Transcript: Episode #144: A Generational Change
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Bobo. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
00:18
Toe Shia Sunni to WICO Jonathan yabby Amina she just said mucho de Soto the Maya Maya Driedger Kebbi. Know we go sold all the time, but
Host 00:51
for any Burmese language speakers tuning in today, we wanted to let you know that our better Burma mission has launched three Burmese language podcasts, Myanmar revolutionary tills, dark era, Burma, and Myanmar Peace, women and security. These programs can be found on our website as well as on any of your preferred podcast platforms. We invite you to take a listen. But for now, let's get on with this episode
01:35
the way that was a good day, yeah. Maybe that is good
Bobo 02:08
Okay, so after the coop, we were becoming a background, or like underground activist, as we cannot walk very freely, and we have to, we have to hide walking in a place where we are going to stay. So to have to have a safe place. We need to show to our neighbors how we are I mean, our identity. So then we need to choose a story for ourselves. Freedom and like, Okay, who I am, I'm here. And I, okay. My background is like teaching to a student online teaching this. So no one can notice me. I'm doing a politics I'm doing the activist or human right walk. So that's why First, I need to create a story. And then, of course, my neighbor is going to come if I were doing like this, so I have to say, Okay, I'm just, I'm teaching the students online. teaching language does that I can assume that I'm teaching to the students, online students me like, you know, like this school student, I cannot say that because it can be related with the Cgn students. So that's why I say okay, I'm teaching I'm teaching language to the, to the children like this. And, and, yeah, online at that so that everyone can notice me, I'm doing like, the politics. And then okay, well, when I'm communicating with Lance or something. So, if I am speaking, I cannot speak very loud, either online, because if I can't, because when we are talking, we are talking very serious topics. And also, we just really relate into the current situation. And we are sharing the current situation, we're like planning strategizing, what we are going to do, what kind of what kind of activities or kind of strike that we're going to continue. So we're, we're talking and discussing with our alliances or with our, like, networks. So when I come to this kind of meeting online, so I have to speak very quietly because my new book I can make other it's my neighbor to hear what I'm saying because if I seen some They were just very like, really relative to the relate to very related to the movement or something so they can notice me who I am. So that's why when I'm talking, when I'm communicating, so I speak very quietly, and I need to find place where we cannot aware, no one can hear me. Because, you know, in my country, like, we are not living very, in a very big compound that, like, every house are very close to each other. So that's why if I say something, I'll never can hear my mind. What I'm saying, though, so that's why what I need to manage is, so when I speaking, I speak very, very low voice. And also I show to my neighbor, how I'm teaching just like this. It is the word that how we deal with the situation and how we continue with the movement. And again, another thing is, you know, my neighbors are from military, and they are still actively working in their military, they are soldier, so that's why I feel oh, my God, I've got very good problems with my neighbors. So it makes me more squeezing myself, okay. I can see, I have so whenever I like talking with my, my colleagues, I say, Okay, let me speak very slowly and quietly, because my new words, I just like that. So that's why I always request. So that is how I am dealing with the situation and also how I identify myself in my place. So this first thing that I would like to share,
Host 06:59
thank you. And I'm here speaking to Bobo who has been part of the democracy movement, and you're starting this interview out by sharing the story, reflecting upon basically this fake identity and kind of a cut out character you have to create and a safe house that you have to keep safe surrounded by military neighbors. I mean, this is you're describing a situation you're living in that is right out of any spy movie I've ever seen. I mean, these are any suspense or spy novel or movie that is showing a character taking on another identity and the training that allows him to know how to how to effectively contort the truth to protect oneself and protect others and protect the information. And I it's just it's stunning to hear this because these when you're watching spy movies or reading suspense novels, you're reading about people that are in the field that are professional spies and are trained and everything else. I we're gonna get into your background in just a moment. But I assume that you don't come from a background of being a professionally trained spy, I assume that when the coup happens, you had to just learn how to take this on, you had to learn how to find a safe house, how to have a fake identity, how to make up stories that support that fake identity and in the highest possible stakes imaginable. You're creating these characters with no training and lives are depending on it so that I don't even know how to really process that or what to ask about that to you. I guess you can just share a little bit from your reflection. How did you how did you go from a somewhat ordinary background to the coup being launched and suddenly having to take on this whole fake identity with the highest stakes possible in terms of being able to maintain it? How were you able to learn these behaviors?
Bobo 08:59
So being an activist since for a long time sinks into dump seven I facing so many challenges and difficulties. I'll try at any point the police or the military. So it's you know, we're under military regimes things for a long time. Okay, I was actively involved in the being a human rights activist on eMERGE defenders, or politic activists things in 2007. So since that time, when we were like, doing activities were to be free, secretly and working as an underground we, and then that time when we were doing that, but by doing it, we are like, taking care of ourself. And also, we would learn from each other or maybe from our from our seniors or from our brothers who are The older generation for ads, so we learn from them, okay, how we keep sick, or who can keep secret, how we can communicate secretly how we should do your secret like this. So by, by doing that we're we're learning from each other, and we are learning from our older generation how to be safe and how to work in hiding. So that is how we come up with the how to have a fake IDs. And that again, again, you know, one, we are communicating with a stranger, that's how we have to say, we have to, we have to make her our not a real identity, because the real identity can be known if somebody had been arrested, or simply referred to them, and like, my friends or my, my colleagues will be arrested. And then when they investigate them, a, of who your friends are, who are connected with them, if they beat him to my friends. So my friend have to say, Okay, I'm connecting with this guy, call me my real name, and then they can record it. And after the record, they can try and find me with a resume, so that it can make me more difficult to move freely. So they can, they can follow me, they means the police can follow me with my real ID ID, my real identity. So maybe whenever I go like traveling, so if they check the real identity in the list, so it can be very easy to find me. So that's fine, we need to start changing of our ID fake it fake, it means like, not not the real one that I am using normally, but I need to change my name like a nickname, or maybe Nick Id like, like fake story. Or maybe the fake means, which is not really not very, not positive things we cannot use to the story again, let's say okay, I can say I'm a teacher, and I am like teaching to the kids language. That is the normal normal story, which is in the environment. But we cannot say hey, I'm very, very simply, we're just impossible things that can make me more suspicious, find the labor. So that's why when we're choosing fake ID when we're like, making our story to be fake well, so we have to be a we have to consider for you. Probably, to make ourself feasible, to make ourselves visible, but to make ourselves not knowing by anyone, not knowing by not suspicious by the environment, by police, by intent, by by, by our threat hands. So that's why like, we need to check very, very clearly, and not to be having like that. So these are some of the background or these are like how we have to be aware, or we have to take care to be involved in the movement to continue walking what we have to do safely. Of course, we can also save free sip, but we can make we can reduce the risk to be less than less.
Host 14:05
Right, that makes sense. And I think this is a good segue for learning a bit more about you and your background and where you came from before the who was launched and what your activities were. So can you take us a bit through, however, is much is safe to share. I should say don't say anything that puts yourself at risk. But however much is safe to share. Can you tell us a bit about your background, your family where you came from growing up and what you were doing in the years before the coup?
Bobo 14:33
I am politic activist. And then I'm an activist since 2007. Now in 2007 The walk to the center my suffering evolution, so monk protest against the against the military regime. So that time Mimer Like my, not my carrier, I mean like that. In that time, I start in touch with politics and I involve more and more into politics. And actually, my background is just a student, like ordinary people like other people just test it. I have no particular background. My family's not from politics background, I'm just a normal family members. And but in 2007, after the Saffron Revolution, it makes me to involve in parties. And then from that time, I evolved more deeper and deeper into politics that entity, humor and democracy movement. So in tune after the 2007, so after the military crackdown to the monks, monks like Manta, like praying and marching on the street, and like many civilians are many people were joining there and protest against the protest against the height. His parents are on petrol sampling. So the, the, at the protest tide, and when I saw the military crackdown to the monks, brutally, it makes me really, really angry. And then it comes to me that, hey, why they are so brutal. And under, that is one of the days one of the key points for me to get more involved in the parties and to to be an activist. Then, of course, that I didn't know what is what is activist. I didn't know what is human rights, democracy. Also, even politics, I didn't know anything. But when I when I saw that crackdown, and when I saw many monitor, civilians are killed by the military and few really angry and it makes me it makes me really, really pushing me up to involved. Okay, another thing is, I mean, in my, I mean, personally, myself, my individual, when I worked in school, and after I, after I finished my high school, I had no choice. I didn't know what to do, because I also feel the education system has nothing. And also, I lost my way when I when I finished my high school. So I didn't join, I didn't go to the university. But yeah, of course, later on, I mean, after one or two years, I, I joined to the university, but in that time, when I am going out, when I see the people, when I see people are afraid poor, and I have my one day me, like, I decided my set, hey, one day I am going to be I'm going to try to be rich, if I'm rich, and I will help these people. So that is the one of the mindset that it comes to me. So again, when I think okay, if I have a business, if I have a massage many, but if the system or if the military is like manipulating to me, so Oh, my poverty will be gone, as well. So I'm thinking I am like, please tell me to myself, Okay, so what I need to do is we need to change them, I need to change that damn Easter, the military, so I need to overthrow them. If you can change the system, it will be okay. So, if we cannot change the system, if you cannot overturn the military regime, even though I have a final business, it's nothing it can be occupying one day. So it is no guarantee or for my dream to help people, so that's why I have one conclusion, okay. If we If I cannot overturn them. If I cannot make an assistant Ching, my leg will be nothing my dream will not fulfill that if I can change the system. If I try To change the system, if the system change, if we got the democracy, so people live, we're better. So with that decision and with that mindset, and when I saw that several revolution, so this can, I mean, this two comes together and oh my god, yeah, is really what I need to do. So, since that time, I start getting more involved in parties, having like starting like, meeting with the people who are like, involved in politics already. So I get more and more and more, or know what my know is getting wider and wider. And then from that, I involved in my organization, I joined with my organization, and keep continue fighting for human rights and democracy seems to tie. And, yeah, of course, the tie I'm offering. I do many activities in the ground way. And, yeah, since the time to now we stay fighting for human rights democracy, we try to overturn the military leadership. So and then trying to make change to the country, trying to bring system which is can guarantee for the secure or peaceful for the people in the country. So that is why I involvement more more in the politics as well as the like being an activist. So that is one of the amenities one of the I mean, one of the key point or one of the 10.44, for myself, I mean, in my life, one of the turning points, how I'm procuring parties, or when I became an activist and be involved in the human rights and democracy movement. So that is just one of the a piece and also biggest key point in my life.
Host 22:08
Thank you for sharing that. That's all quite a powerful story to hear about the role that the Saffron Revolution played in your political development and the path that you went down. There's a lot to explore there, I'm sure from 2007. On to 21. When the coup happened these this decade plus, you were you you had by your own profession, you decided to become an activist, fighting for democracy for human rights, and doing so against a horribly brutal military with no regard for any any human rights or anything else. So ready to violate any kind of standards. So before we get into what's happened since the coup, can you walk us through some of those years, I know, there's probably more than it's possible to talk about on the time we have on this podcast, but give us an overview of what you were doing during these years from oh seven after Saffron Revolution to 21. And what stood out during this time of the causes and activities you were doing and what you learn from this work as well.
Bobo 23:20
Uh, yes. So, since the tie I get more engaged into politics and also more connection with the people who are already involved in the politics, yeah, as I told our seniors, our, our older, our elder generation, so, I learned a lot from that and also clinician more and more. So, in 2007, like I drive with an organization called Generation wave, which is also I'm currently working with generation with antenna. So, I joined with my organization, and then we did so many underground activities, very timber, we like with casual papers in the public, and then we write a political message on the wall for to my life, we paint, we paint or we write a message on the wall in the public area, and also in Paris, we like we we stick a poster a political message like this. So, we did like this kind of underground activities after in 2007, after I joined the organization, and then the reason why we are doing that is to give the message to the people and to give the model profession to the people and also to give the message to the regime okay the message to the people is hey come up together get up together with us to fight for human democracy and to overturn the Malaysian region. So, it comes together. So, we motivate and mobilize to the gym prepared to the people to to fight with us together. So, this is the message message to the people. And then again another one is to the military routine is a two sided group who are opposing you, they are the people who are like opposing you and also we never give up and we are fighting and then we don't want you we want to overthrow you. So, we will give the message to the military regime. So, all of these underground activities heavy like kind of having like these kind of objectives or having like this kind of idea to give the message to the people as well as to the to the military regime. And then the activities we're doing is like, very different ways and growing in underground way and law doing a lot by doing so, the military the trying to find out who we are and also what what our generation wave and also to try trying to find out and trying to arrest us and don't need to dollar H imarc in in March Suriname foreigners have been arrested since the time they start our track tracking or like finding organization and then slowly trying to stop our movement, but they could not actually because even though the rest are members, even though the rest are founders, but the waves stay going to cannot do cannot stop the waves, I mean the waves means like the wave trying for humor and democracy, the waves were fighting for the freedom, so, they cannot stop. So, even though the rest are members, so, we keep continuing our activities, our movement secretly and in different ways. So, after me like because of these movement, many of our members have been raised that even me personally I need to flat or hide in a in a in a safe place. So, I need to be like in a remote area. So, because of because of the bad, we never stop our movement. So, we keep continuing our movement and we keep mobilizing the young people we keep like doing the underground activities and then into the age. So we conduct more activities. So we mobilize young people and we train and we give awareness raising to the young people. Okay, well she Mariah and what is democracy and also like, we organize on we conduct our secret training for the activists and and we train them and then they continue working like that now, they continue like actively walking involved in the in the movement. And then again, like in 2008 and 2009 to downtown, we got more engaged with the different partner organization as well as to the international organizations. So we give more, we can have more engaged with international organization as well. So that time we also did advocacy, and we also shared what is happening in the country, to the international country or international organization, or community as well. And also like we raised our issues in the International delivers. So by this way, we keep continuing our movement. And yeah, in 2011, we are walking open again, after, after the civilian, after the military government, they change the uniform, and they became a civilian government in 2010. After that, in 2011, we work openly at this so I can continue to the into another part. So if I go back to the background of the organization's into the login, login to Donna, eight, nine and 10. So in that period, we did many, and a variety of these, we do many like awareness raising to the pupil, we mobilize and motivate young people to come and walk or to, to fight for him, right democracy to stand with us together. So we raise awareness a lot in these time, in underground way. And I saw after we got engaged with the international organization, so we raise more, we demand more, and we encourage more to the international community as well to take action against a military regime like that. So that tie their time, this time of war, we are walking into Dawn AGI and similar right now, again, because after the military coup in 2021. So it I mean, for me, personally, it is repeating again, for me, because into Donna sever, so when I start when I start getting engaged in politics, so because to overthrow the military regime, I don't like the military. So I need to make a change, I need to overthrow the regime. So that's why I informed the parties. I did and the grantees. And then now currently after the coop is similar. I mean, my life is repeating and care, trying to be a hygiene, doing underground activities. Again, mobilizing more and more again, because all the things are to make system change and to overthrown the military regime. But of course now got more experience of like what we want it certainly and what how we want our country. Certainly so after like many years experience, we have more clear vision, we have more more knowledge how to deal with the current situation.
Host 33:04
Wow, thanks for sharing that. That's that's really quite a lot to take in. And it's quite something too, you know, we know the the contours of Myanmar history we know about the Saffron Revolution and the democratic transition. And then the the, of course, the current coup and democracy movement. But these national events really mirror your whole life. It sounds as though your life has been dedicated to trying to resist the military oppression and all these different checkpoints and waystations along the way. So that's really quite something. And it's really quite a bit of dedication and sacrifice that you've been willing to take on for the betterment of your people in your country. I'm really curious what your thoughts are on this democratic transition that happened in 2010, especially after 2015. This is something we've heard so much about there, people that have expressed all different views on it from it being a shit, some kind of Sham, and no democracy at all. And really just just the same old thing to people who say no, this was a legitimate effort to really move in a democratic transition. And there were a lot of things in play that were in a very difficult operating situation at the time that were trying to be effective and successful and very different in very difficult conditions. So as someone who was an activist for so many years before, the so called democratic transition took place, and continued to be an activist and doing activities and pushing for reforms in education and everything. After 2015. I'm wondering what your personal views are when you look at the 2000 10s and especially 15 to 20. When you look at this period, how do you how do you see Did you see it as something authentic or genuine or or trying to trying to be under difficult circumstances in some way? Or do you did you view it as something that was kind of doomed to fail and and problematic and in, in very serious ways from the start,
Bobo 35:05
yes, in 2010. Like the military reforms to be civilian government, and then the time into the 10, a toy, many political leaders have been released, and they're trying to transform and trying to do in the transition to democracy. And that that time, yeah, of course, the country opened up a little bit there, under the military regime, but of course, is not totally reform, it is not a really, really open, fully open app. But it is what we consider that situations it is all up down under the military regime. So it is the so it is the first point that I would like to raise, and they're okay to want to connect back to, to our hips or to our story. So in, like in 2007, eight, and nine to nine, we were underground, and we like hiding. We are in a sigh. And we're continuing the activities and our movement. And, yeah, of course, as you know, many of our members have been arrested and our organization are in the playlist. of all, I mean, at the bloodlust for the, for the military regime. And then in 2010, as we are known that the country does have a civilian government are like no, now we have civilian government and the country is changing the country's transition to democracy, so the country open up. So that's what the narrative of the military to the International to the international community's organizations. So, we took that we took that turning point as well. Okay. We will walk openly again, will be visible by them again. And so, that's why we did our anniversary, I mean, our organization anniversary a year ago, and before we did that, we have many discussion. And okay, now, they said the country is changing Apple app and the country is in transition to democracy right now to just what they said and then then okay, we discussed okay. So, if they say so, we will walk openly. And if they cannot arrest us, okay, we can say that the country is not changing. And we can say to the international community, you can say, okay, the country is not changing, is the fake consider if they can't arrest and if they don't address that, okay, we're keep engaged with more people and we do more activities opening that time. And then we have that discussion after after that discussion. And we decided to open and to start. Like to start organizing our, our, like, anniversary, our organization anniversary, and after we did that, yeah, many informers and intelligence, like kept coming in and taking the information, but it didn't raise anybody. So since the tie, we keep continuing our add to our activities, which we did, visible to our staff, I mean, and then we can we get more antigen out, we get more engaged and we go wider and wider communication to the people throughout the country. So this is also the turning point of the organization to be from the underground, it activist groups and to be on ground activist organization again, and they're in that time so Are we we can see that we I mean, we are one of the earliest group earliest activist organization who are turning back into the like, like McGraw Hill organization. So, it is it is the part and in that time as we continue our movement more and more openly and we did many engagement with civil society organization a lot and then in 2012 Energy additionally for democracy led by Aung San su chi the the involved in the buying election in 2012 and the womb Yeah, same seat and then into data into Dunham 15 to begin low energy led government, they did began the government and the cover and in 2015 and 20. They, I mean, we have the energy led government and yeah, when we are observing to that situation, we can see that the country is opening up there more freedom when we compared to the military regime, we have more we can feed the case of democracy for some years. So, that's why to say that after two dominant turn to Donald 15 election, we have more democratic government then, and your military routine, they're the current coop. So, in that previous son of the entire period, many people are feeling or many many people has got the freedom Mini Cooper has got open the app more and more. So, we can assess to that situation. But of course, it is not totally perfect, when we when we are looking at the human rights situation, it is not totally okay totally perfect. Even entered the energy lead event under an allergy government. But of course, that there I mean in some point is better than the military, civilian government of course, it is better in some point it is better yeah is open up, but of course when when we are looking back to the human rights situation it is not fulfilled and also when we unlike when we are like talking for the like February democratic country Yeah, of course it is not stay fulfilled. And also when we're talking about the human rights situation like in like many routes, Rohingya has been killed also flat D also flood it is kind of like crimes again human to sort of general setting happened to Rohingya in our country. So, to say that to see that to assess to that situation, we say okay, yeah, of course it is the human rights situation. So, not better. No. No 100% of human rights situations are improved. But of course, what we can say is yeah, we have more freedom, the country is more or per AP non competitive military regime. And so, in that tie, our organization rule is like, the more like to do civil society organization. We began more and more like that, and then we did many of our cases to the government. And okay, hey, you should respect this. And also you should make law concerning with that freedom and like, you know, expression freedom of movement, there is like the law which is developed by the military civilian government of law back there. And I would say, Hey, okay, this law should be abolished. So like these things we were doing a lot after so called democratic government. We did many like law reform teams, okay. Also okay, like constitutional reform. We did. We advocated Many things like that either enter the civilian government and into the 15. We continue like, doing like, we have a creating obligation to the government recommendation policy recommendation to the civilian government a lot. But yeah, again, into 2021. That could happen. Yeah. As we all know, the Google Canada again. So, when we, when I go back to your questions, so the our assessment, I mean, like, our observation, to the 2020 2011 to 2021. So in that period, or assessment, I will say, Yes, it is more freedom. Yes, people has more aware on policies, that yes, distribution is better than now, the situation better the other military regime. We can see like that. But of course, as I told you, the Human Rights value some human rights perspective, or not, all my perspective and also like the, from the perspective of human rights, and also the perspective of law, the equality, or maybe like for the admin people groups are not 100% fulfilled in that time, but now, yeah, it is much more, much more difficult. Yeah, we need to make to another move another step for our country.
Host 46:49
Thank you for that. Thank you for that description. You reference being involved in generation wave, this is quite an important youth organization, before the coup that was active after the coup has been even more important. For those listeners who are not familiar with generation wave, can you describe what how the organization was founded, what it's been doing in the years before the coup, and then the role that it played after the coup took place,
Bobo 47:15
and generation wave is founded in 2007, after suffering with pollution, so with the objective, to overthrowing the military regime, and to fight for to bring humor and democracy to the country, so that we found that the organization to Donna to Donald seven. And then the tie, as I mentioned before, we did many undergrad activities, many anagram movement, like give the message to the people like mobilize and motivate to the empty bear. And we give like capacity building to the young people with tray and are we actively involved in the movement. And yeah, by this way, we did integral activities, sinks into the other seven. And they're what we, after the one we call up, like when we call up our own grandma in 2010 11. So in that time, we did many activities such as advocacy and campaigning, also, like giving capacity building trainings to the young people. And also we did like human rights documentation. So we call it the human rights violations committed by different stakeholders. And then we would did the advocacy based on the data that we have. And also, we did several things for the reforms of the country. So we also like advocate a lot for the law reforms, which are repressed to the people. And so we did advocating a lot like that. And then so it's before the coop as well. And then after the Couve we are supporting to the human rights defenders. Like we support technically like by giving the trainee and also by supporting their security issues. So we are supporting to this. And then again, we also doing like we still continuing like our human rights documentations and especially based on civil and political rights issues. And we are doing that and also we're doing like campaign and now working Alpha JC we're doing that as well. And we also like, now, we also like, involving in the strike committees, and we continue like discussing and we'll continue like actively involved in the movement Yeah, we keep fighting it and then and again for the revolution for the spring fraud enter this spring revolution we draw I mean, we draw I mean, we discussed for our strategy are for what So, we did brainstorming and discuss a lot. So, after that the activities that we are doing is supporting to the current movement and current resolution. So, we based on our experience, but based on our expertise, and we have now, we are trying to support to the movement, and also we are being involved in the movement, and also being connected with all the our allied organizations throughout the country. Yeah, not just only to our country, as well as to the out in our internal allied Alliance organization, internationally, we are so committed to that. So, basically this generation we're doing, and also our goal, our objective is to overthrow the military regime, and we are fighting for marine democracy, to have a peaceful, fairer democratic country. So, that's why we are, that's what we are aiming and so, that's what we are, we are doing it now, and we are continuing to ante, we reach to our goal. So, we said to ourselves, generation with it means our movement and our attempts, our movement, our attempts, our fight for democracy, peaceful or for democracy, to be a fairer democratic country. So, we see ourselves okay, we are like, the waves are going wave by wave to reach to the, to reach to the goal, to reach to our goal. So, the waves that come in, wave by wave, and also also hear our movement and our generation, coming wave by wave to reach to our goals to reach to bring and to fight for numeric democracy, and who will lose it. So, this I will say, we stay continuing doing it and also will stay, continue to fight until we reach to our pelvis
Host 53:02
right. Yeah, and we should mention that when generation wave was founded, one of the, the leading members was, of course, because they are thought he was the Burmese hip hop star, credited with bringing hip hop into the country also later a Member of Parliament, who was quite active in the form of the formation and the early activities of generation wave, of course, because they are thought tragically was executed in cold blood. After a sham trial a couple of months ago, it was very devastating for many people who knew him and who were following the democracy movement. And, and so I'm wondering, I know this can be a difficult subject to talk about i If, if you feel comfortable in talking and sharing memories of him and cosy are thoughts involvement in generation wave your relationship with him some of what he did and what he brought to this movement and just just memories of, of working alongside him and what he meant to generation wave and the democracy movement in general in Myanmar.
Bobo 54:10
So, Seattle is one of our generation will founder and one of our leaders who started founded the organization in 2007. Very few words arrested in 2008. In March, during during the planning of the public movement into the eighth rvsp rested and after he is released. He continued in generation wave into Donna TWIA. He began the energy member missing a lead for democracy member and anti party member. He dive into politics and literature he became number of times element in 2012 and 250. So generation with is one of the part in his life. And also politicking. Being a politician is also one of the things is life. And even before that, before generation wave, I mean, I am one of our, they're their music band, and we're not a fan of them. So, personally, when I look at to cozia door, I'm always very proud of him because of our leaders, because our our founders coat off kind of like the ideas for GMP are in the country. And his attempt to do his sacrifice to democracy and human rights in the country are very huge, he is always standing for the people in the country, he is always standing for the country, he always stand for justice, and then then makes to give inspiration to the young people. And now after the cool, he also did law committed a lot to do to the revolution. And also Yeah, of course, they also give inspiration to the MP wrestler after he has been rested again. And finally after executed we got more we got more angry, got more angry 20 to 10 military regime. And then as personally I will see I'm really respect and also very proud to walked together with him to be involved to be involved in the movement and to fight together for the for our country. So I'm very for profit, but what the one thing I would say even though the brutal military regime even though they pay him even though they kill him, so to cannot create the separate of him at the cannot create the belief or him. And because because even though the key to the people, the movement is never stop to cannot create a movement. They cannot keep our fights to human rights and democracy and our paper fishing or people dream for the country didn't ever Kincaid. So that's why Jim Cooper. I mean, that's why the inspiration from Hoosier door. Days motion is going a lot. And now even now, the movement are continuing and the attempt the fight for remind democracy are struggling. So it is never stop. And also Yeah, the last one that I will say from from the perspective of the organization, I will say, Yeah, we lost one of our comrades. We lost one of our founders, so it is a bit lost for us. Yeah, we lost one of our brother. And from the perspective of the movement and the country, we see Yeah, we lost one of our the hero. He is one of the fell fallen helo hero for the country. And his cue will be always I mean, his spiritual areas are always working with the people in the country.
Host 59:16
And thank you for that. I can't imagine how much That must hurt on so many levels. Thank you for recalling him and his good qualities and what he gave. Just one last question before we move on to what's happened since the coup. Going back to the democratic transition period, you reference how the NLD was not perfect, but it was certainly better than what we've seen before if passed military regimes in 2015 2020. The NLD had a bit more power after the election still not fully in control. However, there were a lot of well known and well publicized concerns during that time, such as the way they were treating journalists. Of course, the whole Rohingya crisis. I don't need to go into detail there. Have some of the actions they did that made a lot of international observers quite worried and concerned. But I'm wondering as far as like generation Waveland, as far as you personally went, as far as your comrades, fellow activists that were pushing for change to democracy, human rights, how were your interactions with with NLD? Did you were were you guys and you personally in your organization safe under when when LD was in charge? Or were there also risks and tensions that were coming not just from the military regime, which, of course, we would expect, and we know of over so many years, and you it's, the same old dog is going to keep doing what it's going to do. But in terms of the NLD, what was your relationship with them when they had a bit more control after the 2015 elections?
Bobo 1:00:50
Actually, you know, governments are always actually like, as a government, and activists or at as an activist. So the roles are different. So from the role of generation, we've offered the role of activists, we always say, what we want, and we always say, what it should be for the country and also for the people in for the people. So that's why we advocate a lot to them to the NLD government as well. And also, sometimes we criticize a lot to the Atlantic government, especially on the issues of human rights. And like that, so the relation, I mean, our relation with the NLD government or I would say it is not. Now, I would say it is now similar with the relation with the military, of course, we cannot relate with the military, but we can relate with the energy government. Yeah, of course, we have got connection, I mean, in some parts, we can communicate well, and we can raise well, and also really listen to our voices. That I mean, after 2015 as being activists, we always can be threatened by the, by the government, always even what is whatever it is an ally government or civilian government or democratic government, that can be always a threat to the activist. So Sam, we are also not Sam, I mean, not directly with the duration with but with our colleagues, from our networks, they have been like, like, charged with different laws. And they've been charged at the book, they're being put in prison, either under an NDA government. So to to compare the risk with them with the, with their military regime, yeah, to risk less, that they are still risk, they're still treasury. So as I told before, governments are doing what they're doing, activists are doing, what we have to do, there are always risks for risk for the activist in the country, and also, as we criticize a lot to do, any government and sometimes they also like really like, don't like arts, because they may see how we occur. Now, we our country is like in the transition process, we need to bid a lot and also it needs to take time. Yeah, we understand that issue, we we cannot beat up the country, quickly, it has to take time we understand that. We also agree what you say that the team is, whatever you are doing, wherever you are, you have to say like you have to respect the value of human rights. And you cannot use the repressive law to violate the freedom of puberty and also Yeah, like that, but no to DSD using that. So that's why we all we advocate and recommend a disclosure should be abolished like that. So that is where we would talk to them. So to talk to conclude to this, to this privacy Energy, our energy, our own comparative energies, government and when compared to the military regime, energy government. Times are much more frequent than military regime. But of course, yeah. As we taught a central you whom array of numeric values and also bringing peace among the an ethnic groups are not not always fruitful, even under energy type. Yeah,
Host 1:05:35
that's a great answer. Yeah, the activists are going to be activist the government's going to be the government, that's probably true, probably some kind of universal law. But moving on now to the coup, I think we've had a really robust and good understanding of your background, your activism, your values, sacrifices, I'm sure there's so much more there in those 15 years or so that we can explore. But it's it's a good grounding for moving on to the second part of our interview, here at the midway point of our discussion. So now it's February 1 2021, the coup has happened. And of course, the question that I have to ask is, were you expecting it and where were you? How did you learn of it, and then, as someone like you, I mean, you've been doing years and years of activism and that really separates you from a lot of the youth who is now taking part so many members of this of the youth who are engaged in in resisting the military regime, they had to learn everything they were doing, from the time the coup was launched, they're coming from their university classes from their jobs of being an IT or a waiter or marketing company or taxi driver, whatever it is, and they're just learning on the fly, how to resist professional military you have been doing this for 15 years. So you know very well, what this military is, what their tactics are, how they go about things you are a step ahead at that point. And so I assume stepped into some kind of leadership position for those initial moments so if you could just walk us through the coup happening your reaction and then your activity in the following days and weeks and months. Yeah.
Bobo 1:07:11
After the coop have actually at the morning very early morning I got a phone call from my friends. I had a military to cook they announced to coop a roast the president arose this took House of Lords our many political views and when I heard the news I was like I mean in that moment I feel I was begin like honestly there is nothing in my honor. I began speechless I begin bring less the timer for four for seven minutes and then and then I feel like oh my god do you think it will get the it was so so crazy moment for for me. I mean it is personally I mean even before that we have some new we have like some rumors that you're going to cook and we say Oh no. And they can coop because the Constitution constitutions are protecting them while they are would like to take cool similarities to the roommate discussion like that, but we didn't think a lot Okay, they're going to take coop also personal identities but they're going to take who and they don't want me when I heard that news. I feel like speechless and also even can move or when cannot think just for seven minutes. So this is my fine person efficiently after the coop and then as an organization. Everyone also not everyone I would say every army like all the people in a country with fees like similar with me i i believe that i can say that. So for one or two days, not wanting to yell for one day we trying to reach out to people who we know and also we are we start I mean, received the information of our college has been rest there. So we trying to follow the news. And then after that, like, into, in our second day, I think firstly, of the coup, or in Mendeley when our colleagues start public protest against the coop, and then on second do 30 or the coop, like in Django, the walkers, they start marching against the military coop. So since that time, the movement army let the Public Protector getting wider, wider, wider and like all the people or all people from different backgrounds, Dr. RT came out on the street and also trying to say that they don't like they oppose the coop. And we are also there and also we organize, trying to organize the protest and marching and also trying to organize to give a speech to the people. Of course, the time people are the are the are the first time when they came out on the street and they they just spread out what they were feeling. And they just spread out that they don't like the disagree with the coop and then leisure Of course, I mean activists or like politicians, we need a leader for the movement, because what is our objective, I mean, what is how much we want to reach from this. So, that is the I mean, the leader is of the moment that you should take a role in it. And so, that's why we organize speech, we organize our public speech and and yeah, so, by this way, we are involved in in the in the movement, and then again after that, like we communicate with our colleagues, colleagues mean with colleagues or with like, from our are like older generation or maybe like the leader of the movement, because there's so many leaders in different in different area in the country. So, we start to gather I mean good, I mean, we start to recruit it and then trying to organize a meeting the other type of some are online some are offline and then and then we realize okay, well, we should I mean, we should we should discuss what message that we want to deliver. And so, how we will would like to bring the movement and if so, at the beginning of the cooter discussion what happened like that, and then at the same time, every day, every day, every area there are many people are on the street and also the organized find themselves the organizers in their own groups. I mean, for example, at Sam bank, different school, different university or library organized by them, sir and they do lead they're there, they're trying to lead their marching they lead their protest and after that, like after there and then we make a meetings with the leaders from district leaders were made meeting to discuss okay, how we organize, how should we continue and also what political message that we want to deliver even in the protest. So, by this way, we we we started involved in organizing these networks or that that comment, so, it becomes like one of the, so, now, we are also involved in the general strike collaboration common to also involvement there. And also we also involved in general strike coordination body, Amin, which is involved from I mean, in that general strike coordination bodies, there are many strike committees from around the country, the involve in there and now we discussed okay, what message today that we are going to deliver during the protest of marching So, by this way, we discuss the message and then I mean at the beginning of the march and then there are different different kinds of activities are ongoing. So, we are organizing and we are involved in it and that into like the start correct our shoot to I mean to the protesting nebula So, one of the one of the care has been killed there and then they start chrigel In different two different parts of the country also agent go where what what a live you can go on the stalker down and use tear gas and they start shooting people first they use rubber bullets and also after that they use really cool it but it is not I mean yeah, there are even the crackdown that in different forms, but the street protests are ongoing in different form, but some are coming and joining in the in the movement are in the pretest and after the crash are more and more and many of many people has been arrested as well also our colonies in France has had been arrested and then sued the last I mean you can go the last place of the protest are me which which is around our office area. So, if we stick we stay we will stay there actually. And then finally after the big crowd diet after the military after the big crowd after many people has been key after many people has been raised at and the street protest me like the strike on the street are getting less and less. And then But of that event like that, you went into the correct arm but there are some flashmob protest against to it are still happening from time to time like like the movement going to be underground way of course. And then of course, some PMP burrs or some leaders movements and movement leaders out there trying to hide some of the rest and then the situation push us push us to choose the resistance. So, so the movement just like the me like the flow of the movement are going like this like this and also some are like choosing resistance. So anti now and then now as a generation wave where we are, I mean one of our approaches in non violent way. So we what we are doing right now is like we are supporting to the strike to the strike leaders, to the activists to the young people who are stay active in the movement. So all we're doing is we're trying to support them. For this for the sake of their security, we support that. And also, we also like sharing the tactics of nonviolent movement because you've earned like our generation wave into the other seven we are receiving the knowledge of nonviolent movement and so now we are also sharing it okay. The number one approach is not not to choose only district port protests not to come not just only to confirmed with the military, but there are so many strategies that we can we can make we can to them. So that's what we are sharing and also, even now ourself, we are also like, approaching and like doing in a non violent way, we call it like politic, it defines math that we're using that and also now, we're still trying to make them weaker and weaker. And they're trying to contribute to this revolution, and strategizing for a different approach to defeat to the brutal military regime. And yeah, we are doing so many things, of course, like the activities that we are doing, and also how our approaching, I will not say here, of course, because of some of the information, I will keep it here. But what I will say is, as generation we've, we are evolving in the beginning, we are facility, organizing, facilitating, and also sharing knowledge supporting from our best. And that is, entity, how it looks like how we contribute in the beginning of the coop,
Host 1:21:15
thank you for that, thank you for going through all of those months, and now yours to give us a picture of what was happening in the country in what you were doing personally, the thing I want to go back and hit on from what you were just talking about, that interested me. And I think it'd be quite informative for our listeners, as you reference how, ultimately, as we all know, the armed resistance had to take form. There were months and months of nonviolent protests, there were many attempts at getting international support to try and to engage with military and police and it was all for naught. It was ultimately the because of the violence and the crackdowns and armed resistance did form. And there's been some misunderstanding about that, I think abroad, there's been a concern that it's a it's an emerging civil war, that it's a that both sides are now engaged in different kinds of violent actions. And there's this kind of what about ism, where you're? What about Islam? You're asking, what about this? Or what about that? And by constantly asking what about this or that you're not looking at the central problem of what is actually taking place, because you're constantly being distracted. In any case, you reference how a generation wave you have adhered to your principles of non violence through this and that the activities of your organization continues to be strictly non violent, while also referencing this armed resistance. And so I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about your, well, first, if you can explain the nature of this arm resistance and how it was formed and what shape it's taking how its how the arm resistance is then coordinating with the non violent parts with the how it's coordinated with, for example, the civil disobedience movement, or different activist organizations and ug different entities and movements within Myanmar that are not taking up arms, how these things are working together. And then also what why the art in your opinion, why the armed resistance formed, what it's trying to do, and where you as far as and again, as far as it's safe to share where you personally in your organization are fitting in with the overall resistance movement, including the arm segment that is now taking place against the military regime.
Bobo 1:23:31
So first, I would like to share like the crud after military routine. Putin has the violence to do people are pushing to the I mean, are driving it makes it makes people to choose the resistance. It is just because of them. And then you cannot are yes at all, you cannot go and confront directly with them. Because they are Putin as everybody knows the highest they do. They do. I mean, the brutality is you can imagine now, so that's why it drives people to choose the M resistance. And then the Emerald systems are Ugh. Okay. To say that I mean, like, it's only my personal opinion. And and resistance are like choosing bind young people is because we have to resist it. We, they, they're, I mean, like they at the military, they are scared and they use finance they use webcams, to put Tatom said it mean, they afraid of us to scare us. And then if we have arms, if we can fight back to them, If, of course, we don't want to choose to the resistant, but we have to, we have no choice. And then from this will continue fighting to the will continue fighting to them. So that's why many young people are like start choosing the MO system. And to this, I mean, there might be other reasons, but it is the mind of my personal observation. Okay, it's one part. And then while we can, I mean, when we looking back to the one we are like, seeing or observing to the current situation, yes, and resistance are ongoing. Many people are also like, supporting to get maybe like, directly or indirectly support into it. And also waiting for it is the one point that I would like to mention. And then also now we have the energy government. And they also like they also like giving command to they're trying to organize everything, I mean, I've heard some Ministry of Defense, they're trying to catch up, enter, get enter their, their control, and they're trying to organize it to be now they're trying to go more systematically to be enter the international law or military Korea conduct like this, they try to do it systematically their way. So, that is what the can do and is also what energy is also doing. But at the same time, there are many different AMS groups not under any energy, but they also like having like this sense of okay to oppose to the military or buying, buying and resistance movement. And then again, some are like having a very, very like long fishing to choose the amorous system movement. So, different groups are may have like their different different approach or different objectives, they may have it, but the only the commodification is like yeah, to overthrow the military regime to overthrow our to stop or to add all forms of our diverse ship in the country. So, today's there is that all our command goes into revolution. So, like, this angry system movements are like choosing by all these groups of people, and then as a rule of us as generation with and we are not saying we don't read them that and we need like this kind of movement as well. For us what our approaches, we need all forms of movement or to win this revolution, okay, some people were choosing and resisted movement, we are, we understand, we understand to that, even though we are not directly relating a religion having religion to it, but we always keep track of the end resistant movement, okay, how were they harmed they are now some things we are always keep track on it. But at the same time, I mean, as the expertise or I mean, like the rule of generation where it's like we are okay, we are approaching from nonviolent resistance movement, because that is what we can do. They also they also are a cog expertise. That is what our approach looks like. So that's why now, from the perspective of Nirvana approach, we are using all the matters to contribute in the movement. And there Yeah, of course, we have a strategy to we have the strategy to to win and move Listening. So in that, under that it is the M resistor movement are part of it. But even though we are not directly on that track of M resistance movement, but we will keep our eyes on it. And also, we tried to balance the movement between nonviolent resistance and also M resistance. So, that is what we're doing so far. But, of course, our friends, our colleagues, our alliance also are in their arms, wrists and feet as well. But what I wear, say is the movement to win the revolution, to bring down the military dictatorship, and to bring back humor and peace democracy in our country. So, we need to go in different ways in different forms of the movement. And of course, the most important things enter nonviolent offender and resistance it is it is defining for the the M resistor is defining also, the more moves another important thing they need to like, follow their international code of conduct, especially in the war zone like this, but as far as we understand, and Yugi is like trying to be like that as well. Another thing is, are the need to responsible or take, take responsibility for the things that you have done. So, when we when the country is in the transition teams, so are from the perspective of the transition of justice, so, they will take, or they need to take them responsibility. Yeah. Again, as far as we understand, they also would take that responsibility as well. So, of course, I'm resistance movement are very difficult as well. And also very controversial things are happening there as well. But anyway, what I would just say is the need to follow international code of conduct. And also, we need the end resistance for the country as well. We never can choose only one taxes or one perspective to for the movement. But we all all need to resist in different forms. So that's why we can if we, if we do that, one day, we'll say I believe we can bring down the details ship in one day.
Host 1:33:12
Right, that helps to clarify that it helps offer some additional information to put all this in context and looking at putting more in context and checking it out another matter. We're two years into the resistance movement. It's been two years since the military attempted a coup to take over the country, they some would say they have not succeeded because they have been contested at every turn, they don't control nearly the entire country. And there's there's opposition groups that have gained control and even administering different areas. But two years is a long time two years is a long time to feel unsafe, it's a long time to have a collapsed economy, it's a long time to have no sense of human rights and not be able to live one's life in any kind of normal way. I simply can't imagine the stress and the strain and the tension of being in Myanmar these years and having to survive and manage that period of time with given how how terrible and bad things have been every day and how dangerous everything is. I'm wondering about the current state of the resistance movement. Two years is a long time to maintain that type of energy for the populace. For someone like you who's been doing it for literally decades. You somehow have something built in that has or that you've developed or cultivated that has where you you have risen to the level for many years of working towards these values, no matter what no matter what the risk or the sacrifice but for a general populace Aisha, this is a long time to maintain. And I've been hearing about some some of the disillusionment that some of the youth has gone through as well as depression and, and just the uncertainty of what's coming next. And just there's this sense of wanting to maintain the morale of this resistance movement. And so I'm wondering if you can speak to from your vantage point from your position and people you talk to in groups that that you're in, in seeing the overall energy? How would you describe the strength and the morale of the resistance group today? How are they feeling? How are they doing? How are they able to maintain? What do you see that makes you optimistic? What do you see that might concern you? What can you tell us about the general state of the opposition and the resistance? the democracy movement today?
Bobo 1:35:52
Yeah, generally, what I would say is like, of course, as long as the movement taking too long to support of the pupil, or maybe the resistance of the pupil can be getting, like, maybe less than No, I would not say less, I mean, you know, maybe people cannot resist more and more, because, of course, they have done a lot and also to sacrifice a lot, a lot. And for the time being, it is really, really very intense, challenging to the people as well. And yeah, of course, they're always depression. They're always like, many people, yeah, sometimes also arts, we got sent a protest. But then anyway, we are we motivate our staff. And also we want to think about, like, why when we think about like, our colleagues, our people have been rested, why don't we bring our pupil has been created. So when we think of the fallen, fallen heroes, so they always remind us, we cannot stop, we cannot, we never can stop, we have to do it, we have to do more and more we're doing more and more, we're trying to reach and to reach we're trying to find and to reach our goals. So, we always remind us, I mean, in this way. So, there is the thing, how we remind how we motivate ourselves, we also understand the people and also the resistance like how it looks about ha how much they do fee. Yeah, of course, we also understand why people are like looking or like expecting something. Yeah, of course, we also understand like, they would like to see something right now, we also would like to see see something right now, sanctuary right now. So, to this, we understand that the nature of the people that want to assess back to the current situation for what I mean, I mean in future, what it should be and what it looks like and also what direction we should go. So, when we are assessing, when we are assessing to this. The first thing what I would say is we always need to strategizing or evaluating in the current situation current movement, not only like I mean not only our Mo system, not only like our non violent resistor, but in every resistor, in all form all resistor, we always need to keep on traveling it we need to evaluate, we need to re strategize to it sometimes as a fee like we put some of our efforts in wrong duration. But what I would just say is rather than we put our 14 Wrong duration we need to focus more what we should do and what we have to do we need to focus with. So that's what the date is much more with the responsibility of the politic air, I mean, the movement leader of for example, like and UCC also the N ug as well, so that is more responsibility to them. And again, what I will also say another thing is from the prepper side prepper is petty in this. But from the leaders we lose Still need to understand that. And also, all my suggestion and also from now forward is like to evaluate or to re strategize to move forward. And also, again, of course, we all have, as far as scientists, as far as I know, we all have the common vision for future country. Yeah, of course, we need to have that, but then, when we are focusing on the current movement and resistance, we need to focus on it more and more and more deeply, rather than it is just only on the air, but we need to focus and we need to look back to the real situation. So, that is what, what I would like to see. So, from us from generation we what we are trying to do is yeah, we set up our mission. Also to reach Amina to contribute to the revolution, we set up our missions, we have it. So, we implement I mean, we implemented to our best, of course, only us we cannot make the revolution when, of course, all all people all the allowance or the like state aerosol. Yeah, everyone need to be in the movement and need to make a change. If there's, yeah, Saito only generation we've cannot do but we all have to be together. So to cook to conclude this, I would say, Yeah, of course, when we got demotivated, so we need to try to think of what we want to achieve, and also to figure out how much people sacrifice right in front of us, also, our fallen heroes, heroes, also our colleagues. So by seeing that, to motivate ourselves is one thing, again, is we cannot stop the movement, we need to go into from farms. But of course, we need to also respect to our values and human rights, and we need to be on it. And then another thing is trying to focus on a tease that we want to achieve, rather than we just focus our energy on the different things, or different, wrong direction. So I tried to take all eight. And then And then the last one is the leadership of the movement do have to be more practical predicate to it. So that is what I see. And also what I want to say for the current situation. Also for future,
Host 1:43:15
when you talk about the leadership and you you express a wish that they're more practical that that they they can set a better example of leadership. One of the criticisms of looking at recent Burmese history is that it's been politics have been based more on single people and on personalities than they've been on systems and bureaucracies and protocols. And one of the conversations going forward and a post Hamid, Myanmar and looking at how to have a more stable democracy is to have them not as personality cults or as faith invested in single people, but as systems, building up strong systems that can survive different people, different parties, different ideas, and that the systems themselves are imbued with a strength beyond the temporary personalities of people who may come and go. I wonder if this is a concern that you share a criticism that you also share? And if so, what you think is being done or is not being done or should be done to better transition from these kinds of personality cults, whether it's, you know, military or democracy or or wherever the person is coming from, or as they're transitioning from this into trying to build up stable systems. What what is your view on that? And what do you see that that is being done or that that could be done better?
Bobo 1:44:40
Okay, so in our country in our like history? Yeah, of course. We rely so much on the leaders. Yeah, of course, we need to have leaders in the country in the movement. Africa, we need to have that. But what I would just say is like We need also liters for the revolutions. So as far as we, as far as that we have is like, we have like the positive. I mean I, Leisure's who are also leading right now, we also have it Yeah, of course, we should not depend only on our personal personal things, but we should have a leader who are leading the movement the country to be smart as well. But please, leader also lead to think of, um, for the need to understand among themselves, and also rather than what we want, rather than individual desire, but we all did, they all do need to know or understand to each other and also to need to know how to leave the country for Islam, for instance, are in our country, there's so many different ethnic groups not just only one major ethnic groups, but they're like different ethnic groups. But Dan leisures photographed ethnic groups should camps up together and also trying to talk and trying to make a common vision for the country. Rather than okay, I'm just doing for for my ethnic rather than like that, that need to think for all sorry for all for the country. And so, I mean, in the leadership of the current movement, you will also see like, different approach as well, from different different different ethnic groups, different approach we celebrate, but then what I would like, just to say is, yeah, of course, we should have our, our own visions there, we should have to but at the same time, we also need to have the common vision to get as well so to reach to that command vision, we should fight together, we should come sit together, rather than we're like going on because because we're we're living the country together. So we need to fight together of course, we should have like understanding of each other and of course, we should have our own approach to our code of course, better as a tool we must have come fishing and we must go together to restore communication. The very important thing there is like for to understand to be shorter is really important, rather than like by using your major majority ethnic, let's say okay, chauvinism mindset, if you have that, you cannot, you cannot negotiate a you cannot lead the movement, if you have like this kind of chauvinism mindset. So that what I would just say is, okay, yeah, we need to, I mean, leaders need to have an open mind need to discuss more and more rather than our agenda, new to discuss for the sake of the country, whatever, just want to say something. And also, we also do it as well, but from our from our best, we also doing that, doing that involving sacrifice and committed to it, but before the losers what I would say is like, I don't criticize that they don't have commitment, but of course, the really, really like heavy, strong passion for the country. Yeah, I understand that. But here, what I would just say is, rather than having the tried to, to try to focus on our own agenda, but I would just say it's like trying to focus for all como vision for the country. After we Yeah, of course, there has to be very long vision. Of course, we are not just trying to overthrow Mian I military. But of course we are. I mean, this revolution is for the future of the country, for the for our beating up for our future. country as well. So that I mean, the leaders have need to have all understanding and that are tough. And they're trying to fight or try to resist to every forms of injustice in equality, like this. So in the future, I will see. And I also believe we can come up it one day. Yeah, of course, it is the long, long way. Also, long destiny as well. But yeah, I will say we have to fight together. We have to fight it, we need to focus it. And then we should get rid of our self. emotion or not, I will not see emotion, our self ego used or something? Yeah.
Host 1:50:55
Right. So another question that I have about where we are right now. And what's happening in the Democratic Movement is that there has been very little engagement from foreign actors and foreign supporters. The democratic movement within the country has obviously been led by many Burmese activists such as yourself, but much of its being supported by the diaspora, it's really, the Burmese diaspora around the world is really carrying on the backbreaking burden of trying to find ways to fundraise and support the movement from their own communities. And there has been very, very little involvement from whether it's you're looking at international organizations or or entire countries or even individual donors, you compare in the West, how the Ukraine conflict is followed and supported just in a general way. And you don't see anything nearly similar like like that in, in Myanmar. I think that part of the reason why can definitely be explained to it being further away, and the geopolitical location of of Myanmar is just as different than in other places. It's less understood. Also, Myanmar is extraordinarily complicated and messy in terms of the the recent history, the civil wars that have taken place, and the and all just all the diversity of all the different ethnic and religious groups, it's quite, it's quite a challenge for someone to take the time to be able to understand it, and the media doesn't report on it all that much. Let's face it. So I'm curious, from your point of view, why you think it is that there has not been any real substantial foreign support for the democracy movement? And also looking at it from the perspective of within the democracy movement? Should more have been done? Is there more that could have been done or that still should be done? To better engage foreign actors, whether those actors are legislatures or, or, or journalists, or donors or supporters or or allies, whoever else? Is there? Is there more that should have been done or still can be done to bring in support from more people around the world to understand what's happening and to engage properly? That you would like to see and that that for whatever reason, we haven't seen so much yet.
Bobo 1:53:19
Okay. So first, we also understand like what harms international communities facing, I mean, I mean, every country has their own problems, we understand that. But then, of course, we still would like to read something from here. Yeah, before I go, that, yeah, I will also like to mention the tires for communities, what they have done, and also what they did is really, really great. And very supportive for that revolution as well. So that is what I really would like to thank as well. And also, I'm also very proud again, because wherever we are, I mean pepper, pepper, and permissive pupa wherever we are, we are always put our hand on this revolution as much as we can. So that is what I'm really proud of consenting with the dice for our communities. Because what they look when they look back for the country to support a lot, yeah. Also, I would encourage them to keep continue supporting or to keep continue. raising the prices of the faces of us or all the people in the country is one thing. Again, another one is for the international communities that we understand To the challenges that we are, every country is facing. But what I would like to say is if you want to see democracy in the world, we need to put all our hands on it, rather than putting your own agenda to the top. But if we, if our international communities or all the country in the world, if we say like, Okay, we need to bring peace in the world, and we need to bring democracy and market during the war. So for that, I will say, we all have the responsibility for the war for this word, we all means if some country needs help, if some countries are in problems, or in dangerous, we should not neglect it. And we should do something for that, of course, permits democracy movement, since for a long time, we've got lots of support from our international country as well. But I will also say our democracy is not achieving yet so that's why I will also say to support more and more and now 10 before as well, it is all why I'm saying is, is because if you don't want to see many people has been closed, in Myanmar many people who has been lost their, their, their lives, their, their, their life, and their families. And if you don't want to see this, yeah, you need to support more and more now as well, and then our country struggled to think for a long time and it is not finished yet. And I also would like to race this to see what's happening in Myanmar. So, I will I would like to encourage to look at to the problem softie our country and situation after our country. Yeah, I want to I would like to race to go and see it. And then for the international communities also like the UN, to to take actions more and more, rather than like just discarding rather than like going to the people walk, but I would like to see more actions. Yeah, also, I would like to reference again at the beginning of the coup at the beginning of the protest, you know, some young people want in front of the UN officer give a message how many dead fever need for us to take actions. So, if you again, I will also reduce how many times you need to take actions. And then also another one is, many people will be dead, more and more people will be killed as soon as if you don't want to see that yeah, you need to take action urgently. You cannot wait cannot wait and see. You have to take your actions. So okay, you may ask what actions you need to take like this. And then from the from the things that you can do take all the actions that you can do free time and like okay to to accuse to the military member military, at the International Court. Please do it, you have a lot of evidence you have got proof already. Just take actions. So then, okay, now, China and Russia are always always like objected. So then I'm trying to convince you that you can use your power you can use your library, you can use your freedom or you can put more afford on it. So, there is what you can do is where you can take actions, of course, like humanitarian assistance are urgently needed in the country as so for that When you are supporting to eat, try to try not to cooperate with the military regime trying to cooperate with the ethnic organization, or civil society organization who are trying to help with the, or trying to support to the US human, to your system inside the country. And that again, yeah, of course, like you should recognize, and ug as a legitimate government of the country or of the member, and then trying to support to that. And then again, not to accept or not to recognize the virtual routine as the as a legitimate one. Again, when you two actions don't cooperate or don't related with the military regime, offering similar selling weapons or supporting weapons, don't do that, because these weapons are killing people in, in Myanmar, killing people off Myanmar, the one that you are selling. So I saw like very recently at the military as using a bomb, airstrike killing mass of people killing children killing a bomb blast into the school. So they are using this. So if you're, if you are supporting to it, if you are, like giving legitimacy to the military, it will be much more more and more. If you support to the military, yeah, many people will be more and more. So don't do that. Trying to spot to your past. So yeah, of course, there's a lot of but yeah, I also sometimes feeling that people who would like to take action, who would like to support, do a fine way to support to take actions, we appreciate who are supporting, and we're doing that, but at the same time, we also want to again, do it quickly. And you cannot take time, because many people are dying here. So please do quickly also to the international people, not to the government not not not to the intervention come therefore the international people are trying to listen to the voice of Myanmar and trying to encourage to your government to to take action because as your government will listen to your voices, if you if you put pressure to them. So that's why please use your library to promote us to support us you're supporting to us is also you're supporting to the democracy and then you're supporting to us means you're bringing peace in a Myanmar. Also, if you go beyond that, it also bringing peace and democracy for this award. So please do that.
Host 2:03:30
That's great. Thanks for bringing that to our audience. I really appreciate the time that you've taken. And just have one more question that I want to ask before we wrap up. So much of your talk has been referencing the national movements that have been going on in the last 1520 years and what you've been doing to support pushing for change and positive ways and progressive campaigns and human rights and democracy. I realized that you've been talking so much about the actions you've been doing the work you've been committing to in some of these, these these bigger events and things and movements taking place, that your own personal story hasn't so much been included. I think maybe perhaps that's a testament to the sacrifice and egolessness of how you've been engaged that you you perhaps don't think about yourself or reference yourself as you're thinking about these bigger things that you're striving for. But I want to end with the personal and I want to end with knowing more about you and how you're doing emotionally and physically and mentally and spiritually even anything else. We've been talking a lot about how Myanmar is doing how the democracy movement is doing. But I want to finish by talking about you and just find out how you're doing. You have really been a full time activist since 2007 Saffron Revolution, you've then had two years of absolute terror of this military regime and they're not What they're trying to do and control in resisting them through all of this and where we stand right now as I'm now talking to you, and I'm sure you've had to go into all kinds of hygiene and care for your own safety and those close to you. How are you personally doing? How are you managing through this when you do a personal check in however comfortable you are with whatever you share? Where are you at right now? Personally speaking?
Bobo 2:05:26
Yeah, currently, and Socotra see, please? Yeah. In a safe? Yeah, is the team? Because? Yeah, I would say, for my life, it is a second time to leave home. And to hide and to. So it's my second time. Yeah, of course, there are so many experience for other people as well. For me, personally, it is my second time to be away from home. Yeah, of course, currently, I'm in I see, please. Okay, so my personal thing is, is like, to be honest, I would like to, I don't want to really do like this appear. Politicians, honor of being politicians of atoms, I don't want to be there. And to live very peacefully. And to have fun with friends and family. I want to go as a normal life. Like other people, of course. But now the all my energy and all my commitment are for the revolutions for the movement. So first, I didn't choose but now I choose to be like this. Because when I when I looking back to the people, when I look compared to the movement, I I never think ought to be away from it. Because I want to reach to my goal. My goal is to bring the country safe to bring the country with our floor, peaceful, and also human right democracy, I want to see the country so that it becomes my dream and also to this, what I commit for. Also, mine as a patron is not just only for the country, but also for the ward. Yeah, when we when the revolution, maybe definitely I would do for the, or for the world peaceful. Yeah, we'll share, we'll give our commitment for the war to be peaceful. So my personal thing is I'm more to vote myself always, of course, always depression. But moreover, myself when I, when I get this trend, from the pupular, so it motivates me a lot. So that's why my life, my life, my sacrifice, my life and my commitment, my energy. I sacrifice my life for the revolution, or for the movement for the country. Yeah, of course, for the ward as well. Yeah. That is when I hit people like it the whole entire of my life. Yeah,
Host 2:08:35
that's heavy. That's, that's amazing. It's it's powerful listening to it's also it's I just I hear your dedication, I hear your commitment, and how much you're giving to what you're striving for. And also having the mallet to balance with that the personal factors, and of all of us being human, and all of our own needs, according to this mind body structure that we need to need to take care of, and doing so while striving in this revolution for fundamental change in your society. I think it's it also just strikes me how sometimes the worst things in life and the worst things in the world and in one's country can bring out this countervailing force of some of the best things humanity has to offer. And so as we're reflecting on some of the worst atrocities and ruthless, terrible criminal behavior of the time and on the military regime, greed, selfishness, crimes against humanity, we also have a chance to check in with people like you that are, are really the very opposite of what we're seeing as these deplorable states and at the dredges of society that throughout Myanmar, and I hope that this is something that is also a hope of this platform that the foreign listeners that are tuning in and the allies that they're able to Learn this multi dimensional story. They're not just hearing a story about the cruelty of the military and the victims that are suffering but we're hearing from people like you who are who are empowered and taking these risks and sacrifices and showing us in these conditions no less the very best that humanity has to offer and the possibilities of where our humanity can soar to of what's possible in terms of how much we can give how much we can care about others, how selfless we can be how egoless and from talking to you here, I see you in your life and commitments as a testament to that and a reminder that as depressing and and awful and terrible as the Talmud as actions are, we also have many people like you that are even sometimes without support, doing what you do and sacrificing so much from your personal life to being able to resist this military regime for the betterment of everyone in your country. And that's it's just it's it's such an honor to be able to hear that story and to bring your story to many more listeners who can take it in and appreciate it and benefit from knowing how many people like you there are that are striving for the best that humanity has to offer and trying to create something that will be beneficial to all so I really thank you for taking that time I wish you the best of luck I wish you safety I wish you success and I wish your country and your people the freedom and the human rights that you so much deserve and thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us
Bobo 2:11:35
thank you so much as well for my site our two like free thank you for you as well because I could raise the story voices also the as the last year what I will say is we will never stop will never stop our fight will never stop no one can stop as this fight the revolution is like bringing us to to reach to reach to our goals. Yeah, of course as I told ya. As I told ya, we're bringing freedom, peace, human rights democracy in the country, as well as for the world. One day, I believe it will reach so thank you very much I swear for you for your content and also for your communications.
2:12:43
on you, Georgia yummy swear batini goodbye Luffy. Seeker Shibi don't get Kim me. Linda Niecy Timo Korea see shook her she knew she
2:13:08
had
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been named McCampbell.
Host 2:13:35
We want to take a moment to introduce you to our nonprofit better Burma's online shop, which features handicrafts sourced from artists and communities scattered throughout Myanmar. Far from being mass produced knockoffs. The pieces we offer are unique and handmade, reflecting the wide diversity of different peoples found throughout the country. When Myanmar experienced its transition period, moving towards democracy in late 2010s, after decades of harsh military dictatorship, many Burmese crafts people hope their beautiful work could finally be appreciated beyond the country's borders. But sadly, this was not to be so. Following the military coup, many skilled artists in suddenly found all possibility of continuing their livelihood closed off and began struggling just to feed their families. With this in mind, we prioritize working with artisans from disadvantaged and vulnerable backgrounds, because we know just how hard it can be to survive at the margins of society and Myanmar. This includes such people as those with disabilities, mothers who have contracted HIV AIDS, civil servants on CDM ethnic and religious minorities and more to view these wonderful pieces please visit a local crafts.com That's a loca al Okay, a crafts C R A F T S, one word, a local crafts.com. Otherwise, please consider a donation through our usual channels
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that don't get any longer.
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In life,