Transcript: Episode #265: Reading the Tea Leaves
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Host 0:11
You're listening to a special version of the Insight Myanmar podcast, which covers the fallout from the military coup and the Democratic resistance. During this crisis, we are not only ramping up the production of our podcast episodes, but also our blog and other social media platforms as well. So we invite you to check these out. Along with signing up for our regular newsletter. All of our other projects have been paused indefinitely, so we can focus entirely on this ongoing emergency. But for now, let's get into the show.
Host 1:40
Wait for this episode of insight Myanmar podcast, I'm very pleased to be in the office of the initiatives for international dialogue in Quezon. City, Manila. And our guest has a long standing relationship with Myanmar and with the democracy movement there is we'll get into what he and his organization has done. Mark Bartok, if you can introduce a bit about yourself and your I think, what's very interesting about your story, is that you you are you're obviously you're living in the Philippines, you're a Filipino, and you've come to be involved in these wider issues of democracy and human rights, the fight against dictatorship, authoritarianism, not just in your own country in but the greater region and specifically in Myanmar. So can you tell us about the early years of your journey? Tell us about how, what led you to want to develop an interest in these areas and what your your your first areas of interest and involvement were?
Marc Batac 2:39
How do I start I? Well, I was born in the eastern regions of the Philippines, and usually the eastern regions are the poorest provinces in the country. That's also where I think there's really deep dysfunctionality of governance. So patronage, political dynasties, poverty, and that's also where usually the armed conflict here in the Philippines also occur. So that's, I think, a reality for for me, and so that's where I think the early politicization, you know, sense of reality is, for me, I was formed. And then, I think that I think just opened up, I think, how I also viewed the world. And then I went to university. Here in here in the capital, I went to the National University where, of course, a lot of activists, human rights defenders, organizers, scholars, researchers, and even infamous politicians, including the old dictator. were, you know, trained and, you know, we're educated. I took on political science, being interested in how politics is there something that I thought was wrong with dysfunctional with our political system, and they wanted to further understand how, how it works. And so that big, just opened up the space as well for for me to be involved in politics here in the country. Yeah, so I think to shorten it. I got involved in organizing here in the Philippines as well on issues of authoritarianism, sticker pressure, human rights, economic injustice. And in that, early years of Youth Activism, I got linked up as well with other activists from other regions. I remember, it was around 2000 10s, when when I was doing this, and this was the, I think the the time of the Umbrella Movement, and also the Sunflower Movement in Taiwan. In the Philippines, I was also doing some organizing around protests against anti corruption, anti patronage, it was around 2013 20 14 million people march. It was around the 20 protests against the 2012 cybercrime law here in the Philippines. And so I think, in that sense, without making this simply about, you know, an individual story, I think it also speaks, I think of a wave of consciousness among young people. Around the time Millennials have, I think, a greater awareness of what's happening. Individual in the in the world, there were waves of protests, but also a digital aspect of of that activism and political consciousness means that we have access to information on what is what else is happening in other parts of the region. And that's when you get interested, I think with, with, and trying to see the links as well with what's happening in the rest of East Asia, with what's happening, you know, trying to resonate that with with what's happening as well here in the Philippines. And so there were some connections that were being made across the activists and movements back then. And so that was, I think, the, the, I think, in short, these sorts of the earlier relationships that I've had with Myanmar, but also other youth activists and movement leaders here in the region.
Host 7:04
So one thing I'm wondering, going back to those early years, when you talked about living in this poor region, and seeing these injustice is taking place, and that motivating you, I think that there there, there are many other people that could be in your situation that were in your situation of seeing these wrongs, that were there and wanting to find a way to address them, but something unique inside you, something turned you on, either from inside or outside or some combination that made you not just live in this environment where something bad was taking place, but also want to have an act of agency in in doing something about it. So I wonder if you can, if you can go back and share what particularly about you, not just living in these things where these wrongs were happening, but something triggering in you to decide that you actually wanted to be a force or an agent to do something about it, to have the volition to and secondly, to feel that you actually couldn't do something about it, that you actually could be an agent of change with these kinds of monumental structures that seem like they're there forever.
Marc Batac 8:14
Well, it I always tell my friends that what introduced me to political activism was actually political art. I was an artist and still an artist, but I think I was more into art in when I in younger years. So in during secondary and primary school, I was already doing political cartooning and political art. It started with of course, cartooning and painting and all of that. But as I was, you know, in surrounded by political patronage, political dynasties, corruption in order that I think I found politics figuring in in my art, and and I think that spurred the interest to when I was speaking, I think it was the what was the option for me to pursue in university, that's when I wanted to understand more than deep beneath that, you know, that analysis. And so I put my art on the side for a little bit and went into two instead study political science and politics. I wasn't acting on it. I wasn't organized yet when I was in university, but I think what I think was the starting point of my me finding anything my own agency was coming from the province we are housed in, usually the dormitory, a subsidized dormitory in the university. And most if not all of us are from the provinces from working class background, it's the only way that we could, you know, survive, we are making our small allowance from our families fit within, you know, from within a week. So that, you know, because we also care that, you know, we back home, they don't, they don't also have enough. At some point they wanted to close down our dormitory and school administration didn't have any backup plans on where they will take us. It was so out of the blue that they wanted to kick us out, because apparently, they they said that they wanted to renovate it, but we didn't trust them, that they really had any plans. And this was in the context as well of the privatization of education. This things are so out of, you know, are just theoretical, conceptual to me, I just studied that. But now experiencing it. Within my I think my own experience, I think just made me peer more deeply into my own social background, I felt it was unfair. And I felt that it needed collective action. So I joined the protests of my dormitory mates and students against that. That also made me realize, I think my working class background, my you know, my, my coming from the province, you know, that the lack of privilege that we had the access to education and social services. These are things that I've just been reading up in university, I would see protests, you know, outside Afters after classes about this, but I was afraid as well to be involved because my, my, my, my parents said that I need to focus on on classes. Being part of being an activist is frowned upon as well, because they're versus thinking that if you get recruited, then you become a rebel. And I was afraid of that. And at the same time, I felt really deep sense of responsibility to my family as a Filipino that's always been inculcated that you have to focus on your education because this how you pay back the, you know, the efforts of your, of your parents. And so I focused and focused on on that, and, and would usually look the other way when their protests, you know, happen. But that experience they think of, you know, of being now directly experiencing the material effect of all this, I think made me realize that I could not escape from this. No, and actually, this is actually a reason for me to get be more involved and be more involved in collectives. So that first step was joining that, you know, that protest. And eventually, I think that after university or right, immediately, before I graduated, I was already looking for organizations that works on issues of economic justice, looking, and it's linked to, you know, to, to other stuff that, you know, that that speaks to my experience as someone from the provinces from a working class background, so, immediately after university, that's when I tried to apply with organizations working with you know, with labor rights, with economic justice. So my first organization was with a national organization working on issues against anti legacies of the colonial debt from and, and neoliberalization because this policies of privatizing Social Services took away access, of particularly of underprivileged marginalized class such as where I come from, from, you know, from being able to access this equal opportunity that that fair chance to live. Why is it even more difficult for for us to you know, to access this when they should be right for everyone, they say that it's right for everyone. But, you know, for if you come, you're a student from a middle class or upper class background, and you are from from the cities from Manila, you know, you don't have any problems with being housed shouldn't be a problem. It shouldn't be an issue. If you could focus on school. I shouldn't be distracted from from this but for me who comes from the problems? Who comes from have a family that you know has to go to a family that, you know that parents that has to juggle multiple work just to get sent their kids to school to university. And I, as well, in my early years of the university, I was also working as a working student, I was I was also delivering meats from the province, I would send them to some of the smaller restaurants, here in Manila. And, and so so that just made me think realize that you know, that there is something that could not just be dealt with, individually or by just you know, but by just putting your head down, and working hard, working hard is not enough. You have to build power with with those around, you have the same experience and really hold the government to account and those structures and policies that keep us you know, down and you know, without access to what should be, you know, a right for all.
Host 16:20
Sure, it's also making me think if I connect the threads of these stories coming together for you, you're you have your personal background and coming from provinces and working class family and somewhat marginalized community and definitely not having a lower income level, then you're reading theories in a book that's talking about these wider issues in not just in Philippines, but just in the world order of how marginalized people are trying to gain the rights and game fair access. And then you're actually engaging in in literal actions. So you're you're you're synthesizing your your background and lived experience with your theory and study into action with others and in starting to do something and I can only imagine how that would feel in terms of the the the sense of powerlessness or even vulnerability that you might have had personally before to suddenly feeling some sense of a change agent, or I can actually I don't have to be a bystander to these injustices, the little meat can actually do something and raise my voice and raise my hand and have some kind of, you know, I could find my voice and my voice can be there, not just for me, but for others that are like me and others that are not like me in terms of the change that we can make. And so how did that start to as you're, as you're moving along, and synthesizing all these together, and you're also you reference these identity issues you had in terms of coming from a traditional Filipino family of the values that you were expected to uphold? And perhaps you're slightly going somewhat outside those expectations? How did how did? How did your identity start to shift during this time? And did you start to see yourself a different way as you moved in this direction?
Marc Batac 18:05
It wasn't necessarily an easy, I think, shift it was a certain accumulation, I think of changes in, you know, a support system changes as well, in my ways of looking at things, it was struggle at the start, because even when, you know, when I started working with organizations, I was afraid of how disappointed my parents would, would be, they would, they would also, I knew that the the the care, and that's why they would you know, they would say some of the stuff like you know, you should be careful when I when I I would try to let them know what we've been doing. And, you know, they were afraid that you know that because of the narrative that when once you're an activist, then you become a rebel. And then when you become a rebel, then you die in the crossfire. And now all the efforts of you know, the family, I think, I could even say, I think I'm the first one. And I think my, I don't know if in my town to go to the National University, that's a big, you know, burden to hold. And so it was you know, it was an aspiration of not only I think my parents but of the clan and you know, of your, of your relatives, but also of your, of of that while especially when you come from the provinces, it's like the entire town is your all of that are your cousins, when when you everyone celebrates your, your successes, when you graduate, your your your phases and names is plastered all over, but the same time when when when there's stuff that's happening to you that isn't a cause for disappointment. But But I think it's it's building as well, you know, as I've been involved in different collectives, that's also building anything the support system as well. For me to, you know, to, to change how I view things. And also, as I started doing organizing and policy research on these things and doing stuff, and kept on that conversation with, with my parents who they use, and how, how they also witnessed how I use the platforms and spaces that I'm in, that also made them, you know, change, and shifted their perspective, as well as what activism is, I wouldn't say, of course, that you know, that they, they, they would look at, I think the, the shiny parts of it. But at the same time, my parents as well, I knew that they had it in them as well to, to see this in a different light. My parents, one of my parents is, you know, in a also works in, in government, and, you know, and, and, and he has, my father has seen corruption, and he has been, you know, other one out in work, so, and they knew from how I would listen to them, even as a child, you know, you're not supposed to, to be involved in discussions of your elders, but how they would talk about the dysfunctionality of government of good local politics. They had progressive views, it's just that, you know, they are family family person. So therefore, that now, this how they would act on it is based on, you know, is restricted by their, their responsibility as well. But, but I think it was easier to be easier for them, you know, to eventually understand, because they also see what was dysfunctional with, you know, with society, I think what worries them, I think, ultimately is, you know, my safety and my security, but it's just a matter of anything, then realizing that, you know, I am not necessarily taking unnecessary risks. And at the same time, you know, I have a support system as well, that, you know, that that, that ensures that the collective security of collectives and organization. So it was key, I think, for me to, you know, to, at some point for them to be able to meet here, every now and then some of my colleagues.
Host 22:35
What are the risks of being an activist in the Philippines? How would you characterize them?
Marc Batac 22:40
In the recent years, but, but not only in recent years, but I think during the time that I was in university that was under the president Gloria Macapagal Arroyo administration, that was the peak of extrajudicial killings of activists. So there were a lot of militarized policies. Back then, when I remember that in my first years, in, you know, in, in university, there were, there were two students who were doing their thesis who were disappeared, because they were doing thesis research on, on issues, so that that is touchy to, you know, to the community, and, you know, that's touchy for, for the government. And so suddenly, they were, you know, discipline, they were activists, but also doing their their research. And up until now, they haven't been, you know, they haven't been found that that's carried me a lot. And I'm pretty sure my parents also carry them that, you know, one day What if their son does not, you know, does not return? It's, I think, even more, more painful for for a parent not to, you know, at least when to do not know, you know, there's no closure at this point. And that continues up until now, I think, just a few months ago, there's there are activists, as well there are two activists that are organizing in that are from Northern Luzon, the Cordillera and they also got, you know, disappeared. And so this could continuous and continuous red tagging, framing, that you know that because you're human rights activist and, and an organizer means that your community is means that you're able and necessarily saying that, you know, that that that there's something wrong when you're a human rights activist or there's something wrong when you believe in you know, in some form of socialism or communism, or, or you act on on injustice. Done to communities means that your environment, your terrorist, that is not simply public vilification. It stays as public vilification. It has been always documented that some Many of the summary killings that has happened in the past years and through the years were predicated by, you know, by this harassment, sometimes, you know, being your name being involved in, you know, in lists of that you are these are NPA, NPA, or New People's Army rebels, supporters sympathizers, or they get text messages of harassment or they get, you know, for example, funeral flowers or direct warning that you should start with this. So, those are just some of the risks, but also, I think there's also the risk, I think of it comes from this, you know, from from state, from the state, but there are others as well, from you know, from from, from the site, I think we don't know where the summary killings happened. But for the most part, those that does this enforced disappearance and summary killings, have been documented to have links from, from the security forces from the intelligence force. So I think especially when you're working outside in the rural areas, that becomes a thing. quite dangerous, not only for, you know, for your name, but also for your life and limb.
Host 26:30
Yeah, right. That's, that's very serious. So I want to get on with your story. And so we go from how you come from the provinces, you have an education in the city, you realize your agency and start organizing, and then after graduation, get involved in organizations that are in that are that are carrying out work that are in your field, and you're doing national kind of work and organizing? What was what was the moment or transition when you started to look beyond the borders, and see that there are regional ACN issues that are not exactly the same, but that there are some profound similarities and neighboring countries that you see here.
Marc Batac 27:12
It was a thing in 2013 2014. Right around that we, I was working with a national coalition, again, on working on issues of privatization, social, public spending. And so around that time, I was helping do some coalition work around that, then, again, biggest issue back then in 2013. And 2014, was the use misuse of government taxes by public officials. So it was the scam around the use of the PDF. So it was a pork barrel scam that led to the million people march. I was doing some research, but also some educational discussions back then, during that time to push the analysis. Well, that is this not simply a an issue of corruption in the limited sense. But this is corruption in the broad sense, which is this about political dynasties in the patronage system and how, you know, government, resort, government, government institutions, and taxes are being used to perpetuate the power of political elites, traditional politicians. And so that I was doing that organizing, and again, in around that time, in 2014, early 2014, the Sunflower Movement was happening as well in, in in Taiwan, and then the Umbrella Movement, around the mid mid middle of 2014 was happening in, in Hong Kong. And also around that time, there was a coup in Thailand. I was already interested back then, you know, on on regional and global politics, I was already following the news, but to see young folks take a center role in their movements. You know, for example, in new democracy movement in 2014, in Thailand, they were the first ones who, who came out during, you know, some of the first ones who came out after the coup in Thailand, and then of course, the student movement, who are quite, you know, central as well in the, in the Umbrella Revolution and as well as the umbrella and the Sunflower Movement as well in Thailand that again, students occupying the parliament, also, I think, made me realize I think of the capacity and the power, they miss him as well of not only of a singular young person, but this generation that is, you know, that has also has its strengths. I was mentored, and, and looked up to the veterans Marshal of veterans from the 70s and 80s. And I always usually compare that what is, you know, what is with them? That's, you know, that that I'm not seeing in, we could not find, why couldn't we not, you know, what are not seeing this, that massive mobilization or centrality of, you know, as well as youth leadership in the past. And, and I think that just part as well, that, you know, seeing, seeing those young activists, think, not just for myself, but many of the young activists of my generation, mostly Millennials around that, that time, so as well, that you know, that we have to do something as well. And we have to also push ourselves, and it's okay to occupy our and insist on our space in our movements. But at the same time, they've, we've seen that they've also been reaching out to, you know, to each other. And so, back then, I was working in national or with national organizations. But there were also opportunities for us to be in regional spaces. So some regional meetings, and there were some exchanges that were happening as well, but then you will meet other organizers, and NGO workers and scholars, from Myanmar, from Thailand, you know, and those exchanges, we've nurtured and we've kept in touch, especially other young young folks. And so, at some point, in 2017, a few of us decided that we should meet. And we did a, you know, there were attempts, already experiments by big NGOs, for, you know, youth networks and didn't just fly. And so some of us that we've we've known and met each other, and remained in touch through online and follow each other through Facebook, what we've been doing, and posting, you know, back then, you know, changing our profile pictures for each other, or retweeting each other's stories or posting about each other's you know, we said that, why don't we meet up? Why don't we, you know, not depend on big NGOs. And so, we, we gathered, I think there were, I think, 50, less than 20 of us gathered, we, it was a youth resource, youth organized youth facilitated youth suicide meeting. So a few of the leaders, actually, I will not name them, but there are quite a few leaders from the Umbrella Movement or some sort of Sunflower Movement from seals. In Japan, if you remember, the anti vac the anti security law in Japan around the same what time 2016 from Thailand as well, the anti the monetary reform protests in there. There's also folks from Indonesia, from Myanmar as well. And from the Philippines. So we gathered in 2017. And so we tried to experiment on creating our own platform. It did not fly as we wanted it to be. But again, there's, these are all experiments, you know, experiments in my analysis was because we were mimicking as well, some of the, some of us are already working with NGOs. And you know, and we were mimicking how they do things, but it just does not fit with the ways of working of social movements that we already belong in. In some of us, we are partly within houses with the NGOs and think tanks in some of us are students in and then and I'm still active in social movements. So we're making the does, it just does it fit with, with with, with how we do things, and also it doesn't fit with the new forms, and needs and culture of organizing of young folks. So, but as all experiments, you know, these are successes in progress in the failures of attempts to connect that's where we built, you know, knew other formations so we kept in touch the relationships we would nurtured out of out of that is So there's some, in I think, in short, there were opportunities, it speaks about a thing, that period of young leaders and young activists taking central roles in social movements. Number one, and second, young folks seeing that they're, you know, our many governments autocrats are taking a page from each other. Right. And they're learning from each other, we are seeing how they are learning and support, you know, sunsense, justifying Israel, or being using the platform of ASEAN or the UN, you know, to to justify certain behavior or not do something and block decisive responses to injustice, so that those institutions were formed to supposedly prevent and respond to, and so which means that we are social movements. And now the second, and even second, sometimes we are already the first diners of our social movements now have to also do better at being connected and learning from from from each other. So it's, so all of this speaks of that, you know, of that moment, as well of, you know, history. I think it you know, it would have been difficult, of course, to do this without, you know, us, you know, the online digital platform. And also, I think that, you know, that that ability for us to you know what to do, every now and then it's a privilege to to be able to fly, you know, but every time that we have work in, in other countries, we would we would try out of our work, work times you would meet with other collectives for drinks and also visit some of their collectors and you know, and organize some stuff, some sit in some some lectures and educational discussions. Yeah, so it just snowballed, I think.
Host 37:02
And so this collective that you were forming was this. We haven't we haven't named it yet. But there's milk tea Alliance, which has been this kind of loose affiliation of young activists in different countries learning where they can have solidarity and mutual support. The the group that you're this informal group of youth that you're talking about, for me was, was in what way? Was this related to you? Or was it actually the Nokia Alliance? Yeah, so
Marc Batac 37:29
many of the relationships that, you know, that that were there, that allowed for, for some of the protest actions were already present before the hashtag. I wouldn't use the hashtag verse catalyzed anything, some of those digital action and awareness online during that time, in 2020, but at the same time, that ability for for the messages out of that hashtag and to be distilled in know, and cross messaging and in support across protest movements, due to relationships already present before the hashtag. I think I would probably start with, you know, how, how our node of the Milky Alliance came, came to be. It was in 2016, that I was involved in the protests against the burial of the dictator in the hero cemetery. And at one point, this were millennial led as well, occupation in front of the beginning. And then there was this one person who was just odd in the room, he he's a Burmese who was in that in our protests. And so he introduced we got introduced and, and, and we clicked, you know, and we remain in touch. So I was already working with a regional organization at that point. So I went whenever I am in Yangon, he was the one who would arrange for me to meet with his seniors of generation 88 Oh, wow. Other youth folks, as well. Back then they were, you know, he from, you know, from duration wave. So, even younger folks who were working on the issues as well of, you know, Rohingya and minority issues, so, and back then they were actually at that point, they were starting to look into how they would organize themselves as a new political party. So that was, you know, and I would sit in and I, of course, they were became roommates. But sometimes you will, you will translate. So there are many times that you know that I would, I would go for drinks or you know, or watch them. And I'm sort of have them do their own meetings, but and, and so I've remained in touch with not just him, but many of them through through the years. And he was also he, I brought him when when we were organizing that regional meeting in 2017 of that youth led youth organized youth facilitated youth event I pulled him in. And so there were already some of those things that, you know, I was trying to weave together and as organizers, we want to be everything together. Because that means it's collective, its collective power. We would do as well, out of that process, you would do some online exchanges, online trainings on nonviolent direct action. And such as that, I think, fast forward to 2020. The hashtag melty Alliance emerge. Of course, as an organic movement, no one organization, no one individual could, you know, could could claim that they were the ones who originated and found in the Milky Alliance, it was truly, you know, an organic, digital, first digital movement.
Host 41:40
But this was an organic digital movement that you and your cohorts were bringing about this was not outside of that group. Right.
Marc Batac 41:46
So I think it was, it was two strands that we're we're you know, we're, we're already on meetings, some of us were already also quite active online. So we were also involved in using the hash tag. So these are two strands that at some point, converged. Together. So if, if, if you remember the hashtag, I would roughly describe it as it's a coalition, coalition, but maybe cross-pollination of voice love fandom. And then of geopolitics. It started as you know, and eventually, but it shifted as well. They started, as you know, as a counter trolling of Taiwanese, netizens and Thai and Hong Kong citizens against, you know, CCP trolls. But eventually, the messages if you look at it online, and then shifted, as well of using the hashtag, to other issues, outside of you know, geopolitics, and you know, in the bullying of Beijing, one of the early I think hashtags that use the hashtag, meteorites in relation to me and no arrows, I think about dams, the day after the hashtag naughty lions was, you know, was, was was, was born. So there were ash hashtags are, these are opportunities for digital natives and digital digital activists to add meaning into into the hashtag that that's the concept of virality, it becomes viral because you allow for those who participate in it to add meaning in it and to transform it. So eventually, that's when you see the messages. By after a few weeks and months, it became, you know, hashtags used against the, against the time monarchy in the market system, and also the repression in the the National Security Law and extradition law in Hong Kong. So it became you know, any more about geopolitics, but now the domestic, domestic and indigenous issues that that is, in Saudis in East Asia, it's about state violence, it's the militarized policing. It's about human rights and you know, authoritarianism at home. So, but many of us are involved as well, in in the organizing of offline, so and, and so some of the peers that, you know, that that were involved, I've been in touch through the year, for example, Penguin, who whose was quite a figure in the mid 2020. Sprint, mid 2020s. Protests, I think, in Thailand, we were in touch as well. He was one of the folks that you know, through the years I've been also in touch in touch with so just to name that, you know, that that some of us who were who were involved in, in digital mobilization, were also connected to the offline mobilization. And that allowed for, you know, and there's relationships as well, that were being built on the offline space. The goal now as you know, how do we, you know, synthesize that connection between, you know, the digital space and the the offline space, because usually, I think seniors think that it's, it's, it's a dichotomy for us. But for us, it's always an extension of our civic space of our space to speak up when, when our space offline is restricted. You know, we turned online and sometimes we even use optimized space that we have online to be able to organize more effectively and spread, you know, information to send synergize our actions offline. And so as you can see, now the you know, the access as well to information learning from online on, you know, tactics from Hong Kong on, on, in symbolism zoom, the three finger salute. That was that was started by, you know, I think first originated, started adopted by the Thai activists, the rubber duckies, in Hong Kong, the symbolism of the milk tea in the localizable. But the from, from from Taiwan. All of this were being synergize by from different fronts from those who are active in both but also active either in the digital space and online space. So and so this is now the this No, no balling. I think the moment that, you know that, as I said, it's a question for me back then on how do we now systematize in some way that fits with the organic newness and dynamism of movements, both online and offline? I think the opportunity came in the first week of the coup in 2021. So in the first week, of February, the coup happened the day immediately they after the Burmese activists, my friend who have been, you know, in contact with my brother, who, who, when, when his youth and network reached out to, you know, to, to me, and for a an emergency meeting, you know, an emergency call, and I knew what what was coming. We were, of course, already active online with, you know, with the hashtags of multi alliances and speaking up for for Myanmar. And so I knew that at some point, it was coming. So the this person who came up in our block, Marcos, protests in 2017, now reached out to me and they're asked us, Mark, Could you arrange for us to meet the military alliance? And I had to pause for a little bit because being involved in that past year, on in the digital campaign, using the hashtag and also be involved in some of the chat groups of the military lines is quite dispersed, dispersed movement. There's no singular nuclear line. So I told them quite carefully that, unfortunately, it will be impossible to meet with me with V Milty. There is no, there is no one, the Alliance. But I have a counter. Another suggestion, why don't rebuild a meeting point for all of those who resonate with the hashtag and the name and symbolism and aspirations of the military alliance. Part of the discussion as well as you know, is, will be should we adopt the name Milka Lyons, because it's not owned by anyone. But I also insisted, and that was out of the discussion, I insisted, as well that it's not owned by anyone, which means it's owned by me. And therefore, it also in second, it speaks to us as well, organizers on offline, it speaks about our experience our pain and our dreams. And, and so the MIPI alliance is ours as well. So that's when they name our chat group, Loki Alliance, friends of Myanmar. So it became a pocket of milk the Alliance activists both offline and online, that that wants to work on this particular issue of Myanmar, but at the same time, the request and the ask of Myanmar friends what wasn't simply the solidarity for Myanmar. I remember them saying that, you know that they said that mark, we wanted to milk in with the milk Alliance and the reason was today it's Myanmar But tomorrow in the next day will be another country, it keeps on happening something there is something broken with the international system, with the UN with ASEAN with the markets. This institutions that promise was reforming promised to prevent this and respond to this, but instead of being used to justify the harms, you know, against us. And so we need to be able to do more, I think in learning what's you know, what's the connection, and diagnose what's really wrong. And so the request wasn't simply for for that, for that, for that platform to be dedicated specifically on on Myanmar, we were using what was happening in Myanmar as a jumping off point to, you know, to analyze, and to organize, to on broader issues that is common to us, we wanted to discover and build relationship around that journey. And so even when it's named, it was me and my friends who named it, you know, Nokia, lions, friends of Myanmar, to some extent, now, looking back to us, it was already a starting point of the backstage of, you know, the melting of the metal ions. And so from that, you know, we're just a little over a dozen activists.
So over that weekend, week, called up the friend, you know, some of the trusted friends that we know would be, would show up, you know, this is what we've been waiting for, we knew that some of the there were successes and progress and trials and errors, and developing and use network. And so that the platform through the years, but we also knew, as you know, CSUN activists as well, we are young, but we this is not new to us, we knew that we have to nurture our relationships, keep on doing online, teach ins, you know, without even a name yet, because we are preparing for that moment that you know, that this relationship, well, you know, what would be useful, we are just waiting for that wave. And this is the way that we've been waiting for. And so the first ones that we call, were also the the individuals that were in that defunct inactive Youth Network that met in 2017. And also some of the other relationships that we've built through the years. So that was done over a dozen youth activists that are now have more experience quite more well connected, have more resources that in simply not in financial sense, but you know, in social capital in their movements, but also in their organization. Right. So we have more information. Now some of them have already graduated or, you know, have have more networks, you know, so they were the ones that we we reach out to and ask a simple, we don't know, what's, you know, what's what's happening, and I'm pretty sure our Myanmar friends are, we'll have to figure out the specific ask, because, you know, this developing, you know, but the, what we have to do right now is simply just show up, and we will figure it out together well, and so in Monday, the Monday immediately, the week, a week, exactly a week after the that was the first meeting of melty lions, friends of Myanmar. And we've not stopped three years, and how many months, we met regularly, every Monday evening. For to exchange notes to understand what's happening in Myanmar, there's always news on what's happening in Myanmar, but what's really needed, what's not written in the news, that is the access to that information that we were, that's why we built the space. But also, we wanted that space to you know, for for trust building. So we check we will check in on what's happening in Myanmar and what's happening on our respective countries. But they're stuff that, you know, we would just play among us, we would do some online screening of, of documentaries, we would joke with each other, we would cry together when you know. And so we didn't want this to be a usual, you know, type of NGO to NGO transactional, this is a real solidarity building building relationship around, you know, figuring out crystallizing, what is it that you know, understanding each other experience and therefore, weaving together what is our dream what then we should we replace this broken system with, and I knew that this won't be, you know, a, a one off one month, one year process, this would be a continuous process. So, from the over a dozen individuals, we are now 150 More than 150 activists, artists, feminists, abolitionists, and I'm scholars researchers, mostly 3020 year old 35 year old spanning from Mongolia, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, all over Southeast Asia. Some of us are also in India. In South Asia, the guest for our groups as well in Rumi's Thai Vietnamese days for groups all over in, in Australia, in Europe and Canada, and in the US, and also student organized organizations that, you know, would would, would usually in the meetings would take a step back, because it's our space, it's primarily those that come from Southeast Asia, but are in solidarity with, you know, the military alliance. So, from from now, simply be, you know, dedicated on on on Myanmar, it became a platform for information sharing and events in protest actions across, you know, the concerns this region, but also people asking for tips and you know, information on how to do digital actives and offline activism better. We also did use the platform during the first weeks of of the coup for to look to for mutual aid, concrete mutual aid, we would send top ups and SIM cards from Thailand to Myanmar, aha, right, I remember that, we would also when, when Myanmar friends find find themselves, you know, in Thailand, escaping back then the you know, the closing of the borders, and you know, the the the armed conflict, we would look for houses of friends, where they could stay for a few days. And then we would look for a local organization to host them for, you know, for them for weeks, and then up until we could, you know, find you know, that more long term asylum or, you know, for them, we knew that there is a gap in how the bigger organizations would respond. So, and we are in the front lines, we have a little bit of resource that, you know, that we could and you know, and that's what we mobilized so that we could bridge that. So, yes, it is a digital, it started as a digital. Just a hashtag. But for me, when when I said yes, to our Myanmar friends, it was also an extension of, of my curiosity as well. And my, my calling as well, is my question back then, when the hashtag game was, how can we distill the symbolic power of this hashtag, into strengthening an already existing web of relationships, among our movements, we are simply nodes in our movements, but how can we now just because the hashtag in this name and the symbolisms will be gone and will be forgotten at some point. But what will remain would be the relationships that have deepen that are anchored in you know, in an analysis, you know, analysis of the the concrete link between our material experiences, our pain and our struggles and our our aspirations as well, we will have two that have existed before the hashtag, and therefore will continue to exist after the hashtag.
Host 58:29
It's so brilliant to hear that the way you describe that journey, and as well as the way that Myanmar has played a central role in that journey, both in terms of the Burmese contact you had way back when as well as the coup being this I really liked how you put it that it was this, it wasn't the you didn't look at the coup so much as a shock and a and an immediate scramble, but more like this is the moment we've been waiting for we know that we knew that something was coming and that there was there was some need, there was going to be something that was going to bring us together and this is it. And this is we talk about the this current movement being so remarkably different in terms of the ethnic from our solidarity as well as the online spaces that Burmese activists are using. I think what hasn't gotten enough attention which I'm really realizing talking to you is that this moment is also fundamentally different based on the the Burmese Asiatic relationship that has never really existed before to any degree like you're saying and that that really can be a game changer. And so what I'm as I'm hearing this, one of the questions I have is, you know, there as we look at the difference between this current resistance movement and some of the previous ones and you know, 2007 1988 even going back 1974 with Dan's funeral and some of the other Touchstone moments in Burmese history. Those moments did call up a sense of Action and response from like the free Burma Coalition and the West, you know, and basically, like you had the center points of DC London and let's say like Masonic or something where there was there was activity that was formed around centers and organizations and, and and specific individuals whose whose prominence arose when this happened. And formulated responses and activism really in those I would say those those three power centers is kind of what I think of. And so when 2021 happened, those traditional resistance power centers of activity in London, DC and Mesa, they were they they continue to be active as they had in the past. And so what I'm sure you know, about those organizations, individuals, what they do, what I'm curious about is what were you as this amorphous, multi Alliance, multi Alliance friends of Myanmar, this collective that you were organizing? What What were you trying to bring to it? That was that was different than these traditional ways of reacting? What, what, from where you were sitting and who you were, in your identities? How were you orienting and, and, and being active in this current moment, that was perhaps a departure or different from the allies and the movements that had formed abroad in previous times?
Marc Batac 1:01:22
I would say that, yeah, I would say that, yes, it's different, but it was also not trying to differentiate ourselves. Sure, sure, sure. It's, it's not differentiating ourselves, because, for example, many of us who are active, I've also some, you know, we're, we're mentored, we're also championed young folks who are activists that were active in multi line Spensive, Myanmar, where, you know, we're draws lessons as well, from, you know, from the previous wave of solidarity for Myanmar, for example, I would also give you really do credit that, you know, the ability for me to even play in weaving, one of the weaving roles is that I was housed with, as you said, you've introduced this, this organization that we are in right now, initiatives for international dialogue. It's one of the old solidarity organizations that were organizing, especially in the early 2000s is on the early days of solidarity for democratization of Burma. And being housed here means that I could borrow some of the resources, maybe just some, some meeting account for me to, to host those online check ins, but also the relationships I was working with the organization for, you know, for 10 years, they knew that I am an organizing for organizer first and foremost, before I became you know, a, you know, an NGO worker, in the organizations in this organization, I will be when I leave the organization, and I, you know, we just I have no I, I transitioned out of the organization, but you know, but, but But I, I, you know, I'm still an organizer, but had it not been being housed in this organization, I would not have been able to have the opportunity to go to Myanmar and Makina. To meet with other young activists, they would allow me to, you know, to space to meet with them, and I'm pretty sure many of us who are in that, you know, in initiating have initiating role in multi alliances in different nodes have that privilege and the power and connection to, you know, to that wave, and I think in in a more medicines, we just acts act in waves, you know, it's an ebb, ebbs, and, you know, it's ebbs and flows. And so we build on what has been built before us. But at the same time, I think shifting to what's different is, it's not necessarily unique to the milkier Lyons is this generation, but every generation of young activists, you know, is different culturally, it's about it's not a youth sector, it's about a distinct cultural moment. Because organizing is deeply cultural. And that's why the military alliance draws from, you know, from pop references voice love as a queer person, the reason why I wasn't drawn to to the hashtag first and foremost, in April 2020, because back in the middle of the pandemic, we were all very much online, and we were it was the, the peak of the fandoms of boys Lau and as a queer person I was I was also consumed with this, this Japanese Korea anti war Islam TV series. And so that made me also resonate with you know, with other young folk So, you know, millennials, young millennials, and also Gen z's. And so we were speaking the same, you know, language, and that allowed for that to happen. So, so some of those references sent bobotie is, I think, talks about the particular generation, a particular geography, you know, and so that's that in Southeast Asia, there's different variations of milk tea, yes, but there's the, the exclusive of boba tea, you know, in milk tea and bubble tea, I think that, you know, and, and then, and for sure, the other you young generations, as well, in the Philippines, in Indonesia, and Malaysia, or in Myanmar, they, when they were organizing us young people, they have that, you know, pop, what symbolisms and popular references that, that allows them to connect outside verbal language, that it's just an oil to soften I think, to ease in your report and trust, it's not enough but but it allows for, for the efficiency of, you know, all of organizing the interpersonal relationship. So I think what's different with with the military alliance is really that distinct cultural references as well of this of this generation. It's whether it's boys love, you know, it's the queerness I would always insist that nuclear alliance I started as a queer movement and we will always be a queer movement for me and I hope that it's not forgotten you know, the, the, the, the boba tea, you know, the three finger salute the you know, which refers to you know, the A, the film Hunger Games again very particular to this generation and many more. So, and the other thing I think, that is quite unique with this generation also, I think the preceding generation is the the search for a different kind of organizing, which is non hierarchical distributed, you know, leaderless or leader flow, we insist on leader I would not claim to be the leader or a leader you know, I am one of the leaders everyone in the nuclear alliance is a leader you do not wait for you to be named you draw and what is your power and privilege at this moment and that's your contribution the Philippines you call it Paya, they see your bet, you know, to you know, and that makes you a leader and that that makes you know, this you know, the kind of organizing quite fluid it has its cons, but we do not you know, we do not focus on simply on the cons of this type of organizing people, I think the seniors would always say that we are disorganized, I wouldn't say that we are just differently organized, you know, and and there is a centralized networks, there is the, the other type is a decentralized network, but social movements is a third kind, you know, which is a distributed move, you know, network, which means that not, you know, you might not be connected to everyone, but you're connected to one or a few that is connected to the other parts of the network, you know, so which is quite distinct with the two other forms of you know, networks and that I think the experimentation on what it is it draws from, you know, the occupy the Wall Street organizing occupy we've occupied demonstrations and organizing the wave of the Arab Spring organizing, so, that that and, and that is a dynamics as well you know, the space the platform, you know, the space and you know, and culture. So, since social media is dispersed, you know, and of course, it starts with a quite a distributed movement and it will remain to be a distributed, you know, movement in the waves of in the first week of the coup there were organic popping up over the different military alliances Twitter accounts, many of them are inactive right now, but that is also you know, that that is simply just how movements are you know, you you you you just contribute with what you what you can and try to connect and so many of us are connected as well to some of the people or team behind those, you know, those accounts, there's other chat groups as well around that the milky lions friends with me and my remains to be the most active right now. And so by the fact that it becomes the, you know, the backstage, but it doesn't have it's not the center of the middle to Alliance you know, at some point it will be an You know, and another one, but I think we are, I think, just driven by, I think, the the same intent of pooling the resources and power that we have, so that we could, you know, respond to the ongoing needs of the of the time. So I think that's what's, you know, what's the same building on what the solidarity that was built before, and you're being supported as well, by many of our organizations in the past some of the platforms, there are multi Alliance speakers that we would we would introduce to, you know, some of these big NGO, NGO regional NGO spaces that we would would speak, but the same time, we know our, our strength as well. And it has something to do with, you know, with the ability to change, you know, narratives and norms, first in the digital space, but how we carry that as well to the offline spaces through our direct options, and mobilizations.
Host 1:11:04
Another thing I'm wondering about what that in terms of the space that you occupy, and we I refer to this before we started the interview, and I think this is an important topic to get your comments on air about as well as that you're you're in this interesting space where on one hand, you have these, these some measure of tyrannical and dictator type totalitarian governments that are in regimes that are across Southeast Asia, that you've heard this rhetoric for some number of years that criticizing things like democracy, human rights, and and these concepts is kind of Western concepts that don't really belong in agent systems. And that might be good for a Western system. But in an Asian system, we have a different way to proceed. And then yet, on the other side, you also have these longtime Western scholars and human rights activists and leaders and such that, that, as you have said, they've many of them have given you your start, they've trained you I was you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, standing on the shoulders of giants, that's kind of what you're able to do, you're able to capitalize on the progress and the activism they've done to be able to not have to reinvent the wheel. But at the same time, I have heard from I have heard complaints or concerns from Asian activists that sometimes Western Westerners that are more based in their home countries and have their own sense of concepts will be will will talk a little more than they listen, and they will. And I don't want to generalize or characterize everyone, because obviously, there are many exceptions to this, and many wonderful Western activists and academics and journalists that are very much trying to understand the local concept, and then know how their theory and their background fits into it. But there is an example of those that are more trying to impose their own paradigms and perspectives into Asian contexts that don't really fit so well. And so you're sandwiched between, you know, the the more patriarchal and traditional forces that are telling you these concepts don't belong at all and these, and some of these Western leaders and academics and activists trying to also get keep and impose their views from their place. And you're, and you're carving out the center, where you're, in some ways, I imagine you're kind of pushing back against both of these views. So how would you describe the space you're trying to occupy and the conversations you're trying to have for both of these arguments?
Marc Batac 1:13:32
I think they're the two things that I want to say about this. The first one is, you wouldn't really feel a sandwich if you have strong anchors. And that's why I think, the difference the other difference of I think, this kind of solidarity building that's happening right now, which is quite, quite different, I think, with the the recent mean 2000s 2010. So, you know, of Solidarity was this is truly trans local, we are organizers as well of struggles, in the grassroots in, in where we where we are, you know, I noticed that I think we did quite a departure of the solidarity probably that happened before, before the 90s is, when the professionalization of NGOs happened, many of the solidarity, that regional solidarity that happened became NGO to NGO transaction. And therefore, the solidarity is you know, it's it's quite rigid, mechanical. There's a lot of course, you know, it's not the fault of these NGOs. It's really just how the NGO space you know, was was formed in you know, because of many, many, many forces and therefore, you know, there is some siloing that these are the regional NGOs that are working in regional spaces, and then we have the grassroots local NGOs do not have much resources. Because again, because of competition with a the chatter, but But for us, the strength of the nuclear lions, and the new form of solidarity that we are trying to experiment on as most of us, if not all of us are active in you know, in our own spaces, I am activate the milky lions. But when before I became an even when I, I said yes to, you know, to, to helping anchor facilitate, and we the the, the backstage of the Alliance, the multi line spreads of Myanmar is I, I've been active in in the mobilizations and organizing around the, you know, against the precedent that there is policies of historical revision is the return of, you know, of militaries, and autocratic policies, so, and many of them as well, is there. So, I think, the other thing is, rather than being sandwich is how do we now based on our respective So, which means our analysis is based on our, you know, ongoing material analysis of what's happening in, you know, in, you know, in where we come from, it's not something that was imposed by, by Western media, or by Western based, you know, NGOs, we would engage them. But at the same time, we would disagree when we think that their perspective on what's happening here in Southeast Asia and East Asia is centered again on Eurocentric analysis, for example, is the how, how does the military alliance position it's between the US and China. And for us, you know, we are conscious of this, you know, of the geo, the the politics of this, but we do not want to be the puppets to, to this both imperial powers, and that's why when, when it comes to issues, we would call out, and we will take possession or not based on those two camps, because those two columns, you know, do not exist as our camp as you know, the liberation of our peoples here and the solidarity and linking of, of our struggles here in the region. So for example, we spoken on the issues of the Eagles, and the issue of Tibet, on the issue of the bullying of Beijing, when it comes to the territorial disputes here in South China Sea, West Philippine Sea, but at the same time, we've also spoken up against, you know, the hypocrisy of Western powers and the United States when it comes to the issue of Palestine. So we've, we've had internal discussions as well, using our experience, our lenses, how does this issues relate to us? You know, rather than using, you know, the, what was being, you know, what was being forced as meanings on what the military alliance is? Why don't we much of our that's why we have to do work hard in regularizing, our check ins and meetings and discussions because that's when, you know, we, if we do not work harder, that's what I would, I would I would tell peers, that our statements that we would usually it seems like we would usually just release multiple statements here and there, but the point of those joint statements is not primarily on you know, for you know, for a policy change, it would be useful for that, of course, and in awareness, but primarily, we are making joint statements as you know, as Miles markers for what is the consensus so far within the group, because if we are not in intentional in defining what melty Alliance stands for all other forces will define it for us, they are already doing that, you know, for us, you know, in the early days and up until now they are doing that that's why no some there's always imputation of being net funded. So, even if we are primarily volunteer resource, the resources that we could only gather because we are an organization so we pull resources, we fundraise for, you know, out of our own pockets in our communities, the imputation of color being color revolutions, but again, that imputation as well is based on a Eurocentric you know that The only legitimate the only battle primary battle and the only battle that is, you know, that is happening right now is, you know, from the point of view again or when new cold war, but but our lens is, you know is based on what is our analysis here and you know, in in you know, so we we have a sneaky Alliance, that is what we we are doing more intentionally we have to define what we stand for analyze what's happening in the world, what's happening in Palestine, what's happening in Ukraine, what's happening in you know, and how does that relate? And that's why in our statements, it would refer to, you know, how that speaks, you know, to our own experience of militarism, militarized police, you know, state violence, you know, hitting the country, what are the links of, you know, those forces with what's happening here, and how authoritarians in our own military and our police are being transferred, we're being propped up here in the region.
Host 1:21:05
And I want to get back to the role that you've done on Myanmar, because Myanmar has played again, has played this real catalyst in a in the trajectory or the pivot of as the military alliance has gone along. And I know that here in the Philippines, actually, physically, as well as the online spaces, virtually, you have personally been involved in many things these last three and a half years. So I wonder if you can highlight some of the things that come to mind that you'd like to share in your advocacy and action towards Myanmar since the 2021 coup.
Marc Batac 1:21:41
Much of it is sometimes you know, I It's a tension for me a contradiction, I think, oh, feeling for me, because I think much of the work that we do is truly the back, you know, backstage. And it is something that at some point, you know, sometimes it's not worth seems not worth seeing. But it's but I would also enjoy it at some points, I would have to hold back on sharing what those are, because that has some security Churcher impact on not only my peers, but also our tactics and strategy. But there's also I think what I would also want to emphasize is the ability to wage big public events, digital digital campaigns is built on, you know, the work that's done silently in the background. And, and that is the motivation, I think, why we put our, our hearts in, you know, in, in continuing this the, you know, the the platform through the past three years, because for us in that in when the coup happened, there was a feeling of frustration that many of and I speak of that with kindness as well, that many of our regional organizations that, you know, that have access resources, through the years that work in human rights and democracy in the region, we're, again, going back to us organizers, on the front lines for where are we going and stuff, you know, because they don't, they are so detached to, you know, to the networks and relationships and communities on the ground, it's organizing on the ground. And so that I think affirms that we haven't done our our work. That's why, you know, it's like we have to save something so that, you know, so that we could take out, you know, something at some end, but so much of the work that's been done in the past three years is I think, you know, mutual aid. Up until now we we continue to do resource from ourselves some sort of security and emergency response when our Myanmar friends, our needs. So some peers continue to, you know, for example, with the conscription law, some would require I think relocation. And so that's when we would mobilize resources for to link them up and to find for us, ways for them to be relocated. In in the first three, we've done a lot of mobilizations as well. Right now, I think that the major because most of the mobilizations and campaigns that are being supported by the McLarens principal, Myanmar, are primarily led by the members themselves. So we are just there as support so for example, a blood money campaign we've been supporting Blood Money campaigns in the calls for you know, the, the campaigns around Mogi the Myanmar oil and gas enterprises and now the evasion. assumptions on a Bayesian view will be also supporting linking some organised organizations that are working on defections to other organizations to learn more about from, from South Korea, from Israel, Ellen's well on learnings on defections and conscientious objections, because that is a big issue in how to do that, how do you build a support system for those who defected, and those the families of those who defected. So so there are those that, that we've been doing, aside from those are, I think the two things right now that, you know, that that we've been doing on Myanmar early on, we've been also have some links and discussions with the N, ug, they reached out to us for support, but we've also been clear, you know, on, you know, on that we use that opportunity as well to, you know, to push, and to make it clear to the national unity government that when it comes to the issue, we of course, we are in full support of, you know, of the spring revolution in the civil disobedience movement. But But, but we think as well, we've been upfront with them as well, that, you know, for a truly, we could, the energy and durability could win the I think I could win the war, but it's also important to in the piece, that means that I'm building a truly inclusive federal democratic society and, you know, government. So that means that how does the ethnic minorities figure in and how could they really be senator from the issues of many ethnic minorities within how they would they would proceed, so, that that would not affect but at the same time would be an important thing for us to do let them know if they are asking for the Alliance support on you know, on the providing legitimacy to the N ug rather than, you know, the junta that is, you know, that is not a, you know, that that is not to say that it's a condition reward, because they are, you know, that that is what the elections, and that's the voice of the people, but we also have to be candid with them that if you know that, that that to check on each other that we are we are moving towards the same path. In we've shifted a little bit in in some pockets of the of our collective, the Milky lions, for instance, Myanmar has been continuing, but right now, we set up a a platform facility called the wave project. So, because the multi Alliance friends of Myanmar, and the Nokia Alliance, of course, would be quite reactive, you know, how do we now build the space for us to become more strategic, there are meta needs, for example, that you know, that a dispersed movement could not be able to, you know, do to respond to and address and so we need a more structured system where we could address you know, psychosocial needs, emergency protection, regular regional meetings. But we also wanted to experiment that, you know, it cannot, we cannot institutionalize Coachella, and it's not ours, to institutionalize it, even for our node. We don't want to do that. But rather, why don't we just create a pocket that now we could, you know, we could continue to raise resources that could support now some of the needs of the network, but not only of the military, like those who call themselves military alliances, but also youth organizations and organizations that want to do translocal solidarity initiatives. So we, we are in a 24 month experiment of trying to, you know, to experiment through a social design. So on resourcing, we are not fun. We are funders, we are a community, resourcing resourcing each other, so we're pulling some, some resources to, you know, to support some of the experimentations of activists that you know, that they want to work together. The point is, that's why it's called the wave project. It's, you know, it's a wave, it's an ebb and flows. It has something to do with, you know, I'm using recognizing the strengths, not only of the, the flow, but also of the EM. Oh, we are melting alliance is currently in the And we know that, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing that shouldn't be happening, the movement still is alive. It's a question of what does the movement and its collectives do during the day. And during the ebb, that's when you prepare. And that's when you strengthen your relationship, the same thing that we've learned in, you know, in what, what allowed for multi lines friends of Myanmar to happen now, do we wait for that, you know, that which is beyond our control. So that's when many of our friends will be organising the past two, three years have, of course, faced a lot of trauma. And so how could we do that some of them would require emergency support, we have to continue building our analysis, what will what is our analysis now moving moving forward. So we built the this specific Goldwave project, to be able to resource some of those initiatives. So we had our first meeting a pocket of us met last year, to dream together and identify our pockets or pods of experiments, that we will, you know, that people are interested in curious to work together, part of that is building the muscle, you know, like the muscle, you have constant solidarity for me, it's, you know, it's a muscle, you have to constantly do it, the only way that you could, you could build it is through action. And that's why, you know, it was important that, you know, that, that we find and build resources within the community to constantly do that, however, small, smaller tests. So, right now, we've been working with different members on different issues. They are working together on some initiatives, across countries, on issues around you know, Thai, and Myanmar Eve exchanges around mental health and also in building a support system. Some others are doing, you know, some podcasts on, on what is the story of women and feminists, not the Alliance activists, because usually, you know, they in we also want to envision we are, we, that's the other thing about the new way of organizing, it's a prefigurative, you know, organizing we, we do not wait for the future society to come and be built, we have to apply those, you know, and then that means as well, what does this feminism and you know, clearness looked like in how we do things, so, so some of us are working on that. So, we have not publicly launch any of this, because, again, it's like, you know, a cocoon. But eventually, I think, in you know, in a month or so, I think we would be launching the website as well. And by we I am not saying that I am again, I am, I am not the grand Weaver of this, these are my peers who are, you know, doing their own pockets as well, of work. But it's important, I think, you to share a little bit of this, I think, to speak right now, because people might think that the alliance is dead, or that the movement, you know, so that the movement is dead. We are in an Abbott's very much alive, you know, and as the nuclear alliance is any movement, whether it's a spring revolution, or whether it's the fight for democracy here at home in the Philippines, the movement remains to be alive, even at the end of the struggle. It's just really figuring out I think, what can we do during the app so that by the time the flow happens, we are in the best position to grab that opportunity. And really, you know, respond quickly and steer the wheel of, you know, change.
Host 1:34:08
And in terms of your activism, about Myanmar, specifically here in the Philippines, there have have Have you organized or been a part of physical events? Have there actually been protests or vigils? Or can you can you share what what's taken place actually, physically in the Philippines and since the sun?
Marc Batac 1:34:24
Yeah, they're the ones that I've been. The initiatives for international dialogue is anchoring the Burma solidarity Philippine network, so it's a group of Philippine based organizations that have either in the past or in the recent years, how wanted to work on on solidarity for Myanmar, and also exploring how we could engage our own government, the Philippines to take better position, in support for you know, for, for For Myanmar, and you know, the civil disobedience movement we've done. We've just recently last week they were done the paper plates Campaign in support for in support of the call of blood money campaign and Myanmar friends for solidarity on the campaign for calling for sanctions against invasion fuel. Because right now with the current tactics of the junta now that they are losing in the ground wars, they are shifting to aerial bombings in their tactics. And it's a question of how do we now restrict the ability of the military to arrange this kind of, you know, of its military war. And quite key to that is the invasion view? Well, if they cannot fly that they could not be as, as among our Myanmar friends would would say? We we've also in in in the past months as well, we've done those mobilizations during key events to continue into keeping the awareness not only in here in the Philippines, but also regionally so so that it could constantly be recovered. That is not simply an issue of Myanmar, but is an issue of Southeast Asia, we call some mobilizations as well, calling for ASEAN to shift away from its five point consensus, there is a massive failure. But at the same time, it's also again, it's always speaks of, you know, duality, I think of or a symmetry on how the ASEAN would intervene, they would allow discussions are precedence of the military junta within some spaces, but would not really engage with with the national unity, government and other actors. There are, we've just had some, some Filipino filmmakers have also did last month, a film showing of documentaries, from the civil disobedience made during the revolution, and scream that in the university, the reverse massive showing in the University of the Philippines. There were, you know, there were two films, or at least series of films that were in there. And that was, you know, important to keep the the, the attention and awareness and deepen that awareness among among Filipino and Filipino Youth and Students. So, yeah, those are just a few stuff that's happening here. But but some peers as well, in the military alliance have also been doing their own campaigns, sometimes back to back or, you know, alongside parallel, for example, there were protests as well in Thailand where you know, where they would use the milk tea as well, to, you know, to in front of the Myanmar, embassy, and would you submit the free milk tea for people to, you know, to, to stop and have a discussion on what's happening in Myanmar, there are other art events as well, during Ethik V. The anniversary in February, or commemoration in February in Chiang Mai, as well. So some of the some of them are also within, you know, within within hours, when we would usually coordinate messages, there's also quite a number of mobilizations and also sit ins as well in Taiwan. So far, I think it's in Taiwan, and Thailand, and to some extent, the Philippines that that we remain most active. It's quite difficult to do a lot in Hong Kong, given the situation there. Yeah. So. But yeah, given that, you know, that the resources that required an attention as well, you know, we try to, you know, to, to make do with what, what, what we have and become strategic on, you know, on just keeping the attention and deepening you know, the, the awareness within our respective countries and yeah, that's, that's some of the things that, you know, public events that we we've been doing.
Host 1:39:30
That's great. And can you share, in which ways the Philippines as the Philippine Government, the Philippine representative and ECN, or other kind of top leaders over representatives, un etc. Where, how would you characterize their response since the coup we know that the Myanmar regime is craving legitimacy and wanting to be seen as and there's, there's all these games that have been playing since in terms of how they're recognized are not recognized or kind of, you know, a allowed to sit even just sit in a room or whatnot and how the different different countries and representatives have accommodated them or pushed back or or been cowardly in some cases, but how would you characterize the Philippine government and representatives and authorities, how how they've responded to, to the coup and their relation with the regime and or the energy.
Marc Batac 1:40:30
Unfortunately, the position of the Philippines is quite, you know, disappointing for and would usually take, you know, the same fence sitter approach of the ASEAN, which I it's actually been sitting, when it's actually taking a side, which means that allowing the, you know, the military junta to continue, I think when it's atrocities, so you would, you would the statements of the Philippine government in the past three years has always been about, you know, that encouraging dialogue among different angers, right. I mean, why don't you call out for for, you know, for, because it's, it's never seen as it was there will never serve us and will not be serious in or having, you know, that dialogue, not, when, you know, it, it not in this con, you know, in this context, so calling for, for for, for for for dialogues, it's likewise washing, I think, what is the, you know, you know, what, what was happening, so, it's still within the, you know, within the, the the same positioning of ASEAN, of trying to say something, but actually not wanting to, you know, to do something, and allowing it, so, and it's, it's unfortunate for the Philippines, when it's one of usually the three countries that, you know, out of the member states of ASEAN, the ones that have most, I think vishawn really historically, on how to strengthen, they would say, ASEAN Central, you know, SM centricity, you know, it, which means that this is our issue, therefore, ASEAN should make a more decisive role in into it. It's the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia. But then the Philippines, it's already quite disappointing, I think, where were the other members, the two are, but at least they to some extent, they are also, you know, speaking more, but between the three of Philippines as you know, is is the most silent of this or when it speaks, it really does not have any substance or any, any sharpness in into it. So that is also why the word muscularity partnership has been gathering even more closer, discussing even more closer to sizing, closer in the past weeks, because we have to do more in pressuring and, you know, our our government to, to speak more, there are a few allies in Congress. I think that, you know, that have spoken up. But again, this these are our traditional allies already in the past, but in general, the Congress has not, you know, in the parliament has Congress has not really spoken to us as as as as itself. So the executive in the in the legislature has, you know, has relatively been silent on this. So, yeah, so, when we will, we will do better. And to, to at least gain more ground here. So, yeah, we expect I think, more more actions from from the Philippines, Philippine groups moving moving forward.
Host 1:44:00
So, I thank you so much for all the time and taking to have this conversation. I'd like to end this discussion on more of a personal note that related to your own personal connection to Myanmar, the Burmese people, I know that you've hosted and met Burmese friends here and met them in other places. And in third countries, as well as you reference going to Yangon several times, meaning the ADA generation and so you have experiences of being in Myanmar. So I wonder if you could just share a personal story of something about that that has been that that has attracted you or that stands out in your mind of Burmese culture Burmese friends, even Burmese food or art since you have an art background, just something that that illustrates this personal connection between the cultures and you individually with the country and people that would stand out and might be interesting to share here.
Marc Batac 1:44:52
I don't know if it's, you know, it's it's interesting, but I think I think in the several years that I come back and forth from the Philippines, in Myanmar, I think, what, what what really just stuck with me is whether it's activist, peer, or other, you know, it's, it's our taxi driver, I think there is just, there's just deep honesty, and, and deep, you know, friendship and warmth, that you know that they always show you that candidness really, that you know that, you know, that they, they they really mean whether they see really as you know, as, as a sibling. Some, it's easy to, I think connect with them, they really would go out of their way to, to show you around, as I said, I only the activist from from that, that I met in the protests here in the Philippines, I only met him once, but when, when I when when he knew that I was going, he did range I think would drive me around as well. To, to meet with other activists, and sometimes again, when during work hour, hour drive, our taxi driver would just you know, would go in a way to even show us around in you know, in, in, in in Yangon and where where we need to do to eat and stuff. So it's, it's, it's, it's a accumulation of I think those small, small things, small things that I think are in order for the fundamental, for me, as you know, as an activist, it's the big words they think, are good, they think, you know, as anchors, as I told you as when I studied political theory and political philosophy in university, but it is in that everyday small things that, you know, that you could, that, that really anchors and grounds all of that. So I could, you know, solidarity as a word is such a big thing. But I think solidarity I think, I do not measure solidarity in you know, in the big protests, that is important for you know, collective action, but, but for me, the most fundamental meanings and ways that we, I see, and, and sweet art is important to me, and I could see solidarity is in a ways that, you know, we show up with with each other. I quite remember. And I think this the final thing that, you know, in the last, in the, in that first call that I had with me and my friends, when they asked for, for solidarity, and for that emergency call, it was quite an emotional time for for a lot of tears, and then we're writing. And, and I knew that, you know, that, that, that kind of vulnerability. It's not usually something that you know, as, as activists, we would usually show especially someone who is not from, you know, from from, from your country, but, but the vulnerability to show that to appear that, you know, how, how massively painful but the same time that at the same time, even if it's painful, that they have not lost the ability to dream and to aspire, when they ask, you know, even if they were crying when, when somebody I think that was the start of that violence during the first week. They still they're asking us, you know, still looking at us simply about Myanmar, but also situating me in our in the broader collective experience that we have in the region, that mark, there is something that's wrong. That's something broken with with this system. It's Myanmar now. But tomorrow, you know, it will be Hong Kong, in the Philippines. And that's why, you know, we have to do better.
Host 1:49:38
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