Transcript: Episode #257: Through Hell And High Water

Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.

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Host 0:13

Thank you for joining us for the next hour or two in this episode of insight Myanmar podcast. In an age of nearly limitless content, we appreciate that you're choosing to take valuable time out of your day. To learn more about what is happening in Myanmar. It's vital for the story to be heard by people around the world. And that starts right now with you.

0:55

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, at least it was either.

Host 1:32

Welcome to this episode of insight, Myanmar podcast. We are recording from Bangkok. And I am really happy to be here with our guest. Lorcan love it who will describe his many years of covering living in Myanmar as well as post coup work that he's done. So Lorcan. Thanks for joining us here. And can you tell us a bit about your background?

Lorcan Lovett 1:56

Hi, Joe. Yeah, sure. So it's great to be here. And my background is in journalism. So I started off about 12 years ago, in the UK, where I'm from, I'm from South Wales. And then I spent a few years working for local newspapers there. After that, I moved to Vietnam. I spent a couple of years there. But it was Myanmar, that was always a real source of intrigue for me, especially in Vietnam when I was a bit closer to the country learning some more about it. So in 2017, February, I moved to Myanmar. Actually, it was if you remember who Kony was assassinated outside Yangon airport when he was cradling his grandson. So that happened on the 29th of January, which was my birthday. And I happened to I moved to Myanmar a few days after that. And then I joined the Irrawaddy, for, not so long, but maybe about six or seven months. And that was a crash course into Burmese politics and news and dynamics. And then after that I continued to live in Yangon until two until a few months after the coup, freelancing and working for magazines and editing and things like that. And then eight I think it was April the eighth 2021. I left.

Host 3:33

So you arrived really when the transition was in its full blossom. And this is a really interesting and dynamic time to be in Yangon. You're in newsrooms from one place to the other. There's events are happening every week, every month. There's a whole host of things happening during that time that we continue to talk about now. So before we talk about the the coup in the post coup reality, can you share what it was like being a journalist who was living and reporting both the features of the journalistic world as well as how that then intersected with the politics and everything else?

Lorcan Lovett 4:09

Yeah,, I felt very lucky, and especially in hindsight, feel lucky to have been in Myanmar during that time. There was a real dynamic energy and things were starting for the first time there were a lot of kind of growing industries and new trends and yeah, had a really good energy about the place. So during that time, I got to travel across the country a bit on stories from for instance, the new surf scene and Myanmar, was surfing. And we sang and I got to go to McG which was the land of rubies and around kitchen stay and learn about a little bit about the ethnic landscape and lesser known minorities like the shiny and yeah, there was, there was this kind of energy, which was really motivated. So every day, I felt very excited to be in Myanmar. Who am I going to meet that day? Yeah, what am I going to stumble upon? What stories I find? What can I look into? And? Yeah, it was really it was a really exciting time.

Host 5:26

What kind of challenges did you face?

Lorcan Lovett 5:28

I think it was unfamiliar terrain for many people during that time. So when Myanmar was opening up like that, there was always going to be a time that both both parties would need to invest in trying to understand each other a bit and what that what the kind of agenda was, what the goals were. And, yeah, but not not, I don't know, not too many challenges. Maybe some will come come back to me. But, you know, there was, think about 2019 or 20. I felt like there was space in Yangon and in Myanmar for a new like news and lifestyle publication, which could try to capture some of the energy that was happening, especially among the younger generation who were exposed to foreigners more and more, and trying to absorb different cultures. So around that time, we started a website called Myanmar mix, which I designed as a platform to for young Burmese writers and photographers and even cartoonists to give them more of a voice and allow to kind of shape what the conversations were going on around Myanmar that time. So I didn't see so much challenges is just kind of like exciting things to engage with.

Host 7:02

Was their challenges and Burmese newsrooms about some of the more controversial topics and how those might be covered or not be covered even. Oh,

Lorcan Lovett 7:10

yeah. Well, if we if we go back to 2017, of course, that was the Rohingya crisis. And I think it's pretty well known that that was a very difficult topic. To discuss. Foreign between foreigners and Myanmar people. Not not all Myanmar and also not all foreigners, obviously, there's always going to be a mix of opinion on both sides. But in I guess, in the media realm, it was there was some tensions in in our newsroom at the time in 2017, and probably another's about how to report what was going on in Rakhine during that time. Because you're dealing with on one hand, foreigners who come from Western countries that have a very different perception of how media in a democracy should work when it comes to especially some minorities being persecuted. So yeah, that was a clear challenge in 2017 For sure.

Host 8:26

So then you go and set up Myanmar MCS and obviously, by this time, several years, you're feeling that the environment that you're in Yangon, the people you're meeting the community that something about that is not being represented to its full extent in the different media options that are out there. And I'm sure that's what went into why you wanted to create something like Myanmar mix to give that kind of representation and color and feeling so what could you put your finger on that was that you were experiencing that you felt wasn't really the media that was out there was not representing it there was this gap which led to the formation of Myanmar mix.

Lorcan Lovett 9:05

Well, the first thing that springs to my mind is like humor. There was so many so much like funny things going on. And I felt like there was space for this online kind of digital entity that can reflect some of the the absurdities and yeah, the funniness that was going on, and where people could be like a little bit silly as well, right? A place where both Myanmar and foreigners could kind of let their hair down a bit and not be so self conscious or not be so serious because Myanmar is a serious country, right? When you look at all of the the the difficult histories of of what's happened and yeah, it's the all of those serious issues have to be discussed. But there's also a space for something which is a slightly more lighthearted while also taking into account that like these things can't be ignored. So You know, we would do like beer testing, for instance, like all of the typical Myanmar supermarket beers, and do like a very serious, but tongue in cheek review of those, we would have, you know, a lot of young Myanmar who would come on and write articles about, like the history of Myanmar swear words and just, you know, kind of culturally interesting things. But, you know, and also with like, things like cinema listings and things that can be useful for people living there as well.

Host 10:29

What kind of reception did you get with the work that you did?

Lorcan Lovett 10:32

I think we got a good reception. I, I felt like my instinct was right for that, that that demand for that kind of thing. Because people were engaging with us a lot. We were consistent during that time constantly posting articles, as you know, you have to be consistent to grow an audience. And so that was going well. And then with time, it became a bit more successful. And we decided then that it was going to be time to launch like, a very modest membership program, to give it the longevity that it needed. I was, I mean, I come from a journalism background. But at that time, I was talking more with other businesses and trying to look for a path ahead to grow that as a business because I didn't want it to become an entity that was applying and relying on grants. I wanted it to become part of this dynamic, exciting economy that was growing, and yet to be engaged with other businesses and grow, grow it that way.

Host 11:43

So and then if you weren't going for the grant model, when you were starting out, so it wasn't yet a business until it reached a certain point, how did it get funding to get off the ground in the first place?

Lorcan Lovett 11:54

I put more of my money into it. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't a huge amount, but I didn't have a huge amount of money either. But I thought why not? You know, is because it motivates me. So. And also, I believe that it would work as well.

Host 12:08

I liked what you said about it, when we talked a few days ago, that you had a line that was something like your, your investment in this in Myanmar mix was basically your investment in the growth and the belief of Myanmar. Is that did I get that right?

Lorcan Lovett 12:24

Yeah, yeah. And, and again, it was everything was going to plan, you know, it was and it was reaffirming my belief in the growth of Myanmar, and the openness of the people there. And the excitement of it all. Yeah, it was, it was what I was expecting to happen until the big event.

Host 12:45

This is I mean, this is, before we get to that big event, this is also just for those who have listened to this podcast, or those who have their own Myanmar experiences, this is fitting into one of those templates that we've heard so many other stories of you know, I was doing, the transition happened. And I was building this and I was doing this, and this was the response to it. And this is how everyone was coming together. And we were really believing in this project and how it was then benefiting Myanmar and Myanmar was was coming into this. And then you have February 1 2021. And we have the darkness and the curtain falling. So take it from there.

Lorcan Lovett 13:14

Well, I will just mention as well in the build up to that we had such a great team. And I'm I'm gonna be cautious about naming people on this podcast, because you never know, especially these days in Myanmar, who you might accidentally get into trouble or whatever. But we had such a great small team of writers, young girls and young boys working on Myanmar max. And it wouldn't have been possible to do without their their contributions and their energy and creativity. And my partner at the time, who took care of all the tech side. And there's a great like IT tech company in Myanmar. Again, I won't mention their name, just in case, but they really helped us during that time as well. So I envisaged it as a stepping stone for first time media workers so that they could build up a little portfolio there, and then go on to work for someone bigger. And that did happen even in that short space of time. We had people who started there and then contributed to big international outlets. And so that again, that was really like rewarding and fulfilling. But then the big event came. So on the lead up to that it was literally we'd plan this membership program, it would just be a cup, like a few dollars a month, just so that we could cover our costs. And then we would talk to local businesses to make sure that if you're a member, you could have a shot at winning. I don't know two days on that on the beach or some kind of prize in Yangon. Or free pizza or anything right. So we set up the page and everything. We didn't go live with it and then all these rumors started, is there going to be a coup, or the military going to seize power? We don't know. And I think a few days before the military said that they, they were and then they weren't. And then it was that weekend, I think, where it's like, oh, they're probably not going to do it. So we were all good to go. And we are ready. And then of course, I got a text message quite early in the morning, on the day of the coup, the first of February to say that they'd seize power. And within a few days, I think it became clear that any plans that I had, and everybody else had there were were totally transformed.

Host 15:41

Yeah, yeah. So from a business point of view, and a media operation, this, of course, changes everything within a matter of seconds and everything that you were building for and, and so if you could briefly tell what then where Myanmar MCS is at now, and then go into your personal story of how, how you ended up pivoting to what direction you wanted to go and when the big event happened?

Lorcan Lovett 16:06

Yeah. So during that time, into the coup, I kept me in my mix going for at least a few months, I think just to cover what was happening with the protest. While I was still trying to figure out, Okay, what's what does the future look like? But also, we were out every day in the protests as well. I was covering like, what was going on there, all of the trying to cover my best about all of the elements of it. That was at the beginning of the idea of a federal army in a post coup, federal army, because that ideas, it's not new. But after the coup, when the security forces subjected the peaceful protesters to violence. I was training in MMA gym in the early morning kenergy lake in Yangon. And the guys there were like, Hey, we can't like we can't take this from the police and the soldiers, we have to stand up for ourselves. And then I saw the beginning of what was becoming the PDF, right. So yeah, the all of these things were happening, I would come home, I would, I was also freelancing at that time as well, and trying to cover the protests. You know, not just for Myanmar Max, but for an international audience. And it was difficult to because you're so busy in the daytime to think about the bigger picture. But especially when it became apparent that the military went backing down, and we're sticking to the coup II despite the huge protests. It started, it started to sink in. For some people. This is going to be a horrendously bloody struggle for years to come. Even though it was a quite a festive atmosphere and Yangon at the time. The kind of the seriousness of the situation started to sink in. Did you

Host 18:04

feel that was a seriousness that was pervading everyone in all groups everywhere? Was it something that among certain people, certain informed people with institutional history, like yourself as a journalist, that you had this sense of foreboding that it was coming?

Lorcan Lovett 18:17

I don't think that it was a kind of blanket acceptance that this was it was going to escalate into a nationwide uprising and, you know, so many deaths and, and all of that, I think that it was just among some people who Myanmar people who knew the history while they've had first hand experience of the military, they understood who they were dealing with. These were middle aged parents who are telling their children, you're not going out on the streets anymore, because they understood that where this was headed, and a lot of younger people at that time in the protests. It was it was it was a weirdly like fun time, you know, in the protests, where people were holding like meme signs, and there was a lot of jokes and banter against men online and you know, the bodybuilders would do their own March and yeah, but, but there was definitely this undercurrent of kind of foreboding sense of doom and darkness, among especially the older Myanmar generation. Yeah. Who knew what was coming down the line?

Host 19:31

Right. And then so then, when those terrible crackdowns did happen, where were you at the time and what was your involvement?

Lorcan Lovett 19:38

So I was covering the protests at the time. And given like the, you know, what I'd read about the previous uprisings so like the Saffron Revolution, and the ATA uprising and all of those other kind of outbursts of violence by the military, especially On the streets of Yangon. Initially, I didn't go straight into the middle of the protest, I'd find like an empty building, I'd go into the sixth floor. And then I would just look to see what was happening, right? Because I didn't want to be like the person at the front who was shot. There's a lot of journalists who are a lot braver than I am, and especially photographers who are out taking photos. But after a while, I thought, oh, maybe they're not actually going to shoot because it did take a took a little while. So then I started to get like among the protests a bit more. And there was this moment, actually, maybe on the sixth or seventh of February, where they'd cut off the internet, the military cut off the internet. And there was, I was around Sula pagoda, and there was a huge protest marching towards suele pagoda, and we'd hear like rumors of it, but it was hard to verify anything. So I jumped on my bicycle. And I cycled towards that. And, and we saw it we saw like 10s of 1000s of people marching towards Sully. And I was like, Oh, my God, what is going to happen now? Are these people going to get mowed down by the soldiers? How can I tell people about this when there's no internet? So I found, I think my I was able to make phone calls to local numbers at the time. So I found a friend whose girlfriend worked in an embassy, and she had access to the internet. And so over the phone, I was describing the scene to him. He told his girlfriend and she was telling the guardian. And so we were doing like a live blog of it through that. Like saying, Hey, this is it. People aren't accepting the coup. This is the first realization of this huge protest. And from here, there's like, no going back. So yeah, we were out on the streets at that time. And then they started to shoot and kill some protesters. So things got a bit sketchy here. Then I would go out and suddenly they're in instead of being 10s of 1000s. It was down to a few dozen protesters who would quickly run away and then the police would Yeah. I wasn't I wasn't shot that with real bullets. At the time where I was in downtown, but it was happening we could hear it happening around Yangon. And then from there, those same middle aged parents who'd seen it all I'm pretty sure they were like, Hey, you're not leaving the house to their children after that.

Host 22:41

Were you had any protests where you saw and personally any other crackdowns happening?

Lorcan Lovett 22:46

Yeah, around downtown, we saw some people getting caught by the police getting bloodied and beat up and taken away. We saw the kind of the stun grenades and they were shooting towards I was part of like a small group where they would shoot towards us like that, then we'd all kind of run in different directions.

Host 23:03

And did you in when you witnessed the violence and the crackdowns what what did you see of the crowd response on the people that were on the streets as that was happening?

Lorcan Lovett 23:12

I sensed that the initial reaction naturally was to panic and run. And then quickly after that, there was a sense of like defiance and resilience. So people then started to make shields and helmets, they got slingshots out they even filled up packets of chilli sauce, they started to make improvised like tracks on the roads from digging nails on the roads to stop vehicles. So it was very quick like kind of, okay, let's do some active defense here. The The streets were blocked. The paving stones were ripped up the the rubbish bins were pushed into the middle of the streets, my own street. There was kind of blockade on either side, community watch groups used to get together and then patrol the areas because there was so much confusion at the time. Suchi has been released. Oh, no, no, no, she has not been released are they've released these prisoners. Oh, no, they haven't released prisoners. Someone like you don't know from your neighborhood. Right? Suddenly your neighbors are grabbing that person shaving off their eyebrows because they think they're a criminal. It was a really confusing time for everybody. Funnily enough, during that time, I was reading outrage by Berliner about the ATA uprising, and it was so uncanny to see his description of the aftermath of those protests, and the military's response and what was happening in real time. I could read a few pages ahead, and no exaggeration, like that thing would would happen. Like the prisoner release. You know?

Host 24:53

The same thing happened to me I was I interviewed my theta and I was reading her book prisoner of conscience about 1988 and And I as I was reading it, I was also following the news and doing interviews about the the current events. That was happening post 2021. And there were times when I was caught in a book that I and I confused what I was reading with the news, I was following other people I was talking to, and then have you reading and saying, oh, yeah, this is familiar and suddenly would reference like, you know, Havel or something and be like, Well, wait, wait a second. Oh, this is 1988. That's right. It's just, it's, um, I don't, I don't know what words you can use to describe these repeated cycles that just almost follow the same playbook on both sides. Except, of course, as we get later into the story, 2021 did take a remarkable turn. But I also want to ask, you know, when I was I was out of the country, I was out of Myanmar, when this was all happening. And this had been my home for so long. And so to see images of what was happening in streets that I was so familiar with, and people that I knew so well, it was, well, obviously, the overused word in this case is surreal. And that's the word you keep going back to there's something surreal about it, to to look at these very, very familiar sites and see the kind of unrest and danger and, and just insanity that was going on. But in your case, you were, it must have been surreal if we could use that word again in a different way. Because you were physically there, you talk about outside your home, the barricades, the confusion, the the different defense people that are starting to take over. So what was it like actually physically being present at a place that you'd called home in, you know, for however, many nights full, you know, years and nights that you had all kinds of boring and mundane and various encounters in your daily life? And then suddenly, this place that, that you know, so Well, in this normal mundane sense, has been transformed into something really, really taking a very different energy?

Lorcan Lovett 26:56

Yeah, because it would start in the morning times for the protest chants. And because we were right in the middle of downtown, that would be the thing that would start the day, you could hear them come in from the balcony. So I had come downstairs and then from, from my perspective, because I was covering them, I was more focused on Okay, who can I talk to, you know, how can I get the best coverage from today, which kind of gives me a focus and a lens to look through it in a more slightly detached way, perhaps, because focusing on like, doing the job. But yeah, in the evening times, when some of us would meet together, and we would reflect on like, the seismic events that were unfolding in front of us, then then it was surreal in the evenings, I would say. And also, like every now and then I remember outside Yangon General Hospital, where I spent half a day seeing if they were bringing in injured protesters. And this nun came up to me, and she was like, you gotta send in the drones as they want. And she said, yeah, like, like, you know, like he did with Osama bin Laden sending the drums and take out men on behind. Moments like that was like, Well, what's going on, but I was mostly running on adrenaline during that time and trying to do the best reporting that I can do.

Host 28:19

It also makes me think, you know, we have so many, especially in this age, so many TV shows and movies that are post apocalyptic, whether they're zombies or civil wars, or meteors or whatever it is. And we there's, there's some kind of morbid fascination, people have seen a familiar world, usually the US a familiar world that has been transformed into place where the normal rules don't follow when people kind of have to forge their own community in reality. And so and this also kind of gets into, into the later post cool environment down the line of, of a years of these things kind of falling away, but you were in and we'll get into that. But this is a good lead in for when this normality and this veneer of civilization and the laws you're supposed to follow and unwritten rules, written and unwritten rules. This is when it starts to fall away and peel back. And so did you feel that at the time, did you feel that there's this new reality, it's suddenly taking shape? And people are trying to figure out what it is and how to live in it?

Lorcan Lovett 29:18

I think so. Yeah. Because it's, I mean, we're three years on now. And my experiences and my opinions now have been shaped so much for the last couple of years, that it's difficult in a way to remember what I was actually thinking at that time. But the we could see already that people's lives were being changed forever. Young students realize that I just have to COVID the university studies, we're going to be delayed further. And then obviously, when the violence began, that's when their friends started to be shot and killed and you know, NLD officials being too has appeared and some tenant up on the news with I'm sorry to be grabbed graphic about things. But you know, they've been tortured and photographed. I won't get into too much like that. But yeah, that's when that's when I think things couldn't go back for sure.

Host 30:18

So let's get into your story because at some point, you obviously realize that you yourself cannot keep up your life and Yangon things had reached a certain point. What when did you realize that? What did you do? Yeah,

Lorcan Lovett 30:30

so I think, a couple of weeks into the violence. In the night time, soldiers would start marching down the streets, and people would turn off their lights as the soldiers shined flashlights into the rooms, right. And that's when doors are broken down. And, you know, journalists, NGO staff, party officials would start to go missing or like just be taken out on the street. The pots and pans were still going. So for I know the audience is very familiar with Myanmar. But that was one thing that really stuck out. If anyone isn't familiar with that, is that there's a tradition in Myanmar to bang pots and pans loudly, which is meant to, to kind of scare the evil away, right. And people began to do that after the coup at 8pm every night. And the first time that happened in downtown again, I was on my bicycle, right? Because I was told that was gonna happen. And I was cycling through the streets. And then suddenly this just like, huge metal Catrin orchestra erupt everywhere. And you think how can the military possibly suppress the spirit of the people here? It was even that if it felt so powerful, right, so enormous. So I realized that I had to leave a couple of months after the coup when soldiers were smashing down doors in the night. And our own house and our neighbors. Were being harassed by soldiers in the evening with, you know, torch lights and stuff. So I think most journalists around that time, some local journalists decided to stay on, which is incredibly brave. But I think most foreign journalists realized that it would be a wise decision to leave Aranda. And so my friend had organized the flight. I think the flights had stopped around then. So he organized a couple of flights to Bangkok. And on the eighth of April, I got on one of those flights. And that was around the time where we were like, Hey, we should go. Our good friend, Danny Fenster, we were like, Hey, we should all leave now. And he's like, Well, you know, I'm low profile. I was I'll stay for a little bit and then I'll go. And yeah, he was arrested at the airport a few weeks later.

Host 32:59

Right. So you, you leave Yangon on this about two months after the Coover so and what did it feel like to be on that plane and leaving this country you'd spent so much time in now in the state that it's in? And then as you left? What Where did you go next when you went into Bangkok?

Lorcan Lovett 33:18

Yeah. So I went, I went to Bangkok. I did, like 10 days of COVID quarantine, who I can think about and start to try to absorb what had happened. I felt emotional. And I felt a bit overwhelmed with everything. So it was probably good that I had 10 days by myself in a room to process things I'll try to. But I also felt like this was the beginning of what was happening again, the kind of the the power of the people. And the spirit of the people told me that this was only the beginning of what was happening. So I stayed in Bangkok for a few months. And then I moved to Southern Thailand for a few months. And then I just kind of stayed around Thailand, everyday, keeping track of the situation and what was going on.

Host 34:14

And so now at this point, you can't go back to Myanmar, you certainly can't go back and formal official ways through an airport. But you continue to report on the story. So talk about how you how you use your background profession as a journalist to continue to report on the story and how you were involved, who you're reporting for and what the story started to develop in this first year and second year and we'll bring it up today.

Lorcan Lovett 34:40

Yeah, so I think there's an argument to not be in Yangon at all back then and now because you get people into danger. Just purely by the fact of being a journalist and talking to people around the environment is very claustrophobic and it There are, it's difficult to operate as a journalist there. So you think, oh, there's no journalist in Yangon? Well, there are, there's still like local journalists who are working there and doing great work. But the real story, or the maybe the, the more compelling story, within the first year came from the ethnic areas where the ethnic insurgents were training, these demonstrators who had fled the regime's violence, but weren't going to give up that easily. And because I was following it every day, I started to sense and feel like more, more confident that the resistance forces were actually liberated in some areas. And of course, if there's a liberated area, there's no reason not to go there. Because that's where you see actually what's happening. So, I mean, I was all you know, you sometimes you can be all talk about oh, yeah, the resistance are doing a great job. And everything's liberated. And I say, Well, why didn't you there, then, if it's, if it's that great, you should, you should go and check it out. It but it was kind of nervous time, then because I've done a few trips into Myanmar. And at the beginning, we were kind of edging our way in a bit by bit. So first, it would be an a camp for the space people a few hours inside. And then the next trip would be a bit further in. And then it started to sink in, of what we were seeing in front of us, which was indeed, a lot of territory that had been liberated from the regime.

Host 36:47

And this is early on, you're talking about?

Lorcan Lovett 36:50

Yeah, I think the first story that we did was from inside was maybe September 2022.

Host 37:02

I'm tempted to say, yeah, and what were those early experiences like in going into the country? Were you? Were you hesitant? Or was there fear, safety precautions? And also, how were you impacted by the scenes you were seeing and people you're meeting?

Lorcan Lovett 37:17

Yeah, so the first, the first time after the coup of going into a liberated area, was nerve wracking, because we didn't know what to expect, or whether we would have trouble in the border, or what the realities were in terms of ambushes or airstrikes. And the border crossing, well, I won't go into detail about that. But it's always the there's always kind of the unpredictable element of what can happen. So you want to kind of get away from the border as soon as you can. And then, once we got inside the first time, there were about four or 5000 displaced people who we'd met. And they'd just done this huge walk from around the Prusa of like, kodomo. So and towards Thailand. And they were families, elderly people, disabled people, who had been walking for 10 days, sometimes longer. And they were, you know, exhausted, they had barely any belongings, trying to build huts in this IDP camp. So, yeah, they were all heading towards that direction. And the more the more the further I went in. After that, the more I would see displaced people, even in the nighttime walking through the jungle carrying their babies tripping up on tree roots. Without much food or shelter exposed to the elements, being guided by the Caronia army and the KDF who were escorting them to safe areas.

Host 39:07

Was it difficult to keep an objective frame of mind as a journalist as you were seeing this shape of humanity for you?

Lorcan Lovett 39:13

I don't think you can be objective, especially when it comes to Myanmar. I think objectivity is a bit of a myth. So yeah, I mean, you don't want to be a partisan you don't like especially these days, it's this is becoming more of an issue with the revolution. That because everybody knows the Myanmar regime is so brutal, and if we're going to look at it in a kind of good guy, bad guy who are the bad guys, right? We know who the bad guys are, and that some some simple terms. But the truth is, journalists aren't resistance fighters, you know, and if you're a journalist, you shouldn't be a cheerleader for for the resistance to speak. As the regime are bad, but seeing that, obviously, when you're seeing the destruction and the terror that the regime are causing, well, that's the reality of it. Right? So you put you don't just by poor reporting, the reality of that, is that that's enough, I think, yeah.

Host 40:22

But then you also came to spend a lot of time with, with PDFs with iOS, CROs, various fighters, and definitely want to get into what you saw of this culture and community. Before we do that, just touching upon what it was like being a journalist, sometimes embedded with them sometimes in the area and reporting on them. We've talked before the interview about some of the challenges that you had in terms of having them understand what basic journalism was, and that you, you, you weren't there to tell the story they wanted you to tell. And that was good for them. You were there to try to give them more, there's that were to get objective understanding. And so can you describe some of those challenges and how you dealt with them?

Lorcan Lovett 41:04

Yeah, I think that that, I mean, for the trips in karate, that wasn't so much of a problem before. But it's becoming a bit more of a challenge to sometimes there's an assumption that everybody's on the same page, the journalists and the, whatever resistance group or figures. But it's more complicated than that, right? Journalists are there to, to talk to as many people as they can. And among those people, though, there'll be some disagreements or tensions. But the journalist isn't there to represent one particular group. So I think I remind myself that I should probably make sure there's a better understanding before going into something sometimes.

Host 42:02

Right. We also talked about how you, you personally are growing increasingly interested in the color of the environment that you're in and wanting to represent that and bring that to life. And that in a lot of the reporting you do, it's more of the basic developments and details and news. And so obviously, my podcast, this is a great chance to be able and on a podcast like ours, which is not reporting what happened yesterday, but giving a general overview of someone's life and views, it's a much better opportunity to be able to give that color to listeners. And so I want to open it up to you to describe and I think this is very interesting. For me, it's very interesting for our listeners, because we hear for those that know about Myanmar, we know about the fighters and the conflict. And we hear the news we read, we see pictures, we see images and videos. But the question that I always have, and what you've gotten into describe what the color is, what does it feel like? What does it actually feel like to be here? If I'm, if I'm virtually there, and I'm talking to people, when I'm seeing things, and I'm hearing things, and I'm getting a sense of the motivations and the environment, anything from what are they actually eating and cooking to? Where are these people from? And why are they doing what they're doing? And what's the motivation? And how is it sustaining any of those things, any direction you want to go? And what can you tell us about the color that we're missing from a lot of the articles that are coming out?

Lorcan Lovett 43:22

Yeah, so from our perspective, outside of Myanmar, we see that headlines about how the resistance has liberated this area or that area. And it's the PDF and the military are in the towns. And it can feel sometimes a little abstract and intangible to think of what is actually the reality. So going out to southern Myanmar, or Eastern Myanmar and seeing these places gives it a much more textured reality of, of the different groups and the tensions among the different groups, and meeting all of the different characters out there. And seeing like the how the situation's differ between places as well. So from what I've seen so far, in at least the Eastern southeast of Myanmar, the ethnic areas have been more badly bombed and targeted than, say, Tanintharyi region at the moment. That's not to say that that will change because I think that this year, there will be big changes around Tanintharyi as well. Let's take the last trip for an example. So once we got across, we would drive we drove through a main road. So you're driving through for like, hours, a big main road where it's completely under the resistance control. And the tricky thing is there's a lot of different groups around there. So in that case, there was like the quarterly army, the KLA there was a PLA, the communist groups. There's a PDF. There's a local militias around there. And then there's always that lingering threat of the military in the hands. But once you're inside, you kind of think, right, well, there's no going back now we're like six, eight hours in and then further and further then close to the Andaman Sea. And so you think, Well, what is this going to look like? Is this going to look like a kind of crazy conflict zone with people running around and like, you know, skeletons of buildings and the whistlin of artillery? Actually, in that case, it was just a stun in southern Myanmar, set of village Riverside villages, palm, flank rivers, silhouetted mountains, you know, the smell of dried fish into roots. And you think, well, where's the where's the conflict around here? But it doesn't take much. To see the conflict. You just need to scratch the surface slightly. There's empty houses. Oh, a Dylan, a military informer used to live in that house. But then they escaped? Or why is the hospital and do because then the military, Obama if there are people in the hospital, who's in the police station, or the PDF, living in that police station now? Is this a fire station? Oh, no, it's a prison now for drug abusers, and Dylan and whoever. So in the non bombed areas, there are there are aspects like that. Some of the people that we met on the last trip. So there was one guy called Omeo, who used to be a resistance fighter back in 88, for the group called the ABS TF. And he was working with the care knew back then. And then, for him, the war fizzled out in 19 697. And he became, he had different jobs. So he became a worker on a cargo ship around Malaysia, he worked in a monastery for a while. And, you know, he became like a market selling things in the market for a bit. And then after a while, when the NLD started, had the successful election, he became an NLD, activist, and went back to his home in Tanintharyi region. And then after the coup, he realized that he needed to fight again. So he was facilitating young demonstrators, and then helping to train them. But he's 53 as well. And he was a very vigilant guy, he was always on the lookout for danger. He's someone who you kind of felt safe when you were next to. And he kept these, a bracelet of monkey bones in his satchel. And every time his legs were tired, he'd rubbed the monkey bones onto his legs, which he said, would help, you know, relieve the muscles a bit. So he was the bodyguard of a PDF leader in that area. And I felt like the kind of the, the contours of his own life reflected the modern history of Myanmar. And there were plenty of colorful characters, interesting people like that, that you'd meet, who had relatively normal lives after having this this revolutionary period period. And then in the 50s 60s, they were picked up the gun again. And people in the community look towards them for guidance and support and said, Hey, we don't want to send our children to I don't know this area, or we don't want to them to necessarily even join the PDF, we want to send them to like this local community leader, right, who's now a militia leader again. Yeah, and during that time, as well, we met an NLD MP who had become the head of security in this township, and she was looking after the prison, which was in the fire station. We met a lot of young people. I remember being in the truck for a while with maybe like five or six girls who, you know, they looked like they should be in school, but they were going to school, but the school was actually a converted PDF barracks where they were training, and they're going to go off to fight one of the most brutal militaries in Asia. You know, there's people deeply traumatized with texts, and are unable, understandably to process their experiences, who have had their limbs blown off or have lost friends. The young people in those areas Rantanen theory they would You know, the local guy who I was with was always cracking jokes. But a lot of those guys aren't really able to get the jokes, right. Not because maybe they were bad jokes owner, but it's more because their life has become so serious, so much about like life or death in those areas. So they would point out like, an, I don't know, an abandoned house where they had to sleep for five days, or they would reminisce about all that the after the coup when we had no weapons. That's where we hid for three days behind that tree or, you know, for them, it's like the land the landmarks around that they all tell this like, crazy story. Yeah, and that they relate to their own experiences.

Host 50:47

You also had shared a couple days ago, the this idea of this feeling that some of these towns kind of had this feel of Wild West frontier town. And you've described that a little bit in your description just now. But can you expand on to that metaphor of what what were you seeing and experiencing that made you feel like you were like, this was a frontier town that had just a semblance of law behind it? Yeah.

Lorcan Lovett 51:11

So for that trip in Tennant theory, I don't want to give the impression that it was lawless, because I think that their annual fee administration, were doing a good job of keeping things in check there. Although that's another complicated thing. Because when you get a lot of young, fairly untrained, people are not necessarily young, but just a lot of people with, with guns, suddenly, it's kind of it can be a recipe for disaster in the future. But what I felt around there is that so in Myanmar, as you will know, wherever you on yours feel pretty welcome, right? Like the generosity of people is just astonishing. Even during these difficult times, you're constantly fed amazing foods. And that all of that is very humbling. And the sense of community is so strong, because they've been neglected by the state for so long. In that one particular town, there were, there was a kind of community center with these. notice boards pinned on to the building, just basically like decree in the law of the land. This is the PDF law. And there was seven or eight sheets just detailing like okay, this is this is the law, this is how people should behave. And most of it was kind of uncontroversial stuff, don't let your dog bite somebody or, you know, like, it's fun, various farming practices. But if people ever thought, hey, what can I cannot can't do, like the law was was pinned to the building, so you can just go in and see it, you know. And then in that kind of area, as in most conflicts, there is always this sense of paranoia about about military informers, and suspicion, you know, and who to trust, especially newcomers. During that time, there were many newcomers who were escaping the Myanmar military's conscription. And so people have to be vetted carefully, to make sure that there weren't any spies coming into the community. And there is a sense of shame, for joining the revolution so late for those people. And not for everybody, but for some. So nobody wants to admit that they came there because they were fleeing the conscription. They want to say, well, we realize that now's the time to join the PDF. But also, not everybody wants to fight either. And some people are honest about that.

Host 53:53

Some people aren't meant to be fighters is what is there something they can do? Is there a way that you saw people resisting in a way other than armed conflict? Or has it been driven to these polarities? These black and white polarities?

Lorcan Lovett 54:02

Now there were people who were wanting to use their skills for the resistance administration. So the energy is often criticized for not being on the ground. And I think that that's a legitimate criticism for some ministers. But the truth is, there is an energy administration that's on the ground, and it's mostly run by ousted NLD MPs in that area. And in administration, you need a lot of civil servants to run education and health and humanitarian sector, and a lot of other different sectors to think about. So these young people who are well educated and might not want to fight, they would use their skills in the administration, or if they didn't want to do that. The one of the local administrators told me that they would make sure that they they found them accommodation and some land, and they can do other work, maybe agricultural work or, or construction, construction or whatever can work. In Myanmar, it's not a big revelation to say that things are complicated. It's not just the PDF is is the military or the PDF working with the ethnic armed groups versus the military, your audience, most of them will know that anyway. What surprised me is that even down to the township, in some places, there's, there's at least like seven or eight different armed groups. And the feature looks very complicated, even without the military. So in some places, I'll ask myself, why, if there's say, four or 5000 resistance fighters in this township, and there's 100, Myanmar, military soldiers left, can't you just overrun them. But intentionally, they don't overrun them, because they know that there'll be a vacuum of power as soon as they've gone. And when those soldiers have gone, there'll be a higher likelihood of the resistance forces fighting against each other for control of different roads or, or different resources. Now, I'm not saying that this is happening right now, although it is it has happened in some places. It's a reality, a potential that people need to bear in mind. When we went to Tanintharyi, I stopped at a quarterly army camp. And I won't go into the background of the quarterly army unless unless you want me to, but a commander there who is very experienced guy, and as for the military, along with within the Kenneally, for a while as well. I asked him, Why don't you take out that military base in more Dong, which is the important border area around there. Because everybody says you can or everyone around here says that you can do it. So what's stopping you guys from doing it? Well, he said, if we do that, we have to think first about evacuating the whole town and making ensure that they're safe and where they should be. And then we can expect reprisals from the military in the form of airstrikes. And from their air base, I think in the actor more Dong, it's about a four minute flight. And they will just destroy that that time. So we keep the soldiers there, in the understanding that if the military attack us in what we think is a kind of unfair way, then we'll go for them in a more long term, there's an unspoken understanding. That's what he said. But again, in other areas, in your region, I've been told that some soldiers who are kind of stranded in these outposts in these towns were surrounded by PDS, they have to ask permission to go to the market sometimes to get food. And you ask yourself the question, why aren't they? Why and the resistance just attacking them? Right. I think a lot of it has to do with the fear of reprisals. And the airstrikes that will follow after that, but also, in some places, there's that factor of the power vacuum it's it's better from some people's perspectives to keep the military in some places while they discuss who gets what and once they've finished those discussions and there's agreements then they can they can take out that base.

Host 58:52

That's just insane I have so many questions about that that are just running through my mind saying that I mean, first I just want to clarify you're depicting an image of a various fighting groups that are each with their own bands and motivations and a an outpost of soldiers that are in active conflict and combat and somehow within this fighting that's taking place the soldiers are like, Well Can Can you give us just a few hours to stop the fighting because we need to go buy some cooking oil and rice and eggs or something in the market. And then once we get back safely, we can resume our little conflict and that's I guess that's that's the first question I'll leave with is that the picture that you're painting.

Lorcan Lovett 59:38

Yeah, but not not as instant as okay, we're going to stop like in you know, that story from World War One, whether German and English or just stop on Christmas Eve or wherever to play football. It's not like that, from my understanding, and it's not active conflict every day either. That comes to develop an understanding of we're not we're not shooting shooting each other every Day, but we can shoot each other every day. If this side doesn't get this, right, well, that doesn't get that. So there has to be some communication going on, because everybody's speaking the same language. So, not as extreme as Okay, stop, okay, go to the market, okay, continue the combat, but an understanding that it feels very unsustainable the situation. But in order to prevent huge human and building losses during that time, there needs to be something like local communication between the actors on the ground until like the bigger picture develops, and then either side will make a move.

Host 1:00:45

The other thing I'm thinking, as you say this, as you talk about the power of vacuum, there's, I hear that with an optimistic year and a pessimistic year. And the pessimistic year that I hear that through is those kinds of military apologists that we've heard so often throughout the years, and the generations of, well, this, they're they're just they're too big to fail. And they always have to have some hand in the country. And if they were to, if you were to remove them, then the vacuum that would develop winning golf, everything in flames. And that's kind of a justification, why they need to be there in some form. And so the pessimistic year that I'm hearing that end, is kind of and I could hear those apologies listening and not even saying yes, yes, yes. This is why we keep saying the military needs to have a role in the country's future and why they can't go away. And even these in this dramatic story of even these, these different units that all have a similar shared goal of the military being toppled are not toppling certain military positions that they very well could, because they're afraid of this power vacuum. So that the it's kind of justifying that pessimistic view, the optimistic view I want to balance that with is there's another way to hear what you you said. And this might be optimistic, trending towards idealistic naivete. And that's what I wanted to get your view on the same? Well, actually, what you're saying is that is not that that these military outposts and positions need to remain there forever, and that the strong man and needs to exist in some ways because these groups can't come together, what you're saying is that they this needs to be delayed as this long process is continuing. And they're coming to understanding they're working towards the federal democracy that they all want. And that once they come into harmony, and hold hands and understand how they can all work together, then in harmony, they'll go and topple those bases and be able to control the country in a peaceful and organized manner. So these are two extremes, the optimistic and pessimistic way to take this in maybe both of them are too extreme for the accurate interpretation of how we should derive meaning from what you shared, can you respond to your your view on on what this means and kind of a larger narrative of Myanmar.

Lorcan Lovett 1:02:54

So when discussing various local situations, and everywhere is different everywhere will have its own unique set of dynamics between the military and the resistance actors in that area, we should make very clear that you and I will agree, and also the people on the ground understand the problems began with the military, and the problems are exasperated by the military. And ultimately, the only resolution to this big problem is when the military goes. So the fact that some military bases continue to exist, although the resistance could probably capture them in some areas, is not testament to the military, keeping the country together at all. They're on a journey, the resistances of figuring out what the future looks like, from village to township to state or region to a country as a whole. So there's, there's in my opinion, there's no argument about the that you know, about the military, keeping the country together in any way at all. They're the ones who have caused all of this carnage and people on, you know, ordinary people on the ground, understand that more than any of us do. My thoughts on that is, it's because it's better to discuss things while there's not a temptation there to quickly pounce on something that becomes available. And I think that that's the mature and better way of approaching it. And there are a lot of wise commanders on the ground. And they understand that as well. So well, that's a reason why they're doing it. The reason why I know this is because they told me it right. So like they'd rather discuss things with all of the various actors outside of the military, before taking actions and leaving an opening for future conflict. Now, I will just use is a ton in theory again, as an example of what we've been discussing. And this is a very like sensitive topic. And I might get in trouble for talking about this too much. But it's important to have these real conversations about what's going on. So in tenant theory, you have the can use brigade for, which is the biggest force around there. And then you have the PDF, which I guess is like the the second biggest force, the PDF themselves have got some divisions around there as well. But we can say that the PDF or overall like the energies I'm doing in that area. Now, those some of those PDF leaders come from an NLP background, and they bring a lot of baggage with them in terms of relations with the Korean Aranda. So when they're presented with the possibility of wiping out the military in that area, they need to discuss things beforehand about who gets what, and about where the territorial lines are marked between between the villages and who administers what. So, again, I think that tenant by region will see a lot more conflict soon. I just really hope that those conversations are happening before the military is completely wiped out around those areas, or before they're pushed just to the towns. Now both sides also have legitimate concerns. The PDF around there are saying, hey, well, let me start first by saying both sides have a common enemy. And the KLA have really helped the PDF by training them at the beginning in 10, in theory, and also providing some weapons and selling them these days. And I believe that they can work things out. And I really hope they can. But the PDF of frustrated with the cannoli, because they feel like they have abided by the National ceasefire agreement, and and have not attacked the military as much as they would have hoped and have not supported them. During the the peace process. In Myanmar, the National ceasefire agreement or NCAA was this very important landmark event where some important ethnic gun groups and the Myanmar military signed up to an agreement that they wouldn't attack each other. And it was seen as this step forward for Myanmar, and, you know, a partial enter one of the longest running civil wars in the world. But it was a Florida agreement. I think there were about 15 groups all together who signed up to it. And it was completely undermined by the military coup on the first of February. So if you're interested in the ceasefire agreement, you can you can check it out online. But after the coup, it was made redundant, yet, there are PDF who think that the Korean national union in southern Myanmar are still abiding by that flawed and redundant agreement. And it's a source of frustration. There are also reports of brigade fours, previous business involvements, which are questionable in the revolution. And so, the PDF one brigade for to help them more with the fight. Now, on the other side of things, the Korean have been subjected to violence and suppression by the military for forever, right around there for decades and decades, and now, all of a sudden, the ethnic Bhama need help. And the colonel is expected to give it right when they they didn't really have the acknowledgement or help in the past that they needed. So why should they be the ones to give it now is, is what some of them kind of think, right? There's, it's a very complicated picture around that, as you know. Yeah. So they need to resolve those differences and come to a common understanding and agree to control over the territory and over the natural resources like the metal mines in those areas, so that they can move forward and take up the military there and Have the Keanu has seven different brigades, each with their own unique relationship with a resistance in that area. The it was described to me by somebody on the ground that the the big ship of the Kenya brigade for is turning, and it's turning towards combat with the military. And I believe that that's going to be ultimately, I hope it will be ultimately a positive thing for relations between the KU and the PDF in that area. Now, the NLD MPs are facing criticism around there, because they believe that they have a mandate. And their mandate has transcended the the parliament from which they were ousted to become an militia leaders. And now, instead of carrying pens in Parliament, they've got ak 40, sevens, and, and they're commanded like hundreds or sometimes 1000s of fighters, but they don't have as much military experience, obviously, as the keyano leaders around. So there's a lot of voices from PDF and KLA to say, Hey, hang on a sec, let's spend our time becoming a very disciplined army before we take the next step. But there's part of that PDF there who just want revenge now, which again, is totally understandable. They want to fight the military ASAP, they don't want to let things continue to the point where people lose sight of the ultimate goals, because ethnic gun groups have been fighting the military for so long, that sometimes the leadership's can lose sight of why they're doing it for. So they don't want to fall into that trap, and they want to attack now. Now now. So that's another source of tensions. And this mandate that the NLD MPs believed that they have around there is questionable. When that election was held under a military drafted constitution, the 2008 constitution, how far do you want the revolution to go? Do you want the revolution to stop at the 2008 constitution? And get the NLD back in government because they were elected? Or do you want this to be a full blown revolution that goes much deeper than that? And completely gets rid of the Constitution? In which case? No, you don't have a mandate? Because that was that was held under a military drafted constitution. So you can go for an election again, and you probably will win it, hopefully. Okay, go for it. But for now have to decide how far this revolution is gonna go? It's another source of tensions around that area, and probably one that's been replicated and other areas as well.

Host 1:12:57

So if I were to ask you a really impossible theoretical, theoretical question, but I'll ask anyway, if the military were to fall today, and there they were to dissolve, pick your poison, your reason why the military suddenly ceases to exist any form that we know it, the entire country is open for the taking. What What would you anticipate the challenges would be at that point? And this is obviously a hotly debated question among experts, some of them again, on the optimistic side that are predicting these, this kind of solidarity like we've never seen before, which is very true. And this does work towards wanting to create a federal charter and structure so that this situation will not happen in the future. We also hear a lot about that, and the more pessimistic side of the the extraordinary complexities and challenges that they face us. So if, if that scenario were to happen today, what what kind of challenges and complexities and concerns do you would you have in that immediate post coup reality?

Lorcan Lovett 1:14:05

Yeah, I mean, that the endless and they're kind of beyond my capability, right, a video, articulating or understanding every area of Myanmar will have its own set of challenges, as do you think that the communities in Myanmar strong does it have a strong sense of community? In general? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think that that can really work in favor in a situation where the military completely collapses, because people know how to look after each other and how to sustain small villages and towns, while not falling into anarchy and chaos, or like violent anarchy. So in that sense, I would I would hope that things could be you know, not too bad. But I don't think that the resistance overall is ready. for that situation, yet, I think that things are happening at the right time at the right speed.

Host 1:15:09

You've talked about going into certain townships or even certain villages. And having I think you the number you referenced was eight different fighting groups that were that that were involved in some form in particular villages, do you? Did you sense a certain tension between that number of representatives and the dialogue and communication that needed to happen? Or was it pretty fluid?

Lorcan Lovett 1:15:31

It was pretty fluid. In that case, I would say that tensions went to bad unless we're talking about the bigger groups like, as we discussed with the candidate in PDF, again, I don't want I don't want to say that they're on the brink of fighting, but they definitely, and hopefully, we'll need to have more discussions. But overall, especially if people are from the same area, the tensions aren't too bad. So if you are in the Calculate army, and I am in the Korean National Liberation Army, perhaps were from the same village. So when we meet each other, we're not represented as two different groups were two people from the same village that can talk like that. So it's not too bad in those areas. But I think in other areas, that might be a bit more tense.

Host 1:16:25

So going to this going back to this discussion of the color, the color of the places that you experienced, and sometimes that's gotten the stories. The other kind of color question I want to ask you, is the the sense you get from the motivation of those who joined the PDF, because for those listeners that haven't followed a lot of the Bomar that join the PDF, initially, they were most of them were coming from a background that had nothing to do with fighting in this kind of capacity coming from, you know, university students or it or just working menial jobs and restaurants or hotels, or it or taxi drivers or whatever. And many of them then went up to take an armed rebellion. And when we hear about the formation of the PDFs, there's something generalized very much as the people that are fighting for restoring democracy and human rights. And I don't want any way to minimize that. I think that is what drove a lot of the initial formation and activity and something really to be allotted that I don't know how many countries we would see that it's, it's really quite remarkable, the degree to which people were putting their lives on the line to try to create a better future for themselves. But I also want to give shape to the to varied reality and the reality that's gone forward past the initial motivations and, and incentives to want to, to move in this direction. And that as this conflict has stretched out, when you've been around different PDF fighters and gotten to know them, and seeing how they're organized, and who's coming in, and you've already talked about those that kind of the the pressure that some have to join, and the ways to try to resist in other ways and the expectation and those types of things. What kind of feel Can you tell us about? Why beyond the the general themes that we hear, which I'm sure have some truth in them. But beyond that, to give more of a varied and colorful reality of what you're experiencing? What you're hearing? How would you describe those individual fighters, why they're there day after day, why they're continuing to do what they do the sacrifices and hardships that they're facing? What's the range of feelings and motivations you get?

Lorcan Lovett 1:18:35

Think the defining feature of that is this belief that the military has has to be overthrown, and that they have to take control of their own destinies in their own communities. And also the kind of that brutal acknowledgment that if the military are in control, then everybody's futures are down the drain. And you'll constantly have lives of fear, and be exposed to kidnap and torture and everything else that the military brings with it. But if you're an, say, 18 year old boy or girl, and you're in the middle of this revolution, what are the reasons to other than this, like, kind of commitment to overthrowing the military would make you join your group? Well, an ungroup ethnicity is important in a lot of areas and that that can be the driving factor. Peer pressure is important. If you are, say, 1819 20, and you're not joining a group, why, what why, especially if you're a young man, are you a coward waiting and joining this group and fighting with the rest of us? You know, what have you sacrificed when you're trying to continue with your life while we are putting our lives on the line every day to overthrow the military element? I think of peer pressure there as well. Also, I think there's a drive to want to just like, you want respect, right, you want respect as a young person to. And the way to get respect in that environment is to be a fighter is to go out there and to prove yourself in the ultimate, the ultimate test, which is having to, for instance, run towards a trench, and try to kill as many soldiers as you can. And once you do that, you know, you've proved yourself really in the highest way, for some people, I think.

Host 1:20:40

I want to ask you a question asked a couple days ago and get your answer on on air. It's a question about your own your own trips into Myanmar, and a time when you face great danger. And the reason why I want to ask this question is not just to highlight your own personal story of the the the conflict and the fear that was happening to you personally, but because there's this, as we'll learn and your answer and go into, it's not just what happened to you, but it's seen how you responded to this scary situation differently than everyone else, we've been living in that kind of context for so long, which brings out which is another way to bring out the color of the trauma and the and, and the trauma that's not happening just at one scary moment. But that's happening over extended extended periods and goes into this. This, this, this trauma that so many are facing now, both the civilian population as well as the as well as those taking up arms. Yeah, so

Lorcan Lovett 1:21:44

I'll throw a caveat at the beginning to say that I'm not a brave person, as you'll find out from the story. And I don't know much about military affairs. And if the situation is right, and if you can assess the risks and trust the people that you're with, because we're living through historic times, and we should witness that as much as we can from the ground. Like, it doesn't matter whether you're from Myanmar or foreigner, if your job is journalism, and you can do it, you have to go on the ground. I think that, that gives you a much more holistic view of things. So in in that situation that you referenced, we had just finished a long hike into demo. And I bought the wrong boots, because I'm an idiot. And it was my it was like my second trip and it was a bigger one inside. And so I hated myself. During the walk. I bought these big European boots that had ripped off the skin from the top of my feet. And so then I had to wear my flip flops. But of course, the guys around me are like bouncing around and their flip flops jumping up mountains, and it's like awkward. So we we get to where we needed to go. And then there's a big meeting of resistance figures in the forest. We were looking around as well. There's a lot of people here. Anytime there's a lot of people, you're always a bit wary about, Oh, can we be a target. And then we see a surveillance drone come past the commander who are aware that the time akoni army commander was very composed, and very experienced. So he directed us after a short ride in the truck to come out of the truck and to go on either side of a road down to a dried out ravine. And so we follow his instructions. And I get down to this kind of watering hole hole. And I think oh, that's a perfect place where I can wash my my feet and like you know, put some cream on them or whatever. And the drone goes away. So I look towards the commander and I'm like, Oh, great. The drones gone. I go to the water. But he looks over. He's like no, no. Basically, they're getting our location so that they can better direct the artillery. So as I'm washing my feet, suddenly the artillery comes with linen. And then there's an explosion. And then the next explosion is a bit closer. And I'm crouched down in the middle of a kind of small group of craniotomy soldiers, and the soldiers are 19 years old, I'd say. And it's their first ever experience of combat, just like me. So we're all kind of in the same boat in there. But I didn't know that I thought these might be kind of like young veterans. And I look over to one on my left hand side, this young guy who I've been become friendly with, and I kind of plead with my eyes for some kind of direction from him, but he just crosses his hands and starts to pray. So I do exactly the same thing as well and I Kevin, that's the plan. Let's do that. So I start praying as well. And then the next Bond comes in even closer the next challenge. And I look over and I see this like amazing little spot in between the two big rocks. And that's my dream. Airbnb right now I want to be in between, I want to be inside the rock. So barefoot, I sprint across, and I hide in between these two rocks. And there's a few more shellings and after that it stops. And it seems everything's fine. The commander comes up and he says, Hey, we're gonna you're gonna you guys are gonna have to stay here for a while because the situation's unpredictable and volatile. So we say, yeah, no problem. I'm, I'm still crashing between the rocks. This is like my safe place now. And shortly after a candy F soldier comes to see us. And he's like, so nonchalant. We can still hear the Shaolin but it's further away now. And he's so nonchalant, and almost fatalistic in his his, his kind of vibe of, you know, laying in the middle of this, like trade out ravine without much caution to the dangers that are surrounding us. But yeah, it's something that made me quickly realize that, first of all, I'm a total coward. And secondly, these, these guys, and also just normal villagers as well, they're living with this danger every day, every second of every day. And you can't live in that environment and constantly be afraid, you get you get tired and bored, I think of being afraid every day. So these guys, girls are incredibly brave, and then in almost nonchalance, sometimes in the face of danger, because they're living with it all of the time.

Host 1:26:55

And you talked about meeting people that just had trapnell all over themselves, and that had had had any number of injuries, you already referenced the people with the post traumatic stress that you that would have strange tics or other other kinds of things that we're working through.

Lorcan Lovett 1:27:10

Yeah, yeah. There was. Many fighters, like anybody who's reported from karate or anywhere else in Myanmar, would have seen many injured fighters and injured civilians, often through landmine blasts, or through Shallan. If they are caught by the military, more often than not, they don't come back. They're tortured to death. But yeah, that's just a horrible fact of life out there. So you'll meet a lot of amputees. There was one lady actually, who I met in Kearney State in an IDP camp. And she kind of brought the realities to learn to life for me about what civilians have to go through. She was just going home one day, from an IDP camp to check on her house. And she went to the bathroom outside her house before she was leaving. And there was a landmine by the bathroom that she she said that she thought the military planted it there. And she lost part of her arm and her leg. And I went to go see her and have a cup of tea. And she was smiling and joking. She was with her elderly mother and his son. I was thinking, wow, this lady's like, incredible, you know, she's still able to have a joke and make me feel really comfortable there. And I was trying to trying to make her feel comfortable before the interview. And then during the interview, I asked her a question, and suddenly she just breaks down her face collapse, and she's just, she's, she's in tears. There's moments like that where I think like, what am I actually doing? You know what, why am I actually it makes me question why I'm there as well. Have I come here as some random foreigner, just to make this lady who's been through hell, relive that hell and cry just so I can have like a sentence or two, in an article. Like, is it even worth that? And also, obviously, I get to go back to Thailand or wherever, and be nice and cozy and safe. This lady's like still living in this makeshift hut after losing her home and her lens. And, yeah, I don't know, sometimes now, when I'm doing stories, and I, I just don't want to. It's I don't want to see people. I don't want to bring people to tears. You know? Sometimes it can be good for stories that you have to bring up the emotion. But these days, if someone's crying because of questions that I'm asking I don't like so much.

Host 1:29:55

That's that's really heavy and I understand the burden that you're And I also just want to be one voice that I think other listeners that are following along up to now would have some sense of your character and your your your integrity, as you're trying to report on this and feel that and want to express a thank you and gratitude for everything that you've been doing and for how you've been telling the story and integrating into places where as you say, if you're a journalist, foreign or Burmese, but especially foreign, then and you have a way to go here and report that's, that's, you infer it almost beyond a professional duty, it's almost a kind of ethical duty to come and bring that story and for whatever the burden is that as you navigate these, these ethics and safety and everything else, as you're able to navigate that balance, I think, to whatever degree you're able to go and make these relationships and get these stories and bring this awful reality to the ears and eyes of people who need to know it, I think I say thank you, I think I think others would say that as well, with a sense of, of compassion for the heaviness and the burden of what you have to go through to, to get across the finish line and some of the stories that you're doing. And that also leads to wonder, you know, as I'm hearing you talk and hearing all of these firsthand reports of sometimes of conflict zones, and, and, and what we're seeing in terms of different fighting forces and the lay of the land in some way, he's talking about the color of what people are living through and how this country has been going through this devastation for three and a half years. I just can't help but think what I've been thinking myself for three and a half years, which is why why does this conversation we're having Why does it feel so isolated? You know, why? Why is it not something that we're seeing on the front of so many pages and being followed just human drama that's unfolding and a place of enormous geopolitical importance on top of that, and this, this unfolding story that is, that has so many twists and turns, and that has a people and a humanity that's living through it. It's I know, I'm just I know, I'm just I'm preaching to the choir, I know, I'm just shouting at a wall. But I just, this was something I would say a lot in 2021 that I've kind of let go of, but it's just it's it's coming up in me again, hearing you say this, and there's this sense of frustration and exasperation. And, you know, as much as I think I've accepted that reality, it still comes home at times like this.

Lorcan Lovett 1:32:37

Yeah. So first of all, thank you for the thanks. But I will kind of like, politely reject that a little bit. Because those of us who follow me more closely, we're all doing what, what we can we're all ultimately in this together. And my own tiny role in this, I doubt the use of a lot anyway. So what we can do is just do what we think is best, as much as we can. But yeah, I mean, we know who the significant players are in this, we know the people who are sacrificing the most. And those are the people who are living inside Myanmar during these times, and bravely standing up to the military. And the trips I've taken and will never have been possible without the bravery of people. And I sometimes think what I would have done in that situation, when you got when you've got such a violent juggernaut like the military facing you, would you have the the bravery and the guts to say like, No, I'm going to, I don't know, hide in the jungle for a bit, I'm going to learn how to make a bomb. I'm going to learn how to fight back. I'm not sure I'd be able to do that. But people are doing it. And because of that I'm able to go out there and then meet other people who are living out there. I don't think that we can get caught up on this idea that the world isn't paying enough attention to Myanmar. Because I think it's a fruitless endeavor. I think that we need to just focus on what we do. Like you're doing an excellent job in what you do. You're bringing a lot of different people together. You're having conversations which have taught me a lot personally through listening to the podcast. And you know, your your, you've said yourself, you're developing now that you're becoming better and better. And it's a really valuable contribution to what's happening. Again, without that, you know, it's good for me because I've been exposed to a lot of different voices because of it. So we can all just do in our little way what we're doing. We don't have control over the other things. If I try to convince an editor to run a Myanmar story, and they say no, for whatever reason, something else is happening in the world or they don't like the angle or Yeah, too much color probably. That's it right? Yeah, you just got to, you've just got to try again somewhere else, or you've got to think of another way that you can do it.

Host 1:35:03

The other thing that strikes me in that story is just the open display of emotion. And for those that don't know, Myanmar society, so well just open displays of emotion is, especially with someone not close to you is is not is not something you usually see just in Burmese culture. And so I, I, that's another thing that that strikes me about that experience is that is this some, this, these emotional breakdowns that you've been witnessing that are very normal and very human, but they're also just to highlight and underscore that there, they do stand out from, from what we know of typical Burmese culture that in in, in the care of one has in how one shows one's emotions in public places and to outsiders?

Lorcan Lovett 1:35:55

Yeah, and I think that's a good point, because the situations are so extreme that people are more likely to show their emotions even to a foreign stranger like myself. Which again, I don't forget, there's a I'll give you another quick story about a lady in Tenerife region, we can call it let's call her Sandra, because she didn't want her name to come out. She we met her in the back of her shop where she was appealing, beaten up, because her friend had hired her and a few months previous, so this lady is in her mid 50s. And she had a son who was a volunteer ambulance driver. Just because you live in a liberated area, it doesn't mean you're safe, you're always exposed to air strike and artillery. But if you need to go to a big hospital, chances are you need to go to a military controlled town. And his son was volunteer ambulance driver, bringing people from the liberated area to the hospital in the military controlled area. And it's difficult to make a living in the liberated area. So sometimes he would buy fish paste from the military control town, I'm going to be careful about where the locations and stuff and then resell the fish paste in their liberated area. And so one day he takes a patient to the this was only a few months ago to to the town, bass fish paste, and then drives it back. And it's stopped at a military checkpoint. And they look around his ambulance, they see the fish paste. And this guy actually wasn't resistance fighter, but they take him to a military base. And then they torture him to death for having fish paste in his ambulance. And so a few months later, we see we meet his mum. And again, she's incredibly generous to even talk to us about this experience. And she also is breaking down recalling it, because she didn't know what happened until about 17 days later, when they said hey, you should come they didn't let her take the body. Come see the body as if that was some kind of like, you know, generous gesture that they were making. But somebody had taken photos of this young man's body anyway, and it spread on Facebook. So before she actually saw his his, his face in person after he was killed. People told her because he'd seen photos of him on Facebook. And he was tortured. There was signs of torture on his body. But the soldier said, Oh no, he killed himself. And then they let her see the face. And then they burned his body. And, and you know, by the way, her younger son was hiding in a monastery because of the conscription. And her older son was disabled and needed full time care which she was given. And she didn't and her husband had passed away a long time ago. So the volunteer ambulance driver through reselling the fish paste was supporting her as well. This is this is by the way. And the reason why I don't name her other places is because she might need to go to that hospital one day you never know. Right? This is one one small, terribly tragic, but by no means uncommon story from these areas. Everybody has their own terrible tragedy, which is been caused by the military.

Host 1:39:39

Another piece of color I want to ask about from the communities you've been in, you've referenced this in some side stories, but just want to give it its due attention and that's the presence of women and there are women fighters. There are women leaders you've you've referenced there there are young women that are not going to school as they should be but going into combat this is another sign of the full scale revolution. And that we see Burmese society undergoing. But I just want to give you a chance to comment on what you've seen of shifting gender roles of women empowerment of gender equality, or the opposite of it, if you've also come across that how you would, how your experience has been in what you've encountered?

Lorcan Lovett 1:40:18

But that, overall, there's definitely positive progress and shifts towards more empowerment and liberation for women in Myanmar society, in my own small experiences that I've seen, in Karenni, state, I went to visit an all female unit who were patrolling around the frontline. And they were, some of them had been on sniper duties, the men were expected to do more combat, and sometimes on patrol, they would still be joined by male or female fighters as well. They said that they'd also experienced some harassment among the male resistance fighters making comments. But they said overall, it was becoming better and a good step forward. The the women that I've encountered in the resistance usually carry out medic duties. Some of them do engage in active combat, but to a lesser extent to the males. Sometimes that might be because they choose to go for medic duties or for another role, which is slightly behind the frontline. Others are very keen to fight and they really want to like they really want to take out the military, you know, you can't really stop. I mean, the men can't really stop women like that when they when they want to be trained. And they want to take them out. And it's a huge asset, right for the resistance as well. So yeah, that was incur any state. There's I've seen women in leadership roles on the ground, like that NLD MP that I mentioned in Tanintharyi. region as well. And, you know, there's a lot of old taboos in Myanmar, especially if a woman is okay, here's, here's one, I might get this incorrect, you will know better than I think. But if you are hanging, laundry, dry, washing on the line, you can put the men's clothes next to the women's clothes. Is that correct? Yeah. So I was with female photographer in a PDF camp. And we were washing our clothes. And I told the female photographer Oh, hang on a sec. Let me go check if it's okay that you can, you can put your clothes up on the line next to the boys clothes, right? Which sounds bad. But I'm like, Hey, we should be sensitive. And let's be careful. So I go to the PDF. And I say, Oh, do you mind if the photographer puts the closer and he in his head? This is the future, you're in a PDF area. And none of that stuff matters anymore. Now, this is the future Myanmar. And yeah, she was allowed to, you know, so. So we are seeing like, shifts like that are happening as well.

Host 1:43:16

That's extraordinary. And I want to move next to a really fascinating topic that we have not referenced so far. And that is, is a developing story. So this might develop further before this episode comes out. And that's the presence of foreign fighters and how you've been tracking that. Yes.

Lorcan Lovett 1:43:34

So in every major conflict were the kind of clear actors, it's expected that foreigners will come to fight like there has been in Ukraine and Syria. And even I don't know, going back to the Spanish Civil War. And way before that, there's a huge history with it. So it surprised me that it wasn't prevalent in Myanmar. And so I've been keeping track of that for like maybe a year and a half. There are there have been individual foreigners who have gone into the jungles to mostly train resistance in forces since the coup very early on, especially around Eastern Myanmar. But they've been doing that since the 90s and the 80s, probably the 70s. And that's kind of well documented. There seems to be an uptick in foreign fighter activity recently. In western and eastern Myanmar, in Chin State. There are at the moment, two foreigners who we can discuss a UK and US citizen who are fighting with alongside the PDF Zealand. There's probably other foreigners out there and there's also been chin Americans who have returned from America to fight for the resistance. I can't go into too much detail about some of the other cases for various reasons. But in the east of Myanmar, there is a new initiative to form a fight foreign fighter Legion, it will be initially a small group encompassing the US, UK, Canadian and Australian military. militaries, I should make very clear they're not government, the government's have no say over this. They're individuals in an individual capacity, who are veterans of these militaries deciding to help out. And as far as I'm aware, so far, there's not a mercenary aspect to it, it's more just experienced soldiers who want to participate in the combat and train the resistance forces, after learning about the story, where demonstrators were using slingshots, and then buying guns, and then standing up to this chanter. And they're inspired by that, there's going to be different cases everywhere. So that's currently taking place in the East. And but that's kind of a developing story. So that's why I don't want to say too much about that. But there has been a ex British military soldier who's already been out there, who I've spent three days with recently talking about things. So it's definitely one to watch. And by the time this comes out, perhaps more will become clear from that. But let me just tell you quickly about before this development of legit more legitimate foreign fighters were coming out. And we're living in times where there's been big wars from Afghanistan, to, you know, against ISIS in Syria and Iraq, and then more recently, Ukraine. So all of these people have been involved in those kinds of wars, right. So, so they can, there's an element, whether the scene where the next where the next big thing is, as well, you know, especially if they're used to that adrenaline and combat, I think it's probably difficult to just do a normal civilian life. After that. There's been some very dodgy efforts, I would say that I've encountered. One is there was a splinter group in eastern Myanmar not incur any state where I discovered there was a foreign fighter who had left, just before I had arrived at the camp. He didn't leave because of me, but he just happened to be there. And I got in touch with him. And he had like, some like, weird, anti semitic signal profile picture. And I was like, What is going on? So I tried to interview him, and he was very actors. And then the next time I looked, he had a swastika on his profile picture, and how it's like, oh, boy, what is going on? So I tried again, and then he stopped talking to me. And if he listens to this, he'll probably block me forever. But I will, I will continue to look into that. There was another crazy thing where a group in Florida run by a guy who couldn't make it into the American military, and had volunteered with the kids. He he'd set up this military camp in Florida, to train people, people who wanted to fight in various wars like Ukraine. And he would charge them maybe $1,000 for a one week course. And he was making Tiktok videos, very fancy, snappy, you know, join the PDF with like, somebody does 60s rock music in the background. And so I saw one of these tech talk or instagram videos, and I contacted him. And he seemed very keen on the publicity. And so I interviewed him twice, talking over, you know, different things, and getting to know his background a bit. And it seemed a bit fishy. And then I said, Oh, can I talk to one of these guys, you will send out and he said, Yeah, so he puts me in touch with this young guy. Guy, I bet not name anybody, but he's 22 also couldn't make it into the American military. And so he told me that he wants to fight for democracy and Myanmar. Neither of them seem to have like a very deep knowledge about what's going on. But I mean, that's understandable. Myanmar is a complicated place. And they said that they were going to send out like this, this foreign fighter unit to two, two. I won't get into the details, but to a part of Myanmar. And I was thinking these guys have no combat experience. And they're in their early 20s. And they're going to go out and meet these young kids and Myanmar who have already had like three years of gritty fighting. And what are they going to do? Right? They're going to be a liability, or they're going to tell them or the Myanmar guys what to do on the ground. That's crazy run. It turned out actually, I got in touch with one of the PDF members who was talking with the these Florida guys. And the PDF guy said that this outfit had promised, experienced grizzled US veterans to send out into the combat. That wasn't the case. It was like it was guys in their early 20s, who couldn't get into the American military and paid $1,000 for a seven day combat course. So it was a total recipe for disaster. Fortunately, it didn't happen. There was there was some fallout between the the two sides. But we have to be careful about things like that. Right? We have to try and keep an eye on it. Now now it seems a there's some more serious efforts. And what do you think about that? Do you think it would be a good thing for foreigners to fight alongside the resistance, given that we've come this they've come this far right, their resistance without barely any work? No international health. You've seen the progress and the evolution of the revolution. And it's, it's so crazy that they've been able to do this all by themselves, and are now getting the junta on the backfoot. without any help from their owners. Yeah, but now, the janitors slide and the foreigners are coming in more. What do you think of the consequences of that for Myanmar?

Host 1:51:46

Yeah, that's a question. I'm just laughing as you say that, because it kind of reminds me like when your partner finishes cleaning the house, or when they're in the last little bit of it, you walk in and say, like, anything I can help you with. It's clear that, that you've come just at the right time. I, if anything, I would say that I am, I am surprised Virgina shocked that it's gone this long without more of this developing. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist in the sense of thinking that that this has been happening in some form that we just haven't heard on, because of so you know, the way that social media and journalism and everything operates, I just don't think that really big stories can be under, you know, totally under wraps without getting some whiffs of them. And you know, whether one is coming in with a concern of democracy and human rights and wanting to fight the good fight, like in the Spanish Civil War, which my grandfather also wanted to go and fight, and that was, you know, back in back in the day of that, of that conflict, or whether it's people just just wanting to look for the next conflict and have an adventure or be in a combat zone, I would say that I'm surprised that we haven't seen more of this. It's a natural fit. And so it is interesting that either, you know, well, maybe it's happened in some form that's just been deeply, deeply under wraps, or even people like us that I think are pretty inside with the kinds of things that that we hear and know, even when we don't report on them that, you know, maybe it went, you know, far under the radar, or maybe it was, maybe you just chalk this up to Myanmar, just another example of Myanmar being in the basket of really, you know, off the just kind of forgotten, you know, as it's been, they call that as a, you know, the World War Two and the Burma front was known as the Forgotten front. And, and, and so it just that continuing on today, even though it kind of staggers the mind that, that something of this nature would not attract those kinds of participants in some form coming over. But you know, to get to answering your question, is it a good thing or not, I also have to be very careful that it was not looking like it was attached to something larger than it was. And, and as we also know about the complexity, just the complexity of the situation is so absolutely mind boggling that it's difficult to imagine many foreigners really knowing the ropes enough and hopefully being humble enough to have any sense of all the different groups that are their ethnic and fighters and everything else. So I think I think it's one of those, I think to answer your questions, one of those, those usual answer you give me a more questions of it's complicated, that it could go any number of ways, but I tend to in some ways, you've kind of answered the question yourself by what you embedded into the very question that they've come this far on their own. And one of the things that I would say that that several guests on this podcast that have come before have in looking at everything that the Burmese people have done themselves have have made the comment that what which I think really, really stands in my mind and be one of the harness their voice in answering this question, this comment that, because they have led the Revolution by themselves for this long when they've been counted out and even worked against by not just the neighboring countries, but even the frickin un, you know, they're not doing them any favors. If, if they're really moving towards achieving this victory, the victory is all their own, they don't owe anyone anything they get to, by virtue of of being able to defeat this cancer in their society, they and doing it without having required the help and the dependents of any other country where, you know, that would come with certain kinds of conditions and strings attached, they have earned the right up to this point to be able to continue this journey and hopefully bring the solidarity among the extraordinary complex circumstances of different groups, to try to forge their new reality in their own way, which hopefully, will be harmonious and inclusive of all the groups that are there. And so I do think there's something to be said about the the independence, that of writing their own story, and hopefully continuing to, to go on this road of immense, immense challenges that are ahead and to be able to, to continue to, to harness their own spirit and their own vision and what they're trying to create and asking, and really, what I would like to see this probably gets to the core of my answer is asking for the help that they need, and hopefully getting it because you know, so little of the time, they've actually gotten anything that they've asked for from the outside community. But in a perfect world, I'd like to see them asking for whether it's anything from economic policy to civil society to infrastructure, they need to set up to whatever else that hopefully it could be a position where they're able to, to articulate what specifically they need and articulate it to the right group that will come in, without any of those other strings attached, and just help them help them to give trainings that are centered in local context and not copy and paste from some other training manual. And give them the tools to be able to construct that themselves. Because anyone who knows anything about Myanmar knows that if you spend any ounce of time trying to teach a skill or a practice, effectively, that's immediately in front of your eyes implemented and used in in with a gratitude and a hunger of wanting to learn that, that you don't see in other places. And so I think, whether you're talking foreign fighters that are coming in and doing a specialized skill or training and to the right group, or whether it's something larger, I think, to be able to articulate and ask for it and then get something applicable to the future they want to build, where and the key thing here is that they own it, that that they're able to take that skill was not behind the firewall of a so called expert who is going to be the one directing and some authority, but is is shared openly and generously so that they can then take that skill, and use it in the way that they know their country and people best. That's what I mean, that's the work I was doing in Myanmar when I was a trainer at the American Center and the the kind of in any capacity that that work is being done. That's something that I wholeheartedly support. And, you know, towards those ends as well. I know, I know, I'm the guest. And you're asking the question, and I'm going off and these other directions, but that's where I would also like to go in podcast training and to be able to develop it, I think this is a very interesting medium of the kinds of discussions that are able to have in in this space. And I know there are Burmese and ethnic podcasts that are cropping up, but I'm a big fan of being able to, to help provide those trainings and those skills and those perspectives so that they can run with it. Because once they have those skills, we just step out of the way. And they're able to, again, whether it's podcast, train, or whatever else, they're able to take those skills, and then use them to build and forge the kind of community and journey they want to continue to be on.

Lorcan Lovett 1:59:03

Yeah, definitely. It's it's support without interference that's needed. And I think that it's unbelievable how far they've come without that kind of foreign help or interference. And yeah, it's in the long term is better. That unfortunately, the sad and predictable thing is that these foreigners who are coming out in an individual capacity, again, I don't have like a judgment on them. I think if they want to help the resistance and that, you know, there's a lot of good to that. But the way our world works, there'll be a lot more media attention on Myanmar, if a foreign fighter unit is formed, which could be good for Myanmar as well. You know, it's a warzone. Foreigners might die out there too. There's already foreigners who have been injured in Myanmar. It's not well publicized. I think that there's journalists. And also, there's fighter foreign fighters who have been badly hurt and who have been. As far as I'm aware, no one's been killed yet, but have been able to, to be evacuated out of there. So it'll be a matter of time. But my thing was, okay, it's kind of a juicy story, right? A foreign fighter or foreign fighters going to Myanmar? It's a juicy story, it's a one off story, perhaps, is it worth me actually, like, add into that sensationalism of it? Or is it actually the beginning of a pattern? Because these guys who have shared combat experience in Ukraine or in Syria, or perhaps even in Afghanistan, they're going to share with their networks? Okay, we've we've done eight weeks on the ground in Myanmar, and here's what it's like. And then perhaps there'll be more and more foreigners will come? And in that sense, it's not so sensational. And yeah, then it becomes an actual pattern, which is definitely worth reporting on. So I've decided to well, at the moment, I haven't done anything about it, but I probably will do soon, and try to keep track of it. But yeah, those guys in Florida, I'll just add, they even made their own Myanmar, Foreign Legion combat uniform, with their own little logos to try to sell to people on Instagram and Tiktok. So it was kind of a scam. You know, it was like it was about Mitch, they're just trying to push Mitch. On the other side, there's also foreigners who have been seen with helping the junta, white guys, you know, from Russia, there's, there's been reports, I've spoken to people who have been on the front line, and have said, Oh, one of my guys saw this white guy in his scope, when he was like, you know, on sniper duties, or under base. And he thinks that he's like a Russian trainer. Now that the Myanmar military is taken seriously, and developing more combat drone units, there's been reports that Russian trainers around Myanmar, helping the Myanmar military with combat drones. So, you know, there's activity on both sides when it comes to foreigners as well.

Host 2:02:22

I have just one more question on my side. And I know there's some things you want to share at the end of this. And thank you, again, so much for your generous time in this. And that's I want to circle back to something that you addressed we referenced at the beginning about the the concept of objective reporting, and your pushback against against what it means to be objective when you're facing just a real tyrannical, oppressive evil, I think we could use the word regime. And yet at the same time, there's also there when you're working with resistance fighters, everything's not always so peachy, and that there can be stories that need to be reported on. And this becomes, this becomes a challenge and knowing how to do because on one hand, you don't you don't you never in this kind of situation, you never want to do a both sides is you never want to be like well, this is happening on this side, this is happening on that side. So anything that's being reported, of concern on the resistance side, immediately falls into that concern area that this is this is trending towards both side ism. And then But then on the other hand, you as a journalist and someone being objective, you also want to have the right and the creative control to be able to share what you're seeing and hearing and finding objectively and there's and that's balanced with a people that have been oppressed and traumatized for all of these years, as we've described, and this vivid detail of what the civilian population has gone through 3 million, I think is the number of IDPs that are there right now. And just the unspeakable trauma on horror that we can go on and on and on with that have a desire to want to hear good news that they they they they don't want to hear about some problem with the other it's happening on the resistance side. They just want this military uprooted. And so how do you balance all of these countervailing forces in trying to figure out how you can when you have when there's something on the resistance side that is of a concern you think is important to know about and yet you you have this fear of both sides ism and also the the desire for good news and the probably the sympathy with those who are justifiably feeling that way. How do you figure out what to report and how to report it when it falls on that area? Yeah,

Lorcan Lovett 2:04:34

I think you have to rely on what you consider is newsworthy or not almost like first, that should be a priority. And sometimes when you're so absorbed into the dynamics of what's happening in Myanmar, and you can see the word from the trees, and it's easy to think oh, this is definitely a story or this isn't a story. But you have to kind of force yourself to zoom out and think, Okay, what is and isn't a story? And also like, what's my role? You know, because there are things that you, you can pursue and you see, and which as a journalist you probably should pursue. And then suddenly, there's a little voice. Oh, I mean, I'll be totally honest. There's been times where I've considered doing a story. And then there's been a voice saying, oh, perhaps this will be bad for the revolution, right? When the greater good is, is overcoming the new mind. But you have to kind of stop yourself, when you start thinking things like that, and actually think, what's my, my role in this? You know, am I an activist? Am I a fighter? No, I'm none of those things. And I believe that if you just try to report what's newsworthy in front of you, then those things can just be put to bed, because you're just doing your roller. But I would say that from the journalists perspective, because now more journalists are going out to Myanmar. And as we've seen some resistance groups have announced some like media guidelines and restrictions, which is normal for, you know, governments to do in in that respect to, we shouldn't just panic there and think, Oh, my God, there's a there's a media crackdown. But the journalist should understand what is at stake for the armed groups and the civilians, as you said, you know, people are throwing everything on the line, to run their country have a terrible dictatorship. If the journalist is worried about conditions, just don't bother going in the first place, because it will be mentally and physically challenging. And you might be severely injured or die. So journalists should do their homework and be prepared, and understand that you're entering a very complicated picture. So do as much research as you can for that. So you don't make some silly proposal, you don't cause problems for yourself that you could have avoided. But also the resistance should understand what journalism is. Journalism is not a mouthpiece for the PDF. It's not a mouthpiece for the CEOs or the arrows, or whoever. It's an independent take on what is happening. And sometimes that means interviewing people who the hosting party, for instance, may dislike. So there needs to be understandings, I think, on both sides about what's going on. As time goes on, I think we'll see more coverage from PDF areas. And so that will, that will present some problems in terms of the relationship between the PDF, the resistance and the media. Yeah, so Joe, I wanted to give a voice to a PDF commander who I have a lot of respect for. He's been around for a long time fight in the military. And he always has like very unique insights and makes me think about things in a different way. So he's got some concerns about what's happening on the ground at the moment, and he's on the ground, I won't say his name, and I won't say where he is, other than I can say, Eastern Myanmar. And, overall, when you talk to people like this on the ground, there's this question that you want to ask right, which you probably ask a lot of people, is the military going to collapse? Is the resistance going to win? It's like the most straightforward question, because we all want to know, like, we all want reassurances that the resistance will win. I have good news, he thinks that the resistance will win, or I perhaps should say he thinks that the military will collapse. He said that he's still very confident there's in his quote, no way that the military can turn the tables now on what's happening. But that doesn't mean that we, the resistance doesn't need strong leadership. His big his big point is that strong leadership that can understand that, you know, when it's not performing to tasks and to carry out their responsibilities, he says it's more important than ever. And it's more needed and Myanmar now. And every aspect of what's happening should be utilized towards the strengths of the resistance. For instance, if the resistance takes in a lot of POWs, or if they're taking the factors, they should their knowledge of the military should be utilized for the for the gains of the resistance. So it's good that he says that, that the resistance will likely still overcome and the He's a very realistic guy. So on the ground a lot, too, so to hear from him, should give us, you know, a bit of a boost in confidence as well. But he doesn't make any qualms about the challenges that the resistance are going through. There's a lot more I could go into, but I have to be careful about what to say and what not to say. To make sure that I don't kind of break his trust here as well. One really important thing that he finished on is, although this challenge of overcoming the military is monumental for the resistance right now, and so many people are suffering and dying to, to gain democracy for Myanmar, huge challenges lie on the horizon. According to this Commander, the biggest challenge is going to be the reintroduction of the fighters and people who have been deeply traumatized by the current conflict. In the future. He said that there will be severe PTSD, which is could become a serious and overwhelming issue to deal with, for Myanmar were, in his words, expression of feeling and emotion can be translated as taboos. And it has only minimal knowledge to deal with. So so so it's in his eyes, this is one of the most crucial things is that when these us are fight in the military, and in environments where there's been, in some cases, a lack of discipline in his words, and they've encountered various hardships, and they've probably done things which no human should have to do. These people will need to be reintroduced to society, and they would need education and training and a chance to get the opportunities that they missed out, because of the sacrifices they've made to deface the military in an incredibly brave way. They're also so to finish with his words, he said, we need to address these issues urgently, and initiate programs to manage these adverse impacts for the youths. So I think that as foreigners, we should see that as perhaps ways that we can help me in mind the future is by helping in any small way we can, where the healing process and the reintroduction process for all of these young people who have sacrificed their lives and opportunities to for the better of the country.

Host 2:12:39

That's extraordinary. That's I mean, that's quite a thing to end on, is that, that reality, it's something that's come up in previous interviews, but to hear a PDF commander, who is not just focused on the upcoming victory, but also aware of the devastation that lies ahead of a country that has just, I just don't even know how we conceptualize or understand the depth of trauma that has been that has been foisted upon, you know, the people and, and all of the stories that the anecdotes, you've heard anecdotes, I've heard that have of people that were living, quote, unquote, normal lives before 2021, that an absolute abnormal, accepting an abnormal, surreal situation that you just think about your personal memory of those first two months after the coup that you were so fortunate to have a plane out of, even those two months are going to be things you probably remember in process the rest of your life, and you imagine and that's in the city, that's not even in the countryside, where it's a whole other story, not the ethnic areas. And, and, and just to hold that thought of the the healing that needs to take place, and the the extraordinary, you know, mental counseling and, and, and therapy of some kind or another that has to go on. It's some it's, it's a heavy thought. And I really thank you for sharing that.

Lorcan Lovett 2:14:10

Yeah, thank you very much for your time today and for having me on and keep up the good work. And I'll just keep on trying to report on what's going on. I'll probably do fewer short articles in the future and focus more on longer form stuff. But I think that it's going to be a pivotal year for Myanmar. It always has been over the past few. But I think in terms of where the conflict is headed over the next year, we're going to see a lot but the resistance many are not taking it for granted a victory already. And I think that that's that's wise to not get complacent.

Host 2:14:55

And is there anywhere where listeners can find more about you or your Work your past work your ongoing work that you'd like to direct them to. Yeah,

Lorcan Lovett 2:15:03

they can sometimes tweet not too often, but every now and then, so they can follow me on Twitter login underscore love it. I have online website as well where I'll post some of my work. And I think that's it for now

Host 2:15:29

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