Transcript: Episode #163: The Inconvenient Truth about the Military Coup
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Host 00:03
Thank you for joining us for the next hour or two in this episode of insight Myanmar podcast. In an age of nearly limitless content, we appreciate that you're choosing to take valuable time out of your day to learn more about what is happening in Myanmar it's vital for the story to be heard by people around the world and that starts right now with you.
00:55
Hi, my name
01:05
is
01:13
Chi
Brad 01:26
Okay, welcome back. So today we're going to be revisiting a topic that we have discussed from different angles in the past, but one that continues to be chronically under addressed and under analyzed, and that is the environment specifically, we're going to be looking at the impact that the coup has had on the environment and also the history of environmental exploitation and the social, political and economic issues pertaining to that. So I'd like to welcome you to come to the show, would you like to introduce yourself for our audience so they know who you are what you do?
Jack Jenkins Hill 02:02
Of course, hi. Hi, my name is Jack. I, I am currently a PhD student at the University College London. But I've been working on issues pertaining to the forests to mining its natural resource governance for about 10 years in Myanmar. Most of which I've spent in Thailand, a region in Norway, where I've been working with indigenous activists, as they've tried to reclaim their lands and their forests from many different different threats.
Brad 02:47
Excellent, excellent. So, the topic is obviously phenomenally broad, because there are a lot of key sectors going on here. So, one of the things that I think needs to be done and needs to be said very early on in the piece, we need to contextualize the scope. So, when we talk about environmental exploitation, is there some way that you can sort of make put it into an understandable term, how large these various industries are in the country, how profitable and therefore how attractive they are to people whose morals are perhaps negotiable?
Jack Jenkins Hill 03:33
Yeah, I mean, so that kind of exploitation and accumulation which is which is gathered around me and most natural resources, obviously huge and harks back to the colonial periods and before but has continued to sustain many different forms or iterations of military dictatorship if we're looking at different different kinds of resources, currently, Myanmar contains some of the biggest tin reserves so is one of the one of the providers of the biggest tin supplies in the world has enormous Jade reserves, which have obviously been been very high profile. Timber, particularly teak, but also other very valuable hardwoods have sustained, sustained decades of military military dictatorships and also was one of the resources that was most sought after during the colonial period. So massively massively significant, both economically and politically. In natural resources are to have to remember.
Brad 05:06
So like, is there a way we can put like $1 amount on the sizes of these, these industries. So we know like roughly what it is that we're talking about are they not formally reported
Jack Jenkins Hill 05:20
there are different kinds of figures that we can find, but we can look at the export figures or sorry, the input figures from other countries which have been better, which have been, which had been documented to a better degree. And some of these are extended and fluctuated. I have some figures here from from 2021, actually, so So after the coup, the amount of resources that were that were exported, and the figures are quite astronomical. So I mean, things like altogether with with with minerals, there was about that $3.4 billion worth of exports during during that year $1 billion worth of jade exports, almost a billion dollars worth of rare earths, which has been lots of news coverage, about almost a billion dollars worth of 10 700 million to be precise. Timber has been underreported, and in 2000s, and in the tooth in the 2015 1670. And it was estimated to be around 400 million a year. But that's likely a gross, gross, gross underestimation and the value is probably a lot higher. As a lot of resources go over over borders are accounted for. So it's hard to be precise with the with the kind of economic figure that we're really looking at.
Brad 06:57
But I mean, I think I think it's very important that we sort of look at that, because the numbers that you're talking about, are, are enormous. And like a billion dollars, and that was a billion dollars just for Jade, which, conventionally in the West, like we understand that Jade is expensive. We grasp the concept of that. But you know, our obsession is with these precious stones, like diamonds, and rubies and sapphires, and so on. And I think a lot of people in the West, we look at Jade, and we think well, yeah, I know, it's invaluable. I know, it's expensive. I know, there are quality differences of jade. But when you look at the actual market for Jade, and particularly here, in Asia, right on the border with China, a huge purchaser of Jade, and especially considering that Myanmar's Jade is is actually jadeite or has significant jadeite instead of the cheaper nephrite. Understanding that it's a literally a billion dollar industry. Just within the scope of Myanmar I'd like it really, I think puts things into a into a different perspective. And if you because if you if you look at the country, economically, you look at the economic sort of charts that you might find on Wikipedia. Realistically, these sorts of exports don't even make a huge blip like typically when you look at okay, what are Myanmar's primary sectors, those sectors tend to be oil and gas. They tend to be agricultural exports, particularly rice, and they tend to be things like textiles. These are the major industries we talk about. And so I think that the natural resource exploitations tends to go unless it's oil and gas tends to be a little bit underreported and and sort of under the radar. So so let's move into specific industry. So I know that one one that you you have a lot of information on and a lot of strong opinions on is forestry. And not just the industries themselves but the the cultural components the connection that people have to those forests and the history that they have with those forests and the tension that this causes between local groups and and, and corporate. So what can you tell us about the state of Forestry and logging? In Myanmar?
Jack Jenkins Hill 09:13
Yeah, the state of Forestry and logging I mean, the forests and Myanmar have always been a highly contested, contested subjects. The majority of forests and Myanmar are located and upland areas and in memo's ethnic regions. And as a result, there's always been a lot of conflict. And that conflict is is borne out in many different ways. It's not just a conflict over control but also it's also a conflict over different ways that we understand the forest different ways we see the Forest Service The upland areas where where indigenous communities reside, people have very deep spiritual relationships with those forests dependent upon this forest for many different many different reasons. But these forests have also been the site of, of a lot of exploitation many, many years. Yeah.
Brad 10:27
And so let's talk about the the lawfulness here because there is a there is a very, very, very large criminal logging enterprise, which, once again, I think we often understate, as you know, outside looking in western reportage, we don't think of illegally cutting down trees as being a particularly noteworthy criminal enterprise, it seems almost, you know, small peanuts, particularly when we contrast it with things like the globally renowned drug trade that flows through cluster Myanmar, but it's actually a very, very large ecological problem and also a very large industry financially. So what what is what is driving this illegal logging activity, what's what's going on with this
Jack Jenkins Hill 11:17
several different several different drivers and one of the primary drivers has been agricultural conversion. So, particularly over the last 1015 years, during the transition period, there was a significant expansion a lot of agribusiness activities. So, for example, large expansion of, of palm oil in the south banana plantations in the north and, and large expansion of rubber to so these expansion of agriculture or agribusiness is is, is accompanied by what we call conversion timber. So the logging of those areas to make way for that kind of expansion, which has been incredibly lucrative for those involved. So that was one of the primary ways that that so much logging took place. In addition to that, we also see different other forms of other forms of, of login, some of that is legal, and that's normally done inside reserved forests and public protected forests, which we might consider have been, you know, areas where forests are well managed, but these areas have been completely logged out. Many of them have been completely locked out. And then we have kind of smaller, smaller forms of of login, which is done through through traders has become increasingly militarized, you know, both in the past and what we can currently see now as well. So we have a few different ways that this takes place.
Brad 13:13
And so you, you spoke about this, the conflict and the tension, like you speak about the upland areas, so that predominantly ethnic minority are also very likely to be religious minority groups who sort of live on the west and live on the east in the more mountainous regions. And you talk about the connection they have with the forests. So I'm wondering is it is the conflict between them and sort of central government supported exploitation? Is the conflict predominantly over financial revenue the the actual right to economically exploit the forests? Or is there a deeper sort of cultural desire to preserve this land for the sake of preserving it and not for any financial purpose that is being stymied by these these centrally supported exploitation industries?
Jack Jenkins Hill 14:09
Yeah, I wouldn't say that it was a financial conflict, I would say it's probably much more of a we can understand it much more as a as a kind of territorial conflicts and people through different periods of conflict and also land based investment have have lost large areas of their territory. So this becomes becomes a very significant issue for people who depend on their lands and forests. And it's not only kind of logging which has displaced communities but also from their forests, but also conservation has also been significantly was has also been a significant issue. For look at kitchen if we look at 10 Day and other areas of the country to we see large, protected areas many of which were a established during periods of active conflict in the in the 90s, or early 2000s. And have sought to displace 1000s and 1000s of people from their forests and from their, from their, from their lands. So it's not only a battle over, over kind of logging and accumulation in this way, but also, but also people have been displaced by, by, by other processes of forest control, namely, energy conservation.
Brad 15:37
So hang on, let's talk about this because you said this displaced. And that's a very interesting word because it's very open ended. Are we are we talking about the central government using legal mechanisms to acquire this land like in America, this would be called eminent domain. In Australia, this would be called compulsory acquisition, or are we talking about people coming in and making the region or the territory simply incapable of continuing to sustain those populations and therefore driving them away? Not by force of law, but under sort of fear of not being able to survive? Otherwise? What's the actual mechanism of this this dispossession?
Jack Jenkins Hill 16:23
Yeah, so interesting. Um, it happens in a couple of different ways. But I think when we think about dispossession, and Myanmar, we're looking at a few different processes that are tangled up with armed conflict. And so normally, in these areas, communities have been displaced villagers have been destroyed by periods of armed conflict. And it's this period where people's security of the land is the least where people have already been displaced, maybe to border areas or cities, planning to come back when the fighting has subsided, that that this kind of dispossession takes place. So it's these points that new plans made for those lands that either protected areas are established, or proposed or, or, or palm oil concessions and other kinds of other kind of mining or mining operations are established. So in this way, we can kind of see processes of displacement and dispossession working together. And these processes of dispossession are normally done through through legal processes. They have, you know, recognition through law, something that the communities who've been displaced, never had. And so, so coming back and establishing a life and the territory that has always been yours becomes something that's very difficult.
Brad 17:58
Interesting. And so it's interesting that there seems to be this this consistent overlap between conflict conflict zones, and the the environmental exploitation. And it sort of it points to this interesting. We might call it a coincidence, but it is the more mountainous regions that have the predominantly sort of ethnic minority populations and the religious minority populations, whereas the central lowlands of Myanmar are predominantly ethnic Bhama, predominantly Buddhist. And it is in these mountainous regions where we tend to find the best forests where we tend to find the greatest concentration of natural resources. The jade industry itself is very strong in the far north, as are a lot of the rare earth industries in Kachin state, is it? Is it the case that it's just by coincidence that the mountainous regions were more difficult to conquer? And also unnaturally geographically more abundant with natural resources? And so it's just an unfortunate coincidence that the ethnic minorities found themselves on the most valuable resource laden land, or is it that there are resources within the predominantly Baja region as well, and the government does not treat those populations with the same degree of enmity.
Jack Jenkins Hill 19:20
I think that there's there's both both components at play, Sosa's to some degree, the fact that upland areas have have the least infrastructure has kind of protected protected various areas from from a lot of accumulation. So forests still stand but also there's a lot of geological and geographical reasons why there would be more resources in areas where there are you know, mountains and hills which which because of you know, different because of tectonic plates coming together, etc. We find lots we find greater kind of resources like A golden rubies. And this is studies. This is also a reason why there's much more much more resources in these areas. And also in the lowland regions, there's there's also been a longer history of sedans raised agriculture, which is also meant that there's been further deforestation. Yeah, so there's a few different reasons they're
Brad 20:32
interesting. So, but again, it does come back to this idea of the the ethnic conflicts, the same conflicts that have been bubbling for decades and decades, which have been described variously as well, these are inter ethnic conflicts, these are territorial disputes, these are religious conflicts or whatever, there is this large economic component as well, that that, you know, is often sort of put to the side in the interest of simplifying the conflict into Oh, well, this is an ethno religious conflict. And evidently, there is there's significantly more going on at play, and then there's significantly more going on in those territories. That brings a lot of actors to the table who might not care about the Ethno religious components of the conflict in the first place. But yeah, so Okay, so let's move sort of down from from the forests. So let's move to the more conventional so non renewable types of resources, minerals, and metals and things of that kind. So you spoke about when we discussed this before you spoke about and an expansion of mining operations across the country, what, what types of mining operations are we looking at expanding and what is driving that expansion.
Jack Jenkins Hill 21:58
So there's been expansion of a few different types of mining, but when we're looking at the expansion of mining, mainly, we're looking at mining that can be done pretty quickly, so kind of smash and grab style style mining. So we've seen a massive expansion of gold mining, particularly in kitchen estate that across the country, we can see quite a large expansion. As well as tin mining, also seen large expansions in the South. Probably these two, the main the main commodities, which which which there's been a huge expansion of, and the reasons for the expansion, I suppose, several, several, one. One is the economic collapse, which has meant that many, many people are involving themselves in these mining industries. So it's become an important livelihood for many people who've lost or the lives of livelihood sources. The conflict has also been a driver of, of this expansion of mining as the military and other armed groups want to wants to generate more resources for the conflict, we can see that the kind of breakdown in any sense of the concept accountability, any kind of rule of law has also meant that there's been an expansion in the mining, in mining in the mining sector, so we can see that money sector has become even more militarized than it was before. So there are very few constraints to people who have got the backing of, of, of arms to doing mining. So there's a few different reasons why it's why it's expanded so rapidly during this period. Why it's taking the shape that it has.
Brad 24:14
And, I mean, obviously, there's quite a bit of foreshadowing going on there when we're talking about the absence of oversight and regulation. Let's let's look at a couple of sort of key elements here. So gold mining as as, as we spoke about previously, I was horrified to discover that a practice that I thought that a practice that I knew existed in in some countries, but I didn't think actually existed in Asia is being utilized which is the use of mercury in in gold extraction. Can you can you take us through that phenomenon and how that came about?
Jack Jenkins Hill 24:59
Yeah, I Um, yeah, so there's there's a few different processes that that people use for the extraction of golds and Myanmar has a few different kinds of gold deposits they have in the center of the country, primary gold deposits, which are contained within HardRock. So, we generally call that hardrock mining which people need cyanide to extract. So, so, the gold is is is is purified and amalgamates it in this kind of mining through through cyanide, but the majority of gold mining and Myanmar is from eluvial sources or second secondary sources, which are normally found in sedimentary rocks along riverbanks in soft soil, and these people generally use mercury as the way to amalgamate and then recover the goals. And so, mine is, after kind of displacing areas of sedimentary rock, we use mercury to amalgamate different parts, particles of gold together and then and then burned that amalgam in order to purify the gold and have have, be able to recover gold that they can sell. And Mercury has many significant health. Health harms. It's an incredibly, incredibly dangerous neurotoxin. And so it is both really damaging to the people who use it, but also to the to the ecosystem around is it kind of bio accumulates up the food system and finds its way into the bodies of fish and birds, etc?
Brad 26:56
Because it was you said specifically eluvial? And if, if I'm not mistaken, eluvial refers to riverbeds. This is places near bodies of water. So the risk of contaminating sea life and therefore sea food is is particularly high, significantly higher than then if this were, you know, far away somewhere in the mountains.
Jack Jenkins Hill 27:23
Yeah, yeah. So So mainly it kind of riverine areas. So So I think that the there has been some studies done actually, but there's, there's huge amounts of mercury contained in, in fish that can be that can be found in in rivers and streams.
Brad 27:47
And so the question because the process itself, like you talk about the amalgamation and so from a chemical perspective, gold is found in rocks, it's found in ore. And conventionally, we would smelt it, we would melt something and then we would extract the liquid and purify it. But in this case, we can just dunk it into mercury. And because of the chemical properties of Mercury, the metallic gold will simply be extracted into that mercury mixture, and we can throw the rock away. This seems reasonably simple and straightforward. Is this a practice that is used in more developed professional, safe mining operations? Or is has this just been phased out everywhere else?
Jack Jenkins Hill 28:33
I think that the majority of mercury is used in artisanal and small scale mining. So that probably and that's across the world is that's that's the biggest, that's the biggest use of mercury as well. And so I think that probably kind of replicates so kind of mirrors the the mining sector or gold mining sector, a menma, much of which is small scale, and artisanal, even if it's running at a larger kind of acreage is going to be kind of us relatively basic levels of equipment.
Brad 29:09
Not just as the large scale mine, this is not the small scale people saying, well, this is what all the big mining operations are doing. Let's try to emulate them. The big mining operations aren't even doing this to start with
Jack Jenkins Hill 29:25
the big mining operations in Myanmar, we'll be using mercury. Yeah, if they're running from a loop from alluvial sources, so if they're if they're if they're if they're using if they're mining from sedimentary rock, if they're writing mining from hard rock, they'll be using cyanide.
Brad 29:41
Wow. Okay, so large scale small scale they are using these dangerous substances. Yes, yeah. And is there a way that they can use these dangerous substances because in the absolute most primitive form, we soak the all in the mercury Be the gold amalgamates into the mercury mixture. And then you can literally just heat the mercury until the mercury evaporates off and extract the gold you can do that creating a large cloud of very dangerous neurotoxin, metal. Is there a safe version of this? Does that exist? Or is it always risky?
Jack Jenkins Hill 30:24
There is, there's been kind of lots of different efforts to, to make safer versions. But I don't think that any of them have been necessarily kind of accessible or maybe feasible enough to really catch on. So in bigger, more professional mining operations, you might find people using kind of funnel like contraptions to capture the to capture the smoke. So it doesn't, it doesn't harm the people who are using it. And you might find kind of more safe protocols for using it. But But by and large, the it kind of remains the same. There's been I think, you, you alluded to it, there's been some efforts to do kind of direct smelting without using mercury. But I think that it's not really, to my knowledge, it's not been a practice, which has really caught on in many places, because I think it's, I think it's pretty difficult to do. And that kind of be the function that mercury plays in kind of gold mining processes, is quite an important one. People do say that using cyanide, it is safer because it can break down, which which sounds funny, but because it can break down into the ecosystem, whereas Mercury stays there stays there forever.
Brad 32:04
I mean, that's, again, like the heavy metal poisoning like mercury, lead, cadmium, you know, we, we've seen this, we've been through this, like, we went through this even in the late 20th century, which I mean, was when I was born, so that's as far back as I can remember. I don't know if it was even earlier than that. But we were talking about how you can't have the fish from from the bay, you can't have the fish from, you know, the the region around this mining town. Because the quantity of heavy metals that have built up in the sea life in that region, have made the fish positively poisonous to you to eat, you will slowly develop degenerative neurological conditions as a result of of eating the seafood. And we came to terms with the fact that industrial processes are turning our food sources into poison. So it's happening in Jamelia eat, one has to assume that they're conscious of the risk. Is this just a case of people being so desperate? Because they have no alternative? That they'll just roll those dice and live with decades of consequence? Or is there some sort of propaganda campaign to convince the people that mercury and cyanide are not as dangerous as they're cracked up to be?
Jack Jenkins Hill 33:25
I think that people aren't very aware, generally, who use those substances, quite how dangerous they are. And also the kind of danger of them is displaced, because it will take several years to be able to see the impacts. So it's a kind of, say slow violence. So for that reason, I think that there's no, because this doesn't impact people straight away. There's no There's no necessarily strong impulse for people to stop handling or to use safe practices. And I think that the level of awareness is it's very, it's very low, I think.
Brad 34:14
mean, it makes sense. It's just very unfortunate. And wait, how are they getting them? Okay, someone must be selling the mercury to them. Myanmar does not produce mercury. Are they international controls on these dangerous substances like there's nobody verify that it's not going to be used to poison rivers?
Jack Jenkins Hill 34:34
I think that the majority of mercury is produced from China. And I think that some might also be produced in India as well. And so it comes in very informal ways. So I don't think that it's internationally tracked, and then normally it's it's it's held by gold traders or gold shops. where people go to go to sell their goals. So it's very easily easy to acquire.
Brad 35:10
Okay, so it's Yeah, so there's no there's no real checking it's it's it's not just that like a bunch of bad actors are trying to dump their Mercury because they can no longer use it in their industries. It's more just the Myanmar people are willing to buy and other people are willing to sell. That's right. Fair enough. So moving away from from that so let's let's move to a similar case up in the north HC chin. We did an episode talking about this but I think I think it's worth recapping on this terbium if I remember the name correctly, and and the element next to turbulent Dysprosium. I think both very, very rare. Metals. Both of them are crucial to manufacturing of high tech goods, including phones and and smart smart goods and electric vehicles and so on. And largely being my nicotine state once again, through very dangerous chemicals that are being pumped into the minds and that then seep into the the natural environment. Do you have any sort of scope for this type of activity, not not just mercury and gold, but the rare earth industry in general in Myanmar and the ecological impacts that that industry is having?
Jack Jenkins Hill 36:43
Yeah, I mean, reira mining is concentrated and shrimp weigh in, in Kachin state. And it seems that the that the both the ecological and also the human impacts have been been really significant. And this kind of, I guess, this is a kind of a process of what is what is known sometimes as as slow violence, the pollution that comes from these kind of mining operations where the impacts are felt for generations afterwards. And so I know that in in rare earth operations people have faced many, many health difficulties, lots of miscarriages, lots of dis figurations, and things like this. So it's, it's very, very serious.
Brad 38:00
So, okay, so let's, let's move forward, then. So we've looked at forestry, we've looked at Jade, we've looked at rare earth metals and gold and the expansion of mining operations. So this is something that has been going on for a very long time. This is something that particularly the ethnic and religious minority communities have been dealing with for decades, and has led to armed conflict as, as we've discussed, now, obviously, February 2021, we see the coup, and the country sort of descends into basic basically border to border violence, what has the impact been, since then as as the dust has not even begun to settle, the dust is very much still churning in the air. What has been the impact on on all of these different sectors and industries?
Jack Jenkins Hill 38:56
Yeah, I mean, we spoke about it a little bit before. But we kind of see a transformation of, of lots of these kind of resource sectors. The last period, the period of, of liberalization, democratic transition, we saw kind of large land based investments, large scale projects, very kind of like, you know, huge dam projects being proposed and things like this. And I guess that kind of symbolized a kind of investment environment that that that different kinds of people who would who wanted to accumulate wealth from memoirs, natural resources and natural features were interested in. But now there's been quite a rapid transformation of that and obviously, lots of those kinds of large scale projects have been either put on hold, investors kind of walked away. But we see a kind of different kind of kind of forms of extraction in the current period. And these kinds of forms of extraction, a pretty rapid, often smaller scale with less, with less levels of investments, but in many ways more ubiquitous, and so have a different set of damages. And alongside that, also, we see that because of the nature of the resource extraction in the current period there's, there's very few regulations. And so the environmental consequences are really, really dire. So we hear lots of floods of communities talking about rivers drying up talking about the expansion of mines, into into their villages, sometimes displacing whole communities. We see rapid expansion of mining into IDP villages, so absentee villages, which has happened in the past, but it's happening now. And while we look at this kind of this kind of, I don't know if we could call it conflict capitalism, when we look at this kind of period. We also look at what might come next. And what we can see from cycles of conflict in Myanmar with the relationship with a relationship to to to land and resource exploitation and appropriation. Is that following following conflicts, I think we talked about this process earlier, following conflict and displacement, we start to see more forms of dispossession. And so the more villagers who are displaced, I mean, we know that 1.5 million people have been displaced absolutely enormous levels of displacement, we can start to see, I'm sure that we will start to see more larger scale resource extraction in areas of displacement, because it opens up new land and new opportunities for for capitalists to start. To start exploiting?
Brad 42:31
Absolutely. And so it's, it is quite, it is quite weird. And we're seeing a lot of different things. Obviously, we're seeing, you know, the petrochemical industry, which is not something that we've really focused too much on. But we've seen a lot of that Western investment pulling out already. And they will certainly be someone to fill that gap one way or another, you know, there's a opportunity, there's an opportunity, someone's going to take it. But so the the ramifications though these industries, whether or not there's a low the ramifications, the environmental impacts of these industries, and the environmental impacts of the actions that have already been taken over the last years or decades. Continue on, because we were not just looking for scaling back of activities, but they positively require efforts to undo the ecological damage. And is there any estimate, by the way, like, with regard to the ecological damage? Is there any figure that we can put on what it would take and how long it would take to try and replenish the the environments that have been damaged by things industries that don't conform to sort of safety standards or environmental protection statements?
Jack Jenkins Hill 43:50
You mean, in the last two years?
Brad 43:55
No. I mean, I mean, in the last like, 50 is
Jack Jenkins Hill 44:00
in Myanmar? Yes. I haven't seen I haven't seen any, any, any data or research like that, but it would be very interested to know.
Brad 44:11
Because that I mean, that would really be the question. If it's not just about stopping a bad industry like if the mercury is already in the water, can that be repaired? Like is there any way to try and industrially extract the mercury?
Jack Jenkins Hill 44:27
I think it would require people to scour riverbeds and things like this. So. So it would be something that would be a very, very big operation and very, very difficult. Yeah, so not, not something not something easy to do. No.
Brad 44:45
So, okay, so basically, the overarching point that I want to, that I wants to focus on is is what what are these impacts? What are we looking at, in the long term because cuckoo trees have to grow Oh, animals have to eat water flows downstream. These are just things that are true. What is Myanmar looking at currently, in terms of an ecological future? What are we headed towards?
Jack Jenkins Hill 45:14
Well, potentially, it's very, very bleak. We can see, over the past two years, there's been pretty rapid deforestation in many areas, large expansion, large expansions of gold mining, and it's very difficult to see. To see a point in the future where where we can start to think about what recovery would look like. But I think it highlights a really important point. And that's the kind of relationship between economic ecological collapse between if we're looking at a bigger scale between climate change, extinction and things like this, on the relationship between that and kind of conflict and authoritarianism, closing civic space, and how disastrous these are for not just for for for people, but also for the environment, and of course, the people who depend on that environment. And these, you know, as we can see, with a coup, this kind of just pushes us more towards a towards the, you know, the precipice of of climate and ecological collapse across the world to
Brad 46:51
as it relates, I want to talk about that one as well are the long term ramifications but focusing focusing internally focusing within Myanmar. You You spoke before about desertification? What what would that actually look like in the case of Myanmar? Where is this occurring? Like it's not some deserts are not something that we conventionally associated with Southeast Asia, it almost seems a contradiction in terms. So what's, what does desertification look like in the Myanmar context?
Jack Jenkins Hill 47:24
Yeah, so I mean, Myanmar, I mean, amid amid many different kinds of refugees, and IDPs, who have flown who fled from conflict, we also have a really large number of a very large number of climate refugees. Many of whom come from the dry zone, whose lands just doesn't really provide the things that it used to anymore, whose land had become really desertified. As climate change has intensified, people who can't grow the crops, they were growing, grown before and can't make living anymore, and kind of become migrants throughout the country displaced because of because of ecological collapse. And so the kind of, you know, intensification of climate change, and the drawing back of rainy seasons, and, you know, rainy seasons becomes smaller, but sometimes more, you know, there's more periods of intense rain too. It just means that there are large areas, large areas and a dry sump, which just become untenable. So this is what it looks like. It is obviously hugely serious, but something that's been going on for a very long time. I mean, we also see to kind of inverse or similar processes that have taken place in the Delta. And obviously, after Cyclone Nargis, but what happened afterwards was that so much of the land became salinity. Selenium hated that people couldn't grow their growth things there either, and also become a different kinds of climate, climate refugee.
Brad 49:16
So the delta and delta regions are typically quite far I don't know if specifically what you're wanting is like, but Delta region tends to be very fertile areas where you have uncharacteristically large agricultural output. Was that historically the case in AOD?
Jack Jenkins Hill 49:35
It was it was it was, you know, one of the central rice bowls. But, but livelihoods there have become increasingly difficult largely because of the Silla nation of the soil, which just means that it's very, very difficult to grow things like it was in the past and also changing. Changing climate has also made it very difficult to.
Brad 50:02
But so so long as you mean salt, the salty so
Jack Jenkins Hill 50:06
that's right. That's right Yeah,
Brad 50:08
how did I get there
Jack Jenkins Hill 50:13
I think it got there through the through the, through the cyclone and through rising sea levels of washed up. So, this resulted in, in, in in Salt, salt getting into into the land.
Brad 50:30
So, so in terms of food Myanmar has been, like a rice exporter that they export rice. And we know for example, that the red soil in Shan State is famous for its fertility and the nutrients that it imparts to the rice and all that sort of stuff. Myanmar has not had a problem, to my knowledge, feeding its population, or at least not not an ecological problem. political problems, yes. But not not an actual in capability of feeding the population. Is that a potential future for Myanmar simply not being able to produce enough food?
Jack Jenkins Hill 51:12
Yeah, I think it's a very real problem. And just thinking of examples to give, even now we find that lots of food and Myanmar is imported. And lots of people have stopped producing food, which sounds kind of funny, but lots of people have moved towards cash crops. So we see lots of people cultivating beets on that in the south or rubber and moved away from food production, which puts people in a very, very vulnerable position. So in the south, where the predominant where I've the majority of my experience has been huge majority of the foods, you know, that was brought in to markets is is from it's not from Myanmar. It's from Thailand, which obviously puts people in a very precarious situation. So the you know, the potential of of Myanmar losing its food sovereignty and food production, because of because of because of climate change, but also because of the different incentives, what people are producing is a very real one.
Brad 52:38
And so that what you just said that it reminds me of a couple of other, it reminds me of, for example, Yemen, who before the War saw some phenomenally high percentage of what little arable land they had dedicated to the cultivation of hemp, which is like basil, not a chewable narcotic. You know, Colombia, where drug lords are forcing farmers to grow cocaine instead of growing other types of crops, and perhaps sort of most famously, Haiti during the French colonial period where every inch of arable land was converted into sugarcane crop. And of course, the ramifications of these often are not only that there isn't an established industry of a food manufacturer, but also that the soil deteriorates very notable in the in the case of cocaine, where after fields have been used for cocaine, that those fields often will not support conventional agricultural industries. In the future, is that a similar thing when we're talking about rubber plantations, were talking about beetle not do they have deleterious effects on the soil itself.
Jack Jenkins Hill 53:50
I think that they do. They do. diminish the soil and its nutrients becomes very difficult to plant things afterwards. Of course, also other kinds of agribusiness as well use lots of toxic chemicals, which means that the the land would be very difficult to cultivate afterwards. And also this is also common with the the other kinds of pollution that we were talking about earlier as well. Pollution from mine tailings in mine waste, also feed into people's soil and mean that lots of land has become an arable. So there's lots of pressures on agricultural lands, which was undermine some of the food systems people have.
Brad 54:36
Yeah. And so, so taking that and now expanding to a broader context, because again, people tend to underestimate, scope and size and Myanmar. Myanmar is larger than Ukraine, and Ukraine is the largest country wholly within Europe. Obviously, we're not counting Russia because it's trans continent. Little, but Myanmar is some some 30,000 square miles larger something in that vicinity. So it is a huge slice of the planet. What are the impacts globally? For what we're seeing? Because we can't expect environmental and ecological damage to be contained? Disasters do not care about borders, what what are the potential flow on effects?
Jack Jenkins Hill 55:24
I mean, potentially huge. Myanmar has some of the largest continues to have some of the largest contiguous rain forests in Southeast Asia. These are many ways or apparel. It's, you know, a country, which is incredibly important for the for, for, for maintaining a balance, balance ecosystem and climate in many ways. But lots of these ecosystems are in peril, which has huge global global implications. The destruction of mammoths forests would have huge knock on effects for both for climate change, but also for extinction, because many of those forests contain contain very, very vulnerable and endangered species. So and when we look in the global sense, I mean, we can kind of see that the the issues in Myanmar and not just national, but international. And also, and it's very critical to think that that the resolution of the conflict in Myanmar has has huge, huge global ramifications. And also, as I think we spoke about a little bit earlier, there's a very important relationship between between conflicts and between climate change. And if we're really serious about about addressing the existential issues that face us all, we really need to start looking at cases like Myanmar in which we will see, you know, in the next in the next few years, very, very serious ecological issues, which which are going to be irresolvable. Yeah.
Brad 57:29
So, so bringing this then back to the coup, which seems to sort of underlie everything that happens in Myanmar these days, this conflict has been going on for for two years. And there's there is clearly no immediate end in sight. And on top of all of the things that we've already discussed, the actual sort of ecological damage being caused by industrial processes and, you know, the choices with with crops and things like that we've now got land agricultural land that is being deliberately burnt or shelled regions that are effectively being denied by virtue of unexploded ordinance, and, and settlements that are being burned to the ground. And of course, the IDPs and other types of refugees have gone through the roof, as you've noted. It's I'm just wondering, like, how much worse Do you think this can get? Like? Are we looking at just the same thing, just continuing onwards? Or is it going to snowball? Is this going to just not just get worse, but get worse at a significantly increasing pace? How long until we hit a critical point?
Jack Jenkins Hill 58:53
I think in many other ways that we look at Myanmar, it's very difficult to see where a resolution will come the current point in time, but on the current trajectory, I think things will become significantly worse. I think that the kind of scale of of ecological collapse both mean for many different directions, both because of you know, the economic outlook, so people relying more on on on, on on mining and other resource based activities. Conflict, which is feeding resource use. This displacement of indigenous communities who protected their lands for decades of a generation sorry. I mean, all of these things really paint a very, very bleak picture. Yeah, so I don't know when a breaking point or a critical point will come. It's really difficult to say. But but but unless something changes quickly, I'm sure we'll reach it quite, you know, a really broad reach it probably sooner than we expect.
Brad 1:00:17
And then, I mean, I suspect being cynical, I suspect that I already know the answer to this question. But is there anything that we outside of the country can do in order to ameliorate the situation?
Jack Jenkins Hill 1:00:33
I think that there's like, I think that we need to change the ways that we think about the situation and the ways in which the situation has been has been perpetuated. And, you know, a lot of the conversation that we've had, we've looked at the kind of the financial value of lots of different resources. And it's, it's this kind of system of, of internal, but also international capitalism, which has continued to prop up successive military governments. And so by addressing this, and also globalizing the issue, and starting to think about, about, about the ways in which the the coup in Myanmar, and the dictatorship and Minmei impacts our global, you know, global efforts to contain climate change, I think we need to start thinking in these in these ways and thinking a lot a lot larger, the more that we think that issues and Myanmar are just national contain between national borders, I think it's very difficult to be able to find, to find fruits out. What are the other things that we can do? us as individuals? Very difficult, but I would, you know, continue continue supporting communities and people who, who are trying their best to rid themselves of this tyrannical regime? I think that's the best thing I can think.
Brad 1:02:18
Yeah. So yeah, so I think I think we've covered quite a lot of ground here. And I want to thank you for coming on. But before we finish up by tradition, we would always leave the guests with a bit of time to give the audience some thoughts to mull over or just the key salient points that you want people to sort of go away humming as they as they leave this interview. So I'd like to just invite you to share some thoughts with us along those lines.
Jack Jenkins Hill 1:02:54
Yeah, I have a few thoughts. I mean, maybe maybe just to reiterate on that, on that last, those last few points that we just discussed. And thinking about, about how, how capitalism, how resource resource exploitation and appropriation has continues to perpetuate struggles, I think it's really, really important and a subject that we need to discuss more. Also, you know, the kind of larger issues that we've discussed, discussed today about environmental collapse, and, and kind of environmental impacts of the coup. This has been something which has, you know, we've through particular cases we've come to, but it's been something that's been widely underreported, actually. And so I think having more attention on this space is really, really critical, because it's really, really important. And the outlook is incredibly bleak. And it plays in many ways, a very, very important role in the conflict. So this is something that I think we should all think about a little bit more. And then I guess, finally, I would maybe like to pay homage as well to the many indigenous communities who I've had the privilege of working towards, who are continuing to struggle to protect their lands and forests in the face of such difficult circumstances and in the face of expanding conflicts of displacement and dispossession, but people are still working incredibly hard to protect their lands and their forests and so we need to be able to find ways to support them as best as we can. I think probably those are my my final thoughts.
Host 1:05:00
As many of you know that in addition to running the Insight Myanmar podcast platform, we also formed a nonprofit, better Burma to respond to the terror that the Burmese military has been inflicting on the country and its people. We encourage listeners to check out our blog to see what work better Burma has been carrying out, along with the upcoming projects we hope to support. Right now, as I'm sure you all know, and today's interview only reinforced that the ongoing need is overwhelming. A donation of any amount goes towards those vulnerable communities who need it post. It will be so greatly appreciated. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission that are Burma. And your donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at a local crafts.com Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spelled a LOKCR a ft s one word a local crafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.
1:08:11
80 or whatever Iran UNGA we're gonna do we are done. And the reason is that we got our busier and busier Oh VA yada, yada yada, yada yada yada yada yada, yada, yada. No, no