Transcript: Episode #269: Why Did Ashin Sarana Disrobe?
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Host 0:46
Whether one is listening to this in Myanmar or from outside the country, we know it is a very difficult time for those of us who hold the golden land and its people in our hearts. In trying times like these, we can all use a bit more care and compassion in our lives. So on behalf of the team here at insight Myanmar, I would like to say in the traditional way meta is offered, may you be free from physical discomfort, may you be free from mental discomfort, may You not meet dangers or enemies, May you live a peaceful and happy life, and May all beings Be free and come out of suffering. And with that, let's move on to the show.
Ashin Sarana 2:42
me sound amazing. So previously, I was known as monk Sarana or Ashin Sarana. I was a monk for about 16 years, and I was a novice for about four years in Sri Lanka. Then I trained for about five years in Myanmar. Then I moved to a monastery to teach foreigners still in Myanmar for another about four years. So I spent about nine years in Myanmar as a monk, and then I moved then I moved to the Czech Republic, and I then traveled here and there among Vietnam and the USA for about two years. And recently I disrobed. I became a layperson. It happened. It happened about a week and a half ago on Sunday in Canada, and since then, I'm no more known as Ashin Sarana or monk saranna, but I'm known as Jan Jansen. You would write it as J A N, S, E N, why Jensen? Well, my official name is J, J A N, only, but who will ever read it as Yan, which is the correct pronunciation, or Honza, which is how every Czech person would read J A N. So a Czech person reads J A N and says Hanza. Does it make any sense? Probably not, but that's the way it is. So who will ever read J A N as Honza, or at least as Yan, which Czech people do not read, J, a n, as young. Why would they do that so? So I have improved it a little. According to another friend of mine in the Czech Republic, who's a very good English teacher and. My teacher, but a good friend of mine, and he also changed his name from J, a n to Jansen. And he's using it for international purposes. It's because, you know, when you see Jan, people usually read it who are not Czech. People usually read it as Jan, which may be confusing as a female name, and I don't want to be confused as Lady, because I'm not a lady, and that's why I call myself Jansen whenever I meet with the people who are in a Czech and that's why I love when people call me Jansen. J, A, N, S, E, N, thank you.
Host 5:39
So thank you for that introduction and update into your status, from being monastic to lay. And I think this, this change in your monastic status and the lay status was quite shocking for many people. You were a monk, for a monk, and before that, in novice for many years, as we've talked about on this podcast before, your whole life's vocation really was geared towards becoming not just a monk, but a monk in Myanmar. And of course, that was once you became outspoken against the military regime and in support of the democracy movement. You were no longer able to stay in Myanmar for your own safety, but you remained a monk, as you said in Vietnam and United States, and you were it's, I think it's not too far to say you're revered by many Burmese Buddhists. You're something of a celebrity and well known and regarded for being one of the few foreigners who stayed in robes and Myanmar tradition for as long as you have giving sermons in Burmese and and being able to give Dhamma talks, meditation instructions, etc, to a Burmese audience. And so I think it's fair to say there was a deal of shock and sadness and dismay and also confusion over this what seemed like to many outside a very sudden decision without a clear explanation why and so one of the intentions of this discussion we're having here is to allow yourself to explain, as all of our guests do, from whatever their background is, your your story and your words, your reason and a long form setting, To be able to describe in some detail and background what was driving this decision and why, essentially, you decided to become lay
Ashin Sarana 7:32
Yes. So there were several reasons. One of the main reasons that I had to become a lay person I was because I felt like I had no more place to stay. I wanted to continue studying at a university. I started studying Clinical Mental Health Counseling at a US university online, but you know, as a foreigner, I would need to, I would need to have a good visa to continue, because it requires internship and practicum, and you cannot do internship practicum without good visa, like religious visa or or, let's say, some good visa that allows a person to basically work, because that's what an internship and practicum is, or at least student visa. But online study doesn't provide that, and that's why, after one year of online study, I decided to move on to in person study. And for in person study, well, then that means that I need to live in the USA. I can get my student visa. That's so nice, but I would need to have a place to stay. And would you, believe it or not, the particular place where monks are not allowed to stay is Buddhist monastery. Isn't that amazing? Buddhist monastery is specifically the place where monks are not allowed to stay. If it doesn't make sense to you, then you have understood it. That's the reality that I have faced. I, as a Buddhist monk, was not allowed to stay in a Buddhist monaster, you still don't believe your ears. If you don't believe your ears, you have well understood what I'm saying, because I also didn't believe my ears when I heard that. So there are several reasons why monks in the USA are not allowed to stay in a Buddhist monaster. Number one, because a monk like me who followed all of the roles, 91,805,036,000 roles, a monk who follows all of the roles, of course, has certain limitations. One of those limitations is that that such monk so. Such monk like I was, and such monk like 1000s and 1000s of monks are, and they're good, good friends of mine, and they inspired me to follow those rules. By the way, believe it or not, many, many monks actually followed strolls. But these monks are not allowed to stay in a Buddhist monastery, which a monk bought by his money or repaired by his money. So if a monk decides not to follow the rules, the world doesn't get destroyed. There is no Armageddon or something. But that monk who decides to break the rules and touch his money and buys a monastery or repairs a monastery through using money that he has himself, you know, accepted by his hands, be it in envelope or in ALMS bowl or bare hands, or whatever way he does that, then no monk who follows the rules is actually allowed to stay in that monastery. That is the role, that is the role it's explained in the ancient commentaries. You don't believe in ancient commentaries doesn't matter to me. I'm following Burmese tradition, and in Burmese tradition, we follow ancient commentaries. So I was not allowed to stay in a Buddhist monastery if a monk bought it by his money, or if a monk repaired it by his money. So this removes basically 95% of monasteries in the US from, you know, being available to me or to any monk who files roles. So then you have like 5% of those monasteries. Like you do not have that many monasteries in the US. So if you remove 95% that's quite a lot. So then you have 5% now the remaining 5% have two problems or three one either there is no more space. That's quite rare, but Okay, second, second reason why a monk is not allowed to stay in a Buddhist monastery is because he may be too successful. So then that's what lay people told me. I don't really believe it, but that's what people say. So they say I was not allowed to stay in certain Buddhist monasteries because the monks were jealous. They thought, Oh, if you go to that monastery, you Ashin Sarana saying, speaking to me, if you go there, then maybe lay people will be supporting you and not the chief monk. And that could be a problem for the chief monk. And then another reason is, whatever other reason you make up. So in other words, I was a Buddhist monk who was a senior monk. I had 12 years of high ordination. I followed roles very strictly. I did not make any troubles, any problems. I did not harm anyone. I did not cause anyone to lose a monastery or to lose donors? No, I never did that. I never caused any monk, any horrible things, any troubles like this, or any other troubles as well. But simply because I was a monk, I was not allowed to stay in a monastery. So it makes sense that a layperson is not allowed to stay in a Buddhist monastery, that I understand well, because Buddhist monasteries are supposed to be for monks and not for lay people. But I was a monk and I was not allowed to stay in the monastery. So to me, it felt like so. Why am I a monk? You know? Was that for I thought Buddhist monasteries are for monks. Whenever I explain this to lay people before I disrupt I was a monk, and I explained this to lay people, and I said, You know what, lay people, I am a monk at this That's what I said at that time. Now, I'm not a monk at that time. I said, You know what? I'm a monk, but I'm not allowed to stay in a Buddhist monastery. That doesn't make sense to me. And they say, you know that's the way it is, what? Yeah, that's the way it is, okay. Well, if that's the way it is, well, then that's the way it is that I become a layperson and I just rent an apartment and I can stay in an apartment. You could say, well, so you couldn't stay in a Buddhist master, so why didn't you just rent an apartment and stay there as a monk? Well, I cannot stay as a monk in an apartment, because I'm a monk at that time, and a monk cannot stay under the same roof with ladies. You know, when you rent an apartment, then in that whatever you call it, block of flats or apartment block in that building, you have different apartments, and these apartments contain human beings, and some of the human beings are either ladies or potentially are ladies. Now our the no more hour, but the rules of monks stipulate that if you have a doubt it's breaking the rule too. So let's say you get an apartment in a apartment block. Talk, and you know that there is 1% chance that there may be a lady in that house, and she may lie down to sleep at the time when you lie down to sleep too. That means at night probably. And if you think there is this 1% chance, and still, you lie down at night, even if there is no such lady, even if there is no such lady who lies down, you actually break the rule. So there is no way for a monk who follows all the rules to lie down in an apartment, in an apartment block where there's at least 1% chance, or whatever chance, that there is another lady or whatever in a different apartment on a different floor, whatever floor, regardless on which floor the monk is, even if it is the top floor, there's no way how the monk can lie down there to sleep. You could say, Okay, well, the monk then can sleep during noon, and the lady sleeps at night. Well, well, but you know, that's not really comfortable if you cannot lay down at night. So that simply was not the solution. So I could not sleep in an apartment. I could not sleep in a monastery. So there was one solution, and that was to rent a house, and then I would stay in a house. And to rent a house costs about $3,000 at the place where I would go to the university. And that's not enough, because as a monk, of course, I need to have an assistant. I said, I do not need an assistant. But the donors say, No, you need an assistant. I say, No, I do not need an assistant. They're like, No, you need an assistant. Okay, whatever you say, I need an assistant, okay? And they're like, okay, but an assistant costs $3,000 per month as a salary. So I would have $3,000 rent plus $3,000 in a system. Imagine that for one year. How much does that cost? Is that? It hard mathematics? It's not it's $72,000.
And that's a lot for one year for one single monk. And I thought, no, that's not a solution. So I had no place to stay, and I was treated like a layperson. Moreover, whatever were the roles, you know that I like ate. I did not eat in the evening, so I needed to eat in the morning. I was not able to store food, because that's the role monks are not allowed to store food. So always there would have to be somebody who would bring food to me in the morning. I was not allowed to touch money. So of course, there always would have to be somebody who would take care of me with everything. I did not use money. Use telephone. You could say, Well, maybe you could use telephone, but I, as a monk, I felt I should not use telephone, so then people need to be close by to me. And so it's like role, after all, after all, after all, and people didn't like that. And when people don't like things, they may not like things from one day two days, that's pretty okay, but when it is one month or six months or one year, then they happen to speak out. And when people speak out, and a monk follows all the rules, and that's too much. Imagine I was following 91,805,036,000 rules, which itself is pretty difficult, believe it or not. And in addition to following over 90 billion rules, being blamed for following those rules was too much, and so I snapped, and I became an I personally
Host 18:46
Right. So in hearing you say that I understand that it sounds like you had this decision in front of you. If you wanted to stay on in America attending this university, it would be extremely difficult, bordering on impossible, in your mind, and the way you were understanding the robes and the lame monastic relationship and the costs and the visa and everything else, it would be extremely difficult, bordering on impossible, to be able to attend this university as a monk. That being the case, it sounds like you had this existential decision in front of you that you either had to remain a monk in another country, unable to attend this university or to go ahead with your classes, but you would have to make the sacrifice to become lay in order to continue that education. Is that fair to say?
Ashin Sarana 19:36
Yes, something like that. But it was even more complicated because I didn't have the other country where I could stay and do what I wanted. So at that time, and I still do, I had classes. I have actually set up a school. I've set up a whole school. I've entirely invented the system. I've entirely invented the syllabus. I've entirely grad. Grown up, assistant teachers, senior students and so on. I've been teaching kids for four years online, sometimes also offline, but that's a different thing, and I have prepared this school with kids. It has six years. So this is a school which has six grades. Each grade has specific syllabus. I teach those kids meditation and five precepts, and about the Buddha and about Dhamma, about Abhidhamma, Jataka, Dhammapada, stories, kama, sangsara, nibbana, all kinds of various kinds of things of Dhamma. The syllabus is pretty exact and so on. Of course, I have other projects such as meditation retreats. So I have created a very special system of meditation retreat, meditation retreat 1.0 10 day and 49 day and then another level, meditation retreat, 2.0 10 day retreat and 49 day retreat. So I have created, you know, these large, large, like groups of people, where we have specific, very clearly set programs, Dhamma teaching programs. So I have quite a few students, quite a few assistants, quite a few projects, and I am responsible for them. So some people say, so, why didn't you just go to Sri Lanka and hide yourself somewhere in the forest? And I'm like, and why? Why would I do that? So my feeling was, so I'm now teaching here people Dhamma. People are learning Dhamma. We are having some projects. We are doing things. Well, why should I go hide myself somewhere in the forest? But the thing is that to continue teaching, I literally, I literally had no place where I could stay permanently. So in Vietnam, for example, it is prohibited by law to make a new monastery. We literally traveled around Vietnam, Ho Chi, Minh and Hanoi. We tried to find a place where I could have a monastery, and we were absolutely unsuccessful in the Czech Republic building a monastery is, I think I'd rather visit hell, maybe at least for a few minutes, than staying in the Czech Republic, because Czech Republic is very complicated, both in terms of People, in terms of ways how to do things, and so on and on and on. You know, the Czech culture is very non Buddhist, not really anti Buddhist. But Czech people are very, are very fast to criticize and to mock anyone who doesn't do exactly what they do. And of course, a Buddhist monk does exactly the different thing than the Czech people. So whenever I would like deal with Czech people in the Czech Republic, I would be criticized, mocked. There would be rumors and lies about me that I make up rules or whatever nonsense. So Czech Republic is really the most challenging, I'd say, the most challenging place ever to live. That's why, for a long time, there was no no really Czech monk in the Czech Republic. And even today, even though there is one Czech monk, I think there's none who would be teaching, because it's very, very hard to deal with the people who have totally different culture and zero understanding for for someone who lives differently and so definitely not Czech Republic, because that's a problem. It would cost a lot of money and immense amount of patience. Definitely not ready for that. While I was still studying at a university, Vietnam nice for three months, like heaven. Totally amazing. Vietnamese people. I'd say Vietnamese people are my I know these. This may sound a little racist, but I must admit that Vietnamese people are my favorite people in the world. So yes, Vietnam was like a heaven, but maximum for about three months. Otherwise, it's too much for them and the US, amazing, but in the US, you know, I was not allowed to stay in a monastery and and so on and on. So this additionally, additionally to the additionally to the fact that I was not able to bear any more criticism for following my for for following the veneer rules, and plus, additionally to the fact that I already have finished one year of the studies, which cost about 20, 30,000 of dollars, done, finished past. So I just need one and a half years of the studies. So if I do not continue studying, well, then that year is, you know, invalidated, invalid can start again or just gone. So I didn't want that. I didn't want to lose. That year, and I actually did take one year pause already waiting for a solution, how to study in person, in the US. So I did actually give one year to the people who wanted some more time before I disrobe. I informed quite a few people about my disrobing, and I met with them in video, and they're like, oh, you know, why didn't you tell me? And I'm like, but I did tell you. And they're like, No, but I didn't, but I did tell you. And I felt like as soon as at the moment when I told the people, Hey guys, I'm going to disrobe suddenly all the world turned into paradise. Everything is possible. We will give you a house. We will give you an assistant. The assistant will be for free. I actually plan to buy a house right away for you. If you don't disrobe, I will do this. I will do that. I will do something else. And I'm like, but, but you say this after I told you that I will disrobe. Why didn't you say this before I told you that I would disrobe? And so the problem was that even if I accept it, even if I accepted, okay, you know what? So you want to buy me a house. You want to you have here a friend who will be my assistant for six months, totally free and do whatever I want. But then I would feel like this was after a threat, you know? I would feel like, okay, so I actually threatened you that I will disrobe. And because I threatened you, then I got an opportunity to really stay as a monk and study in the USA, and I felt that's not the way how I do things. You know, I do not want people to give me things or to support me with things after I threaten them. That's just not my style. So as soon as I tell somebody, Hey, I will do this with me. I will do I will execute the freedom of my choice within, of course, always within the 5% of not killing, not stealing, not adultery, not telling lies, not drinking alcohol. I will execute freedom of my choice, which is legal and which is according to all Buddhist, you know, principles, then that means I will do it. I don't like threatening people, you know, like, what's that for? So that's that was a very interesting point where I told people, Hey guys, I'm going to this road because I don't have where to stay. And suddenly all of the world changed into paradise. Suddenly, there were so many opportunities and amazing, easy ways how to get a religious visa or another visa, and I got blamed that I didn't give certain people opportunity to help me, specifically from the people who I specifically gave opportunity to help me, well, on time. And so this was so interesting. It was like, so interesting how the world totally turns around. But again, you know, I'm not a person who threatens to get things. So that's why I had to reject it. And another thing that I found a little bit disappointing was that I did have an opportunity to to, you know, to get a house, yes, well, rented for $3,000 per month, with a copy of with an assistant, $3,000 per month, plus, of course, the tuition at the University, so it would cost $100,000 per one year of studying for me alone.
That was the plan, and I just didn't like that plan. But that plan, I rejected that plan, mainly because totally different reason. Okay, you know what 100,000 like people would be so happy to give me $100,000 to live somewhere, whatever? That's your decision. I'm not, I'm not angry with you for that. But there was another problem, and that was that I was prohibited to keep a student there. I literally had an American gentleman who wanted to ordain, under my guidance, as a novice, as a big coup, and I had to literally reject him. I had to literally reject him. He followed 10 day retreat, 30 day retreat, in my place in Florida, and I had a nice monastery, but of course, temporary. For a few months, he stayed there. He meditated there, he followed it, and he followed my, my instruction, amazing student, very intelligent. He wanted to become a monk for for the rest of his life, he searched for a place all over the US and the best, and the only place and teacher he found was me, and I was prohibited to keep him as my student in that place from which I would go to the university. And you know, for a monk who, who, you know, who's a senior monk. Who's knowledgeable. You know my knowledge, I have memorized over 600 I'm, of course, I boast about it everywhere. Anyway, I memorized over 600 pages of politics. I've meditated about five years, every day, about six hours. I have a lot, I believe I have a lot and lot of experience in studying, in experience I've, I believe I have achieved quite interesting things in meditation that many, many people would love to have. I have memorized and learned a lot and lot of Dhamma in various languages, in Sinhalese, Burmese, in English. I have, I have my BA level from Buddhist and Pali University. I got six ace, the best student in all of the school. And I was prohibited to keep a student, no, see, no. That just doesn't work for me. So for me, this was the, you know, this was the final, final, like tipping point, or whatever you call it, or the last drop where I saw, no, I'm not going to accept this offer, and I decided becoming a layperson will resolve all these things. I have become a layperson, and like it or not, but in my particular case, I do not regret my decision, but it's true that I wish that all monks stay as monks, because they have, of course, different situation. Other monks, other monks, they do not travel around the world teaching Dhamma usually. So if they don't very good, because traveling around the world and teaching is extremely difficult for someone who follows all the roles. So that's pretty hard. And plus, adding to it online Dhamma, you know, huge Dhamma program programs. And plus, of course, studying at a university that is ridiculous. And it was so ridiculous that I became a labor person. I believe that this is a very special case, my case, and that this is not a case of other monks, and therefore, I believe no monk should ever be inspired by me. I wish all monks stay monks for the rest of their lives. As monks, I just somehow got to a situation which was very difficult, and this is what happened. But I definitely wish all monks and nuns to stay monks and nuns for the rest of their lives. I believe it's very good for them. Meditation is amazing thing. Monkhood and nunhood are amazing opportunities to achieve nibbana. Lay life is amazing opportunity to study at a university, to enjoy essential pleasures, definitely not to achieve nibbana. So I definitely want to support monks and nuns if I get opportunity. You know, now I became liberson, so I'm more dependent rather than, rather than somebody who could donate and help. But I hope to stand on my feet very soon, and I want to support monks. I want to support nuns. I want to build monasteries. Let's see. Those are dreams. We shall see. I want to support monasteries. I want to support Dhamma I want to support Buddhist communities and monks and nuns. I meditate every day. I follow a precept during both Saturdays and of course, I continue in all of my Dhamma projects, in the kids school, in the in the meditation retreats and so on and on. So I continue teaching Dhamma. I continue instructing Dhamma. And I love Dhamma exactly the same way as I did ever before.
Host 33:41
So another aspect of this decision that you made that it strikes me now is the Myanmar part of it, and the coup that happened in Myanmar in 2021 it disrupt a lot of lives. It ended tragically lives as well, and crushed dreams and destroyed projects of many Burmese who don't have any privilege to fall back on of anywhere else they can go or anything else they can do but their homeland. At the same time, it also really dramatically changed the paths of non Burmese that were in the country for various things or projects, as well, such as yourself. And so I wonder if you can reflect on thinking about your path and imagining a thought experiment where the coup never happened. The transition was continuing in all of its imperfect ways, to gather steam and create some sense of freedom for foreigners to such as yourself, myself to remain there and Burmese, of course, to continue their life and their projects there. To what degree do you imagine if Burma had not had a coup and it continued on the path that it was on for the last several years before 2021 would you imagine that your life would be different? Now,
Ashin Sarana 34:59
great. I. I think that if the coup was not in Myanmar, I would be in Myanmar. Because how did I actually happen to get out of Myanmar? I got out of Myanmar for specific reason, for one specific reason, and that is that I got the information that I am listed in a secret list in the army, in the Myanmar military, some kind of register, and that is a specific list of people or monks who the military has to surveil. And I was on that list. They didn't tell me. Secret sources told me, and when I found out that I am on this list of secretly surveilled people, then I thought, You know what, like, until I'm on this list Secretly, I have time to leave as soon as there is a list where I am officially that means they publish it somewhere. Well, then I'm caught. There is no way how to how I can go, you know, to an airport and just go away, because when they see me at the airport, they will say, Hey, wait, you're on this list, right? So that means we need to catch you. But I but this list was not available to anyone except military was a secret list. So I thought, until I'm in the secret list, I still have a chance to escape. As soon as I'm on an official list, well, then I have no way to escape. So I was on this very special list of the of the military register for people who have to be secretly surveilled. And I thought, this is the time for me to run away, because at this time, I still may be able to escape. So that's how I escaped. So I left Myanmar before I would be caught, before I would be on a list, I would be officially recognized and through which I might be caught, and I might be anything. I might be forceful, disrobed, I might be given house arrest. I might be put into a prison, and, of course, I might be expelled with long, long term prohibition to ever enter Myanmar again. And I didn't want that, so I escaped Myanmar absolutely unscathed, except that I escaped Myanmar, and that was the point. If I did not escape Myanmar, if there was no coup, then I actually was fully registered, fully planned, fully agreed and accepted by Seattle U rewata in paotoya in somewhere, but it's somewhere in North Northeastern Myanmar, And there I was registered and accepted and agreed, and everything was ready that I just go there and I meditate there intensively, all the way until I become an arahant, all the way out until I become enlightened fully, or at least simply to meditate. Who knows? I don't know whether I can become an arahant this year. Sorry, this life, but I know I can try. Nobody can ever say that I cannot try, because I do know that I can try. And that's what I wanted. I wanted to go there and try. I heard some very nice things about Seira urevata, and I found those things very interesting, and I really wanted to go to that monastery. And I was registered. I filled the application, and they received the application, and they had placed for me, and everything was fine, except I had to run away from Myanmar, so if there was no coup, I would very probably, who knows, maybe I would die before that, but probably I would have gone to the monastery of Sayadaw, uravata. Possibly I would have meditated, and potentially I would be a monk. I would very probably be still a monk. Or maybe if some very good gamma would bring about some very good fruit, I might have even become an arahant. Maybe I would have some psychic powers. Maybe I would be able to fly in the air and disappear and appear. I'm actually not joking, even though it sounds like that. So, so the thing is that we can say, in a way, that coup cost it. If there was no coup in Myanmar, I would still be a monk. But, you know, well, then we could always blame it on our mom, you know, like, because this mom. Gave me birth. That's how I am. So I do not like to search causes this way, because that way we can always find somebody's fault. I think it's better to go back to ourselves. So it's me. I have made my own decision to disrobe. I am fully responsible for that, whatever were the reasons, and again, I told you, basically just a few of them, not all of them. So I want to maintain, you know, some kind of my privacy and things. But whatever were those reasons, I disrobed because I wanted and nobody else should ever be found guilty. Of course, I do blame lay people for blaming me for following rules and things like that, but that's to encourage them not to do it again, because laypeople in Buddhism have rule. Who gave that role the Buddha himself, the Buddha in Sigala. Sutta of Digha Nikaya has given laypeople five duties. Lay people love to forget their duties towards monks. They feel like monks have duties, and lay people have no it's wrong. Lay people have duties like it or not, and the five duties of laypeople are what number one think about monks with loving kindness. Number two, speak with monks with loving kindness. Number three, act towards monks with loving kindness. You know, lay people really love to forget these duties. Whether they forget them intentionally or not, I don't know, but these are three duties that lay people find extremely hard to follow. Then there are two more, that is to follow monks with whatever they need. And number five, if they promise something, they need to fulfill it. Well, the Buddha says, if they they should not, like close the door in front of the monk. But the commentary say, other way. Anyway, loving kindness from lay people towards monks is something very difficult when it's needed, when the monks follow roles, and lay people somehow don't want to accept that, but if lay people follow their duties, that's what the Buddha says. Indiganika Sigala Sutta, the Buddha says, If lay people follow these five duties, then monks will fulfill six duties towards the lay people like it or not. That's what the Buddha said. Again, something lay people really, really don't like it. It is dependent on the lay people's following of these five, sorry five duties that the monks fulfill their six duties towards the lay people. What is it that the monks will teach the lay people Dhamma, and that the monks will have loving kindness towards the lay people, the duties of teaching Dhamma the Buddha actually gives them as five, not as one. So monks should encourage lay people to do good things, discourage lay people from doing bad things. Teach lay people Dhamma that they never heard. The true Dhamma. Teach laypeople Dhamma that lay people already heard, you know, to remember, understand better. And number five, show them the path to heaven. Ideally, of course, they show them path to nibbana. And if they don't make it to nibbana, at least they make it to heaven. So these are five ways how monks teach lay people Dhamma plus, monks should pervade lay people by loving kindness. So those are the six duties of monks, which monks fulfill to us lay people, if lay people fulfill the five duties to us monks, but we can say that means me and many, many monks, for example, Miao UCLA, who interestingly talked to me right Before my disrobing and tried to discourage me from disturbing. But then he actually agreed it's pretty hard to follow all roles and also study in the USA. That was very interesting.
So including Yao ucro, a very famous monk in Myanmar, we have agreed that it's very, very hard for lay people to actually deal with monks with loving kindness if the monks follow all of the rules, but it's essential. So that's why I like to say that I basically disrobed because laypeople dealt with me in a wrong way, in a wrongful way, in an unfair way, not because it was not my decision. No, it was 100% my decision, and I'm fully responsible for my decision to disrobe. But I like to say this way to encourage lay people to change their way, to change their ways, and start to deal with monks who follow rules with loving kindness. So. Stop criticizing them for following rules, because the monks follow rules their exits the Buddha teaching vinayana, masasana, sayagyi u ba Khin lifespan of the Buddha's dispensation is the Vinaya is following all of the rules. So rather than say, Oh, this monk is so difficult to to take care of, oh, this monk needs a copy. All this monk doesn't touch money. All this monk cannot stay in an apartment. All this monk always needs to have somebody to offer him food. Don't do that. You know. Don't do that. You cause the monks to run away from your place. Either run away somewhere else, or if they have no place, then to disrobe, don't do that. So monks always need to be dealt with loving kindness. So how do you say it? If you cannot help, you say, Venerable sir, I would love to support you, but at this moment, it's not possible for me. Let me know if there is another way how I can support you, rather than saying, You know what, you're so difficult to take care of. Oh, you know you just think about yourself. Oh, you know you are so demanding. No, you should not say that to a monk. And the monk is not happy following all rules. The solution, again, is either that the monk breaks the rules, which is very common in the US. You rarely find monks who follow all the roles because they don't want to hear people criticizing criticizing them for following roles, or the monks just run away. In mahavihara, in Myanmar, there's a specific instruction that, hey guys, don't go abroad because you won't be able to follow the rules. So the mahavihara monks. You know, mahavihara is one of the schools of monks in Myanmar who follow the rules the most strictly. And guess what? They were my principal teachers, I followed the rules according to their interpretation. But I thought, You know what? Mahavihara venerable monks? I will actually show you that it's possible to follow our rules and be abroad. So I went abroad, and I found out that it's actually not possible. So I failed. Sorry. Anyway, the point here is that when lay people start to blame monks for following roles, lay people will start losing monks. So that's not really the good way to go. Instead, be patient, try to understand whatever are the monks roles, and just get together and prepare the environment where the monks can stay. Now for me, as a layperson, of course, I'm just starting up, so I cannot do much, but I really hope it's my big dream to create a monastery, be it in the US or Czech Republic or France or whatever. You know, I have many dreams. I would like to create a monastery where monks in the West can really come follow rules and where nobody will criticize them. Instead, they will be praised and fully supported for following just like they are in Myanmar. So far, I'm not aware of a place like this. You could say, What about Amaravati in UK? No, no, the monks there do not follow 91,805,036,000 rules. They don't. I'm sorry about that. So it's very hard to find a place where the monks follow all of the roles. There are places like that, but monks are not allowed to stay there. Some places, you need to write a contract, and the contract is limited, like for me, for Florida, I had to write a contract, you know. So I had to fulfill certain conditions, and they had to fulfill some conditions. We had some agreement, and I had to sign it, and it was for a few months, and I had to be there. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a monastery where any monk can come, any monk who follows all the roles, doesn't touch money, okay, doesn't need afternoon, doesn't cook for any care, doesn't store a meal, and so on and on.
Host 48:56
So I'd like to take a moment to ask you the personal dimension of all of this, because you're you're speaking in terms of these wider issues of monastic lay relations, of decisions, logistical decisions, involving transnational situations and visa and money away from Myanmar and the monastic rules and such. But I'd like to go down into the personal impact and effect that you have been facing and experiencing as a result of this. You were a monk for 12 years. You were a novice before that. And for those who have not worn the robes before, and even for those listening who may not know about monastic environments, there are a lot of rules you have to follow which govern every aspect of your life and make really it's a, it's a, it's a different kind of life that you're living as a monk in terms of the protocol what you can and can't do. It's very specified in every aspect of one's. Day from morning till night and to then leave this aside and become lay. This is a dramatic decision.
Ashin Sarana 50:08
Well, disrobing after 16 years in ropes is quite an interesting thing. There are times when I would like think about, oh, I'm going to disrobe. And like all of the body would like, shake. There were times when I was like, Really, feeling like, Am I really going to do this? No, that's not possible. How am I going to disrupt that's not possible. This cannot happen. You know, for 16 years, if there's something that could happen for 16 years and it did not happen, then it's a little hard to believe that it will happen after 16 years. Why not like after 15 years? Why not after 18 years? And so but the thing is that, you know, it was a dead end. I had nowhere to go. I literally had nowhere to go. I had no monastery to go. I wanted to go to LA for one week, and we were like calling to different monasteries, like, Can Ashin sadana Stay here for seven days? No, cannot, can I Ashin sadana stay in that monster? No, cannot. Ken, I should say Namaste in that monastery. No, cannot. And I'm like, what? I was a Buddhist monk, and I was and there are, like, four or five monasteries, or whatever we called I didn't I, it was not even me calling them, you know, like saying, Hey guys, I want to come to your master like what we don't like you. Go away. No, no, not like that. Somebody who was well known or who was well familiar with these monasteries, a friend. Even there, there is a monastery in LA where the chief monk is actually my friend. I stayed in his master in Myanmar for about, I don't know, like two weeks. And we're good friends. Everything was fine. And support. And his supporters called him, and they're like, can I Shin sadana, stay here one week? And no, he cannot. What? Why? What did I do wrong? Oh, I did. Oh, I know what. I was a monk. That's what I did wrong. Okay, whatever. So this was like a dead end. I had literally nowhere to go. I had nowhere to stay. Of course, I could say people, you know what? I'm going to disrobe because I don't have a place to stay. No, of course, that changes the world into a paradise, and suddenly I can stay everywhere I want. But that's not what I meant when I said that I'm going to disrobe. I didn't mean to find a place to stay for me as a monk by saying that I'm going to disrobe again, I I don't live that way. I don't threaten people to get things so so yes, people, of course, can say but there were so many people now, usuro has suddenly appeared, and he says, you know, says, You know what, I have this monastery in Fresno. You can come and it's all yours. And I'm like, well, that's beautiful, but I've already decided to disrobe. Why didn't you tell this to me before that suddenly so many people appeared. You know, I could have like, 10 monasteries or 20 monasteries. It was amazing. It was amazing. But no, that's not the way how I do it. So I decided to disrobe because I like without this fact that I was going to deserve I had no place to stay again. There will be many people saying, but we told you, you have this place to say that, yes, after I told you that I will deserve not before that, not before that. So because there was this dead end, I had no choice, or in my mind, of course, and I didn't want to be expelled, to go to a forest somewhere in Sri Lanka and start to meditate, because I felt like, Hey, wait, I'm a senior monk. I know scriptures. I know meditation. I have Tamil programs. Why should I be sent to meditate in a forest if I don't want to, there is no role that I need to go to forest right now. So why should I do that? So I felt like nobody really understood me. Anyway, I had no place to go again before saying saying that I will disrupt and because I had no place to go, there was not really so much of emotional worry or stress or depression or whatever, because I really had no choice. There was only one choice, and that was to disrobe because I had no place to go. And after disrobing, after this roping, well, I see that I can. Do things that I could not do as a monk. Of course, I cannot do one thing, and that is, yeah, that is, what can I do as a monk? I'm not actually sure about that, but as a layperson, I can do things that I could not do as a monk. You know, as a layperson, I can, for example, stay in an apartment. I can stay in a tiny, little room, rent it for a few not for a few dollars, but for pretty good price. And I can go to a university. I can study whatever I want. Nobody will blame me and say, Oh, after you finish this study, you will be like a layperson. There was one of the that was another reason why I actually decided to be a layperson, that certain sort of lay people suggested that if I study at a university with the degree, I will be like a layperson, like the the ultimate insult that I ever received so and I specifically selected, you know, a degree for university, after I was urged by lay people to select a degree for university because I did not have a plan to move from ba to ma. I'm studying Ma. So I was specifically urged by several lay people to continue my studies and to get Ma. It was not my idea. I was so humble and so kind and so listening that I followed their advice. After one year of paying about 20, $30,000 from donors support for my studies, then suddenly some people appear and say, Oh, if you study this degree, you will be like a layperson, like what and I feel like this is just not the way it is now, as a layperson, I can study my studies. Nobody ever tells you, tells me. Or if you do these studies and get this degree, you will be like a layperson. Well, because I'm already a layperson, she's just so ridiculously amazing. As a monk, yes, they would insult me. They would tell me bad things, and I just didn't want to listen to them. You know you could say, but as a lay person, you're also insulted, and you also hear bad things, yes, but I do not have it. In addition to the load of following over 90 billion rules, I follow five and following five rules and be insulted is much nicer than following over 90 billion rules and be insulted. So I enjoy following five precepts and being solid. It's amazing. It's so cool. So I actually am immensely happy as a lepers because I can do just whatever I want. You know, actually, today I bought a skateboard. I am happy. I am I'm happy with my choice. I continue teaching Dhamma. Today. I had a meeting with my Burmese students. We meditated together nicely 45 minutes, in addition to my personal 30 minutes of meditation, we nicely discussed Dhamma. See, I'm now discussing with you some a little bit of tama, not, not that much of happy tama, but we do, and I'm continuing all my projects. I did not remove any of my Tama projects at all. Yes, many laypeople got angry with me, and they caused me horrible, horrible troubles and problems. But that's a minority. There are many, many people who are very kind to me, who literally send me hundreds of dollars of support for me, so that I survive as a layperson. And I'm happy. You know, I have food to eat, I have clothes to dress. I have a roof above my head, and I'm fulfilling my dreams. So emotionally, personally, personally, I am happy. I'm actually happier than than I would ever imagine that I will be after deserving
Host 58:50
there's a documentary that always stuck with me called act naturally. And the documentary is about a British man who becomes a monk in Thailand when he's quite young, 1718, years old, and similar to your story, but for very different reasons. When he's 3233 he decides to disrobe to experience lay life again. And the documentary follows his decision to leave the robes, and then follows his life in the lay world and the struggles, both the joys and the struggles that he has in the lay world. And there are several things from that that I'm remembering now as I talk to you. One is that he references how once he becomes lay making decisions becomes very, very hard for him, and small decisions, big decisions, preferences, anything from what time he'd like to wake up, to what he'd like to eat, to when to get a haircut and what haircut to get to, what to buy and what kinds of things he likes, and he finds that his experience in being a monk was one of the simplicities that he came to really like was that he didn't have to make any choices, and because he had not that you don't have to make any choices as a monk. Of course, there are choices you have to make, but so many of your choices are removed by the nature of the video. The monastic discipline, that there are not many choices left that you have to make, and with those choices removed, that allows you to be able to to concentrate on the monastic vocation on hand, because your mind isn't full of all these things you have to decide. And so a big part of his experience and transitioning back to Lei is his challenge in figuring out how to make choices, big choices of life, directions and small choices of just simply, what to do in the during the day. That for so many years, about the same he was a monk, actually, for about the same amount of time as you, as I recall, maybe give or take, a few years that going back into having to be responsible for an independent for his own life, because a monk is also part of a reciprocal nature of a lay monastic relationship of giving and taking in both ways, whereas with being laid that you you are responsible for many of your more material decisions, and you have more Things that you can do, that you just simply couldn't do as a monk, and things that you have to do. And so as you step in to lay clothes after so long as a monk, are these, this opportunity and also this burden of making decisions, to what degree are you finding it a pleasure and something that you're, as you said, Oh, now I can buy a skateboard. Now I can use a skateboard. Now I can, I can do, I get to do these other things. You referenced before that being a lay person was that in that status, you were able to enjoy sensual pleasures. Skateboarding is a sensual pleasure that you're not able to do as a monk. And so what are the kinds of sensual pleasures that you're now allowing yourself to enjoy, and that you are, in fact, enjoying that you couldn't before? And then what are the parts of decision making that is confusing or burdensome or messy? Because often in the monastic world, we hear about lay life as being messy. There's a lot of things there that you have to wade through and decide and figure out, and the that there's the simplicity in being a monk that you don't have to So looking at that transition, which about it is becoming messy and burdensome, and which about it is becoming kind of kind of pleasant and exciting to get to try new things that you haven't done for so long.
Ashin Sarana 1:02:23
Well, somehow, somehow, I actually enjoy, you know, washing dishes. I enjoy ironing clothes. I enjoy, you know, whatever are the you call it, menial tasks, or whatever you call it. I actually like these things, you know, somehow I like, I like cooking so much, you know, as a monk, of course, I didn't cook at all. But somehow these, these things that you know, be it cleaning, tidying up things in, ironing, clothes, cooking, you know, going out shopping and resolving problems. I actually like it. Somehow, I don't know why I actually like it. I enjoy it. You know, I would love to be a house husband. Now, being a house husband somehow just seems to me, I don't know why. Maybe, you know, it's a lot about the character. Before I became a monk. I actually had a girlfriend. That was when I was, like 1919, years old, and we didn't really have a problem, you know, like, we love to cook together. We love to make cakes together. We love to go shopping together. Sometimes I would do it myself. She was she actually mostly did cooking because I was taking care of the money. I actually made a lot and lot of money. But of course, for that, I had to be out. So yeah, I actually like these household chores. I enjoy them a lot. Believe it or not, I like hard work. I love it. As a monk, I couldn't do that. I actually love doing hard work. I love carrying heavy things. I love, you know, I'm not that skillful, you know. I kind of like if something gets broken, I usually have no idea what to do with that. But if there's, like, a new gadget or something, I really like to assemble it and read the guides and things like this. I really like when, when my place is tidy. That's something I love. And so maybe that's that's what like propels me. And I live in a small community of people who care for me and who are very patient. So of course, there are small things like, Oh, you need to wipe the water here, or you need to lock the door there, or you need to whatever else. So, yeah, so these are tiny, small roles. You know, like monks have over 91 billion small roles. So here, like 10 or 20 small roles is really nothing in comparison to. What I followed. Monks have a lot of roles. Monks need to do certain things with robes, certain things with food and so on and on. So actually, monks also have a lot of things that they have to learn and follow. These are tiny, small things, and they're slightly variable based on the environment and people who are around. So for me, these small roles in the place where I am are just so, so much funny, because there's very little, you know, it's about like 1020 it's not like 100,000 so, and I do not have to, like, read whole books, you know, before I actually break them all 10 times or 20 times. So I actually totally enjoy and I do not have that kind of feeling that I would have problems with decision again. Of course, I have a community around me of people who are very patient, who are very kind, who tell me, you need to do this. You do that. They help me dress up my clothes. They help me eat things and so on. Before you know, I start to understand how to actually do it as a lay person. They go with me shopping. They they tell me, you need to do this, you need to do that. And I'm happy, you know, I'm very happy. They tell me what to do. They tell me the chores and so on. But they care for me, you know? They cook for me. They prepare things for me. They choose things for me. And they're patient. I still do not need to use any money. I didn't have to use money a single time. And I think that's, that's one of these, you know, special, special advantages that I have upon my disrobing, that I had this community of people who care for me, who do not push me, that I immediately have to start using keys. Yes, monks actually use keys. But I, when I was a monk, actually did not use keys, by the way, so and then there was no problem really with that. So I'm not used to use keys. I'm not used to use phone. I'm not used to use money, these three big things, many monks actually use money, phone and keys, by the way, money are not private, but phone and keys, in a way could I as a monk for many, many years, for 12 years, I did not use phone keys and money. And so getting used to these three things, which are pretty big, takes me time. I have got a phone. I admit, yes, I have a phone, but I don't call anyone. Yeah, actually, today, I tried to call somebody, but I called through Vibranium. So I do not call like I do not call people, and I do not receive calls, because it's just too new to me. I do not get any keys yet I was offered, but no please, and absolutely not money, no, please, not. So I will need, you know, to gradually transition to that. And I have this amazing advantage, thanks to these people who care for me. I'm very, very thankful to them, because, again, they let me transition slowly. I may need one month. I may need two months. Moreover, I don't know how to drive a car. So wherever I go, somebody's driving the person who's taking care of me. So you see, I'm very, very well cared for. I don't live like a monk, absolutely not. I eat dinner. I enjoy dinner a lot. You know, I listen to music, I follow Five Precepts nicely. I follow uposata. I follow eight precepts during uposa Today, about two days ago, I did, and this is totally fine. But apart from that, I follow five precepts. But it's true that I don't use money, but I do, you know, go with them outside, and they're very kind, and they do whatever I need. And as the time goes, I will gradually transition, and I will start his money, start his bank account card, start his phone, start use keys. Yeah, I need some time, but everybody understands that, and I'm accepted with utmost love and care. So I think it's this very special, very special advantage that I'm having, as you know, as a layperson who was a monk after for a long time as a layperson, that I can transition so slowly so I absolutely do not feel any of these problems with decision Making or like this, because, again, that support is amazing, and I get utmost love and appreciation
Host 1:09:25
for simplicity term to someone who doesn't know much about Buddhism, I often say there's three real definitions that will distinguish you between the lay experience, and one of those is is avoiding all intoxicants that this is something that a monk should absolutely not do, that a layperson, who may not follow the precepts entirely or all the time, can indulge in different intoxicants, and it's very if you're going to be a monk, then this question of intoxication needs to be totally off the table the second. One we can put into a category of like the material world and the sensual pleasures, kind of put those together. This you've already touched upon. This one you've talked about this extensively. This can involve anything from possessions to money to dinner at night, to which monks obviously can't have, to vocational careers, music, skateboarding, movies, going out at night, et cetera, et cetera. So you've touched upon this a lot, and this distinction between the protocols you followed when you were a monk and now as you're a layperson, how you're enjoying you're enjoying cooking, you're enjoying hard work, you're enjoying skateboarding, you're enjoying dinner, and you're slowly getting used to the process of keys and money and some other things. The third area is this, and I should mention before we go to the third area, I think also staying on this example of what does it mean to be a monk in Burma? I think that it does mean being able to and accepting the relinquishing of a lot of these material and sensual pleasures, not entirely you can there are things. There are many things you can enjoy as a monk, and there are even material kinds of goods or advantages that you can have. But for the most part, there's this wider material and sensual world, which part of being a monastic means that you are letting go of and renouncing to some degree, and you've touched upon this. The third area is this question of romance, partnership, sexuality, et cetera. This is to be monk in Burma. This. This is a huge area. And I would say, really, to be a monk almost anywhere in the world of any there are monks that exist that have some kind of partnerships. But when I just think about the concept of a monastic in the world, giving up, letting go of this partnership seems to be really a definition of what it means to go on a spiritual and religious journey that you are apart from the world. Of course, one can be in a committed relationship and partnership and still have very much a very strong spiritual and religious life. But when you're looking at the definition of a monastic, it's even the word alone, even even the connotation of that word. You're stepping outside of the bounds of a partnership with someone else and going on a singular spiritual mission of renunciation. And if you're not renouncing this, what are you renouncing, really? So my question is, looking at these three areas you've already addressed, the transformation between the material the sensual, part of going from monastic to lei this other area is one of intoxication, and I don't think this is really much of an area to spend all that much time on. I don't expect that as a layperson, following five precepts, there's any degree of any kind of intoxication that you're going to be curious or interested in exploring now that you've changed. But the third area is perhaps the one that is, as far as you're comfortable discussing and sharing is definitely a key transition between monastic to lay life, and this is the prospect of a romantic partnership with another individual. And so in what ways is your thinking transformed as to what is possible after going so long being so committed to the celibate monastic lifestyle, now that you've made this lay transition to what degree are you interested or contemplating or considering this aspect of being in a romantic partnership with someone temporarily or permanently, or exploring the dating life in some form.
Ashin Sarana 1:13:42
That's a very cool question. Now, concentrate, there is a problem. There's a problem answering that question. Now, suppose that I do not have a partner. Now, if I do not have a partner, well, then everybody will be scared. What if? No, he
Ashin Sarana 1:14:05
what if I have a partner? Then people will say, Oh, you surely had a partner already before Do you disrobe? You surely disrobed because of that partner. So this question on, what is my now situation with a partner, or what is mine now attitude towards a partner? Now, for somebody who has five precepts, there is freedom. You know, I can say, No, I don't want to have any partner, but that can last one minute, and after that one minute, it can change. So me saying I don't want to have a partner, or I want to have a partner has zero value in my understanding. Of course, that's my logic. But if anybody says, No, I never want to have my a partner. And there are many people who say, Oh, never in my life, I want to have a partner. And right the next moment is, oh no, I want to get married with this one. So saying that you. Never want to have a partner as a layperson who files Five Precepts is totally zero value for me, and therefore, if I say it well, then that's totally zero value from me as well. So I'm not answering that because that's totally useless information. More important is, Do I have a partner now or not? And as I have explained, answering that question is dangerous from both sides. Again, if I have a partner, people will say, of course, you had that partner before you deserve, and you actually deserve because of this partner, and you told us a lie throughout the time. Now, if I do not have a partner, then people will say, Well, you don't have a partner. Well, then that means you're searching for one, and what if it's me? What if you want me? And people are then scared. I literally this. This is not answer to the question. And be careful, the answer to the question would be very surprising for you everybody. But there was a lady who said, who said, You know what? When you were a monk, I was able to tell my husband that you're a monk, so he doesn't need to worry. But now, after you will deserve that I was still a monk, after you will deserve I don't know what will whatever I tell my husband, it's like, totally unrelated, like, what why this lady is telling this to me? So some ladies are really insane to that level, and some husbands of those ladies, I'm talking about husbands, not boyfriends, husbands, ladies who have husbands, who have kids, like two, three kids, they were afraid that, if I disrobed, may maybe they will have a problem with their husband, that their husband will be jealous, and their husband was already jealous when, but we didn't Have anything, you know, we never talked about, like, talk together privately, or something. No, not at all. There's, like, no way to have any relationship. Totally ridiculous. So some people are insane to that level, believe it or not, if what I said doesn't make sense to you, you understood it because it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to me. So yes, it is very important that nobody knows whether I have a power partner or whether I do not have a partner. Is extremely important. And I would like to suggest that if it ever happens, if that horrible disaster happens to anyone that they deserve, please do not tell anyone whether you already have a partner or not, because this is a horrible information. Nobody should ever know. This is my private life, whether I have a partner or not, and it's absolutely no business of anyone. And it's not my business whether you, Joah or someone else has a partner or not? Of course, I can ask you, but you can decide not to answer. It's your private life, and you have full freedom over it. See, I am now a lay person. I have now my privacy, and I'm moreover European, and Europeans have much, much better privacy than anyone else in the world. So I'm European, I have the best privacy rights in the world, so nobody can ever blame me for not answering certain private answer action questions, because it's my privacy, and moreover, I'm European, so I have the full right to keep my private information for myself, but it's a lot of fun. You know, because many people who think that I have a partner, they haven't, they have me for a liar or they want to cause them some troubles. Many people who think that I do not have a partner, that I literally received an email, believe it or not, I literally received an email from a Bernie slaty who says, Dear Jansen. That's how I want people to call me anyway, dear Jansen. You know what? If you want to marry me within three months, please answer to me, because I would like to marry literally, like that. Literally, I received an email from a lady who was who was wondering if I would like to marry her within three months. She's ready. I didn't answer to her in anything. I just deleted the email in scam. But see, this is really insane. This is really insane for somebody, and I love to boast that I'm popular. Yes, I'm boasting that I'm popular. Enjoy that. So I am popular person, and for me as a popular person this, this is amazing how I'm meeting these different people and my disrobing, this is very much off topic, but let me please mention that I am. Am discovering the real nature of people who I know. Previously, it felt like all these like people who support me, they have the same nature. That means they're kind and wise. But at the moment, I started to disrobe, and after my disrobing, suddenly people have changed into two swords, people who are kind and wise and people who are not kind and not wise, these people who are not kind and not wise, of course, that's in my eyes. You can call them whatever you want, but these people who are not kind and not wise, they're the people who, upon my disrobing, they said, Oh, you're disrobing. So that means that I never want to talk with you anymore. As if, by disrobing, I became an evil person, or as if by disrobing, I suddenly forgot all of dharma and stopped meditating forever, or stopped having any more experience in my meditation. Like what happened? Some people are pretty, pretty mean and evil towards me, just and only for disrobing. Some people are totally opposite. They're like, Oh, you're disrobing, but you know what? You're still better than us because you have 16 years of manhood behind yourself, not us. There's there was like a layperson, a gentleman. He said, You know what I could because I wrote, actually a statement about my disrobing. And he's like, You know what I can see you're so weak that you're disrobing. You are really so weak. I hope that one day you will become a monk again, and you will follow the basana meditation according to the sudhimaka. And I'm like, but you're a lay person.
1:21:43
Why are you saying that
Ashin Sarana 1:21:45
ridiculous? Like this layperson tells me that I'm weak, that I became a lay person. What so many laypeople? Not many. Actually, it's a minority. But you know, in my mind, it feels like many so minority, a few people are like that. They are shocked, and by being shocked, they're mad, they're insane. Their brain somehow stops to work. You know, temporarily they say horrible, insane or ridiculous things, and they never said them before, somehow my disrobing has revealed them. And then there are people who are somehow kinder and nicer and more understanding and more supportive than they ever were before. And I'm really surprised how my disrobing has suddenly, like revealed the true colors of so many people. It's amazing. It's really amazing. And I'm literally enjoying this new revelation of how people's nature works, how people are diverse, how it's very hard to really understand who is my friend? Before I do something such as that, I make a freedom choice that I decide about what I want to do in my life. Isn't that amazing? You decide what you want to do in your life, and somehow the world changed, like, the people somehow changed their attitudes to towards you, like, what's this? It's my freedom to be a layperson or monk, right? Like, I can decide. The Buddha never prohibited monks from disrobing. There is no bad deed by disrobing. The Buddha never said, Oh, if you monks disrobe, you will be born in hell or something. No, there's nothing like that. Zero. You know, people follow eight precepts on oposa today, and then the next day they follow five precepts. There is no bad deed for moving from eight precepts to five precepts. And there is never a bad deed for disrobing. Believe it or not, of course, you don't believe it anyway, but there is no bad deed from diserving There's actually good deed for being monk, for that period of being a monk. So this is really, really amazing, how people are showing me their true colors. But thank you for that, for that answer. Now you see how certain private information is pretty potentially dangerous for someone like me, and I cannot tell at this moment, but there will be time, who knows, maybe after several months and so on, when you will see me, maybe with a wedding ring or something else, and we'll have a lot of fun.
Host 1:24:38
So there's a couple things I hear in your answer, one of those. And this is something I think that I've heard in the last 90 minutes, speaking, is just the feeling a bit emotionally raw right now, and I think that that's, that's fair, that's, it's obviously fair, however one feels, but especially having gone through such a dramatic transformation as you have. Of and having to hear the feedback of so many different people publicly and privately that's been given to you, that can be challenging as well. And so I think that I as I'm hearing you, just giving you that space to go through, to to process some of these raw emotions as they're coming from these interactions, from the transformation you've went through, from the decision before, the transformation as you're continuing to sort out what this means and who you are and where you're going, and you're, you're in the middle of that, you're you're not over that process, you're in the middle of that process. And so, of course, there's going to be raw emotions in the middle of a process like that. The other thing that I'm hearing is that is this distinction between public and private. And this is very interesting, because you, until very recently, you were a very public figure by choice, really. You by choice of being a Dhamma teacher and being a foreigner in Myanmar for many years, and then after the coup, not able to be a foreigner in Myanmar, but still being a foreigner, a foreign monk in the Myanmar space, very much so. And this was something that you cultivated, not wanting, not as a means of wanting to be famous or have ego, but by means of wanting to make an impact and guide and to to support with your work and with your programs and such, and so this is you're making a very sudden and to in many people that are following you from a distance, very shocking and unpredictable move to suddenly go from being very public and having a very public presence to to claiming privacy and wanting to to as a layperson, to claim the rights of a private life and private decisions, which everyone is entitled to. But this is also a very sudden transformation for you and for for those that have been watching you, to want to go from this public to private experience, and private experience is what everyone has a right to. However it is, it's, it's, this is not the life you've been leading to this point. And so it does take a moment for people to adjust and understand that. And again, we're in the middle of this process and to and I think this also speaks to how it's very difficult to have a foot in both worlds. It's very difficult to to have a whole series of public showings, and then in the midst of that, to then claim a private, undisclosed space that where this has all changed suddenly. This is different, I think, from having a public persona that also has private has private parts of that public persona that are are off limits. This is really a transformation of going from very public facing in every sense of the word to wanting to enjoy your privacy, as every layperson has a right to do. And so I think this is also something that's in process right now, in process for you and figuring out, and also in process for those who have followed you that are reacting to to to something that was in the public sphere that now is in their eyes, has suddenly been shifted to being in the private sphere. I think this being said, I mean these two kind of transitions taking place and taking place in maybe in rough or raw ways, which is normal for something that's something this dramatic that's happening in the process, and these things do get sorted out. But I think that this is also looking at yourself, you're young, you have a lot of years in front of you. You have a lot of things that you can build and things that you can do when you could put your energies and your ambitions and your aspirations into, whether those are Dhamma projects or worldly projects, or a life that you wish to lead, or something that brings happiness and fulfillment, whether it's the happiness and fulfillment of sensual pleasures and relationships and livelihood and being In the world, or whether it's the the happiness and fulfillment of aiming towards Nibbana and the ultimate experience of of of happiness that moves beyond the sense pleasures and craving and aversion. So you you have a right. Well, it doesn't matter if you're young or not. You can be whatever age. You have a right to one has a right to determine what is going to lead to their own happiness and fulfillment in this world, and that's what you're doing. And this is a although this, this can be a sudden shift, and circumstances could have also played a role in that sudden shift. You absolutely have a right to make those decisions and to to to to set the parameters and the boundaries of what you'd like. And I think it's, it's fair game for me to ask a question about where this moves into looking at your dating life. And I think it's a fair answer for you to say, hey, I have boundaries now, and I didn't have those boundaries before, but now these are my boundaries, and this is what I feel comfortable with, and this is what I don't it's a very fair answer. Sorry, it's very it's something that that I have to respect and everyone else has to respect, but it is a shift, and it is a shift that you're going through, and a shift that those around you are going through as you're determining kind of who you are and who you are in this new space. I mean, there's something exciting about about getting to be another person and do other things that you weren't able to do, as with taking on the robes, taking off the robes gives these different ways to be and to act in the world, and can also be an act of courage to really know who you are and what you want to be and and where you aspire to. And so I also wonder on your side, to what degree you feel that you are also trying to to understand who it is you are and what you want to be now in the world with this adjustment that's taking place or, or if you feel you have a pretty good sense of of what it is, what direction you would like to go in, and and that you're pursuing that direction. Now
Ashin Sarana 1:31:00
I see, I feel that I'm a free man and that I have a freedom to do everything that's within the five precepts, and I have big ambitions. Before I became a monk, I was a very successful businessman. I made quite a lot of money. It's not so much money in the US, but it was a huge money in the Czech Republic about those 20 years ago. So I'm definitely ambitious, and I want to start making money, a lot and lot of money. We'll see several plans. But of course, I'm open to learn. I know that making money is done only through learning, so I want to learn, and I know how to do that. So my plan is to make a lot of money. My plan is to make a family, to have several beautiful kids, or whatever kids are they. I'm happy for any kids we are having, we will have, or whoever will be with me and I definitely want to have a nice house, and I would like to live in France. I've learned French pretty nicely. I would like to start teaching dumb mind French. That's why I started to learn French. But considering living in France, we'll see whether that's whether that's just a dream, or whether that will be a reality. I have a big dream that I will make a lot of money, enough money to build a monastery. And I want to build a monastery, invite their Burmese monks, support the monks by food, buy ropes, by place to stay, but by everything they need, even by education. And I want to make sure that they have a nice place in Europe or in the US. Let's see where I will be and or in Canada. Many people believe I'm in Canada, so maybe in Canada, whoever, wherever I am, it's fine. The point is that. The point is that I would definitely like to continue supporting Dhamma, and I see that as a layperson, I can do it much easier as a layperson. It makes much more sense to collect money to build a monastery. It makes much more sense to do projects where we have to pay employees and so on. I did it as a monk according to all roles. Some people don't know the roles, so they were ready to blame me, but again, that's one of the reasons why I became a layperson, because I was not able to withstand a blame for me following rules. Now people can blame me, but it's no more in addition to me following over 90 billion rules, because I follow just five. So my plan is to make a lot of money to build monastery or monasteries to get their Buddhist monks and to spread Dhamma in the west, to help them spread Dhamma in the West. In the meantime, I have my programs, my projects, where I teach meditation, I teach Dhamma to kids, to adults, in Burmese and English in Czech. I'm learning Vietnamese slowly, yes, but I am, I hope to start teaching Dharma also in Vietnamese and French. Please wish me that I am successful. I very much appreciate when people wish me to be successful, because that actually helps me. And of course, it doesn't help me when people say you will not be successful. Or if you do this, you will be like that. So that was, again, one of the reasons why I became a layperson, anyway. So that's what I'm doing. I'm a free person. I'm going to enjoy the freedom of a free person, and I want to continue in Dhamma. I meditate every day, and I enjoy meditation. I enjoy studying Dhamma I'm very devout Buddhist, and I want to support monks, if any monks or nuns here this recording, I would like to tell you my have an email address, Jansen stovisek, j, A, N, S, E. N, S, T, O, V, I, C, E, k@gmail.com, and you can write their email to me. You can say, Dear Jansen, you know, I need to make this trip and I need a flight ticket. Or, you know what Jensen, I have a problem. I don't have a meal. Or, you know what Jensen, I'm here in this place. I don't have a place to stay. Let me know I want to support you. I don't say I will support you, but because I don't know you know there are things I cannot do, but if you need any support, Venerable sir, Venerable none, please let me know there is a high chance that either I can support you, or that I know hundreds and hundreds of people who would be most enthusiastic to support you in the area where you are or with the thing that you need. So please let me know. Now, as a layperson, I have this right to tell you that I wish that you tell me, and I do. So please tell me if you need anything, and you have now, therefore, according to the strictest veneer roles, full freedom to tell me, so please tell me I want to support again. Doesn't mean that I'm a God who can do anything that you ever wish. But of course, I want to support you up to my abilities or through the connections, of which I have plenty. So this is something that I definitely want. I want to support monks. I want to make monks happy in their monks life. I want to support everybody in their education. I want to support people in health, long life, in success, in happiness, in fulfilling their wishes, in their freedom of choice. So this is something I want to do. I have no plans to become a monk again, absolutely zero. I do have plans to follow meditation retreats. I do have plans to progress in my dharma understanding, in Vipassana and so on. But, of course, I'm a layperson, and at this moment I don't have a job, but that's that will come. I am actually enrolled at a university, believe it or not, and I'm going to start my studies next week, on Monday, if you think you know I'm not well, that means you know nothing about me. So stop thinking that. But truth is that I continue my studies in counseling according to my plan, and I hope to get a job after I get my beautiful degree. So even before that, I may be able to get a job. We'll see situation is not that easy. So these are my plans. I want to be a lay person. I want to be a devout Buddhist. I want to support everybody in their health, happiness in my as well, all the while I myself follow dharma.
Host 1:37:46
I appreciate that, and I appreciate being able to hear you articulate the direction and aspiration with which you, you you would like to go. And I think also as we, as we look at this kind of public, private dynamic, I think another part of this is we could call it kind of inside, inside, outside dimensions. And this is something that, well, this is something I talked about with Jonathan Crowley about the Goenka organization. Jonathan was a Goenka meditator and teacher for many decades, and in my series of conversations with him, talks about the experience of deciding to step down as a teacher and then leave the organization entirely, and the kind of ruffled feathers and and and and slight tension that occurs between some, not all, but some people who we thought were friends and comrades and in stepping outside. And I think that this is there's something symbolic here, I think, whether it's seeing the aspirations of someone as a monk or nun leading a certain kind of monastic life that they then step outside of, or whether it's in an organization like the Gwen organization, these are spiritual examples. There are many different kinds of examples of people who are living one kind of life, and we, we see the life they're living, and maybe gain some inspiration or joy in seeing how they live their life, and then they make a choice that's good for them, but it's not NES, even though we're not the one living their life from afar, we see that choice and feel like, no, no. I want this, this dream that I have, not even for myself, but just this thing that I think is good in the world. I want you to keep doing whatever this thing is for yourself, so that I can feel the way that I feel about watching someone else happen. And I think this is where it's and also this is because you are a public as we've said, you were a public figure for for quite some time, and so this, this played into it, in some ways. The being a public figure means that people were watching your public career so to speak, and your public choices, and then weighing in on those public choices a positive or negative. So that was taking place. I do you know, as I'm saying. This, I have to reflect. I do remember, over the years, many years ago, having conversations with you where you did talk several occasions. I'm sure you remember this. I'm sure you've said this to other people. You did speak about your own tremendous sadness whenever you saw a monastic disrobe and take on lay clothes, whether it was a temporary ordination, or whether it was something longer that then changed course that you you felt this deep sense of sadness when this happened, as I recall the conversations with you, I recall the sadness that you expressed. I don't recall a sense of judgment, to be fair. I don't recall you expressing some kind of judgment that they shouldn't have done this, or it's better. It's it's they've made the wrong decision, but just a sense of sadness that, that that there, that it's a it's a better thing for the world to see more monks and nuns on the path. This is something you also said in earlier in this conversation. Is your your feeling that you you don't want your decision to in any way impact those who are already in robes, or those who are thinking of taking on robes and so And yet, I, you know, there's this fine line between a sense of sadness or even disappointment, and in as I remember you articulated to me years ago about mutual friends that we had that made decisions to disrobe at different times, and then more of a harsh judgment of the kind you've been speaking of people that have been have been a bit harsher in expressing towards you some, you know, some, some rather mean words and maybe unfair statements. And so there, there is this kind of kind of balance that one has to navigate. But that being said, I think, you know, I'm really pleased to hear how clearly you've articulated what it is you want for yourself. I think we can all only be so lucky in life if we know what it is we want to do, and if that thing that we want to do is not causing harm to the world, of course, and is actually causing benefit all the better. These are our these are our lives to live and, and, and we're the ones who are making those choices with it. So I, and I also you, you already gave an answer for a question I was going to ask, which I think other people have as well, is the way you've presented this disrobing has been something has has been really a situation of circumstance in the situation you found yourself in of nothing really working in any dimension. So in some ways, as you were describing it early on, I got the feeling, oh, well, maybe, maybe this is, this is your lay period. This is a period where it's just much easier to be a lay in terms of accomplishing what it is you wish to do, however, you've already preempted that question and said that you have no intention to consider becoming a monk again in life. And very articulated. You've very articulately spoken about what your intention is to have a family to have kids, to make money, to to to go into business education and to support a monastery and other monks, and so it sounds like, at this moment, least, you have a really clear direction forward.
Ashin Sarana 1:43:14
Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah, a little note about the monks who, who deserved and mine and my points. So if a monk disrobes, it's not the end of the world. You know, like the monk can be, the person can become a monk again. And this is one very interesting thing, you know, like when I wanted to disrupt, we had, we had a setup with a monk next to who I was supposed to disrobe, and he did not know that I would be disrobing, because I didn't want the layperson who was actually organizing the monk to know that I would be disrobing. It was not that I wanted to keep it, you know, secret for the month. But anyway, because I, you know, I have seen how the lay people you know, were like gradually disappearing, you know, from my life when I told them that I would be deserving. So I didn't want to tell this particular layperson, know, you know, that I'm going to disrobe, because then she may not be willing, you know, to organize that month. In the end, actually, that layperson actually turned to be one of the most supportive people in my freedom of my choice ever, you know in my life. So this is what one, one of my very, very special supporters. So not we don't like live together or have close connection, but she, she was very, very supportive, very nice, a very, very special person. So, but anyway, I didn't know this about her, and so I didn't tell her. So she, of course, didn't tell to the monk who I was supposed to visit to, you know, do my confession. You know, monks, when they break small roles, even unintentionally. And I had some unintentionally broken roles. So I wanted to, like, confess those roles that monk and then disrobe. So the plan was that I. I will go to see this lady, you know, for meal. She invited me for a meal, and then after that meal, I will go to see that monk, and I will confess my whatever unintentionally broken roles, and then I will disrobe in front of him. But we didn't tell him that I will disrobe. And then when I was going to disrobe, I we have this amazing idea that we will call him before we go to see him in the monastery. So we called him and he got scared. He got literally insanely scared because he somehow came to the conclusion that he disrobes me, the popular, famous, great Ashin sadhana, then he may have a problem. So he told me, No, I'm not going to, you know, to, you know, the disrobing process actually very fast and very simple. The monk who's disrobing just sits down in front of another monk, ideally a monk, but can be a layperson as well. And the monk says three sentences, or actually one is enough. But traditionally they say this, the one three times, and then after that monk says these three sentences in front of the human being who understands him, then that visual being is gone, is done. So it should not take more than about like 10 seconds, 20 seconds, and even if the monk was 30 years a monk within those 20 seconds, if it is properly pronounced and properly understood by the human being, then the digital being is complete. There's nothing else to do just that one sentence, say three times. And there are several versions of the sentences. They're mentioned in paradica, Bali, in the in the little explanation, close to the end of the first paradica. Anyway, so I called this monk, and I said venerable, so you do not need to worry about my disrobing, because I know exactly, you know I'm a veneer master, or I was so I am a veneer master. I know all these sentences. You just sit there. I tell my sentences, and we're done, and he's like, no, no, not at all. So I felt, I felt deceived. What will how was I deceived? I had the expectation that monks have loving kindness among each other, and that's exactly what I didn't get. I did not see loving kindness among monks when I wanted to to go somewhere to about it. What is master zero? I did not see compassion among monks when I wanted to disrupt, because, think about it, if a monk prohibits another monk from disrobing, the monk who wants to disrupt will disrobe anyway. There is nothing to stop. You know, Ajahn Chah himself says, see if somebody wants to disrupt, they will disrupt. There's no way out. But if the monk who deserves disrobes forcefully, unhappily with troubles, that Monk will never become a monk again, I guarantee. And I have that experience, and I'm so much determined to never, ever become a monk again. And one of the reasons is that it's just hell. You know, there's hell among the monks. It's horrible. It's my experience. Of course, it's not hell. If you are a starting monk, everybody loves you. It's nice, but as soon as you start, be popular, important, knowledgeable, then it is hell, or it was for me, maybe I did something wrong, whatever you can and punish me, but my experience was that it was hell, and I don't want to hurt again. So anyway, of course, maybe next year we become a monk, and everybody will laugh, I don't know, but now that's my feeling. So my point is that I wanted to disrobe. And this monk, you know, was very mean to me. He was very unpleasant to me. He was very not nice to me at all, and it was very, very uncomfortable. So he rejected me. So we could not go there to this rope. So I was lucky that there was another mom, somewhere else, more senior, more knowledgeable. So we had this amazing idea. You know what? We will not call him in advance. We will just surprise him. We will go to his monastery. And as I kindly talk to him, I will just tell him the three sentences, and I disrobe, yes. So we went there, to the monastery. I went. I sat down nicely with him, and as I was kindly, nicely, happily, gently talking to him, I told him those three sentences, and by those three sentences I deserved. But surprise, this monk actually was kind, and he said, you know, you know what? Wait a okay. You said those sentences. I didn't understand. But you know, you know, it was not exactly it. Let's do it in the traditional way. He took me to his room, and he did it with me, traditionally, with all kindness and love and support. This was amazing. This was amazing. So, you know, it's very good if people, when they see that a monk is fully determined to deserve, you can ask him, are you 100% determined to deserve, or are you still considering so he will tell you, and I always tell 100% determined. And they're like, No, surely you're not. No, no. If he's 100% determined, is he's determined there's nothing you can do. You can do one thing, and that's kindness, love and support, that is one thing you can do, and there's nothing else that will ever help anyway. So this elder monk who has like, 30 years of monkhood, he was so kind and loving and so amazing. This was very, very nice experience, and this is exactly what should be there, if the disrobing is a nice, kind, patient, supported experience, and believe it or not, but my preceptor, upajaya, was very nice, kind and supportive of me. Why is this so extremely important? Because if the monk is robes with kindness and love and support, well, then the person will like to become a monk again. That's what you get. So this is my big advice to everybody. See if you ever hear about a man who wants to disrupt, ask him you want to deserve 100% sure, or you are still considering, if he's considering, of course, do whatever you can to to make him a monk, to make him stay among but if he tells you 100% you need to provide full support so that his disjobing is smooth and nice, loving and kind, because that is exactly what will make him become a monk again in the future.
Host 1:52:14
Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to sit with us and share in further detail about your decision to take the time to explain a transition you're going through and what you're looking ahead. I would also like to invite you as we close to one last comment. I know that your relationship with the country and society and people of Burma is very deep. I know you've been quite concerned about the terrible atrocities of the military regime and the suffering that's been inflicted on Burmese people, with the extent with the human rights violations that have continued.
Ashin Sarana 1:52:54
So for me, Myanmar. Myanmar is like my second homeland. It's the place where I truly met Buddhism, where I truly met understanding of Buddhism, whatever way you understand these words. It's the country where I experienced true peace, true love, true care, true progress. In Dhamma in meditation, is the country where I learned Vipassana. Actually did not learn Vipassana in Sri Lanka, believe it or not, it's the country where I have seen it is possible to follow Five Precepts throughout our lives. You know, as I saw the different laypeople. It is possible to be a very devout Buddhist. It is possible to be patient and to love your enemies in Myanmar, this is something you see 100% something you cannot miss. You will see how to love your enemies in by your own experience. As you see people, you see hundreds of 1000s, millions of people who love their enemies. Of course, there are people who don't love their enemies in Myanmar, but I was able to see so many who can and this is so inspiring, and this is something I have learned from my life, and I am absolutely, eternally indebted to, to Myanmar, to Myanmar people, to Myanmar Buddhism, to the great masters of Myanmar. Very, very thankful to them. I admit that I believe that the only country in the world where Buddhism is truly thriving, is Myanmar, believe it or not, despite, of course, their political unrest and things. And I definitely would like to encourage everyone to support the democratic movement, to support hwpl, to support nug in Myanmar, because. Believe it or not, hwpl and nug support reason. They support reason and they support freedom, and Buddhism is reason and Buddhism is freedom. In the Buddha's time, you never had like I said this, so shut up or I kill you. No, there is nothing like this in our scriptures, believe it or not. And nug hwpl, the democratic movement in Myanmar is very nicely in lines with the Pali scriptures, with the Buddha's time, which fully supports free thinking, which fully supports reason which fully supports self, you know, self exploration supports, you know, search one's own experience, a kind of science, you know. But this is a little bit misleading, and I definitely stand by nug, I fully Stand by hwpl, I fully stand by the Democratic efforts, and I absolutely reject all of the all of the role, all of the supremacy, or All of the plans for reigning over Myanmar, by by the general man online, and by his military and by his cronies and so on and on, because they have done only bad to Myanmar. There has never been anything good they have done. And they need to be, they absolutely need to be removed from all their power, because every moment of their power is very, very bad deed for them. And out of loving kindness, we should stop them in doing bad deeds, and we should help whatever way it is, be it by money support or be it by nice messages, or be it by whatever it is, of course, not breaking the five precepts, never. But whatever is within five precepts that may support stop of the military and progress and ascension of democratic role in Myanmar, I fully support it. If any one of you have some suggestions what I can do? Of course, I cannot do much at this moment, but anything I can do, I definitely want to support again my email address, j, A, N, S, E, N, S, T, O, V, I, C, E, k@gmail.com Jansen stovisseck@gmail.com is my email address. I absolutely stand by energy and democracy of Myanmar, and I wish that Myanmar is soon liberated from the oppression from the dictator, and that people again find freedom, peace, wealth and, of course, full happiness in Dhamma and in their life. May you all be happy, may you be healthy and may you be successful in everything you do.
Host 1:58:18
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