Transcript: Episode #205: Uncovering Dr. Leon Wright
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Host 0:20
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Host 2:21
We're talking today to Ayesha Shalida Simmons, and we're going to be speaking about the extraordinary life and very important legacy of an individual named Dr. Leon. Right. I will turn it over to Aisha to begin the journey, not just of who Leon right was what he did, why he's important, but also how she found him and her journey and exploring and uncovering who this figure was and why that was important to her. So I you should take it away.
Aishah 2:56
Wow. Well, thank you Joah for having me on to talk about Reverend Dr. Leon. Right. And I have claimed him as a spiritual ancestor, chosen ancestor and I need to share that I wouldn't know about him if it weren't for you. I remember very vividly you sharing about him during the summer of 2020. During the COVID, the global COVID lockdown on the heels of the the murder of George Floyd. We were sharing it and you you shared Oh, you know there was this African American who studied with CRG by Keane, the great Buddhist, Myanmar Burmese teacher of my former teacher SN Goenka and I had no idea. And so you shared an image of me, US you shared an image of Dr. Wright, with me like a photo graft image of him and a link that's on the patriotic website of letters or correspondence between Dr. Wright and C IG by came and my mind was just blown wide open. And I think I mean, I think for me, I particularly in the lineage that I was in for 17 years, I had always been looking for representation, if you will, while you know I definitely this path is the path for me in my lifetime, the spiritual path of of, of, of practicing for passionate meditation and I first you know, my my first teacher and that was SN Goenka. But I just didn't see you know, there weren't many. There just weren't any references to African Americans in this specific lineage. And so to find out about Dr. Wright is especially in the summer of 2020, it's just I felt like my head has just really opened and it's sent me on this, this quest to learn as much as I possibly could. And I'm, again, it that meant from the internet because we were all sheltering in place all over.
Host 5:31
All right, yeah, that's, that's really quite a time to find out about someone that's significant and to start your journey. So go ahead and pick up the story and tell us what you learned and how you learned it and who this figure was. So
Aishah 5:43
Dr. Wright was a African American scholar, theologian, author and cultural attache to Burma. And in the 1950s, he studied there with like, keen CRG by keen eye. And who was you know, as I shared earlier, just as great meditation, teacher mastery was a leading 20th century authority on and teacher of the passionate meditation. He's the founder of the International meditation center in in Burma, and as again as I also just stated before, you know, my route as an first teacher, sn Goenka also studied for 15 years with with Viking. So I'd still like and so I, so for me, I just I was just drawn to him. And I drawn to that doctor, right, and started googling. That was the first place that that I went was to the internet. And so I learned that Dr. Wright was born in 1902. So the turn of the 20th century, he was a Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Boston University, where he also received a master's degree in the history and philosophy of religion. Subsequently, he received Dr. Wright received a sacred theology degree in 1943, from Harvard Divinity School, and a doctorate in 1945 in the history and philosophy of religion at Harvard University. He joined Howard University, which is a historically black college university in the United States in 1945. Howard University is based in Washington DC, and while there he was the associate editor of the university's Journal of religious thoughts from 1950 to 1965. And for his scholarship, which was just cutting a edge, he received a Guggenheim Fellowship in 1952. And that's when he served our shortly after I should say a few years after that served as a cultural attache at the US Embassy in Yangon, Myanmar, from 55 to 57. So, during Dr. Wright's tenure as an attache it he met Oba keen, and he studied extensively with him and mother, OSI ammaji. And who was Uber Keens senior disciple, a close confidant and CO teacher of the International meditation center in Yangon. So this is, you know, this is a late 50s. I mean, this is the, you know, it's just so that's I mean that that's, that was the beginning, I was just I was like, Oh my gosh, so he was a contemporary of the theologia. African American theologian, Howard Thurman, and who many know about many theologians and activism kind of know about Howard Thurman, but we we don't know about Dr. Wright. We didn't know about him, and we many still don't know about him.
Host 9:09
And so just to put this in context, in that era, you have in leading the 1950s, he is he's going to some of the top schools in the country and graduating with honors having positions that are showing his renowned scholarship and the respect but then in the 1950s. He is serving in the US Embassy in as an African American as a diplomat, I assume in Rangoon, Burma, to put in context what how unusual it would this be for in this era of American history before the Civil Rights Movement for an African American to be in a position like this?
Aishah 9:46
Thank you for that. I mean, this is it's it's almost, you know, I don't want to say completely unheard of there, but in terms of particularly in what, what is unique is that as the term In the 20th century in the 40s, and 50s, African Americans were going to colleges and universities. And most of them, were going to historically black colleges and universities, which are some of the preeminent organization, institutions that have just educated just generations of some of our greatest thinkers, known African American thinkers. And so I'm intrigued that here's someone and I didn't even say that he was an he was orphaned, who would in 1902, I mean, in terms of Jim Crow apartheid laws, that prevented African Americans from using public bathrooms eating in restaurants, definitely no voting, I mean, just the lynchings that were happening at the turn of the century. So for him to be able to study now he was in in Boston, he was not in the south, though there definitely there was racism throughout this country. So for him to be able to, you know, go to these be admitted this, you know, into these institutions, and then Excel and get, you know, the, you know, a terminal degree a PhD, is just incredible. And then not only getting Guggenheim but also to serve as an attache as a diplomat in the US Embassy in at the US Embassy, excuse me, in Yangon, Myanmar, like often when we hear about diplomats, particularly at that time of the year, there was a lot of work happening in countries in Africa, in countries in the Caribbean, and even countries in Europe. We don't hear about folks, African Americans doing work in Asia, which is not to say that that wasn't happening, but we just don't hear about it. So for me, it just, it's, he's like, definitely this hidden figure. Traversing so many things like, you know, we haven't even dealt with Dharma Dharma Buddha. But but so much, it's just like, Wow,
Host 12:13
it's so interesting to think of all these different forces coming together. I mean, obviously, on the American side, just the racial divisions and injustice that's happening. But then this is then then on the Burmese side, I mean, he's going he's he's in Burma, and in really, what, to me is one of the most fascinating incredible times and, and difficult times of Burmese history, it's the post independence parliamentary democracy period of the 1950s. Leaving before May, when had his 1962 coup, which plunged the country into economic distress and decades of oppression that we're still dealing with today. He was there at this pivotal time when it was also we have to recognize this was also a very, as this would have been prevalent for him as part of the US mission in the Cold War game that was being played in that period, which was, you know, which was happening all around the world. Burma was one of the most interesting places on the globe, because Burma was a it was attempting to be a non aligned country. It was actually so non non aligned, that it quit the non aligned movement, because it wanted to be even more non aligned in that. And so it was a place of enormous intrigue among American British Russian Chinese agents that were were that, that, yeah, that the Rangoon specifically was this place where all these games were being played out. And then that's the more political side, but then the, the, when you're looking at the Burmese Buddhist side, this is really the birth of this before this, what's called this mindfulness revolution has spread across the world. It's starting to explode in Burma. This is where in the post independence period, the ground seeds that lady said I had laid and Mahasi say it and now becoming one of the great figures say I do because obviously is happening alongside that although weekend, the numbers he taught just dwarfs the Mahasi mission. And and so you just have this explosion of passionate for lay people taking place in Burma to an unprecedented extent that's going on. And all these forces are coming together. And just to throw one element in there that I think is it was was quite revealing and fascinating about how some of these elements came together. As you know, as we've talked offline, there's someone I'm speaking to that was a part of this IMC mission that was also a student of mobikin. But came after Leon right was there and when I asked her about her memories, or what not her memories, because she never met Leon, right, but what she heard about Leon right from people at the center, she talked about how affectionate they were toward towards him what good memories they had, how warm the relation was. But then the one really interesting thing was that they never mentioned the color of his skin. And it wasn't until decades later that this woman found out he was African American. And, and that's just I don't know what to make of that detail. But it's so incredible that these racial divisions are so important in America. And and not to say that skin color is not important in other countries. I think that there's studies that have shown that darker skin tones around the world face discrimination, but for whatever reason, at IMC This figure was talked about so much to this woman who spent so much time there. And no one ever thought to reference that as being an important he was an American, he was an American. And so despite these incredible divisions coming stateside, in somehow in Burma, or at least at IMC, there was not really any understanding or interest in, in differentiating that way.
Aishah 15:43
Yeah, that is. That's that. I mean, I know. I'm still going yeah, like I'm pausing. Because it's, it's so it's so so credulous. Yeah, know, as, as an African American woman where you know, everything I feel like is the fight so much is defined by by, by, by being African American, and I have never been to Myanmar. But you I have traveled to many countries in the world, including Malaysia, and India's just speaking about Asia and definitely have not in terms of I didn't have any negative experiences in those countries. But it was very clear that I was African American. Yeah, this was the time of Obama being president, and you know, all of that. So it's just a different time period. So I'm intrigued by that, you know, I'm intrigued by that. And, yeah, that's, that's, that's really an incredible to me. And I wonder, yeah, just I wonder, I mean, the fact that Dr. Wright taught at Howard, for all of his teaching life, I mean, he, you know, which is a historically black college has, I wonder what his, how he moved in around with all of that, you know, how, but I do think that that's, it's really incredible that he was there at that time period. And I think it's also what's important, because we, you know, I don't feel like CAG by keen gets enough credit, right for just for what he's done in terms of Vipassana mindfulness. I mean, we hear about it in the, in the SN Goenka tradition all the time, but beyond him, we don't hear about it. And, and so for me, I was also drawn back precisely, it's like, because of like, here's this, you know, Burmese man in the 50s, who, you know, of course, you know, you hear about the Western students, but Western often means particularly in that time period means white, right? So, right, you know, I just assumed all the students were, were white. And so here, here's Liam, right. And so clearly, based on what you were just sharing in what we've talked about offline, there's something to that right, that for for Oba keen, it didn't matter, because he appointed right to teach. And so that I think is very profound. And one of the things and I gave a Dharma talk at the in February of 2023. At elm community insight in New Haven, Connecticut, on Dr. Wright during what's known as Black History Month in the United States. And I and so I have, it just hit me because it was 2023. I was like, Wow, 60 years ago, 1963 is when Dr. Wright received a letter of authorizing him by Ooba keen to teach and that was, I think it was like if it was before the March on Washington that this happened, like a letter like so, you know, just to put that into context. And for people who may not know what the March on Washington was the famous March for jobs, peace and freedom that happened in 1963. August, in Washington, DC, when Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. gave the speech that we know and hear all over the world, it's known as the I Have a Dream speech. So just putting that in kind of, at least in a US context, that here was someone appointed to teach on upon a meditation to teach in, in the US, and he did. I mean, as as you know, you and I have discussed, it's some writing, say, as many as 10,000 people through his talks at the embassy now, a lot of times when we hear teaching, we're thinking, at least I'm thinking, you know, I'm thinking, Oh, we're going on a retreat and we're sitting. So teaching, you know, can also meet, I think, in this context, and I mean, I'd like to get your your Thoughts could also mean lectures, would you say or not?
Host 20:03
Yeah, I think I do think you have to break it down. Because I think that you, you have to credit Goenka with, to what extent he, he put this idea of the meditation retreat box in our mind. And in some ways, I've read some writings where people have argued that we've almost become conditioned at this point to think that this is the that this core structure has been so effective. And we look at it with with such an authority that it's almost hard to now pull our minds outside of it. That's how just how effective. Goenka especially was able to package all of these things in into an intensive course structure that people abroad could then reach. But we're talking about with Dr. Right, we're talking about teaching that both predated as well as went beyond when going started his mission. And so it's it's not I would say it's not really fair, correct to look at to judge Buddhist or meditation teaching before especially the Glencoe movement, because you know, Goenka really paved the way that was something that wasn't that that was so outside of the box and charging his own path that you can't find examples that that predate that have to quite the same extent that he did. And then I think another way to break that box down is to look at the examples from Burma. And this is not they're not great examples, because this is a Buddhist country. And so they just look at these teachings and this practice in a different way. But my 15 years in Burma, I mean, they definitely showed me that there were there are many ways to to develop in a Buddhist way or to practice a meditation beyond the formal sitting on the cushion. And so I do think that you have to be much more open minded and curious about the way that Buddhist or meditative instructions can be given than the way that we're all conditioned now, by really the success of of what Goenka has done, and then everyone outside of him that has not going to alone. I think he really paved the way but I think that that by him showing what's possible many other teachers then put their own spin on it in some somewhere related to the model that Glencoe was setting up. But I also think that we should mention that, you know, Dr. Wright was appointed before Glencoe was, he studied with Uber kin before Glinka did, yeah, and so you have this, I mean, just to really emphasize the how incredible this whole story is, you have an African American diplomat from which we'll, we'll get to in a moment, because we haven't gotten to that yet from a Christian background, who has learned a Burmese meditation technique, and is now back in America in Howard, historically back black college, among other places, we know that he also gave a lecture at the at the embassy and important one that we'll get to later, as well as probably other venues that he taught, that is delivering a Burmese meditation technique or ideology or methodology. In America, he's the carrier of this, and this is these forces coming together. I mean, this is just an incredible story that's lost to history. Exactly.
Aishah 23:05
I mean, and I'm thank you for, you know, pointing, highlighting that because I definitely like that's all like, I have all these notes. That from me, and I still have to go back to like, being blown away in the summer of 2020. With all like Rachel uprisings, like, kind of feeling like, you know, when you learn history that you didn't know, I'm just like, Oh, my goodness. And not only that, in terms of, I think what's also equally as important, it's just that, you know, Obi key off did something what now now, now Now, in terms of Western Buddhism, lineages are beginning to do it, which is a point black teachers, yeah, you know, across, you know, it doesn't go into insight. It's just, you know, like, this is a relatively speaking new reality, I would say over the past, let's say 20 years, give or take, but oh, by Keane appointed him in 6360 years ago, I mean, so there's, there's been a pathway like, in many ways, and I say this as a, as a really devoted and dedicated, terrified and practitioner, like, you know, like, this is why it's so important that we understand these histories because you can easily think like there there isn't that there. There wasn't a pathway before that said here was this incredible teacher right, who in many ways because Goenka taught so many folks in the early days who are now recognized as you know, founders of the of Western Buddhism insight he taught so many of them so then in understand that going to learn from Obi Keane so, so from you know, their teachers teacher, he had already laid the groundwork in terms of appointing if you know, appointing a black person. Now again, given what you we just talked about, we Recently in this, this conversation around how people mark a doctor, right? being black, they, you know, he was just, quote unquote, an American. I mean, he wasn't American citizen. But you know, I don't know what that all meant for Uber king, but I do know what it means for all of us living in us lens.
Host 25:19
That's a good that's an important distinction. Yeah. And I think another thing this breaks down is that which is so fascinating and and this is not excluded just to Dr. Leon, right. But I think that we have this overarching understanding of how the meditation movement came to us in the US as really, the Western predominantly if not entirely white hippies, that were escaping the Vietnam War, and the counterculture looking for something different outside of the American consumerism and capitalism, finding these teachings and the teachings and then bringing them back, whether they're the Glinka movement or figures like Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzberg, Daniel Goleman, Joseph Goldstein, that whatever those names are, perhaps the Tibetan tradition has their own carriers in a particular way, but certainly, with Theravada, coming from primarily Burma and Thailand. That's the story of what we hear. And what's so interesting is that there were figures that predated this that played an important role. Dr. Lyon right is not the only one. There's there's others that we've talked about and looked at that are from an earlier generation from the hippies, John Coleman, just to name one that were. But what's so interesting about Dr. Leon right is not only was he he's fitting into these two categories, which kind of break the mold and how you think of it. He was, he was not a hippie. He was not escaping counterculture. He was a professional academic, diplomat, renowned, respected in his field. And I'm not I'm just doing kind of the dates. Middle Age, right, right.
Aishah 26:47
I said almost two generations I used to most of these folks were born in the 40s or later, right.
Host 26:54
Right, three years younger than u BA. Khin. I just realized, as you said that U BA. Khin was at 99. I didn't realize till you said that, how close in age they were. And so he is, he and others from that generation are carriers of this movement that breaks down that dynamic and storyline, we also often hear of the hippie generation, but he breaks down the other storyline. I mean, so it's, it's interesting to point this out, because there's two storylines, these storylines he's breaking, he's breaking down, one of them being the him being African American, and the role that he played in being appointed and carrying it that way. And the other being that, who he was in life, and when he found it as not being part of the hippie generation. Yeah,
Aishah 27:33
and you know, when you I'm just having this aha moment about him being three years younger, older, younger than the key to me like, and also that he could have been biologically with his father, you know what I'm saying? Like, so I never even thought about that. Because I've seen as this, you know, Father, fig Nana, not my father figure, I have a father. I'm very closer, but like a father figure in a different kind of way that I was like, Whoa, because, you know, we know that going to because he was appointed in 69. And, you know, we just, she just shared that. Right, was appointed in 63. And right was there in 55, to 57. As an you know, so that was like, right before? I mean, maybe they overlap, maybe we don't know. But you're absolutely right, in terms of the will definitely, obviously, race, but the age, the occupation. I mean, he too, was, well, he wasn't a businessman, he was a scholar and a theologian and a Christian at that, like he wasn't at you know, I think, I'm not sure but my understanding is that he wasn't necessarily going to Myanmar to like study Buddhism. Right. I think that that was just like a byproduct of what happened.
Host 28:52
Yeah, so talk a bit about that Christian background, both of Dr. Lyon right, and how what kind of Christianity he had, as well as giving some of the historical context that under that can help us to place what community or movement he might have been a part of in his Christian beliefs and practice.
Aishah 29:10
Yeah, I mean, I, to me, I feel like Reverend Dr. Wright very much like I mean, I feel like he had to have been and I don't use this word lightly, but like really a mystic or into mysticism and thinking about him. And again, I point to Reverend Dr. Howard Thurman, who actually writes a blurb on on Dr. Wright's book called from cold to Cosmos, can Jesus be saved? So just in to write that in the 70s. Like that, and and so I really, I think that this is why he was open in Myanmar, like he was not there on this missionary Christian missionary project. I think that he, from my understanding, and definitely from what I know of Thurman, having spent so much time in India and is is with Dr. Right? That he really kind of he I would say that he was an an ethicist, a Christian ethicist he, he was really into mysticism. He was into really studying the studying who Jesus was and the teachings but not getting confined, if you will. And I walked gingerly and with great respect, don't want to be disruptive disrespectful to anyone who is a follower of his and identifies his as Christian. I mean, I think that he did identify as Christian. And he was very expansive in incorporating, I mean, I know when he came back from Myanmar in when he came in, when he started teaching and all of that, that he was incorporating what he learned. And he all he was very much into the occult, he was very much into, to psychic thinking, the belief of of metaphysical, a learning and energy, I mean, he was really, I have to say, he was ahead of his time, if he were alive. Now, he would be like in the, the new, I mean, I don't know, he might, if he would be identifying as Buddhist or anything. But I know, he'd be like in what people would call New Thought New Age. I mean, that's what folks would call him based on what he was doing. And into,
Host 31:36
I think it's really important to bear down a bit on these kinds of descriptions of healing and psychic powers and the occult and some of this other because those terms can easily be confused. And I think also the relationship between those practices to the more traditional forms of whether it's Christianity or Burmese Buddhism, in the case of Uber, can these are these are things that have been widely misunderstood? I think from both directions, it's fair to say of what their relation really is to it. So I think there's there's definitely things that we can say and explore about how mobikin Practice these in relation to the passionate meditation in relation to wider Burmese Buddhism, but let's start before we get to what his teacher was doing and his beliefs let's get to Leon right. What can you tell us more specifically about how Leon right took on these Christian mystic practice practices, as well as the the grounding of where these came from? Originally, kind of what what he was drawing from in these communities that was already existent and being practiced?
Aishah 32:39
Yeah, well, in there's an article titled, reaching into the beyond a psychic experience and by Judith Andrews, and it's a whole article on, on, on Dr. Wright and, and in the, in the article, there's, she really emphasizes that he, I identify for most of his life as a student of the quote, unquote, a cult, he was very much interested in life after death, he looked to the philosophies and, and funerary habits of peoples and countries in Africa, and in China, he he really, he looked at he studied vugen rituals in Haiti. And so he was just he was very open to really exploring what, what was out there, so to speak. And he was a professor of New Testament language and literature. So New Testament as in the Bible, the New Testament. So I'm, I'm personally just curious, like, how did he do all of that, particularly? Again, we're not talking about 2023. We're talking about the 60s and the 70s, like, how and the 50s as well, he started teaching in 45. So for him, he was there's a line in the article that Julie Andrews article where she writes that Dr. Wright insists that all specs, all aspects of man's reality, meaning humans reality, including occult phenomena, should be thoroughly studied in order to find the true nature of man. And he says, that's the only way of knowing God so he did believe in God. And he, he really didn't. He felt like Christianity, in some ways, failed to make differences in people's lives. He was just like, he believed that a lot of theologians were reticent to dealing openly and honestly with the concept of spirit in all of its ramifications. So I think that for him, he was you You know, I'm wanting to like really delve into what does what is the Holy Spirit? And not only focusing on it on Sunday morning? How do we, you know, what is it? What does it look like in all aspects of our lives? So and he was just really searching and open to different different religions and spiritual and sacred practices. So I would definitely say that foundationally he was a Christian, I don't want to say that he was not. And he incorporated, different practices, different teachings.
Host 35:45
That's great. That's, that's a really good picture. Let's move over to the side of Sayagyi U BA. Khin and I should preface this by saying that, for meditators in the blink of tradition, I think when it comes to this topic, the story that will constantly be cited, which is a true story, but I think that it narrows the reality of what was actually happening at that time, is Goenka describing that he wanted to take his first course was edgy became because he had a migraine headache, very debilitating migraine headaches that travel around the world was not able to cure Goenka was very wealthy and went to the best doctors and was still suffering from this. And he's famously tales how mobikin explained that you you don't go to a meditation course with him to cure a headache that might be a byproduct, but you go for ultimate liberation. And that's that's really a credo of the Glencoe organization today, the strong belief that this is, this practice is not for healing of psychosomatic or other types of ailments that we have in this life. It's for the deepest suffering that we have and liberation from that. And yet that is true is that is that also pushes aside the reality of the reputation and the experimentation, that's the IGB can did and even encouraged with different kinds of healing practices. And so I think this is, this is another area that's important to get into because this was such a commonality, these two shared, I should also reference that much of what we talked to will be should be credited to the work and research of Dan Stewart, that he's also informed us with some some of the research he's done has been incredible in this area. So so some of these stories and findings that we're discussing, have come from discussion with him or research that he shared with us. But go ahead and talk about your understanding of CI Juba, Ken's reputation as a healer.
Aishah 37:44
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, it's interesting, because I as somebody who was in the Goenka tradition for 17 years, and even spent some time in India, and you know, just really and done long courses. I mean, I feel like I can tell the story as if it was my own in terms of how going to G in encount came into the passion of meditation through ci g by Keynes. And so I've always had a an affinity for him, like a just a deep a debt of gratitude and love for biking. But I didn't really know a lot about him beyond the the story. And so I mean, I think for me, it wasn't until I started doing my internet research at the quality because it's that I am glad that you brought in Dan Stewart's work because he he's not he is doing like scholarly research. And so I'm really grateful for what he's done in on on on Dr. Right. But in terms of before even engaging with Dan, just the letters that are on the periodic T website kind of give a sense that there's some mysticism going on. In I mean, in between, or you know, like psychic energy going on between Dr. Wright and Obi Keane and I said that because they're, you know, there's the letters dated and 58. It's clear that Dr. Wright hasn't been to Burma, and that they're communicating and the way in which by keen writes to him around being with him, being with Him and do you know that as long as he's meditating and focusing on the nature that they are together, that I hadn't even considered that like that almost felt like it didn't feel like an anathema to read it, but it almost I was just like, Oh, is that even possible? You know, like that that was that that was just something like this For that didn't even feel like that that was possible like so. In this tradition, like it almost felt like that you're not practicing correctly now. And so that this this connection to to him also reading the book. What is the name of that book? Is it knowing a Nietzsche knowing nibbana? I'm trying to think of the name because I have it, but I don't have it in front of me that really annoying a Nietzsche in the way to Nibbana that's what it is. Where there are a few pages on Dr. Right? And in that you real and then also just the book overall, but But in those pages, you really, there's a sense of that there's healing happening. There is with Dr. Wright experience having, you know, really difficult, initially difficult times meditating, and how mother, Mother Syama has signed, it really helps him in terms of, you know, the battling forces. So and you just, you're not really hearing that in that in that way. I mean, you kind of hear it on long courses, if you take long courses in the tuition, but you definitely don't hear it on a regular 10 day course. So there that was, again, just reading the book, just kind of going oh, wow, there's some there's some work happening here. There's some there's some there's some healing inner inner energy work happening, dare I say?
Host 41:39
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the other thing that those letters indicate, in addition to those that kind of psychic connection and and mystical aspect, that you don't not only do not get in the Glinka tradition today, but it's actually at least on the surface level, I think there's a bit of a doublespeak on the surface level, certainly. There's, there's, there's a real desire to steer away from that and really speak against it, even though in our circles, there's there's sometimes another belief that's expressed, but I think another thing about those letters is just the unmistakable absolute love and affection these two men have for each other. I mean, it blew me away reading that of just the the words that are used, and the expressions that are that are put down there the there's just an unmistakable love between these two men that's just stunning to read.
Aishah 42:28
Oh, it's it is like, it's palpable. I mean, it's like, like, I mean, I actually wet the first time I read it, I was like, Wow, it's so beautiful in turn. And, and, um, yeah, it's, it kind of, it made me at that time long for a relationship like that with the Spirit. Like, that's, you know, I, you know, just to have someone who, I just wasn't feeling it, I feel it now just thinking about it. I'm like, just that, that deep connection. And, and you can see that it was, it was it was, it was a two way street. It wasn't uni directional. Yeah, that there. I mean, I mean, Dr. Wright's very accomplished man in the world, was had nothing but reverence called by King Guru Ji, you know, teacher, but the loving teacher, you know, and Ooba Keynes writing him and calling him Dr. Right, but also having nothing but respect for him, you know, like, it's just, it's really, the letters. It's, I think it's just one it's too one, what, two letters, but it's just, it's so beautiful, it makes me long. For more to what you know, I mean, just reading that,
Host 43:49
it feels beyond a worldly love, you know, it feels a yawn down something, something of just a physical affection for one another, but it feels like like this, this this deep, otherworldly connection that they've developed. And I think also, the bravery of the vulnerability that they both express just blew me away that just unfettered and unafraid to just have this pure love that's been expressed back and forth, of this connection that they share for development and purity. And then obviously, not just the love and affection they have for each other. But how that is then manifested towards their mission in wanting to I don't want to over exaggerate this, of just wanting to, you know, save the world or bring light to humanity or something like that. That's not what's expressed, but more of this desire to carry this inner development and purification to others that they might also experience in it. So it's like this, the special thing they share together through this inner development and connection that's been made that can then manifest towards bringing others into this net and helping others to develop as well. Yeah,
Aishah 44:58
and thank you for real really emphasizing the other, you know, the, the depth of, of their love and you know that this that we're really and I speak as a queer person. So this is not like, you know, any kind of homophobia in terms of saying that this is not that this is like surpassing kind of that the human love like Yeah, it's really a deep spiritual love. It's like it's it's meta, it's like how I envision meta vision. It's like, it's just, and I think for me, and I just, I feel called to go here, I think, I feel like I'm in that I mean, he he became an ancestor he, that is Dr. Right in 96. So there, I didn't even come into learning, the passionate through Goenka, G until 202. So there's no way that I would have met him in so I want to be clear, simultaneously, I think the way in which going to G and Leeson the discourses and even I had opportunity to hear him speak in person in India, that he talked about his teacher with love. Like I really kind of thought like, yeah, he was the only one. You know, and so that, you know, like that. I didn't, though. I there was I didn't grasp that. There were others. I really, I thought that he was the only he was the chosen one. He was the only one. That's my language. I didn't say that. He said this, but that's how I felt. So to read this communique between Dr. Wright and CRG by keen, it just blew me away, you know? And again, that just kind of because it was your the picture that you shared, and this is the link to the letters, that then that's what really I was like, Okay, this isn't just like somebody who likes. And again, I'm thinking in the way in which I understood meditation retreats, took a course right. I was like, oh, no, this is a deep connection. And so then that's why in terms of like learning about the other teachers, you know, I didn't learn anything. I didn't study and go fight, you know, the other people who are keen, appointed, you know what I'm saying? Like, because I really I didn't grasp that there were there was there was more than one. And I only thought that there was there was one I mean, I knew that there were others there. But I didn't understand I just didn't understand. I was just tunnel vision, focusing in one way grateful for what I learned and also grateful during that time and grateful to be able to, you know, expand, expand my vision.
Host 47:36
Yeah, well, also, I mean, we've only been hearing one story. So it's natural that and only hearing one narrative. That's the narrative, you would you don't know anything outside of that. But I think that what also becomes clear, and it's become clear to me in these conversations I've been having with this person who was at IMC, which had not yet been released. But one of the things that she emphasized, which made a lot of sense, but I'd never thought of before was that. Initially, when Obi can appointed his teachers, well, before that he actually didn't so much have an intention of appointing teachers. He wanted to go himself across the world and teach but once the military coup happened in 62, and especially after 65, when he became a monk with WebU, Sayadaw, according to inform it I'm speaking with, he then realized he was never going to get a chance to go in his lifetime. And so he needed to find his students in different parts of the world that can go in his stead, and and could spread and share the teachings because we can realize he could not and as this person went on to explain, Glencoe was appointed in he was off to India, it was appointed as he was going to take care of his mom and teach a course there. And other teachers such as Leon, right, were appointed and other Western teachers, John Coleman or Robert Harvey hover, Ruth Ennis, and these others were appointed in different parts of the world and Europe and America. And it was never intended from the outside and from the outset, that Ooba kit or that, that that we can expected that Blanca would launch this mission in India and then go around the world it was expected that he might be in India, he's Indian, you might have an America American that's doing things in the US or, you know, they're part of a certain community or background or, or field of study. And same in Europe. And, and so, you know, it was when you when you look at that time, those teacher appointments and what they meant, there was a sense that they might be able locally to spread those teachings in their area, as it so happened Glencoe was just his proficiency in terms of what he was able to set up and the structure in which he was able to move, not just cover all of India, but then go beyond India, it completely exceeded what those initial expectations were. I think that that mobikin And everyone at IMC would have been immensely pleased that he was able to do that. So it's not to say that he went beyond his mandate by any means. It's just meant To say that the initial understanding or intention was that these different people in different pockets of their own local community would just make a difference in their local area. And that and, and according to their first their proficiency, their parmi is being a qualified student to be able to teach. But then in terms of where they were and what they could do in that context.
Aishah 50:23
Yeah, that makes perfect sense, which then kind of brings the question of, like, how Dr. Wright got lost and all of that, right. So like we you know, we're talking about Goenka. And, you know, and we're talking about Oba Keens, you know, what we understand or perceive as his message. Mission. And because we know that mother Syama has set up centers in you know, she was in UK, but there's also centers here, you know, so, but it's just kind of, and so with, even with all of that, like somehow. Leon right, Dr. Wright was not, it's just not part of that, of that, of that continuum. And I do we I mean, I definitely think it's because even though he taught what he learned from bikini, I don't think that he identified as Buddhist.
Host 51:21
Right? Well, let's go back. Also, I realized that when we were talking about Uber kins reputation as a healer, we kind of talked around it, I realized we didn't get into the meat of it, just to return to that question, what is your understanding in terms of, especially in terms of how it broke your own initial perceptions? Is it going to meditate? Or what did you come to learn that of how we can practice some of these healing arts?
Aishah 51:45
Um, well, I, what I, what I am practicing, I feel like, you know, I mean, what I practice, what I learned was that I mean, I also have been in conversation, and I felt like I have to just be mindful, but with folks who have worked with Dr. Right, and that they're that, if you that, that white cane is with you at all times, if you are a student of his, and that you can call on him while you're meditating. And that he can help you fight off forces, whatever those forces are, you know, negative forces and speaking. So that was one thing that, you know, I, I learned, and, and I was kind of taken aback because I think that for me, it's always been like, no rights, no rituals, no rights, no rituals, no rights, no rituals, you know, that's not the case. Now, I want to say but when I was in the, the, the Goenka when I was practicing exclusively in Goenka for 17 years, like I was just very much like, aware of that. So just this, this, it was very much just kind of like observe and be with the nature at all times. And so to to know or understand that, that I mean, while there's truth to that, I mean, a lot of troops of what that in terms of biking that's it wasn't just, it wasn't only that, that will be keen definitely believed and taught that he had forces and he had powers that could be called upon and used to support one on their on their journey, their spiritual journey, their healing journey.
Host 53:41
Yeah, right. And that and from my interview with soon to Kin, this is the daughter of Bucha Antoon, the first Supreme Court Justice of Burma who introduced who was friends with Blanca and introduced him to say how God can leading him to take the course that's an episode that's been published for those that want to listen. She references that one of the reasons why I asked her why did your father recommend mobikin over all these other teachers, and she gave several reasons why he was recommended over some of the other great meditation teachers of the day in Burma. But one of them was because he had a public reputation as a healer that was known at the time that he was practicing the healing arts there are many stories of miraculous healing that he had, he had overcome he had he had been successful with both himself and and others and the most famous of which is when he had some eye infection where he became couldn't leave his home for couldn't go outside during the day for something like six months because his because I was so sensitive and couldn't be exposed to light and he healed himself. He was able to restore his vision. And so the stories were rife. This does not negate what Goenka said I mean, it just gives a wider context to it and doesn't really make Luddism of what Goenka says it just puts it in this context that yes, you do not go to Who begins meditation to heal yourself, that's very clear how you make sure you know what the priority is. But once you know what the primary priority is, you don't need to dismiss it. And you can be curious and explore it. And we see examples of that from all over because life that are not so well documented.
Aishah 55:15
And I want to just kind of I want to I want to bring something in that I think is important that I hope you know, because there's a lot of debates and stuff happening in African American spaces, theological, theological spaces, around you know, the occult and stuff and in particularly Christian spaces. And so I really think that it's also it's really an I forgot to also name and I think this is important for particularly for any African American listeners of this podcast that Dr. Wright was also a member of the NAACP and of the Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, which is the fraternity African American fraternity. And Dr. Martin Luther King was also a member of it, but I share I just want to share all this because here's somebody who was teaching New Testament in at Howard University, one of the preeminent HBCUs historically black college universities in this country. And also bringing in the occult bringing in because bringing in healing energies as well, because it's not there's also there is what you know what Ooba keen, and we're not to take away from Ooba keen at all, but just kind of put that continuum that I think that that was I think that that played a role in empowering Dr. Wright to then do a lot of healing work. What I think is really powerful around you know, Obi Keens history legacy of healing is that it didn't just stop with him that I know, have learned I should say that, you know, Dr. Wright also is known as a healer, and that he healed minis people did really incredible healing work, and they're good across the country and not just I mean, in this dis traverse race and gender. There was one black woman who was very who's a scholar and a minister University Unitarian Universalist minister. And, and she, she studied with Dr. Wright and was very ill and definitely credits him and perhaps among others, but definitely credits him for for healing her. Her name is Yvonne Sian. And so it's just you know, and I was just like, Wow, and so I didn't you know, I didn't know the name or there was no reason for me to necessarily know the name. And as I, you know, learned more specifically from Dan Stewart's research Yvonne science son is a very well known entertainer known named Dave Chappelle. So just in terms of someone we could directory from. So we've got seen doctor right to buy it to Dave Chappelle. It's like whoa,
Host 58:13
I mean, the Uber can Dave Chappelle connection, who would have ever imagined
Aishah 58:18
it's like, what? And again, and so he has this whole this techniques this this healing technique, he being doctor, right. I don't know I never practiced it or studied it. I know that our friend and Jonathan Crowley actually purchased the CD from one of his students and I think I listened to some of it but it's just kind of hard to grasp it. I feel like it doesn't translate easily in it doesn't translate easily through through the CD, but I'm just I'm really glad that a lot of that had had been documented and that was from the the the audio. It was a CD audio program by Thomas Ashley Farland known as nama Deva. So it was his it was known as Dr. Wright's cleanse cleaning out techniques. So that Yeah, so there's just so I don't know if that is the same technique that he that he being Dr. Wright used with Dave Chappelle his mom, I don't know any of that. And I hope someone's I hope that there's somebody capturing, documenting this history because, you know, people are getting older and you know, it's just really important to get this history. One interesting thing that I've just also want to just kind of just throw in is like I moved to DC, I'm from Philadelphia moved to Washington, DC, and again, not to live with my part. Nurse moved into her home and which is a neighborhood that historically was known for, you know, African American professors at at at Howard University lived in this area, as well as folks who worked in government that's changing because of gentrification, but I share all that is that Dr. Wright's house is like three blocks from where I live. So, for me, and in my own psychic, cosmic way, like I just kind of feel like and, I mean, I moved in June, May, June of 2020. And I find out about him in toys, like for me, I was like, Oh my gosh, he was like, waiting for me to come here. You know, it's just this interesting thing. So I have kind of like walked side is like, wow, he lived here. This was the place that he called home and I know that he has adult children who are now my parents age and so I that's just something like, I feel like you know, the stories and images and, and stuff. I did. There is a a womanist are there a womanist listserv, womanist theologians and so womanist is a term coined by the writer Alice Walker, in really in response to how historically feminism was something that was kind of ascribed like prescribed as a white woman's identity. So woman this was very much a for for black women, women of color. So there's a woman is theologian, a listserv there was now it's a Facebook group, private page, Facebook group, but listserv that lasted for years founded by two womanist preeminent women Istio theologians, the Reverend Dr. Emily Townes and Reverend Dr. Vinita Weems. I shared this to say that when I was like coming up against walls on the internet, again during COVID shutdown, I was like, How can I find out about Dr. Right? And so I thought about I went to this, this the listserv and I just basically shared what I knew the little tip is that I you know, and this was like, Is there anyone who knows about him? And and I was connected to by to Reverend Dr. Cheryl Anderson, whose father studied with Dr. Right at Howard University in the 70s. And then she connected me with Reverend Esther Holloman, who studied with Dr. Wright and actually married him in his second marriage and his first marriage. So it was just really wonderful to have the opportunity to talk with Reverend Holloman, who has really who knew him who went on his retreats. And so I got a sense of what she learned and, and some of the things that she shared in terms of the practices. I was like, Oh, this is Anapana. You know, I know it right away, as soon as you know, at least, as I learned on upon the through glenkinchie. Like, it was just very much. It was I was like, wow, wow. Now, she didn't describe it as on apana at all. Like, that's not what she called it. But when I asked her, you know, to explain it to me, and all you know, and we were just sharing, which is such a very open conversation.
Host 1:03:23
Yeah, it's really remarkable. And it really, I think it it just just to go back to that point before, it just really challenges the more simplistic narrative that we think today of the which is not just in the case of the meditation movement. This is the way most of us understand history is this through simplistic narratives, that it then takes scholarship to break down and to give that that greater nuanced view, some of which that scholarship has taken place, and its scholarship everywhere is always an ongoing process. But in the case of the mindfulness movement, again, that it was these hippies, mostly white hippies, that were either either became part of the green commission or part of the IMS mission, and that these were the carriers of what is brought to us today. And that really ignores the non white non western non hippie carriers and, and messengers of this movement that came sometime before and that, that, that, that predates all of this and that we're functioning in their own way. And that gives this and it's so interesting, as you say, that perspective you bring to it, that as we in 2023, as we look at how to have a more diverse landscape of the meditation movement and organizations, both teachers and students, it's just it blows your mind to think that we're you know, that that question itself is, is questionable that that question itself is, is unreliable, how can we have a more diverse landscape? That question is assuming that it hasn't ever been diverse, it's assuming that that that it's been these this primarily white progressive middle class etc that have have been that, that were playing this critical role in the startup of it. And, you know, really they I think that comes from the fact that they that these people were the ones who kind of built up structures, which we know today. So that to be fair, that's, that's where that bias comes from. But it's also important to break that down and understanding that, that it's not fair to say that this has not seen its diversity from the inception. And even before the date of what we think the inception was that there are all these other stories that go into this. And I'm just just off my mind, as we're saying this, I'm wondering, like, what other what other examples of there, what other examples kind of breaking this model are there and one that comes to mind is, is, is the interest in some Israelis in the 1950s. I mean, there's this famous story, it's also not been very well documented. And not to get too into it here. But just to tease it, because I hope to do a podcast on this eventually. But there's this incredible story of David Ben Gurion, the Israeli leader, the famous Israeli leader, that what that when Israel and Burma had very close connections in the 1950s, based on their their similar independence movements, that he always had this deep interest in Buddhist meditation, and that he arranged some something crazy like a three week state visit during a difficult time in Israeli history, to Burma, where he insisted on being able to, to learn Buddhist meditation. And so he knew arranged who knew was the pret the prime minister of Burma, who knew turned over his house to to Ben Gurion and arranged I think it was either Mahasi say it himself or say to Pandita, to give him a private retreat. And, and, and to learn that Buddhist meditation and one of his top ministers whose name I can't remember at the moment, but one of his top ministers went to IMC and learn from mobikin. And just to read just to throw one story out here, but there's just just to indicate that there's so much nuance there's so much that breaks down this story of who we, of who we look at the primary Western people who got this and you know, even when you hear from their words, like when you hear Joseph Goldstein and Jack Kornfield, are some of the senior teachers in the blank organization, talk about learning the Dharma and bringing it back, they do describe themselves as the first ones, they do describe themselves as the early explorers, and the early the early explorers, on on on in Asia, and then the early kind of, I don't know what the term would be the the messengers that set up shop in America being in the West, being the first ones to find a way here. And that's not true, you know, they did set up structures, and they maybe did that more effectively. And that's why we know about them. But it's not true that there weren't other messengers and other ways, working in other ways that may not have set up structures that were as permanent and reach as many people, but we're not insignificant. No,
Aishah 1:07:50
I think that that was just first I didn't know that history about. So thank you for sharing the history that you shared. And I think that it's, it's, it's a little disturbing, honestly, I mean, you know, because we, I have focused my, most of my, like, my kind of like, oh, how come I didn't know this in the Goenka tradition? Because that's where I was for 17 years. But I don't want to I mean, it's the same can be said in terms of in the Insight tradition, which is where I am now. And that, that there isn't there isn't this acknowledgement. And, and it's, it's, it's very disconcerting, it's very painful. And honestly, it just in the name of the teachings itself, regarding you know, like, in okay, you might, you know, like, because I'm still like, how I find it hard to believe that people don't know, we that I see people I'm talking about the early days about Leon, right, because when I when I do the research, just I'm talking about it, nothing deep, not I'm talking about on the internet, his name is listed in the list of people like it's not like, so I you know, that, um, who, who, by Kane appointed, it's there. It's not like, oh, they left that out or whatever. And there's, I mean, Leon is historically particularly a name that many African Americans unite us. I don't, I don't I mean, I'm sure there's some white Leon's, but I know that that tends to be a black name in some ways, but there are others there was nothing nothing that would say oh, that this is an African American man. So I mean, a lot of these people are gone now, but I'm just like, Did John Coleman said I mean, that that in terms of knowing Him because they come later they came after? After Ooba keen, I mean after, right, but how is it not? How is his name? How do we not know him? Like in just in the stories, how do we not know and particularly after what you shared earlier around, the person who you're you know, had been talking to If she heard the stories about Leon right now, perhaps in that it perhaps they didn't know he was black. Even if they didn't know he was African American, how is his name still not part of the story?
Host 1:10:14
I guess my take on that is that it no one's name is really part of the story outside of what that tradition says. I don't I don't know so much about IMS, but I'm sure they have their own their own stories that they tell but certainly in the blanket tradition, you know, the the story is going a story and going because story about even when he talks about CIDB kin or those other teachers, it's always through going his lens through his relationship through his through the connection that they had. And so, you know, I, I think that that because that organization has, has seen itself as the logical progression of what who became did there's just not room to really be all that interested or explore those other offshoots, which were doing their own thing. That's, that's at least been my take on it.
Aishah 1:11:06
Okay, I mean, that. Yeah, I hear that in terms of the I hear that. I definitely hear that. I guess it's more and I don't I'm not like I'm new in Insight tradition. I don't you know, when I say new, like, 2020 20 Yeah. 2020. So and it's 23. So I just kind of, I think, I just wonder, like, with Jack and Joseph and Sharon, or, you know, like, was there any, you know, did anybody know, and there's no need, we don't have to spend time on that. But that, that's just the stuff. And as you just said, regardless, even if they didn't know about Leon, right, or whatever, around that, but just that kind of that the story of like, oh, they went, they found it, they brought it back. And listen, I am a beneficiary, I want to be really clear. Going up bringing it. And now you know, Jack, Joseph and Sharon, bringing it I mean, many years later, I mean, I didn't come through them. But in terms of that, so I don't, I'm very ungrateful and appreciative. And it's also just kind of like, what is the what is the full story? You know, which is why I appreciate this podcast, because you are really, really creating the story now only around, you know, the the Western lineage of, of Buddhism, but also just shedding light on the horrors that are happening in Myanmar?
Host 1:12:32
Yeah, and I think that I would just, I would just look at the other teachers that are lesser known teachers that were around at that time. And there's not much about any of them. I think that that Dr. Lyon, right stands out in the sense that there's almost nothing about him. So you're looking at very little versus nothing. You know, you look at John Coleman, there's a there's a short book that he wrote that is on some people's radar, you look at you look at Robert hover there, there are some writings and recordings he's given, but they're very hard to find, and there's very few people interested in it. And you know, Ruth Dennison, there's, there's someone did write a biography of her so there's, there's that for the community that wants it. But But, and she also did set up a center to be fair, I mean, you do have to look at, I think, in looking at how these people are known to history, you do have to look at what they actually did. And I think of you by virtue of setting up a center that people go to you people become interested in who that person is that set the center up and, but, but really, I just see, you know, when I look at the going organization itself, I just look at where's the interest in anything, you know, like, whereas anything else that's outside the lineage that that has gotten any attention and even at the lineage there's such kind of cardboard cutout one dimensional figures of, you know, stories, like kind of a couple couple stories that just define what we think we know of them. I just don't see much intellect intellectual curiosity of any of these people, even the people that are at the forefront I don't see much intellectual curiosity about and I think that that kind of that that's a part of this kind of spiritual arrogance of feeling. Such a confidence in this so called pristine purity of the lineage and the teachings that are being expressed that there's anything outside of it is just more is and this was kind of when I would discover these things and talk to people in the organization. Very few people were as excited as I was about some of the things I was finding the sense I got when I would relay it was was cute. You know, that's, that's, that's cute. That's a nice thing to know like, oh, that's that's sweet. That's if if if something that you're bringing to them is in line or not threatening to the tradition just kind of inspiring and pleasant then it's it's it's cute and not much more and if something is at odds with what the tradition is carrying, then it's you know, then it kind of goes to that that spiritual arrogance of like well, we there's there's no real need to explore this or look into this because we already have the right practice. And so I just see his part of the story certainly not whole, but part of the story and being lost history at least in history of in where he fits into this tradition of just kind of the either non intellectualism or anti intellectualism. I think that's a part of it. But then but I do think and I do think there's a wider issue at play that you tap into of what it means to have a black teacher appointed before the March on Washington and and decades, if not more than half century before we're struggling with the appointment of black teachers. Now. Another I think that's that's another element in there, I think another element we have to bring in is the difference of the generations. You know, I really do I think that, that the, the hippie generation just did not understand the older one and vice versa. And this is something that I'm really absorbing through these talks I'm having with this Western, this westerner who is at IMC is, is how big that generation divide was and how and we have to say the hippie generation was somewhat self centered and self absorbed and in terms of their, the baby boomers have of just their their importance and and their role. And I think that that they're you know, one of the beautiful things I've heard and I I've heard this from all sides, it's actually I'm just working on something now that has brought this out is that on one eye, this this woman who went to IMC, who is not at the hippie generation. And and then another interview I did with Michael Stein, who is who was very much a hippie, he was involved in the Glencoe movement. And I asked both of them, both of them talked about just this divergence and culture clash of what it was like, for these wild hippies, that no one understood what they're wearing and talking and doing. They're just never seen anything like it. And then either, you know, Burmese or, or, or, or conservative Indian Hindus or even Westerners of an older generation, kind of like what it was like, what was it like when it came when these people came together? Like how do they understand each other, both of them said the same thing. It was remarkable. Michael Stein said, as soon as we walked into the course and closed our eyes, it was like, we're all there in unity, we're all there together, it just doesn't matter. No one cares about this. And this woman who was at IMC, this western woman who was not a part of the hippie movement, same thing. I mean, she's talking about how they, they, they, they they don't bathe and they smell and they are wearing as wild clothing shields understand them in all of this, like really expressing like, how it odd she is. But then she says the same thing. When we sit down, we're all one we're all together. So on one hand, you do have that kind of solidarity and community when you're closing your eyes and practicing spiritual development. But you know, when you're when you're organizing courses and structures and administration and such else, like these are really very different people. Color division, certainly, but also generationally of how differently they would have approached the world. I think that also has to be thrown in there.
Aishah 1:17:55
Yeah. And you know, I have to just say that, as, you know, Generation X 54, and daughter of baby boomers, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo, my father spent 30 months in prison for refusing to go to Vietnam. And, and, and so and I shared that, that there's also something for me, I have to say some level of privilege to kind of slowly and surely let me also say I was raised Sufi Muslim, and my mother's teacher was from Sri Lanka. And then when my father came out of prison, when he was released from prison, they were still married at the time, I was six months when he went in, when he was released, he went, he went to India and spent like, four months there and then went to, to Sri Lanka as well. So I, there's something that I have, I have to touch upon, and I credit a, a Dharma sister friend, who also is a child of activist, Jewish white woman who, whose family is in the Weather Underground, and who's very involved in Insight tradition. And, you know, we've talked about this and it's kind of like, in many ways, like a lot of folks left in, you know, to have these spiritual experiences to you know, you know, just and then when they came back was like, you know, late 70s, early 80s was the era of the Reagan Reaganomics so they missed a lot of the the racial justice kind of movement stuff on the ground at that time, like and so and then they came back and set up the centers grateful for the center's but I think that there's also this like this lack of, of also, I mean, cultural understanding, yes, in terms of lack of cultural understanding. On the one hand, on the other hand, clearly these centers are rooted in in a in Asian traditions and practice spiritual practices and their teachers are Asian. But yeah, that that was it, but everything else who was not and so I just think that there's something also there in terms of just wandering around with Dr. Wright, who by that By the time that they were coming in, he was like, grandparents. So I'm thinking about me like, would I be? I mean, now in my 50s, I wouldn't be, I probably wouldn't even have I don't have a grandparent, but I'm just thinking like me and my early 20s. How would I do somebody in their 50s? And how would I engage with them and you know, all of that. And so, and for him, he probably he didn't need the quote unquote, a center, he had the classroom, he was a professor, he had teachers, students all of the time coming in and out. So So while he did have retreats, because I did talk to Reverend Holloman, and she talked about the retreats. I don't he didn't need when I say me, I don't want to act like the other people needed it. I think that he felt like he was able to engage and spread the word, whatever the word is, let me just say, through through that those means and and also probably think, it seems to me while he definitely did have some white students, that his commitment, his the predominant work was with black people. And at that time, that was not the the interest, or, you know, I don't want to say interest, I don't even think it was in their purview of because yeah, you know, I just have these the founders, if you will, or early folks in western Buddhist practices. Yeah.
Host 1:21:16
And I think that the people that he was teaching, including Dave Chappelle, his mother and others are not just teaching but using healing practices, who knows to what extent they realize they were learning something influenced by Burmese Buddhist meditation or Burmese meditation master. I think another thing, I'm just thinking of this now I've been formulating this thought, I'm not quite sure how to express it. And it just came to me were you your insight in terms of that, that we can did something all those years ago that we're still struggling with today. The other the really powerful kind of corollary or byproduct of that insight that you had is this sense of agency. And when we're looking now at trying to create a more diversified landscape in the meditation movement, you're inherently in that is a recognized power structure that it is, it's probably primarily white teachers and organizers and administrators, that are trying to make changes to allow more diversity in but that is still putting in the protagonist, position of agency, these white figures that are through their magnanimous attitude or progressive desires or a desire for inclusivity or diversity, whatever it is, they are the ones taking the action to open it up and to ensure that, but but this is, this is missing the point that there is an earlier generation earlier examples. In the case of this conversation, Dr. Leon, right, where there is there's not a sense of asking for permission, it's not a sense of asking to be understood asking to be included making changes, you're you're not asking someone else with their agency to allow you to be let in. You're you're not there's no gatekeeper. I mean, this is this is someone who this is an African American figure through his own life and practice and relationship and service and mission is not asking anyone else for permission. He is the one who is leading this. And that's a different dynamic than today. Certainly there could be cases today of people of people of color that have that have gone outside the big structures to have their own experiences in Asia and come back. So not to say that that's not happening, but to but where it is happening within those structures. That's different from this example we're seeing with Dr. Leon, right. No,
Aishah 1:23:30
I completely I was definitely that was the next thing I was gonna say. Because I mean, Pamela, I owe you today who is an associate editor of lion's roar when I first told her about Dr. Right, maybe that was 21. I, you know, you know, she immediately said, Well, you, you need to write an article about him like she you know, and so it took it was a lot of different, you know, configurations. And, and as a result of that conversation lines were did a whole series of, you know, talking about black Buddhist ancestors of which Dr. Wright was one of them. But I think that there is something I think that there's something to be said, because since I mean, that article has been published, I have sent it out. I mean, I, as you know, I did a talk on it. That's, it's recorded. It's on YouTube. It's on SoundCloud. It's on Vimeo, I've created a Google Doc. I mean, it's just it's just kind of like, and I kept thinking there was going to be more momentum around it. Honestly. I don't expect that in the Goenka tradition because there you know, it's only going to but definitely in Insight spaces. Because I do think that it it. When we learn these things. It's just kind of like when, you know, tearing down monuments, and that might statues and Confederate soldiers and stuff like in 2020. And all of that was that when when we learned that NGS, it changes the narrative, it changed. We have to revisit this narrative. Because it's, there's, it does again, that's why I started by saying I am grateful for the centers that have been established and where I'm from which I learned in practice. I, you know, so I'm grateful for that. And at the same time, like what what it admit I mean, it means a lot now. But when I think about in my early days of practicing, if I knew that there was an African American theologian who lived in Burma for two years, who studied with the my teachers at the time teacher, and then was appointed in 1963, particularly as somebody whose parents were in the civil rights movement, like that's where they met, I am the I am here because of the civil rights movement, because they wouldn't have met there. So just how empowered and not empowered in a kind of like, but just kind of like feeling like, Yes, this is also part of my legacy, as a black woman Buddha's like, here is this, you know, and uberchic, a deeper connect, I've always had a connection to banking, like I have an image of him on on my blog for years, years long before I heard of, and I don't know why I was drawn to him. I don't know, because I only knew him through Blanca, but I just would always been drawn. And then when I learned about this, I just my heart opened even wider, because I was like, wow, wow.
Host 1:26:31
And so then when we look at not only the individual relationship between newbiggin and Leon, right, but also where all the different tendrils that that would expand to and unpredictable manifestations that would turn to we've talked about some of them, but there's another big one. That's, that's pretty incredible to share how this thread kept going. And that's Colet. So.
Aishah 1:26:54
Yeah, that was I'm so glad you well, you know, you're the person who first shared with me, you've been, you know, but the what I learned and learn through Dan Stewart's research is that oh, Colet, and you know, we can this is a conversation, not just Aisha stating facts that she's learned from other from other research. That will go les was here in the US. And he comes from let let me let's back up. We'll go les was a comes from as many in Burma, very staunch Buddhist family, and, but was here in the US and, you know, didn't wasn't following through on the studies at that time was just here and he heard Dr. Wright give a talk at the embassy. And for for Colet, it was how this person who this is not his his ancestry this is that this is that his you know, in terms of as a Buddhist or is not Asian, that his understanding of the Buddha Dharma really impacted Colet the so much so that he went back to, to Burma to study is with study at IMC at international meditation center. And then we know who Colet is. I mean, in so many ways, it's back again to like what would what would Western Buddhism be without equally right? You know, in terms of his, his work with God, gosh, is it Maha seaside Tao? And so in terms of the the translations and writing so, it there's this way of like, it's like, in black cultures in Africa, and specifically African American cultures, and I'm sure definitely coming from West Africa, there is the sankofa verb, of where you know you and you have to look back in order to go forward. That it's that we learned from our past that it impacts our future. So it's like you've got this cycle. Right. Well, that key so like, oh, Colet doesn't, doesn't get it neat, initially, from where he is and isn't he comes here to the US. All that keen teaches, right, right teaches others in this country, as many as 10,000, folks. And then OCO. Les is one of the people who he's teaching or what receives this teaching and then goes back to to Burma to study and then become this incredible Buddhist scholar. Yeah,
Host 1:29:41
it's amazing. It's amazing and to fill in some of those parts of the story. I should first mention credit that where the story comes from about Ooh, Colet, finding Dr. Wright giving this speech at the US Embassy or the not the embassy because it's in DC. No, I think it was I think you might give me the speech of the Burmese embassy. This comes from a, a famous 1990 thesis by Gustav Helpmann that covers a lot of the meditation movement in Burma. And that's just a footnote that always drew my attention and always fascinated me. But, ooh, Colet, so Colet came from this very elite family, very educated. And he himself was, was after independence was playing different roles. I think he was the rector of Mandela University and any number of kind of roles he played in education and government and such just really widely respected. And this was a time when Burmese Buddhism was going through different shifts. I think one shift was moving it into this, as we've talked about this lay meditation movement that hadn't been done before. But another was, in this as Colet as described in this post independence era. There's this feeling that they're now modern and part of this modernity was kind of shedding these vestiges of this traditional Burmese Buddhist belief, which no longer served the point for the modern world. They were embracing with their new agency in the new country, they were now part of a cosmopolitan, sophisticated environment where as Rangoon especially was at that time in the 1950s. And Buddhism was something of the past. And so he smoked cigarettes, he drank alcohol, he went to fancy parties and and other things. And he he really saw Buddhism as this thing he wanted really the thing to let go of in order to embrace the Modern Age. I believe that he was something like he was next door neighbors with Uber kin or maybe next door to IMC. There was some close association and most of his friends would most most most of his family was going to IMC and studying under Uber kin, and they were encouraging him to come and he always resisted it. He said No, I'm not going to something in the past and moving forward. And then it was on that trip to DC, where they he's being told about this lecture that that Dr. Wright is giving and goes and attends and he talks about just being absolutely stupefied that this as you say this American from such a different background, has gone to back to his home country and practices and gain something something you know and Dr. Wright being you know, a diplomat and a scholar and you know, just someone have such a such a high such a high mind such a high level that that someone like him of his standing of his accomplishment, was able to find value in something related to Burmese Buddhist meditation, he felt ashamed he felt he felt shocked and ashamed that, that he had missed this and that he had discarded it and it was really, you know, his reengagement back into the late meditation movement kicking off and what he was doing and his association with Mahasi say it and say I do begin, that was all predicated on you say as Dr. Wright through Dr. Wright's words and seeing that he had missed something, because of this guy had found something there must be something there that was his sense. And then he went back and he he, as you say, did a number of translations was a was a Buddhist scholar worked with was in the the Mahasi tradition and also also in the who became tradition. I'm not exactly sure what role he was playing and he was just such a respected and well rounded figure that he was he was just went to met with a number of these different great teachers and serve different places in there. He was also you know, when Sayagyi u BA. Khin went to ordain under what we say it 1965 It was the only time that he became was ever a monk he was so poor and childhood, that unlike the the tradition for most Burmese Buddhist boys, he had never ordained before ever in childhood. Most Burmese boys are doing twice he had never ordained once. He he went to ordain under wet with WebU Sayadaw and Indian men in 1965. And it was a top secret it was something that was that was kept secret from everyone else because he wanted his he wanted to have his own private time and private ordination, private time as a monk and not have fanfare with it. There was one person that not only he told, but he asked to come with them and be a monk and that was Colet. Colet went with mobikin to become a monk and there's a famous interview that Kobe did it's kind of an underground interview I'm not sure who did it. I'm not sure if you've heard it but it's um, sometimes our new cola is live some Western meditator had met who Colet in Burma and had asked him in detail about his trip to engine Ben with with Uber kin to ordain and he describes it. It's almost like a podcast before podcast existed. It's it's just like a 45 minute conversation that's so fascinating and glucoamylase warmth and vivacious SNESs and, and, and it just exudes the interview. I mean, you just you hear his laughter and his and the way he talks about, you know, being around U ba Khin and learning under WebU Sayadaw and meditation that time it's just it's so beautiful. And so I had I had known anyone who's in Burma that knows anything knows that I do Colet in his family I mean his his nieces my my authentic use Matangi is was one of Aung San su cheese. I mean, I think it was their secretary or something she's been. She herself has been an author and a painter and a feminist and, and, and has done so many things. I mean, that's just one finger who collates family. So, you know who Colet and who Colet, specifically, as well as those around him are well known within Burma. So this is, this is not a figure that just, that's just kind of a side point in the story. This is this is someone famous and well regarded in his own right and to and I knew that, but to then hear that glucoamylase orientation back into Burmese Buddhism and the lay meditation movement taking off and his association with Ooba Ken and WebU and Mossy Seda, that this was all predicated on. A coincidentally being in DC to hear a doctor write speech. This blows the mind. This just blows the mind. I mean, like the Dave Chappelle story, it's just kind of a neat anecdote of a connection you don't expect but who Calais This is a reorientation, this is a, a redirection that in his life, which then went back into Burma, and did so many things within Burma, that came from that speech. I mean, this is just incredible. Exactly.
Aishah 1:36:11
And I thank you, thank you for filling in the gaps, because I get thank you for for, you know, for really laying it out on Joah. Because I, I mean, again, I feel like this, this is a whole new understanding a whole new conversation, a whole new reframing, of reframing based on Colet, it's a reframing because we could ask, what would have happened if he if Calais hadn't heard? Dr. Wright speak, we could actually ask, we could like, what is it's quite possible that, you know, life trajectories could have been very different and impacting all of us who are, you know, in these traditions are practicing, you know, what I'm saying? So, you know, definitely it the seed or the originator of the ce o McKean, in this in this instance. But in terms of how he planted the seeds, even in terms of going to, you know, we hear, you know, there's 450 centers around the world, how many people have gotten the seed of dama? You know, I could, you know, almost give it verbatim in terms of how I've heard that important story. But then, and, and, but and then there's, and it's not, but there's, there are other important stories that are not getting told, and and I think have to be lifted, lifted up. I mean, we have to revisit this now. I mean, that this is, you know, this is really, it's critical. It's critical. I mean, if I like had, if I was, like, fully funded, and like you sure you are fully funded into it, like, that's something I would really, actually would like to make a film more so than write a book, but did about that, because it's, it's so it's like, wow, I mean, I just hearing you talk, like, part of my side was like, I don't even I how do I even speak to that? It's just, it's so profound. And again, it goes back to the agency. Right, you know, because it's like, ooh, Colet, who is so revered, was was impacted by Leon, right? You know, we don't it's, it's who was impacted by by cane. I mean, even though my cane I feel like is not known in ways in which he should be known. So there's a at Spirit Rock Meditation Center, where I had the great opportunity to sit last year attend a meditation retreat. They're co taught by Joseph Goldstein and to Rob Williams and Kamala masters and knock away Kirby arrows and Walter op. And so during, you know, one of my walking periods or whatever, there's this gratitude hut. And they're in you go in and they're all of the teachers many of you know, and, and I think and that was let that was summer of 22. July, and I just, I just remember how heavy I felt. They had Marlene Dr. Marlene Jones, who was very black African American woman who was very instrumental in people of color sits in the in the Insight tradition and was it was maybe one of the first black teachers appointment maybe I'm not sure exactly. I don't know that history. And but just seeing all these images, and I don't including Ruth Dennison, including going to GE and and, and I understand that many of these folks were either teachers of of folks or friends in the context of of Marlene Dr. Marlene Jones. But I really felt I really was like, I want to picture right in here like Abby, I just it wasn't that moment. It was almost like took me out of my meditation in some ways, like as I was, you know, because I just kind of I felt like I felt really strongly that he is such a hidden figure like That's the words that I owe you today. Those are not my words, but just kind of like how invisible he is to, to this. I don't you know, movement, if you will. I don't movement feels a little weird to me come as a movement baby, racial justice movie but but that, you know that he he is just not known. And I'm really hoping you know in terms of the you know when Dan publishes his his work and and you know, maybe more people will will see my the recording that I did in terms of my talk on him. Definitely this podcast episode, I really hope that this will bring more interest, curiosity and attention to this incredible unsung hero.
Host 1:40:49
Absolutely. And I think what what's what's so powerful and beautiful about his story, again, going back to how we understand this history developing versus what we're actually seeing is that there's no there were no there's no mediator there is no gatekeeper that was that was facilitating this relationship. This was this was something directly that that he was experiencing, and then directly having the agency to carry out this mission as these beautiful letters that we've referenced between u BA, Khin and himself reference and that in and it just struck me that as we talk about, like Legacy and influence and such, I think there could be an argument made that I think it's a nuanced argument, you have to look at both sides. But I think there could be an argument made that if, if a teacher is teaches certain people during his lifetime, but then the mission kind of, you know, there's no structure around him. And those people he teach, don't go on to anything that we know of, and there's no, nothing permanent, that's created to that legacy that yes, this is important. But it's also something that I don't know died out or was, was happened in kind of a certain space. And it's still important to note, but it also has to be looked side by side, those, those lineages or centers or other things that have more of a legacy that do last the test of time. And I don't think that means that it's unimportant, it just, there is a difference there. But when you look at the Colet connection, that's something else because that's this is an example of where he is he has single handedly changed the course of history, you know, he has single handedly reached out and and redirected someone to a great accomplishment. And this is this is and to be clear, I want to be clear to listeners, this is not my interpretation or exaggeration of Colet. This is his own words, his own words, as I think as reported to help me and I think this is where the quote comes from, that this will collate his own words are expressing that, to what degree this interaction floored him, and then redirected him. And I think also this is, if you if you just read that quote, you don't know who Calais is, it's not going to stand out as much. It's just like, oh, this is this is someone who heard this and was redirected. But when you when you match up, knowing what Foucault's glucoamylase life turned out to be, I mean, just the fact that you just think like someone as, as great a spiritual master of hooba can is going to meditate, we are going to ordain under WebU Seda, someone who's believed to be fully enlightened, you don't think that the person is the one person who's going to choose to come with him is going to be random, you don't think that's not going to be a, a very calculated choice of something he knows, at a depth level of wisdom we can't even begin to dream of and so, you know, knowing what, who Calais turned out to be and to do and his associations and then hearing him in his own words say that it was that chance encounter, that that that completely transformed his life like this is okay, maybe there wasn't a center set up or teachers then carried on this traditionary or anything else? That's it's still it's still meaningful, what he did and that should still be looked at. But the example of who Colet, like is, that is a turning point in history that then goes back and gets redirected in Burma, you know, back. You know, I think for Burmese listening to this that's that it's a really fascinating thing to ponder in looking at their own Burmese Buddhist traditions and scholarship and everything else to think that an African American professor and diplomat played a role in the the journey and launch of this influential Burmese Buddhist, in their society. It's just it's really, it's so wonderful to hold all these things in the mind, and it's something that should be known.
Aishah 1:44:24
I agree. And I thank you for really saying that this isn't looks like we're just not doing kind of conjecture that these are his words, as documented by, you know, Gustaf Hartman in his in his dissertation, and it's, it honestly feels a little painful to think that it's all been relegated to a footnote. You know what I'm saying? I mean, an important footnote, but it's just like, Okay, now we got to bring that footnote up and out, you know, because it's just it's really critical. I mean, and it's just, I mean, I I know this and that, but just in this conversation, I'm just like, Yeah, this is, this is this is huge. And for me, it's, I mean, one of the reasons I, I, I mean, that I felt called to go to India many years ago, was I really wanted to go to the place where the teachings originated, you know, that that was really important. And I won't get into like, how and why, you know, I was there. But I just think that that's written and I share this to say that I think that there, and that doesn't take away, like I said, from the gratitude from those who brought it back, brought it to the west. And that's how I learned it. But there's something about these origin stories. And I think that there's just something really important to highlighting this African American man's role in, in as we are discussing, you know, very probably changing the course of history. And I also wanted to share that. It's been said that, that Ooba keen, said that Dr. Wright, has made more spiritual progress than one in 10,000 monks making an entire lifetime like that, you know, that in this is a quote from Thomas Ashley for foreign name nama Devo, who's now an ancestor. And the quote is, we must honor this man, Dr. Lyon, right, who has been among us and is now departing. So this is by keen saying this, as Dr. Wright is leaving, he has made more spiritual progress here than one in 10,000. Monks makes in a light entire lifetime. So it's clear to me that, that Ooba, Keane saw something I mean, obviously, the fact that, you know, he saw something in all of the people that he appointed, but we're talking right now about Dr. Wright, that he saw something very profound and special, you can see you see it in the letters, you feel it in the letters, and then you know, and then in the news, and then you expand the context with Colet. It's just like, Oh, my goodness, you know, and I think that he's, I think part he's in this interesting has been in this interesting kind of quagmire, right, like, so. He, you know, for many African Americans who are not Buddhist. And they don't know who Calais is they're not practicing, right. So he's not even though he was a Christian, and a theologian who taught New Testament, he wasn't, you know, he was out of the box, he didn't follow, you know, the particular script and that way, so you can't play some there. And then he taught Buddhism, he practice Buddhist practices, but didn't identify as a Buddhist. So he's not in that box. So he's just kind of, like hanging out there, so to speak, where no one's claiming him, but I feel like, I mean, I had for me when you reached out when we, you know, in 2020. And, and I learned about him, I just felt like, okay, the time is now. And then like, what I gave the talk in February, 2360 years after he was appointed, I was like, the time is now and then in this conversation and 2023 It's just like, more and more, it's like, no, he, we he needs to be lifted up.
Host 1:48:31
Yeah, yeah. Right. Absolutely. And I'm also curious, because we've, you know, we've talked about the Civil Rights Movement and racial injustice in America. And we've talked about Leon Wright's background as a Christian and then professor, diplomat, his relationship with the kin. We haven't really talked about these two together, is there any evidence you've gathered as to Dr. Wright's thinking or activism or work about he was living through a very pivotal time of racial injustice, and then the civil rights movement? And he was at Howard University was there? In what ways did he express his involvement or perspectives on according to especially according to his background, on on this meditation, on healing on Christian Christianity, theology, mysticism, etc? And what ways did this background intersect with his views on race and civil rights? You
Aishah 1:49:23
know, that's a really good question. And I don't have a lot of information about it, which doesn't mean that it, you know, didn't exist, but I don't have a lot of information except for, you know, knowing that, you know, he he taught at Howard, he was a member of the NAACP, which is not something that everybody was a member of, you know, like it's not you know, so for him doing it, particularly in the time period they did it I think was was very radical. But I don't I, you know, I don't have a sense. I know that he and Um, Howard Thurman were very close. And Howard Thurman is, has very been very influential in terms of civil rights writings and stuff. But I find it hard to believe because when I find in pictures of him, when I found have not identified a lot like he, he's been photographed by famous African American photographers who have photographed African American movements, you know, so he was in the media, if you will, of, of folks who were making change, but I just have not. I've not seen anything about that.
Host 1:50:42
And what to say of his legacy? I mean, we have talked about this thing of legacy. And we've touched upon it a little bit here and there, but are there are there any communities or teachers or places that are doing anything in reference to him
Aishah 1:50:55
in terms of Dr. Wright's legacy, as I shared that, I talked to Reverend Esther Holloman, who I think she's now retired, but she pastored a church and, and they definitely, I think, a year ago, they had a celebration and honor of his of his legacy. And so and then there is the covenant Christian community in Washington, DC, have not attended anything, any of their services, but they're on on on the website. They have a page that says why we meditate, and I just want to read what they say, meditation, as inspired by Reverend Dr. Leon, Edward, right. And practice at covenant Christian community is also known as the creative silence, quote, unquote, it is through the practice of this discipline, that we become spiritually empowered to navigate the human experience successfully. Meditation, as Dr. Wright taught, involves a preparatory regimen of deep breathing exercises, intended to help members cleanse their consciousness of anxiety, tension and distraction, so that they open to the experience of the indwelling Spirit of God. And when I read that, and that deep breathing exercises, I can't I mean, and I'm not saying that on upon a meditation is a breathing exercise. I want to be really clear, I'm not saying that. But I can't help but wonder about the legacy of Anapana meditation and how it has transformed into this in this context. So and then we I've shared about earlier about Yvonne Sian, and who was a scholar and lit pan Africanist she lived in, in West Africa, and student of Dr. Wright, mother of Dave Chappelle, like and was healed by Dr. Wright. And that's, I think that's really critical. I mean, so in terms of the legacies that she has, you know, shared widely as, as a scholar, and then I, you know, and then I shared about Thomas Farland, in terms of he was a yoga teacher, he was a student of Dr. Right in in in he developed his own cleansing program that came from Dr. Right, which I'm sure came from Obi keen. So and then there are other examples that we just don't know anything about as of yet.
Host 1:53:33
So a lot of this conversation has also been in referencing the some of the primary source documents that we've read and putting that in context and then subjectively relating to how we feel about that it might be good to bring out some of that original writing itself and perhaps we can go to these letters that we've referenced and just this amazing language and vulnerability and love that shone between these two Dr. Leon right. And see if you begin Is there any excerpt from those writings that you might like to share with us? Yes.
Aishah 1:54:10
So this is um, doctor writes, let an excerpt from Dr. Wright's letter to sad you but keen on July 19 1958. And, and so it's really hard to describe one place because I feel feeling like oh, I want to read all of it. But what he writes what he wrote, I should say is Guruji. I am firmly convinced that you were destined to show me the intimacies of Buddhist meditation at its very best. If I brought something to the encounter in terms of parmi you gave it direction and most meaningful engagement in your inspirationally challenging and genuinely productive method. I shall be with a Nietzsche as long as I live and as often as I do my spiritual gratefully acknowledge the Guru Ji who made it possible. You are that Guru Ji and you have always my deepest respect and my purest love, respectfully yours and with continuing gratitude man right. So, that was his letter that was a very excerpt and I jumped around and then Dr. Right, I mean, oh by keen today I do have a keen wrote on August 24 1958. And he opens it with my dear Dr. Wright, and he shares that he says, let me find the exit that I I want to read for so as long as you are continuously with the nature, you are in our midst, as your thought forces are reflected here, you can very well assume that we also feel your presence here, there are three channels of contact, namely by thought words in deeds, contact by words as in speech or letter is more forceful than contact by thoughts. Similarly, contact by deed is more forceful than contact by words, you would feel this as you are going through this letter, I noticed that you had on arriving in America a succession of reverses conflicts and disappointments that was anticipated, I must congratulate you on the strength of will which keeps you in good stead and enables you to break through all the barriers. If you can only keep up the awareness of a Nietzsche as now you as you now do. I have no doubt you will have a great future with loving kindness by Keynes. And he doesn't need to note because you know, who is assigned is a title right? And see it is teacher and he signs it by King. You know, so, which kind of mean definitely, he was teaching. Leon right. But it's clearly that he also saw him as a peer of sorts.
Host 1:57:27
That's, that's really beautiful. It's, it's great to hear in those direct words what we've been talking about and share that with our listeners.
Aishah 1:57:35
Yeah, yeah, it's just and I encourage people to, to just read them, it's just really beautiful. And, and again, it's just it's, it's, it continues right, the the, I feel like they both of them are having new lives as definitely ancestral spirits, but like, you know, as we uncover, uncover more, store more information about them, that we're actually beginning to flesh them out. To see more the, the fullness of of them and not just only through one lens.
Host 1:58:12
Right, right. And you've gone on such a journey of scholarship as well as personal impact was made on you. And yet, there's still so much to know, there's still so much mystery that we would like to uncover to more flesh out this life and legacy and relationship, what questions stand out for you for what you would what questions you would really like to have answered.
Aishah 1:58:41
What one thing I would like to know is like, did he and Goenka ever know him, right, because he died in 96. So the senators were up and running. And I do know of an instance of at least one of his of Dr. Wright's students who wanted to sit a a 10 day course they reached out, and they were very transparent and said, I'm a student of Dr. Wright. I practice what he teaches. And I I know that as Goenka was the teacher of Dr. Rights teacher, and I and they were not allowed. They were not allowed to. Because you know, they were Yeah, I don't I didn't get I didn't do deep investigation about why they weren't allowed. I don't know if they didn't say they would surrender everything that they do. I'm not sure. But and they tried twice. And this was this was like shortly after Dr. Wright passed away. So it was like trying to so and then when I talked to them, so they they never did of course so I just I would like to Yeah, I'm just very curious about that. That's that's one thing as their former, a person who practice in the Glencoe tradition, did they know each other? Honestly, I hope they didn't. because it just wouldn't break my heart more, I gotta say, particularly as part of many are a few actually in within the organization who were really, really pressing hard to have, you know, black courses in there, at the time that I was here, there was only one black teacher. So if I, I, if they if there was a path crossing that would just, I mean, you know, it's like we're humans, but I would be sad about that. Um, I would like to know. And so that's just one one question in terms of how I would like to, I wish I could have taken one of his retreats or how he did them, like, I would like, that's something like, I mean, people described it, but I would like to know, through my own lens, I the question that you asked around his activism, like, I was curious about what was what was his analysis about race and, and racial justice in this country? And how did he see, you know, his spiritual practices around that? Do you know, in terms of liberation theology, and, you know, so I'm very, that those, that's, that's a question that I would like to know, I'm curious about his parenting and, you know, and all of that as well. Yeah. So that's, I'll stay there. But if I, if I could talk to him, I would love to hear about his experiences in in in Burma with Obi cane, like, I just, you know, from just the things that I'm learning through your podcast adjoa, as well as things I've read about obey can't like, it's just it just see, and then, you know, so much was happening in that time, you know, people just doing all kinds of journeys, without the use of psychedelics, you know, like, so I'm very curious about that. And, and I know from reading the book, knowing Nietzsche, is a pathway to the bomb and the way to nibbana. I just, I learned a lot through that, and just really wanting to know more.
Host 2:02:16
Right, I think on my side, the things that really interest me that I would love to know, more of is the really the, the relations with Burma just from my own background, and having been there to see where he fits in. And that comes in two ways. I mean, I think one is that, which we haven't talked about much and, and, and it's outside some of the spiritual questions and racial questions as well, is his role as a diplomat in an incredibly interesting and intriguing place at that time. I mean, this is anything you read about the kind of intrigue that was going on, between these great powers in and this is you also have to remember, this is pre Vietnam War. So this is as, as as things are building up in Vietnam, Burma is right next door, and there, you read about some of these early some of the writings of this period. And there were there were people that thought that what would happen in Vietnam with the war that that would happen in Burma, Burma would be the maybe it would make a lot of sense for there to be a proxy war fought in Burma. And that was a real fear at the time. And there were, you know, the CIA was there and the, the Nationalist Chinese were literally fighting Mao's communists on on Burmese territory. And, you know, the opium trade was just starting up then. And all these things were and I just can't emphasize enough the so much covert CIA operations going on at the time and, and, and knee when 62 coup was able to his his oppression and, and an iron fist in the country was able to, to kind of move Burma off the world stage. But that wasn't known in the 1950s. And there was this, this was just a place of high intrigue and spying and covert operations from all sides. And to think that I understand he was a cultural attache. So he's not necessarily he's not involved in the covert stuff or the hard power. He's very much the soft power, which is also the introduction of my own involvement in Burma that I was I was you could say that I was in my role, the American Center was very much the American Center was us is it was set up in the 1950s. It was this was the US is where these information centers that the the, the American set up around the world that were kind of the soft power way to to get out in American culture and education and other things to highlight the freedoms that we had, and that that was very much what a cultural attache would do. So you can't say that being a cultural attache was was outside of the realm of this greater intrigue happening. It was just the intrigue was a different focus. It was and you know, and also it has to be said that the 1950s were a time when there were there. There were a lot of Americans who went to Burma as part of these programs and it would be very interesting to think about Dr. Leon Wright's participation in those,
Aishah 2:05:04
I have a lot of questions. I mean, you know, because I did I crossed my mind. I was like, was he was he? CIA? I did ask myself, I was curious.
Host 2:05:14
He was there, Dr. Leon Wright was there at a time when there were a number of distinguished visitors there were because this was really a battlegrounds, as we say, of idea. So it might seem strange today to think of Burma as this backwater place where, you know, some of the top celebrities would come. But that was the case, there was a reason for wanting to push this ideology on somewhat neutral grounds. And, you know, so also we're there. Were there great celebrities from China and Russia that were coming. This was a real battleground of ideas in the 1950s. Vice President Richard Nixon came during this time, there's a incredible picture of, of Richard Richard Nixon as the Vice President and in full Burmese dress that might have been during the tenure of Dr. Leon. Right. And, and certainly, some jazz musicians that came at the time that name escapes me now, but some very famous jazz musicians that were there. And so one side of questions I have would just be in his, in his official capacity, this was not a boring place to be by any stretch of the imagination. And so what exactly was he doing there? And what was he involved in? The other side that I'd like to know is what was his involvement in IMC? You know, beyond the strictly spiritual relationship just been that so few foreigners were at IMC it was so rare at the time, that he he would have you would have been known he would have stood out by virtue of not being Burmese at the time. And and we don't know much about that, you know, I I asked, I did speak to this person who came some years after him never intersected with him. And the only anecdote that she had, in addition to the one I mentioned earlier, was that there was a certain birdsong that that some some Burmese at IMC kind of made a joke as the way they is the way this bird song came, that they put words to this bird song that was something like, Good morning, Mr. Right? How are you? And everyone whenever this bird would would do a song everyone at IMC would just kind of happily chant this, this, this happy little tune? Good morning, Mr. Wright, how are you? And the fact that they were still referencing this all the years later that this bird was kind of the doctor right? bird that that just as a small sign of affection, and they're just these tidbits of information that we know about his intersection into into the IMC culture and the people around that and into what would have been a very small circle of random and cosmopolitan society. I mean, these these were, it's a small circle today, it was a smaller circle, then, you know, anyone who was around anytime during that period would have known him or known of him. And that would just be wonderful to find out.
Aishah 2:07:48
Yeah, yeah. No, I, there's Yeah, I think like, I remember when we were talking with a friend of yours. Here at your mini while ago, that I didn't understand that, you know, Burma was I don't, you know, I don't I hate I want to be really mindful and not participate in some kind of Orientalist thinking. But that Burma was very, a lot like how people travel and go to Thailand is how people were going to Burma. My period, right, that it was a hub, and that folks were so it, you know, so I so when I saw I shared this to say that when I first heard about Dr. Right? Being environment, I'm thinking of not Burma now. 23. But I'm thinking of a different I'm not thinking of Burma in the way in which like, for instance, if you hear like, oh, somebody was in Bangkok, how is that? Right? Right. So, so I think it is important that, you know, to create even more context there, like around what was happening, that it wasn't just this kind of the way in which how I opened the interview, like, Oh, this is way off the map somewhere. You know, and yeah, I think that that's really important, because that's how, that's how I was viewing it. So that so just understanding that it was a hub, a lot was happening, a lot of you know, and that and we know, I know, we know, people know, you do research, African Americans have been traveling around the world for a long time. Even you know, during enslavement, folks were speaking Frederick Douglass was speaking and in you know, England, it to be well to speaking in England. So they're Anna Julia Cooper, got her PhD at the Sorbonne. So I don't want to act like this, that he was just this anomaly. Definitely the majority of African Americans did not have that privilege are right, if you will, but folks were doing that outside of being World War Two veterans and he, you know, wouldn't have even fought in World War Two. He would have been too old. So, so I share all this to say that it again, it creates a different, it creates more questions. I mean it for me it really, you know, I have a lot of questions like, how did he end up in? How did he get there? You know, why did you go there? You know, like, you know, yeah, why did he go there not and, and just curious and and what else was going on like so our focus my focus is definitely like keen and Buddhism. But what else? I don't think that he is he wasn't going to be a monk for two years. So what else was he doing there?
Host 2:10:33
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it just to reinforce that Burma was not a backwater, then as it might be No, now it was a hub of education and development and promise and sophistication in terms of the international community that was there. It was the place that if you flew anywhere in Southeast Asia, you flew to Rangoon, if you were in Asia, if you were a Southeast Asian, you wanted to go to some of the best universities, you tried to come to Burma, you came to either Rangoon or Calcutta, some of the best universities in the region. If you were talking about the 1950s and and were transported back to the 50s and you tell someone you're going to Bangkok, then you get the impression that you're you're kind of going somewhere off the map. And somewhere that's not very well known, because these things have reversed course, you know, 1962 changed everything. It's shut down every stage of development that and trajectory that Burma was on, and it set it on a terrible track that we're still on today of violence and corruption and division and everything else and oppression, obviously. And so it's very important to emphasize that going to Burma back then not only in terms of its its development, and its its its central hub, and to that at that time in the region, but also the international intrigue, you know, the importance to America at the time that this, this would have carried much greater connotations and importance than we think of today. And so certainly, well, maybe not Not, not today, because in the last 10 to 15 years, Burma changed so much. But before the transition period, which was really 2010. If you were it's fair to say that before 2010, if you were set sent as a diplomat to Burma, like you were it was the equivalent of something like Siberia, nothing is going to happen here. There's there's not really anything that's going to be developed. It's just, you're just going to have to wait out your couple years. And but that is certainly not the case when Dr. Wright went in the 50s.
Aishah 2:12:28
Got it. And so that's how, you know, thank you for that, that that just, yeah, I did not have that. I was really looking at it through that a direct contemporary 23 lens, but much a different type of lens. And and yeah, and really through I think the Yeah, it, it makes it makes sense. Even understanding how many people were traveling there during that time, you know, in terms of even in this western Buddhist context, right. You know, it just really makes sense. There in that way. So, yeah, I would I would definitely like to know more about that and just want and I would, I wonder, you know, are there images and you know, like, more letters. I mean, great that we have those two letters, but more letters and images. I would love to have more images. It's really hard. You can't really you can't find a lot about Dr. Right. I found his book online. And at the time, I had to pay well, I use a points it's a lot of money to get his book which is unpublished and and it's what I think is really powerful. And I keep bringing up who do you call it? Reverend Howard Thurman because he is really well known in so many circles and there's a long blurb on the back of the book by by Reverend Dr. Howard Thurman, from Caltech Cosmos, can Jesus be saved? I mean, but that title alone is just who it's very, it's it's provocative, particularly a 1978. I mean, maybe 23 People like Oh, but 1978 You know, so yeah, they're there. He's still there's so many unknowns about him, but I'm glad that we're pulling back the veil.
Host 2:14:34
Yeah, this has been fantastic. Thanks so much for joining for this conversation. I we've given some information but we've also asked a lot of questions that the journey will continue and it will it will be wonderful for those hearing it that there could be people could also be sparked in their own quest or or answers that they might have and just continue this process along and before we close any other things you want to share about Dr. Wright that we haven't covered so far?
Aishah 2:15:01
Well, I mean, I guess if for people who are listening, I mean, I'm still on my quest. So, you know, I would if anyone has more if they have information that they'd love to share, or have, you know, can points have some avenues, which they can, you know, point, I would really love that, you know, to receive that information because I'm still compiling. I mean, I feel like he's very much he being Reverend Dr. Wright is very much with me his spirit, I feel very close to his spirit. And so just wanting to know more about him and hope that for folks who don't know, a ladder, this podcast interview conversation is your first introduction, I invite you to definitely view the the talk that I gave, that's recorded, and it's on YouTube. And sure we can put it in the notes, but my YouTube channel is Afro allez AFR, oh, le z. So if you go there to youtube.com/f, for less, you can find the link and then that link will lead you to a Google Doc that I created, just creating, you know, just listing all the information that I I knew at the date at the time, it needs to be updated, but at the time that I created it. So no, just I guess, you know, I talked about gratitude for a lot I have. For others. I want to express I have a lot of gratitude for Reverend Dr. Lyon, right and for co2 by King just tremendous, tremendous gratitude, because I feel like not directly in terms of Dr. Wright. But, you know, definitely by keying directly in terms of my practice, but just thinking about all of the all the ways that he's influenced and stuff, I just, I feel like I'm a part of that, that that that cipher, or cycle or sphere of energy, that, you know, came from Obi cane, which obviously came from people who precede Obi keen as well. So thank you.
Host 2:17:05
Thank you for that. That's, that's wonderful. Thanks for taking the time to share about your journey and your research and it's been wonderful to hear all of this excited.
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