board in a complete way here. And I think that I think that some of those transitions don't actually, in practicality, in today's in sort of the typical life of a household or allow new students really the time to digest those those decisions around how their sense of belonging to their organizations gets conflated with sort of what's you know, termed as an explicit surrendering to glenkinchie as their teacher and, and this practice as their only practice. And that this is sort of considered the, the, you know, the one and only path. So I think that a lot of stuff gets becomes, you know, again, it's that sort of Trojan horse process where, you know, you kind of get into the fortress, and then it's, it becomes a different ballgame. And one that, yeah, doesn't, you know, provides less and less kind of questioning and examination. As as you go further, and then I began to experience that.
Host 1:13:53
Yeah, and I think that this is when you're looking at the different forms of this faith takes I think there's a one can describe it as something of a starting faith in a in a, in a more advanced faith and everything in between, in the sense that when and then for those that are involved in deeper levels, there becomes something of a very intentional, even though it might be subconscious, still, code switching and doublespeak in terms of how you speak to this kind of person and how you speak to that kind of person, and knowing what to say and how to say it. And, you know, I think coming into the course, the Glinka model really fits within this whole wave of what's been called like modern Buddhism or Protestant Buddhism, meaning that in the last half century this wanting to present a form of Buddhism quote unquote, that is stripped of its more fantastical elements and and unexplained things that is described as logical linear fitting with the modern modern age scientific excetera. GLINKA does presents the technique like that in you know, very much so but but he's not It's not his own creation. He's not alone in that he's it's a product of a time that this is What many people were doing and in reinventing and as one does with any kind of spiritual practice or religious practice finding a way to make it relevant and appealing to the generation that was living, then by being able to keep the core teachings but adapted in a way that was that was suitable for modern sensibilities. And so, you know, the 10 day discourses are very much in line with talking about scientific and logical and the mental benefits once gets and the mental balance in the modern world and all of that, and it's really very, very light on on the more esoteric and, and mystical and magical parts of it. But then as one develops, I don't know how much of this is really in the discourses like maybe there's bits here or there. But so much of it is just in the culture, just the culture of the centers of being involved in the communities and starting the the more, you're taking courses and spending time there and having access to various people who've been there longer, the more you're starting to have access to different stories, and these are these are stories about is I mean, the most profound story, the one that you referenced before is that say, as you begin is the next Buddha Maitreya, that this is an Blanca is it will be his attendant, and that anyone who is it, the more closely aligned you are to the individual teachers as people and as well as the technique itself, the better the chance that you will be born to catch that next asana and this is a very real thing. And this is something that if this was in the dialogue, or the description of the meditation technique, from day one, if it was on the website, if it was something that was discussed openly, even though everyone that's that's progressed beyond a certain point in the practice, certainly knows this very well. And many, many, the vast majority believe it on some level, either believe it ardently and fervently, or, or aren't really sure where to hold it, but but are a bit scared as well, if it's not true. And, and then, and then there's this whole range of things like the magical powers or reading minds, or invisible beings or rebirth, all this other stuff that is talked about very lightly at the beginning, sometimes not at all, even later on, but are part and parcel of the the conversation in the community, that that makes up the more advanced stages. And so like this is another example in from my experience of how, like as, as I would deepen in with the technique, and with the organization, I would, I would be privileged to hear more of the stories and the greater degree that I could accept these stories and, and believe in them and have faith in them meant, to me, it meant that it was that I was I was closer to the tradition to the teacher to the technique to the commitment, and everything else. But there was very much a code switching going on where one would be very, very mindful when talking to someone of your own station, or perhaps a little higher and more experience that, okay, these topics are now open for discussion. And now we can really, we can really go there and show faith and belief and all these things that we're talking about and how true they are and how much we as a community support them and abide by them. And this is really why we're practicing and what we believe in. But then when one would talk to someone a bit lower and experience, the real care in what what was shared what was revealed what was admitted to be to not, and this was all done in the purpose of one word that defined everything and that word was confusion. The word confusion was the verb that was always used to discuss and determine whether or not someone was of a certain station to be able to hear that and that if someone was just starting out as a new student, or or was still learning this or that, giving them the the real thrust of the intention of where this was going, would confuse them because they didn't have enough experience with the practice to be able to hear that truth and hear that message. And so there was a constant code switching and doublespeak of how one would interface with the outside world or new students or potential new students or, or or students that were still fighting their way and then how one would converse with with with those that were older and more advanced where you can just kind of relax and sink into this deeper faith. And in some way, there's one anecdote that that really illustrated this for me. I was I had when I was in Myanmar. I had gone to IMC international meditation center where do you begin taught going as teacher and I had bought I basically bought every material they had there just was like, Oh, this is great to have. And one of those things I happen to get was a book of CDs that were all in Burmese and that was we began talking and I burned the CDs onto a computer hard drive and I no idea what they were saying didn't understand for me he's but just so cool to hear His voice and sometimes meditate to his voice. And it was just one of many files and I then I shared the file, which was many, many gigabytes at that point with any meditator I come in contact with to give them discourses and books and whatever else. And that would then get shared and passed around to other people. And there's some really great stuff on here, because some stuff I got from Burma that was just not very easily available in other places, somehow, that that whole package of Donald material got shared with a teacher. And that, and the teacher was very alarmed to find that I had access to these talks by Saju beroukhim. And so she so what transpired next was, she found out that she had she had taken a trip to Burma, I found out that that I was there, and this tribe had come from me, found out that I was meditating in Saigon hills. And so I was doing a one day course in this cave, and literally stalked me literally sat outside the cave for I don't know how many hours until I was done, and then confronted me and demanded to know, where I had got what she was calling contraband material, I was really confused. And she went on to say that you know this, in this discourse, or this conversation, see how Juba can is having a series of conversations about his encounters with invisible beings and magical powers and all these other things. And this would be very confusing to be able to bring out into the world and have new students and potential students here and understand this would give them a very different view of our tradition, I mean, actually would give the accurate view and there's nothing wrong with that. But it would, it would give a very different view to how people look at the tradition and the message we cultivated. And she went on to explain that she was part of a a somewhat elite committee, Adama Giri that was aware of these discourses and we're having discussions about whether or not and how they should be released, and had decided that these cannot be released. And so because I had them in my copy, I had to be very careful, they didn't know why I had them and that my long course status was jeopardized. Because I was potentially sharing something that shouldn't be shared, I simply just said, I got these at IMC, I don't even know what they were, I was just I just enjoyed listening to them. But the anecdote was, was startling really, because it it just showed the level of awareness of sensitivity of knowledge of discussion, that was taking very explicitly that was taking place about the knowledge of their primary teachers teacher who was expected to be the next Buddha, speaking about things that are completely consistent with, with with the scriptures and with how the what the Buddha himself said, but was not in line with the way that their that the technique or the 10 day courses were framed, and so therefore, was problematic, only problematic if it was released. And if it was public, it was not problematic if it was elite, and in the possession of those that would not be quote, unquote, confused by it, that would, that were developed enough to be able to understand it, but not to those who are still coming around the modernist rational, scientific, logical framing of it. And so I think, I think that this is just another way that faith can be broken down into, into all these different elements of what's being told how it's being told, when it's being told, and to whom?
Jonathan Crowley 1:23:09
Yeah, wow. Yeah. Well, first of all, I, gosh, I'm sorry, about that experience about being hounded by the organizations authorities around around these materials and just, yeah, and, you know, it's, I'm trying to, yeah, you know, it's, I think, you speak to a lot of different things here. And, you know, both in terms of just, you know, how the Buddha's teachings, you know, began to be disseminated, you know, in, in the post sort of colonial era, you know, modern era, and how it had to be, you know, couched in scientific terms for acceptability in the West. And, you know, for a long time, I thought, well, you know, glenkinchie, you know, I used to, I used to compare it to the more the real sort of stripped down versions that we, you know, I think we're, we're aware of, you know, I'm thinking more like, you know, the sort of mindfulness stress Based Stress Reduction System, which, you know, has taken out all, you know, all of the sort of esoteric aspects of the Buddhist teachings. And I used to think, well, you know, Greg, he is really, he's really maintained a lot of things although it's, it's, it's really very funneled, the whole experience is very funneled. And it's a kind of a graduated revealing, you know, in the long course is going he goes heavily into stories about devas and the cosmology of the Buddha's teachings and how, you know, certain practices like the concentration practices are connected to the 31 planes of existence and so, you know, that's that gets revealed in a kind In a kind of a, you know, sort of shortcutted version on the long courses, but one is exposed to that. And the presumption is by then, you know, students can either accept or not accept it. Some do, some don't. And, yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of importance put on what a student is kind of ready to hear or assumed to be ready to hear, based on how new a student or not or whether a Westerner or someone from Asia, this all these things, I think that his you know, you know, it's been documented before, I think that you're aware of that, you know, quite good. He was really fielding a lot of different cultures, the Burmese culture, the Indian culture, and then this, the Western culture initially, from, you know, hippies who had, you know, were coming to India and, you know, rejecting their, their religion, that they may be, you know, they're, they're brought up with and, and so there's no, there's just, yeah, there's a lot of different contradictions here. Through which, I think, unfortunately, the way that some of the rigidity in the organization and the way that rules and regulations are played out, you get these kinds of sometimes he's, you know, I certainly witnessed over, you know, 30 years in the organization, almost what I would call witch hunts really, around, around these, these, this, this piece of what was what was considered appropriate or acceptable, or a part of the Buddhist teachings or, you know, allowed within the going big organization. And, you know, back then, you know, there wasn't a whole lot of other games in town, right, you know, there wasn't a lot, there was no internet, so people couldn't go and examine stuff, but now it's like, it's all out there, you know, and people, anyone with an enquiring mind can just go hit a few clicks off the computer, and, and, you know, understand aspects of the Buddhist teachings that, I think, are being I don't know, what's the word sort of, given in the sort of bite sized chunks in these kind of, I don't know, frigid formats. And I don't know, I'm not really articulating myself very well here, Joe, but I just think that again, it's like, what you're, what you're, I think, describing it as kind of hitting upon some of the strictures and rigidities and a sense of what is the Buddha Dhamma and what is not the Buddha Dhamma and conflating that with, you know, one organization and one traditions version of, of that the organization really sees itself, you know, there's, there's other elements that come into this faith, it's not just a faith in it's not just a faith in the practice in going koji in in the Buddha Dhamma it's that this particular tradition is in fact, you know, a, the pure and pristine form of the Buddha Dhamma and, and then how that kind of how playing that out gets enforced, I think organizationally, culturally in the way that teachers are trained, and in the way the organization lives, the world, you know, lives in relationship with other Buddhist traditions. You know, it, you know, what we sort of touched upon here, I think calls upon into a whole big issue of a type of Gosh, how do I turn this you know, in some ways, a greater identity with identifying with the whole organization and the tradition as a as in some ways, somehow in and of itself epitomizing the purest of the Buddhist teachings, the purest form of the Buddhist teachings, and that, that is part of what is gets that, that messaging, both, you know, in the longer courses and in the culture of the organization is what you begin to hear more and more of, and it's, it becomes a little problematic because, you know, again, you know, the, the organization the tradition is not the entire Buddha Dhamma It's it's, it's it's very self selected part of those teachings, and yet there they are kind of articulated and elevated to a level of, well, first of all couched in the terms of pure and pristine that they get, you know, that they did back from, you know, this unbroken chain of teachers back to the Buddha. And, you know, all that, you know, again, we're speaking about this, how the need to belong, or have faith or confidence in the practice the tradition and glenkinchie how that gets conflated with this larger. And I'm just going to say, you know, mythology, really, because it's not it's it ends up when one really begins to examine it not really being totally true, or being certainly incomplete in its in a way that it's broadcast.
Host 1:30:57
Yeah, and I think the question also comes with what does one have faith in? And I think you're right, that there's that conflation, and that I think, one in the practice might not even necessarily know how to answer and it would, obviously depend on their development. I mean, there's one half faith in the value of this one hour of meditation or having a lifestyle of Sheila Samadhi Ponyo, and that alone does does one have faith in the way the organization administers and carries out these courses and the teachers conduct them? Does one have faith? And in Glinka? Is this this primary teacher and source of knowledge and guidance and wisdom? Does one have faith in in the more magical elements that behind closed doors is really the topic of, of many a conversation and many, a confidence in in, in being able to share things that are not to be public, but are very, are very, very common conversations and really make up the the meat of the culture, once you get more involved is when our faith in that there's one of faith and the ultimate thing which is that set in very harsh tones that say, how do you begin is the next Buddha, and that proximity, the greater one's proximity to him in the technique and by virtue Glinka when, when he was alive, and now I'm not sure how quiet that how quiet that plays out, but certainly proximity that some part of that meaning, dedication, faith, and by faith in this sense, it's really meaning, a any, letting go of any shred of doubt, or, or, and doubt, comes in the form of critical thinking. So it's really just holding that in a really a very confident and, and dedicated and humble and faithful light, that this is true.
Jonathan Crowley 1:32:40
And I think that I think you're experienced in Myanmar as as, as mine did for me, you know, when I went there, when Carolyn and I went there, you know, you start to, you start to experience Dharma centers, or monasteries, where there is this incredible devotion to the Dhamma. But it's, you know, they're not necessarily slicing and dicing and making distinctions, or calling their particular focus or emphasis, the only way and that they recognize that there are many ways and, you know, and and I think on some level, you know, it's funny, in some of the long course, is going to be himself acknowledges that as well, and kind of, in his own way, acknowledges that he has chosen, you know, the objects of fade, not the end and Anapana, particularly, for specific reasons, because a large majority of people will be able to work with those objects. And, and, and that, you know, and so he, you know, he he, on one level, he does sort of distinguish it, and then on the mental level, there it is, it is really seen as the only way, right, so there's, there's these these, yeah, there's this sort of double messaging that is going on that just yeah, you know, and, you know, let's, I also want to just, I want to also just make a distinction here around, there's a spectrum, you know, just because you've been in the authorization for 30 years, or however many years, you know, and even if you're an 80 there's a spectrum of where people fall and what they accept on this on this extra. So, you know, there's some full, you know, teachers that Chari is who, you know, feel like, Listen, I'm just here to improve my life, you know, in incremental ways, and that's it, I'm not I'm not I'm not interested in pagodas or devas, or, or or future lies or past slides or who's going to become you know, the future Buddha. I'm not I don't care about any of that stuff. You know, and they are they are administering and conducting the retreats. With with that level of engagement, you know, and they, you know, and they leave students process of, of embracing all the other aspects, esoteric and otherwise mystical aspects of the Buddhist teachings to their own, you know, to their own evolution around that. So, I, you know, I there is there is room, but there also is a sense of, I think, as, as one sort of, you know, I'll just say it in these terms ascends the ladders of the organization around, you know, at SR at, there's there, I think there is a currency that the more the more devotion around these esoteric aspects, and particularly in where, you know, we're going to G fits in that and, and a narrative even around serving the tradition, you know, and serving serving the mission of glenkinchie his mission. And, and even though I would acknowledge there's a lot of confusion around the messaging on now is, are we, you know, is going to was going to be just distributing seeds for the masses to just get a taste of the Dhamma? Or is this tradition, really a tradition that is supporting students to attain the highest levels of liberation, you know, Nevada, and both those messages are given right from the get go? You know, you hear that right, in the 10. day course. You know, and I think there's a lot of confusion as you as you begin to enter the organization, about about that, because certain, there are certain things that are emphasized and other things that are not, certainly the organization is, you know, developing centers, I mean, there's already, I think, almost 200, or more than 200 centers around the world, and the pace that that it continues, the need for more and more teachers to, you know, teach the courses and centers to, that are popping up around the world is, is continuing. And so there's a justification that, you know, the of this need to sort of just spread the seeds of the Buddhist teachings. But then there's this other part of the culture, which is this, you know, really this, this, this sense that this is the be all and end all, pure and pristine way, that the Buddha, you know, really taught to reach liberation, and that, that, and then and then there's kind of a superiority, a sense of arrogance around that a sense of inside insularity, that all these other traditions are teaching, you know, essentially, either polluted or contaminated or diluted versions of the Buddha Dhamma. And, you know, that becomes, I think, something that, you know, you you can't help but ingest as a representative of the organization.
Host 1:38:15
There's a couple things that come to mind and hearing what you said, I mean, one as I just appreciate your more nuanced analysis of the the ways that the different members and especially teachers, taking in imbibe the information that really speaks to what kind of mind it is, how susceptible that mind is, how, to what degree, this kind of methodology and faith starts to kind of get ingrained and reshape that mind and to what degree it might resist it or to what degree it might just not even pick it up and just not be so interested in not a big deal. You know, there is I will get into this in a future conversation. But as I went to Burma and started to do a lot of my own travels and research and conversations and found that, that some many actually of the things that Gonca says in discourses are really not quite accurate to my understanding of modern day Myanmar, Burmese history or other things. When I would share some of those examples with meditators that were in the blanket tradition that were very serious. Some of them like me, were very confused and disturbed and resistant and didn't really know what to do with this. And it really bothered them on a deep level. Others could care less. And I couldn't really understand that because that was not my mind. But I recognize that was their authentic responses that they just didn't care or if they were to say that didn't care is not not the right way to say it. They did care but it had absolutely no impact on why they were doing the practice or how they were going about it. They they were fascinated and they loved what I was doing presented zero challenge zero. It did not do anything with hindering their faith in their practice, whereas others it was a major hurdle or they either it was a major hurdle that really upset them and they had to deal With what it meant and how to integrate it, or they, they responded very aggressively by trying to shut down the argument in whatever way they could, whether it was whether it was picking apart what I was actually saying, or whether it was going after me and starting to make personal attacks or insinuations about my character, or my mental state, or, you know, my intentions or something else, and but these are different minds that are responding to this in different ways. And I think that's, that's, it's very important to understand that and also to take responsibility that in my case for the ways that that it was harder for me, and that I was susceptible to believe in certain things, and that when the process of encountering information in the world and in scholarship, which contradicted what I was learning about the methodology behind the technique, upset the very practice of the technique. That was that was my experience. So I think that's also good to say, and to put out there, the second thing that that I get from your conversation that that I was hearing was that going back to this kind of doublespeak and doublespeak might not be quite the right word for it, I don't know what it is. But to break it down, what I found is that going because discourse of written and oral things is very wide, he has said many different things on many different topics and there and people who have devoted themselves to this technique, know, these know his expressions, almost a scripture, I mean, know that, you know, in the 30th, mid into the seventh day discourse, he says this, or in the afternoon instructions on day six, he says this or this question and answer, this VRI publication published in this year, he answered in this way. So his answers become some kind of like scriptural authority of, you know, of, of what he said and how he said it. I remember one time saying to a friend, it dawned on me, I said, if you were in an argument with a fellow blanket meditator, and you were disagreeing about something related to anything technique, or or organization or, or practice or whatever else, and you wanted to prove your point, would you be more successful proving your point by quoting something from the Buddha or by quoting something from Blanca? And he said, Oh, hands down, you would be much more effective in quoting something from Gregor from the Buddha they would say, Oh, well, yes, but the Buddha Allah, you know, these you have to look at scholarship and how it's been under, you know, all these different things would come out. But with Glinka, I'd be very clear. Well, he said this, and that's, that's, we now have a precedent. And that's, that's the key thing there. This is a precedent for how we analyze the situation. Just to go off on a little tangent before I get back to my opponent doublespeak. It reminds me of like I've had conversations with, with, with people that well, I'll just reference the two things I'm thinking of Actually, both kiwis, both New Zealanders. I had Jared Newell on a on a podcast recently. And he talked about how he wanted to be a monk on during the pilgrimage to Burma. And teachers were discouraging him from that. And he went to see Glinka himself and had a conversation in which the link also discouraged him. But Jerry kept pushing and kept saying, Well, I really want to be it and Gonca kind of threw his hands up and said, Okay, you want to be a monk fine, be a mug, and Jared put that in his back pocket. And no one could do anything with it. Because this was a verified quote, and permission by the teacher. That was even though it came in kind of in a somewhat amusing form. But this was a carte blanche for whatever he wanted to do. And because there was precedent, no one could say or do anything about his decision to be a monk and not not lose out on the status with the growing organization. I'm also reminded of a conversation I have with Ross Reynolds, the center manager of New Zealand, where when I was visiting that center, he showed me with some pride, that on their vast wilderness land, they had cooties that were were kind of in the style of monks in the forest. And he said that this was very discouraged at centers, but that he had somehow finagle the way to get direct permission from Blanca that was on record, that he was able to do it. I think it was one of the last things if I'm remembering correctly, I don't want to quote Ross because it was years ago. So if he's listening to this, he can correct my understanding of it. But from my memory, he was one of the last things Glinka did before he his demise was that he granted permission on the record to Ross to construct these And so New Zealand is the only center in the world as far as I know that as anything approaching cooties, because there was a precedent, there was a a state, you know, something on the record, stated, irrefutable, that was from the teacher himself. And so there was nothing that anyone could do. But getting back to this, the this this concept of what I'm calling doublespeak might not be the right word for it, we can work that out later. And looking at the just the vast, incredible critical importance of the primary teacher abiding by something or saying something. What I find in this vast amount of written and oral things that God has put out there is that he's pretty much said. He's pretty much responded on most topics in a wide variety of ways. And so it becomes possible To whatever argument one is giving for, well, they should do this better they do this which is harmful, or there's, there's this thing, which is not quite clear. They could it's very, it's very possible for someone to go back as you, as you referenced in your last answer with this, this citation of assuta, where they were, he references not to believe something just because the teacher says it. So anyone that ever engages in an argument about how there's any sense of blind faith or lack of critical thinking in the blank organization, you can easily be challenged or shut down by saying, no, no, no going 10 minutes he taught, you know, on day three of this time, and this, you know, this place, he said these words exactly like the fact that he said this, that he was so clearly saying, so clearly articulating that your own practice needs to lead the way how can you possibly have this argument? How can you possibly say that this is what he was intending, or this is the culture of the organization, when he so clearly says this, And of course, organizations are fallible creatures, and even ATS get confused and, you know, do things overzealously. But this was certainly not the intention, because you could see right here, how clear he was in articulating how the practice was supposed to unfold, and how the centers in the organization was to be set up. This is this is this is on the record, and it's irrefutable. And what I find when you have enough of these conversations, that any argument that's posed, there is something that he said somewhere that is a direct challenge that statement and authentically a challenge to it, you know, like, Yeah, well, that's right. And if you start to go down the road of challenging like, well, what, what did he say this time? And what did he meant? It's, you know, you just you kind of get lost in, in this in, in a discourse of life like this. And but he said this, and so, you know, it's other people carrying out that understanding. And that's in all these kind of confusing conversations. That's where our friend again, Zack Kessler came up with this term that he coined a take home message, what is the take home message, and that's a way to circumvent these arguments where, when you're talking about blind faith, or or, or being close to other traditions or being, you know, having a sense of arrogance, with the pristine purity or lack of critical thought, whatever one wants to go into, there is always going to be some phrase somewhere in the corpus that very eloquently and powerfully speaks against this argument that it could be this way, rather than getting bogged down and citing this over here, that over there. One has to look at, well, what is okay, yes, he said this, but he also said that, and we also see this as an example. And so if you just back away from trying to prove legal cites of what he said here versus what he said there, I think the way to look at it, as Zack coined and encouraged is, what is the take home message? Sure, he said that, but how was it being enacted? How was the How was the culture actually taking shape? And if you were to speak in this way, or that way to speak to an insider and someone higher up? How, which one would be more natural and more normative and, and follow more of the convention in the flow? Well, that's your answer. And so I think that because, you know, because Goenka spoke on so many topics from so many different angles.
Jonathan Crowley 1:48:09
Well, you know, you said you said a lot of great things I'd love to touch on if I can, if you don't mind, if I you know, riff off of some of the things you mentioned. You know, I think that that, well, I mean, let's just start with some context, you know, just from the 10 day course, you know, you know, toward the end of the end of the 10 day course, going to G talks about his own history coming into contact with his teacher side, you book in, and sort of the timing of, of all of that. And he you know, he dates it to, I think the timing of the six Council, the worldwide, you know, Buddhist councils that were held up and held since the Buddha died, that I think occurred in 1954, in 1956. And he he kind of associates, you know, the, the idea that he got the Dhamma with with that council as as being, you know, which is also associated with the heralding in the Burmese tradition of the beginning of the sort of second cycle of the Buddhist teaching. So there's a belief, and again, I'm not sure where this originated in Myanmar, but there's a belief that, you know, the Buddha's dispensation, you know, is strong for I think, 202 100 or 500 years and then it you know, it begins to disappear and dissipate and, and then it's kind of it revitalizes, right. And so, according to that narrative glenkinchie connects his receiving of the Dharma, from psychology, and then his bringing it back to India, the way you know, as the birthplace of of the Dhamma, as you know, in some ways as a, he begins to position himself right in terms of that timing and in terms of, you know, and talking about how he received this pure, you know, Jewel of the teaching from, from psychology. And there is, of course, a huge focus on practice with, you know, again, I would say the takeaway home message around Partly it is, yeah, it's important, but not as important as as potty petite in terms of, you know, being able to gain liberation. And so, um, so that sort of sets, you know, I think that sets a kind of a foundational context for some of what you're pointing out. Because, you know, and my own experiences is that, you know, because, you know, early on, you know, because I do have an academic background, I got into reading the Pali canon, and studying Pali and, and, you know, although that was that was, you know, encouraged, I was aware that it was very few old students who were doing that very few assistant teachers who were doing that. And that, you know, in some ways, my, you know, sometimes my breadth of knowledge around the suitors would would get questioned in terms of what was being emphasized in the tradition. And, and the takeaway home message I was getting was that, you know, glenkinchie, essentially, is the harbinger of the second sosna, the Buddha's Asana, and that, you know, we're here to fulfill this message as, as a, as a pure and pristine form of the Buddha's teaching. And, and so, you know, it was almost as if glenkinchie himself was being elevated, you know, above the Pali Canon as as a as a as evidence of the scriptural you know, the Buddhist scriptural, you know, heritage, but even, even in some ways above the Buddha himself as a result of that, you know, and that's why you your, what you what you're saying here, in terms of, you know, someone quoting the Buddha, as opposed to Guangzhou Ji would have a better stance of chance of defending some, you know, rule or regulation or even understanding of the Dhamma would, you know, would fly because there's, there was, there's a sense that, well, you know, this is a tradition of practitioners, and, you know, you know, the evolution of the Buddha's teachings was that it became more, you know, it converted much more to rites and rituals and intellectual recitation, and less on practice, and that there were fewer practitioners and certainly fewer practitioners, you know, who were becoming liberated, and, and that was the, you know, by the mid know, 20th century, that was just a trickle, and this is now the revitalization of it, and it's, this is this is, you know, this is the bus to get on, basically. And, and, and, you know, I think that there's a certain organizational kind of arrogance and superiority. In fact, I would say even supremacy, I would use that word here in operation that I, that I would even say, has racial implications actually, given given just the history of how the Buddhist teachings came back from Asia, you know, in Neo colonial times, and how it, you know, just the whole way in which Imperial countries translated the scriptures, and then in the successive waves in which it found itself in the West, you you, you have, you know, a whole you have you have a spectrum around, you know, how much of the esotericism and how much of the scientific is supposed to emphasize, but you also have, you know, who's who's who's, who's able to access this, you know, in the population and what, you know, what, what is the, how diverse are the students who are receiving the Dhamma and, and how inclusive are the Buddhist traditions, all those things play a role here, but, but I, but just getting back to this notion that that, you know, that I think is actually in some ways the take home message is that somehow, you know, going through these trician and Greg he himself is is kind of articulating You know, or reforming the Buddha Dhamma. Back to its Tibet to some notion of its sort of pure and pristine form that had gotten muddied by, you know, centuries of, of evolution, you know, essentially, you know, it's just, it really became, it became I, that became really difficult for me to stomach as I began to see sort of the arbitrariness in which, you know, different rules and regulations were being in, you know, articulated or enforced because of a kind of a case by case that what you what you're describing in terms of just kind of how arbitrary it is, you could say, well going, he said this one time, or he said this another time. And it's true, I think, you know, while he was alive, he did swing a lot, his pendulum swung a lot on different issues, different, even rules and regulations that, you know, by which the center is operated with, because he was, I think himself quite flexible in that, but I think we are sort of witnessing ways in which the organization is kind of ossifying, around around some of those messages and what is actually kind of being and I'll just sort of leave it at that for now. Because I think that that can be come, you know, a whole conversation in itself. Later on. We keep we keep deferring so many conversations, Joe.
Host 1:56:26
Yeah, well, it's a it's a year, multi year long process. This is the combination of and will be a continuation of as well. And I think that, that Yeah, I mean, even even having, as we talked before this interview, even having this conversation is, is I hope that, that listeners that are that are hanging with us this far in the conversation, seeing this as an authoritative discussion or outlay of what they need to believe and what how things really are. That's certainly not my intention, that's never been my intention, it's rather to encourage them to join us on an exploratory and critically minded and faith minded journey to be discovering this and that there are probably things there are certainly things I missing, and not fully understanding and, and so really, we're hoping that a conversation like this is laying the grounds to have more and more conversations online offline among ourselves among yourselves that are listening. And
Jonathan Crowley 1:57:23
my hope is that it really, that engenders more critical examination, and allowances and permissions for that without their without that being a threat. Because I think I experienced that as being considered a threat so much while I was in the organization, you know, I wouldn't be where I am today, without, you know, going to this tradition, I am fully and wholeheartedly established in the path of Dharma because of glenkinchie Yeah, and, and, you know, I carry that sense of gratitude and devotion. And I know that, you know, that may sound a little trite at an old student, because that's, that's sort of the language you were, you know, that, you know, Quickie, students are always using, I'm so grateful, and I have a debt of gratitude, blah, blah, blah. But I really, actually, I authentically feel that even though I'm no longer in the tradition, and, you know, and I, I see, so much of the experiences I have, I see that, you know, there were pieces of this, you know, the acts, you know, the pieces of the organization, I saw myself, let's just say I see the traits of myself that I needed, in some ways, these, an organization like this, I think, for whatever reason, that the, the that that that kind of certitude that we were speaking to, that comes from wanting to belong to such an idealistic tradition. And then also, in some ways, even the arrogance of wanting it to be, you know, the purest and the best and the real, you know, path to liberation. And, and the only one right, you and everyone else everyone else is to quote quote, Jesus, everyone else's doctors are no good, you know, you know, although, you know, I wanted that, right, I wanted that and I and, and I fell into, I think out of my own defilements or my own negativities or my own shortcomings, a need for a kind of a superiority around that as well. And so, you know, unfortunately, I think that's the why though, you know, those pieces were inside me, I think all those seeds were in me in some ways the organization's decisions, gave shelter to that and allow those unfortunately to express and allowed me to kind of also become insulated around all that Um, and, you know, we I'm sure we'll talk more about that. But, you know, I begin, I, at some point, I began a questioning process. And I think when we continue next, I'd love to pick up on how that how that began, you know, as an 80, as, as someone who is, you know, really fully involved, and on many levels, I was not, you know, I was only an assistant, I was only an assistant teacher, I was not a senior or, or full teacher, but I was very involved with the organization on many, many ground heartbreaking projects and, and initiatives within the organization. And, and at some point that, you know, I began to start to question things, and maybe we can just leave that for the next time you pick up there.
Host 2:00:44
So yeah, I think that another way that this modeling takes shape, is that I think Gonca did set a model for this kind of doublespeak where, where one is talking one way to outsiders, and to newcomers, and to those who are starting to practice. And again, I think the, the methodology behind is relatively benign, I think, at least it was in my mind, it was that I don't want to say something that will confuse them. If we talk about these deeper parts of the practice, then that will confuse them and take them astray. And really just just have them being sold on this more straightforward, or digestible message. And then as they start to develop more than these other things can come in. I mean, that was the mindset and how I looked at it. And it made sense, you know, well, it made sense at the time. I mean, I also realized, as I was doing it, there was this doublespeak going on, but it also made sense in this other kind of rationale. But I think what one finds is with the vast corpus of what Kalinka has said, and then with the more internal behaviors of how, how one actually believes how and holds faith, how uncurious oneself, there are these inherent contradictions and there's contradictions on many, many points, you know, there's contradictions on presenting outwardly presenting the practice in this Protestant Buddhism, modern Buddhism kind of format where it's, you know, it's and I understand people out there will say that Goenka was not teaching Buddhism, this is not the time to get into a conversation on that it's more modern Buddhism is a academic term that describes the the way that Goenka was presenting the Buddhist teachings where it was being presented in a more linear, rational, scientific logical method that suited modern day sensibilities. And that was the outward facing practice and yet the inward facing practice is one of belief, belief in rebirth in in supernatural incidences and abilities reminds flying through the air, whatnot, in belief in Saju, began being the next Buddha. So these are examples of beliefs that were held internally, and yet outward facing ways of expression, where vast evidence was found in the corpus of Glinka to support that view.
Jonathan Crowley 2:02:57
Yeah, I mean, I think I want to, I think what you bring up, again, is there's a lot of, there are a lot of pieces here. And I guess I just wanted to sort of summarize and just hope we can really both speak to like how these different parts get sort of conflated in the organization, how its mission itself. is there's a kind of double messaging around that. And then but yet, you know, there there is this overall, the take home message, if you're inside the authorization is that, you know, is that this is, this is the only way, right, that I mean, over and over again, this is the pristine purity pure teachings of the Buddha. And so, you know, I think all that sets up. A, it sets up issues around examining and questioning that I think become problematic, even while the practice may be having benefit, right. And I think, I think what, what you're describing a little bit as also, you know, in order to kind of continue to sort of stay in you find yourself sort of compartmentalizing these pieces. And, and then to some degree, you're, you know, at least for me, and this was a big piece, I found that I was compartmentalised parts of myself. And so I really hope we can dive into that, that process and kind of what what began to kind of allow me to sort of examine that and to kind of unravel it and yeah, so I'm, I'm looking forward to that.
Host 2:04:52
Right. Yeah, absolutely. And this has been a long extended talk here. It's been wonderful and opening up a number of things to explore the next one to me being burned. Man, I mean, this is, for goodness sake. This is insight Myanmar podcast and something like five hours in, we're finally getting to the topic of Burma. So, you know, so that's, so we have our topic next time. And you know, thanks so much for, for breaking into some of these really interesting stuff hard to talk about as well sometimes and you know, thanks for showing up for that.
Jonathan Crowley 2:05:21
Yeah, thank you, Joe. As always, this is a really, it's a pleasure to just have this back and forth and exploration and examination of what you know, of our experiences, you know, with going to this organization I definitely look forward to continue
2:05:37
will be stopped or that they that somebody will be thrown up everybody around me by myself that they will be so fantastic that they arrive at a bar or something that they will be so happy that they got there.
Host 2:05:57
Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. As regular listeners are aware, we often remind our audience about our nonprofit mission better Burma at the end of the show. Truth be told fundraising is hard work. And I can personally attest the fact that it's really no fun to keep asking for contributions. Yet the situation on the ground now in Myanmar so distressing that we continue to do so on behalf of the Burmese people. What is most helpful at this time are recurring donations, which help alleviate both the stress and time involved in fundraising. If you were able to pledge a certain amount per month, our team can plan around having at least a consistent minimum amount to work within each month. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form of currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian immediate missions, aiding those local communities who need post. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission that are Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. That's betterburma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at alokacrafts.com Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's aloka crafts spelled A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.