Transcript: Episode #248: ASEAN’s Inconvenient Humanitarian Crisis

Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.

---

Host 0:13

You're listening to a special version of the Insight Myanmar podcast, which covers the fallout from the military coup and the Democratic resistance. During this crisis, we are not only ramping up the production of our podcast episodes, but also our blog and other social media platforms as well. So we invite you to check these out. Along with signing up for our regular newsletter. All of our other projects have been paused indefinitely so we can focus entirely on this ongoing emergency. But for now, let's get into the show.

Brad 1:40

Welcome back, my guest today Adelina Kamal has an illustrious career coming from the the inner workings of ASEAN and the political and diplomatic realm within that to having let's say, soft departed ASEAN to now working around and outside to bring a different perspective to the crisis in Myanmar, but also to the ways in which the local international community could be and perhaps should be taking a more serious approach. So other than that, I'd like to thank you very much for joining us today. And I'd like to give you a chance to give a more full resume and rundown of your your experiences to our audience.

Adelina Kamal 2:26

Well, greetings from Jakarta, first of all, Jakarta, Indonesia. My name is Adelina karma. As you said, before I was with the ASEAN system for almost 30 years. Well, to be exact, 27 years. And I often mentioned that I have more than a half century no no quarter century experience with ASEAN because it's pretty long, 27 years 22 years with the assessment area. Now it is known as the ASEAN headquarter it is now called the ASEAN headquarters based in Jakarta, Indonesia. And then I moved out of the essence Kataria at the end of 2016. And I joined the ASEAN coordinating Coordinating Center for humanitarian assistance, or the AHA Center, which is one of the ASEAN bodies charge to facilitate ASEAN collective response to natural hazard induced disasters is called the AHA Center, also based in Jakarta. And I joined the center first as the deputy Deputy Executive Director and then Executive Director for almost five years during the period of 2007. Teen to 2021. So altogether 27 years, more than a quarter century, almost three decades. People always associate me with us. Yeah, and that kind of like my identity. And perhaps I was stuck with it now. In a way because I have always been known as working for ASEAN. I started working in as in 1994, not too long after I graduated from from university. And at that time, even Myanmar was not yet a member to ASEAN so 1994 I think Myanmar was admitted admitted to us in 1997. When I joined the ASCEND Secretariat in 1994, it was only like six members of ASEAN Brunei was already a member of obviously we have the five founding fathers of ASEAN, Indonesia included as one of the five founding fathers of ASEAN so it was really like you know the time when I say UN was still progressing to to become the 10 member nation as it is now. It's going to be 11 members as Timor Leste is going to join ASEAN, very soon. Now, as you mentioned, I'm out of ASEAN, I'm professional independent, I'm basically independent. And this is like the first time I'm independent. I have never been independent before, I never took a break actually, in between positions, even when I moved out of the essence Secretariat at the end of 2016, and then joined the art center, it was only like one month break. So I never took a break my life for almost 30 years, you know, I dedicated myself for almost 30 years to ICN. Basically, I grew up together with ASEAN and I have become the person I am right now. Partly because of ASEAN, ASEAN has shaped me as an individual. So So then, when I left ASEAN in August 2021, after serving as the executive director, which is actually pretty big deal now, leading the Art Center as the second executive director, the first female executive director. The appointment was it was an appointment by all the 10 ASEAN countries, although I was nominated by Indonesia, but I had to go through a process a competitive process and all of the 10 ASEAN countries in the governing board had to agree to the appointment. So it was a big deal to be, you know, to be approved to be appointed and approved by the 10 countries and to lead the, the Art Center. Now, I myself with the US and there are I have very strong attachment because I drafted the ICO drafted the two regional agreements that basically gave birth, the AHA center. So the first was the US an agreement on disaster management and emergency response. Ad le AR or we call it admitted sounds like a French at mer, which was conceived using the Indian Ocean tsunami in mind by the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami that affected a few countries of ASEAN including Indonesia, Thailand, some extent Malaysia and Myanmar, as well as the surrounding countries. I was involved in the drafting and negotiation of that agreement. And the term has center you know, the idea of having center with full timers that would facilitate us and collective response to natural disasters such as Indian Ocean tsunami. It came up during the negotiation process and I was the one who put the name of our center into the draft document based on the suggestion from the ASEAN countries. So I was very much involved. At the time, I was still with the SS Kataria. That was 2004 2005. Right? I was still with the ASEAN Secretariat. And then two half years later, in 2017, when I got appointed as the executive director, I mean, it's, it's kind of like, unimaginable that, that yeah, I never expected that what I was with the SSC group that I would get the chance to lead the Art Center at the later stage. So I build the Art Center, even though I was the second executive director, but I built the art center, you know, from just a document, right from just a name in the disaster management agreement and into a full fledged center. So when when I left, the House Center, I think already gained some prominence and the credibility and at least seven regional organization came to the center while I was still with us and skated as well as when I was with the center to learn about, you know about the center because it's it's not too common to find a regional organization that is able to come up with collective actions on the ground meaning it's not just like, when there is a natural disaster you go You know, represent ASEAN and bring a team No, it's not just like that everything in ASEAN has to be a good first by all the 10 ASEAN countries. So it took a lot of effort to establish something, and to make it work, and to actually have a collective response, to agree on the standard operating procedure to, to establish the, you know, the regional stockpiles, to deploy assessment team to trained the assessment in the experts, and all that to build the trust and confidence of our standoff partners and so forth. So I was very much involved in building the AHA center from planting the seeds, making, you know, making it grow, taking it off, together with the first executive director. I was really the essence of it. And then after, after he finished his five year term, then I got, you know, I got the trust to to lead the center from 2017 to 2021. So that's, that's my background. I have always been passionate about ASEAN, as, as I said before, people always, you know, associated me with ASEAN. So they, they've, I think they were kind of like shock when they found later not, not long after I left. So I left the AHA Center. My tenure ended in August 2021. At the time, we experienced already read the crisis in Myanmar with the coup in February 2021. And the ascent leaders coming up with the ASCEND five one consensus and our heart center was really tasked to facilitate humanitarian assistance to the crisis affected people.

So two months after I left the AHA center, I, I wrote an article and it got published by the Jakarta Post at first it was colleague at the CSIS, Indonesia, they asked me to write for them about the ASEAN what should be the ASEAN approach for the Myanmar crisis. And then, apart from getting it published by CSRS, I decided to also share it with the Jakarta Post and then they publish it in October. It shocked people because I was really critical about assets approach to the Myanmar crisis and inconvenient ASEAN led approach to Myanmar crisis where we're basically I said that you know, I questioned the issue of her center being tasked to facilitate the assistant to the crisis affected people i i basically questioned the issue of trust of the people that you know, through the US and the whether the inter assistant facility better has has entered actually win the trust of the people and then I I really like you know, grilled the the fact that whether whether ASEAN has to deal has to has to work with the with an outfit that killed their own people. So, you know, this this were actually the question the dilemma that I had while during my last year with ASEAN, so and, and given that opportunity, well, I kind of like provoked at first by CSIS know when they caught me Adelina EBO Adelina now you are out of ASEAN, perhaps can say something about this more freely. And it took me a while, you know, to say yes to them. It took me a while. I had to muster my courage, basically to say yes. Because because I love ASEAN. And I think that was really like the turning point, right, the turning point. This I, I, when I when I left, I didn't want to deal with us anymore. To tell you the truth. I wanted to take a break. And not not because I was fed up with us. Yeah, no, I really wanted to have a break. I hit 50. So I really wanted to have like a real break. It was also during the time when, you know, we all had to experience coffee, right? The coffee period was really like a difficult time. So I really like wanted to have a break from work just to be set what I want to do, you know, with my life, perhaps you can come call it as a midlife crisis perhaps. But really it was it was really an important call made by CSIS. And I really had had to muster my courage and an event, I had a conversation with one of my good friends. I consider her as a mentor. She's also humanitarian. And I, and I asked her she's not Indonesian, by the way. And if she listened to this podcast, I think she knows that I'm talking about her. But I always look up to her and and I asked us her, What's your I do? I have, I'm given this platform, and I'm now independent. I have my own thoughts. What should I do? Right? She didn't. She didn't lecture me I didn't also give her give her details. But she just said Adelina only fear. Allah. Only fear gut, right. My mom just had a stroke. And she she was afraid that that will be captured by the Maroondah. I told her but the the article, my husband is fully supportive. But it was because of what my good friend said that I should only fear Allah that should speak speak up. I have I have the privilege to be able to speak up. And I'm given the that platform, what should i What should Who should I be afraid of? Right? I should not be afraid of people. I should not be afraid of anyone. I shouldn't be afraid of only God. So that's what I did. And I think I think my the way I approach the crisis actually turn almost like drastically because because then because I had nothing to lose. I perhaps you people would say that. I was too naive, right because and then they said you you will burn the bridge Adelina. But I think it's it's too much to see, you know, I think the so called midlife crisis, perhaps but really, it was like, the moment because I knew that that ASEAN could have done better, that ASEAN should do better. And all of us should do better, that we have to leave the fact that perhaps our center is not the right vehicle for facilitating human assistance, that when it when it comes to humanitarian assistance, we should go back to the objective there is a alleviate the suffering, of those affected, help the people right and also protect their dignity. And trust is the cornerstone of human assistance. And in a political crisis in a crisis. Second, Myanmar, who is behind a system is often much more important than the system itself. Of course, perhaps people said that, okay, I really know you're just being too hard. on us, yeah, no, no, no, no, because I think trust is important. And then we have always been promoting localization, the role of the local communities and that we are all including regional organizations should be behind supporting right. And others like the international community should support as and when necessary. So if we are really truly to the word localization and we should also question ourselves, are we actually the right the right vehicle, other means of providing aid. And, and, and I put it up also in the article for the Jakarta Post. Should we go seeder, the one that killed their own people as the focal point because the disaster management agreement that established the center is based on a disaster, international disaster Ra, that basically says that assistance is provided when the country affected by an the by the natural disaster request for assistance, or when our offers of assistance is selected. So it's based on consent. Right. So the question that I had when I was still the executive director, and the question that I had, when I wrote that article was that if, if it is based on that premise, but then if the focal point is under the instruction of the one who killed their own people, and first of all, that outfit is illegal and illegitimate. By the definition of both domestic and international law, why should we actually facilitate a system through this outfit? Is there any way of reaching the people? So that's where I thought okay, and then I, you know, read a lot of articles, I talked to a lot of people, right? Well, actually, I already talked to a lot of people, even when I was still inside the system, although I couldn't not be too outspoken, but it didn't stop me from talking to people discreetly, and consulting them. Right. And I think that's also the reason why some people reach out to me, because they knew that I was always a contrarian inside the system anyway. So so. So the question about is there any other way, you know, to reach to reach out to the population if you are not trusted? Is there any other way, there are other ways that, for example, through cross border aid, through the community, led community based community led civil society groups who have actually been providing immediate assistance to their own communities. So I, I, I, I suggested that ASEAN should, should, should change their approach. Sometimes, you know, even if we have center gap, the US to facilitate system, it doesn't mean that we have to do it ourselves, no, we can facilitate. So when it comes to humanitarian assistance, I think it is more important to really see who can be the most effective. And they are actually those local agents. Not only that, they are most affected, but they are also trusted by the people affected by the crisis. If I were If My people got killed, right God and humiliated by the junta I would not want to get help from from the junta from those who killed my people, are those who work with the junta know, how can I trust them? Right, so I tried to like position myself and, and really like, question as they go that that's basically you know, how I came up with that article, but it was really like, a process you know, it was it was the process where I shifted some of my friends in the in the in the pro democracy movement said that, oh, Adelina you're moving now to the dark side, because I'm on the side of the rebels, but you can also argue that I'm moving to the light side like the, the rebellions versus the Empire, but that was really the turning point. It was like, like, both spiritual and perhaps religious moment for me that basically pushed me to, to to be critical about ASEAN to to, for for ASEAN on good. Yeah. It is important for, for some of us to, to to be a loving critic and critical lover of ASEAN because otherwise ASEAN will language if our lovers are uncritical, and our critics are unloving. And I got that from a Singaporean called Professor Tomiko. He wrote in an article but single Singaporeans it is important for some Singaporeans to be critical to have to be independent thinkers and, and willing to to be criticized by both internal as well as outsiders. Otherwise, then a Singapore will not thrive. So I got inspired by him. And then when people ask, Oh, Adelina Are you? Why are we? Are you doing that? Why are you exposing the dirt, but I'm not actually exposing the Dirge of ASEAN. I do it because I love ASEAN. And I think that ASEAN can be better. But since I'm no longer Assad the system I, I continue to contribute to ASEAN, by becoming that loving critic and political lover,

Brad 26:05

The first question that I need to ask, and, again, I hope he doesn't come across too critical of ASEAN, but you talk about the difficulty that you faced internally, and the fears that you faced in coming out and criticizing ASEAN, even though you do it with the experience of having worked in ASEAN in a high position, having seen the benefit, continuing to believe in the benefit of ASEAN, and yet, with all of these credentials, and all of these reasons to believe that your criticisms are positive criticisms that are designed to genuinely improve ASEAN, you still had a lot of hesitation and a lot of fear in coming out and and criticizing ourselves. And the question that I have here is, do you think that there is a culture within and around ASEAN, that makes improvement and that makes change? And that makes progress difficult? Because people who wants to bring about improvements and changes feel that they cannot safely and openly criticize the things that are bad?

Adelina Kamal 27:17

Okay, well, I think it depends on on the leader, there were there were periods, or moments when I was with ASEAN, when it was okay for me to be critical. For example, when I was still with the US and Secretariat, and we had this Secretary General back then his his a tie, he already passed away. His name was Dr. Surin pitsuwan. May he rest in peace. So Dr. Swan was became the Secretary General, during a very difficult period, because that was the time when cyclone Argus happened in 2008. I think he He just joined ASEAN as the Secretary General. And that was also a critical moment because the ASEAN Charter, the Constitution of ASEAN, was also in the making and being enforced During his period. So he came at the critical juncture of ASEAN, but I remember, well, he was one of those leaders, and was very rare. I think he's very rare. I don't think that we have that kind of, you know, that kind of individuel anymore within ASEAN. But he allowed he allowed me to be critical of himself and of ASEAN Secretariat. So I think it also depends on on, on who the leader is, when I was with the heart center, I was actually number one, right. I was number one. And I reported directly to the governing board that consisted of the heads of the disaster management organization of the ASEAN countries. But you see, I think, I think the governing body at the time was had full confidence in us and when it comes to natural disasters, why because natural disaster natural disasters are considered as non contentious issue. Yeah. It's something that happened in most of the ASEAN countries. Most of our ASEAN countries except Singapore and Brunei, to some extent, are disaster prone. Right. We are the 711, the supermarket of disaster. And that includes Indonesia, Philippine and Myanmar. Those are the top three most disaster prone countries in ASEAN. But natural disasters are not the contentious issue. You know, it's it's something that in terms of the, in terms of the concerns, the issues, these are shared problems, right shared problems, challenges, and these are not political. So I was given actually the privilege of leading my organization and shaping the art center, you know, the way I wanted our together with the member states, right? We I think we did very well. But the, you know, the disaster management falls under a pillar of ASEAN called the ASEAN socio cultural pillar, there are three pillars of ASEAN, ASEAN political pillar, ASEAN socio cultural pillar and ASEAN Economic pillar, I think economic pillar talks about the ASEAN economic integration, the US economic community and all that. So check out your pillar, apart from disaster management, issues like health, social welfare, environment, culture, information, women, children, you know, these are the social socio cultural pillar, and then the political security pillar. Now, when we talk about the coup in 2021, that is actually, it's a matter under the political security security pillar, not even under my pillar, I reported to a governing board that composed of heads of National Disaster Management Organization, and they report to the ASEAN ministers in charge of disaster management, then they report to the ASEAN leaders, right, this ministers in charge of disaster management, so, so I have to go through a long way actually, to go to the SAR leaders. And what happened in Myanmar, in February 2021. You know, it was for the political pillar, it was the group it was, it was for the political pillar to focus on. And ASEAN has been known as an elite regional grouping. And when it comes to the system itself, within within the system, the most elite grouping be those in the political security pillar. And, and, and everyone else, I would say, including the socio cultural pillar, as well as ASEAN, but it's like the Assam that we won't have to wait for the direction of the political leaders and the political leaders, or the ascent foreign ministers and the ASEAN leaders. When the when the coup happen in February 2021. And when the decision to assign the center to facilitate humanitarian assistance as part of the five point consensus, I was not consulted. The Governing Board was also not consulted. I have center as I mentioned earlier in my intervention was created with the Indian Ocean tsunami in mind we we have our own standard operating procedure, we have our own Disaster Management Agreement, and political crisis, War conflict, like what's happening in mewn, Myanmar, genocide, right, crimes against humanity, you know, you name it. These are not under these are not under the asset agreement and disaster management and emergency response. These are not under the agreement on the establishment of heart center. These are not under our standard operating procedure. So the assignment by the ASEAN leaders for the center to foster human tendencies, and it's an exception, in fact, what it was done before after the Rohingya crisis in 2017. But it's an exception, because I think so far only a center that got that special assignment from the ASEAN leaders directly, without even the ASEAN leaders nor the foreign ministers have us and consulted the governing board, as well as myself. Now, I don't blame it, right. I don't blame it on the ASEAN leaders for doing so. Because when it comes to the Myanmar crisis, any negotiation and any political debate, it's always difficult, right? It's dynamic and you you have to, you have to basically negotiate on the spot, and things are like moving and sometimes You just have to put it on the table and, and humanitarian assistance, often in political crisis or political debate, like what's happening in Myanmar, so often use as the bargaining chip right, as as a tool, because it's the most acceptable, non contentious, in a way.

Brad 35:21

So let me just interrupt you to ask an important question about this. Because you're drawing a very important distinction here between humanitarian assistance in times of natural crisis, which you're saying is very uncontroversial. Everyone agrees humanitarian assistance is good. And then political engagement when there is a political crisis. But what would have happened, and I don't know whether this actually did happen. during your tenure, I hope that it didn't. But what would have happened, if in an ASEAN member state, there were a major natural crisis, such as an earthquake or tsunami, what have you, which affects a region that is expressing poor relationships with the central government of that country, or that has an ethnic or religious minority that the central government of that country famously is discriminating against, and the central government of that country has gone to ASEAN has gone to the AHA center, and has tried to slow or withhold ASEAN humanitarian assistance as a political weapon? Because now the humanitarian assistance would it would become politicized? What would happen in that circumstance?

Adelina Kamal 36:34

Yeah, so it never happened during my tenure, but that is exactly why I pointed out the importance for us and to consider this in one of my articles I said that we call it by the way we quite complex emergency right in the emitter circle. So when so called natural disaster happen in a in a in an inner conflict setting or when the government is basically slowing down as you said, and so so for that complexity emerges emergency that happen that basically second Mocha, right last year, in Myanmar. So so that's when arguing my first article for the Jakarta Post, you cannot expect rambutan tree to produce a durian fruit, meaning that you cannot, we cannot use a disaster management agreement to provide humanitarian assistance for for a conflict setting like Myanmar crisis or the Rohingya because the context is different. And then also second, the premise is different because the disaster management agreement that established the center was created with the assumption that the government affected by the disaster is able and willing to help their own people. Right, in a situation like the Rohingya or the coup, the so called government is, is unwilling to help their own people. So so that I think has to be differentiated. Second, I think what is needed in ASEAN, is not to it's not to over rely on the disaster management agreement and the disaster management mechanism created by that disaster management agreement, that disaster management mechanism is called the AHA center right? It has been over reliance on the Disaster Management Agreement disaster management mechanism, there should be some kind of principle or code of conduct, but basically a decision by the ASEAN leaders if, if this situation happened, right, and either it is a natural disaster happening in in a conflict zone or conflict setting, or you know, what happened in Myanmar after the coup? How would we, how should we consider that authority? How should we treat that authority? How should ASEAN actually deal with it? So that kind of like code conduct is not in existence? And, and that was difficult for us in our center? And I believe in any, you know, for anyone in the Himalayan community, because because our center is part of that political organization called ASEAN, right. And this is a political crisis. And that assignment, that special assignment coming from the SL leaders came to us out of that political crisis. I wasn't gonna just move in no and then utilize the Disaster Management Agreement. Well, some people I Chile, within the member states asked me, I believe now why can't you just move in? And just drop the boxes? No cannot. And this is where I, I asked them, I question them. What, what is your end goal? What is the objective of our mission here, if the objective of our mission is just to drop boxes at the airport, easy, because we have done it for over 30 times, you know, our center. But when I was still with the center, our center already responded to campus traffic disasters, not only one right, more than 20 more than 30, if I'm not mistaken, at that time, it was 2021. So we had that experience of facilitating ASEAN in response to a catastrophic natural disaster. And not only that, facilitating one ASEAN one response, right, so So I think we are the good news in ASEAN, but you are you cannot use the political leaders cannot use the good news, right? The good news here, that is ASEAN, the, the pride of a hustler is the pride of ASEAN, because we can, we can actually bring the solidarity of ASEAN on the ground, but we cannot use that, in that context, in the context of what's happening in Myanmar, because we, we have yet to pass the bridge. And that bridge is defining how we, how do you call that coup in 2021? And that, for me, you know, as as, as the soldier, right, as the human soldier, you call it perhaps right? I need to know, as the executive director of us and I need to know, what is you cannot just send an army of soldiers, right? So did perhaps is not good. You cannot just send your troops your tools on the ground without telling them? What do we want to achieve out of this? Are we are we doing it just dropping the box? Again, easy, but if we really want to elevate the suffering of the people, and if we really want to make our assistant effective, right, not just performative. But effective? Then we have to be then then we have to really like question the things that I question whether it is the right focal point? Are we allowing our assistant to be manipulated by the one who bombed and who killed their own people? Can we can we allow the system to be directed because the agreement and disaster management and emergency response say that it is the affected country that will not only say yes to the system, give consent, but also in charge of the direction and control of a system, meaning that who should be receiving the assistance how the assistant should be reef receive, that is okay, if it is happening in a context when the government is able and willing to help their own people. And that's what, that's what we say, when we are respecting the national sovereignty, right of a country, we cannot just come in, you cannot just come into Indonesia when there is a disaster with your tourist visa, and then say that, Oh, I'm coming with my search and rescue dogs for it. And for 10 of strong search and rescue men, and I'm going to help you know, you have to have the consent. But that is okay, because the government is able and willing, and we are a sovereign state and blah, blah, blah. But if the so called government, which is not a government, right, it's illegal and illegitimate is killing their own people. Why should we actually rely on them for their consent? So the issue of consent is very critical. Right, and then the disaster management agreement cannot be used. The disaster management mechanism mechanism cannot be used for that purpose. It's an over reliance and I would say, abuse of humanitarian system. And therefore, I was so angry. I was so angry that a heart center was used by our political leaders. But again, I guess we have a very good examples because it's also being practice in other parts of the world. But it's important that I see and pass that bridge first, right, that ASEAN define how they call the coup, that the coup is unconstitutional by the ASEAN charter that we cannot use the That's a management agreement that makes the assumption that that government is able and we'll ask our focal point, then, you know, that analysis and then I combined that with what the Myanmar people say, We cannot trust the military because they, they want to kill us. We want to, we want to get assistance from those who eat rice, right? They're most effective, blah, blah, blah, and blah, blah, blah. Then Then, then that brought me to the other analysis, if you really want, again, to have our human data system, effective, then try to find those who can do work better, and those who can be trusted. And then concern using a state right. It's not always applicable, because it is the right of the affected population to get asst they don't even have to ask for it. And that's what the humanitarian say, in the case of Gaza. Right? They don't have to ask for it is the right is the human right, for those affected by the crisis to get a system? Now, should we actually get approval or consent from the one who killed just doesn't make sense, for God's sake? So that was the dilemma that I had, you know, when I was inside the system, I asked, Should we ask Choo, choo, really?

Excellencies should we should we consider that as the focal point you right? I mean, is there any other way of doing it, and therefore, even after I had that life changing moment, right? I wrote that Jakarta Post article and then after that, I wrote some other articles, and then I got approach by people on the ground. And I, I am humbled to be invited by them to see their own to see their operations on the ground. I traveled with them, you know, many of them, are women, courageous women. And basically, they, they they showed me they showed me that it can be done, then I, you know, I became more confident that this is the right way to go that it is possible to provide human assistance without needing consent from the so called state. And that what I call as human resistance, human resistance is still humanitarian assistance. And those who practice humanitarian resistance are humanitarians. The different is that they completely disengaged the junta, they go through other way. They they provide an alternative mechanism. And at the same time, they liberate themselves at the same time they make themself resilient, and at the same time, they are breaking barriers, breaking barriers, that's, I think, what ASEAN needs to see, especially in view of our history, and our and, and our promise, because the ASEAN charter says that we that ASEAN, your ASEAN charter starts with We the People of ASEAN. So ASEAN needs to transform itself from being an elite regional grouping dominated by states to a peep, a truly people centered ASEAN, when whereby the whereby the people is the ultimate power. So shift to a people centered organization that place people as the ultimate sovereign of that country of the organization, because that's what the ASEAN charter is all about. It's us with We the People of ASEAN. But right now, I think I said it's the dominant dominated by states. And many of them perhaps are not aware that their power is given by the people, right. I mean, that's what government means.

Brad 49:53

I mean, the obvious question that comes from that though, you yourself, you're in the Nishan you, obviously, in a very large, vibrant democracy, but a lot of the, the member states of ASEAN do not seem to share the dedication to democracy. In fact, I think we can safely say that there are certain member states of ASEAN who have a vested interest in preventing the spread of democracy. So what you're suggesting here, the idea that in humanitarianism and in ASEAN, in general, the people should be considered as the ultimate source of authority, legitimacy and sovereignty. Do you think that has any chance of being accepted by all of the member states?

Adelina Kamal 50:36

What is the likelihood? This is where I think Indonesia could do better. As one of the founding fathers, and I think that the Indonesia has not fully exercise is the leverage, as the biggest country, biggest democracy in ASEAN. Many actually have said that Indonesia is the de facto leader of ASEAN. And if Indonesia engages, if Indonesia is pushing strongly for ASEAN to thrive, then ASEAN would thrive. But if Indonesia is regressing in its democracy path that us then ASEAN is going to go with her. And, unfortunately, what's happening in Indonesia is showing that our democracy is not progressing is regressing. So I think we have come to the Dark Age, both for Indonesia, as well as for ASEAN, because the largest democracy in ASEAN, is experiencing a regress and not the progress. I'm not I'm I'm still hopeful as Indonesian. Yeah. Because I think you have heard about what happened with our Constitutional Court. The decision they made a decision a few days ago, about about the result of the election that were contested by the other presidential candidates anyway. I, because of what's happening in Asia, I think it will be much more difficult for ASEAN to realize our promise to the people as the people center organization. Because because of what's happening in Indonesia, the second group of leaders that in ASEAN that I would expect to exercise leadership in ASEAN will be the other founding fathers of ASEAN. That will be Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines and Thailand. Malaysia, you see Malaysia is having their own problem. Right. Malaysia will be come the chair of ASEAN but they also having their own problem. But they're quite vocal when it comes to the Rohingya as well as the Myanmar crisis. So you may be expecting something from them. I'm not sure about the Philippines. Singapore, I think, also very critical because many actually, there was a recent survey by the Southeast Asian Studies, Yusuf Isaak Institute based in Singapore, saying that out of the 10 ASEAN countries, Indonesia and Singapore are considered as those members in ASEAN that influence the most compared to the others. So Singapore actually could also should also exercise leadership. But, you know, although Singapore is strong in terms of its voice, but it is not the largest democracy, Indonesia is the largest democracy and it it is based on the principle of unity in diversity, right. And if we cannot thrive as a democracy, how can we actually make ASEAN as the people centered? Indonesia is not has not exercising our leverage the way I see it in the Myanmar crisis, and ASEAN to has not utilize other things that we could utilize? I'm not I'm not saying that we should be like those in the West, whereby we would sanction Myanmar because we don't have that sanction tool in our ASEAN charter, we don't have sanction and penalty in the ASEAN charter that those those were suggested by, I think by by a group of the eminent group, I think I as I read about it, sanction was suggested, I seem to become a union was suggested. But those words were taken out because that kind of like it was people, the eminent group, well, not the leaders, as the drafters as well as the eminent group to take them out, because then it's not in line with the soul of ASEAN. But there are other ways you know, of, of resolving the Myanmar crisis. And I think ASEAN, including Indonesia, in particular, Indonesia, know has, has not, has not utilize all the tools that it can under the ASEAN charter as well as the ASEAN mechanism to resolve the Myanmar crisis. The fact that there is an over reliance on the art center right, I mean, out of out of so many is institution and mechanism in ASEAN, only our center was, was mentioned following the Rohingya crisis. And in the ASEAN five one consensus for providing limited assistance. Of course, the ASEAN leaders, through the ASEAN Summit is the main mechanism to resolve the crisis. But they also had the mechanism in ASEAN, like the ASEAN, intergovernmental for human rights, the essence for peace and reconciliation, they ascend Declaration on women, children ASEAN convention on trafficking, the ASEAN agreement on maritime search and rescue, and so on, so forth, but none of this right, both under the political security and socio cultural pillar have been utilized. And they are like things like ASEAN human rights, dialogue, but when it comes to the Myanmar classic, it's got to be more than just talk. And that a lot, it's there, there got to be some action, you know, some some concrete action. So, so Well, I can understand why that the ASEAN leaders rely on us center for immune system, because it's a non contentious and non political, but the fact that whenever you open the leaders review or decision with regard to the Myanmar crisis, they say that, Oh, the five consensus, you know, we have achieved a few things you met the assistant number four always mentioned, you know, as a as something that is showing progress, because none of the other points in the point consensus are showing progress. But that also show that they're also show the, the weaknesses of ASEAN because number one, we have not fully optimize our mechanism. And second, the asset chatter that say that the ASEAN leaders can make should make a decision when it comes to a crisis, like what's happening in Myanmar. So, we rely on the ASEAN leaders at the summit to make that decision and they can make a specify a particular decision right. So, like, Ben bending, eventually banning the SSC from participating in the summit and there are some foreign ministers is one of the example of that particular decision, they can also make a decision if they cannot reach consensus. So, some have argued that okay, then the whole thing is wrong, because then everything is based on consensus, but the way I say it the way I say the way I interpret consensus is not absolute, you know, we should not be slave by consensus, because the ASEAN charter does say that when there is no consensus reached, then the ASEAN leaders can decide how they you know, how to approach with the issue. So they are actually opportunity opportunities are there that have not been utilized by the ASEAN leaders, and ASEAN is known to be creative. In difficult situations, like in psychoanalysis, I was involved in the response of second argues, one of the foreign minister said it was Indonesian foreign minister at that time has said that we actually move beyond sanction it was not sanctioned as defined by the Western government. What we gave was an ultimatum to the to the Myanmar government back then that What, you know how Myanmar government back then responded, you know, to the pressure on ASEAN would define what Myanmar means to us and and what ASEAN means to Myanmar. And that was that was really an ultimatum. And one of them like banging on the table. I was there, by the way, after the second argue, so I don't think that we exercise the leverage that we have, when it comes to ASEAN as a grouping, as well as Indonesia as the largest, largest democracy.

And I think, I think because it's been like three years, right. And ASEAN also is at the same time it's known to, to be taking step one step at a time. So okay, they introduce five, one consensus, and then I came in online. There's some respect the five point processes and then after that, because he doesn't respect then he will be banned from participating in this, you know, step by step. So we wait until that happened. And then we do the next step. It that is linear way of approaching things. What's happening in Myanmar, cannot be, cannot be tackled using a linear approach and an incremental approach.

Brad 1:01:19

It's reactive as well, it's not proactive, then it's not doing anything.

Adelina Kamal 1:01:24

Therefore, the way I say it, consensus and consultations are not bad things, you know, these are necessary. But what is happening Myanmar IK is an exception. And that exception is actually provided in the ASEAN charter that first of all Summit is the supreme body of ASEAN and the summit, right? Meaning the US and leaders through the summit has the power to address emergency situation affecting ASEAN by taking appropriate actions. And they can also decide how a specific decision is made when consensus cannot be reached. And as I said, consensus cannot be taken as a best at the face value. And non interference is not the same as indifference, indifference, right ignorance, the way I see it, the way some of the SM members approaching this situation look like indifference or ignorance or actively opposing. But again, this is where Indonesia and other founding fathers have essentially exercise their leverage, right? Because how can we become proactive? How can we become? How can we exercise our centrality and leadership? If you are not united? I'm just just accepted. We are not united in a in the way we handle the Myanmar crisis. And that is very, that is really obvious.

Brad 1:03:02

But how do you think they could because you, you said, you don't see a path for something like sanctions, but it feels like to draw another comparison, like if we look at the European Union, the European Union does actually have some punitive measures. Within the framework. It does exist. Not many, but they do have some. And the problem that they've discovered is that certain countries, Hungary being a repeat offender, are able to manipulate the way that the EU is supposed to operate specifically by avoiding a consensus by always being the one country that you know, refuses to agree. And there's no real way to to stop this. And so there was a period of time where you can punish a country, but you need the consensus of all of the other countries to do it. And because Hungary and Poland, two countries out of you know, like 27, or something, we're friends, if the EU wanted to punish Hungary, Poland would block it. If the EU wanted to punish Poland, Hungary would block it. And so the EU is in a state now where it's trying to take a legislative change through the EU's own legal systems so that they can create a punishment mechanism to try to minimize the negative effects of countries like this. And this is, again, the EU already had some level of punitive mechanism. And you're saying that ASEAN does not? Yeah. Do you think that it is possible to resolve a crisis like this without actually having a punitive system in place?

Adelina Kamal 1:04:33

There are other forms of punitive measures. As I said before, the ASEAN consensus should not be considered as an absolute consensus. And being being assertive to each other is not the same as being confront confrontational Yeah. I think I think some of us our members are afraid of being confrontational to each other because of our history in the past, right, Indonesia, you know, confronting Malaysia and all that. So we don't want that. But it doesn't mean that we can't be assertive. And, and this is where I think, Indonesia along with the founding fathers of ASEAN, let's say if Thailand is not agreeing with Indonesia approach, but Indonesia can get Malaysia, Singapore and Philippine right, or Brunei to some extent and Vietnam to some extent, to be honest that, which I think I saw that, but it it, it could be more why I said, so one of I think one of the best decision that ASEAN did in the implementation of the five prime consensus, the best was banning the SSC from participating in the ASEAN summit and ASEAN Foreign Ministers. But it should not stop at that. No, it should be made applicable to all meetings of ASEAN, including those meetings with the dialogue partners. So SAIC should have been banned from participating in all meetings of ASEAN and in an any activities of ASEAN, any community building activities of ASEAN including ASEAN Plus, I send you a summit, you know, or ASEAN East Asia Summit? Defense Ministers Meeting exercise? Yeah, there are many of these right, it should be banned from participating and benefiting from the the ASEAN activities and meetings. It is not the same as suspension, banning from participating and benefiting from ASEAN activities, not the same as suspension. But is it is it this, what I call a soft suspension. And even that was not taken. I suggest it. That was one of my suggestions. In my second article for the Jakarta Post that I certainly should reframe the five points consensus in line with the ASEAN charter. And that's where I suggested that the SEC should not have the privilege of participating in ASEAN institution exercise forum worship, as if the situation were normal, but their non participation only at the ASEAN summit and as a foreign ministers. And I heard also even in the past, though, the SSE leader as well as the foreign minister of the junta were not given the seat. But they could hear the discussion, you know, of the ASEAN summit and ASEAN Foreign Ministers so that that means that they're still benefiting and they could hear, you know, the discussion, they should, they should be banned from participating in all of these meetings. It doesn't mean, however, that we should, that ASEAN should stop talking to them. But they can talk to them. I see any the collective or sending representatives, a special envoy or certain countries like Thailand, because they'll talk to the junta right to tell that to tell the junta that to honor their commitment to the five one consensus. But they can do that, but not not by allowing them to sit in the ASEAN in all in ASEAN meetings, it makes life difficult no for for for organs and structures in ASEAN, including the center, including meetings, discussing the future of the children of ASEAN education women, as well as the dialogue partners who don't want to deal with anyone under the SEC, it makes it makes life difficult. One of the foreign minister have initially said that how can we operate a patient if he is still on the operating table? So that what I interpret sanction, we don't have to be like the West, you know, to apply punitive measures on on Myanmar, no, it doesn't have to be but we can work with the West we can work with the international community. And that's where the international community should not just wash their hands and let ASEAN take the lead. No. As soon as we still have to take the lead. It is our responsibility. No, but international community cannot just leave ASEAN behind because the international community and could In the UN, they have more tools that they can exercise. And these tools include sanction This is where ASEAN should work with those who can provide the sanction. Right. That is what I call the ASEAN un, this approach to the ASEAN led approach, ASEAN is still at the front with the others backing ASEAN up. Now, there is a difficulty, I know, in ASEAN to say it, you know, to say it, because it doesn't mean that, you know, the officials in ASEAN countries do not understand when I talk to them, you know, those in the capitals of the world, including in the region, they said that, I believe, nah, we don't agree with what the junta is doing. We don't recognize the SEC. Yeah, if you don't recognize the SEC, why do you allow them to participate, you know, that Singapore and some other companies have have been exposed right by the Special Rapporteur. And those governments in ASEAN have their own way, right, of disagreeing. But I think, because it is an exceptional case, it is very important for them to say it, right, that it is that the SEC, that the coup was an unconstitutional move, that it is incompatible with the ascent charter, they are not the authorized authority, you know, voted by the people, they are not at the same level as the president of Indonesia, the President of the Philippines, the Prime Minister of Singapore, they are not a government, right, they have to say they have to define sec, as it is they have to define that will happen in February 2021 was so good, and therefore, they cannot participate in ASEAN activities. They have to they have to and even if they cannot say it in action, I think there is an option by the ASEAN leaders to bend them all the way, you know, not only at the ASEAN summit, but also and the foreign ministers meeting, but in all meetings of ASEAN. So that's, that's number one that even that even that soft session is not exercised. Therefore, I think we have not done, you know, we have not optimized whatever to say we have under our sleeve, and Indonesia to Indonesia, could if Indonesia, you know, want to do it.

Brad 1:12:39

But does not say and have the right. Okay, because you keep mentioning the SEC and saying that SEC should be excluded from these things. Does ASEAN have that ability? Because the United Nations famously says we don't recognize governments, we recognize countries, does ASEAN have the ability to single out the SEC as a political entity and say you are not invited? Or is the only option I say on has to say that Myanmar as a country is uninvited what distinction is made?

Adelina Kamal 1:13:11

Well, well, first of all, I think ASEAN already in an indirect manner. They they already said that AC AC is not the legitimate government right off Myanmar by not inviting them to the summit and the foreign ministers meeting. What ASEAN also has not done, as I said, not inviting actually applying them to our ASEAN meetings, but also consulting and MUJI. openly, not discreetly.

Brad 1:13:45

Because that's that's what I'm saying. From the international perspective, if we don't invite if they don't invite the SSC, the message that a lot of us get, because we're used to the United Nations system is not or ASEAN does not recognize the SEC, the message we get is ASEAN does not want to talk to Myanmar. They don't want to talk to the SEC, they don't want to talk to the N ug the NUS. They don't want to talk to N ug that any Yeah, that's the message that the entire country is being bought. And that implies that the SA C's legitimacy is still being somewhat acknowledged.

Adelina Kamal 1:14:16

Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. Okay. If you if you don't recognize one, then then you then then people will ask you, then who should you recognize? Yeah, if we recognize that and you get is the result of what actually the people voted, then ASEAN should talk to the energy and embed and ug to the ASEAN Summit, and other ASEAN meetings. It's not only the issue of legitimacy, you know, it's the issue of having the right representation of the people. Because, again, ASEAN is for the people. So we have to include those that are voted and elected and and chosen by the people. Now, I think I think the reason perhaps some governments in ASEAN are not doing that. And collectively they don't want to do that openly. I think there, they still consider that the military, some of them, I think, no, I don't speak on behalf of them. But I think they still consider that the military is going to, you know, it's going to win. I think I think they, they are thing, underestimate the spring revolution. And what happened in Myanmar surprise, the international community suppress ASEAN, to and I think, right now, perhaps, as you know, right. Governments are, are trying to figure out what's happening in Myanmar with who we should take SAT in is also a misconception, I think, with what happened in Myanmar, like what Anthony Davis said, in on your podcast, and many actually have said, if you understand right, what is happening in Myanmar as a, as a people's revolution, which is actually the nature of the spring revolution. And if the objective is the same right with the people, that is to bring back democracy, and not and not only to stabilize the conflict, right, but due to bring back a democracy, then it will not be that difficult for, for governments for anyone of us to accept that and UGA should actually be the one invited to the ASEAN Summit. Is is governments they they are afraid, no, they are afraid nothing. Yeah, the military will resume power, they are afraid. So they're they're trying to be careful while they acknowledge that sec. You know, it's not qualified as the government they don't want to say it openly. When, when the things are, you know, turning against their back then perhaps, and they will, you know, say it.

Brad 1:17:20

But this is the heart of it. This is the absolute crux, right. Yeah, we recognize the national unity government. To my mind, at least, that doesn't just mean, you went to the racetrack, and you put some money on a horse, and you hope that horse wins that that's not how this works. If you recognize the national unity government, you recognize that the SEC is illegitimate, the coup was illegal, both on the on the ASEAN and under domestic Myanmar law, which it was. And you recognize that the Myanmar military is committing crimes against humanity, which they are and we have evidence, and you should take steps to ensure that the national unity government wins or at the very least, that pro democracy forces when it's not enough to sit back and hope and this is where the big, big, big, big question of non interference comes in. Do you think that that the time has come to take a more hands on approach because people are dying every day that that the crisis continues? Do you not think that there is an ethical impetus, and also a significance to the future of ASEAN itself, to get involved and handle this crisis and contribute very directly to ensuring that the military does not get to continue killing civilians and does not get to seize power?

Adelina Kamal 1:18:52

It is the existential crisis of ASEAN. ASEAN is in crisis to is not only Myanmar crisis, ASEAN is in crisis too. And I hope that ASEAN will exist no, and they get to come because really the relevance of ASEAN is being questioned here. With with what's happening on the ground, and with the nature of the spring revolution, which is really like, you know, teaching us a lot of things right, this older generation, I think it is really the time for us for ASEAN to do so. If if we want to make ASEAN matters to the people, that's number one second, there is an opportunity to do it and that opportunity comes when Malaysia become the chair of ASEAN next year. Because I think Malaysia has has openly said right recognize any G invite any G recognized and EG so so So I hope that Malaysia will become the next leader of ASEAN since Indonesia couldn't do do it, they did. Okay, during the chairmanship, but they could have done better than perhaps Malaysia with, with his own democracy. diplomacy can bring the case to ASEAN, that it is time for us to acknowledge the energy and knowledge those who are chosen by the people. And really like define, this is something that, you know, that is a threat to ASEAN, and unless we are doing something about it, then we are complicit in this crisis, we are complicit in the genocide in the crime against immunity, humanity, because we are prolonging the crisis, it could have been resolved faster. We, in ASEAN, we always think that, you know, that Myanmar should have listened to us, I think, I think we can have like, and that Myanmar junta, Hana should have listened to us. In the past, we thought that they would have listened to us, that would have resisted follow the five point consensus, so it's the wrong calculation, I think they need to have a new calculation. And it's already like the year of the crisis. So it's the wrong calculation. And an existential crisis, at the same time, the global order is weak, the regional order is, is disappearing in almost in existence, in terms of resolving our own problem inside our border. So, you know, it's really an existential crisis. Now, we cannot, we can also expect for those outside ASEAN, you know, to, to project their leadership, because they're busy with the their own thing. And naturally, ASEAN is put at the front, at the front line, and we should, and, and this is, this is a lost opportunity, this is going to be a lost opportunity for us, because ASEAN could actually use the opportunity to show the world that, you know, we are capable of handling the problem in our own back backyard, that that we are able to show, you know, a different way of doing things. Whatever it is, we are able to do so. And we offer new alternatives, right? To the global order. It's going to be a lost opportunity. So what while the world is so consuming with what's happening in Gaza and Ukraine, ASEAN could have actually exercised his leadership and show to the world that you know, we handle this crisis though, the ASEAN way. And we have matured, right, we are over 50 years we are mature. When it comes to consensus and consolidation. we redefine our way of consensus and consolidation, we redefine what non interference mean, we redefine what proactive leadership means. we redefine how we should, you know, respect the people, we redefine what democracy is, right now. It's very difficult, again, with what's happening in Indonesia, I have not lost my hope on initial though, it may. There may, there may, there may be things happening. But also, it could be the time for the people of Asya know, to to really push to really push hard on their governments. In the webinar that participated last Thursday, there was a suggestion I didn't know if we cannot if Myanmar people cannot have the responsibility to protect to be you know, to be implemented by the international community how about the people to people Responsibility to Protect meaning you know, that that the people together right of ASEAN are calling it out. But we we, I think also another thing Myanmar crisis is not something that is because Your exit criteria by the ASEAN people Institute, Southeast Asian VCs Institute for Southeast Asian Studies in Singapore said that some people are more concerned with what's happening in Gaza, right than what's happening in Myanmar, they are more concerned with what's happening in Ukraine. Not with what's happened in Myanmar, they feel that ASEAN has come too far, some actually even think that ASEAN has come too far when it comes to non interference, I think that probably come from the more other authoritarian countries, then the democracy countries that we have, they think that we have exercise our muscles, you know, enough. But we have not been using the right machine and the tools in the gym and consuming the right protein, right? We have not, we have not optimized optimize our mechanism. Now. It is also the time, the right time for us to learn from, you know, to learn from this, and I'm not sure whether the mechanism in NASA is doing that, you know, for the so called active learning, you know, fact base learning when the class is happening. And also like taking notes on what actually should should be done. For example, you know, just a simple thing, stock taking on the mechanisms within us. And that could have been utilized to deal with the Rohingya crisis to deal with the Myanmar crisis. And then also talking to the UN and the mechanisms, right, utilizing the things on the things that we don't have, like sanctions, what are the things that the international community can offer? I think that's also the kind of leadership that the international community wants from ASEAN for us, and to tell them what we can do right, to help ASEAN. But how can ASEAN do that? Again, as I said, if our stand is not united. Yeah.

Brad 1:27:07

So I do want to go back to something that you that you said a little bit before. And I want to double check, I know that you have a very sort of pro Austrian view.

Adelina Kamal 1:27:20

I have been very critical.

Brad 1:27:23

Or you have been very critical of us. You have been critical. But you have as you said, You've been lovingly, critical, lovingly critical. Okay. And I appreciate that. And this is one thing that I want to put to you because you said the five point consensus there. But the question is, you said with the five point consensus, that it was a miscalculation that ASEAN expected military to, to listen to ASEAN. Now, my my question here is, do you do you see it that way? Because I may be very cynical. When it comes to ASEAN, my interpretation was that ASEAN never expected that the military would, would follow this because ASEAN has experience with dictatorships. They know how dictatorships generally don't care about external pressure? Did ASEAN actually think that the hunter was going to listen to them? Or did I say and just want to appear to be doing something important, without actually making any serious commitments? Well,

Adelina Kamal 1:28:20

I may be biased here as Indonesian. Right. But it was Indonesia, who suggested for the ASEAN leaders meeting to take place in April 2021. I was not involved in the preparation. So I I was merely an observer, although I was tasked later as the Executive Director of our Center, with regard to point number four, but it was Indonesia who actually took the initiative. And and it was very clear that the foreign ministers of Indonesia it wouldn't know Marsudi went around, right had like, visited the Thai for a minister and the LSAC Foreign Minister in while she was in Thailand, it was during coffee basically she she did a lot of consultation. I really think that that ASEAN at that time Indonesia to so that, you know, we could influence Myanmar leadership. I think I think some in ASEAN genuinely want one wanted, you know, it was important is not only considered as important meeting, but it was necessary. Yeah. And why it was necessary. It's not Summit. Yeah. That is not the regular Summit. It was called the special ASEAN leaders meeting. And it was, it was in purpose. It was intentionally named as the ASEAN leaders meeting because we didn't want To attend, you don't want to give an impression that the SH s e. S AC is at the same level with the other nine ASEAN leaders because he was not elected leader of Myanmar. So it was a name as a specialist and leaders meeting but I genuinely think that some of the leaders of ASEAN including Indonesia, the the I think that they thought they could change, Myanmar, because that has always been, you know, that's what I had in mind. Based on the history of ASEAN engagement in Myanmar, for example, during Cyclone Nargis. Yeah, I was I was very much involved in ASEAN respond to Saigon, Nargis and ASEAN, I think, made a it was a successful attempt by ASEAN to change the Myanmar junta at the time to accept with the ASEAN led mechanism to accept the ultimatum right that Hassan Mira, you the foreign minister, back then gave to Myanmar, that Myanmar should open the gate for the international community to come in, and that ASEAN would hold the hands of Myanmar and not let the the vessels the French vessel to come and to barge in with the responsibility to protect. So Myanmar got one Listen, at the time, Myanmar junta listen at the time. So that was one example. Right, that made me think that the ASEAN leaders in appro thought that that the leaders, the leader of ACC would have listened. There was another example. You know, I just read the book by Kishore, my boo, boo bunny and Jeff Jeffrey, on the ASEAN miracle capitalists for peace. There was one example that he gave, and there was a strong statement drafted and, and Singapore was the chair. At the time of the shooting, the Assam four ministers held a meeting in New York. They participate in session of the UN General Assembly, Singapore was then the chairman of ASEAN and your shoe, basically, you know, suggested that perhaps it could be the amid the ASEAN statement of the nine rather than, you know, the 10. Right. That was after the Yeah, the shooting. The when the monks in Yangon were shot during the street protests. Yeah. It was in August 2007. Yeah. And it was actually it was it came as a surprise because the Myanmar foreign ministers at the time yawn when sad that he agreed that will be the statement of the 10 countries and that Myanmar should also endorse the statement and the statement said that we were surprised to receive reports of automatic weapons being used and demanded that Myanmar government immediately desist from the use of violence against them on traders and so on so forth. Right. So, so there were these two instances I think that kind of like and also other instances that made us believe that to Myanmar, SM was everything they had interesting to enlarge and I think it was somewhat miscalculation because then me online basically, but basically, S S S ignored ASEAN right. blatantly, and I think it was kind of like a mis calculation. And then when the the most senior leader, the most senior leader of ASEAN from Cambodia, the Prime Minister, Hun Sen. At that time he was the chair of ASEAN visited Myanmar visited not be though he was also you know, he was sidelined in a way his recommendation he wanted to to offer certain things but after he's returned and then there were there were there was an incident happening I'm not sure what what was that incident? Oh, it was it was the

Brad 1:34:34

The execution wasn't sufficient.

Adelina Kamal 1:34:36

Yeah, he just after consent came and tried to stop it. So it was kind of like blatantly basically is AC ignored ASEAN so I think the the estimate miscalculation that we saw that to Myanmar ASEAN was everything they had, yeah, but But now, it's not the case anymore. No It's not the case anymore. So if SSE didn't ignore ASEAN and didn't want to listen to ASEAN, are we still being too nice? Do we still want to be too nice to them really?

Brad 1:35:17

As well, like, I think it this should be a wake up call to ASEAN, I think because if it can happen in Myanmar, it can happen in in other countries, especially countries that have central sort of dictatorial or military, dictatorial, governments and and Cambodia, Vietnam and Laos, or non democratic Thailand, you're famously has been, has been struggling with its military influence in its democracy. ASEAN, I think, needs to look at this and say, Hey, maybe these countries feel like they hold more cards than they hold. And they don't think that they need to come to ASEAN, especially if they feel that Russia or China is going to continue to trade with them continue to sell arms to them continue to offer opportunities to them. I'm just I don't know what's going on. Inside I found but I'm hoping that there are a lot of very panicked conversations happening about this right now. Yeah.

Adelina Kamal 1:36:17

I believe that they are can they are candid conversation about it, but I'm very cynical here. Some ASEAN countries also have skeletons in our closet, right? So I think the Myanmar junta also knows that knows this. And the way non interference is practicing in ASEAN is right now is the traditional way of defining non interference, what we can what we can do is dynamic interference, right? You intervene when you have to. And I think one, one of the Indonesian Foreign Minister again, you know, I listened to two former Indonesian foreign minister in the national debate air by the CSRS, and it's unbelievable. And one of the things that we need to redefine what not interference approach of ASEAN, it is time because when it comes to violation of human rights when it comes to genocide, crimes against humanity, right, it's a matter of international concern, and not domestic matter. And there's a international consensus on that. So for ASEAN to we have, we actually have to question whether to what degree right, non interference should should be upheld?

Brad 1:37:48

Do you have a recommendation for that? Because I know you've wrote extensively about non colonial approaches to aid non colonial approaches to interference and non colonial approaches to political engagement. And I'm wondering, do you have any sort of, like, let's say, hypothetically, you got to meet with all of the leaders of ASEAN, and you propose to them? This is how excellencies I think noninterference should be defined. Do you have an idea of what you would say?

Adelina Kamal 1:38:18

I think there will be some other people who will have you know, that that will be a ghost with human rights, knowledge. And and I think also the credibility in terms of governing ASEAN, and there are some foreign ministers and some other people in ASEAN will be able to say that I think what I can offer is, is my perspective on humanitarian humanism. That's my background. And if I relate that to humanitarian action, he was a nice and if I relate that to the history of ASEAN, as ascend should have been the first who would say no to any form of colonization, and what the junta the Myanmar junta has done the way I see it is a form of colonization because it's pushing your power right to the people and the practice that man, Myanmar junta has been doing in Rakhine State, for example, the the divide and conquer right between the American army the Rakhine and the Rohingya, the divide and conquer that the military junta is practicing on the international humanitarian community with the registration law requiring that international organization NGOs, the UN have to register they want to continue to operate in Myanmar. And that also extending that to the local partners that they were they work with that also a practice of divide and conquer that's practice of colonial empires of the of the past. And nine out of the 10 ASEAN countries, actually all of the ASEAN countries except Thailand, right, were colonized before. And that's the reason also why ASEAN is very much careful with the interference from the external powers, and therefore the principle of non interference kicks in because we don't want to intervene in the domestic issues of the member state. I think that's the basis, the history. But if we go back to the 50s, and 60s, there was Indonesia, along with Myanmar, at that time, India, countries of Asia, Africa, if you remember the non aligned movement, and the conference in Bandung a few hours from Jakarta, in West Java, where we gather the leaders of Asia and Africa and basically declare that the that there should be an offer that we should end any form of colonization on the face of the earth. And Indonesia, together with others should work together and help each other in gully ending any form of colonization, right. So I think I think when it comes to colonization, it doesn't come only in the form of white people, white men, with their white horses coming to into the country, right. It can also come from your own, you know, from your own fellow countrymen. But this is what's happening in Myanmar.

Brad 1:42:03

This is where it gets so.

Adelina Kamal 1:42:07

I'm gonna get frustrated, because I think, Indonesia who came out of reforming and in the seventh and the eighth, who struggled for our own independence, Philippine who also went through the people's revolution, Vietnam, who won the war against, against the Americans, and the French, you know, really had tactics, right, we actually fought against colonialization we are against any, any form of colonization, and that actually should be manifested in the way we govern the country in the way we govern and external power. Now, I think we have been very successful in doing that, because, in the first few decades, ASEAN within ASEAN, they have been no worse right among the countries, and that should not be taken for granted. But as the world has progress, so much, right, that ASEAN needs to redefine ourself and that includes the way we can consider what it means when the when a crisis happened inside our own country when such practice of colonization happen and committed right by one of one of us. And, and, and what we see in Myanmar is basically that kind of manifestation. Now I know that people are driven, you know, to fight for something if they have the same enemy. So our enemy in the past was right, we, you know, ASEAN for us, and we want to be to be to be controlled by the major powers of the world, right? Um, so we're always like, driven by the same motivation, the same objective and we we will be stronger if we are united. So what's happening right now, I will say that is it is an existential threat it that Assad is in crisis because we are not united we don't have the same objective. We don't. We don't we don't know who our enemy is our enemies Our enemy is our self. Okay. And our our enemy is our relevance on how we actually contribute to the to the global dynamics to Indonesians How can we be more passionate about the children in Palestine? and not so much on the Rohingya that arrive on our shore. I mean, we were passionate with them. We, the attorneys welcome the Rohingya in the past, but only recently, right, they refuse them. And that's because of the hit narrative ignited through social media and all that. But, again, if if you look at what the Indonesian protests on what's happening in Gaza, have you seen any protests like that, at that scale? On what actually is happening in Myanmar? Why is it? And I will not say that it is because we are Muslim? No, no, I think, I don't know. It could be also the fault of ASEAN, because Because ASEAN has not ignited the feeling of V, you know, in the people of ASEAN. And I think I think this is right. Also, the last opportunity, you know, is that the time if we can resolve the Myanmar crisis, or at least contribute, right, contribute and not to drag on the fate of the Myanmar people, then we can actually show to the ASEAN people, including the Myanmar people that they mean to ASEAN and ASEAN means to them. Right. This is this is a last opportunity. I would, I wouldn't be surprised that the people, well, people could say, what has what's happening in Palestine dated back to the 40s. Right, with the occupation of Israel. But what happened with the Rohingya and what happened in Myanmar, they're very close to us, of course, we are not perhaps directly impacted with what's happening in Myanmar, the Thai people are affected more, but again, they're our neighbors. So so it is, the problem is the problem is, is on ASEAN, ASEAN is also in existence. ASEAN is in crisis, by not okay, now. They said that, okay, only Myanmar can resolve the crisis, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But at least what ASEAN can do is to be on the side of the people and not to drag on their feet. Right. And, and the list, right, the list they can do is to acknowledge the energy and to also acknowledge the aspiration of the Myanmar people, for an end to democracy, for a democracy to prevail, for an end of the military, you know, their wish for justice and equality and freedom, at least, that they listen, right, that they go along with that right. And that could be first by not allowing SSH in all ASEAN meetings, right, not allowing any SSC representative, not only the political but also also those who are working still under the administration of a sec because you empower them right. Right now. I still see Myanmar represent representatives attending the meetings organized by the center because the ASEAN leaders at the top cannot say that you cannot benefit from our community building exercise because you're not part of ASEAN right you're not you're not the legitimate government that's number one. And then get the energy to participate in ASEAN meetings instead replace a fill that empty seat with energy. And then number number three will be to have a longer term approach to the Myanmar crisis to to tell the international community when it comes to humanitarian assistance do not work with the junta you know, what was happening? In Myanmar insight Myanmar, I interviewed Myanmar people, they're there in the dilemma to some of the local humanitarians, right they they, they have to make a decision whether they continue with their job, right. And, and, you know, not pandering anymore with the NGO or the UN that are a desert or they basically were against the junta. For me, one of the things that ASEAN do is to find to make sure that anything that will embolden and empower the Myanmar junta are taken up right from the formula any formula and that including not allowed During the international community, allowing anyone basically right to work with the junta they should not be considered as governed what? Why would international community still work with them? So ASEAN should actually tell No, no international communities is our approach. You should you should not do it because we are not doing it as well. Now. I think right now, I will say it's a wishful thinking on my part. Because, again, as I said earlier, what we are seeing right now, in ASEAN is that democracy is in regress. And it will be very difficult right now. And I think, I will say that the Myanmar people are left alone. Some of them asked me utterly now, why should we care? I mean, you know, why, why should we care? And then I told them, the young people, right? The Myanmar youth? Yes, you should not let ourselves off the hook. You're part of us. Yeah. And if you ignore us, yeah. And if you, you know, you some of them said, Okay, we just we just, we decide we will not become Ma'am, I will not become a member of it. Okay, you can do that. But then you let me an ASEAN of the who you are, you are the future of ASEAN. But I will say right now, it's like what happened in the past, in the in, when Indonesian fought for our independence, right? We would have flown, we had to fight for our own independence internally. And we fought hard. And when we declared our independence, our leaders travel, right, the word to basically get recognition. One of the first recognition came from the Egypt. As soon as the fourth only four years later, the Dutch said that, okay, you know, we're not part of the colonies.

So going back to your question about decolonization, I don't like that word to tell you the truth. Because Because colonizing is is such an passive word. Freedom, you know, liberty should also be fought for is as if, like, you know, that the freedom and liberty can only be given right, that's the act of decolonizing. And some of us in ASEAN, fought for our independence, that would happen for Indonesia. So, so my message to the Myanmar people, it's not, it's not to let ASEAN off the hook. But I think it is the reality that right now they are left alone, but they are people right within, within the community of ASEAN. I, myself included and some other people, some Indonesians here we have, you know, we have some, some people here in Indonesia, some in Malaysia, and some in, you know, other countries of ASEAN who believe, who believe in the struggle in the fight for democracy this spring, I live revolution. And we, I'll do whatever I could, because I think, well, I am skeptical, but also at the same time, hopeful it is also, I cannot just sit down right and do nothing. Because there were cases in history, including Indonesia, and including ASEAN, that small thing actually can can change a lot of things sometimes. And, and we just have to try, we just have to continue fighting and for me, featuring the issue of Myanmar crisis to the ASEAN community and also at the international level through my writing, and also my advocacy. And now that I'm an asset of ASEAN, that that what I can do?

Brad 1:54:23

Yeah, the big question here, though, is because we're talking about, okay, you don't like decolonization as a term? I respect that. But the problem I think, that ASEAN has to deal with, if there is a dedication, to say, We will not stand for colonization, we will not stand for colonies. Many of the constituent nations exist in their current forms their current borders with their current centralized authorities, as a result of colonization and many of the constituent nations have been accused themselves hopes of acting colonially to populations within their own borders. I mean, Indonesia herself has been accused of this many times probably most famously Gideon Jaya. So now Buffalo and West Papa, Myanmar, a lot of what is inside Myanmar was not part of a single contiguous country before the British made it so and so there are very rightly complaints from communities like the you know, the Rakhine the chain that the Shan, that the central authority in Myanmar is effectively colonizing them? How, how then does does osteons position to oppose colonization approach this type of of colonial question

Adelina Kamal 1:55:45

is, again, going back, we have skeletons in our own closet, we want we don't want to expose right, our governments do not want to expose the ongoing the current mistake, as well as the mistake of the past. And, and this is where it is very difficult for ASEAN to transform into a human rights base organization where democracy respect for human rights prevail, it's very difficult. But if we are really like truly to what the ASEAN charter says about us, and being people centered, that that actually should be the basis. And if you ask me why I don't know, because for me, that is exactly what I see. Right, the act of colonization, but it's a new form of colonization. I mean, we have been saying to the west, we don't want to be colonized, you push your external assistance to us that also a form of organization and so forth. But if we are not improving, you know, ourselves, then how can you preach the others? I really don't know. I think, I think also partly perhaps, because they're part of a government. Right? And it is, it is important, I guess, I guess, when you have nothing to lose, right, when you have nothing to lose, and if you have not committed crimes against humanity, and you're not complicit in in any of this, right, then you can say that you don't want other, you know, other fellow members of ASEAN, right. intervene in your own problem and expose your authoritarian, authoritarian nature of govern governance. Right. You don't want that and therefore they practice indifference they, right. That's what they are, what happened and they practice ignorance. They, they reject what's happening in Myanmar, but then they also at the same time they are, it's a balancing act for them. They're trying to make sure that they're not going to be accused the same thing. Thanks. I see. Yeah. So this is where I think the role of independent outfits and independent individuals the important role of those who have nothing to lose, basically, and that is the importance of the people. Going back again, it has to be people centered, it has to be that the people is this ultimate sovereign power in Assam, how can we do that? Revisit the ASEAN charter, it could be that the ASEAN charter doesn't need to be re revised, it could be or it could be that what needs to be done is to optimize what we have first, right? And then at the same time, we use the momentum at for example, right now there is this drafting of the post 2025. And it will be declared next year. How can we take that lessons in from Myanmar crisis into this post 2025 visioning and drafting exercise, unfortunately, I sent has been too secretive. ASEAN has, you know, has has been confined to the elites. We don't have access to the discussion. What we have seen even right now I'm external, even when I was inside of ASEAN, right. I don't like to say this, but the political security pillar is the first class the other side of the second class No, it cannot be like that. It cannot be like that. Because then if we don't have our own mind when it comes to political crisis, and we can be the naked chest one, you know, we just follow the instruction. I'm talking about being you You know, the humanitarian actors here providing them to an assistant and you know, when the political leaders say so then we just follow that will be just, you know, mean easy, easy, meaningless. But if we are, if we are really humanitarian, right in nature, then we have to switch on the heart. Right. And not use only the brain and the hand, but using our heart intelligence and allow for dissenting opinions within us. Ya know, it's not only a scandal, even within the body of the UN, right, even outside of ASEAN, how many organizations that you know, would allow for dissenting opinions would allow for differences to happen? How many? How many would you know,

Brad 2:00:49

But small ones? Do the successful organizations allow for dissent?

Adelina Kamal 2:00:55

Who are the successful organization? Now, most people was Obi Wan will say people will say, Now, going back to regional organization, perhaps you would allow for dissenting opinion, is the most successful regional beasts, right? ASEAN come the second? Why I would say I think I'm to the second because other regional organization that I know, apart from you and ASEAN have not been successful as ASEAN. Standing, you have been the most successful and ASEAN could have won the Nobel Prize in 2017, as claimed by this book, written by Shama. Shama boo bunny, saying that, essentially, should have won the should should win the Nobel Prize, he wrote that book in 2017. Before, before the coup, and we should win the Nobel Prize in 2017. If you're less than the other regional organization, these are, you know, ASEAN and we are the most successful ones. You first perhaps with the economic integration, then ASEAN because we have there has not been any wars, among the members of ASEAN and the heart there, there are some successful practices and achievements of ASEAN, but we cannot just get overwhelmed with all those. One, and, you know, but our own back and say, Okay, we're doing okay, no, we are not, we are not doing okay. We are not doing okay, because of the Myanmar crisis. ebook, now, the foreign minister of Indonesia said that, oh, we don't want to be overshadowed by the Myanmar crisis. But that exactly, you know, you will be defined ASEAN will be defined by how it can deal with the Myanmar crisis. And, and unless it change is approach, and this is really like, the momentum, right, the momentum for ASEAN, for the ASEAN leaders to really like switch on to switch on their heart first. Not only their mind that is using their brain, and, and using their app, there is the hand but also switch on their heart. If anyone can just switch on their heart and relax, ask this question. And I think the privilege of being independent, like myself, is to be to be able to do that, right? Because that's what I experienced when I switch on my heart, which I did, when I was inside the system, but I, I make my, my, myself filterable by connecting to those who had different opinions, you know, like those on the ground, right? And basically, like, I told myself, just listen first, just listen, what you know, what they wanted to say, observe first, right? And then you you, you let yourself far hon. Switch on the heart, right. And then you I think you'll be able to see, you will be able to see and not get shrouded by all the other, you know, concerns of being in power or not losing your job now. So, again, it's not the privilege of everyone to have to be able to have dissenting opinions, right. There are people inside organization who can have dissenting opinions who are allowed to have dissenting opinion. They are leaders who allow that, right. But that kind of culture, I think should be embedded in ASEAN, because the context that we were we work with right now is different. But that requires leadership, you know, at the end of the day, when the when the body of the fish stinks, right, it starts from the head. So I always blame it on the leaders, the because the leaders do have the power to do something different. They can actually meet more frequently, for example, they can, they don't have to follow the, perhaps they do that already right through their retreat, they will openly talk among each other and foreign ministers to but whatever it is, when when you have that platform and the privilege to change the course of the history in ASEAN, then that is the responsibility. That's not the that's not only a privilege, that's a responsibility and that and I think we have not optimized it yet. If okay, if they say oh, we have tried our best then be open about it, why the implementation plan of the US and five point consensus never share you know, the civil society has been asking for it. The SM 451 Cause has to be not only Reeve reframed, but also revised right there are some specific recommendation coming from the civil society from the people of Myanmar. I have not seen why is the implementation plan on the five point consensus that concern the future and the life of the people of Myanmar never shared. ever shared, you know, okay, if you cannot share that publicly, at least in consultations. So, so this this nature of ASEAN being secretive, right, and you know, doing things in a linear manner, and resource process heavy, and all that, I think that that will have to be changed, and that can be changed. If there is an external force pushing that to happen, again, inspired by the Star Wars, right, the rebellion versus the Emperor. And anything that happened, any disruptive change that happened in the in the past decade, any disruptive change happen only when it is driven from an external force from something outside outside the system. I rarely see any meaningful change coming from those inside the system.

Brad 2:07:50

That's a bold statement to me. That's a strong statement to say that you don't see meaningful change from inside the system,

Adelina Kamal 2:07:58

Any system only disruption because I have seen this in the human design system right. We have been talking about it that in other podcasts recently published actually, it was yesterday about this as I asked, I quote for the human system to be dismantled to be dismantled, because right now they have been tweaking the system, what is required is to dismantle the system. That is with regard to the the decolonial nature of the system, the way decision making is made and and so on so forth right now. And I have been saying that it is very difficult for those inside the system to change. If we want to have meaningful and drastic and transformational change. Only external powers can do that. And these are coming from independent outfits, right? Who will be able to say things bluntly, because they have nothing to lose, and they're not afraid. I mean, the list that will happen to them is losing losing the funds from donors, but they can always go for other donors. Right. So So I think, then I will associate that I will read that with what's happening in ASEAN in ASEAN. I guess because I'm loving critic and critical lover of us and I am not asking for us to be dismantled. No. But I think there needs to be a transformational change within the body of ASEAN. And I do think that that can only happen if there is an external pressure coming from the outside. I don't think that this high level task force who's currently drafting and finalizing the post 2025 vision will come up with a bold vision, reflecting on what's happening in the world as well. As in Myanmar? I don't think so. I don't think so. I think we, I think you, okay, we can wait for that 20 25% identifiers to happen. But I think what's going to happen, I will bet on this, that ASEAN will tend to become a camp follower and not a trendsetter. So if you want to transform yourself, it has, it has to come from the external forces. And those external forces are the power of the people. So people to people, solidarity is important here. If we want to bring back ASEAN to the road of democracy, right, to the path of democracy, then it has to be the people of ASEAN, that make it happen. If you want ASEAN to go back to this so called people centered organization where the people is the ultimate sovereign power, then it will have to be the people, the people are the external forces, or the external forces, or the people of ASEAN doing enough? Not the Indonesian people because we care more on what's happening in Palestine, rather than the Myanmar and the Rohingya. I mean, we the people also are not doing enough. No, it's not only our governments. So how can we actually accuse of governments of not doing enough if we are not pressuring them to our parliament, for example.

So everybody has failed Myanmar people, including the people of ASEAN. Going back that requires a leadership, I listened to what can I say? I said, Okay, if I were the Foreign Minister of Thailand, and I would bring the other foreign ministers, right. I would do the same. So leadership matters, right. Leadership matters. So so the way I say transformational change, happen if there is a pressure from the outside. And if we also have metrics from the insight, our sight and insight. Okay, outside, that will be the ASEAN people. Other outsiders will be the partners of ASEAN, you know, our dialogue partners, the Americans, the Australian, the Europeans, they can also exert influence on us and the Japanese, right, Japanese gets a lot of assistance to ASEAN, how cannot be exercise that leverage. Okay, by not dictating ASEAN Yeah, but there are other things that perhaps we can explore further. Right. I don't know. But this these are the extra first forces that that I am seeing now. If the, if the Myanmar Myanmar crisis is also an existential crisis for ASEAN is equal, right. ASEAN Myanmar crisis was an existential crisis. Now if the people of ASEAN don't even get that even care, give a damn on what's happening in ASEAN, how can we expect that that transformation happen? Governments will just sit and relax. So the people of ASEAN what can we do? The civil society also have to be a united here have to get together, the people society, the people, organization, right, the civil society, have you done enough?

Host 2:13:54

Since the coup better Burma has provided consistent humanitarian aid to vulnerable communities across Myanmar. Over time, however, we have also come to realize that another consequence of the coup is a severely collapsed economy. Trade and Tourism have almost entirely evaporated, and local artists and community suddenly found every opportunity of continuing livelihood closed off to them. To help support those artists and communities. Better Burma now brings item direct from their workshop into your home. These lovely pieces from a far corner of the world will not only light up your room or make a lovely gift for a loved one. But they'll also help dozens of artisans create sustainable businesses and livelihoods. Part of each purchase will also go towards our ongoing nonprofit mission. See these beautiful crafts? Visit alokacrafts.com that's aloka crafts Okay, A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com. Of course, as is your preference. You can also consider making a donation through our normal channels. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup We welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need to post. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission Better Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. That's betterburma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's aloka crafts spelled A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration.