Transcript: Episode #253: Jonathan Crowley, Part 4
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Host 0:17
What is up everybody. Situation currently taking place in Myanmar is abominable. There is no safety anywhere in the world is all but turned its back on an entire people trying to claim their freedom and insist upon their human rights in the face of blatant evil and inhumanity. international media seems to have moved on to the next story scarcely reporting on this one anymore even as the horror continues. We at insight Myanmar podcast find this intolerable. And we stand behind the Burmese people in their courageous effort to live in dignity. This platform is dedicated to making sure that we keep the conversation going while ensuring these voices continue to be heard. Today's guest is one of those voices and I invite you to settle in and open up to what follows.
Host 2:20
I'm back with Jonathan Crowley here for another interview exploring his own spiritual journey, as well as learning about the things he encountered about meditation and spiritual bypass and growing organization and getting just now into Burma. So after all the hours of conversation we had and it's, as I joked on the last, the end of the last episode, that here in Insight, Myanmar podcast, we are finally getting into the subject of Myanmar. So So Jonathan, thanks for coming back to talk about your extended experiences of being an Myanmar. Yeah,
Jonathan Crowley 2:51
thanks so much, Joe. And, of course, you know, a lot of this is wrapped up in our time together there, at least for me, we were there much longer. But you know, you were hugely responsible for bringing Carolyn and I to Myanmar. And, and I think that yeah, that began kind of a new, in some ways, a new chapter around our relationship with the organization and the tradition of Vicen. Going.
Host 3:19
Yeah, so before we get into your visited Myanmar, and what you learned from that, I think it's helpful to just examine your vision of what Myanmar was before you got there. And I think that one thing that listeners have heard me talk quite a bit about whatever the subject or the guest happens to be. And in fact, this is probably one of the reasons why I was motivated to want to start this podcast platform is that for decades and even for centuries, Myanmar has been I would, I would say, a victim of Orientalist thinking of exotic vacation of people wanting to see in the country and culture and even religion, what kind of trying to describe and to depict what they see more according to what they want to see than what's actually on the ground. And there's been extensive literature about Orientalism in the world with, you know, of course, starting with Edward Saeed describing Egyptian literature moving on to India. And then certainly Burma. And and I've certainly encountered that, in my own extensive time there in terms of the biases and things that I had to clarify my own thinking and understanding to a greater understanding of what was really taking place. And it's something that I see in the way it's depicted in news reports and Facebook posts by travelers going through and so much else. And so, going back to specifically looking at the role that Myanmar plays within the Glencoe organization, how it's described how meditators and teachers talk about it and think about it, I think that would be really helpful to know that kind of image imagery and that kind of mindset that one has even before setting foot on it based on the culture of the organization.
Jonathan Crowley 5:00
Yeah, yeah, well, definitely my perceptions were very, you know, influenced, conditioned, framed, shaped by what I heard, you know, from from going to GE, you know, both in his 10 day courses where he, you know, he describes, his teacher said, You buck in center, you know, in, you know, a few scenarios that happen there. And, you know, certainly throughout my years involved with tradition, I came, I came to sort of, you know, have the sense that, yeah, well, this is kind of where the practice of the pasta was preserved, in some ways, much more, let's just say in a much more pure form than say, it was preserved in Sri Lanka, or Thailand or other sort of, you know, so to speak southern Buddhist countries, in schools that you know, and so there was this, there was this kind of elevation of Myanmar as a place that really, you know, preserve the pristine purity of the dama. And I think that, that, that that phrasing right there, it both attracted me to go. So I actually went there as a tourist for one month in 1997. And I, you know, I only had a month, I went on a very much of a, a tour that was shaped by going to teach tradition and the chain of teachers. So, we visited the main sites of you know, quick as new center, side, you buck in center, sigh attention, the center and Lady Seidel center, you know, up up in the north, as well as, I think also the monastery of weaboo Saito, who is connected to the tradition in significant ways. So that, you know, that was my previous, you know, so going down, you know, and it was, you know, it was very much framed around that chain of teachers as my experience of the Dharma, of course, I was aware that, you know, that Myanmar held many traditions of upasana of the Dharma, you know, many, you know, stories of monks and nuns who are enlightened. You know, there's obviously, you know, hundreds, if not 1000s of monasteries in Myanmar don't have the exact number there. But, you know, so, but yeah, so that, you know, but I also think, just to your point, you know, the relative isolation of Myanmar contributes, you know, contributed to sort of this, you know, this sort of Pure land of dharma, you know, that I think fit fits into some of those. You know, that sort of new colonial and Orientalist sort of this, like it's almost like a holdout, right for a lot of those attitudes, because it hadn't, hadn't been really as touched. I mean, maybe this is, this could be argued, but it hadn't been in touch by modern society and modern globalism, as other southern Buddhist countries had.
Host 8:26
Absolutely. And that's where this irony comes that this kind of untouched, pristine traditional form of Buddhism, which is being promoted and touted by the way Glinka describes it and probably other some, some other Theravada Buddhist traditions as well, maybe Mahasi. I'm not sure so much. But it also happens to be what the Talmud itself is saying, and in no way am I suggesting collusion between the nationalistic propaganda, hateful messages in the Talmud on what Goenka was was saying about his memories of Burma, in no way am I am I saying that there's some correlation between that. Indeed, I mean, that's the military's justification for why it's trying to rule the way it is, is to, quote unquote, protect Buddhism and protect it from the Muslims and protect it from the materialist, western influences, and, and everything else. And that and then this can go into a whole other conversation about how strong really is a faith that needs this kind of oppressive protection where you have to limit the opportunities and the freedoms of all the people throughout the entire country and only by doing so can a certain kind of spiritual practice survive because it's in a vacuum where there's simply nothing else that anyone can possibly do in their life? If that's the way you're protecting something, I think you have to look at what it is you're protecting and how it might be able to adapt and I think this is also the the lessons of lady say it were when he was confronted with what he thought were very much existential challenges to Burmese Buddhism. He looked at how to adapt and modify the practice to Take the roots of what he understood from his deep study and practice and bring it to a modern reality. And I think that that's, you know, that's, that's a proper way to look at it rather than having the state controlled oppressions and controls that, that, that kind of keep it on, on artificial life support.
Jonathan Crowley 10:19
Yeah, so that's interesting. I mean, I, I'm just sort of drawing the those connections a little bit now, between the current, you know, military, military, you know, government and what, you know, those the threat that that lady side all proceeds at the time, the British Raj, in terms of how the Dhamma had to be protected, both from, you know, missionary Christian Christianity, and is that some of the lines that you're drawing?
Host 10:52
Right, eventually, after the death of the current, the current head of the SOS and the British rulers at the time did not appoint a new leader, which kind of left that was one vacuum. And other vacuum, obviously, was the king who was deposed and Royal, the Royal Court was always responsible for the maintenance of the Sangha, and that's pika, and so much else. And without this, how are they going to survive, and that's really revolutionize the labor movement and being able to carry forward and so really, he worked with the cards he was dealt and the context of the situation he was given and found a way to be able to draw on on these past teachings and make them relevant for this age. And also talking to I mean, he was such a wide reader, and learning about science and Christianity and so many other things, he was able to start talking about Buddhism with an understanding of modern science and technology and the way Christianity was being framed. And so it's really genius in the way that he was able to reframe this and make it relevant again, which is very different than a more closed minded approach, which is saying that, because this traditional is correct, we need to suck the oxygen and the growth out of everything else around it, so that nothing gets into contaminated and it just lives in this this closed, protected environment where no one can bring you but at least things stay the same.
Jonathan Crowley 12:12
Right? Yeah, yeah. Well, and, you know, returning to Myanmar, in 2011, you know, it was at a moment when things were really opening up politically, at least, it seemed at the time. I remember, you know, also in sushi was had been released from home, home in prison. And, and yet, it was still, I think it was still sort of touching, go around, even being able to speak her name in public or save with, for example, with a taxi driver. But by the time we left Myanmar, in fact, I think on the very day, about a year later, she had been elected to Parliament, which was just, you know, a sea change at that time, but I know that I know that I really wanted to return back to Myanmar, and my, you know, my wife, Carolyn was also really just just to have a opportunity to experience the culture there. But and, you know, certainly, you know, that's when you and I met, and we, you know, the three of us began to, you know, have a lot of conversation to that time. And I remember, I remember, you know, really, kind of tuning into your orientation, because I had this sense that, you know, just from Utah, I think you'd already been there since 2007, I believe. And, you know, it was clear that you, you know, or at least my perceptions of either was that you had, I was coming in with this, you know, very typical, I think, and I had already been in a system teacher of this, you know, that, that going to these Dhamma was the entire Dhamma because there's a there's a kind of a conflation, I think that happens within the tradition around that, that I was sort of already, you know, trying to, I guess, you know, modify within myself, but, but coming to Burma really, you know, showed me that, that, that there was a much broader scope of the Dhamma than just going CJIS tradition. And I think I saw you or perceived you to be in some ways already, you know, noticing that seeing that, just in the sense of you'd already had a great exposure to other monasteries to other, you know, traditions within Myanmar, and a kind of just a broader scope and that, and I think that began a process for both Carolyn and I around, sort of, yeah, chipping away or dissolving that conflation, that, that that the entire Dhamma was Squinkies Dharma and that was the purest form of dharma.
Host 15:04
Right? And is that starting to chip away at it? The question I have is kind of like the, the psychological or emotional reactions that you had. Because this is something I'm, I'm fascinated about. It's something that I definitely went through. And I've seen other people go through, I've also seen people not go through it, as we talked about, on our last episode. There, there are certainly people that those that kind of talking and framing and just doesn't isn't really that relevant, and doesn't really touch them in the same way as others. But for me, as I started to learn these things, and to, to experience this wider scope of Dhamma, and this conflation that was going on, and this wealth of other traditions that were in Myanmar, as well as starting to see that some of the ways that things had been told to me on the course, whether they were the country and culture of Myanmar, Burmese Buddhism, or the monkhood or the role of this tradition, these are the others that when I started to encounter the differences of what I was led to believe in, and very much believed, it was very hard, emotionally, psychologically, I was there, you know, I lived in Myanmar a long time. And so I I'm a slow learner, and I resist things that are could be fairly obvious to others, I'm not taking any credit for, you know, I think it's really just the duration of time, which eventually confronted me with, with having to having to go through a certain kind of process. But, but I'm wondering about how, as you were learning these things, just that emotional and psychological impact and inner journey as this learning was taking place, if any?
Jonathan Crowley 16:38
Well, and I think by the time we landed in Myanmar, I was I was aware of just certain pieces, that, you know, we've alluded to already, in some of our conversations around just a kind of a lack of emotional integration that was that I perceived happening within, you know, you know, students within Quakers tradition, and within the representation of the tradition, the leadership of the tradition. And yeah, so I landed, I think it'd be more with some, you know, some thinking around that already kind of happening. And I do remember you and I had some conversations around that. But I think I was still very much kind of, you know, on the perch, you might you might say, of, of, I don't know, you might say it's sort of defending the, the place of going because tradition in the world. And because I, you know, I had already been appointed as an assistant teacher. And so I was representing on some level, though, at this moment, I think I had stepped down when Carolyn and I were getting together. And so I was in a kind of I, you know, it was it was a more informal interaction with the tradition. But, but yeah, I mean, I remember being in it was happening, I think, a more visceral level, something Carolyn and I were really drawn, you know, of course, to the pagodas, ladies and pyaz, you know, the, in terms of just we were, we were, we sort of fancied ourselves looking, you know, you know, tracking down some of the pagodas that had, you know, what we thought were authentic relics, you know, again, I think there's probably a whole range of perceptions on that. But, you know, we were, you know, I think you, you took us around to a lot of, you know, pagodas and, you know, we meditated there together and just having these, you know, almost sort of visceral experiences of a, I don't know, I mean, this sounds may be very esoteric, but this is, you know, this is how I felt, but I just felt that there was just living in Yangon. It was like a vortex of vibrations. I don't know if the Shwedagon Pagoda was responsible for that, but it certainly was extremely inspiring to me to be there on that level. Right. And, and I think that that was that I think that also really sort of played a role in experiencing, you know, you know, that I mean, you know, I just, I don't know, I just had this very visceral sense of, you know, the, you know, somebody that Greg, he talks a lot about the forces of dharma, right. But here, I was really experiencing that on a regular basis, just you know, sitting at in pagodas most evenings of the week, you know, and I think that that yeah, and then I also remember we, you know, we set a 10 day at going beauty center, but I wasn't drawn to, to, to going back there actually after the 10 day course. I mean, it was a wonderful to the chorus like many others, but I was actually in fact, we were much more drawn to going to side you buckskins Center, which is also in Yangon. And sitting there we found the vibration They're just much more inspiring, much more profound. We just knocked our socks off to sit there. And I and you know, I think, yeah, and so I just think that that began a process of just broadening our scope of, and maybe redefining, you know, and putting into perspective that going to each tradition was much was was one slice of something much broader and bigger. And I think that that kind of, you know, that was I was sort of trying to grapple with that, because I think I had, I had begun to see that, or internalize a messaging around that, glycogen, these practice, his tradition in the organization was, you know, this, this harbinger of the rise of the second sauce, now, the Buddha's teachings, that it was the tide that was going to lift all other Dhamma boats, you might say, in the world, and, and, and so that that was kind of coming under some examination, while while we were living in Myanmar for that one year. And I would say it, you know, it really, you know, things really shifted after we returned.
Host 21:15
For me, I think it's interesting, looking at taking a coming to Myanmar and going to the Glinka centers, I mean, I think I've been to many and wonderful experiences, and other people have as well, I think there's a lot of value there, they're run a bit differently. And that can be very fascinating. I've had a lot of insights there, definitely say I've attended military ceremonies where were during the previous dictatorship, where military were actually going and presenting Donna and kind of having their moment in the sun, which was definitely a bit odd. But in any case, I think when when I would talk to friends that were coming into practice, and they would, they would, they would want to come for like three weeks and spend like half the time in a center, I would kind of laugh and say, you know, going, these go into centers are great, but they really are around the world. And it kind of seems to me like flying all the way to a beautiful beach resort, and then wanting to spend half your time in the hotel pool when the ocean was just outside, like, please go to the ocean. And I would say this, and this was not kind of a clever way to get them to want to be interested in other techniques. It was really like you're in the land where this whole lineage came from, I mean, you could spend your entire time between, you know, a week self course and engine band, and then some days the lady say at a monastery and seeing the, the influences of see how God can and see apogee and just all these other things that are out there, that you can't do anywhere else in the world. And so really spend your time in practice here, I give that advice to so many people and then help them to find those places. But I think that, that it's really coming in from that background into Burma. There, there's a lot of kind of deconditioning and needs to take place from life and culture and teachings in the Glinka center. I mean, I think, first of all, this is for many people that are practicing blanket meditation, I think now less so than before, when we were younger, but for a long period was really the only game in town, I mean, there really wasn't much else out there, that was going to give you any kind of spiritual experience. And so it was I think, by virtue of existing at the forefront before a lot of other spiritual opportunities and practice and teachings came along. By being the only game in town, it's just, it's kind of a take it or leave it attitude, and you come to, to just want to see the benefits of it and and continue with the practice, which is so different than the kind of Buddhist playground you find in Myanmar. I think another issue, and this is something that came up a lot is that a lot of the ways things are described in the 10 day discourse, there is simply no way to, to no easy way to be able to find out correct information on that, you know, I think and again, I think today, there's a lot more resources, you can go online, there's a lot of discussions and forums and people who've talked about this, it's still hard because a lot of it's bunk a lot of a lot of the people that are criticizing the organization and teachings are are coming at it from a very aggressive and and I would say pretty inaccurate angle of not really just being very negative, and not really being quite so accurate in their criticisms. But in terms of the Myanmar and going, you know, when I would start to talk to people, they'd say, Well, where can I read a book to learn more about what you're saying? Where I can I can learn more about these, these contrasting views? And I would basically say, I don't know what book you can read. I mean, this has been for me this has been a multi year long odyssey of conversations and travels and sure reading this or that but reading this or that and putting it in the context I already have. And so that that that also poses this challenge, I think well
Jonathan Crowley 24:45
yeah, I think one of the things well one of the things you uncovered I believe for for me was a treaties around what cya techy was teaching. And I think that was pretty significant for me to read because Um, it described, you know, a practice where, you know, and again, I was, you know, it the contrast to this notion that going he was teaching a pure and pristine practice. That was the same with each, you know, chain of teacher going, you know, going back as far as Lady said all, you know, came into question, as I began to read the description of what saya Tet was teaching, which, you know, describes certainly a lot of aspects of, you know, for example, you know, scanning the body doing body scans. But the word, for example, the word VEDA wasn't used at all, it was all in the context of observing the elements within the body, and also that he, you know, taught on apana, I think, I think, at least for five days, and, you know, the focus was to get students to a point where they were experiencing what's called, I think, the counterpart sign or nimitta, you know, which is a stage of concentrate on, you know, deep deep access or, or jhana. And so I was just, I remember just being struck by reading that, and how that kind of sort of blew up this notion of, you know, this, this, this, this sort of same pure and pristine practice that went all the way back, when it was really being augmented, it really been already augmented from just, you know, society's teacher.
Host 26:33
Right, yeah. And I think that's what being a Myanmar starts to give you those bits and clues to put together and to see where things were formulated, how they were kind of different. They were being presented? You know, I think, for me, as well, I referenced how in an earlier podcast, I after my second course, I just had all of these questions that I wanted to have answered. And talking to this to this teacher. And after several questions, he just kind of smiled and said, You know, I think that that you should maybe spend some more time on practice, I think that, that if you that many of these questions will be answered by your own practice, and they'll be answered much more powerfully and, and effectively than if we sit down and talk about these. And it really had an impact on me because at that point in my life, I coming out of college at that time, I was really seen the limitations of intellectual critical thought discussion, and that they're just kind of talking around the the the essence and the experience, and they're not actually getting at it. And that was a huge insight for me. And so him saying that really dedicated me to wanting to only talk in so much as to be able to make sure I was practicing the way I was supposed to be doing and, and to not try to replace intellectual conversations or, or thinking with the actual practice and really made me kind of hunker down into that. As Glinka says, you know, intellectual games, this is the word he uses is that don't engage in intellectual games. And this expression had had great meaning to me and feeling that, and I think for me, the the danger was that I started to associate any intellectual thinking, study reading, exploration, thought, conversation, all of that, to me became intellectual games that was apart from the core of the practice. And so that all kind of went out the window. And, and I think that and I think also just the practice gives such good benefit. And so I think these things together, you know, that these these conditions together, give rise to, to being first not having access for most people of being able to go and investigate this further and get get proper information. Because this has been much of this information is being quoted from a military dictatorship halfway around the world in a foreign language where people have very little access to, you know, travel and language and culture and politics and everything else. Those are huge barriers to get in the way. And so because of this, it becomes this perfect bubble where anything you say, or much of what is said can kind of go unchecked. And even if you want to check it, there's this kind of prohibition against wanting to go too far in terms of engaging in this quote, unquote, intellectual games. And for me, this was, you know, again, like at the time that I heard this to not focus on these questions, but to focus more on the practice. This was exactly the advice I needed to hear this was a very, in my mind, this was a very compassionate and wise teacher, who was really helping me to focus on what I needed to focus on in that moment. The the challenge for me is that I eventually got to a point I think many meditators get to a point where the practice had the practice and the intellectual curiosity and critical thought needed to have some kind of balance. And for me, anytime, some question of critical thought would come to mind or or intellectual exploration. I would dismiss that as intellectual games which were irrelevant and didn't matter. And I just needed to go back to the practice itself. And so it was this kind of self fulfilling cycle where I was for these various conditions, both internal and external. I was constantly being being swayed away from greater examination and just going repeatedly into the practice over and over, even when things weren't adding up. And when things weren't adding up the right way, I didn't even have the tools to be able to admit that or investigate it. Because the only tools I had were going back to this not not not just one teacher saying one thing many years ago. But really, that statement was part of a greater organizational philosophy, that you you just keep going back to the practice, you just keep going back to the practice, which is beneficial in some context, and some forms of advice. But it also kind of kept me stuck from and being living in Burma, where I was very, very different from most other meditators who weren't having access to this other kinds of information and experiences living in Burma, this ended up being just a lot to hold and digest and find a way to process.
Jonathan Crowley 31:08
Yeah, I can imagine I can definitely imagine and it sounds like you're speaking to, you know, something, I also experienced around just kind of compartmentalizing parts. And, and, you know, you know, dealing with sort of a lack of integration in pieces, I think that, that that sort of prohibition around questioning, or the emphasis on on faith, or just going back to practice, ends up becoming sort of a justification for, you know, a certain prohibition to kind of question things more in the tradition and to, to be more critically examining, or critically, thinking around pieces of this, and that, you know, initially I, I had those experiences at different times, and I just, and I noticed that I did have to compartmentalize when I, when I did have questions. And then also, when I see, there's, there's another angle of this also, which had to do with, you know, both observing and myself, places where Emotionally, I didn't, didn't, I wasn't giving myself permission, you know, rounded some of my emotions in regard to the practice, and I saw other students also doing the same, and that was concerning, also on an integration level, right. But, again, there's, there's the, the message I kept getting was just will just, you know, just go going back to practice, but partly because I, you know, I grew up, you know, in a psychologically, sort of, you know, conversing environment, my father was a psychiatrist, so that some of that didn't really resonate, but I kept noticing more and more that there was a kind of a lack of integration there. There was also, you know, there was also, you know, an, in some ways an acceptance and a compassion for everyone sort of, you know, starting out where they were, everyone has different conditioning. And I think, you know, going because tradition as a culture, recognize that, but I think there were ways in which it didn't, it didn't avoid some of those pitfalls of what I later came to, you know, know, as spiritual bypass, by, you know, countering that within within the culture that, because, again, there wasn't, there wasn't a culture of having open discussions of critically examining things of questioning, you know, sort of tenants, you know, main tenants of the framework or tradition or the practice. And because of that, yeah, I came up against, I think, a similar conflict that you did, or a similar level of compartmentalization within myself, that I wouldn't say had manifested, you know, when I was in Myanmar, but had definitely begun there. I think again, because I was experiencing a broader scope.
Host 34:14
Right, and I think just the experience of being in Myanmar, it directly confronts you with a reality that is this living, thriving Buddhist community with its own history and its own traditions and and it's, it's manifesting itself for all its its all its different features, and both good and bad, and allowing the person there to experience it. And I think that for what I've seen in myself as well as other people have come is that if you're only there for a short time, this conflict between what you're being told and how it's being described and what you're actually experiencing, can doesn't necessarily have to take shape things can be minimized. They could be our View they, they could be unseen, other interpretations can be given. There's all kinds of mental kind of tricks that can be done to be able to convince oneself that the framework one is coming in with with, which I would argue is Orientalist in some form, that that framework that one is coming in with is, is in fact the correct one, and dismissing what is actually being seen and witnessed. And I think that for shorter periods of time, and by shorter periods of time, I don't just mean a couple of days or weeks, I mean, month or even a couple months, I think that, that there that one can stay for longer in that timeframe, and really, still hold on to this sense of what of this mindset one has that is able to override the reality that's existing there. But for me, and for those I've seen that have lived in the country longer and come Western practitioners that have come there, this kind of confrontation is really inevitable. And I think for me, I held on to parts of that mindset, and that framing that, that that I wanted to believe, and that when reality started to confront it, it was immensely and terribly difficult, because I didn't have the tools to know how to handle this divergence. And I had no one I can talk to, there was no one who had gone through anything that I knew of anything like that before me. And obviously, there are no books or no resources or anything else. And so it was really just a lot of internal stuff I had to hold. And sometimes I remember as I was going through this period of trying to integrate this knowledge and understand what it meant. Sometimes I would hold so tightly to what the tradition the blanket tradition was telling me and what I wanted to believe in, that I would just simply deny the reality in front of me, I would I would, as I said, I would minimize it, I would explain it off in different ways I would not see it, I would, I would might say that this is the way things should be any number of things to really hold on tightly to what I was saying. Other times I go the other way, I might swing the other pendulum. Other times, I might be like, This is what this is really happening here. And what I've been told is wrong. And it's like it's a lie, and it's hypocritical. And what does this mean? And how do I hold this and, you know, I really just didn't it was this push pull that I didn't know how to how to how to manage the path that I was on. And as we talked about in this last podcast, where we were in our last discussion, we were mentioning how when this feeling that you were getting this massive benefit from this thing, this practice, you know, unquestioned benefit from from your life improving and your mind being clear. And then you're also told that you're kind of one of the elite ones on the one correct path and with a community of fellow practitioners. And it just, it just feels great. I mean, it just feels great to know that you're doing the right thing with your time. And to have that challenged in the place where the origins of the technique came from, was really, really hard to deal with. And I think one of the reasons that made it harder is that in the way that these teachings and the culture and the discussions are framed from the going organization, it's very, very difficult to take one part, even a small part and say, well, Glinka says this in one discourse, or this is the way this thing is framed, or this is the way this thing is understood. And to come up with factual or historical or documented evidence that this is not quite the case that it's actually like this. It's very hard to hold that and continue to, at least for me, it was and continue to have the overall faith and reverence and everything else, because so much of the way I would argue that tradition is built is that I mean, going come self says there's nothing that needs to be taken away. There's nothing that needs to be added. He's saying that about Dhamma as a universal thing, but to go back to your conflation argument, I think what he's really saying even though it doesn't come out and say this, I think what he's really saying is about his particular technique and tradition and his particular technique and tradition, there's nothing that needs to be taken out, there's nothing that needs to be added. And so if I'm suddenly facing with my own direct experience, something that does need to be taken out or something that does need to be added, not from my own opinion, but by evidence that is directly confronting something that I've been told, which cannot be true to me that that how does that not question the heart of, of, of everything, given that, you know, given that the way the teachings in the in the tradition is constructed, that, that every part of it is is integrative and connected and, and you can't just take one part out and then be okay with the other at least at least that was the way I understood it. So it was it was just incredibly challenging to hold all this within.
Jonathan Crowley 39:39
Yeah, yeah. And I remember you know, when I look back at my material is to be more I, I think of myself as holding a lot of arrogance. You know, in terms of coming in contact with a culture that was really steeped in, in Dharma in you know, in a society and yet kind I'm holding myself in some ways above that, because I had this notion of practicing some pure and pristine version of the Dhamma. Or being, you know, much more committed to meditation as an expression of the Dhamma. And, you know, and it's inserted. Yeah, seeing that contradiction. I mean, even I think in the way that Greg he frames, the whole notion of service and conflates service in his tradition, because he talks about service in a broad way, but really, in some ways, it's complete with just serving at his centers. And, and, and yet, as we know, you know, in the Buddhist tradition of developing parties, you know, this is just for example, you know, generosity, Donna or renunciation those those two, right, there are just such huge parts of the culture of Myanmar. Right. And I remember, actually, you, when we first landed, you facilitated Carolyn, and I going to a monastery and just getting what I remember, was just a huge amount of school supplies to the children that were being taught in the monastery. And just what, you know, what a just what an amazing act that was, and again, it was, you know, part of doing something in a Dhamma context, it was definitely an act of service, it was definitely an act of developing part, you know, parties, you might say, that Buddhists framework. And yet, I was aware that, you know, just even a few years previous, or even maybe at that time, I don't know, but I would have to have kind of downplayed that experience, or somehow not brought that up, you know, because that would be seen as somehow diverting, you know, in regard to my relationship to the Dhamma. And so that kind of that, that holding that sort of insularity of that I began to have a perspective of feeling, you know, that going CJIS tradition was was, you know, insular to the just the, just this broad experience of Dhamma. That that had clearly influenced an entire country and entire culture. That yeah, I think similar to you, I that was that was starting to begin to have some dissonance for me.
Host 42:27
And I think, for me, as well, I just, I had so much fear, really, and I think that that sense of fear or paranoia that I think, I think that's something that is not uncommon to many meditators within this tradition in the way it's not really talked about, or even examined. And especially when you come to a place like Myanmar, that fear just manifested in so many ways, it was fear of contamination, or of losing the, the refined path that I was on, for example, the fear of other teachers, I remember one time meeting a monk who was so happy, I was there and practicing. And I was happy to meet him. And I said, What do you practice? And he said, Mahasi. And my immediate response was something like, Okay, well, I don't want to know about that. I don't want to hear about that I'm, I'm doing this is the practice I'm doing. And I really think you should look into this. And, you know, so it was just this, this, this, this such an extreme fear of other traditions that I couldn't even have a conversation. And I remember actually, one moment when some Blanca friends had come. And they were, they were practicing for several months. And I happen to have a book written by say, Rutaceae Nia. And during our rest times, we were just hanging out of monasteries doing their own meditation. I said, Oh, check this out. You know, this is this is really helped me this book. And a week later, I asked the girl who'd read the book, I said, Well, what were your thoughts on this? How did you feel and she said, she said, I really felt extremely uncomfortable, because the book had really good knowledge in it. And it made me think about things in a new way. But it wasn't coming from, from the blanket tradition, which I'm used to. And it made me extremely uncomfortable, and anxious to to get this information. And I had to stop reading because it just I couldn't deal with it. And, and then her husband at one point had in reading the same book, had decided that he was going to practice on apana exactly the way Gonca top and he was going to practice at standing instead of sitting. And he reported the same thing. He said, this is, you know, this was really interesting to try, but because I was doing something out of the way I'd been taught, and this is the only way that you can practice I whatever benefit I even as I got benefit from it, the benefit actually made me more anxious and I had to stop doing it. You know, I had I had fear of being of the religion, you know, that I was told that I was practicing the Buddhist teachings, but I was not practicing Buddhism. And so I had great fear of doing anything that was labeled Buddhist or as part of Buddhism, I had fear of, quote unquote rites and rituals. I didn't even know what they meant and rites and rituals, but I just had fear that suddenly I would be doing them and that, you know, that would also be taking Give me away from from what the correct practice was. And I had fear of monks because this was not a monastic tradition this was, and I think the, the relationship with with monks was very weird. I would say, from all accounts I've ever heard Blanca, as a person deeply, deeply revered monks. I've heard so many anecdotes and stories of how he held them. And so he, you know, personally he held that and yet, there was also you know, this was a late tradition, of course, it did not encourage going into monkhood, because if you went into monkhood, you wouldn't be part of the tradition, you know, so they lose members of the tradition. There was this kind of reverence teens with suspicion kind of mixed in where it was, like, respect the monks and and feel grateful for them. But also know that you're a little better than them because they don't really meditate. And if they do, they're probably not doing the right thing. And, and I recall one, there was a very powerful moment I had in Australia, actually, where many, many years later when I lived in Burma while and I was at a Glinka center. And I was with a teacher, who had spent a lot of time in Burma, not as nearly as much as me, maybe, you know, the better part of the year in total. But we were sitting with a young Australian meditator who had who was serving his first course. And after a meal he because we're serving, so we can talk, he turned to us and said, Hey, like what you guys are both into Burma, like, what's the difference between what I'm doing here as a meditator and all those monks in Burma? And I just kind of like pause and take this deep breath, I like Man, that's a that's a great question. Like, how do I want to answer this? Where do I want to go with this? And just kind of reflecting what words do I want to choose to be able to contrast this? And before I can speak a word, the teacher next to me says up, the monks in Burma are just kind of going through the rites and rituals and, and the religion, we're actually meditating. And the kid is just kind of like, Oh, okay. And I, it was such an astounding moment. I sat there, horrified. And I thought about that moment, so many times in my life, because, like you, when I came to Burma, I was arrogant, I was closed, I had this Orientalist imagery that was preventing me from seeing things how they were. And it was, I went through a lot of inner pain and the way I treated others and the way that I, I wasn't able to open up to what was around me. And I went through a lot of reflection on on why did why was I like this, I'm not, I don't think I'm naturally this kind of person. I'm naturally curious and open and respectful. And where did this arrogance come from, and I just didn't, where did this conditioning come from? That closed me off so much like this. And when this incident happened, I was paralyzed, because I was like, Oh, my God, this is, this is a replay of probably an exact conversation I had on the other side. And when I got this information, this was like the first step in in my conditioning, and my starting to think about what I am and what other people are. And this is a fact, which is unchecked. And it's coming from a source of authority, and someone respected, and coming in at a time when I'm when when the person is open and receptive and receiving this great benefit and curious. And so this is going to go deep, deep inside, in terms of this is who I am, and this is who the Burmese monks are. And then when this person starts to become more experienced in the organization, maybe just three or four courses, he's going to turn to another young server, having never been to Burma or not know anything and say, and answer the question in the same way. And so I'm watching a replay of this conditioning, which harmed me so much when I went in. And so that was, you know, that, that that was just, this is a lot to unpack.
Jonathan Crowley 48:31
Yeah, and again, this sort of dissonance between what I mean, I, I went to so I meant to many, many, you know, we're called Sangha Donna's, you know, in other words, lay offerings to monks and nuns with glenkinchie. And he did express this incredible deep reverence for the former mastics you know, I traveled all throughout the US and Sri Lanka with him as he has he, you know, did this and, you know, so I know that there was almost kind of a bit of a mixed message around, you know, his example of that, and yet sort of the culture at large or the, the, how the leadership or represent representatives of the tradition created a lot of distance to monastics or or or or placed it within, you know, certain kind of boxes that that just that just that you what you what that assistant teacher was describing is, yeah, well, yeah, all monastics, just do rites and rituals and don't practice. Those are messages that I also received. And that became, it became painful. I think, as that as I began to kind of question that arrogance. It was and kind of question where did that Where did that come from? How do I have this cultural areas in this country, you know, you know? And so yeah, I want to just echo that because it was it, you know, when I turn to turn to looked at some of those attitudes that I also was sheltering, and holding, it was painful to, it was painful to see the arrogance that I had kind of inherited somehow from within the tradition around looking at scans or minimizing or dismissing other expressions and other experiences of the Dhamma that were, in some cases, broader and deeper than my own. And so, yeah, that, you know, and I would say that really continued, you know, once Carolyn and I, you know, returned from Myanmar to United States, we also, yeah, we faced also some huge life changes, we became pregnant and had a son, Julian, and, you know, our life radically changed in that moment, and that that, you know, represented another piece of this, because, you know, up until that point, I think, and I think something else you're taught, you're, you're kind of articulating here Joah, is that, you know, when you're when you're as involved as you and I were, and in my case, I was a representative, there's, there's a real in your in, there's a there's a level, you know, once I think you're sort of sitting long courses, and you've made you've served declared a certain surrender to only practicing this, this practice, and only being devoted to going to GE as your teacher, you've, you've stepped inside, you've stepped inside the tradition, and there is now an in and an out. And I think that's part of what the tension that you're describing, and the tension that I also felt was kind of based on that I didn't realize at the time. And maybe that's, you know, as a representative of the maybe that's just, you know, normal, you know, just like you'd experience that in any organization when you're representing that organization. But I think, again, that the the inability or the sort of cultural prohibitions around open discussions or questioning things, or that it contributes, then to this sense of having to maintain that in this, and that, you know, if if you if you somehow start to question that you're going to somehow then be you're no longer going to belong. So your sense of belonging also is wrapped up in that. And I think that's kind of what began to crack. Definitely for Carolyn, I think, as we return to United States. And, and ironically, we were we were completing Carolyn's you know, training as an assistant teacher at that time. And yeah, you know, can I can definitely talk to talk to you more about just how those conversations and began to really evolve for us where we were really looking more critically at what what we saw going on.
Host 53:08
Yeah, and to stay on Brahma bit for for the time and just examining, just uncovering, unpacking what that experience was like, I think, for me, as I was holding that tension, there was, the tension was really centered on how much I'm holding on to what I want to believe and what I'm a part of, and how much I'm, I'm interacting with the reality that I'm being confronted with, and trying to understand it, which, let's be honest, understanding anything about Myanmar and Burmese Buddhism included, is really hard. So it's not that it's just an art, it's not that there's just something obvious in front of you that that is playing his day, I mean, that that's a whole other topic to go into the vagaries of what Burmese Buddhism is and how it manifests and all the different forms of it. So that was also extremely complicated and challenging. But in whatever case, the the extremely messy and complicated story of how Burmese Buddhism was manifesting was intersecting less and less with the mindset of what I've been told from grandkids message and coming there. And there, there was less and less intersection of between what I was believing and what I was experiencing, and that that became immense, increasingly hard to be able to understand. And that became a question of why, why am I having such a struggle critically engaging with this material, and being able just kind of giving myself the freedom to think I mean, not talk not right, not convince others, but just simply to think about it. And this is still still my own inner journey I'm discovering and learn about for me, I think, you know, partly as I legitimately was getting the great benefit from from the practice and the community as well. And so, it was simply difficult to think about some of the more negative aspects or critical aspects of something that we're still, you know, getting a lot of benefit from in life. I I think another question is where to look, as I mentioned, what resources do you have? There's really nothing I can think of that can that that can really be a contrast to this. And then another one is this question of these intellectual games that there are, that go back to the practice, you know, the practice is, is what is most important and don't get lost in these other things that aren't going to serve you in the end. And so those things were very prominent in my mind. But as I started to critically examine, and I would even just to hold the information that contrasted or conflicted, I would have a physical reaction, I would shake, I would have short breaths, I would be I would start sweating, I would my head would get dizzy. And I would, I would, I would get confused what I was saying, this happened, and this still continues to happen. That's how strong these things were in me. And I know that's not the case with everyone I know. I've know many people that can hear other versions of stories from what they've believed or what they've been taught, and be like, Okay, that's cool. I know people that have stronger reactions than I do. So you know, there is this continuum. But just to give a concrete example, you know, when I was in, when when I visited lady, the monastery, that lady say at a set up in Manjula and started to learn more about the history and learned like, Okay, well, this building here is the oldest building on the site, all the other buildings are built, you know, and last last number of decades, but this one actually goes back. And this is the name of the building. This is the name in Pali. And what this this this Trent, this is a Pali word, which translates to walking meditation. And if you actually look at this building, it's kind of this a part of it is this long, this long, narrow hall, where, where he would practice his walking meditation. And so that's just like, that's just fat. That's one example of many, many, many facts that I was I was presented with. And, you know, the first reaction is, oh, my gosh, how cool like, wow, so he actually like he, you know, this great master actually practiced right here, and I'm in the same place, and I'm learning this history. And when I practice, I can think of him and, you know, it's so great to get this information. But then as you go on, you know, without what Goenka says about the value, or rather, lack of value of walking meditation, it's not taught it's not encouraged, it's seen as something that is, is for people that I think Blanca explicitly says this, that for people that are not as advanced and can't, can't concentrate their minds, it's a good kind of baby step or beginner step. And here's lady say, it has a building, which is, the only way it's constructed that makes sense is that it was to practice walking meditation, I'm totally practice walking meditation there, the name of the building literally means walking meditation. And so this is just flying in the face of what we're told about where the technique came from, and what is being practiced. And yet, when it did just take us one example, if I were to then tell someone about this building, or this part of lady's life, even if I wasn't in any way to make the connection, signifying what it meant that this was very different from what we learned, if I was just just to state the fact in writing or in talking, just to say, this was the name of the building, this is what the locals told me. And when I would do this, I would always be so careful to stick with fact, because I knew how difficult this was for me, I would I would not give any opinions, I would not make any connections, I would state the facts. And I would state my relationship with the facts in the sense that like I was here, and this person told me this, and this is when I was here, trying to be as literal as possible. But even simply telling the facts of what I had learned about this building. And these details, I would go through physical reactions of because I was I was putting something into the world that was undermining what I was told and what I believe to be of great value. And you could of course, say, well, the technique still has value. And this is this doesn't, you know, doesn't mean that there's one fact obviously, it doesn't mean that, that, that this benefit that I've had from practicing is not real or not valuable. It certainly doesn't mean that. But I don't know what it does mean, it's certainly undermined something and having the permission and the freedom to be able to think about, you know, first to recognize this is the truth not to undermine or to reinterpret what this building was really for, because all evidence is clearly pointing to one thing, first of all, to admit that truth and not play those games and then to take that truth and to share that just on its face value. And then after sharing it to go into some kind of interpretation. What does this mean why was this Why was this told to me a different way what what what reasons could that have been? What does it mean overall, the freedom to be able to explore and then critically think and examine that was incredibly difficult for me and and and something I struggled with for so many years, just the freedom to think and I and going back I mean I think the reason why I didn't have that, that give myself that freedom was just placing such value in the practice in the in, in this in this feedback loop that wasn't having this wider context and just in getting benefit from that and not. And so not stepping outside to give myself permission to make this greater examination and it's really hard.
Jonathan Crowley 1:00:24
Yeah, yeah, that's an amazing story about the walking meditation, I have a similar actually experience a little bit more recently, when, you know, I was in autonomous study group with a number of, uh, you know, assistant teachers and folks in that tradition, and we were reading the Majima, nicaya. And we actually came across the Pali word, and I think it's conch AMA, which actually refers to a practice of walking meditation. And it's also said, I think it's related to a similar word for a walking terrorists, right? So just what you're describing, like, the actual structure is, and the purpose is for walking meditation practice. And there it is, in the Pali canon, and to have it so thoroughly dismissed. In the blanket tradition. That was a that was yeah, it was another example of that dissonance that you're describing, and what began also that kind of critical. Yeah, just saying, Okay, wait a second, what have I, you know, what have I swallow here? And why can't I question it openly. And yeah, those, those, those, those things became a, you know, more and more important to me. But I again, I also began to sort of see both within myself a certain level of, yeah, there's just this kind of, you know, emotional compartmentalization, I guess, is the best way to talk about it. And I remember thinking, you know, and seeing it also, in others, you know, in the tradition and seeing it also in some of the dysfunctions that I was experiencing, as an assistant teacher, you know, working with other, you know, committees or, you know, groups, you know, initiatives that we were, that I was involved with. And I, you know, at some point, I, I began to just and I remember writing to a full teacher, an attorney about this, I, I, as I saw it in myself, as I saw and others I, I said, How can such a transformational effective, you know, remarkable, you know, in my mind miraculous in terms of what I had just what I had experienced my life, how can such a practice result in this? compartmentalization, this this kind of, yeah, this just, you know, such kind of a limited sort of mindset and culture that I was experiencing. And, you know, I realized that was also, I had inherited that it was inside me, I was experiencing that as well, the arrogance was also mine, you know, I began to kind of, you know, experience, you know, the, again, those the fundamentalism, that sort of behind attitudes around, you know, walking meditation, it's not allowed, it's not, you know, it's inferior practice, those kinds of attitudes, I began to see as a form of fundamentalism within the tradition. And that really, you know, as I began to see, I was like, Wait a second, how can how can this practice which I have, you know, as ascribe to as such a pure and pristine practice? How can it be resulting in these kinds of results, or these kinds of outcomes both inside myself, and as I in others, and I remember writing, I don't know, if I actually, I have it right in front of me this letter and, you know, if I could just reach a small turns, I said, you know, I said to the, you know, Atari that was right, I said to be straightforward. I see a lot of fundamentalism, over rigidity, repression, lack of emotional awareness and integration, conflict avoidance, you know, or avoidance of the uncomfortable you know, emotional bypassing a lot of absolutism and the dogma. You know, that spiritual arrogance, sense of institutional isolation, I felt increasingly that I was kind of alone in this tradition that I you know, that there was an insularity to it. And a sense of superiority like that I was just increasingly uncomfortable with and, yeah, and then also, you know, at this same time, you know, we refer to this earlier, but I also began to was, you know, because of some workplace situations, I was really examining anti racism and but I was looking at, you know, my own bias as, as a white male. And I was just noticing that, you know, there was a lot of unexamined racism in the organization. And really, as much as all the kind of talk was about issuing glenkinchie As a girl I just was proceeding, it's particularly because of by this time, he was really declining, he may have even passed by this time in 2013. You know, it was, there was a lot of Grudem that I felt was manifesting. So I wrote, I described all this to, you know, a senior teacher felt, you know, full of cherry in that tradition, and was grappling with it, you know, it was really grappling with that.
Host 1:05:48
So, yeah, I mean, that that anti racism stuff really connects back to some of the other things we're talking about with the Dhamma. Brothers and, and moves forward into, into some of the initiatives you took, and some of the ways that you've changed before we get into that in full and maybe when I'm about to say will also relate in some kind of kind of side tangent way or just just sharing some similar characteristic. But I think going back to the orientalist view, you know, I think that one of the things that defines Orientalism is that it's more of like a fantasy or a mythology that exists within the mind of the person who's holding it and they're holding it for a very specific reason it, it feels good or it fills some gap or it explains something or gives them some kind of privileged status or something. But this Orientalist outlook is serving some point in the mind of the person who's holding it. But to hold the orientalist, the orientalist, the kind of frame of reference and mindset, one has to be holding on more to the mythology that you're believing than the things that you're experiencing. That's really one of the definitions of that. And I didn't really know much about Orientalism, before I came to Myanmar, I studied at somewhat in in university, but when I started to learn more about Orientalism, and specifically how it related Indian Burma, I was really alarmed and amazed by how much it seemed to align with what I was seeing in a foreign meditators coming over. And certainly, in my mind, realizing that I was very much guilty of wanting to hold on to this picture that served me in some ways rather than this messy, confusing reality that I was confronting that was obviously much harder. And wanting to question why I was doing this, why it was holding on to something in my mind rather than what I was witnessing and what was before me. I think the really tragic thing about this Orientalist argument that the coup, the military coup, and Myanmar exposed to me, and I don't want to speak blanket statements, I want to express truth. Before I say what I'm going to say I want to express tremendous gratitude to hundreds of meditators who have supported this platform, who have given so generously to humanitarian missions that better Burma runs, there have been, we couldn't have done this without, without the meditator supporters that have followed us and that have supported our mission. And that have have opened their hearts to what's going on in Myanmar and have given selflessly and continuously it's just been tremendous. So I don't want to say any blanket statements and want to foreground what I'm saying with that appreciation with that acknowledgement of truth. That being said, there for many people, I think, many people with a with a with a Buddhist background, a meditative background, I don't think this is limited to the organization. But because that's what we're talking about. It's more prescient and more more relevant to our conversation. But it's certainly not limited to that. But I think that when Myanmar started to go through the enormous problems it was going through with with a military coup, and just the horrors and the atrocities and the things that just curl your blood when you hear them or traumatize you just by knowing about what happened. And here's this, there's a living and breathing society that is suffering so much and needs so much support. And for many people that we're constantly people, teachers, meditators, organizations, that were constantly talking about this debt of gratitude to Myanmar. And this is where the teachings came from. And this is what we owe them. I think that those words in many cases turned out to be utterly meaningless and empty because nothing was done absolutely nothing. But I'm a part of many, many. Of course, there are many exceptions to that. As we said, this is not a blanket statement. But I don't think one can walk away from seeing the response. And again, not just from the clinic organization, but also from many other meditative traditions and just feeling just a failure, just a shame of how little these great platforms which are built on on the teachings that came from Myanmar and this this expression of gratitude is always being expressed See how little those stood by me and Mars they was going through its darkest times whether it was through financial support or moral support or, or, or whatever initiatives, one can do within one's own practice and tradition and anything else not to step outside and suddenly become an activist. But but in line with how, with with whatever one's organization or practice was, how little Myanmar was regarded by so many people that were of these traditions. And, for me, this served as kind of a really tragic evidence of this Orientalist standpoint. Because if you if you see an oriented if you hold an Orientalist view, and of course, you can talk about when times are good, you could talk about the reverence, you could talk about the Brotherhood, you could talk about the gratitude and the and the friendship and everything else. But really, this is just a story that makes you feel better about yourself and your practice. My practice came from the jungles of an exotic place in Burma so many centuries ago and, and that's what makes me and my practice special. And so it becomes another mark of this Orientalist fantasy and vision, that is just justifying someone in a more privileged place and why they have you know, something that is more unique and better than everyone else out there. If, if you holding this Orientalist fantasy, it prevents one from actually interacting with the humanity and actually seeing, these are real people. And these are people with their flaws and their benefits, these are people that I have a connection to, that can relate to I can learn about I can hold space for them. Having if you're if you're doing those kinds of if you're interacting on those kinds of levels, then you're probably not holding on too much of this Orientalist myth, because you're seeing these people in their full shades of humanity, and you're standing by them and you're bearing witness. But if you're not able to do that, and you're just waiting for the bodies to fall and to be cleaned up and either move into back into a democracy or, or a dictatorship, whichever else and then once there's some degree of safety say, No, I'm off for my pilgrimage, I'm off for my meditation center, the bodies are cleared off the streets so I can go if if the if there's this mindset that that this country and people and practice are playing this role for you, you're you're caught in, you're mired in in this Orientalist fantasy where you're not able to see the people as they are. But for those that are able to really witness that full humanity and continue to interact and stand by, you know, it doesn't have that whole but that unfortunately, that has really been the minority of the case from what I've seen. And so to me, this is just the tragic evidence that for so many, they were really holding Myanmar not as, not as a people and something to really witness and interact with and learn from, but something as an Orientalist fantasy, which just further serve their own sense of privilege and elitism.
Jonathan Crowley 1:12:48
Right, and you bring up a, I think, well, a lot of different aspects here that I moved to talk to him, I want to first off, I just want to also just give you a shout out for the work you are doing with better Burma, I mean, you know, someone who has been, you know, again, I lived there for a year lived and worked there for a year. And that was a significant experience for me. And as someone who did spend that much time in Myanmar, you know, what you've done on behalf of the country is just, you've done so much in terms of bringing aid and I just, you know, I personally just want to thank you publicly for that, because it has been so it's been so moving to me to just to watch you and watch how much you've really, in many, in so many ways, just sacrificed so many aspects of your life to do that to do that work. So just thank you for that. And yeah, and I think what, you know, when you talk about Orientalism, I think what one thing is helpful for me to understand when is that Orientalism is a form of of its colonial bias, right? And it in some way shares it which really comes down to racism, right to a form of racist bias. Right. And I think that's important because it's invisible, right, it's invisible in the way that it manifests in, for example, me as a as someone who lives and was brought up in the West, and it was brought up to view developing countries like Myanmar, that were subjugated by colonial forces. You know, like the UK and, you know, so, so there's a lot of blindness there. And I and I am experiencing, you know, the that blindness even now, in our, in our conversations, I'm so aware of what I don't know, regarding that kind of bias, but I know, because it's very similar to you know, incent, you know, the kind of bias that is involved in institutional racism, that the colonial attitudes are very, very similar. are in that they remain, unless you look at them in a very intentional way, they remain unexamined. And I can speak to just the fact that, you know, 25 or 30 years of meditation didn't touch any of that, for me, that I needed to initiate another whole process. From, you know, on a on a, on a cognitive learning level, I had to really educate myself on that thought, to really come to terms with what, you know, my own race, racial bias was and is, that I'm still working on. And to understand that that also when I would go to countries like India, and to Myanmar, which had been subjugated by colonial forces for so long, that I was also operating in the same ways and would look like you say, through a through an Orientalist viewpoint or colonial viewpoint, and that, and how important it is to as I think as meditators to, to, to undergo a process of examining those biases, both implicit and explicit. And that, you know, that, you know, I think that I was told over and over again, within the blanket tradition that, you know, that work is separate from the Dhamma. And social justice work is separate from the Dhamma. And when you know, and that even, you know, other aspects of service in the world, were not as value bool valuable or legitimate as directly serving glenkinchie centers, in terms of the so called Field did the, what is referred to as the field of merit in terms of supporting folks who are doing the work of insight, and liberation. And, and so, you know, I inherited, again, all of those attitudes, and I began to feel like I couldn't, there was no place for that. You know, and, you know, I had a conversation with Acharya and, you know, I was telling, you know, he told me, Well, you know, the Dhamma organization is not going to do everything, you know, for your life, you know, it's it's this, the blanket tradition is focused on, you know, these retreats. But I you know, and I appreciate that that time, I realized, okay, yeah, maybe I'm just trying, I'm looking for too much out of out of this tradition, and out of this organization. But then on the other hand, this, you know, glycogen issue was, was talking about the Dhamma, which is really one's entire life, right? It's sort of like that story of, you know, Ananda, the Buddha. You know, we're Ananda says, oh, you know, friendship is half half of the spiritual life. And the Buddha question says, No, what are you talking about? You know, say that, you know, Friendship is the whole of the spiritual life, right. And I had that same feeling about, you know, my involvement in a Dhamma tradition that it was that it's there to inform and guide my entire life, not just pieces of it, right. And that included, how I am in the world, how I'm conditioned as a white person, as a white male. And so, you know, as I began to question all those pieces, I found myself, I think, as you're describing sort of increasingly at odds with my sense of belonging to the organization, if that's, if that kind of echoes a little bit of what you were just describing.
Host 1:18:45
Yeah, and I think what makes this also challenging to have to think through is that it's really interesting your use of the word conditioning, because you're talking, conditioning can be used in different contexts, Just now you were talking about conditioning in the context of your conditioning by American society, as a white male with privileges and having certain things invisible to you certain things unseen. I mean, we're talking about the unseen and Buddhist Burma, this is the unseen in America of, of other other experiences by other people, particularly of color, that are not having your experience and you're conditioned, to not see that or feel that. And yet, this word conditioning is a very important word in the Buddhist context, or for those that that don't like that word, the the meditative context of practicing the Buddhist teachings, that, that that condition that this practice of meditation is deconditioning this is something you hear all the time and you know, it's to large degrees true, that you are coming, you are interacting with the depths of certain habit patterns, where you're actually seeing the base level of those habit patterns starting to form and you can get in there and change that and that's where To me that's where the miracle comes from. That's where the amazement that one can actually change one's life in ways I never thought possible by this tech by Glinka technique, particularly in my case. Other people surely have had experiences with other techniques where they felt the same. But for me with the technique of Glencoe to be able to get in there, and see how this deconditioning could happen in ways I never thought possible in the world, it was nothing short of a miracle. And yet, you're using the word conditioning to talk about in the context of examining certain social constructs and ways that you behave. And I think herein lies the challenge of talking about this, because if we would have had this conversation, 10 years ago, I would have launched into a very confident discourse, that whatever conditioning you think you need to do in the world, all of that will be taken at the base level to the practice of meditation.
Jonathan Crowley 1:20:49
And I would have had that too, I would have had that too. And that became, at some point, kind of untenable to me, because I was, you know, I was undergoing anti racism training and affinity groups, where I was being challenged to really examine my, the conditioning of my whiteness, and I was struck, it was so he was he was literally, I'll just use the word, it was literally enlightening to me, it was so eye opening, right. And then and it was so also so transformative and so profound to me. And so also, you know, deeply moving both in, in, in understanding the pain of that conditioning, as well as the promise of, you know, potentially, you know, possibly coming out of it, no, but that's, that's its, that's its whole order, of course, but you know, increment, you know, step by step. But I, I, that was that work, which I was doing, obviously, at a not at a medic, medical, you know, medical, cognitive level of meditation, but at a, you know, at a social level of both education and reflection and examination of behavior. And that became as profound as some of my earliest courses in the Dhamma. Right, and I was struck by that level of transformation. And I had to say, Well, wait a second here, how, you know, how is it that, that my meditation has never touched these layers of current, you know, social construct conditioning, of my society, and of my race, or my so called contract of my race as a white person. And that question really loomed large for and still, you know, it's still an examination. But I began to see that, you know, that the Buddha himself, addressed it and addressed it with his his, you know, with students at the time, even prior to teaching the meditation, even prior to them taking refuge, he was leading, you know, groups of Brahmin students, through a questioning process of their conditioning, and their superiority, and their sense of purity as as Brahmins and you know, this is recorded 2600 years ago in the Pali canon, and it is, it is, you know, so you can't, you just can't, you know, that notion that you can separate out, this type, this type of reflection process, which the Buddha was engaging with his students prior to even them taking refuge in him or in the teaching or in the Sangha. And prior to, you know, them being taught this meditation practice, you know, he, he was leading them through that kind of deconstructing process, right, at a, at a cognitive level at a reflective level, you know, and so, you know, that, you know, to see, you know, the, the kind of the holding on to these limits of where the Dhamma could be applied, and where a can just just seem very arbitrary to me.
Host 1:24:04
And I think that's to end on that note and pick up from that, that this question of, of where the Dhamma can be applied or not. That's exactly where I was gonna go next is that, I think, in the way that that Buddha's teachings have been delivered in again, in this postmodern era, where it's called Modern Buddhism or Protestant Buddhism, these are terms that academics use to talk about how this this new way that is disseminating the teachings that are based more on logic and health and reason and, and taking out some of the more fantastical elements, a feature of this kind of methodology, which, you know, Gonca certainly falls into among many others, is that it becomes a kind of panacea for being able to fix and resolve everything. And so your question of like, Where can the Dhamma fit in and where can't it I don't know exactly how you put it, but where where can you apply and where, where maybe Should you apply other things? I think this kind of flies in the face of this presentation as it was happening during this period and by teachers such as Goenka, where it was really this panacea to be able to fix everything to resolve everything that any ills in life, all of it can be resolved this way, not through all this convoluted intellectual entertainment or things that, you know, endless conversations are thinking that don't go anywhere, repeated habit patterns, everything, all of these human ills that can be solved, they can all be boiled down to, and then fill in the blank and blank as case it'd be observe your sensations in with other techniques, that might be something else. I think that new teachers are coming off now or when I hear their methodologies, I don't see them doing this. It's quite interesting. I think I feel like we're getting more refined approaches in many cases where, where we're not getting the sense that this is a practice for teaching, which can cover and fit and fill everything. But I think this also goes into what I was saying earlier in the conversation of why it was so difficult for me to give myself permission to examine very obvious shortcomings and contradictions that I was experiencing, and Myanmar, from what I've been told, because you're to accept the power of these teachings. And the tradition that I was in was to accept these teachings as a panacea that was able to, to kind of be a fix all for everything. And if I need to admit that there is something that it's not doing, if I mean, especially in terms of conditioning, if you were to tell me, that there is a deep rooted conditioning in my mind, that meditate that no matter how much meditation I do, it might not get to it. How am I supposed to take that information? Like how is that not supposed to break down my entire worldview of what this practice is meant to be? Right.
Jonathan Crowley 1:26:43
And I think I think just I think it's important to, to sort of describe, actually, that, you know, going could you places a very preeminent emphasis right on a couple of words that are, I think, are important to understand in regard to the his teaching, one of them is the word sample Genya. And the other one is, I think you've referred to as sensation or Vaikunta. And those take on really a great emphasis, I think, within the teaching and you know, just to describe what those mean, you know, so, so, you know, gravity translates VEDA as physical sensations, and although he acknowledges that they are categorizes as one aspect of the mind, in terms of his practice, that the emphasis is on observing physical sensations within the body, understanding their impermanence, and, and developing equanimity towards those sensations, which then initiates a kind of a, a surfacing process or a purifying process by which underlying, you know, tendencies of impurities of, you know, wrong views or of, you know, negative negative emotions will then be able to surface and as long as you continue to observe, you know, that the nature, the impermanence of those sensations, and with equanimity, that, that will, that process of purification will continue to ever subtler levels of purification and liberation until one day, you will experience the ultimate level of liberation or nibbana. And so, that works on Virginia typifies, although sub Virginia actually has several other meanings. He chose to sort of focus on that definition of the word, some Virginia, and that definition of Vega, as you know, in terms of the emphasis on physical sensations, and those become, you know, that process becomes paramount, to the exclusion, of working with other types of more cognitive practices that the Buddha did teach, you know, that are, you know, throughout the Pali Canon Throughout it all, you know, all the, all the cities that he's taught, you know, where he, you know, he taught processes of substitution. So, if there was a if you sense that you were, you know, full of craving, you know, he would substitute that with the practice of metta or loving kindness or you know, actually process known as turning away from unwholesome states or of cultivating wholesome states either, you know, Metta loving kindness, karuna, compassion bodhichitta, you know, sympathetic joy, and, and so, you can use the cultivation of those states or even the cultivation of deeper aspects of concentration, as a way of upper brooding unwholesome states. And so but you know, he really doesn't, you know, those other pieces that those other frameworks are not really, they're not, they're not allowed really or given much. They're the only time that I think they're allowed is when you're actually struggling in in meditation, they're not allowed as a normal way and the preeminence again of this sort of purification process of some Virginia, and of the, you know, the definition of physical sensations with VEDA take, you know, take a sort of a preeminence. Right. And so, you know, I began to do this work at, you know, around anti racism, which is largely cognitive, but really very profound, and looking at aspects of my own conditioning all, you know, all the way, you know, throughout my entire life, I thought, wait a second, you know? How can how can this? How can how can we just be, you know, just focusing so much and giving so much emphasis to the exclusion of other types of practices that the Buddha taught. And that became also a questioning process that, you know, I started down and began to see that that was part and parcel of I think, what was creating some of the dissonance that I was actually experiencing, you know, in the organization, or in the attitudes that were not allowing for critical thinking, or that, you know, that, you know, that would emphasize, oh, you should just just practice and just do your work on the cushion, and everything else, you could just will, will take care of itself, you know, and so, you know, those those kinds of, you know, prescriptions, you know, we're not working anymore, for me,
Host 1:31:53
as you say this, I'm just playing devil's advocate, I'm thinking of a fellow meditator, a friend of mine, who, when we were talking about this, at one point, he was saying, Well, you know, I acknowledge that there's racism in the world. And I, I'm, I'm saddened by it. And I definitely think it's a bad thing. But it's not my fight I, I have a very short time on this world. And I have to practice very ardently. And there are many social ills and many problems that are happening around and if I start spending more time on those, then it's, that's going to be the thing I do balanced with this kind of striving for spiritual liberation. And basically, like, I don't want to waste any of the time that I have available, to be able to practice the most seriously, I can, and the most effective technique, and to make the most progress at being able to come out of these defilements. And so for this life, this is not really my cost to participate in. I applaud those who do. But this is not really for me, my path is this one. So I'm sure you've must have heard some variation of that before what what what do you think when you given your work and your progress? What what do you think when you you're confronted with something like that?
Jonathan Crowley 1:33:09
Well, and I had those attitudes myself, right, I had those attitudes myself, that's why it was so jarring to suddenly as I underwent the reflective work of of anti racism and to look at, you know, my own biases and my own internalized racism and my own internalized dominance and to see those states in me, how, how upsetting that, you know, that was and how confrontational that was within myself. So I, I fully understand that. And I think it's, I think it's important to realize that it's a both and equation that, that the deep that deep practice goes hand in hand with integrating practice. And, you know, I mean, I think there's a lot of stories where, you know, folks may have even experienced, deep level, you know, deep, deep levels of liberation. And yet, you know, still had to, you know, still have to learn ways of being in the world, even even, you know, as a Dharma teacher, you have to learn the skills of teaching, right, that doesn't come just from being liberated. And so, I think that in some ways that that, that I think that that attitude is somewhat limited, really, I would say to this limit, I, you know, I think having that, you know, at one point in my life that having that priority for myself, I would say that it was now looking back on that that I was not in touch with a certain level of my own humanity, maintaining that attitude that I should just strive and strive and strive for liberation, without taking other steps to integrate those pieces into my life and I think that it's short sighted to to polarize us to put those on as in two different departments, I think that the process of liberation is, in fact, the process of recovering our humanity. And I see those, especially in this in the states of the Brahma Vihara is of, of loving kindness, of compassion, of sympathetic joy for others and for ourselves in an equanimity. Those are, those are states that are, those are integrating states, of course, they are also states to develop, you know, very intensely in terms of concentration. And, and, but they are also states of integrating into the world. And I think, to, to just strive, thinking that, you know, by liberating yourself with certain types of practice, and not attending to other parts of yourself, I think that's actually short sighted. And I saw that in myself, I saw that I was limited, and that I had, in some ways really kind of utilize that attitude almost as a kind of a, to maintain a certain you might say, superiority, in terms of my own path, or supremacy in terms of my own path, and prioritizing that over other aspects of being human and being in the world and being compassionate with others and understanding, understanding the context, the social context of oppression and racism and how it manifests. It's everywhere. And, you know, I think to just ignore that, and say that you're just going to liberate yourself is yeah, it's, to me, it's a limited, for me, it was a limited perspective. And myself, I'll just leave it at that.
Host 1:36:58
Right. So that would be that would be one response to the I say, devil's advocate. But actually, that's probably not a correct term to use it because it's not theoretical. It's not something I'm inventing. It's something that that many people believe in, I'm citing one very specific conversation I had, where I'm trying to relay as authentically as I can, how it was framed to me, the other the other response, I think, and we've gotten into this a little bit, but to treat it more directly. While some people might say, well, this is this is good for people who do that good on those that want to take this cause. My life is short, I have limited time and resources, this I'm going to spend it on spiritual path, you've responded to that. The other thing that people might bring to the table is I am doing a process and a meditation, which de conditions, habit patterns, and blind reactions at a core depth beyond what any other practice or thing in the world can do. And so I this, this conditioning that you're talking about, it's something I'm going to face and I'm going to I'm going to uncover the take out the roots in a way that that will be far more effective than any of these kinds of like, surface, you know, psychological or dialogues or readings or anything else, I'm really going to work at a depth of this. So when you hear this kind of response, not pushing aside or or minimizing the existence of this habit pattern, but rather insisting that this is the practice which is going to decondition it, because that's what we're told this is by many meditation practices today that misty conditions everything, what is your response when you hear something like that?
Jonathan Crowley 1:38:41
Well, and I heard that from, you know, full charges in the going good tradition over and over again, was the sense that, you know, if you work at the root level, all this other stuff is going to ultimately get taken care of, and I don't have to do that work. But here they were in charge of an organization and tradition, where there was structural and institutional racism occurring in the in the way that you know, students of color could could expect to enter into the organization to be able or not be able to do service to be able or not be able to be in a position based on how much they sat or served to be considered to be an assistant teacher or some other representative position in the organization. And this is where I think those those blind areas around institutional racism and structural racism come into play, because clearly, an entire organization had come up with those biases in place. And yet the leaders of the organization were telling me after 14 years of their own meditation at the deepest levels, according to what they were describing, and according to what glenkinchie was prescribing that they didn't have to do that work. And so I, you know, I just couldn't, I just don't buy that. And I couldn't buy that. And I couldn't by being a representative in the organization without have without taking steps to try and, you know, shift those. And so one of the first things I did, because another Acharya was another full teacher, and I were, we're beginning to do, you know, take some anti racism workshops together. And we, you know, we realized just how profound this was he, he actually had grown up in another country where there was a different context around racism, and then the US context. And so we wanted to bring this to the local assistant teacher group, where we're, where we, where we live. And so we, we created a kind of a one day workshop around how, how important it was to understand just simple aspects of everyday racism, for example, or everyday bias, like microaggressions, and what kind of attitudes and what may also be surfacing in, you know, in the minds of our students of color on their retreats, as they're doing such a deep sort of, you know, what was called an operation of the mind, you know, a deconditioning process, that they may be surfing surfacing aspects of their experience of everyday racism, and, and, you know, can Is there is there a place of safety, to acknowledge that, or a knowledge base of knowledge and capacity to, to, you know, feel those kinds of concerns from the Dyess from the teacher seat. And so we, you know, we, we conducted this workshop, but it actually met with a lot of resistance, and, I mean, so there was certainly some receptivity, but it was kind of like, okay, that was a one and done thing. And, you know, there was no support to continue it. And, you know, and, and, you know, I understand from doing this work, it's very delicate work, it's very upsetting work, it's, it's work that involves actually having to look at all, you know, certainly I'll just speak for myself my own participation, right, in, in cultural instructional racism and how blind I am to it. Right. So that's, that's not easy work to do. It's upsetting work. And that, you know, that was the case. And yet, you know, it's similar, you might say, it's quite similar to the uprooting, that happens when you sit to meditate, and you look at your own, you know, false perceptions, or illusions or, you know, underlying tendencies around craving and aversion. You know, those those are, you know, in my book, those are very parallel, that the conditioning is very parallel and the way that we've internalized different types of conditioning, right. So to me, it's relevant work. But I saw that there was a lot of, you know, kind of organizational and institutional resistance to that work being done. And that was, you know, that was hard. For me, that was hard for me as a representative representative of the tradition.
Host 1:43:33
Yeah, it also makes me hearing this, it makes me reflect on some of the experiences I had, that I described, where I was encountering elements within Myanmar, of things that confronted the story that I was told about what this meditation is supposed to do for me and where it comes from. And it has wider context. And because everything was so wrapped together in terms of the messaging, there was no nothing you can take out, there was nothing you could put back in that a challenge to one part of it was to be a challenge to everything. And I saw that as well with when I would bring these examples of things I was finding, you know, the right down to the building really decided walking meditation. It was it was difficult to talk about just simply basic facts of history or basic things I was confronting, because they were at odds with what everyone knew was being said on the discourses over and over and over again, and instructions and just the culture as well and everything else. And so it became difficult to talk about this because even if you were only going to talk about one point, that one point really had was really a microcosm of starting to say, well, how can anything else be true if this part is not working? And that's that goes back to the the way that things are presented, it's presented in this, this this real overarching remedy for all of humanity's ills. And if there is one of humanity's ills that this technique does not rescue or cure or uproot, then suddenly that messaging is wrong. And if that messaging is wrong, what do we say about the whole thing? That becomes very problematic. And so I wonder if, in your questioning, and and confronting about some of the things you were finding with institutional racism, and trying to uncover how many, many years of practice had in this case, not decondition this, in some sense, you're not just talking about an organization that needs to look at met better managing diversity and things like that. But that's, I mean, that's, that's a big topic in and of itself, and a very important topic. But are you not also getting at this topic, that somehow this technique is not doing what it is? What is constantly being reported? That it must be doing? And therefore that conversation becomes very problematic, dangerous? And unsteady.
Jonathan Crowley 1:46:06
Yeah, Joe, you're hitting, you're hitting the nail in the coffin here. I mean, it's, it's really spot on. And that was that, you know, you talked about shaking, I think, when you were describing having some of these thoughts, you know, questionings yourself around the shaking that would happen? Well, when I began to actually question the practice, I realized that I was questioning something that was unquestionable. And that, that was so sacrosanct and a given that I was put, I was really putting my own sense of belonging to the organization in question that I, you know, and yet, I felt I had I, you know, felt I needed to do that. And, and I remember, you know, in response, you know, again, because I was having conversations with both my wife, Carolyn, and another Acharya, you know, on a weekly basis about, we were just kind of lamenting some of the aspects of the dysfunction in the organization, the emotional bypass a lot of the history of just kind of miss handling situations on a more emotionally integrated way. And, and, and, and yet, for me, it was it came, it kind of came down to the emphases in the practice as an facts kind of creating that bypass, that there were that that this split in some ways between if I can describe it as Yeah, just more cognitive level reflective work. And, and then seeing how those kinds of those kinds of more cognitive level, or you might say, grosser levels of reflective work, were also replete through the Pali canon, those practices are there, you know, which are much more contemplative, you might say, or, like I say, cognitive rather than sort of metacognitive. And, and, and this notion that doing this deep sort of purification work at the unconscious level, was going to do everything, you know, was not going to cut it. And, you know, I remember, you know, I mean, in going to these discourses he talks about, he gives this notion of, you know, uprooting, you know, cutting the roots of these defilements. And I fully agree that that's necessary, you know, but he makes that sort of exclusive or he's, he, he says, If you spend all your time, you know, pruning the trees, you're not going to, you're not going to deal with the roots. But I think, again, I kind of came, I came to this place where it's really a both and proposition, not an either or, and that the emphasis, as you say, you know, this purporting that doing it at this unconscious level of purification level only was going to solve all of it and became, you know, you know, less and less. I saw it as actually causing a lot of the sort of dysfunctional attitudes, the mindsets the compartmentalization that I was experiencing and seeing in other people's the suppression, the, the kind of adherence to rigidity and the way that students I would see newer students striving with their practice that, you know, all of those pieces, I began to see as as coming out of this over emphasis at this sort of metacognitive level. And that you you need that integration, you need the both and you need, you need practices that are also cultivation, that are also reflective, that are contemplative, that are working maybe on more cognitive aspects of using opposites or turning away from all these things. that are in the Pali canon. And that describe a much broader ways of working, that the Buddha also taught. And so I was suddenly sort of, you know, I was being more and more confronted with that, the limits of that and the kind of dissident.
Host 1:50:20
Yeah, right. And I think we're getting to about the end of this current session. But what all that makes me think where all this comes together, you know, the looking at where the technique came from the Pali Canon looking at the antiracism analysis and perspective that you were bringing, looking at some of the things I was confronting with Burmese history and Burmese Buddhist culture and monasticism that was divergent. For me, these are these three are extremely different fields. And yet, where they come together for me, is this question of, of how we examine and talk about this, given the context of the messaging that came. And to do this, I mean, what what is it? There's no other way to say it really, then I guess you have to go back in and unpack the big man's message, you know, the big man meaning Glinka that, there are certain things that he sets down for whatever reason, and that's a whole other other element to go into is the reasonings behind some of the decisions that he made. And the way he set things up and the way he presented them, given the context of the times his background and psychology and where he was coming from when he was trying to achieve whatever whatever the reasons for why he did what he did. That's one one element. But the fact is that he did them and that these, this dynamic, and this rhetoric is there, it is something that's present. And so as far as this kind of, what's the word, that word, I want to use this, this confident, and all encompassing and optimistic, and this statement of certainty, that that comes to describe everything from I mean, these are, these are just three of many, many things we could talk about, you know, how it references Burmese history, how it references the Pali canon, and what it does and does not do in terms of honoring diversity and making it inclusive and welcome for all as well as how it on a wider scale. But that's a microcosm of how it's been able to respond to all various kinds of conditioning and where it doesn't. The problem as I see, it, is that to me, in many ways, I have a lot of sympathy for those that are in leadership and representatives of the organization is they have this really unequivocal, very strongly worded message that that is, is, again, is going back to this to this remedy for all of the ills that plague humanity and presenting a streamlined version of history, both going back to the Buddha's day, as well as it's, it's, it's, it's traveled through Burma. And it's presenting something where there's really in some ways, there's really no wiggle room, it's really this, this, this defining message that not only defines very clearly what the technique is, and why the technique itself is of the utmost value, but also the culture and the context and the methodology, surrounding that particular technique. And so whenever you start to get into these other, these other elements, that we're talking about these examples that we're going into, even when one doesn't have the intention of wanting to present a challenge, or to call something out or to, you know, to do damage or whatever, you're just simply referencing something from your life, it comes into contact with this unwavering message of confidence. That, that, that simply doesn't have any ability for to be able to maneuver and to be able to negotiate and to be able to critically think about and and to examine, because it just is. And so I don't being a member of that organization, especially a member of standing, I don't know how you honestly or critically take in these kinds of arguments and statements, where you're also allowing an examination of these things which are not to be questioned and not to be. And so I don't know where you go with that.
Jonathan Crowley 1:54:22
Well, and that's Yeah, and I think we're, we're describing a moment here where that competition was, you know, really erupting. And in some ways I was, you know, I became, you know, through different folks who I was speaking with, you included, of course, at the time, you know, was I was confronting several boxes that were not to be question and, and, and again, and I know I mentioned what those boxes were, but I, you know, again, I was I was still in a place where I was so idea like, you know, I've never lost sight and still don't you know about the the transformational part of this practice, you know, so to be questioning it was very disturbing, because it was so that certainty that you you are describing it, it was coming from a place of just incredible idealism and a sense of and sense of purpose and a sense of mission in my own world, as well. Both, you know, internally and externally of being a teacher in the tradition. And so, yeah, the boxes that I was coming up against that I didn't feel like I could question were, you know, one, the box of the teacher of going koji himself. I didn't, I didn't feel like there was room to question, how, you know, his positioning in the organization, there were so many aspects of it that were not questionable. The other box was the practice the technique, the Vipassana, as taught by SN Goenka, you know, in the tradition of Syed you back in that practice was considered sacrosanct, you could not question the tenants of that practice, right. So that was in another box that I felt that I was, you know, struggling with. And then two other boxes were the organization and the, the sort of, you know, the sense of tradition, and the culture and the mindset of of that of, you know, you might say the, you know, the tenants of the organization, and but even the way the organization held itself as in some ways its own, it held a kind of a purity about its mission, right about, its standing in the Buddhist world about its, or, you know, okay, let's, let's take out the word Buddhist, but, you know, as, as a harbinger of the second sauce, and the, you know, the pure Dhamma you couldn't, there were so many aspects of that, or if the organization, the tradition, and the tenants of that, and the mythology, history of that, which I would say is almost its own box, you know, the chain of teachers this on, you know, this unchanged practice. That, you know, those are two other boxes that I felt like, I couldn't question and yet inside, I was uncovering, you know, you know, inaccuracies or incongruent ease that, in fact, the evidence was that I needed to question it. And so that presented itself, you know, and this was, you know, again, this was beginning, you know, I'll go back to, you know, 2014 2015. So, yeah, about about eight years ago, seven or eight years, you know, eight, nine years ago, and, and there was still a lot ahead of us, you know, in terms of how I thought, Okay, well, maybe I can maybe as an as a representative, because I was, as these disc discontinuities were surfacing. I said, Well, okay, what what can I do in my role as a representative because that role was becoming more and more uncomfortable for me?
Host 1:58:13
Yeah, well, I think that's probably a the two hour mark here. That's probably a great place to leave off a great To be continued.
Jonathan Crowley 1:58:21
Oh, great job. I really appreciate this. And yeah, just I'm just loving our conversation. So thank you so much, and to be continued.
Host 1:58:50
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