Transcript: Episode #223: Thinzar Shunlei Yi
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
0:01
He man so why may I send those out? Okay, so what are saying he said yellow, black yellow somehow say he'll you can see what I'm saying
Host 0:27
I'd like to welcome everyone tuning into this episode. Many of you now listening likely have a measure of personal freedom and liberty in your lives, freedoms that the speaker you're about to hear from no longer enjoys. I do not say this to make anyone feel guilty. But to offer a reminder that we are very fortunate to have a degree of agency and safety in our lives that the upcoming guests and everyone else in Myanmar these days can only dream of. So after you hear their story, please consider how you may use your freedom to support or advocate on behalf of the Burmese people. Any action no matter how small counts. Now, let's hear what they have to say. You come to question?
Host 2:22
For this episode of insight, Myanmar podcast, I'm really thrilled that we're joined by Dr. Xu Li, this has been, you have been dressing you are an extremely active person in the movement really, we could say one of the leaders of many different facets of the democratic movement. And there's a lot to talk about with your journey, both as a person as well as the last three years of activism that you've been pursuing. So I'm really thrilled that we have a chance to check in with you and learn about your life and your activism and your perspective on the dramatic changes going on in Myanmar. So thank you for taking the time to join us.
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 3:03
Also, thank you, some of our friends for nominating me to be in this. And thank you for insight Myanmar, for inviting me.
Host 3:13
Right, so let's get into your story. And I think one of the things we try to do on this platform a lot of people might know you or know of your organization's from the multitude of work you've done over the last few years. But on this platform, we kind of like to go to the story behind the story and maybe learn a bit about your life and your background that people who know your current activism might not know about your biography and get a fuller picture. And it's quite an interesting biography because your personal story it touches upon some of the most critical underlying themes that we're seeing playing out in Myanmar today. And and perhaps the unexpected or unlikely journey you've taken to get where you are. So with that in mind, can you start us off and tell us about your early life, your family background and growing up?
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 4:05
So I myself was raised in many different many different towns of the Myanmar because my father was a captain in the military. So we had to move to different places after like two years and two years so I live in many different places in the in the country with my mom and my two siblings. So we will basically like live in Rakhine State for like seven years when I was young and when I know that I'm alive I'm already Rakhine State is really harsh, conditioned in Rakhine in small town, and even like as a military, as some of you may know that military is our is a state within a state right? So they have their own community even in the Rakhine State in a small town. We live in the oscott area You're like really far from the top. So I don't really know how a town look like I never been to a town I never meet or talk, I never met or talk with the people and civilians, I always was raised inside, around soldiers, by the soldiers. And also, in that in our small communities, we have our own school, we have our own hospital, we have our own market, so I don't really have to go out and, and then also in other different units, we also live in our own small society. And also we are trained to be superior, like, I'm always being told, we are different, we are not same like civilians, we are the soldiers, family members. So civilians, we have to take care of them. So we have to take care of them, meaning given us a superior role, that we are the protector, you know, like this, this mindset, and this teaching also goes into the family members. So even a young kid myself, start thinking like I'm superior than the normal civilians. And also there is a hierarchy inside the military, as well, you see the daughter of a major, a daughter of a captain, we all have to listen to the daughter of, you know, the head of the unit. And also the daughters in the sense of the other rank, lower rank, they have to listen to me know, in a way, this is like a hierarchy, a hierarchy of friendship, hierarchical relationship, even within and I realized, is so awkward to be in the middle, because my father was not a high rank. Soldiers and also like, not very low. So I always caught up in the middle of it. And I don't want to treat other people, especially the lower rents, friends, as mine, like as like a junior, or like, also, I don't want to treat other who are in the higher rank to be my superior. So I'm always in the middle and always caught up alone. And I don't I don't want to, you know, associate with the dreamers and stuff. And also, I studied mostly in school, military, school, military High School. And I remember being in a nationalist High School, in more than AI, they have a national school where they taught me a lot about religions, the importance of nationalism, insight, and the importance of protecting race and religions, all the stuff. So I grew up with these military ideologies, I must say. And the thing that changed me I will say, it's not just one event is a gradual change. And also, of course, my willingness to, to ask questions to learn about what's happening, not just in the country, but also in the world. I was a curious kid, I asked a lot of questions. And my father, to be honest, he is like, his, he's quite a different men. Of course, we all were raised in a patriarchal society, especially in the military is patriarchal. But my father himself is so I would say, liberal in a way or raising me, I'm the eldest daughter, but he raised me to be independent, he raised me to be more reliant on myself. And he trust me, he trusted me in me, like when I was young, I remember he led me read Laura books. And he applauded that, oh, my daughter is reading a lot of books. And that gave me confidence. And I felt like I should be reading more books, as well as he trusted me. We're a small business, where my father was like, assigned to a battleground in different places. We were left alone, and he set up a small grocery shop for our income. And then that's grocery shop law. When I was only 20 years old, I had to lead it, because my, my mom was always sick. My mom has asthma and my mom was sick of malaria, you know, because the situation in these AUSkey areas, so that like, so, I also got malaria, too, but, but when I was 12 years old, I had to leave leader, family business like small business, and, and I had to decide everything, I had to decide for the family. And can I do the same for my little brother and sister, I have to take them to school. So I become like, really, I will say independent and I have a lot of confidence in me. And I went to school every day or when my taking care of my sister and brother and I have to take care of my mom as well. And I have to cook for the family have to you know, prepare everything. And that small business also gave me a sense of how to interact with people. Because I have to sell thing. And I also have a bookstore, where we rent the books. You know, in Myanmar, we had a small culture where we, where we buy lowers, when we buy a lot of books, and we try to borrow the books to the people and we charge on the borrow fees. So we have a small book and I have to decide which book I am going to put in my store. So I have to read them. First, I have to reorder the magazine, I have to reorder books types of in a way. Yeah, give me more understanding on what's happening around me, especially around the world, the news about different things. And when I became an AI in university, after my high school, yeah, be like that, as a daughter and a sense of children of the soldiers, we always have to choose civilly and staff jobs. So I decided to go to a university education. And so university education, I will be a high school teacher. And that's, that's a typical job. And and it's an it's there is a guarantee that you go and be, you will be paid well as the government staff, not like a pay pay where like in other corporate society, I never know how other people live in, in corporate life or in other different NGOs, civil society never know that. So I decided to attend the university. So in the university to change, I will say begins because in the university, I met with a lot of other different people. In the university, we have diverse group of people from different sides of stories, and they told me different stories about military. They told me military's radar in the school and radar in their family, the military killed their family members and everything. And I was so shocked, because I never learned that. I know, I just think it is a totally different story to go, my father was, and my the whole background that the whole military is trying to combat the rebels try to combat the bad people, and terrorist. And I never learned the other side of the story, how they are also targeting civilians, and the people, like my friends in the university also were a part of it, were victims of it. And that will really shock and I was, I couldn't accept it. And I was defensive. And I have to learn through along the way from debating from having dialogues from yeah, having conversations with them, then I learned a lot from them. Also, yeah, along the in the university, that time, we had the first ever election in 2010. So I was curious why we had an election, why the elections matter. And we will, like kind of allowed to learn more about democracy. And so I started reading more about democracy for the first time, and it was only a few like little resources around me. So I have to look for it. And there was a internet like booming, we had a small internet cafes and I one day to look for more information, I take me more understanding, and I Oh, yeah, we are going for democracy, let's prepare for it. And then also, I prepare my mentally and physically how to become more democratic, you know, in a way I am. So I will say, having different friends and in the university has opened up my world. And in a way I can build my tolerance, my understanding, and that's where the activism grew out of it.
Host 13:44
I'm curious, in hearing you talk, just wondering about the experience of conditioning. And this is such an interesting word, of course, because there's military and national and propaganda, kind of conditioning conditioning is also a word we hear a lot in the Buddhist sense, which we'll get into later, because I know that that's also a part of your, your life as Buddhist practice. But the conditioning that you're talking about as being a young child born into a military culture, you don't even go to a village, as you say, it's hard for us to imagine just this fully enclosed and insular life inside a military compound. And one can only imagine the kind of conditioning as a young person, even for anyone but for a young person, the kind of conditioning that would shape that reality and the way that you would understand your world from that experience. And then as you move into university, which is outside the compound and with non military people and people that have who become your friends who have been harmed by this military, this the way that they were challenging you this goes beyond an intellectual or a factual challenge. This is like a psychological than an emotional challenge. I mean, this could be a breakdown in terms of trying to rationalize and and comprehend you know what the truth is and what and where you stand within that truth. And so I wonder if you can describe a little bit first just the nature of the conditioning that you had as that young person and how self aware you are and you were at that time, and then when the crack started to emerge out of that conditioning, and you opened up to a more objective reality, what that journey was like and how you got there
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 15:30
that I was only 16 or 15 years old, and I was ready to like expose myself to what's happening around me and I that's also one reason I have to like de myself to get out and get out of the compound. Because I remember I have so many friends like in my high school my high school is also a military high school. So I grew up with so I learned together with the other other kids write other children from other different ranks of soldiers and family members. And that high school is really popular it was like number one in Yangon because so discipline and had a really good reset like every 100% success rate in high school. So so in the high school there are a lot of competition and and really discipline I will say we have to go to the school and around like 730 and we have to pick a grasses we have to pick a trashed so everybody has to be in the same uniform and then and then maybe that's also one reason why everybody's like so in the same sistent and trying trying to become like to finish to finish our high school with our high school and stuff. So in a way that also gave me a minute later on that also give me a like a reflection Oh, our society so militarize, you know, because even that has that high school is really popular and other friends who are not a family member they try so hard to be admitted to the school to the high school. I remember some of the friends of course like for a family member we got a free entry because we are from military so the military High School have to serve us but the other there are other civilians really rich people. They try so hard to be in the high school because so disciplines and blah blah. Anyway so in, in the military in the military. I I'm already like kind of learn more about the other world from my books. When I started opening that bookstore I read a lot about but definitely no politics there were no politic Hi censorship in this in the country that time. So I never learned more learn anything about like democracy forces, how they are organizing on the ground, that Ada generations ADA uprisings, you know, all these like, I learned only from military propagandists. So they are newspaper, all these newspaper, they have their fabricated news. And I just, you know, I just read all the news especially was available to me is all the newspaper that are already sensor. So we have no information about what's happening. But we had that slide of opening in the internet, right internet is there. But also we're not we don't know how to use it. Like there were state censorship on YouTube, Twitter, and all these other important platforms. I remember, we have only access to Facebook, and Facebook is only beginning and there was nothing on it. And there are some Google but you are you don't know how to Google what to Google that's not in your interest. So I don't know about politics. And I nobody's telling me how to become more politics. And but in the university, definitely, I think the only chance that opening you know, the window for us is that I remember I am really interesting speaking and being a public speakers, and you know, I, I will because I was training to become a teacher, so I need to be good at speaking and I need to be influential to the young kids. So that's how I was training. So in the university, there were some computations like impromptu computation, or like, assets computation in English speaking competition, because I study my major in English language teaching so. So in that, I remember in the university, we have to pick up the topics of our discussions and I pick something called voter education, because that time we had a elections coming up in 2010. So we are told that it's important that you have to vote as a citizen. So that's that's an everywhere like the government was telling everybody to vote in 2010. So I feel like Oh, it's my responsibility to vote. But I was not even 18 years old yet that time, so I couldn't vote. But I'm, I feel like I need to learn more about it. And as a teacher, I'm responsible to tell my students what is the voting means and what is the truth as a constitution. So and then I tried to study more about voter education. And I, like choose that topic to give a presentation about voter education, and I submitted to my university that I will be speaking about it and the professor approve it. So I was like, Oh, the prophets are also wanting to know about education. So in the day, on the day, the presentation state arrived, and I was on the stage, and I started explaining the types of the parliament. And we don't have we don't even have a whiteboard, it's a black book, and I have to the university itself is like a bit high school, you know, our university, we have to wear green. And why is so is one of the university that look like university in Myanmar, because we are all supposed to be teacher. So teachers are regarded as, like one of the benefactors of the society. So we are we are trained to become really motors, really, the plane and so on. So I'm going back to the presentation, I was already on the stage and I was started talking about Parliament's, what does it mean parliament and why we have different voting system in the wall. And then I started explaining by writing on a whiteboard on a blackboard, and then the prophets are freaking out in the back of the class. I didn't know it. And then after sometime, like two minutes, the professor just stopped me. She just came up to me saying, Get out. And I was why this is the topic that I proposed and already approved. And she said, No, this is not your what you're supposed to say, just get. So in the in front of like, 100 plus students, I was like, push out. And she's saying, No, this is not what you are what you're supposed to say. And that shocked me. And I felt really ashamed. And everybody was like, like wondering what's going on. And then she carried on to other presentation, I was left alone. And I was like, I was sad. And I don't know what's going on. And then I remember that day, I decided to learn more about voter education, because I ruined to know why my teacher was freaking out. And I thought it was, of course, it's a bit political, but it's in the time where we are supposed to vote. We shouldn't know that. That in a way, I tried to challenge it. But no, I didn't get a chance. So I decided to just become more political because of that. As just a young spirit, you know, like, we want to know, when we're not supposed to do we want to know, to do more. That leads to more discussion in the university that I was leading some political discussion. I went I was, I didn't know more like many things about politics, but I felt like I'm the one who is really courageous, and who dare to do things. So I was trying to, like, unlock many thing. And there are some friends from different ethnic minorities. Of course, they are also really frightened because they felt like it's not, but they join me and in the discussion, and we do we did this kind of discussion. In the canteens. We talked about the base we talked about. Yeah, different, diverse opinion, how to facilitate diverse opinions. Yeah, I mean, just that not not even not even on the ethnic minorities issue just on the general democratic values. And that's not even human rights. At that time. I remember I was thinking, Oh, human rights is another issue that I am not you know, interesting so so it took me another moment other other years to learn more about human rights and how human rights a universal for everyone. So it's like the whole process for me to learn it and learn. Yeah.
Host 24:11
So do you consider that kind of like the start of your life as an activist that kind of accidental explanation of politics that the teacher stopped you the professor's stopped you your explanation and that led to you doing this more in kind of a rebellious youth sort of way? Do you chart that moment? It's kind of the beginning of your activism.
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 24:32
Including that there are also other federal it's not like it's not that easy to become activism Myanmar, I will say because like, when you name yourself activist, you're not even sure like if you are an activist or not, and there's as a strong activist community and you need to associate with them. And you need to get along with them. So this is this is how it was so difficult for me to be a part of the other groups that did Oh, no, me and I received a lot of like, doubts and you know, cautious relationship. I don't know how to say like, they don't ask me at all like in a way they say you are from volunteer society, you are from military society, you are from Burmese society you are from MIT, so you're not with us, you are you are totally in a very privileged position. So I receive a lot of pushback and a lot of exclusion because of it. I mean, especially, of course, exclusion in a way, because I want to be a part of the minorities, right? Activists minority, so I receive exclusion because I want to be a part of minority of course, I'm part of a big society. But I don't want to be with them. You know? Maybe that's also reason, because people push me back a lot like saying, You're a teacher. You're supposed to be a high school teacher. So Indian, my high school teacher was so down, like, in a way, they don't know anything. No, that's not right. I'm a teacher. But I know things. You know. That's also kind of challenge. I'm trying to trying to challenge myself as a teacher I should be knowing politics, international affair two's. Yeah, I don't want to be in that stereotypes is types of teacher. So that's also another thing that I will say, many people push me back. And I feel like no, don't push me back. I'm doing good. I would do it. And I will prove you I'm doing good.
Host 26:31
It sounds like from what you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like as early as 2010. And probably that decade of the transition period, which is also quite interesting, because during the transition period, when there are many opportunities for many people, and especially being part of the more privileged class, the Bomar Buddhist military background, there's even more opportunity. But during this time during during these years, it sounds like you were really striving to show your credentials, show your sensitivity and and and gain access into some of these minority activist communities. Would that be correct to say?
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 27:08
Yeah, I will say now I'm all now I'm a part of the Yeah, it took a lot of time. Right. So I feel like now I'm a part of the oppressed communities. Yeah.
Host 27:19
So what you know, this is also interesting, because after February 1 2021, a whole generation became activists, you know, whatever that word means. And however it's defined, but a whole generation suddenly learned what it meant to resist oppression and tyranny. And that's what we've seen the last three years. But it was a very different kind of person and organization that was doing that before 2021. And especially the kind of people that were doing that during the transition period when I mean, just that name alone, that it's been given as meaning a transition. And it's been argued that it's not really an accurate term, but it infers that it was transitioning to a liberal democracy kind of state. And so the kinds of people that were still pushing and interested in looking at you know, further reforms and and challenging what the either the regime or the NLD was doing at that time, there weren't so many. So, what how would you characterize yourself and your activities during those 2000 10s
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 28:22
It was a slow process for myself a gradual changes like and I look back only 10 years and like last decade Reimann, but I became so many like I became, I became like, from being knowing nothing from the different society not being a power of politics, or a barrel power of the activist community, become an activist, become a human rights defender, and become a civil society actor and become like, you activists, you advocate. And then I protested, I was charged. And now I became, yeah, really revolutionary, sort of. Yeah, it seems only 10 years. But for me, it's like really, really long for me to processes and sometimes people think people just think me in a way Oh, she's from military, like, for example, just one example, right? When I criticize NLT I present NLD because they were doing bad things for the minorities and ethnic groups, and I felt like oh, they should be doing better. I voted for you and you should be doing better. That's why I criticize them. But in a way people people think oh, you're from military family. That's why you will criticize and only like they point you to like justify what I'm saying based on my background say oh, you're from minorities ethnicity, so you don't you are from the majority like Burmese and booty society but when you are criticizing and all the because she's a nationalist, she's from military sides, you know, so in a way, it's so confusing for some people like they don't understand how a person can change how a person can like as well. usually young young people can become really like, progressive along the time. So, and I felt like there is it is possible, like now I'm working with a lot of defenders, like soldiers, former soldiers, and they felt like they are excluded. They're not like when they change their sight, when they change the size, they are now like, in the Democratic side, and they want to become more democratic, they want to become a better person. So in a way, they face a lot of pushback and trust issue. And of course, and I was telling them, trust me, if you are willing to become better, you will be like, because I iPad, I chose that part too. And I walked through, you know, walk through this, I faced a lot of pushback, but I become a part of a society. And, and it's possible, like in the you can gain trust, you know, if you are genuine and honest and sincere, you know, so that's how I've been trying to mentor the other soldiers and family members that are from military sites, you know, to become a better version of themselves. So like, in the past, transition, so called transition, I always say is a fake transition, because looking back self as, like, when I told you my story, right, the 2010 election gave me an opportunity to learn more about democracy and in a way gave me access to different society and idea to like, challenge because the country is also moving in some way. So I need to move allow and give me a lot of opportunities to engage with different people. But I will say, and also does the same thing, different countries and different. The former, you know, transition people say, see, we did it, that's why you are one of the proven example of our society of the transition. Do you know, we train loads of young people like yourself to become better version, and that's why the transition was important that that parts transition was a society and so on. But I, but I argue that but I argue that because what was it worth it? You know, that was the main question. Even though I was a part of it, I felt it was not worth it. Because the past 10 years, have called give us a lot of other different opportunities, saying, Oh, that insane government was trying to open up this society to invite more investment and the phone, you know, phone prices were cheaper, and the internet is coming, you know, everything was there. But I will say enter two times a constitution was the word that like looking back, I felt we even had, we didn't stop the Civil War, the Civil War keep happening. And the genocide even happened in the middle of it. And we lost our democratic forces to to the 2008 constitution, especially the NLD itself is like, trying to become a you know, like, like adjustable, trying to be, they try so hard to fit into those eight constitution, and that the acquisition was not designed for Myanmar and the way we are. So that's why I felt it was not worth it. We had we are so we had so many losses along the way. Of course, we have some gains, but comparing the gains and the losses, the losses are more like that the country even becoming a genocidal country. So I feel like yeah, I feel like there must be there must have been another way, you know, there must have another end, the internet thing or the phone line thing that people like, appreciate things in government saying, Thank you for lowering the price for the phones and the internet. But basically these things is unstoppable. The digital, you know, revolutions, they there is like, internet is already going around around around like, no data can stop it. It's not because they open it up is because it's unstoppable. It's already there. So there are many other things I reflecting on the past 10 years. And I felt like no, it's not worth it, we should have done something better. And okay, now we already have it. So we already had that past transition. And we need to take lessons from it and go forward from it and be better, you know, better version of our own revolution. So this time, I think spring Revolution gave me a lot of hopes because like, Oh, now we are on the right track. In the end, you know?
Host 34:34
Well, so as you were in that transition period, and you were getting more into being a human rights defender in your words, and this also meant calling out not only the NLD, but also calling out the military for its many abuses and you were going from being grown growing up and being conditioned by that military community to question it. And now I'll actively calling them out. So was that psychologically difficult for you to transition to? Not just kind of questioning or talking to close friends behind closed doors about some of your concerns, but actually, in loud voices and public ways, speaking about the military in these harsh terms did did. Were you ever accused of people in the military or your friends or colleagues or family members of betrayal? Or what was that psychological experience? Like?
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 35:32
I remember the first protests that I was leading was in 2010 2012 2012, we had we organized the first public public marching on peace that we call for and off Civil War, and it's on the International Day of Peace. I remember I was the first ever kind of commemoration of the International Day of Peace, September 21. And I was become a part of it. And yeah, I remember, we were protesting for civil war in Chin State, and we were calling the military to start offensive and, you know, in a way, before that, of course, even way before 2012 first public marching, in 2011, in 2010, I have a lot of debates, a lot of, you know, thinking is all like, not kind of challenge, I challenge myself as well, why am I being really sensitive when I heard the are accusing of military? Why I'm defending military? And also, I felt like, why I feel ashamed Wi Fi guilt, you know, so I tried to analyze myself and internally, it's like, internal battle. Yes, that's true. I have to go through a lot of internal battle. And, and that was not new to me. Because when I started reading books, in the books, like when you read a silence, right, but in your head, there's a lot going on, and you think, through the books and the tax. So I used to do that a lot. When I read books, I read for many hours, and I stay silent, and I was processing in my head, what is going on like, and what the story gave me a lesson about, you know, all that. So kind of it kind of it's that kind of training in my head gave me more more rooms for me to have a better insight. So when people accuse of military, I remember, I was defensive first. And the later I feel, I decided to look for information, right? I mean, especially from in person account. So when a person tells me directly, same, my father was Jay. And I felt Oh, you'll find this already in jr. Is he a bad bad guy, like, drag drag person or traffic? Or? No, oh, no, not all the people in prison are bad people. And like, why? Me? No, we are political prisoner. And I like that there is a word called political prisoner. And, yeah, and that friends telling you how their families live in and how isn't it was so personal, so emotional, and I trust that person, I don't even need to look for like more information. And I realize that is happening. And that even one one events gave me more thinking, and I can imagine how it will be based on that little stories, you know, the reason why they were persecuted, the reason why the families are living in fear, the reason why civilians always submit to us, you know, that all makes sense, when I know that, like when I went out in the public, in the small town, civilians were just gave an immediate, like, priority to me, just because I'm a daughter of soldiers, you know, my father show up with a military car, and then we went to a public clinic, and that everybody would just give way to arrest everybody. And I feel like this is, Oh, I feel like oh, this is because military is doing great thing. That's why they gave respect. But it's always be a fear, you know? Okay, me, that made them give me a reason. Oh, that makes like, that makes sense that why people are reacting that way. They may or may not know why they're reacting that way that that could be fear. That could be respect, I don't know. But fear could be a big thing, you know. So in a way that is also I process myself and I try to make sense of what is happening and I and I felt like oh, I always consumed the news from one side only. Or I need to be fair, so I need to learn from other sides in a way. I open up myself and I don't take the personnel like oh, they're not talking about me. They are talking about the whole institution, the whole institution, me. So try to divide into different pieces. And I want to become a civil society, a diverse civil society role. Like I really like the concept behind civil society is like, they try Do check and balance those in power. So check and balance those in power, regardless of who they are, like they could be those in power could be your father, those in power could be your mother could be your relative doesn't matter, whatever, whoever in power position should be held accountable. So that concept, give me a sense, oh, if my father is doing bad thing, I need to hold him accountable. If people arrest him for what he did, I should be happy, like, oh, the rule of law is working. You know, this kind of myself gave me freedom. And like, I don't have any attachment to anything. It should more on principle more not because not personal. Not. It's not just about me, too. It's about what I believe. So that kind of lead up to other things. So I felt like as someone who was raised inside military, as someone who know more about military should be speaking out the military more. So that's my, that's my reason. And I feel like we should be doing more. And I felt like that military was doing so many bad things. And I feel really bad. And I felt I should be doing more I should be taking more risks. And the same thing with the Burmese people, the bombings, you know, there is a nominalization that different minorities have pointed out there is a harmonization system. And I felt like Yes, as a barman myself, I should be speaking out more about it against it. And I and I also surprise why people don't do that, you know, like, especially for the majority ethnicity. While they don't stop what the majority is doing, you know, that I can understand it. And I even today, I I'm like I find really, myself, even in the revolution, I was trying to mobilize other soldiers, family like soldiers, daughter and son to be more active more like public figure and speaking out against the military, but I don't see many others. Yeah, I mean, there should be more of more of a people from the military side, speaking out about military palpitations. So only the soldiers are doing now like the, like former soldiers, the defenders, and I support them to speak up more about military penetrations. But what about family members? I want, like the children, they have power over their parents, actually, if they, if they kind of, yeah, tell their parents to stop doing things. I think that will work. And I was mobilizing for it. But I don't see a lot of other people, you know, doing that. Yeah.
Host 42:43
That's really powerful. I mean, it's really a powerful imagery you give of just the nature of privilege and how privilege exists in Myanmar, but then also just transcending even Myanmar and just thinking about what privilege is in the world and what it's like to hold and what it's like to be on either side of it. And your life in the 2000 10s are an example of your own, confronting your own privilege and understanding and then confronting and trying to overcome your own privilege. And that was something that was really rare to do, I think, for a bar person before 2021, especially when, in 2010, when there were these opportunities that were taking place, and people were taking advantage of them. After 2021 We did see especially in immediately in the weeks and months after we did hear a lot of Gen Z Bomar really issuing these public apologies and taking stock of how they had been part. Although they hadn't personally done it. They had been part of a majority that had perpetuated atrocities on people throughout the country. And it was this kind of coming to terms with that reality and trying to understand it. And you know, so much of what you're talking about in your own journey, which really predates what many other people would go through after the coup. And certainly what many people have gone through in the last few years. It one can't help but be reminded of what happened in my country in the United States with the Black Lives Matter protest. And this several years ago, this there was this kind of mass taking stock of, of white privilege and white fragility and and systematic racism and looking at what that meant on a societal level in many people in many privileged people in the white majority in America, looking at privilege and their own privilege in a way that they never had before. And, and so I wonder if, to what degree you were following what because you talk about how the degree to which you try to follow stories around the world and development and such and I wonder to what degree you were following and aware of what was going on in the wake of the These BLM protests and the movement in America George Floyd and everything, the the kind of introspection of privilege that was taking place here. And to what degree you see that similarities or differences or divergences with the Bomar majority in, in, in Myanmar, trying to take stock of their own Bomar privilege and try to understand that because this is, we do have to say, this is not an easy thing. This is this is something, anyone who has any kind of privilege of any kind and is taking steps to confront it and understand it, it's very painful, it's very delicate, it's very vulnerable. So I think that really has to be said, it's not as easy as snapping your fingers. There's a reason why people don't want to do this, you know, it's, it's hard. And there's a lot of reason to want to avoid this, it's painful to have to do that. I
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 45:49
remember one of the Black Lives Matters, events, and then protest, you know, happening around the world. And in the United States. We also like as a, as a Burmese civil society, we also send a letter to the US government saying, we don't agree, and we don't you know, when we felt like we knew too well about the oppressed, how the privilege play out and how the oppressed community suffered through all the systems and we want you to do better, you know, we tried to send a letter and people were joking, like, oh, who are you to send a letter to the United States? We feel like why not? You know, we are all Yeah, yeah. Why not? Like even we are a small country always been supported by the United States government. We always think United States, US government is our benefactor, you know, all the time. So who are you to send letters? So I remember that, and I, yeah, because I feel it's important to show solidarity with people. And because we believe in people power where people extend together, and we can change things, basically, that our own governments, you know, so in a way, we also draw attention from this letter of what's happening in Myanmar. I mean, especially the majority minority and that time, there was a Rohingya, you know, crisis happening. So we tried to raise awareness in Burma communities, and it was so hard. I remember. We don't really say the word Rohingya, when, in 2017 and way before that, and also myself, I was not an exception. You know, I was raised inside military. I learned about Rohingya in military and it was all bad thing saying, Oh, the Muslim people invading the country and the other Muslim countries are supporting it, because they want to invade. They want to spread Islam, you know, in the country, we are a Buddhist country, so we need to protect it. So very typical understanding that I had and I never had a Muslim friend in my life, to be honest, like, in all my high school, they were only Burmese and boorish. They are all Burmese and boorish didn't No one from ethnic minorities or from different religious minority. So, I know I don't know how Muslim LIFFE i No idea. I have no idea and I don't know what when people accuse them or something, there is nobody explaining as bad or like combat the narrative and such cetera. So and I always have that reservation, to be honest, because I'm a reflective person. I felt like, Okay, I'm learning only from one side, but what about for themselves? What do you want? What do we want to say, you know, so I have that reservation all the time. I remember I had like, 5%, I don't know 5% reservation that I already keep it for the that they own, like the own people to explain me, you know. So in a way that is leading to when I met with Muslim people, I asked the questions, and I become friends with them. And I and I also become friends with Rohingya woman or oranges, brothers, and you know, and try to ask all these questions that I always get and had in my mind, they explain me things and that gave me more sense, okay. Things what was on the news or was on the newspaper might not be always true, gave me more like more balanced thoughts around that. So in that black lives matter times, the Rohingya crisis, we decided to organize public forum, first ever public forum in September 16. I remember right, a week after the August 25 of 2017. And I decided to organize it and it was called under 30 dialogue. So I was only 27 that time and I organizers only enter 30 speakers. So we're trying to raise awareness about what's happening not just in Myanmar, but also internationally. All these front front That Atari dialog, it became, I became more hopeful because I was so depressed when that happened, I don't know what to do. And I feel alone. And when I speak up, I will be excluded. And I were not already excluded. So I organized like minded people to speak in the same panel, and we live stream it, we live streamed up, and and there were kind of a young people or young people from different sides from the Rakhine community came in and they explain the Osiris stories. And that gave me hope that I can be helpful with the young generation, the young generation have a lot of intolerance, a lot of understanding, and they are really suspicious with what's happening. They are critical, they're critical with the NLD they are critical with military propaganda, they don't trust news. So they always try to check with the ground and they always trying to be, you know, mindful of what's happening. So that gave me more power. And I feel like, I'm not alone. I can speak up about it, you know, because there is a, I have my community. Like, they may not support me all the time, but they are the people that I can trust that our generations already have a, you know, change in my set. So I started speaking out because I feel like that's, that's our generation. So But then, of course, the young people voices always and hard, right. They're not proud ties, even though we had that kind of panel bit webinar on Rohingya crisis, known media pick it up, right, no media pick it up. No. No news get out of the country saying young people have a different idea. So I decided to just talk to a writers job journalist. And then writers also features our voices. And because of that writers news, I got a lot of pushback inside the military inside the inside Myanmar, from military for NLD for all sorts of communities, because I said, Because I said, I don't trust this leadership anymore, you know, in a way that is so that's that's a hardship that young generation had to face. And many young people seeing me and other friends being pushed out and being like, how to say political assassination, you know, kaleida assassination, there is havior in the Myanmar culture, where when they don't like people, they just assassinate the character and they will just spread that rumor saying, oh, surely Sankara, for example, you know, Mao sanka, is also a part of us. And then he was also very much like, criticized by the Burmese people same. For me, if my for my for my case, they say I'm from military background, so I'm criticizing the NLD. And so we can trust her. She's supported by different a Muslim, Muslim country, and she has a Muslim boyfriend. That's why she stayed to try to make a fairy stories and these new come from NLD supporter like, really been supporter. So I was surprised. And that's a reality of the situation on the ground, you know. So in a way, after that, I decided to start talking about privilege and power. So I still have that curriculum that I set out, based on different curriculum that is already available. And I started speaking on that privilege and power and I have trained like, around 1000 students and young people across the whole country, from the chin stay to the main diary straight to Rakhine State, you know, I was speaking about it in different events I was invited to since 2019. So in the whole COVID period, that was my main topic, I was speaking about privilege and power, how we should be aware of our own privilege, not abuse it not use it, not misuse it, you know, against the other, but use it better, in a way a better way. And I stay speak about that issues in different trainings. And
Host 54:06
so you were doing these kinds of trainings and bringing this kind of awareness, fostering this kind of thinking, long before the coup and then after the coup as well. And so this is a good time to talk about some of the changes that happened after 2021. But I'm wondering about the receptivity that you felt when you were giving these trainings and working with young people. Did you notice a difference in terms of how receptive or how open or how willing participants were to learn this before versus after the coup?
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 54:40
I would say like, just give an example. I'm just giving an example. I was working with a lot of grassroot communities since 2016, as well with my organization ACD. So we have a 14 different networks. So I have to travel to the one after another given trainings and having assessments with them and You know, speaking to the villagers and I work with village track leaders to four villages for the administration reform in the past five years. So when I remember I was trying to make a test, I want to, I want to test the community. So what I was doing in the middle of the small town in Maguey, regions Maguey SOPA, my central area, right so Burmese. So my centrists, and I started talking about Rohingya in one of those villages. And I was explaining Rohingya in the middle of it, like out of my agenda. And I, and they all were looking at me, and they say, is a completely new topic for them. So they know that reinjure is bad thing about and you know, they know that but they listen to me because I'm not a Rohingya. I'm not a Muslim person. I'm a Burmese just like them. I'm a young woman, and they are there they so they don't have any doubts. So I'm imagine if a person looked like a Muslim person speaking about Rohingya, they will not believe in that they will not like immediately react to me. But when a Burmese person speaking or explaining about Rohingya in other side of the country, they were like, surprised, and they learn they listened the whole time. That was I remember, it was in the middle of 2018 and stuff, you know, it was so intense, but I decided to train and try to test my you know, test the limit in on the ground, but then they were like listening to me, and they know that they respected me for my word that I've been doing with them in the past as well. So they were like, just listen to me. And they were like, Oh, really? Oh, we never know that you know, in a way they have a sense of Rohingya they kind of family to the name but from my way of telling the stories they get a new like a concept and nothing happen out of it you know, nothing happened they would they just listen me just like they listen to me other topics. So often like it is possible, it is possible to tray on the ground is possible to speak about this issue. It just that in my in our mind that we censor ourselves, we say case sensitive, don't say, you know, I organized that webinar right after the Ranger, August 25. Right. That will be now I live I broke asset. I broke a startup. But nothing happened or have nobody sue me nobody like even though the junta I'm in the, the previous government, right? They didn't know that I was speaking about it. And but no Polit no legal actions afterwards, you know, no, of course, I got a social exclusion based on this and that, but I also felt like there is a space for us to raise different opinions, especially when you are not minority, like my minority. So that gave me more confidence. And I started speaking up for other different minorities to go I have more like, like, I don't know, I have more like a protective mechanisms for people like me, people like ourself as a Burmese and bhootish, I would say, compared to the other minorities, minority, so. So these are the things that layout in these times. So I would say the young generation, when I speak about all these difficult topics, they have better tolerance, and they are willing to learn and just like, just like when I was young, I have an open heart that I will learn from both sides, and I will decide myself, but the decisions are me. So the same thing with the young people, they were discipled that they will just follow me through whatever I'm saying, you know, they don't blindly follow me. They just assess themselves and they will listen to me. But that does not mean that they will just blindly follow me. So the young generation is awakened, as you said, it's all like now becoming more activist more cautious, especially with the politicians and old people. But of course, they have their own thinking pattern. They're more logics now, like critical thinking is better. I think in this generation, in a way, I think that narratives will change. Sooner or later. Yeah.
Host 59:04
So how have you seen Bomar ethnic relations change over the last 10 years, and especially the looking before and after the coup, because so much of your work was to try to build these bridges of understanding and dialogue communication. And I really appreciate what when you talked about this, the challenges of this character assassination, political assassination. And I think that dialogue is so important. It's so important to be able to sit down at the table with people who we disagree with. And even in my country, America, this is a problem. This is a huge problem we're having right now with people with different ideas just aren't talking to each other. They're talking to their bases. But I think that's the really the central nature of what this whole platform this podcast is supposed to be is having the power and the miracle and the beauty of communication. You know, when it really happens when you're really able to sit down and communicate and so much of your work has been trying to to build these bridges have not like superficial sugarcoated kind of kind of dialogue or harmony but you know, really getting down to the basics of connecting and talking and learn about each other sharing different opinions and perspectives that might not exactly match, you know, that might be coming from, from from very different quarters. And that's okay, it's okay to have those and sit down and to be able to learn. And so over the course of these last 10 years, and especially before and after the coup, how would you describe what you've seen of the state of these Bomar ethnic relations that you've been such an activist and trying to improve and work towards?
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 1:00:41
Oh, obviously, that's one of the that's one of the may profit, I would say profit political profits that we get out of this whole thing. And use, you know, like, people say, what is our end result, of course, it's important that we focus on the end result, but also is important that we also recognized what we got along the way, in the process, the process is also very important. So now we are still in the process, the end result will be there soon. But along the process, I feel like we are on the right track, meaning that we have more chances to learn more about each other. So and also reflect on myself Oh, I never been to can you control area in the past? I know can you I know Karen people and I know like so many friends and cetera but I never been to any any of their can you control area or the ethnic regions, you know, the very control like at an ends control areas, I've been to many different states and read a bit more in the Burma control, like, you know, the government control area. So, but now we are all pushed to go. I would say we are forced to flee right to different jungles or different places. Even the NLD themselves, right there was so I was saying, there were so proud of their own reset of the 2020 elections, 2015 elections, but now they are forced to go into a you know, very deep layer of the ethnic struggle and Athenaeus sacrifices what they have going through, and we have to experience it even if we like it or not now, we all are equally refugees, we are all equally stateless, in a way, give us more chances to open up our heart and trying to invest trying to address that, I think is I think it's a law of nature. Because like for example, I felt, I don't know, I felt like when the whole whole country, the whole, the whole war is so polluting, then the COVID happen where we are forced to stay home and not use, you know, the the eagle the airplane. And so in a way that happened to us, you know, where everyone or the Burmese are now going to learn more about the ethnic minority struggle. And even though we now take support from the Rohingya community, you know, even the NUJ itself has now the first ever Ranger minister. And because of the Rohingya issue, they get more leverage, they get more, you know, a credibility and refutations and you know, so it's so yeah, it's so funny at the same time. So yeah, within three years, many things happened. Yeah, I mean, that could be quit, you know, if we are willing to, it could be quit that gave me that also made me sad. Like in the past tenure, we are wasting our time, we waste a lot of time that we try and we can be come closer to the ethnic minority, we can become closest to the oppressed community, or we can be better, you know, but we are wasting our time. Seeing you are in the power position, you're not in the policy, in a way, we exclude each other. We don't talk to each other. And the political system, also Dubai as a political system designed to become just you and the military. So like the NLD, or the military, the people were forced to vote only went out of it. And people voted only NLT and that totally exclude and, you know, undermine the other different ethnic struggle in each different states and region, saying we need only one central body. No, we needed a federal democracy, like where we have our own division or resources and division of power. So now we are forced to be talking about federalism, you know, because of the coup. Me I didn't want us to become more like united in a way and our federal democracy. He did he did. He said, I will organize the election again. Don't worry, I will do it. You know. He said, I'm still on that democratic part and stay willing to become a fairer democracy. But now it's too late. Like people already decided, okay, we abandon you, and we're going to talk about our own I struggle and now we start talking about a new CC right federal democracy charter. So definitely that kind of that you know, that block right that flow we tend to block into more our opportunity. So, that is the revolutions in the revolutions we are now more receptive to more different thoughts and idea and Burmese, very Burmese oven Burmese, they have to learn more about the ethnic struggle, they have to respect the different culture. They have to obey the orders from the you know, addenda leaders in a way now at the new leader get more leadership positions, you know, and UCC and ug, you you can see when the one can you person speak everybody silent. Everybody, silence, everybody listen to them carefully, because they respect them now. So I can feel and see that changes in a way. And I think, yeah, we have a lot to learn from each other. Like when we talk about federalism, we don't even need to look around the other country more we already have an insight. When we talk about resilience, we already have an insight as learn adapt, in a way. Yeah. So it's on the right track. That's how I feel better than the past 10 years. Yeah.
Host 1:06:15
That's really interesting. And as you were talking, I was, I was remembering this anecdote in this book I read years ago, I was trying to recall it. And then I remembered the book was actually it was about Burma. It was a it's called the road to Mandalay. And it was written by a British soldier that was in Burma during World War Two. And he's just describing his experience. And there was one anecdote in that book, I always remembered, I thought was curious, where he was talking about all the I don't remember what the activity was, but something that his division was having to do. And like the, you know, bridges they were having to build or the supply trains, they had to work out some massive human operation that was just kind of insanely complicated and dangerous, but they pulled it off effectively. And he just had kind of a comment, like, you know, when you're, you know, can you imagine if during peacetime, and during like a common stable part of Arab society, that you were able to harness the same kind of focus and attention as you can when there's conflict. And he was just kind of remarking like when there's this mobilization, and this urgency that takes place when some kind of instance of instability or conflict takes place, that sometimes during peacetime, you don't really, or when things are just kind of calm, you sink into privilege and comfort and familiarity and cliques and everything else, and somehow when your backs are against the wall, and when you're there's something about the human spirit, where when you're facing a much more dangerous situation than then than just your relaxed life, it brings something different out in you. And I was remembering that as you said that.
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 1:07:56
Yeah, it was actually it's hard to tell, but I would I'm just thinking now, like, can we do better when we are in a more stable situations like work?
Host 1:08:06
Right, right.
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 1:08:08
I was doing the same thing, basically, in the past 10 years, right?
Host 1:08:11
You were,
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 1:08:12
I was protesting. I was speaking to different media, speaking at conferences, I was organizing a TV channel to be on you know, all these webinars, I even did a performance art, you know, I have done so many atavism, finding way trying, trying to like reach out to better like different communities of course in a stable community stable environment that gave us more chances more more space. But the lever or learning the level of adaptation, the level of change my slope, and I'm what is the different right? I think it's not about in an unstable situation or stable situation is about political system, which political system are you in? So if if your political system is in authoritarians or like under $2, a constitution even though your space you fell out, you can travel around, but you won't see much change because there is the political system already embedded, deeply normalized, you can change things even though you know, you mobilize people to protest against it. In the end, you will be crackdown, you will be labeled as a bad people because you're protesting against the civilian government on Sensoji and etc. And you will always push back and it's like, you are hidden against a very big world. So that political system is like that. So if you're, even though you are in an unstable situation, you're always running, hiding, but when you have the liberty to speak your mind, when you have that, I will say possibilities that how you can become then you are you are you were trying more to become better version or you were trying more to be, you know, to be in where you are supposed to be So I think it's a mix. I don't say which one is better, but I was all about the political system you are in. So in the past 10 years, I try to do many things because I have more freedom to like, go around. It's not like an 8088. Right. I mean, I can go around, I can speak about human rights democracy. But I also did a public hearing in Parliament, I organized the first ever public hearing in the parliament in 2016. When the NLD government came in, I brought in like, villagers, villagers to speak to the general sitting in the parliament to speak to the parliament members and talk about village problems and ministration reform how to change the law. And I came up with the table of, you know, law table, to a man and etc. That was a biggest, like, advocates that I did. But I realized even though I advocate from different perspectives, different ways to change the law, this law cannot be changed as we want it, because there is $2 a constitution already assigned which power should go away, and which law should be how, you know, everything is already written, everything's all like constructed. So you can really change you can change a bit, just one warning to warning, that's it. So I was so upset about it like, and I also did a vocation or new policy deployment, I was a youth advocate and youth leader and then in the past, and I was really heavy on the EU policy development, we organize the first ever national forum or EU policy, we had an MOU forums and we invite like 700 young people from different all around different states and regions to come together gather and talk about EU policy. And we advocate directly to different ministry in the parliament, like in the in the cabinet in NATO. And we had a first ever EU policy in 2019. But then even way before we approve the EU policy, I realized, oh shit, like mean this EU policy where we enter there against our own principle like this EU policy should be and a young, young people leadership but no, because of the 2008 constitution, this new policy under the Ministry of Social Welfare to social welfare minister will be chairing the EU committees know why. So because of the 2008 constitution, wherever you are trying to hit on is always fought back, because it's like a glass ceiling, you know, that you can never break. So I will say, and I decided I was so depressed that I was a random I even boycotted the 2020 election, I didn't go I didn't go and vote. And the polling station, were just right in front of me in on my chest, and I don't go and I was the whole day, I was like Benny, myself, I was like, really battling with frustration, confusion and depression. Because I felt like we are forced to choose only one party and that party is an Aldi. And nnd was not good, and energy will become bigger and bigger, will be more bearish. Blimey, who's the worst that I fell nicely, not safe anymore. And I didn't vote. So mean leading up to it. So the cool was kind of setting up a new skill where we can chain that become a better one. So we use that as an opportunity to like, so we can never be the same again, you know, in a way, I mean, we are heading towards like, it's not just on me, right? It's everybody's responsibility to shape it, but we don't know where we will end it. But the one thing that we can say will never be the same again, will never be the same, like in 2021. So that's, that's something we get out of this whole process is so painful, but at least we are going for a better political systems. And I also remember I was criticized a lot because I was talking about I want a social democratic political system. I said in 2090 Yeah, a lot of people were pushing back on that but whenever we are trying for a better change of a political system where they are more accountability, gesture and human rights and democracy that values you know, prevail. So it's about political system, it's not about how safe you are you know, if the political system back even though you are physically say you can never be free. So, yeah.
Host 1:14:34
That's remarkable to hear. And it's you know, so often the story that gets told is this. Myanmar coming out of this darkness. Obama himself coming to talking about the the clenched hand that is extended, that brings it into the light and then hearing about the coup is this kind of destruction of the dreams of so many and this is such a different version of this familiar story that you're telling Lean that is actually exciting and motivating where the this terrible action that men on long takes is actually in your perspective and how you're seeing it is actually providing this opportunity that would not have been there otherwise of the NLD itself becoming this somewhat liberal institution that is monopolizing in a different way than the regime, of course, but also not leaving a lot of open civic space. So that's, that's really amazing to hear. And I want to fill in, where where we've come from, and where we're going to, by bringing in another thread that a completely different thread that I think that once we start to examine, we'll start to see where this gets inter woven and linked with some of these other elements of Burmese society that we're discussing. And that's Buddhism and the Sangha. And first, before we get into looking at what is the state of Buddhism and the monk lay relations today, how was the COO change that if we can get personal again, and I know that that that your family was Buddhist, you grew up Buddhist, that the Buddhist teachings are still important to you? I understand. But can you start just personally speaking and describing the nature of how Buddhism was manifested in your home, and what type of Buddhism you grew up in and your family home?
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 1:16:28
I was born into a British Buddhist family. So my, my mom, my dad, the whole family is all boorish. And so I became a Buddhist. And I was, I remember, from the books that I was reading this is kind of gave me a sense that I need to know what I'm doing. Like, I need to really know what I'm doing now. Because you are you are going to that, that you become Buddhists, and then you just go along with us. That's, that's really lazy, kind of doing things. So I tried to learn more about Buddhism, because I want to know what I'm doing when I have to pray every day. And what is that. And so when I was 16, I remember I went alone to the beat Amok course in su laevigata. So in solid red, they offer different free classes in in different school and different Yeah, monastery, they offer that. So I was thinking of learning a beat Amar first, to learn more about Buddhism, the very basic stuff, and 16th, nobody follows me, but I want myself and I was alone. And I was the only youngest, you know, student in the whole class, I find it really interesting there was so I would say, eyes opening. And that got loads of like, make make me it has a lot of logic and like, rationale. But still, of course, there are some things that I can think I had, like so, so so many higher thinking, you know, that I have to digest on it, but I found it more closer to the Buddhism. And since then, I started reading a lot about from the Obama point of view and gave me more opportunity to discuss this with a teacher, I asked a lot of questions. And then the teachers tried to answer me different things. And yeah, I tried to look for some of the answer. Like, when I was young, like how life started. What how long is that? So that's, like, very busy I question of it, you know, sure. And I try to look for in different books, and as a lot of questions to different people. And I don't get the answer. But there was one. Yeah, one book I found and explained me were about like, how it's a waste of time that you shouldn't think that you have to focus in present and you know, so in a way, that also gave me a sense sometimes when you think very complicated things and takes your time, but you have to focus in the presence of, you know, in a way that you will understand in a way based on your practice. So they give us more sense of how to practice more. So I would say is to wearable reasons, right? And stay a learning process. Even in the tail, there's a lot to learn. And so, but when I became an activist, I would say, um, I learned about how to become more independent. Because when you are an activist you are you're, you meet with a lot of different minorities and different ethnic groups and different religious groups. And then when you identify yourself, I'm a strong Buddhist or I'm a Buddhist and gives you more like, I don't want to tie myself with just one religions. I would like to know about other different things too, and I decided to open up myself to learn about other different religions. So I learned about like from my friends, so I don't become like extreme Buddhism, because in Myanmar, you see, Buddhism is kind of labor with the extreme nationalism, right? So especially with the Mahabharata. So it kind of gave us the young generation feel like it's kind of a shameful thing even to say we are bullied because the Buddhist, Myanmar, like, already portray, like nationalism, way of doing things and whoever you talk to, especially older generation, they will say the same key, same key like Mahabharata, right? Yeah, my parents, my mom was really dedicated, devoted, you know, Buddhism, Buddhist person, and my dad as well. My dad's a bit liberal, but my mom is really like, kind of really focus on Buddhism. And, and when I became an activist, I can't even talk to parents like in a normal way anymore, because when I only I remember, I had a big argument with my mom, about Rohingya. I was saying, Well, how we should be empathetic, sympathetic to our Rohingya and the Muslim minorities. And then she was saying things like, No, our teachers to us. No, you, you know, these Rohingya and this move Muslim, they are our enemy. In a way, I was combating with a big arguments. No, our Buddha told us to love everybody, you know, it is no exception. While you're doing this, and we had a big argument, I even cry with this, you know, like, I feel like why Ranger people are so hated even in the, you know, loving mother that I know. Right? Mother were brainwashed that way. And that made me sad. And I tried to explain her and she felt like, Oh, you are such a saint, like she were in a circus the way she was saying. But I still, and I stay like argue with a lot of law with my parents, my grandparents, you know, I still have a lot of arguments. And I felt like oh, it's a lot a lot to work on, you know, to change the mind. And I decided okay, maybe not change the older people's mind, maybe younger people we can stay be hopeful. So yeah, with that, now, I I kind of still think the Buddhism philosophy in a way to rely on yourself to be more like sovereignly self awareness, you know, that critical mindsets, all from the Buddhism and teaching that I learned from, and I don't see Buddhism as a religion anymore is more like a way of living, you know? In a way, I tried to adapt that Buddhism philosophy into my way of living to be more compassionate, to think before I speak. And yeah, to be more fair and square in whatever I'm doing, and to be consistent with what I'm doing. Yeah, so it's an internal work every day. If, even though there are a lot of criticism and hatred towards what I'm doing, I have to be conscious with what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. You know, I, I'm the only person who knows what I'm doing good and bad. So myself accountable does ideology based on prisons, I have to, I have to reflect on myself, I have to criticize myself first. I have to train myself even the way of thinking I have to train myself. So it's my work and nobody else work. And even though people hate me, if I if I know what I'm doing is okay. Even though people love me, even though I'm doing badly myself, I know myself and that's okay, you know, so in a way I'm more more like a focus on myself, my own consciousness, and that integrity that I'm building on myself, it just Oh, me. So it's it become really an intact? I mean, kind of how do you say you stand strong on your own ground, despite all the different longer than eight days longer than ship, ah, you know, they're bad things happening to you. And good things happening to you is, it's a life, it's like their ups and downs, but you stay on and you stay intact. I mean, stay on your own ground. So that's, that's also related to my political principles, I stay the same, you know, there are a lot of clouds or claps or hate or criticism, but you stay on your own principle. You
Host 1:24:19
say, as you went to investigate what this Buddhism is, you want to learn it for yourself and not just be who you are, because you were you grew up that way. And then you just do it in questioning. And that's, that seems to be a familiar thread throughout your story is this streak of independence, critical thinking, wanting to digest and understand something yourself. And you do that with Buddhism. So you talked about how Abbe Dhamma was something that became very important to you taking it down the classes learning Abbe Dharma, of course, there are many Buddhist countries in the world. But in Myanmar, Abbe Dhamma, is more important and stressed with greater priority and importance than most other Buddhist countries. It's held in very high regard. There and has been so since at least lady say it as time. And so I'm I'm wondering first of all, just as you explored and and ventured into ABI Dhamma study, and that became your vehicle for understanding the Buddhist teachings. First just a curiosity about what what was it about ABI Dhamma that fascinated you? And actually, maybe you should explain for non Buddhist audience, what is the Dhamma? What is it? And what what about the AVI Dhamma spoke to you and was was meaningful and important to you? And in your your life, your personhood, your activism? And then, aside from Abbe Dhamma, were there other Buddhist practices that you took on? Did you did you go to meditation courses? Was there a monk you started to follow or listening to or a nun and started to listen to discourses? Or did you take up a passion in a certain kind of tradition, so just learning a bit more about the type of Buddhist practice that you came to take on?
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 1:26:01
It's, it's a, I think it's a mix of learning from the books, learning from the teacher and also your own practices as well, I think. So, in Myanmar, we used to parallel learning, you know, so, in the schools in different curriculums, we are trained to just read and memorize it, and you know, use it and in a way, I see a lot of other people in Biederman courses, because it's good to attend these kinds of courses, but they just memorize everything and not internalize it, not reflecting on it. And then yeah, you know, it's really hard to tell, who really learn and who really don't, you know, does not depend on how many light marks you get in your exam and such. So, I found myself I think the mix is a mix of both learning from books and learning from teacher and learning from my own practices, in a way, kind of when I was younger, since I think 14 years old, my mom was always in a monastery, she took us to a monastery. So I've been learning from different different aborts, and Seattle, and they will teach him but mostly it was once one sided, you know, like just one way teaching. So we have to just listen to it. But I started questions. And I remember I was writing some of the questions and I and I give that letter to the, to the CRO. So in the next round, she he tried to, he tried to explain my questions, you know, kind of way, like there is a way to communicate directly to the CRO CRO explain my confusion in his teaching in a way. So I think it's better to just attend the classes. So I went to the PETA my classes, and I also go to went to meditation center every thegem Ibri you know, April, we learn some holidays, five days, 10 days, and I always want to the meditation centers and I tried to find meditation centers, because different meditation center have different wheel practices, different teaching you and different ways of doing things. So I was learning from different meditation centers, how they're doing things, and I realize they have, you know, even in Buddhism in a bita, Ma, and even Buddhism and here, where are we have different way of doing things. That gave me a sense that it is okay to be different. And even, you can try. So that gave me more freedom. And in a way I can, I can also do my own things like, but the most important thing is this, this, the to the teacher and the philosophy. So as long as you're not deviating from this philosophy and the principal, you can do your thing. I always felt like oh, meditation is just you just you sit there silently for an hour. That's it. But different meditation center, give me a sense, it's okay, you can walk, you can be walking, you can stay be conscious of what you're doing, you can still be meditating. And even more sleeping like on the bat, you just lay down and you can still be meditate. It's not just one poster. But in in Myanmar is so common that meditation is just use it in silently you want to room thing is it's also important that you give yourself your yourself some time and space for yourself and s'stijl. And it's also very important thing to focus. But I think there are also other way and myself I'm a very active person I am, you know, a hyperactive so it's hard to how to just keep myself you know, and so for now, it's like a torture, I think for many people like myself, late that you know, so. But there are other way of doing things and that a lot of my understanding of Buddhism. So I become more cautious in what I'm doing every day. So I train every day, every day of my life before I do things. I try to be cautious. I Trying to be No, no, no of what I'm doing. Every seconds is still very hard to you know, sometimes we lost ourselves in our train of thoughts and with different events influence, but, but you have to know that Oh, that is influencing me. And when you are angry, you immediately know Oh, I'm angry. That awareness just stop you just stop you from being angry. And then when you just focus on being angry, that angry just disappear, that anger just disappear. So that's how I've been really trying to trying to train my emotions to be more I'm not overly influenced by my emotions. So I think we should be better than our emotions, right? We should be smarter than our emotions. So emotions, emotions can drive you crazy, especially in times of crisis in time. Oh, all these feeling we have to train ourselves with our you know, how to train our emotions. And so I think that's what kind of betta Ma has gave me more awareness, especially we have different different mind, right different mind, even though there is also the spirits that you, you, you kind of, you know, portray, they're like, stereotypes the meaning to different wordings and you know, so one key element that I learned is, when you say some words, these words, give meaning these were affect you because you know, the meaning behind the words. So but when you when you divide the meaning and the words is, is, is another, you know, learning that you don't need to, you don't need to take it personally anymore. Like, when one person say CA, CA CA is like English word, so you immediately pitch her car, because what memory so ca has a meaning because of your picturing, because of your memories, the car itself has no other meaning, but just your memory behind it gave you that thinking. So this is a very basic thing, but I feel like that's really fascinating learning for me. So when I like I can divide Ward and the meaning behind and how we put meaning behind. So when there's really offensive thing coming towards me then I I don't take it personally because in a way I can understand these are the words that people use to reflect themselves to project their own emotion and you know, different you can you can think different things out of these spaces teaching of that Vida ma so I will say it's really eye opening even three months called a woman course will be really beneficial for our in things on our way of living in this life. So I really suggest we can learn we also learnt a bit of MMA I was given the suggestion to all the yen but yen Atavist even though you're from different religion doesn't matter, just a beat Amar and a beat them all critical thinking these are the two main things to live a life could be a way of living, you know, really beneficial for for us. Yeah, sure,
Host 1:33:24
just know your mind that so much of the Buddha's teaching is just no your mind, no the mind body relationship and so beautiful, what you shared, I'm thinking a couple of things, as I hear it, you know, one is it's just reminding me again, it's underscoring just how important it is that those of us who are not Burmese that are from outside the country, but care about care about what's happening there and want to be involved. That whatever angle we're coming in from, it's so important to understand how so many of the democracy actors especially Bomar Buddhists, or Buddhists, from other ethnicities, how this, the spiritual practice and the meditation and the mind science that the Buddha teaches, this is guiding so much of the activism like yourself and like others. And I think that these in English, at least in these conversations, these these are not dialogues, I really hear a lot. And I don't think that what you so beautifully shared, I don't know if we would have gotten that unless we had gotten the you've gotten the right prompt to be able to go in that direction. And so often, we go in these directions and content that as largely Westerners, we might be more comfortable in the political sphere of looking at, you know, the Federal charter or, or what's going on politically in the country. These are all important things. They're very important things to understand. But we often there's often a dialogue about them at the expense of understanding how Buddhist practice is animating. So many of the actors and decisions and activities that are going on in really wholesome and helpful ways in terms of being able to understand the mind and to be centered to look at the role have ego of bias a blind spots and just on and on all these things, that's really great. And I also appreciate you describing how you, you know, you're very self aware. And you're just you know who you are, you know who you're not, you know what your tendencies are. And so with the understanding of yourself, you also understand that there is a type of Buddhist practice that is more conducive to who you are in terms of fitting into and sliding into that format, and perhaps a type of Buddhist practice like intensive formal sitting meditation and silence, which maybe is not so much for you that it's that that's not so much your style. And I think this is, from an outsider's point of view, this is really the and coming into Myanmar from a Buddhist perspective or a meditative perspective, this is really one of the treasures of the country, because the way that Buddhism has been exported into other countries has largely been this intensive Silent Retreat model. And it's kind of a one size fits all model, it's kind of there could be a square peg trying to fit into a round hole where it doesn't, you kind of have to contort yourself. And for I really want to highlight, you know, when this country becomes peaceful again, and it's such a generous country and sharing in general, but especially sharing from the sense of the spiritual riches and spiritual teachings, that this is really one of the beauties for foreign practitioners, like myself, and so many others who come is that they're able to have their eyes opened in terms of where and how they're able to practice, they don't just need to do one thing, when you're trying to practice, do some Buddhist practice, in a Western country, you don't have that many options or opportunities available to you more and more coming for sure. But they're there, there's a model of something that's been taken from a place of its origins and applied over here. And when you go to Myanmar, you as you described, you have this really buffet table of where you're able to go, who you're able to study with how you're able to practice, to what extent you want to be able to open yourself to these teachings and as you so eloquently described, being able to know who you are and gravitate to this type of teacher, this type of center, this type of practice, and have those opportunities open to you in really wonderful ways. Of course, we're describing a pre coup Myanmar. And, and right now things are very different. And that's where the next question leads in terms of where we're at now, and where we're going in what we're seeing in Buddhism in the country now. And to me, this seems like a particularly fraught moment where Buddhism is kind of being reformulated right in front of us in real time. That's true of any religion, any spiritual teaching, it has to have the flexibility to be able to respond to the current climate, while also managing to hold on to core principles as faced with different kinds of modern concepts. And so I think one extreme is to think that like, the only way to maintain a religious teaching is, is to have a parallel societal structure, where you have these hierarchies entrenched hierarchical and patriarchal attitudes, and you have rote learning and you have a climate of fear of the outside world, you're holding on, you see that with some of the conservative and military aligned, say it as in Burma now that it's this kind of fear and paranoia of the outside world and wanting to hold on to a traditional model. And another extreme would be to reject all of the associated like cultural, religious, spiritual monastic forms of Buddhism as something archaic and obsolete and to, to just reject it in mass and to move on to something else. But I would hope there would be some kind of middle ground and in indeed, this concept of middle ground middle path. This is one of the great truths of Buddhism is finding a way to continue to be relevant for a modern society to take these ancient, traditional, beautiful spiritual teachings. And as lady said, I did during the colonial period, when the British were there to be able to find a way to continue to have this philosophy and his teachings relevant even as the times and the society is changing dramatically with as you're having greater openness, diversity, plurality, access to technology, access to the outside world, educational professional opportunities, travel, etc. And if we look at a post military society, what do you see how do you see Burmese Buddhism starting to evolve? And how would you like to see Burmese Buddhism evolve in a freer democratic society?
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 1:39:52
So from the post coup like this, this time, right, the Spring revolutions we we kind of I've reflected on it, especially the revolutionaries, young people in different societies, especially ethnic minorities, they we've been reflecting on the past. And then we see, we see Buddhism and nationalist, extreme nationalism. You know, it's also a part of the problems, basically driven by the prominent Buddhist month in Myanmar, they are supporting Wanda and in a way that we felt like no, this is not how prisons was, you know, how prisons should be. And in a way we try to combat these narratives, that they are putting out the hatred and discrimination against the other ethnic minorities, and their religious minority. So in a way, in this revolution, we are seeing more and more of our different boorish meant rise up and stood up against all these narratives. And they are trying to portray a new forms of Buddhism. So you see, there is a network called multi ethnic multi religious network where the these religious leader walk together for Spring revolutions, and they broadcast every week, and they like kind of a preach over different platforms almost every day, to explain what Buddhism is about, and how these Buddhist men like in a higher position and different privileged position are using it against, you know, its own principle and how to how they're supporting and embodying you know, the Honda, Honda, they use the Buddhism as a car to exploit the people, they always say race, religion is most important than that they are protected. And that was the main reason why they coup and what that's the main reason why they are doing what they're doing all these perpetration. And recently, they they use one of the videos from the social media where the MND, one of the ethnic and group was trying to destroy the Zedi you know, pagoda and and then right after that, that M group apologized saying, We are sorry for any inconveniences any sadness that will cause and that's not our order that one person did it himself, and we are taking action on him and cetera. But still, the military use it as a as a trigger point to, you know, to instale more fear and more how to say misunderstanding between different ethnic groups and saying these rebels and these brotherhood alliances, for example, like me, they are using this. They are, they are the enemy of the Barisan in the country, they are the enemy of the national security, national unity and all these, you know, they're instilling all these fear. So they be using the Buddhism and the religions and the ethnicity as a, as a way to instill fear in a way they felt they they are the other only body that could unite that could unite the whole country to be the same. So they've been doing this for the past seven decades. And now I felt the young generation and all the revolutionaries thinking, Yes, we are Buddhist, we respect that. But that shouldn't be the one reason why we are condemning the other different, you know, when we are condemning the other different ethnic minorities or religious minority, we have to live together in harmony, and we won't bind your, your selling anymore, you know, all these religions selling or their extreme nationalism is selling. So I feel that awareness is really big. Like, for example, there is one group that I work with the they monitor, hate speech and fake news and misinformation and this and they also did a survey, public awareness on that fake news. And they say compared to the last five years, there is a higher awareness about fake news. So people can spot what is fake new people can spoil what is propaganda better than the past, because of that awareness because of the alarm that people have, like people are now awakened. Like, they have to be really careful what they consume, because these fake news and misinformation can slowly like get into them, right. And then the ground troops, especially the grassroots, organizer, civil society, they are T reminding the communities that, oh, the prison will be misused, you know, in a way by the military. So people hate military now, but they don't hate Buddhism. They don't hate, you know, nationalism. So that's also one thing that we have to make sure that people have better awareness. What is the Buddhism and what is the propaganda, you know, buying the military? So that network that I mentioned, the different revolutionary movements they were teaching, they were trying to combat these narrow telling them how to be more compassionate even to our enemies. So in this revolution, we are training our own compassion as well, because it's so brutal, you know, like, the military is beheading people, military burning down houses, raping, killing in the most brutal way, you know, all these things happening on the ground. But still today, people are still welcoming. The soldier say, please join us, please leave the military will forgive you, we will, like, we will give you a different life come out, don't join them, you know, in a way people stay well coming down. Of course, there are a lot of increased hatred toward the military and the whole institution. But at the same time, as I'm working on defection of OKC and defiance together with the former soldiers, and I've been doing this and I know that people are still have that compassion, they felt like oh, these soldier even though they are killing us, they are the vision of the system. So that's amazing that people stay have that compassion. And you know, they sympathize with the soldier say, soldiers have to do what they're told to do. Because if they don't do, they will be killed. That's why they're doing these things. So, but they know that military is a bad like, it's the whole institution, the leaders are bad. So they're trying to help the ground truth soldiers. In a way, you know, we are kind of been trying to be fair to these people, even though they are arrested. They are spare life. Even the three brother Alliance, when they announced the statement, they say, We will give you five things that we will spare your life, we will treat the wounded soldiers, and we will give you the transportation and you go home. So these kinds of things. So also give us another setting this revolution is not just about revenge, killing is not about revenge, is more than that is more than, you know what we can become. And it's people like, people like to explore that people like to discover who we really are. And in times of crisis, we show who we are, you know, we can be really fearful we can be really aggressive. But the leadership, the whole revolution setting based on that compassion, even the attorney leader, they are saying, we need to, we need to persuade the soldier, we need to give them an opportunity. They are human. So that's what I interviewed to the ethanol leader in 2021 2022. I interview them I was saying, What do you think of the factors or where you stay a sap that because too late, people say it's too late for them to come out of the military. And these other leaders say they are also human, they deserve a second chance. And like, that's what they say. And that's how people like us could keep up this advocacy on the faction inside the military. So these other leader, they were saying, even though they came as the infiltrators as spies, they felt like we will stay except that. And I was shocked how like, because that was one main reason people are rejecting all these defenders, because they felt like these people are not Junoon, they could be infiltrator and they could be you know, like exposing everything and they will return to their base and about these attorney leaders say, No, we will stay aceptan even if they come as a in February, they say, but of course all the fatter or the Burmese politician, whoever come in and take and shatter in our reach in our place, we will put them in different places. So they don't know each other. They don't know what we're doing. But we will stay a Saturday soldier as in fact, like, wherever they are, wherever they come, whatever they come with, they say but when they come with us, we will give them like opportunity to learn different things. So they say we will show them how soldiers should be treated humanely. Because in the in the military, they were not treated as human, they were treated as cows and like animals. That's how I know. Like, they beat each other so bad. Like, like they are their captain will be the lieutenant Lieutenant will be the soldiers. You know, these torture and these violence are all insights in the institution institutional attitude, the water and the violence. So I'm not surprised when I see they were beaten so bad to the civilians because I've seen that inside military I've seen they beat in that way inside themselves. So they felt like they are supposed to be other people because they were beaten that way. And they were trained that way. So they felt like they have to add on that on the other minor other people like amla life without em so they will do the same thing.
So that's the mindset of it is it's become like a soccer valance. So but these other leader they say they show them how Soldiers should be treating each other in like comradeship, brotherhood, you know, kind of, and I remember there are some soldiers who are really surprised how the ethnic leader are treating their own soldiers, because they never been treated that way, in the military, like these other leaders, eaten together with the soldiers sitting on the ground, with them staying with them, you know, they never been treated that way as human. So that treatment, chain them. And that's how many soldiers still advocating as a public speaker, public, you know, figure they feel so ashamed of what they have done in the past, they feel guilt, and they are now really thankful and grateful that they, they can become a human themselves. And now they're advocating back and they are telling to other other comrades inside the military to come out, join them are to do the right thing. So it's like a bridging, you know, between the military and then the pro democracy side. So these soldiers need to factor we have like now 14,000 Defender, including soldiers and policed register with a new national unity government. And we, we think the actual number on the ground could be higher than this. So many people are leaving already, but 14,000 register to work with the revolution site. So these soldiers, yeah, they are really now advocating and the soldier inside, listen to the soldiers, because these are their former colleagues, right. So how they are living the life, how they're having a good life, you know, they really envy on them and the right, we will join you so and then they join eventually, you know, when a when, when, after one come out and join them and sort of as so many other people want to join them to incite, but just because they are tied to the institution, their family are taken as hostages. As I said, it's a state within state, so you don't even need to go get out you have everything inside your compound and, and then that's why military leaders are not given you leave to go back to your families and you know, to meet your parents, so they are all locked up inside the compound and in the unit. And I think soldiers are really fearful, they are really fearful and they are they are nothing without amps. So they are they are safe with the against peace beside them, you know, they they don't have that security inside themselves. They are really insecure, insecure. And the whole institution itself is so insecure Institute institutions, so they're so defensive. And they felt the weapon is the only power they can have. So they all go into that hot power. And they build power around these materials, you know, these guns and weapons and fighter jets. And so but without them, they are nothing. So now in this revolution, we are empowering these individual soldiers to realize their own power within, and to be themselves to recognize them as a human in a way, they can be empowered, and they can stand up for the rights, like there are so many human rights violation inside military as well, that I never know, we never know what's happening to the woman inside and stuff. So now we are saying, though, don't like don't obey the orders all the time that you can stand up for yourself, you can defend your own rights. So in a way, they can become a whole themselves like human, and they can walk through it and they can fix their own institution, in a way into a right direction. You know, that's, that's, that's the revolution is whatever we are trying to achieve, you know, the society, the right base, democratic federal society is also where we for them to for the generations. So we are sending these messages. This society will be beneficial for your generation. So come and join us. And yeah, they are responsible for their own institutions. So yeah, this revolution that's how I feel really hopeful that we have pressed unprecedented, you know, number of soldiers leaving the military every day. So many surrender these days, like within three min. They were like 4000 Soldiers surrender. Yeah, so if we want this evoke Casey, that we're create more change. Right?
Host 1:54:41
Yeah. And this gets into some of your activity after the coup and it has to be said that you have been such a prolific activist in your life has been so full up to this point that we're nearing the two hour mark. We've barely been able to crack the surface of just everything you've been doing after the coup. and they're on there, unfortunately, won't be time to go into it all here. Because given where we are in the interview and how much there is to cover, hopefully we can convince you to come back to another session. But I do before we leave off here and time is just kind of flown. I do want to just highlight, in general terms, everything you've been doing and ask you one specific question about one of the more infamous pieces of advocacy that you did. But just to look at all of the different activities that you've been involved in and not just involved in really leading or or founding from the ground up. You mentioned affection. That's a huge part of what you do that being coming from a military family yourself, you're definitely well positioned to be able to know how to talk to the military mind and the people's goals, you've been very active in terms of advocating for defection and support and not just starting the process of encouraging in effect, but then the holistic experience of being able to guide those soldiers and their families as they come out and integrate them into society. You've also been you lead an account India for Myanmar, where you're looking at indo Burmese relations, the general strike committee, you've been involved in that several other large Twitter accounts with large followings, you've also been a part of in terms of some of the initiatives that you've been leading in supporting, leading dialogues with ethnic women and building solidarity with between Bomar women and different ethnic women and fostering dialogue. They're supporting all kinds of humanitarian efforts at IDP camps. And, and, and some of the medicine and food you've been fundraising for and delivering there, we could go on and on with that I also I should mention the fight like a garment worker cartoon that you sponsored the showing the plight of the largely female garment worker and Myanmar putting that in comic form to be able to create more advocacy. But one of the really infamous things that you led with sisters, two sisters, in the early days of the coup, was to take pictures of yourself and of other women that appeared to be appeared to look as if you had been beaten. Thank
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 1:57:25
you for mentioning that that was such a profound moment for me when I started that. And I would say it's not the first thing that I did like in the past in 2015, I guess I dress up as an ITP woman, internally displaced woman from Shan State and ice. And I sat down on the ground in the middle of the Yangon in front of the shopping mall, you know, in front of in front of the really traffic, you know, gentian and I sat down the holding a baby like fake baby and I was writing something on the ground like, oh, there is another kid blown up in Shan State, nothing's going on, just keep up going, you know, this title provocated messages was really successful at that time, it went viral and people didn't know that was me and they fell really touching. And it's also like, brought attention to what's happening in Shan State and other different ethnic areas where kids are blown up and you know, people don't really care and also people don't really know what's going on and people live their life everyday in urban areas and then the urban city, the middle class don't really, you know, don't really take any action all these perpetration is happening. So I did it. In essence, sympathies and you know, empathy towards different ethnic minorities woman and the babies and their daily struggle. Of course it was I wouldn't know 100% Or hyung they feel like being an ITV but I can kind of picture and I can kind of portray their struggle in Yengo in the middle of Yangon as a Bernie. So that moment that I did in 2015 also humbled me a lot because when I was on the ground, I wasn't looking at people I was looking at people's shoes because I was always like, bend down my my head and I was looking at and then I ended up in a message in front of me I was saying people just keep going right keep going. And then of course as I said, so many people pass by and so many people just stop a reader message and they just went ahead and and most of the people who went ahead have a better shoes, you know they they were very expensive shoes and they just passed but the ones who are wearing a very random shoes really, you know, poor shoes, they stop. They stop and just stand they and they stood with me And so, that kind of moment get just give me a sense of like how
Yeah, grassroot people, they are always together, you know, the the will be standing for you when you are really in your low stage, you know, so kind of gave me more more connection to these grassroot people, and especially poor people. And, you know, it was just, it was just a performance. They didn't know it, even though they knew that I was doing it as a, as a performance. They just, they just asked a longer question, they say, What is going on? Tell me more. And I was fascinated by their, you know, interest. And I felt like, Oh, this is how people power look like, you know, people on the ground, they will be the first to oppose, you know, the different dictators and so, and you have to pay the price.
Yeah, and, and that's also related to what spring revolution is about, you know, the middle class and the rich society, they won't take any, you know, any responsibility and so on. But the farmers worker, the government's worker, they were the first to a post the dictators because they knew too well how that will impact their life and their generations, and how the other people in our society so. So when the woman were beaten up in jail, and they intentionally put out these pictures of a woman beaten up, like, and they have a swollen face, and in Myanmar, you know, in the society teaching, we are supposed to be pretty, and when they destroy our appearances, you know, we are we have felt like, Oh, my God, I'm, I'm ugly now in in a way you feel so bad. So I can see, I can feel that one, pretty young woman's pretty, like, you know, young woman's were beaten up to that face, ugly face, they will be so bad, like, they will be so bad. Also, their family would feel so bad, their friends were feels so bad. So I was like, doesn't matter how you look like, you know, you could be ugly, but it's your spirits that we are fighting with. And it's your spirit that we love. So I was I was wearing like a like, oddly, you know, beaten out woman into a woman. And I looked so bad in that picture that I was doing, and I don't care about my, my appearances. I will say, I'm alive and I'm outside, I'm safe. But I don't care my parents that it's not about appearances. It's about the spirits. So I I'm picturing myself and I raised three finger in a way, that is a protest, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to give a different around impression that I got beaten up that way. But I'm raising my three fingers is a way to portray the situation as like a performance. And I also claim that in that post Facebook post saying many of a woman are beaten up that way. But imagine your friend me is beaten this way. You know, how would you feel? Yeah, so international friends that I have, they were shocked to see me this way. And they always see me really shiny, you know, like in different events, but they see me that way. And they feel so connected to our struggle in that way. So and then I thought that Sister Sister, it just just me and I was just one person. And then the other sister just also, like copy this kind of activism. And they did it and it went viral. And then I was just adding the hashtag Sister sister. But then there are other sister who pick this up and they found the organization. And I thought this campaign would just go away and now in a week, because there are so many things are happening. But it didn't go away. And other sister picked this up as an organization. And they were like, asking me to lead the organization. And I was like, Oh, I didn't have any intention to organize another woman group because we already have other woman group already. And I want to just contribute to them. I don't want to form a parallel or like, different groups again, you know, but then I felt like in that time, different women's groups are in very difficult situation. They can speak up and they couldn't they have to hide because they were so so prominent in the past. So I have to I felt like oh, maybe we can use this platform to fill the gap, you know, to speak up to raise the visibility for women and we kept doing this and we want we don't want to do overlap things. So we did campaigning, we did solidarity for women got No workers for Rohingya women and for women in IDP camps woman in prison. So, yeah, different solidarity campaign. I think that's different from the other woman's group or what they are already occupying with. So we are trying to fill the gap and trying to be the bridge between International Woman's group and then local woman group in this revolution. Yeah.
Host 2:05:23
So that was really powerful, because you had the military doing this kind of scare tactic of putting out of publicizing as a warning, a sick and grotesque warning of young Burmese women who had been battered and beaten in prison by by by the military, and was appeared out as kind of like a scare tactic of this. Well, this is what will happen to you if you know this was the early days of the coup, and you responded in something that you as you tell it, now, you didn't know it would go viral. But it didn't just go viral. In Myanmar, it it had an international trail of having a women like yourself, putting on the appearance of having been battered as a sign of solidarity and fearlessness, really an extraordinarily way of backfiring what the military was trying to do, because this the sickening thing they were trying to do actually started a movement to fearlessness against them, and using their inhumanity against them so that it showed back at them. And, and this was really powerful. I know, I can only imagine what it's like to be holding as much as you are. And the stakes are so high. And the stories are so horrific. And I know for myself that and I'm and granted I'm in a place of physical safety and in the work that that I'm doing, but just my own proximity to some of these stories and some of these events, you go, I'll go through day after day after day of of what our nonprofit can support in terms of the funding that we give to different IDPs or different vulnerable populations, the stories that we put on the podcast. And for myself, I have to have something of a to get through the process of the conversations and the work that's being done. There has to be a kind of separation between the emotion, the personal emotionality of it and the actual work that is being done. In order to get through the day in order to just process what has to happen. I think this is true for people in intense jobs and situations, people working in ER, police officers, firefighters, etc, you have to shut something off in order to get the job done. But then I know for myself, that in some cases, this emotion will overtake me in ways that I don't expect and at times in certain conversations in certain venues. This vulnerability and this emotion will suddenly come up and it's not so much that I'm suppressing it other times, it's more that I'm managing it in order to get through some of these other tasks that have to be done but then in surprising moments, this they'll just be this emotion that's tapped into of, of how high the stakes are of how much I care about the people that are at risk and how severe and terrible the atrocities are the anger of the international community turning away as they have and and then the emotion will just overtake me and in those surprise encounters. And for me it has happened in some surprise cases it's come it's there's been a trigger and suddenly I find myself tapping into into an emotionality that I didn't expect
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 2:08:43
actually, it's such a you know, emotional drive since a cool time, you know, you see all the your friends close friends being to torture, sometime kills, and also different stories coming out from the ground every day, we have to deal with these news and as activists and we're not even like a journalist or like monitor group, you know, so I don't really know the whole picture was happening, but I am like closer to the to the news and to the ground. So I know what's happening on the ground, in a way. So every day, it's been nearly three, three years now. And I would say every day people like us have to deal with these news and so every day is like it's a battle in mourning you will be so emotional in a way because of its rifle to be emotional because it's it's really personal sometimes. Your friend your friend just got killed or your friend who like you know, there's someone you know, when you close with them, are you oh you work with. So even in my strike group general strike committee, we have to close different Facebook accounts almost every day because Cyclops may Young people stay striving in the in Myanmar insight Myanmar and you're chasing them and we have to like close down their internet account, we have to arrange for the safe house almost every day. So in the morning, you will be really sad and really depressed, you don't know what to do, you're not in the position to control things in the evening. In the evening, you will be motivated again, because you see the whole picture of the whole revolution is about and still people are still striving and this is for the better good for the country. So. So in a way you are trying to navigate yourself, you know, going in and out. But overall, I always say in different events is even now I won't change attain that I'm still very hopeful. I'm still very optimist, I'm still very much, you know, encouraged to keep going things because we're already halfway through. I'm, you know, the most depressing time for me as an activist was when the Rohingya case happened, that almost everyone I know is not speaking out. It's not like they're not, they were not standing up for, you know, and we have a lot of debates, and we have a lot of pushback and you know, attack each other. And we're not in a position to do something as well. And even our own government was defending the military, that time is so depressing, and passed on that. I feel hopeful now, because now everybody's aware. And now, if I'm not speaking up on something like injustice, there will be someone else will take over this, you know, what take over and they will speak up for it. So now I can take some time read some restful time, because so many activists are now coming up, and they are doing the same thing that I was doing like five years ago. So I can take some rest some time off to be more strategic in a way. So that also motivate me Give me more space to be myself to have my own things. And so every day, it's a mix of, you know, emotions and trying to control things. But But overall, I try to control, I try to remind myself that it's important that we live in present, we live in present what you can do, what you can control what is under your control, and then you keep up with us and you keep doing things regardless, wherever it may be a bit thing, it may be a small thing doesn't matter. You have to just keep going things and not derailing from your own roads you have. So I have a very clear map of what I'm doing and how I'm doing and very, and also very strong reason of what I'm doing how I'm doing. So I just keep up being on my own track and keep things going one day at a time. And that will impact on in the long run, you know, contributing to a bigger picture. So that's what I can control and that I remind myself, but I I was like emotional when I was explaining about my encounter with the grassroot people in 2015. But was so was so overwhelmingly humbling for me. That told me a lot. They handle people like me, even though I feel closer to the ground closer to the grassroot community, and I have a another stronger reason to work for the people, especially on the grassroot level. Because these are the people that we can, you know, they are already in power now like they are already they know what they have to do and they keep doing things so if they keep doing what they're doing even they have no support even no no resources. Why not me? Why not me? I have different networks. I have different resources I can keep doing. So what drives me keep going is these people on the ground, they're not given up. They're not given up this day protest. They are now IDP they are displays in the face hardship but they stay Keep up the spirit same if they bend down my house I will be a bigger one. So this is that I heard from the old woman you know like in and they she said that but she's I'm sad I'm sad that the the military ban my my trees my trees is 50 years old says she's sad about the nature she said about the trees she's not sad about her own house or her own family. She said military is no longer in our soul in our spirits they don't recognize the military as military so they feel oh the bad people were do the bad things so that's no no no surprise in that so they don't take military as military anymore. So that also made me feel confident in my of OKC that we want a new chain new political change now. And so people were on the ground when the military raided in a ban house then ban on the houses After three men, they came back, and they will be new houses again. So Anna military came in again, and they were flee some way. And after some time, they will come back again. So, and they they say military is only 200,000 soldiers, we are millions, they can be everywhere. And that, that that came he says yes, that's true. They can be everywhere. We are, we are everywhere. We are million strong. We are like, even if the mullet they are military supporter, we are still like 30 million strong, you know, or 30 million strong out of 50 Millions. So that that that'll give me more like all power over, you know, the military and we keep up with what we're doing. And we will we will get there we will get to a change, you know? Yeah.
Host 2:15:51
Well, I thank you so much for this, it's some you know, we're well over the two hour mark, I feel like we can still go two more hours and barely scratched the surface. It's such a delight to be able to talk to you not just about your perspective, but your life journey and activism and just belief your confidence is infectious. And it's it's, despite these difficult circumstances, it's just speaking for myself, it's really encouraging and motivating to hear your optimism and an optimism that's backed up by the actions that you've taken and continue to take. And
Thinzar Shunlei Yi 2:16:28
thank you for inviting me and asking all these personal questions, I think it's sometimes good to recount on my journey. And that gave me a sense of who I am. And, you know, like kind of a, it's not a that I that I think that you know, of my past life of my tie who and you know, so give me an opportunity to also reflect on how I like the journey that I that I traveled so far. And note that and I think even if I was given another choice who you want to be become, I will still be an activist. I think I have tried so many scenarios that I could become, I could become a teacher I could become when I was businesswoman and I will always be an activist and wherever I'm in, doesn't matter, the position doesn't matter the community that I work with, I always keep other spirits that for Justic, you know, just an E like equality. So I think it's important. Sometimes people might feel a bit relative to be named or labeled as activists, they don't want to name or as an activist, that's okay. As long as you have that activism inside yourself, that you are ready to, like speak up your mind. And when there is injustice that you will fight back, you will stand with the minority, you will stand with the oppressed community, regardless where you are, it could be in your classroom, it could be in your house, it could be in your workplace, you are an activist, you want to as you know, that activism should, should be in our heart and should thrive in different places, not just in politics, but in different places, then we always equally change the society and changing the society in the United States is changing society, Myanmar to you know, so wherever you are in, you do your thing. And that is also beneficial for other society around the world. So when we have a stronger democracy, we can help other democracy you know, that's it, thank you
Host 2:18:47
ba, ba ba ba. Bye. I'll be honest, not only is asking for donations, my least favorite thing in the world to do, I find it pretty uncomfortable as well. Yet it is an unavoidable but necessary task in order to ensure that our platform can continue to bring you stories from postcode Myanmar. And unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that there is a basic minimum cost to keep our engine humming. So please allow me to take a moment for that least favorite and uncomfortable thing to do, and ask sincerely for your generosity in supporting our mission. If you found value in today's show, and think others might as well, we ask that you take a moment to consider supporting our work. Thank you for taking the time to hear our spiel. And with that, it's off to work on the next episode. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities. Post donations are directed to such causes As the civil disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma, and your donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause and both websites accept credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. That's betterburma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r r m a.org. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at alokacrafts.com Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's aloka crafts spelled A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.