Transcript: Episode #264: The Cure Lies Within

Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.

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Host 0:14

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Brad 1:53

And welcome back, my guest today is going to be speaking on medical care, specifically, indigenous medicine from the Korean population predominantly within Thailand. And she's actually written a thesis on this on this fascinating topic, the intersection of different types of medical care, particularly for women. So, I'm sure this is going to be a very involved interview, I'm sure it's going to get a little bit technical. But as is always the case where we're very keen to learn about things that we don't necessarily think about in our everyday lives. So Shalini, I'd like to thank you very much for taking the time to speak to us. And I'd like to give you the chance to introduce yourself and your background for our listeners.

Shalini Sri Perumal 2:34

Yes, thank you for having me on the podcast. And the opportunity to speak a little bit more about my work. Just to begin my background. Well, I'm Well I'm originally from India, this is more personal, but I'm originally from India. But I grew up in parts of Africa and Asia as a child, including in Japan and Egypt. And I studied in the US for my bachelor's and my master's. And it was during my master's that I wrote a thesis on the situation on the Thai Burma border, specifically reproductive health services for Burmese migrant woman living in Thailand. And that that thesis was basically it came about because I worked in Thailand, in May, South Thailand on the Thai Burma border with Maytag clinic, which is an organization that is a charity hospital, essentially, that provides health care services to prevent migrants and refugees living on the border of Burma with Thailand. And so basically, that's a general background and how I got into Burma as a general, professional background. And I also I'm currently based in India, I work with ActionAid, India at the moment, I am working in communications and fundraising. And that's been my general background. For the past 10 to 12 years, I would say. I went to school in New York, I studied at the City University of New York, which is where I did my master's, I completed it very recently, about six months ago. So I'm excited about that. Um, but yeah, thank you for having me on the show. And I'm looking forward to speaking more about indigenous care and medicine community based health care services for migrant woman. So yeah, thank you so much.

Brad 4:22

Alright, so let's, let's jump into it. Because there's, there's obviously quite a lot. And I think, you know, we're obviously talking about a very technical subject, but I think, you know, I think we can jump a little bit into the into the deep end our audiences reasonably on the level and an interested in the in the technicalities. So let's start with what so you were working at the Mayo Clinic? Yes. In in Thailand. So you're, what we say the patients, were you predominantly working with Korean patients, or was it a sort of mix of of local Thai and various types of Myanmar.

Shalini Sri Perumal 5:03

Right, right. Well, Mehta clinic, it's essentially a healthcare services that it provides health care services, specifically to current and other ethnic minorities from Burma, who live in Thailand. So migrant, migrant ethnic, migrant communities. So not Thai, not no Thai patients come in. It's serving refugee and migrant populations. And I worked there. I started working there in 2016 for about two years. And I worked in the fundraising department, so I didn't really interact as much with patients specifically. So I was predominantly involved in don't writing donor proposals and grant proposals, but I was working within the hospitals. So I was still within the environment. And otherwise might have clinic just to provide a little background to the listeners might have clinic. It basically was it started it was started by Dr. Cynthia Mong, who is a Korean refugee living in Thailand. And it started in the 19, late 1980s. From with the student uprising in 1988, in Burma, when Dr. Cynthia mom, she had to leave Burma flee from Burma. And she ended up in Thailand after traversing through the jungles of southeastern southeastern Myanmar. And yeah, she ended up in Burma, began this clinic with just a few supplies, just a few patients. And it's grown significantly since then. It has about 100 and 1000 patients per year. And it serves about 400,000 migrants living in may stop and bordering regions. So yeah, that's a general background and may tell connected provide a variety of services. They provide help both inpatient and outpatient services, including dental services, reproductive health services, which is what I'm mostly focused on, they provide childcare services, and they also provide child support and education services, which kind of complement the health care services that they that they offer. So yeah, it's quite a comprehensive and very unique setting to work in, because it's, I believe one of the only refugee run charity organizations in the world is completely all the staff are refugees themselves or my for migrant workers themselves. And it's a very unique setting to work. And I feel very blessed to have worked there for sure.

Brad 7:32

Yeah. I mean, that's actually incredible. I mean, we could probably do an entire episode just on this clinic. Yeah. That's, that's a good. So I just want to clarify, do you say that you have 100,000 patients per year? per year?

Shalini Sri Perumal 7:44

Yes. Who come to the clinic?

Brad 7:47

That's, yeah, that's a lot. Yeah.

Shalini Sri Perumal 7:50

They're one of the biggest health care providers in the slots for migrants. So yeah, that's significant.

Brad 7:57

I mean, that averages out to about 300 a day. So what are we what are we talking here when you when you say Muay Thai clinic, is this I'm trying to imagine in my head, are we talking about a single giant hospital? Or are we talking about a complex of different centers spread across an area?

Shalini Sri Perumal 8:14

It's one hospital it was originally in. It was a witch, it moved actually locations within Minnesota itself. So it's actually gotten bigger since I was there. But it's one hospital with all the different departments within the hospital providing dental services, reproductive services, prosthetics, there's just so a variety of services provided and it's within one location though there's also a community backpacker health worker team, we have partnerships with different organizations as well. So Mehta clinic has a partnership with backpacker health worker team, which essentially is an organization that provides health care services in a mobile manner by going into say, southeastern Myanmar to current state into the forests and directly providing health care services, including reproductive health services to refugees fleeing on migrants fleeing from current state and the conflict there. So that's more of a mobile health backpack. A health worker team is more mobile, but we do have partnerships, and that's included within this number, just to clarify. But yeah, it's quite significant. It's a very well known clinic for the current population and really a lot of ethnic migrant populations living on the border region there. It's a very well known clinic and has been fantastic work. I believe, I'm really blessed.

Brad 9:39

If you have a small clinic that you set up in, in, you know, your house or something along this line like that, you know, you can rent a house. That makes sense, but you're talking about a very large facility like did it made to help build this facility or did it already exist? Did they purchase it off the Thai government? I'm just fascinating to know how you get to that size, right?

Shalini Sri Perumal 10:01

So refugee organization, right, right. Well, Dr. Cynthia Hmong, it began in in a one room. House, you could say I guess it was just one room and it had a few utensils. They weren't even using sanitized hospital gear. It was really just kind of whatever was in their hands. Dr. Cynthia mom was using utensils, kitchen utensils to partake in like, operations and things like that. So it began very small in 1988. And well, it kind of grew over time by getting attention from funding agencies across both internationally and locally, because it was such a unique setting, and it was providing very essential services to a very vulnerable community on the border region. So it did grow. It took time, but it did grow over the years. It wasn't something that happened instantly. It took time over the years, but it's grown significantly since then. It's been more than 30 years, right, since the organization has been operating. So um, yeah. And the clinic is named after Mehta River, which basically marks the border between the MMR and Thailand and basically Dr. Cynthia, she really recognize the critical need for health care in the border region. And she really dedicated herself to providing this comprehensive care. And so And what's interesting about Mehta clinic is that the health and administrative teams, they may basically consist of local community health workers and managers. So everyone is local and local in the sense of like, Karan, so, um, yeah, it's very community owned a very sustainable, sustainable management style. And in terms of reproductive care, I just wanted to just provide some numbers because this is an area that's really I'm passionate about reproductive health. MTC has made significant contributions to reproductive health. For example, over the years they've offered about 135,000, antenatal care consultations, more than 75,000 family planning, consultations, 34,000 deliveries, and this is all since 2007. So if you this is not even from the when it began. So this is only since 2007. So it's one of the large region's largest provider of reproductive health services for migrants, refugees and even displaced populations. A lot of displaced populations travel across Southeast Myanmar and come to MTC because it's really the only so healthcare service they can access. Right. So it's really provides a lot of hope for women and men as well, and children facing challenges and of displacement and like limited access to health care. So yeah, it's an amazing place. Really. Yeah.

Brad 12:50

So the important question is, do you do you charge for the services? How does that work?

Shalini Sri Perumal 12:55

No, it's completely free. It's it we don't charge for the services. MTC does not charge.

Brad 13:02

Wow. So if somebody comes to you with, you know, they like a pregnant woman comes to you, she she wants that antenatal care or somebody comes to you with trauma, like you know, physical trauma or somebody comes to you for whatever, all of that is free. All of that is free.

Shalini Sri Perumal 13:20

Yeah, it's all free. The what's provided is very comprehensive, like so as you were mentioning, if a pregnant woman comes there's antenatal care, regular checkups, ultrasounds, monitoring for high risk pregnancies, even abortion services, which is illegal in Thailand is provided by Mehta clinic. And so yeah, it really is a nice place for like maternal health and safer deliveries, their skilled birth attendants. Yeah, so a quite comprehensive variety of services.

Brad 13:49

I mean, that's actually incredible. Like, you know, initially when you when you hear like, something like a clinic, and you say, Oh, this is a medical clinic, that's that's run by refugees, for refugees, the community, you think of something much smaller in scope, but you're offering the offering surfaces and you're offering them for free, that even you know, even in more developed countries, you might not have ready access to or they might not be packaged together in in one convenient place where you where you can get there. So it's a very holistic approach.

Shalini Sri Perumal 14:25

It is a very holistic approach. And yeah, it's pretty amazing that they're able to do that. And it really I mean, it depends on funding, of course, Mehta clinic has had periods where funding was not the best and so they had to cut back on the services they were able to provide. And, for example, when Aung San su chi in the National League of democracy was elected, there was a general conventional wisdom among donors that Well, now that there's democracy in fermo There's not a there's not a need for providing access to health care services on border regions, because a lot of migrant populations can go back to Burma and access services there because it's safer there. But that's not that was not necessarily the case. The security risks and all of the funding was cut back. And so they had to cut back on the amount of services that they could provide during that period. But yes, overall, it's pretty amazing that they're able to provide free services to migrant populations, refugee populations, um, comprehensive services, holistic services, they also provide family planning, services, contraception, so it's, it's pretty amazing. Yeah.

Brad 15:38

And I mean, let's, let's, let's talk about this other element because you're, before we even move into the ethnic, also the indigenous health, like the other thing I wanted to touch on was the backpacker health care. Right? And I know you mentioned in the past, so can you explain that to like, is that? Are you sending medical teams bushwhacking through the jungle to, to remote locations to meet people who need a doctor? Right?

Shalini Sri Perumal 16:04

Well, that kind of sums it up. Um, well, I can I can mention that. Well, basically, how it began was backpacker helped Booker T team, sorry, I began as a community based health care initiative. And basically, they originated in the early 1980s, when there were a lot of backpacker tourists in Thailand. And these tourists then began to see how there was a lot of health care disparities experienced by Burmese refugees living in Thailand. And so they offered to volunteer informally, to provide medical services and assistance to refugees, and in the jungles, and kind of how you describe that, basically. And over time, this kind of grassroots effort evolved into something a little bit more structured and organized. And they, they they kind of follow a very community based approach. And this is actually what I wrote about in my thesis about how community based health care services is kind of the way to go when it comes to effective, providing effective access to services for migrant woman, kind of this kind of stuff, they recognize, you know, the importance of community participation, local knowledge, cultural sensitivity, they offer services in multiple languages, despite being in the backpacker, in a backpack area in the fields going through the jungles, you describe that soil. And yeah, they really address the specific needs of Burmese migrants and refugees. It's not easy, obviously, they face a lot of setbacks. But um, it's needed, right? Because that's a very vulnerable community living in those jungle areas, and they need health care services and are not able to access it.

Brad 17:46

So yeah, I'm just I'm floored by the fact that this is a thing that can be provided, like the idea of not just accessing medicine or sending medical aid remotely, but sending medical aid with diverse language and cultural perspectives into these these high vulnerability areas. The The other question I have is, does anyone like you may have touched on this already. But does anyone cross back into current state and offer services in the conflict zones as well? Or is that outside the remit?

Shalini Sri Perumal 18:20

I think that would be outside Well, outside of outside of it wouldn't be it would be mostly in the jungle areas, not so much current state itself. And they they don't just offer medicine, medicine services, they also offer like pure education workshops, and group discussions to raise awareness about health concerns, like family planning and maternal care. So it's pretty diverse what they do. And yeah, they play really a huge role in facilitating access to health care services. And it's yeah, I'm also I was very flawed. When I first came to meet up clinic I was also like, really floored by how how they're able to do this, right. And obviously, there's so much security concerns, like, not just for the migrants living in the border, but the healthcare workers, right. So the fact that I was just like, thinking, like, I don't know if I will ever be able to do that and put my life at risk. But like the fact that these healthcare workers are doing some really selfless work and are able to really, really provide for that services to these very vulnerable communities. I mean, yeah, that's, I found it. I found it just mind blowing. Yeah.

Brad 19:36

I mean, that's it. Yeah, it is. It is actually difficult for me to process that something like this can exist. Especially given that we're dealing with remote areas, we're dealing with very vulnerable communities, we're often often dealing sort of on the gray area, as far as the type system is concerned. And this is an important contextual question. How does The Thai government and the Thai medical infrastructure relate to the refugee population in Thailand. How do they relate to them? Like do they do they offer them services? Do they have access to everything Thai citizens have?

Shalini Sri Perumal 20:15

No, they don't, they don't have access some migrant populations, but ethnic Burmese migrant populations don't have access to what Thai citizens have because they don't have documentation. So, um, well, Thailand has, even though like Thailand has has long been a destination for Burmese refugees and migrants because it's close to Burma. And it's relatively stable economically. Um, so there are many Burmese seeking better livelihoods and safety in Thailand. But there are a lot of challenges the tiger government basically doesn't provide recognition for. Well, they don't really provide health care services to migrants who don't have documentation. So that's a policy that they have. But to curb this, there was to curb this they have tried to provide stay and work permits to to refugees and migrants to temporary stay and work permits so that they can allow them some degree of legal status and employment opportunities. But when it comes to healthcare services, it's a little bit more complicated. What's interesting is that Thailand also is a non signatory to the 1951 refugee convention. So they, they don't recognize that convention, but they do operate on the principle of non refoulement, which basically is that they are obligated to safeguard the rights and well beings of those fleeing persecution. And they can't, they can't deport them back to say Burma, because if they're if they are facing security issues, so at least there's that but in terms of healthcare services, unless there is a partnership like Mehta clinic has a partnership with Mesa hospital. Mesa Hospital is a Thai Hospital in Mesa, Thailand. And through this partnership, even those migrants who don't have documentation can access services through referral. So if Mehta clinic does not have certain medicine or certain services available for patients, then they refer those migrant patients to Mesa, Mesa hospital and Mesa hospital through this agreement, provide services no questions asked no documentation necessary. But other than that, it's it's difficult. And a lot of migrant populations, even if they were somehow to have documentation and go to a Thai hospital, they face a lot of problems, right, because of language issues, cultural differences. They don't feel comfortable being in a Thai hospital because of the legal repercussions that they might face because they don't have all the documentation that they need, or they're living, quote, unquote, illegally in Thailand. So there's a lot of fear. So they definitely feel safer with community based and Burmese indigenous community based healthcare services. So yeah.

Brad 23:06

And even in addition to that, I mean, you you mentioned previously that, that you provide abortion services, which I mean, my understanding is they were they were relatively recently legalized in Thailand, but they were very difficult, functionally to access. So even if they have the documentation, they might still prefer to go to to the Maytag clinic, because you just provide services that standard Thai institutions might not provide.

Shalini Sri Perumal 23:32

Right, exactly. It's interesting, I wanted to just share a story about the illegality of abortion services in Thailand, at least when I was working in Thailand in 2016. I had a colleague from my top connect, she's current, she's migrants and she had she had to go through an abortion. She got pregnant and she didn't want the baby. So she decided the fetus, sorry. And she so she decided to have an abortion, but she was unable to access Thai services because it was technically illegal in Thailand. And she was also afraid to access even these under unsafe abortion services provided by Thai doctors. So what happened was essentially, she decided she sought out a Korean doctor who was providing on underground abortion services. He was technically not even recognized within Thailand. So he was in quote, unquote, again, illegal doctor working in Thailand on an illegal issue of abortion. And she actually she asked me to accompany her to this current doctor to get these abortion services because she was afraid that he would deny the services and basically there's so much stigma associated with unsafe sex and not not using contraception among the current community, especially when you're so young, that she was afraid he would deny those services but she said if I was there Because I am not Korean, and I'm a foreigner, essentially, it would make it easier for her to get the services. So we went there. And the can he did say a few words in Korean, which I was able to make out was basically telling her she shouldn't have gotten pregnant and was kind of hounding her a little bit, but then he agreed to it. And he got the medicine from across the border from current state. And it came from Burma into Thailand, and he provided her pills, basically, which she had to take and injections, and she was able to get the abortion, but it's pretty amazing how there's so much power dynamics, that you have to go through such a process to get a service like abortion as a migrant woman. Yeah, it was really hard for her.

Brad 25:46

I mean, I'm not, unfortunately, I'm not surprised. You as we were discussing, previously, I also had someone going through a similar thing. And it was some of the advice I was given was like, you know, have have a man accompany her because the doctor is more likely to do an abortion if they feel that, you know, a boyfriend or husband or something is giving permission to this rather than just upon the request of a pregnant woman. Which is, you know, a terrible outcome of entrenched misogyny. But the The other question that this might be a little bit difficult for you to, to answer, but I'm curious because we have an impression. Just on this reproductive healthcare, we have this impression of Thailand, as a country that has socially and culturally, a relatively open opinion and attitude towards sex and sexuality. Of course, it's overblown among tourists like the actual realities of a lot of people in Thailand, they are coming up against much more conservative standards, then the sort of international image of the country would suggest, but I'm wondering the Korean population, do they likewise have this Thai style, open, open opinion, an open attitude towards sex? Because from what you were saying, it sort of sounds like the Koran might come from a much more conservative perspective on this does that? Is that accurate? And if it is, like, what does that mean for medical care?

Shalini Sri Perumal 27:20

Right? That's a great question. Um, I think definitely, compared to Thailand, the Korean culture is more conservative when it comes to sex and sexuality. At least when I was working in my tail clinic, the clinic itself was pretty open about it, because they had to be as a medical organization, providing health care services, reproductive health care services to women, but um, otherwise, within the community itself, there are certain perceptions, especially about women, you know, who have sex before marriage? Who, who have abortions, essentially. So there are Yeah, there are definitely some conservative ideas about women and sexuality, even men and sexuality. And there's also a little a lot of, um, I don't know how to say it, like, really unconventional ideas about it, that that get passed on, which surprised me I remember the first time when I was at meta connect, there was this idea amongst Burmese common Burmese men that if you, I forgot what it was, specifically, if you eat a certain food, it would include it with I forgot what the food was specifically, but it was something that was really you would not expect? And it would it would increase your sexual vigor and there were these little traditions or like ideas or that about sexuality and sex, but otherwise, besides these little conventional ideas that was passed down, that were not really hygienic as well, some of the time. Despite that, generally speaking, I would say yes, that it's a little bit more conservative, especially compared to Thailand.

Brad 29:10

I just want to interesting the these, these myths and these cultural beliefs about specific actions and foods like you know, I don't know how, how much this is the same with the Koran, but among like many people in in Burma, many of the Burma themselves, these beliefs towards women, the idea that you know, a woman's clothes have to be dried behind the house so that a man doesn't walk under it and lose his his power and his spiritual energy. A woman's clothes cannot be washed with a man's clothes. Anything that a woman wears when she's menstruating, is especially unclean. And, of course, the women during the early days of the revolution, were using this to to shame and and psychologically torment the soldiers by hanging up women's clothes and Use menstrual pads and things to scare the soldiers away. The funny part being that it worked. But But then again, you know, in the West, we have similar things it reminds me like soy as a as a source of protein. There are a lot of people in the West who have this belief that, well, soy contains estrogen like substances. And if you eat too much soy, you will slowly become feminized, and all this sort of absolutely medically nonsensical stuff. So it's, we're hardly immune, anywhere from from this type of thinking.

Shalini Sri Perumal 30:40

So yeah, I actually did not know that. So thank you for sharing that. That was news to me. We're definitely hardly immune. And yeah, I think I mentioned Korean traditional medicine, this is maybe a little bit off track from what you were talking about. But I think there are ideas about how traditional medicine can be, you know, can be both detrimental to health, it's outdated, whereas there's also ideas where traditional medicine like herbal medicine is, is good for you. And maybe that comes from a Western centric perspective. But yeah, it's kind of interesting to see how people view traditional medicine and indigenous medicine, what's good for you, what's not good for you? And it's definitely a conversation worth having on?

Brad 31:29

Yeah, yeah. And that, and that's kind of the conversation that that I want us to have now, because that's such a fascinating sort of perspective. And, and for, for sort of disclosure, like, I come from an academic household. So my mother was a surgeon, or what was a surgeon, back in our home country, we migrated and her qualifications were not recognized. But you know, she's she's a medical researcher at the University and a medical teacher at the medical school here. And my father is an engineer, but he did a neuroscience PhD. So I have a lot of medical stuff around me. So my natural inclination towards traditional medicine is relatively negative. And I think that this is an attitude that a lot of Westerners have. There's a there's a famous musician, singer, comedian, singer from Australia, who Tim mentioned, who has a very famous song called storm. It's a it's a poem, and there's a part in it, where he says, alternative medicines, by definition, have either been proven not to work, or have not been proven to work. Do you know what we call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? Medicine. And there's a there's a very strong undercurrent of saying, Well, if it hasn't been scientifically proven to be effective, then we should treat it as as as if it's useless at best and harmful at worst. But you're now coming from having been there having seen this yourself. And you've written a thesis talking about the the advantages of indigenous medicine. Right. So I'm very keen to understand how indigenous medicine can be applied beneficially, and where the benefit comes from. So what can you tell us about this?

Shalini Sri Perumal 33:26

Right? I think it's so interesting that you mentioned that there's a lot of Western perceptions of traditional medicine being unhygenic, or not effective or useless, as you said, but as you said, as well, um, by that quote from that, man, and yeah, I think a lot of it is Western centric, and Eurocentric and has a bit of a colonial hangover, this perception of traditional medicine, although it's not necessarily unfounded, because there is some traditional medicine that can be harmful, and that might need to be reconsidered. Because they maybe came about from a time that is not there's not It's not applicable anymore. And the belief systems maybe don't make sense now. But I think predominantly, especially there's a lot of resurgence of indigenous medicine, not just in current state, but world over this idea that you need to get a lot of indigenous communities, whether in the US or in Southeast Asia or Latin America, where connecting with your indigenous roots and traditional medicine and decolonizing is part of the discourse around medicine and feeling from atrocities and your own inner spiritual growth and your physical growth and mental emotional growth. And I think this is part of the argument that I was trying to make that Korean people have a very vibrant traditional medical practice and ethnic health practice and it's unrecognized. It might not be scientifically proven necessarily, but science is not enough. Really, I think because a lot of people from the global south It comes from experience right over the years from the ancestry from the ancestors experiences in which these ideas of medicine came about. And that's part of the current traditional medicine or practices. So I think the and also, it's also interesting because I think reclaiming traditional medicine for Korean woman is part of preserving the current culture, especially when they've been when their current culture has been stigmatized by Burmese communities by the bomber community in Burma, and also by Thai communities who might see them as being different and less than when living in Thailand as migrants. And so ultimately, it's kind of contributing to their self determination in Myanmar by we claiming this medicine. That's the idea that I have this is not something I spoke specifically in my thesis, but it's something that came to my mind when you mentioned this. And I think, well, basically, the argument that I made within my thesis specifically was that community based medicine, whether it's herbal medicine, herbal medicine was particularly what I was focusing on, but also myths and practices on things like reproductive health care services, abortion services, having midwives as opposed to going to a Western Hospital, have these kinds of services not only provide a sense of an identity for this woman, but also provide safe services as well, as long as they're safe. Of course, I'm not advocating for any traditional medicine, but only those medicines that are safe and hygienic for women, that these reproductive health services they can really they can really provide a sense of identity for this woman and also safety and they're also less expensive, I would say for these woman because they're immediately available they're also culturally sensitive because community health care workers members of the community themselves trained community themselves are providing these services so language isn't a problem. Discrimination based on ethnicity or country is not a problem. So um, yeah IDPs refugees migrants Korean woman, they in like in Thai hospitals, when they go there mostly Thai hospitals offer Western centric medicine. So really hard to sing tradition to meet contemporary needs. It kind of pervert preserves an element of cultural continuity, where you know, within an environment where discontinuity and cultural loss are common for fourth migraine migrants, and yeah, so that's just something I wanted to share that came to my mind.

Brad 37:36

So I want to like to engage with different elements of this because I'm, I feel a bit conflicted, right. On the one hand, when you talk about the continuity, you talk about essentially to break it down. Colonialism one of the legacies of colonialism has been the the severing of traditions, the destruction of traditions, the loss of certain belief systems, traditions, stories, what have you. And this is this is all over the the formerly colonized world, right, like so I'm just thinking about the the loss of almost all pre pre Columbian Mesoamerican courtesies. With I think, I think there are only like three original courtesies that have survived the great purging that was done by the by the conquistadors. So the loss of, of heritage and history and culture and identity is just unfathomable. And so part of me wants to jump on this and go like, wow, like, if we can connect to that heritage, if we can help to undo some of the damage of colonialism, and help to revive these traditions and preserve these traditions. That's a beautiful, wonderful thing that can strengthen identity and can strengthen community. On the other hand, my my other question has to come down to cold, hard medical efficacy. And the question of, are we objectively getting superior medical outcomes through indigenous medicine, traditional medicine than through more westernized International Medicine? And if so, what is the reason for that? Right. So that's the question is, is it better in terms of the outcome of the patient?

Shalini Sri Perumal 39:31

The outcome in terms of the outcome of the patient? That is a great question. I wish I had the answer for that. I think I need to do another thesis PhD on this. But um, I don't have an answer for that. In terms of whether it's better in a scientific research way. I do. I can say that. I'm least from my own personal experience. I know that, like passed down from my family when I was growing up whenever I had Certain food intakes that I would, that I would eat, you know, whatever I would consume certain foods, whether there's one thing is a traditional Indian food that is used for stomach pains. And that's something that's very common in Indian in Indian culture, but you don't really hear it from medicine or Western medicine or point of view. And, um, you know, there's just certain things, whether it's using certain herb concoctions when you're digesting food, and whenever you're consuming food, sorry, or whether it's a I think there's like this. I know this is a little controversial, but acupuncture for asthma, and a lot of other medicines from East Asia is also something that's traditional, but not necessarily advocated by Western medicine. But Chinese medicine is also controversial. And I know that Korean medicine and my own experience with Indian medicine, specifically South Indian medicine, I personally feel better when I take these medicines, because it not only has health outcome, whether or not it's better than Western medicine, but if I'm, it also makes me feel connected to my ancestors. And this is part of what I wanted to talk about how spiritual health is so connected to medicine, and that you don't see that in western medicine, right, like, spirituality is so important for traditional societies. And when you're severed, as we said, from that heritage, due to colonization, or due to, essentially colonization, but when you're separate, and you're not able to connect to your ancestry, it's, it really affects you. So even not, I'm not against Western medicine, I just wanted to put that out there, there's been a lot of medicines I've taken, that have have done good for me. But I just want to make the argument that traditional medicine can do wonders as well, and just don't have enough research on it. Because we have been severed, and it's unfortunate that we have, yeah.

Brad 41:53

And I think it kind of reminds me of a story that my mother told me in the hospital, they were giving medicine to old patients, like they were quite, quite elderly. And they had a new medicine coming in. Because the old medicine, it worked, but it had really bad side effects. Right, it could cause them to lose appetite, or it could cause them to feel nausea, it could and would if they nauseated, they don't eat, if they don't eat, they don't have energy. So they tried to transition the patients do a new medicine that had fewer side effects. But what they found was they couldn't, because the patients genuinely believed in the efficacy of the old medicine. And they didn't trust the new medicine. Oh, that's and because of that psychosomatically. They, they would not respond positively to, to the new medicines very much like the placebo effect. If you believe that the medicine is effective, your body will start to react positively, just through this belief. And even within the scope of Western medicine, they found that if patients have developed a relationship to a certain medication, they believe in the efficacy of that medication, it can be very difficult to transition them to a new medication, even if the new medication is is better on paper, the results could be worse, because the patients don't believe in it. So so I definitely understand the argument that that taking medicine that you believe in from from either personal experience or a spiritual perspective, or that connects you to your past could be better for you. Because you your body will respond well because you believe you're taking something that is that is very curative, and is very good for you. But you brought up acupuncture. Yeah, and that's a fascinating one because I am. So I actually go for treatment that is that is referred to as needling, dry needling, which is very similar to acupuncture, it still involves putting needles into the body. But it's it's much more specific in what it does, you put a needle into a muscle, and you use the needle to trigger a spasm in that muscle. And after the spasm, the muscle relaxes. And this is a very efficient way to relax muscles that are that are deep, that are difficult to access from the outside. And I asked my my therapist about this my my massage therapist about this, who administers it and he's licensed to do it. He's qualified all that. And I asked her like, is this acupuncture? Is this not? And he basically said, Well, technically what we're doing is is witchcraft. As far as the medical community is concerned, dry needling has not been proven to work yet. We could not offer this as a as a mainline medical procedure because there is not enough research to meet the burden of evidence, even though it works and you know, it works and I know it works and you pay me a lot of money to do this to you. And it's clearly effective, and we understand how it works. And I can explain it to you, it still technically does not qualify, because we don't have enough research on it yet. And I think acupuncture is one of those things where if it's done by someone who's just sticking needles in, based on some geometric pattern or something, it's not going to do anything. But if you're putting the right needles in the right place, it absolutely can do something. And the trick is making sure that that you have a practitioner who is doing something that is effective, and separating out the good from the bad.

Shalini Sri Perumal 45:34

Right. Yeah, definitely relate to that. Um, yeah, I think it's interesting how we have this idea that having research written, which is good in itself, of course, having the evidence and the research done and having it and having it on paper, that specific medicine is good for you. I can definitely I value that. But at the same time, maybe we need to shift ideas of what entails scientific evidence, if that makes sense. There's ancestral evidence, right. And I think I can relate about the occupants. Even my sister, she had asthma growing up, and we, we lived in Japan, I lived in Japan as a child, and an acupuncture was very common there. And for asthma patients. And so we she, she did acupuncture was very effective for her. And we went to a doctor who probably knew where to put the needles in, right in the right places. So it worked. But I can definitely see how there are a lot of people who there are a lot of doctors who, who might be not might not know what they're doing, and take advantage of that. So yeah.

Brad 46:34

And that's an issue that that here in the West is currently happening with, with chiropractic. And I don't want to get a whole bunch of angry messages. But you know that here's the thing like chiropractors. When they're manipulating the body, they can be doing a lot of good things. And you can talk to your physiotherapist will say like, yes, what the chiropractor has done, has effectively alleviated that pain temporarily, because you didn't address the underlying problem. But they have nevertheless alleviated that pressure they have alleviated that pain. And that's a good thing. But you also have cases of chiropractors. There was a case a few years ago here in Australia, where a chiropractor killed the child by by twisting the neck of the child. And this is this is caused a huge problem where we're basically saying, Look, we're not trying to say that chiropractic doesn't have value, it does have value. And there is real medicine at play. But you also have people who are manipulating bodies, and they don't understand what they're doing, and they're not being safe. And they can be causing a lot of harm. So you we need to start investigating. And this leads to a bigger question that I want to put to you. Do you think that there is space? Because I know you said let's decolonize medicine? So this might be ironic, but is there space? Do you think to apply the scientific research methodology to traditional medicine, to work with these communities to say, look, let's sit down, let's look at what you do. And let's try to understand what parts of it is actually working. And what part of it is just traditional belief that was attached to it over the centuries that is not actually necessary. And make sure that the traditional medicine that you're applying that is still the medicine that's been passed down for centuries, is preserving the components that work? And is not exposing people to the practices that don't work? Do you think there's space for this?

Shalini Sri Perumal 48:35

I definitely do think there's space for that. And it would be wonderful if traditional medicine could get more scientific based research, because I think there is a science behind traditional medicine is just been untapped. And not it not enough research has been put into it because of the suffering. And I also think that it would be important that if this were to take place that traditional medicine women are the stewards of this research, because they Yeah, I think they a lot of medicine, women are such an integral part of traditional medical systems and they're undervalued, they're not they're seen as like witches and like instant societies in general, they're not seen and they're not respected for what they do. And I think that if they're stewarding this research and are able to have an input feel like they have a say in this it would be really beneficial. And we will be also be able to kind of see what what is working what is not working because like you said, not all traditional medicine is necessarily good. There's going to be bad apples. So um, yeah, I definitely do value that.

Brad 49:34

So let's get right on that medicine woman thing. This is this is fascinating to me, and I want to understand this a little bit better because, of course, in the modern and near modern Western world, right. Medicine has been viewed as a predominantly male activity. You have to go to a medical school you have to have the money you have to do formal studies. and women, of course, were generally excluded from this for centuries. And the exception being midwifery anything to do with women's reproductive health or, or giving birth, you know that that would be the exception where women were allowed to play a medical role. But in the majority of cases, medical practice was very much a male thing. And, in in very certain very traditional societies where medical practice is connected with spiritual practice. I'm thinking for example of the shamans in Siberia, where medical practices done by communing with the spirit world to try and sort of heal a spiritual imbalance. Again, in a lot of those cases, it is a male shaman or a male religious figure, who is performing that medical function. But you're you're talking about medicine woman, and that makes it seem that medical practice is a very female thing. Is it? Is it that there are two different types of medicine like male practice and female practice medicine? Or is it medicine as a practice, generally a female undertaking in current communities?

Shalini Sri Perumal 51:15

And communities? That's an interesting question. I feel like I don't know enough to really answer that. But I can say that medicine woman do play an important element of traditional practices and current culture is matriarchal. So, um, medicine, women do play a significant role in medicine, I wouldn't say there are no medicine, men. Medicine, women do play a significant role. And it's interesting because I can speak about reproductive health services, like you said, in at least in Western society, there's midwifery and a lot of women are kind of steering the native narrative around reproductive health services. And you see that even in current culture, but you see it beyond beyond just reproductive health services as well within traditional societies, not just kind of culture. And I think the reason why I think what is interesting about that is that there's been a lot of whether it's due to colonization, or because of the bomber, majority persecuting the current, there's been a lot of pillaging and rape of the womb, if that makes sense, like in a spiritual sense. And also, in a very little sense, there's been a lot of rape. And so womb based services are so important. And medicine woman can plays such a key role in that. And I think they're really undervalued when it comes to that, or they're seen as just having that niche of providing reproductive services, and they're not seeing beyond that, but there's so much that they can do, whether it's spiritual health, emotional health, mental psychological health, there's so much more to them. And, and at the same time, I also want to say that there are also medicine women who might not necessarily provide safe services, whether it's unsafe abortion methods, providing really unsafe abortion methods. For example, in Burma, in from the Burmese migrant population, one of the leading causes of maternal mortality in the border region is unsafe abortion, so and that's done through medicine woman who might be employing unsafe practices. So it's not all glory when it comes to traditional medicine. But there's definitely so much scope there. And I wish we explored that more.

Brad 53:27

I mean, I absolutely have to agree with that. And I think when, even even before when you were saying like it could be grounds did another master's thesis, looking at this, I was just in my head, I was like, Are you are you joking? Like this is this is enough to launch a series of PhD theses like this is an entire field of investigation that has been criminally neglected, I think, over centuries, and it's it almost feels like leaving money on the table to not investigate things that could be working and could be improving patient outcomes. Right. So I highly agree with you.

Shalini Sri Perumal 54:09

Yeah, gave me some fuel for my PhD topic, because I want to do a PhD in public health. So this actually plays out well, so.

Brad 54:16

I think, yeah, I think this would definitely be like vital. And, and exciting to look at. So hopefully, that works. But I'm wondering if you can actually give specific examples because they were talking very much in the abstract and I'm still having a bit of difficulty picturing this in my mind. So what what would be an example of a traditional health whether it's a traditional medication that that may Tao would offer or traditional type of service or traditional approach other than the general fact that they are communicating in current languages or the fact that they are coming from a culturally familiar background? Are there specific medications specific procedures and specific services that are offered that you can think of differ from what we would expect in a more traditional medicine? Sort of like a standard medical?

Shalini Sri Perumal 55:11

That's a good question I wish I had, I wish I had like a list of this. And I should have done more research on this for my paper, but I do, I can think of a couple most of them as our herbal medicines, I would say. A lot of herbs that are found in current state or in the border region of Thailand and Myanmar are beneficial, whether it's for reproductive health services or for other health care services. So healthcare needs and concoctions of them are helpful. So these are kind of part of the traditional medical system. I can I can give an idea of a traditional medical practice that's not good when it comes to unsafe abortion, where it's essentially inserting an object within a woman's vagina. And yeah, that's really unsafe, but it's a traditional medicine practice that has been passed down. And that's, that's actually unsafe for the mother. And so those are two, I can give one, one, that's not good one. That's good. I wish I had more. And I definitely need to do more research on this. I feel like my thesis was, there was a lot of scope and opportunities for me to improve it. And this is actually one, I did speak in abstract a little and I wish I hadn't. But yeah, thank you for that disclaimer, I also want to give a disclaimer that may tell clinic doesn't only provide traditional medicine services, they do also provide Western medical services, right, like operations that are providing Western medicine. But yeah, it's a combination that they're providing. So it's not just traditional medicine, but the community based aspect of it is very integral to their work. So that was the argument I was making were Korean traditional medicine is an aspect of what I was arguing. But overall, it was more of a community based accept aspect for the speaking in Korean languages or other ethnic languages. And yeah, just the safer environment for migrant woman.

Brad 57:01

Oh, absolutely. And I think I'm very just on on on your thesis, I'm very sympathetic. Because I, I also finished the master's degree at the end of last year. And it's, you know, it's almost a joke within academia that the, the use, or the the sentence that we can always throw is, but this is beyond the scope of this thesis, or is beyond the scope of this research. And it's that catch all excuse we have of like, well, I don't have time, I don't have space. And it's true, you don't, you don't have time, you don't have space, you can't investigate everything at all times, you have to put a limit. I don't know what the system was for you. But I think in Australia, the general rule is a master's thesis is limited to 30,000 words, you can't go over that a PhD is limited to 100,000 words, you're not allowed to exceed that limit. So you have limited space, you can't investigate everything, unfortunately.

Shalini Sri Perumal 58:02

Yeah, I think my thesis was around a little over 70 pages. And I would have loved to write more, but I couldn't go beyond that.

Brad 58:10

So yeah, and there are time constraints as well, like you have to deliver by the deadline.

Shalini Sri Perumal 58:14

There is that of course. Yeah.

Brad 58:16

But but just just on the herbal medicine itself. I mean, I think that there's if you could get a pharmacologist and a botanist involved, yeah, just sort of analyzed what are the chemical compound because there are so many substances that contain or that are contained within plants around us. Some of them are useless, but we believe that they work and again, like from the western perspective, if you go into a a gym supplement shop, and I know this from extensive personal experience, you you buy various mystical powders that all promised to give you all sorts of wonderful advantages. And you look at the ingredients list. And part of them are coded reference, you know, plants and flowers and things to slip past the government regulators. That's a legal thing that you just have to learn how to read those. But some of them are just referencing extracts of plants that may not do anything, but may have you know, taurine is very popular. We don't know if it does anything Yohimbe a root very popular. We're not convinced that it does anything, but a lot of people spend a lot of money to buy the magical powders that they think we'll improve their, their muscles and their fat burning and all this sort of stuff. So investigating that would be fascinating.

Shalini Sri Perumal 59:38

I think that would be fascinating. Definitely. I'm definitely known to drink a lot of herbal tea so I'm not sure if it's actually doing much for me I feel like it is but um it depends right I think even Western Western ideas of traditional medicine is changing. I'm not I think like there's a there's become more like drinking herbal tea. I know among a lot of my friends who live in the West, they're drinking herbal medicine and herbal teas. So it's not all great. Black and white, there's a lot of gray areas. And there's a lot of opportunities for like, combining the two. And yeah, yeah, there's a lot of scope there for sure.

Brad 1:00:15

I mean, I think herbal tea, herbal tea is has been used in the West for a very long time. But it has to be understood the purpose, right? Traditionally, herbal tea is just drunk, because you want to have a non caffeine alternative to tea. But you know, I remember my mother saying that. And I think I told you this in the past, like for the peasants in the village, if you tell them to boil the water for the for the sick children, eventually they stopped boiling the water because they don't understand the point of it. You tell them to make a herbal tea, they have to boil the water to make the herbal tea. So we do that, like especially chamomile tea, very, very popular in the West. But one thing that I've noticed, for example, my, my mother and my sister both will drink tea that is made from the leaves of the raspberry bush. And they drink it to alleviate menstrual cramps. Interesting. Yeah. So there are some herbal teas that have started to be taken a little bit more seriously in the West as having actual medicinal impact, rather than just having a pleasant flavor. Right, right. So yeah, I would say I would say traditional Western medicine is becoming a little bit in vogue in the West, I would be very cautious. Because I would also say in the 1960s and 70s, Eastern spirituality. You know, Indian spirituality, Japanese spirituality, Chinese spirituality became very popular. And that was that was a fad. That was not something that was taken very seriously. In the West, it was something that became very popular on a surface level, right. But it was not like some people really embraced it. And you had a lot of frauds and you had a lot of cults that started in the West. The Rajneesh cult is very famous in the United States, they're actually responsible for the biggest bioterrorism attack on US soil to this day. So things like this did happen, but then it just faded from popularity. So when when Eastern medicine, medical practice, traditional medical practice comes into vogue in the West, I am very skeptical of of Western acceptance of these practices, because it can be very fickle. Yeah, you can just be like, Oh, it's interesting for a decade, and then we're over it.

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:02:42

Right, right. Like I can see that like the cursory interest and yeah, also, I think it's interesting. You mentioned how it became a fad, like cultural appropriation is also something that I was thinking about, about. I know, in India, like yoga, for example, there's a lot of conversations around how that's been approved, cheap, appropriated by the West, and how Indians are not able to be the voice behind these yoga centers on. And that's kind of the argument I was also making about your question about how if there was scope for Western medicine, to, to integrate with traditional medicine, and also kind of give some scientific evidence as to traditional medicine, but it's bad. I think it's really important for traditional medicine, women and men to be stewards, because they've been a lot of times cultural appropriation is an issue, right, and to have to have their names and authorships. Or just to have their voices heard and honored and respected is so important. So that's just nothing like mine. When you when you were talking about that?

Brad 1:03:44

No, I completely agree. It's, it is a strange thing that comes up in in many places. I was, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about the Korean language, for example. And, and, and, you know, I learned some elements of the language from, from sources that were written by Westerners. And I was asking him like, Well, would you do things this way? Or would you do things that way? And he said, Well, I would do things that way. And I've just gone. But that's so strange, because all of the books and all of the resources say that that's not what happens. And, and he's like, but, but it is what happens. And, and so, of course, the natural conclusion is, well, then, yeah, maybe the resources should have been made by Koreans who speak Korean as a native language, rather than by Westerners who studied it and formalized it, because they were wrong. And effectively, what happens is, they're writing down things that were true, maybe 100 years ago, 200 years ago. And it's just become the solidified understanding of the thing. And it's passed down from book to book to book to book to book until it's no longer accurate. But everyone keeps sharing it. Definitely. And, you know, we're not reaching back out to the original people and going is this still relevant and I'd like double checking with them. Because then they would look at this and go no, that's, that's not even distantly relevant. That's that's completely incorrect by today. Right? And I think, yeah, we do have this habit of coming in and academically saying this is this is our way of doing it. And this is my research and my everything and like, yeah, maybe double check.

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:05:21

No, definitely. I can also say that for a lot of books about Burma itself, like, I feel like there's so much material out there about Burma, that's written by Western authors, which is fine, you know, they're researching, and they're learning and they're, they want to share what they've learned. And I feel like there's such a dearth of literature out there by Burmese authors, by ethnic Burmese men and women, and whether it's on the topic of Burma or anything else, so it's Yeah, I'd love to see more authorships by you, yeah. Members of the community themselves. So yeah. Just piggybacking on what you said,

Brad 1:05:55

No, and I agree, it's, this has nothing to do with medicine itself. But this is still a fascinating and important topic. Because the problem is, it's not it's not even that they're not writing the books like I, you know, I am a Westerner and I come up, obviously, very frequently, with this problem of, of people saying, well, you know, can you speak from a position of authority? Can you really know something? And generally speaking, my answer is yes. Like, if you know, a thing that is correct, then it's correct, no matter whose mouth it comes out of, right? Like, the truth is not determined by mass appeal. And to paraphrase the modal technique, but then there's also a sense in which, you know, so frequently, like, I lived in Burma, right? Like, you know, I understand the culture, and then there might be a tiny thing that I'm like, I don't know what and I call my Burmese friends, like, what is this? Like, oh, yeah, this is this tradition, like we all sang this song as children. And so this is a reference to this other thing. And, and I'm like, I've never heard of this. I didn't grow up there. I don't know the children's songs. I don't know, the stories they got told at bedtime. I don't know, these references. I've never heard of these things. So there is always going to be an absence of this. And you know, I've never been to a Burmese funeral. So when, when Mohinga became a meme in Burma, the smell of Mohinga coming from military bases, being the symbol that the military are losing a lot of soldiers that, you know, because they're cooking so much more here for the funeral ceremonies, because I'd never gone to a funeral that I didn't think to automatically associate that. Yeah, interesting. But but to them, it does. And, and I think ultimately, it comes down to this issue that you do have ethnic minorities who are trying to talk about these things, you do have Burmese people trying to talk about these things, but they just don't get given the same platform, they don't get given the the doors are not opened for them, to say what they need to say, in a way that will reach an audience.

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:07:56

Insight Myanmar is doing a wonderful job at providing that platform, I just want to say.

Brad 1:08:02

We appreciate that, and we really are trying. But even, you know, even for us, it can, it can be difficult. Like we if you just look at our platform, we have an English language platform, and we have a Myanmar language platform. And those two platforms are quite different. And they have different listeners in different, you know, audiences, you know, different guests, different everything. And the goal, the dream would be to be able to take someone who is a Burmese speaker only, who has brilliant things to say, you know, amazing insights and be able to bring their voice to this much broader English speaking audience like that would be the gold standard. That would be the dream that we've we're thinking about in the background, how can we make this happen? And it's, it's hard to do that. But if if people aren't even interested in trying to find a way, then we're never gonna get anywhere. And I agree, like, what you're talking about these medicine women? I can, I could already see it, that their names would be completely left off the publications because well, they, you know, they just, they just, they just present people in a refugee camp. They don't have publications, they don't need to be on an academic paper. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's, that's not how this works. Like your research came 90% from this person. Exactly. They belong on the paper. It's like it's like, you know, climbing Mount Everest and not mentioning, you know, Tenzing Norgay to who did the hard yards it's like that's a great if you want the first like the Shep has already done this come down. So yeah, I know I completely agree with the perspective you're bringing in and if if it can be done, if this research can be done in a way that is going to include the custodians of this tradition of this knowledge, and gives them then then we can have a two way street then traditional medicine can be welcomed into standard medicine, because the custodians of traditional medicine are not being arrogantly excluded. Right? In the research, they can be part of it. And there can be genuine two directional exchange. Right, instead of just extracting the information from them.

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:10:20

Right. That's a great word. But yeah, extracting it was done. Now, it's, we need to change that for sure. Yeah.

Brad 1:10:28

Absolutely. So, yeah, I think I think the possibilities for research are endless. And I think the advantages that could come are impressive. But let's jump forward then this fall with it. So you're in so you're an Indian?

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:10:44

Yes, I am. I am in New Delhi.

Brad 1:10:47

And yeah, so things over there a little bit different but you still have contact with with the Burmese population. So I believe you're working with Action Aid India, currently.

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:10:59

Yes, I am working with Action Aid India, but I'm I'm still doing a few consultancy was with community based women's organizations in Thailand and Burma. So that's Christian Women's Association, Thailand and modern woman's organization. I'm doing consultancies with them. And I'm also consulting with Finnish Refugee Council in Yangon. So yeah, I want to I'm trying to stay connected to Burma, I read a few articles for democratic voice of Burma and some other news sources on the issue of Myanmar. And I've also written about India's relationship with me and more, and there's in the refugee pocket. Me and Mary, Myanmar refugee population living in India, which is another unique perspective, and probably a conversation for another day or even a little bit now. But um, yeah, I'm still keeping my my contacts. Yes. Yeah.

Brad 1:11:48

So just a curious like, you're in touch with a lot of these sort of ethnic communities through Thailand. I'm wondering, do you see similarities between because you said you're in contact with was it the obviously the Korean obviously catching them on? Yeah. Yeah. Do you see similarities in how these community organizations operate? Or do you find that each one of them has a totally different approach to providing Community Services?

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:12:20

Right, right. I can definitely see similarities and also some differences. I think the similarities are that there's a very well, I think we mentioned it already, how there's a very community based approach. And there's this lot of hope, I would say about how Burma the future of Burma is an ethnic communities, if that makes sense. Like, the communities are such an integral part of Burma and without their voices within the future of Burma, there's no Burma and all of them are against the military. You know, they're not working against the military, but they don't they don't agree with the military's tactics and the crimes it's committing. So there's, in principle, what they believe in is the same, especially those women's monuments organization and Christian Women's Association Thailand, on how they view women's rights, how they view ethnic representation in Burma, there's a lot of similarities and beliefs may Tao Clinic was a little different because it was a hospital. And so what they were providing was different. And more comprehensive, much bigger organizations. So how they operated was different. And they were operating primarily within Thailand, whereas monument organization, Chairman's Association, Thailand, operate across the border as well. And finished Refugee Council only operates within Yangon and within sorry, within Burma, not excuse me, not with the diaspora, or displaced populations outside of Burma. So what a diversity but a lot of similarities as well.

Brad 1:13:57

Interesting. And this is what, so this might be a weird one. But I'm just wondering whether there is enough similarity in their contexts as we could sort of view them as perpetual minorities, they're minorities within Myanmar, and targeted the Mon, less so historically, but the current and the kitchen, definitely a targeted minority is under the military dictatorship. And now in Thailand, they're still very much minorities, and very much outsiders. Is there enough similarity in the experiences that they have, that they are sort of banding together into a collective of community groups? Or do they tend to stay separate and not have meaningful ways to collaborate with each other?

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:14:48

Well, that's a great question. Well, there's the Women's League of Burma, which is essentially a league of ethnic organizations, whether it's Rohingya or mono chin, and yeah, it's I think there's a lot of similarities, enough similarities to kind of have a common thread of understanding of similar experiences and discrimination faced like in Thailand, Korean woman teaching women face discrimination both by Thai, Thai communities as well as the bomber majority in Vermont. So there's definitely areas for collaboration and under understanding amongst ethnic communities. I think there's so much scope there. And Mon, like you said, a little less, because they're not maybe not as discriminated against as kitchen Korean. But um, yeah, there's so much scope.

Brad 1:15:38

They're fascinating to the I'm just wondering like, would they have enough power collectively to, to bring the Thai government to actually trying to recognize them and support them? Because you said that the Thai medical system was making some small concessions? Is this because of their collective size and the advocacy work that they're able to do? Or are they basically just trying to survive under the radar?

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:16:05

That's a great question. I think they're trying to survive under the radar, especially now. With the military takeover? Ah, I would say? That's a great question. I think there is hope for some advocacy level work that can take place for changes in the Thai healthcare system, for example, or even in Thai employment service, employment laws, when it comes to migrant workers living in Thailand, for example, kitchen Women's Association is doing research on kitchen, migrant woman living in Thailand, about the employment services that they provided, and what they're able to what kind of jobs are able to take and their experiences and Korean women face similar experiences, whether it's being paid less or facing unsafe work environments. And yeah, I think there's so much similarities, that there's so much scope for advocacy efforts for towards the Thai government to make changes, I hope that I can't say if that would be enough, I wrote a paper sorry, not a paper an article for insight, Myanmar, actually, on ethnic woman's power, the power of ethnic woman during the spring of revolution, how they played such a key role during the spring revolution in Burma, not necessarily Thailand, but in Burma, and how they will be essentially the future for bringing down the military government. That was argument that I was making. So I'm hopeful. And I hope that that is the future. But yeah, we'll have to see.

Brad 1:17:35

I mean, hopefully, but it kind of reminds me a very sad thing. I went to an art exhibition while I was in Yangon, that the friend took me to, and the point of the art exhibition was, you know, women's contributions in society. But one of the major themes was that during one of the conflicts, I think it was actually during World War Two. And the conflict for independence. They were women's units, that fought in armed conflict, to help liberate Burma. But after independence, they were not recognized. As veterans, they were not recognized as having fought, they were not given the right to march in the victory parades. And they were effectively just written out of, of the history books. Because, you know, it doesn't do to have women doing a man's job. And so they just sort of got completely sidelined and ignored and forgotten. And a lot of the artwork was trying to sort of preserve their their legacy and preserve that heritage and that history and bring attention to them. But it's, it is a consistent problem where women and other traditionally marginalized groups, it's not only women, but when you do have women doing a lot of the really heavy lifting. But then somebody has to swoop in and take the credit after the fact. Because we can't, you know, obviously, we can't have women doing things and achieving things being a little bit sardonic, but he's effectively what happens.

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:19:17

Yeah, yeah, that is effectively Well, I didn't know that I would thank you for sharing that information. And that is that I'm really sad to hear that. That's what panned out. And it's beautiful that there was an article submission trying to preserve the efforts of I think we need I think it's amazing how much art and media can play a role in bringing voice to ethnic women or really any marginalized group, as you said, within Burma or otherwise. And they provide a kind of alternative mechanism to expose the efforts of these communities as opposed to just the traditional ways. So I think media plays a huge role and I think during I thought it was interesting that how I actually wrote an article about this as well about how ethnic women are, how digital, they have a lot of digital agency online media, especially how they are learning to navigate online systems, especially with the current military takeover, where they might might not be able to be as vocal about what they believe in, even though they are and are operating in this unsafe systems, but they're so vocal, but they're using online systems, and they're using digital agency and to get their opinions hurt. So it's really interesting how there's, there's scope for that in media and art and yeah, poetry. Yeah, this might be a little off track about health, but something I wanted to share.

Brad 1:20:44

But I think it still touches on the essentials, because your work is much more it's academic, it's a master's thesis, right. But you're still effectively doing the same job of coming in, and trying to highlight the realities and the voices that often get sort of sidelined and ignored. Not as many people read academic theses. But it's still doing the same fundamental job and making a huge difference. And I because of the research that you're able to do, and because you brought something that is real, and it's happening and has been happening for a very long time, but you brought it into an accessible medium, for for us as Westerners with an academic background, you've made something that's already been going on for a very long time, finally accessible. And so now we can have this conversation, and we can have this interview and so on.

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:21:40

Kind of you, I would hope that is the case, thank you so much. That means a lot to me. Thank you.

Brad 1:21:46

I mean that, you know, that's ultimately what we what we strive to do. So I think, you know, and I teach my students this as well, I teach academic research and writing skills. And I always try to explain to my students that this is, this is not just collaboration with your colleagues, this is collaboration across all of the human experience, you're taking all of the research that was done by people before you over centuries, adding a tiny little piece to it, in the hopes that the next generation and the one after and the one after another one after another one after, can continue and have a slightly easier time trying to find answers to difficult problems. And you always have to work with this mindset that I don't care about you and I don't care about your work, I care about making the overall human capacity to solve problems better. And if you contribute to this, you have done what you are supposed to do as a student good. You know, you get your A plus none of my students get a pluses. I don't No offense, but that's not the point. They can get an A, they can get an A. But this is the thing. So I think I think you really have made an impact, I think you really have brought something forward and and opening these doors, like English language is, we don't think of it often enough. But it is such an impediment. If you can take something that's happening and put it into English, it's already much more accessible. If you take something that academia does not respect yet, and put it into academic language and an academic publication. Academia will wake up and think oh, wow, maybe we should maybe we should look at this more. Maybe there's potential here. So I think yeah, I think you've already succeeded in doing that. And, and I hope that you can continue doing that with with further research. But what, what I do want to touch on, and you're right, we'll probably leave this for another interview. But I do want to touch on what's going on in India, because I do know from having spoken to refugee community leaders in India, that there is actually quite quite a problem. We've understood from past interviews with analysts that the government of Mizoram has done quite a bit to try and protect the refugees in Mizoram, but that refugees are leaving is around for better opportunities elsewhere. Many have come to New Delhi and they are apparently facing difficulties that.

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:24:22

Well, I will just kind of provide a little bit of context from what I remember. Well, Mizoram, which is a state in the northeast of India, it's basically home to approximately 40,000 Chin migrants I believe based on like UNHCR statistics and they're from Shan state of Myanmar and what basically they share a lot of cultural and religious heritage but the indigenous museum populations are more and they basically they for example Chin's are Christians and a lot of museums are Christians as well. So there's no of cultural similarities. But there's a lot of difficulty because like you said, because of what's happening there now there's been a lot of migration to places like Delhi. And whether in Mizoram or well in Musa RAM there was more of I would say, a system in place to provide services and ensure that cin migrants were getting some level of their human rights and needs and basic needs met. That I would say when they move places like Delhi or maybe any other city in India, outside of the Northeast, accessing basic services was not easy. And mainly because their status is not officially recognized. India is not a signatory to the Refugee Convention. And refugee is not just Chin's but really there's there's a huge Rohingya population living in Delhi as well. And yeah, and also in Kashmir, so I'm in refugees are not provided the same status as a lot of other countries where that's been signatories to the Refugee Convention. And so this affects access to like employment and health services, as we've been talking about. And there's always this constant fear of being told to return to Myanmar, by the Indian government, which actually happened recently with a recent amendment to a Citizenship Act. So there was the citizenship citizenship Amendment Act, which essentially only provided legal recognition of refugees who were not Muslim, I would say with the discriminatory act and against Rohingya, a lot of Rohingya refugees are facing are fearful. Those who live in Delhi, at least, are fearful about the outcome of that and about being deported back to Burma. But on the specific question of refugees, yeah, they faced a lot of hurdles similar to Rohingya refugees are trying to be resilient, adapt, search for a better life. But they're facing a lot of issues. And that's the gist of what I do know, I hope that answers a bit of your question. And if you have further questions I'd be happy to answer.

Brad 1:27:08

No, no, no, that's the that's basically what I was looking for. I was just clarifying. So you're not actually working with the, with the Myanmar refugee communities within India, you're, you're located in India, but you're predominantly still working in connection with those communities that are in Thailand, correct? Yes.

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:27:25

But I would say actually, India works with refugees in India, including Rohingya and Qin refugees. I'm not head of that program specifically. So I don't know enough details. I have a colleague who is associated with that program, but I don't know enough about it specifically. Yeah.

Brad 1:27:41

Okay. That's good to know. And definitely, like as you as you foreshadowed, this is, this is probably a topic for another interview, because the the Indian situation is so deep. There's so much going on to cover and I know that it's such a hot button issue. That, yeah, it's it's a difficult landmine, or a difficult minefield to navigate. But if you if you can come back at some point in the future and discuss that with us, we would love to hear what's going on on the other side, on the opposite border.

Shalini Sri Perumal 1:28:19

On the Indian side, I would love to join that conversation. And thank you for giving the opportunity for this podcast. And also any future ones. I'm looking forward to it, I really enjoyed speaking to you. One thing that really spoke to me and actually got me thinking a lot more, especially in terms of a future PhD, but that was the question of indigenous current medicine and traditional medicine in particular, how whether what is the what is the general wisdom on that? Whether what are the myths associated with them and kind of understanding more? What the specific medicinal practices are? What are the herbs being used? What are what is the chemistry behind it? I think it's so important to understand this. So I would really, I really would hope for opportunities in the future for medicine and research and scientific science to explore this form. I think the idea of collaborating Western medicine with traditional medicine is wonderful. And I think that's something that should be explored more. And yeah, I think there's also, I wanted to kind of touch a little bit about on the discussion we had about colonialism, where there's so much stereotypes about traditional medicine, some are founded, some are unfounded, and particularly from the west and to remind ourselves that colonialism severed traditional medicine, women and men from their ancestry and their spirituality and maybe if they're able to reconnect to this, and there's more research and more opportunities and platforms to provide them space to understand their ancestry under traditional medicine, what's good and what's bad. There'll be less stereotypes about it. So I'm, I'm really hoping that's the future and I Ah, yeah, thank you so much everyone for listening.

Host 1:30:15

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