Transcript: Episode #128: Chinland’s Forgotten War

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Mike Davis, which was released on October 21st, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

---

00:00

for 18 months after the Myanmar military launched a coup, the country is in the midst of a brutal civil war. Across the nation, 1000s of young people have put their lives on hold to join an armed struggle against the military.

00:27

Some of the faces resistance to coup is coming from the mostly Christian Qin community in the remote west of the country. outgunned but determined, they're proving to be a formidable force that people have for the first time, a real opportunity to get rid of the military, however powerful invade me. Like many who have been forced to flee Myanmar, they watch on as their country falls upon. Leaving ISIL behind, we had for the last for a border between India and the

01:12

Qin state or chin land as it's known to the locals, is one of the most remote and least developed regions in the country.

01:42

We've just jumped on board along both across the India Myanmar border. On one side is pace. And the other title for this is a forgotten war. We're on our way to Finland to meet some of those who have given up everything to fight for their country to fight for freedom.

02:18

Since the war began, this part of Qin state has been cut off from the rest of the country with the military blocking supply lines. Locals now depend on cross border trade the food and medicine, even motorbike.

Host  02:37

You're listening to a special version of the Insight Myanmar podcast, which covers the fallout from the military coup and the Democratic resistance. During this crisis, we're not only ramping up the production of our podcast episodes, but also our blog and other social media platforms as well. So we would like to invite you to check these out along with signing up for our regular newsletter. All of our other projects have been paused indefinitely so we can focus entirely on this emergency. But for now, let's get into our channel. You have any other way that we have a good day today? pleased to be joined here with Matt Davis. And you heard some of his documentary a clip of that to start from the intro. The documentary is called on the frontline of Myanmar's forgotten Civil War from foreign correspondent. And we're going to talk a bit about this documentary, the Myanmar conflict in general as well as Matt's experience in Myanmar. So Matt, thanks so much for making time to join us today.

Matt Davis  04:32

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Host  04:35

Yeah, so let's jump right into this intro that we just heard in which you bring the listener in in describing what is really just a simple journey, but it's actually much more than that. And this is not just the introduction of the film, this is also your personal entry into a conflict zone as well as the reality of what is happening in one part of Myanmar now.

Matt Davis  04:57

Yeah, absolutely. So we I spent I'm sorry. So for many years, I've been working with coloringstar of Myanmar. And of course, like everyone that loves the country or watches the country when the coup unfolded, there was a real sense of shock and a real sense of disbelief. Now, at that time, the media, foreign and Burmese Myanmar media were able to cover the events that are unfolding, at least for that first brief period, before the military unleashed, you know, violent force against peaceful protesters. What we saw was, you know, the, the immediate aftermath was the pressuring of the Burmese journalists and those covering the story that, you know, in that 10 years of democracy, if you will, some type of democracy, we saw a real thriving local journalism industry within the country, I'd formerly live there, the last time under the military regime, and journalists and people that worked in that space were not very, there wasn't very easy as what kind of a lot of risks. What we saw with after the coup was that, you know, these journalists had started to sort of live and work just like their comrades, or colleagues, I should say, in Western countries or other nations. But I had a freedom of speech to some degree, they started to be rounded up and put in prison, and so on. And then, simultaneously, foreign journalists in the country were being pressured to leave and some were detained, we saw but ultimately were able to be released. So journalism kind of disappeared within the country as we know it. Yeah, it was a the anyone caught sharing information and uncovered anything on their phones would be, you know, could be arrested, could be done a summary, summary, arrested, tortured, etc. So covering the conflict became something of a logistical nightmare for people both in the country and the foreign media who were outside of the country. A lot of coverage of the Myanmar crises that happen over time does does focus around the border area with Thailand. And it's something in some ways, China. So that's sort of eastern side, but I was I had began communications with some groups in through the chin resistance, and who suggested that, you know, if you could come up here to northeast India, there is a very large, porous border. You know, it's a region of the world that many people couldn't even point a finger to a map. And so there is miserable, maybe more famously, there's Nagaland, but there's this entire list is long, hundreds and hundreds of miles long roads, rivers, valleys, you know, totally rugged borderline with Myanmar. So, in having these conversations with these various groups, it was proposed that I would make my way to first Delhi, India, and then head further to the northeast region of India, where we would spend we spend a day or two, a very long day, if you will drive into one of these border areas. quite remote, no security forces, of course, either Indian or Myanmar. And we were able to cross over that using a boat, as you may have just heard in the in that tape from the film, cross over the river where we were met. By some of members of these chin resistance groups, we have the chin national army, long established ethnic armed group. And more recently, as we've seen the PDS the people's defence forces around Myanmar created in Chin State, which you land, as they like to call it, the locals. They have twisted that acronym a little bit. Myanmar is a country that loves an acronym, it does your head in and you don't know about it, but basically the PDF of their own as they were known as the CDF. And we were meant by them and myself and a colleague began our journey, a journey of a few weeks through Cheesesteak.

Host  09:04

Thanks for that. That's a good introduction. For those listeners that might not be familiar with Chin State. Of course, Myanmar is filled with so many diverse ethnic ethnicities and regions and geography. Can you give us a quick rundown of how you would characterize Chin State in the chin people?

Matt Davis  09:22

Absolutely, like you just said there are Myanmar is divided into a diverse range of ethnic groups all with their own language and traditions and culture, their own cuisine. And so And of course, when you talk about Myanmar, we have to remember that the majority population that by Ma, who dominate the lower lying parts of the region, they make up the majority of the military, the government and so on, you know, Burma when the British arrived, obviously easy conversion they called the country Burma. And so there's this sort of sense of entitlement or prestige, perhaps that comes with the Burma majority. However, if you move to the border regions of the country, this is these are not common states. These are ethnically diverse. We can rattle off a couple we have the Korean Shan to Cochin, mourn. And then where I went the Chin State now, Chin State. Actually, I mean, Myanmar is a really large country, it's the largest country in Southeast Asia, it's got a extraordinary history and a lot of these boundaries and borders, you know, they're, they're rather arbitrary that kind of hangovers from colonial periods where, you know, some British navigate or whatever they will call just decide this is the line here or that is the line there. And it's where we are in tune state will actually be much more ethnically aligned to those living in the state and neighboring state in India Miserables, the measles, so to share this common ethnicity that sort of known as the Zoes. So there's a if we look from if we, if we, if we look on a map or we look at Chin State, we look towards Yangon, and we look towards low lying Myanmar. It's It's an extraordinary far away. Whereas if you cross just a few valleys, few rivers, your insight, Mizoram, so it's one of those curious parts of the world where, despite borders, there's a lot of interconnected culture, marriage trade, custom. And so an even language, of course, or the language, they spoke about a tune, it's sort of like I guess it's a Spanish and Portuguese type phenomenon, whereas they're not exactly the same, the chimp and the musos, but they can all communicate and they can all get on and a lot of that a lot of that sense of identity is connected back to that miserables heritage, it's not Burmese. In fact, they often wanted to make sure I was quite aware that we are not there means that we don't we don't listen to their music, we don't eat their food, we don't do their things like this is chimps, where the chimp people so it's, it's, it is a very unipolar world, it's also in Myanmar. It's one of the most isolated parts of Myanmar and also one of the least develop now, you've been to Myanmar people have been a know that Myanmar is a developing country, at best to be one of the least developed regions within that country is you know, it's it's been left behind to the genuine rights organizations will actually say that that's actually been a policy of the Myanmar power structure to sort of deny them development and access that they are Christians. So there's a you know, there's a bit that rubs the Burmese majority, that Burmese nationalists element of Myanmar sort of the wrong way. So the chin, in many ways have always been left unto themselves. It's, you know, extraordinary low education levels. It's a difficult region because of its mountains for farming and so on. So they really do rely in many cases on what comes from across the border in India, northeast India, of Mizoram, the capital there the Eisele. You know, there are 10s of 1000s of students living there before the coup. And now since the coup 10s of 1000s more, as refugees have left the country to, I guess, try to survive, there's not you know, the aid, the humanitarian aid that the outer regions of Myanmar relied on has all been cut off since the coup. Our sins are fighting again. So yeah, there's a that relationship is a very strong one across the border in India, so much so that actually these refugees on the Indian side have been, you know, it's a unique proposition, but been looked after, like in a world where refugees genuinely scorned and crushed and put in boxes or cages or, you know, put to the outer in museum, I've got to say I was really blown away as someone who has covered a lot of refugee and conflict stories to see the welcoming nature of this border and this sort of sense that they were in solidarity with these two people who were fighting the attack. Madore Yes, really, you know, it's, there was a story in that I might have to go back and do it. That's yeah, so that's basically it set it up. It is a it's a it's a distinct ethnic group. And they Yeah, that's, that's about it.

Host  14:25

Right. Yeah. Reminds me we had a guest who had studied the study that region as well and the Indian side and had been following the refugee camps there had noted that even though Modi and the New Delhi leadership and India were not exactly friendly to the democratic movement, and were actually cozying up with the military the because of the way that the federal democracy works in India. The local municipal leaders had a lot of freedom and being able to make their own policy whether I don't know official or unofficial and actually welcome those chin refugees in even when the upper leadership of the country wasn't so friendly to that, but with looking more at Chin why? Why did you decide to go in this way of all the ways all the different land crossings, even sea crossings, you could have gone to get into other areas, urban, rural ethnic, why did you choose to come in through chin and do a documentary about Chin's specifically

Matt Davis  15:26

like late last year, sorry, in the early days, where it was when the fighting first began in Malmo, as you know, these are sort of running skirmishes around, you know, amongst these newly formed resistance groups, if you will, but some of the most sort of some of the fiercest resistance, if you will, to the tap Madore and the military bases and, and so on around the country was actually happening up here in Shan State. people hated the military, they didn't want them there. A lot of people had had to flee their lives in Yangon or Mandalay other cities, you know, where the doctors, nurses, students, etc, all these people fled back home due to the coup, and this uncertain future that was being presented to them. There was a town, which fake it was, there is a town that features prominently in my documentary called tantalum. Some of the larger towns in Chin State 10 to 12,000 people live there before the coup, and in September, October, last year, so in 2021. In retaliation for these growing attacks from the Civil Defence Force groups against military targets, the military launched a series of assaults on the town where they basically started flying artillery into the town from that base, the northern end of the of the area, and setting on fire people's homes, and killing anyone that got in the way, the first person they killed in late September was actually a pastor who had come out to try to prevent them burning down his church, he was shot, he's only early 30s, he was shot dead. And they actually cut his wedding finger off and stole his ring. So it sort of set the tone for what was going to happen. Remember, the chimera is a very devout Christian community 95%, say, of the community is a very strong Christian Outlook. So the targeting of churches and the killing of the pastor was seen as a fairly, you know, deliberate messaging that things were going to get worse and things did get worse over the next month or so, you know, there's, you know, it's a sort of a, they've been accused of this scorched earth policy on many occasions, we look back to the Ranger crises several years ago. Now, this tactic of burning down homes and driving people out of their, their living areas into, you know, IDP camps and so on was we could see this don't happen. And there was a bit there was a bit of a campaign that did get some traction in the media and a group of human rights groups, Myanmar watches, penned an open letter to the United Nations saying, Look, something has to give this is, you know, this is the genocidal tendencies here. People have changed, I asked him for some help, and so on and so on. So sort of the story did pop up on my radar. I, through some colleagues, through my networks did speak about the idea of heading to man to tell a story that, you know, at this point, anyway, had had been, I guess, a little bit under reported, it did get some traction, again, the burning down of timeline, but then it's sort of like with everything that story moved on. Ukraine happens. Other things happen, you know, China and Taiwan, there's always something right. So Myanmar's the biggest the greatest tragedy of Myanmar as a country generally is that it gets the headline for a week or two, and then it genuinely gets buried, because so many other things are happening. You know, dare I say Trump's gonna say something, that's enough to just take me out of the headlines, which is a tragedy unto itself. But we have I reached out after this to a couple of toon based organizations in India, who they were familiar with my journalism, actually, they'd seen some of my reporting and those that hadn't then went and checked and verified who I was, I gather, because quite quickly, a response came saying, Look, we we would really like you like Not, not many people have expressed interest in coming here. I don't think that's any one no one's deliberately avoided. It was just sometimes it doesn't. You know, these things have to present themselves sometimes when you're looking at it from a 1000s of 1000s of kilometers or miles away. But when those conversations began, I guess the there was Yeah, there was some good momentum. And I thought, well, you know what this is a, this is a very important part of mine. And we see today, whether it's chan or Saigon and Maguey, some of these regions out west that they've seen some of the heaviest fighting also some of the heaviest, you know, I'll have to say, accusations of war crimes for my journalistic rigor. But look, we've seen some terrible things unfolding in these in these areas, and, you know, summary executions of young people, elderly, but innocent civilians, really, let's be honest. So, yeah, I guess. I have a commissioning editor I work with, so a lot of time covering rather, off the beaten path stories himself, when in his younger days, you know, whether it's West popular, or Timor, or Afghanistan, and so on. So when I sort of suggested look, there's a story here, no one's really told it, there was some something to be said about it. And I was, I was, basically I was commissioned, and I then began protests, it took several months, actually, like I'm talking with these groups. And communication is very difficult. Out there, like the you know, it's not like we just use dial up zoom and have a big chat on a roundtable chat not really is like, people are flipping SIM cards from one country to another, depending on what day it is, where the signal is better and standing on this hill or that hill, like it was a very, very problematic communication. But at the end of the day, I have been looking and covering observing Myanmar for a long, long time. And, and these people, the goodwill, and this sort of enthusiasm to bring some international media to their story was was profound in those communications, and it was decided, you know, I just have to get up there. And then we'll make decisions. So it's very different to going on assignment, like say, if you're reporting the Ukraine, you'd have all the security briefings and you'd have a team's security detail. In fact, I, I've done this type work. This is very much like, if you could just come here, we'll make it, we'll make it happen. And and they really did, like it was I it was, it was an extraordinary sort of opportunity for me to go there and do this report, but also, quite in, most importantly, it's the people of Qin state who have been the most receptive to the program themselves, because it was their story told through their people. And it's putting it out there on that international landscape. So yeah, I don't know if there was a particular it's not, there's no, like, there was no moment where I was like, we have to tell this story. It was just more like series of events unfolded. And it was just, you know, let's go. Nothing's literal. There's no like ABC ESGs, kind of like a to z and then land in the middle somewhere. And that's how this fell in many ways. And, you know, you've, I'm sure, maybe some people listening are probably going to look I've had, I've had 50 journalists contact me since going had to do it. I want to go on over. And I'd say, I'd say it's all it's all well and good. But this is something about the trust, and having that relationship and that understanding and the credit, and the credibility of having lived in Myanmar and knowing people that that I think made them easier. It made me made the chin sides feel at ease somewhat more. But I do hope that now, I do hope more media coverage can now be centered on that part of Myanmar as well. But you know, just broadly speaking, more coverage of Myanmar would be wonderful for the international community.

Host  23:50

Yeah, I definitely find from my experience in Myanmar, that if it's two things from my time there, it's um, one is it's a face to face society rather than than a virtual one. And when you're actually in front of someone, things happen. And the second is that it's not a very theoretical place. As far as like, well, I might do this or if we do this, how would that work? Which day works for you? It's kind of a face to face society where you're in front of someone and something happens right then and there and whatever plan you have up to that moment, just it takes its life in the moment and so many my experience is what then happens when you're standing right before someone is something you never could have planned on and you just have to get there. But yeah, trust is. Trust is absolutely massive. And that that goes from how much the military dictatorship over the years has broken down so many aspects of society that if you simply have someone that vouches for you and says yes, I know this guy, this is my brother, my sister, right? I trust them and then it gives you access into into all kinds of realms beyond any kind of profession or contract or anything else.

Matt Davis  24:56

No, absolutely. I was gonna say you know, in many places you need to apply for the permit. Being up, and I proposed this, you do that there's always you know, checks and balances and all on the way but like you said, Myanmar, it's, it's that genuine human engagement that I think drives decision making. And yeah, if you're lucky enough to experience it, and, and you're, you know, it's one of those things. That's why once you've been in Myanmar, you've been part of that community and that way of life, it's hard to walk away from it completely, because it's so wonderful. It's real.

Host  25:25

Yeah, I've told this story before my, at one point, we moved to a new place and Yangon and our after a week of being there, met our neighbor and talked to him in some Burmese and talked a bit about meditation and really became quite friendly with each other. And he just said, you know, okay, you're like my family now. So I'm going to take care of you. We kind of smiled like, yeah, that's, that's a nice thing to say, We're neighbors, but we're kind of like family and my God. I mean, like the the experiences we had, he was more than family. I mean, he did things that that that even blood for my wife, and I wouldn't necessarily take the level of risk and inconvenience that he had to help us out. And I mean, when the first week we were there, when he said, you're now like my family, he meant you're now like my family. And really it was I've told this story before, but I haven't haven't mentioned it in some time. So it's bringing back the memory to me. But it was one of one of my when the coup first happened, and like so many people that were outside of Myanmar, that it touched me so deeply, and was so shocked and felt so small and helpless and wondering what to do. And I ended up seeing he ended up sending me a picture of himself in downtown Yangon, just sitting on the street cross legged with a sign that said something like, you know, we deserve human rights or don't forget about our democracy. And my heart just went out. Because here's this person who's never been political, who's been the warmest, most loving, caring, non family I've ever been associated with who's done so much for me. And he's out there so vulnerable, just in anything that happened to him. And it just, even even now I get a little emotional thinking that because it just moved me so much and just made me realize whatever, whatever I can do I need to do, I need to find a way to do it. Because seeing this person that has made me part of his family, and is now so vulnerable and exposed. And there's these holding sign that no one cares about. What can I do from here. And that's, in some ways, that's what gave birth to this podcast and our nonprofit as well. Just wanting to find a way to to give back as corny as that sounds, I'm looking for another word, but just the feeling of how much was given to me. That things I never could have figured out. And however many things went wrong just by someone saying you're like family and really meaning we were like family from that point on and that, and I think when when we're looking at telling the story of Myanmar, that's why it's so important to have when when foreigners are engaged, whether they're engaged as journalists, or scholars or documentarians, or aid workers or development or diplomats, whatever else, it's so crucial that they have some kind of lived experience of the country and culture because when you just super I think Myanmar has long been a victim of superimposing other ideals or concepts or theories that worked in some other place by someone who just doesn't understand the shape of Myanmar society as a culture and the shape that it's taken on from the invisible shape and the way it's been affected from all those years of dictatorship and suppression and oppression by by the military. And that's, that's come back again. And so having people that, that understand that and not to say that they've lived through it, that they they get it that they've been anywhere near what the Myanmar people have been through, but that they have some lasting experience to understand and interact with it, rather than just applying superimpose models from somewhere else, I think is so important and trying to do justice and authenticity and bringing out those voices.

Matt Davis  28:55

That's right. And I'm lucky as a journalist, look, I'm based in Sydney, Australia, or work for this ABC Australian Broadcasting Corporation. My brief and my role at the program, like foreign correspondent is is you know, is to travel the world and report on the good, bad, and ugly, hopefully beautiful things as well, like it's a mixed bag of what we do and countries but Myanmar is a place with that. A bit of that lived experience and more and more, I guess it's this understanding of what you mentioned, that isolation that sort of the fact that countries cut off but then for so long, and then those seeing that change and growing movement. You know, I spent time with the Burmese hip hop artist in 2007 2008 of which recently, you know, politicians I thought he was a hip hop rapper he was executed in recent times I spent time with these people and not as a an overbearing force with just as a as a contemporary and I share things with them. I bought skateboards from Bangkok at one point and we got kids skateboarding 2007 some park on the fringes Have Yangon like, you know, it was there a lot of these amazing experiences but also in that time, the Myanmar community aside, I was also lucky to be friends still today with many long term foreigners who are who perhaps are married or like yourself work there on and off for over various periods wearing different hats. And I've, I've already had the hat I was able to have, I've often had that sorry, I do have that sounding board when I'm hearing something reported in the bigger media or something like and I'm, you know, the ability to go to ring someone who's you know, who really does understand that and check, is this right? Like is that that way, and they might actually know what you're looking at, that's just that classic over the top news way of looking at it, I think you should be better off going this way, talk to this person. So yeah, every step along the way, with me, as a journalist, as a filmmaker, I do do my checks and balances with people who not only know the country, and who have lived in the country, but they really love the country. So it's in the interests at heart are the people of Myanmar. And I think what we're seeing now, globally, and within the country, for the first time, is this unification of these both people, these different ethnic groups of these international communities, there is only one goal now, that is to remove the military, and restore democracy to the country of Myanmar. So that there's a I think there's the unified elements of this story is, is what's called gives me hope that things might change. And it may still take some time, particularly if they're not supported by the international community, but it feels like it's a different period here now, from when I've last lived in Myanmar, you know, under the military in 2007 2008. Yeah, it's, it's yeah, that's good.

Host  31:50

Yeah, that's right. And that actually leads into the next question, I wanted to ask because you personally have an extensive experience in Myanmar, not just during the transition period, like many people now who who are reporting on it and came during that time, but before the transition happened, when it was still a military dictatorship, and you also have experience in other conflict zones, going in places that are that are tense where there's conflict taking place. So what I'm wondering, is this recent trip that you went on to Qin state, if you were to contrast your previous experience in Myanmar, when it wasn't military, military dictatorship, as well as other experience in conflict zones? To, to to to compare your recent experience with, with this background? What What stands out? What What would you say is different from those two?

Matt Davis  32:42

Well, I guess the the main differences just is probably the, the geography of it all. I mean, I there having been in having mostly based my self in Yangon, even if this is under the regime, you know, you're living in a city in an urban life, it's very different, different experience. The Changing Landscape is extraordinary front that remote, it's very country, very regional, very rural. The main difference perhaps though, I'd say about my period from when I was living there last in between. And then now post coup, is that there was that, that just that overwhelming sense of outrage amongst the people of Qin state that, that they had had this sort of a better future. Probably not promised, but there was a bit of future on the horizon, there was a better, there was a way forward for Myanmar, it was growing all these young people. And again, it's probably important for the listener to know that, you know, these people fighting military are mostly those young ones who are on the streets protesting in the immediate aftermath of the coup. So we're not talking seasoned, experienced soldiers, or, you know, people who've done tours to Iraq or Afghanistan, and, you know, your American listeners when they could, you know, they understand that you got a military element to your culture over there. They don't, you know, there is the military. That's, that's there. But these are kids. So, I do wonder, you know, before, again, when that that period of democracy came in, there was this whole generation of young people across Myanmar, who saw opportunity, who saw well, they had Facebook and they had you know, that one of my characters in the program was the runner up in Myanmar Idol. I mean, this is a universal pop culture thing like they was they had all of that going on, plus all of the cultural, amazing cultural elements of indigenous to their country. So you had that rule, it was a melting pot of all these things. It was an exciting time. There's like whether it was the hip hoppers or as the you know, Myanmar Idol or as food and tourism and travel and students going, you know, lots of Burmese kids coming to Australia to study English or get degrees like it was a It was a happening time. So then to see that all ripped up and crushed overnight for a very short period, you know triggered something so by beat so then so all these people I mentioned and they weren't all farmers and rural types, many were but actually the majority of the people I met were young chin people a chin who, you know, they were students they were studying one was a DJ, you know, there was a DJ I used to throw parties in Yangon. He moved back to Tanjung, the town we've talked about before. And his house was burnt down. And he he wanted to pick up his weapon and have weapon to fight the military because they burned his house down and his turntables were burnt in that fire. And he was pissed off because he was like, I'm a DJ man, I've lost my identity, I'm going to war. There were other people I met like, football players, there was one player who was in the Myanmar under 21. And under 23 National squat, like the guy was here, he had a future playing professional football. He had traveled he would we sat around a fire one night with a with a little barbecue and a glass of whiskey. And he was showing me this is, this is me in Thailand, Thailand, this is me in Hong Kong, this is in Korea, like he was he had this amazing lifestyle like young law students, and so on. And so they sound like I don't think anyone shows to join a revolution, I don't think you do choose to join a revolution. You know, I'm, again, I'm talking to this from a very privileged position as a as a white Australian man. But as someone who's spent 2025 years of his life studying and engaging in these types of communities, is a common theme, like, no one wants war in their life. But for the for these young ones. I think the sacrifice is what they're prepared to make, to this time, make sure that this is the last time this this, this idea of a coup can never happen, that that military can somehow come into their lives and take it over. They don't they don't want that, you know, they wanted the freedom that they had just got. And in fact, they wanted more and more of it. And perhaps that was the fear by the military that despite having certain checks and balances in place to ensure that they retained some power within government at any given year, at any given moment. It seemed that the will of the people was pushing more and more to remove some of that from the military. And perhaps that's what triggered it was like, Oh, God, we don't have much of a chance anymore. You know, with all due respect Aung San su chi, and that elder generation, they fought that they fought this fight for, you know, 3040 years to get to this point. But I think what we're going to see coming out of this coup, based on the people I met is that this is a new generation who are going to take over now this is that that that elder democratic movement did a remarkable job in turning things around. But really, I think that the tides earn and this is a this is a young one younger people lead change in this country.

Host  38:12

I'm curious as well about your actual experience of being on the ground there. Because as you've mentioned, you've studied Myanmar for some time you've lived there. So you're familiar with the country and I'm sure you've been following and even reporting on this story since the coup broke. But when you're actually there, even if you're experiencing things that you know about and that that you've heard about, let alone those things that haven't been so reported and just physically being there seeing things with your own eyes and seeing interactions, what really stood out to you or surprised you from actually being physically on the ground that taught you things or showed you things above and beyond how you were able to follow it remotely?

Matt Davis  38:55

Absolutely, yeah, we totally are. There's nothing like being on the ground. Of course, you know, a lot of reporting covering the Myanmar story has been done remotely through, you know, smoking out footage or talking on phones and any sort of in that way they've been on the ground it was just extraordinary privilege to join those communities and and get in there deep to see you know, it's a cleansing and chin Chin's are very like, again, are very remote places, there's a lack of power. There's, there's a lack of food, you know, the local church, each village has three or four churches in it. That's where we have to go to charge our camera batteries to perhaps get a meal to do things like that. And despite this lack of, you know, general basic supplies, we will in that vary in the way we've talked about before we will always fed we're always provided with a place to sleep like there was this huge energy around someone coming here to tell the story to take our story to the world. So but you know, it was just it was it's again, it's surreal when I just left India You a few days earlier, and you're in a thriving city in the mountainous city nonetheless, but your houses power cars, all the things, all the mod cons, and then we're inside June state, and it's like sleeping on dirt floors again, and, you know, scrounging for a bit of power from the local church generator for a couple of hours for the batteries and, you know, driving 12 hours to do about 30 to 40 miles to get from A to B, because the roads had been a landslide. And there was no there was no, there was actually instead of having any hard machinery to remove that debris, it was hands, then, you know, it was 20 villages are out there with, you know, handmade hats, shovels, and hoes digging away these things. So it looks like it was a real was a real return. It was like going back in some ways going back in time, like there was this there was such a little infrastructure on the ground. But that but again, the Pete the people and the generosity and the resilience to just get on and get get keep living. It was almost like, in some ways, until we arrived in the frontline, or the hospital where, you know, we engaged with people who were in directly involved in the conflict. Like a lot of these people, their lives, it felt like not much changed. But again, it was it was it was that their children who actually had left the homes and to go and join these resistance groups. And that's that was the big thing that was it was a deep sadness amongst the elders and the young children. But also there's real, extraordinary sense of pride. Like I met one mother in the hospital whose son had lost his eyesight. And he'd been burns all over him from a landmine, he was making landmines and he had an accident and blew himself up. And he's with two of his other friends who tragically passed in that thing. And this is this is, in some ways indicative of the exam exam, an example of sort of the rudimentary weapons, they're using the men trying to do their own thing. Anyway, in that hospital, I talked to the mother and I said, are like, are you afraid of him? Or do you want him to come home? He says, no, no, no, like, I'm proud of him. My two other sons are all join these resistance groups, they have to fight night, you know, and it made me get a bit teary, and I love the chickens getting going like, oh, like, as a parent myself, to think that I would just be prepared to, you know, give away my children to this situation, was probably a real, you know, as a moment, but it really just did show just how committed how, how unified the people at Shin state were in this sort of struggle. And I think, again, I think you'd find similar phenomena playing out across the country now, particularly in those ethnic regions where, you know, the fighting is raging. And but these risk communities are really, they're really there. But, you know, it's always the thing that just to be on the ground and suddenly are now and then I just the motorbikes, and you get to the end of the day, but there was like a nice bowl of soup or place to put your head down. There's lovely people who just want to know. So thank you for coming. Thanks for coming. Like, you know, and yeah, it was a take that with a lot of there's a lot of responsibility that comes with that, but I hope, and I, and I think we did pretty well, in the way we presented that show. I mean, the people chin land had been ringing and sending messages, I got 5000, Facebook requests, requests overnight that night, I went to from people, and since then I've never met, which makes me and the team behind that. Happy because, yeah, at the end of the day is journalism and your colleagues in the world of media out here. But you know, if the film lands for the people that it's about, and they're happy, then that's that's the job well done.

Host  43:47

Yeah, right. And I think there was just a sense just from being yet another person online, who saw something come up that oh, this is this is not just a local account doing this, or someone doing this on their own. This is actually a noted platform that's deciding to, and it's not just covering it remotely, but it's actually sending someone sending and sending the staff member to go and report on it with video and audio and translation. And then it's going to be on their big platform. It was kind of this feeling of like, Oh, we're being seen where the story is getting out there by someone somewhere. And there's just been this sense for those that that are Myanmar care about Myanmar, that you've alluded to already of just how hard it is to get this story in this information out there and have it break through and so I guess I'm wondering with how with your background, not just being familiar with Myanmar, but also your profession being a reporter. First, why do you think it's been so extremely hard to get out a story that has everything you would want a story in it from the drama, the history of the conflict, heroism, sacrifice, more stories than one would want of the devastation that's going on? It's been so and yet it's been And so incredibly hard to break through and have people care. And then the other part of that question how to do that, and I'm sure this is something you're thinking of yourself. So you don't necessarily have all the answers. But what given that so few have broken through on a wider platform? Do you have any thoughts of how how these stories can come out and breakthrough more so that they're not just flashes in the pan? Or they're not just just just brief, little snippets or, or brief, brief snapshots, but something that is actually educating people bringing them in depth and having them going beyond just the surface headline?

Matt Davis  45:42

Yeah, it's, it's, you know, there are times in this process where I, I hate it. I hate to admit it, but not really. But, you know, I struggle with sleep sometimes from turning, tossing and turning going home to get this thing. How do we, how do we get it? How do we get it out? Like, yeah, it's, especially when I've, you know, having again, in this extremely amazing period where I was there, and I met people, and I've seen them, and I'm thinking, How do I get that story out about that doctor, or that soldier or that last? You know, that mother in law, you've got all these things? And it's, I have, you know, no conflict is everything. They're all horrible, right? And, you know, I have beautiful friends in the Ukraine who have suffered a similar fate, you know, the young people, the futures, you know, ripped off by once again, another totalitarian, egomaniac type character, Putin, I mean, online, I mean, a world in 2022, you think, what do we need as blokes in power for anymore? Like, let's just get rid of them? Right? Surely the reckoning is coming with you. One day, we'll wake up and we'll have young women running the planet and things will be much, much better place. But this actual conundrum of getting Myanmar coverage? I mean, I'm talking to you in the United States. I think in Australia, it's even for me, it's even more perplexing, because we're a regional democracy. And Myanmar has long looked to places like India or Thailand, but in particular, Australia, was this like, sort of Beacon of human rights? Democracy? I'm not saying that Australia gets it. All right, absolutely not. We've got plenty of things we can nitpick on, but it's a broad brush. It's a, you know, it's an example in our region. And and it's a place we engage in whether it's Indonesia, Asiana and so on. So for us, there's a there's a collective of journalists who have covered these stories over the years and, and it's it just, you know, you just have to slap yourself in the face sometimes going like, why won't they pick this story up, you know, this happened with their injury crisis as well. And it almost feels like it's only when it's at its peak, the worst of the worst moment, you'll get the immediate coverage where I feel like this story, like you said, in the islands got everything you could want, you've got an evil dictator, you've got secret financial institutions, got Russian guns apply that Chinese border, and like it's, there's so much so many elements to this story, that should be enough to satisfy some demand. But sadly, you know, if we're using Ukraine as an example, you know, they're Caucasian. There's us in Wales, you know, in the UK and Europe, and it's the center of Western Europe, or, you know, the fringe of Western Europe. So there's a threat to the world we know perhaps, is something that gets that attention. Some journalists spoke to the other day saying, Oh, the Ukraine has really become a forgotten war. And I was like, man, I've got a film out this week called Myanmar's forgotten war like a what do you have? What do you mean, I'm not saying and again, with all due respect, especially to my Ukrainian friends, I'm not saying that it's better or worse, going? At least the media is like, every day is covering Ukraine, right? Like there's something almost every day,

Host  48:59

I'm sure you know, as well that the Forgotten War was what they call the Burma front and World War Two.

Matt Davis  49:04

The exactly so so history repeats itself, right? And here we are, this is happening again. And I'm sure nada, the student uprising there would have an insane phenomenon. You know, there's a moment where it's this huge thing. People are killed on the streets. The news covers that. And then it moves on. What's probably different now what not what's probably what is different now is that the Myanmar people on the ground are actually still able to get material out obviously, even though the internet is limited. And there are very good Myanmar media outlets. Yeah, of course, your podcast but you know, Myanmar run just like Myanmar now and the Irrawaddy and DVB and so on. And a lot of those groups actions are based here in Australia and a lot of journalists got protection visas. And out of Melbourne. There's a there's a gathering of Burmese journalists working in any given moment publishing and so on. So there is a little more opportunities have been say a decade or two ago for these stories to come out. So you can find it if you want to know about Myanmar but sadly the people that want to know about Myanmar kind of already know that Myanmar right and people like you and I are listening to podcasts like desperate for information, but then breaking into the mainstream if you will, or the broader news media market is a desperate it's a very difficult proposition. I live here in Sydney Australia, I live down near the beach I'm a when when I'm not covering Warren Piece I'm usually surfing I one of my greatest measuring yardsticks is when I'm in that community. And people who generally speaking might not be note might not even know where Myanmar is definitely don't know where Chin State is a totally aware of what's happening in the Ukraine or China, Taiwan, Israel, Palestine, because those headlines are everywhere. Or, you know, Trump in the wall or whatever it is, there's always those big alpha headlines that dominate. But on this one, I did get, just, you know, a little quite happy about this. And a lot of people were like, Man, I saw your film. Shit, I did not know about that. And that was so I was crying dude, like, wow, I had no idea. And I felt I don't, I'm not stupid. But I felt I couldn't believe I didn't. I knew such a little and I was like it really drove home just how difficult people will if it's good journalism, and the stories like that are heartfelt and character focused and less reporter more like what's the person on the ground where they got to say that their average surfing dude or surfing girl here in Australia is going wow. And maybe just maybe that's enough to do that little gearshift that it's on their radar now, right? It might just be it might not be what they live for every day like your I read the headlines. What's happening now I will charge zero saying let's see that it is but it might be enough for them to go like this phase, Myanmar minutes really no good, like people going? What could I do? And it stopped us? I don't know, what do you do, I might ring an NGO help them out. But the reality is, it's baby steps. But we have a very serious revolutionary war going on here in our backyard in Australia. So I think that needs to be done that needs to be kept there front and center, the United States, Europe, these are all countries that before this coup were were heavily invested in Myanmar and lots of great things, whether it was cultural development or NGO help or, or business, you know, and we still have this is a this is an issue we have to consider with sanctions and, you know, oil and gas, Chevron and companies like that it was still dancing around the fire of the dictatorship and need to get what they need. And, you know, I think that's, that's those storylines are also something we need to keep looking at, how are we? How are our governments and companies engaging with this with this story, and I don't know exactly what it is. But there is something we're working on about that type of thing, I believe, probably for next year. Because yeah, these things take a while to get to get across the line. But you know, there was an interesting, interesting, interesting interview, but Australian un expert who had done a lot of time in Myanmar, and sort of unpack the military's financial companies in my last documentary of what's happening in Myanmar. And he said, it's a very simple thing to finish this coup or finish this sort of war, to cut off the guns, cut off the money and cut off the impunity. So if you can't have their arms up their mind of impunity, they've got nothing left, they'll fall because the people don't want them anymore. They don't want that. So, you know, it's it is on the international community to actually help this situation, conclude or resolve itself, you know, hopefully, sooner than later.

Host  53:57

Yeah, right. And I think another analogy I'd give them baby steps would be momentum and that there's this there's this possibility in this reality of momentum and caring about Myanmar and that every person has, wherever they are has the ability to add to that momentum. However small listening to this podcast is one way listening. And then sharing is one way to add to the momentum watching your documentary, that same thing and above and beyond that one can donate or advocate to talk to local newspapers or members of parliament or Congress or whoever. And all of those things matter. Because I think in the past, Myanmar has the it's been these flashes in the pan that that people don't really understand completely, and then things pass. And I think one of the military strategies has always been knowing having, I think one thing you have to give him credit for his understanding that the world has a short attention span and trusting that whatever atrocity they can do in the moment, if they just kind of let the water settle, then people will move on to the next thing and they can They can move ahead with impunity. But, you know, that hasn't exactly happened this way. And at this time in this revolution, and on that note, when we're looking at trying to understand Myanmar and trying to, to understand the complexity of the history, and the Bomar the different ethnic groups, the role, the military role of Buddhism, etc, the role of the current revolution as well, there's so many things packed in there. It's not, it's certainly not reasonable that one person would would be expected to, to have an understanding and know all this. That's why I enjoy these podcast conversations so much, we get to go in different areas of where that expertise is. But just to narrow that down a little bit and look at like, the way you're a journalist who is reported on Myanmar. And so there by doing so you've I'm sure you've also read a number of articles and documentaries on Myanmar. You've talked to other journalists. And so one of the things I'm curious about is, generally speaking, what can you point to in terms of how Western media or foreign media is not getting things about Myanmar, either in general, or at this current time in this current revolution, with your knowledge with your experience with your reporting and contacts there? What what kinds of trends do you see occurring in media that one can say or can be consistent or a pattern in some way? That you, that speaks to you of like, oh, this, this is something this is something they're continuing to miss, or this is something we're continuing not to understand.

Matt Davis  56:28

I think, I think one of the probably the standard reporting on Myanmar, particularly those without, with much without much, you know, in depth knowledge of the thing is often to focus on the NLD, Aung San su chi and, and that storyline, because that's been the big, you know, the good versus evil narrative we've seen with Myanmar for decades. Yeah, the military versus the lady. And that's a very, that's a very relevant storyline as well. But again, to what I, what I've been talking about here, and going back to what my film sort of, focuses on, and I do know, there's another film of a similar mountainous, forgotten revolution circling around moment channel for Evan Williams is Australian journalist as well, he's out there. So there seems to be you mentioned momentum. It's been a month since the coup there is there has been a shift back to a little bit, particularly sadly, tragically, because the execution of those for democracy activists a month ago, I think that brought the spotlight back because, you know, people globally, even regionally, you know, like, ACR members of Asia and Cambodia, Malaysia, people that never would normally say anything, because it's sort of a wet fish as a as an as an as a, what's the word, just the group, like as a, as a grouping of nations, they don't particularly talk down on people. But there was some reaction was like, Hey, that's not good. You know, and, and some, you know, despite the tragedy, some would say it's a bit of a knee jerk reaction, because they're actually under pressure now, like, there's also so much going on in the country that they just thought they might execute a form for these democracy activists, and people would somehow be cowed into, you know, giving up their fights or their resistance, I think it's probably had the opposite effect. In fact, every time there's another horrific atrocities documented in the Myanmar, in the, through social media, or something, I think there's a real sense. And we talked about this in my film with some of the senior generals in the national army, it's like, they think they're gonna crush people's spirit that no, they're just bringing more people together like people like, you're going to do that to a woman or a child or an innocent elderly mammal. I'm sorry, I can't support you. I'm going to support those PDF fighters and so on. Long way around what I'm getting at is I think the storyline now has moved to focus much more on these these young people because I guess six months ago last time, I did a story of documentary type program on this on the story, even though these young these youth, if you will, had picked up weapons they were rudimentary. We've talked about before the to me they're like single shot, single caliber sort of single barrel hunting rifles from from 100 years ago, some of them were, there was no there's a real sense that none of this would actually have a chance of defeating this heavily armed Russian supplied military base with helicopters and jet fighters and submarines and, you know, rather ruthlessly reputation, but actually, this time now and we've just recently approached the storyline, things have changed. They've managed these young groups across the country now it's a war on all fronts. While not all identify with the shadow government and national unity government, that energy is growing in its sort of presence. globally. It's a it's a it's engaging in Washington, DC it's engaging in Europe. They've recently opened an embassy here in Australia and Canberra now Capital One which I'll be talking at shortly. Similar thing about your experience on the ground like curious. I saw the opening of an energy defense outpost inside camp Victoria when I was there with the chin national army. What we're seeing I think is a new period. And this is where the reporting may evolve in may shift. It's like, okay, there's a bit more that the moment is real, you know that there's, you mentioned momentum before, there is a sense of momentum. Now. The young ones are sort of seeing as an endgame, there's, we're seeing military defectors in the 1000s, if not 10s of 1000s, depending on who you get your information from. So this sort of, while, sadly, there is this horrific war of attrition and unfolding across the country. In terms of reporting, there's actually a moment of I think, a crush, maybe a crescendo or cattle a changing landscape, where we've gone from the people being the underdog, who were used to being crushed and suppressed, to potentially seeing the tatmadaw or Myanmar military on a much more defensive strategy, sort of just holding, holding space where they can and try their best to not get, you know, caught out in the fields like my chin when my young fighters who are surrounded the military up there, they say, it's like Wolf hunting, you know, we know our land, we know the mountains, we know how to get we know how, so if they come out of here, we just follow them, and we'll walk through them. So I think, I guess I'm going back to the journalistic side of it, it's if it's what's new, you know, sadly, what's good the news, right? So that someone's always looking for what's new. What's happening now is it bounced at different time. These are these are stories and I think you can look at big weaponry in the Ukraine and Syria and things it's very, feels very distant and almost unhuman because the weaponry is so advanced. And so when you see these young people in whether it's my film or channel for film, it's so like, what is happening here like wow, like they they're going to taking on this military. And I think that's a hook that should be played to more by the by the media to sort of go look at these young people. And look what they're up against. But you know, what they're actually doing right. And everyone I met on that journey was adamant that this, they were going to win, like there was no, they've people had these moments before in history, but I don't know, it seemed it seemed different, like there was something going on. And that might have been, that's everyone. That's the general sweet car from the chinampas said, This is not it's not just the resistance fighters. This is everyone out here in Shan State. And again, I think this is across the country. It's the women in the village cooking food to the soldiers. It's the school kids collecting firewood, it's the you know, it's it's everyone, everyone's involved. And this, it's great stories there to be told important stories to be told and their human stories again, you tap the human narrative, it's about the human side of it all. People see these shows, and they get like, Okay, I need to follow this, I need to know more about this place. And like you say, share it shared with them share the podcast, pass it around. You know, hope I'm hoping very much that they there's more we've we've had a recent change in government here in Australia. And after several years, or since the coup, effectively radio silence from our government, the new government has been much more on the front foot talking about Myanmar, in the in the press conferences, talking about the human rights abuses, talking about the war. Talking about Australia's need to do more. So we keep bringing it back to that word momentum. Perhaps after 18 months of almost zero coverage and rural interests, maybe we're turning a corner and we will get more of what it needs. That is the international spotlight.

Host  1:04:03

Right. And I think that when one is talking again, about how this story has it all, not only does it have all the human elements of the drama unfolding within the country, but it also has, in at least to my mind, a rather unprecedented story of a country that has been under a ruthless military dictatorship that all the countries around the world that in theory, support some version of democracy and human rights and everything else have basically stood at the sidelines and done almost nothing and with almost no background training materials, anything they have, they have defied so many of these so called experts who at the beginning and have their own predictions, and are are not just holding their own but are actually predicting an end to this and that. I don't hear too many people these days that are talking about the advantages the military holds there. Certainly a fierce force that And we could see some very bloody days ahead. And if anything, I've had people talk to me connected to the resistance that are saying, Look, we think it's an inevitability that we're going to win. The question is, do we do we drag this out into something messy and bloody day after day that takes forever? Or do we get some support where we can just come down with, with a despite a decisive blow that that, that saves a lot of that preserves some sense of humanity in the end, but then beyond that story, you have the story of what happens next. And of course, there's no telling what happens after a revolution I've been doing some reading of late of the French Revolution and just reminding myself about the messiness that happened in in all the years and decades that followed, but it does have to be said that there is as you and so many people have commented on there is a sea change here and I was even talking to a friend who's connected to the Korean diaspora community and very, very connected to it to people on the ground to top leadership to people in current state, kind of taking the temperature and all those different places and he was relaying to me it's quite an interesting the older Korean leaders still have this this pretty strong nationalist tendency nationalist meaning that they want their own their own state or territory they they're not looking for compromise or cooperation or collaboration with with with other ethnicities and it's especially not the Bomar if they can, if they can help it, you know, trying to be realistic, but the younger generation, the younger cringe generation is saying is not like that. And he said he's also been making inroads with the chin community. Same thing. He's talked with the young chins and I've certainly everyone I've talked to kitchen and Bomar and and others have fit that similar mold in the sense that they are they're voicing a desire to want to have a more inclusive community. And people I knew that that were never quite Bomar Bomar Buddhist nationalists, but they did have concerns about the survival of Buddhism in the country. And if they had to juxtapose a free society that was fair and equitable, and a society that propagated and preserve the Buddhist teachings, they would very likely choose the second one, actually, they would I know that from conversations before the coup, and in talking to those people after they've that to a person, they've all shifted, and they all realize that they they don't need artificial and, and, and violent support from a dictatorship to preserve a faith that is about inner peace, and, and coming out of defilements and attachments and, and negativities. And so there is this extraordinary sea change among the young people that, you know, if these two things can be accomplished, and I know that's a big if but actually, whether or not they're accomplished isn't really the point, the point is that there is a very real potentiality of both these things have a pathway for both these things to happen where the where a Russian back professional military cannot win against a what, what initially was this ragtag bunch of students and, and young DJs and all other kinds of people that that formed a resist them that that they could come out victorious, and that they have a volition to want to create on their own with no support from these countries that supposedly care so much about it, and equitable and progressive and fairer society. And I'm not, I don't mean to say this, I know, as I'm saying this, I'm hearing myself, I don't mean to be sounding naive or idealistic or head in the clouds, but the fact that they want to, and they are trying, and there is a pathway that they could in Southeast Asia, I mean, this is rewriting every history we know of the region and of of, of how political systems develop. And the fact that this could happen this, this is an unbelievable story for our time, especially when democracy is being threatened in places like my country and others, that this is a place where the people are wanting to proclaim their own democracy. And so I think that not to tell this story in in this naive, idealistic way that that, of course, there'll be Kumbaya and everything will be okay. But the fact that this could happen in his trying to happen, this is an unbelievable story for our age to be wanting to explore until in the words of those people on the front lines, those young people that you've mentioned, that are doing so much.

Matt Davis  1:09:26

I couldn't agree more on what the year ago, I mentioned the FBI a year ago, we put together a documentary, hashtag what's happening in Myanmar on YouTube. Right now, ABC News, it was all about military and looking at the power structure that they have and where they get the money from and so on. Because we couldn't travel. What we could do was talk to experts, you know, international observers, based here in Australia and some of these Burmese people who have left and now here on protection visas, almost nobody in that Film? Would I ask them you know is can they win this war is this thing, I don't think a single person said they had any chance whatsoever. In fact, they just feared for what would happen. And some of those fears are true. Like, there's been some horrible violence on both sides. But it is a war, let's just remember that. But what we've seen this shift, and again, anecdotally, but also like academically, this there is this sense of like, oh, the tide has turned now. And there's this real sense of opportunity to defeat this professional army, Russian civil arms, etc. Now, the only, like you said, no one knows what comes next, right with these revolutions. And I've met all these young people who were not formally military inclined, they've probably never they've definitely never killed people before. But now that that's their, sort of their their remit, they're out there to win this war. So you do have to, and not all of them are that old, right? 1819 2021. So my editor, Peter Donahue, one extraordinarily talented editor, here with me the OVC, he, he's his big concern was looking at them, he often will take us take a moment to breathe and goes, oh, what happens though, all these kids that you know, they've all become radicalized, or this sort of, you know, this violence has, has now crept into them. And there's a so that there's definitely not a it's definitely something to be considered about, you know, like, it probably won't be like, come by ours at Florence on so there's gonna be some people that are a bit like on the edge now, when they're going to have to be brought in line. What we're, what might be this, the key to this is actually that unity, to look towards a more unified country, that these young people do have. So again, I think this is the generation who sort of knew that democracy, they hadn't been divided into their ethnic groups as much and their religious lines, because you know, they'd all been at school or uni together, and then how will these new things are on Facebook? But you know, how do you hate someone when you like their posts, like just because they're a Christian or Buddhist? Let's not forget the Rohingya crisis 2017, we saw the more or less the entire country support the eviction of these people. But I reckon if you look at some of the narrative that was coming through the younger NGO, the younger members of civil society, the voices that were coming through, they were actually studying to sort of turn that narrative around, and particularly just before the coup was like, no, no, no, we have to actually be we have to be unified. And that's probably the way this is going to work that the Bomar people now themselves have experienced the ruthlessness of the military in this period where there people have been killed. It normally wasn't that way. They were normally fighting these distant wars up in the mountains of these ethnic groups, right, and the military and the narrative that they were terrorists lay or anti Buddhist, or Muslims or whatever, whatever line, they chose to suit their purposes at the time, again, with the advancement of social media and interconnectivity amongst young people, I think a lot of that sort of dominant propaganda is becomes much more relevant. I'm sure. You mentioned just before the elder community members have that mindset, but that's, you know, it's the old thing can't teach an old dog new tricks, but the young people aren't part of that are much less. So you know, of course, there are radical elements in all of our communities. We've got, we've got radical elements here. Absolutely. But they are fringe and they certainly get a bit too much airtime. I think it's probably the same in America that a lot of dominant airspace, which sucks that away from the fact that most people in the United States actually just want to have a pretty good, peaceful, respectful lifestyle. That doesn't seek to divide the races or the along racial lines or religious lines and so on. I think Myanmar is the same, particularly amongst these young people. Again, I'm only talking I admit, to the people I spoke with they want they wanted is a federal democracy they want they want Chin State to be a representative entity in some type of Parliament structure. They want to Chin State current state Australia, like America, we're made up of states, and how to say no looking from afar, America is about as diverse as Myanmar in many ways, right? There's a lot of like, depending on where you're from in America, there's a whole different way of looking at what what America is Myanmar junk, we're all saying the same thing. Oh, like? Well, we would like our to be represented so we could speak to our interests, you know, and sure the Crown has shown if they all were to come together in some type of democracy like that. That's not happened in Myanmar, these ethnic voices have had been promised a lot, but have always been somewhat and these promises have always been under delivered or, if at all, maybe, you know, many times I think teams have been put up there. That's why Myanmar has been a civil war and people forget that they've been it's been the tatmadaw the Myanmar military has never actually won a war. They've been constantly fighting, as they've been constantly fighting ethnic groups on borders and ceasefires and stalemates, but never actually want. No one's ever come to the table and said, Okay, we're with you. Yeah. But this time, this, at least from what I've gathered, talking with the Foreign Minister of National Union, government and others is that what they want to do is bring everyone together. And there is one common goal. And if they keep it fairly simple, they might actually succeed. The goal is to get rid of the military, put them back in the barracks, you know, so on a dead note, democratic company, you still need a military, you need an armed defense force short, well, that's another whole discourse we will talk about in another podcast, but there is a, there'll be there'll be a military, that will be true, but they shouldn't be the ones legislating for you know, whether it's about the education system, or its nursing homes or infrastructure. I believe that to the Democratic political process. And I think that's what the energy is trying to keep people focused on. It's like, it's a simple goal at the moment. And as senior members of the chin resistance forces, we're saying the same thing, the first thing we got to do is just to feed these guys, they need to go away, right? And then we all come together, and how this looks not sure. And it could be a little bit messy there for a bit. But again, big story, we should be following it. And I personally, we'll be where does it go? Once something like that is occurred, and then you do is done the right thing? I mean, a lot of people, there's a lot of criticisms from people from all corners. But look, they've got they've got young politicians, they've got ethnic ethnic groups represented. I'm not saying it's the bill in the end, or but again, relaying the messaging from the Chin State, it's a better option than the when the current option, right there was they're just like, well, what are you going to do? You got the military, on one hand, we've got this other group who are working behind the scenes globally to sort of try to bring together some unified sets of opposition. And that was enough for some of the senior general types in the national army. And to be like, well, we're going to back that. Okay. And if everyone gets behind that, maybe, just maybe it could work. And the question again, is, how long will this take? Because it seems like there is no there is no going back. Like there is no going back. I am dying to be with the doctor and my films. He says like this is the final battle. Yeah, like, we will never we will not go back. He was a surgeon, right? A 30 year old surgeon and Yangon, like the guy had everything ahead of him, like I'm a journalist, and he's a surgeon, I was looking at how brighter you are. He's stuck in his town and no medicine, no, no equipment, basically working with him and his wife and another nurse or to to fix all the soldiers and the IDPs. But he was like, this is the final battle. We need weapons. We need, you know, we need supplies, and we need money. So if we look and act as an ABC journalist, public brokers I have to be, you know, journalistically objective. But no one's questioning, no one's questioning the supply of weapons to the Ukrainian Defense Force. No one's questioning the supply of finances for Ukraine. In fact, it's it's billions, if not trillions of dollars, that's, that's floating there on the regular plus most highly advanced weapons on the planet. So is there is there a reason we those conversations can't be had about Myanmar? I'm not sure. I think it's a question that we should ask of our governments and being prepared to, to demand that they do more. And, you know, it's it is it's on multiple fronts, it's humanitarian, its diplomatic, it includes sanctions, and it's potentially with real weaponry to support these, these people. And then again, this wouldn't be the first time of Western governments, if you will, has supplied to groups who, you know, they speak for democracy, democratic principles, well, that's what these people are fighting for. So people Myanmar kind of like, put your money where your mouth is, like, come and help us like why I forgotten. You know, it's it says it, they look to the world and they look to the Ukraine, they look to all these other things and go What about us? And instead of like, you know, as again, as you said, in the film, their fundraising for these things, at this point, you know, they're playing concerts over zoom to the change media around the world to like, fundraise money to supply food and medicines to refugees and IDPs or maybe some of that money ends up in weapons or so on. But it's like, it's pretty ad hoc. If you think about it, it's like, you know, is it a global is a global problem. And it's been solving a really local level, to through you know, an art exhibitions in London or in Los Angeles or in Sydney here, like little gatherings or little concerts like church meetings, like, it's sort of like that. Whereas when we look to, again, Europe, it's, it's the global NATO led resistance to what is also an extremely clear and present danger to the world to Putin and his allies. But yeah, I think that that's one of the lead line sort of themes with our documentary leaves with it's like, it's not a matter of if it really is a matter of when, and the longer it goes, the more people will die, the more people suffer. And that's not in the interest of anybody. Yeah, not in not in the modern world, that there's really no reason for that. And I think my Commentator From the chimp, human rights organization, so like, lean, he just says, He, like he points to the democratic world and just says, Get your act together. And he actually broke the fourth wall, and, you know, like filmmaking, like, you know, you sort of do your interview, they're not looking down the camera, they're looking to the, to the interview that report or whoever, but he did. Did definitely, he definitely changes and looks down the barrel, which is kind of cool. Yeah, I was like, you know, I was like, Yeah,

Host  1:21:02

that's great. I'm glad you brought up the doctor because I wanted to introduce that clip. And you gave some background of him just here, but let's just take a moment and hear him in his own words.

1:21:15

Since my childhood, it was my dream to become a doctor.

1:21:22

Like so many professionals, surgeon a most dots amongst Korea, was turned upside down after the coup. He and his wife Rebecca, and nurse joined the nationwide civil disobedience movement, the CDM. It's a general strike aimed at bringing the government to its knees.

1:21:42

At that time, the military have a statement. All doctors who do CDM they can arrest us. I don't want to walk under the military government.

1:21:58

Leaving the city of Yangon they returned to Qin LAN and treated patients in secret clinics. When the regime attack their home of tantalum, they fled here and took over this abandoned hospital to treat civilians and resistance fighters.

1:22:15

This is more to injury yesterday in tentang. There was a battle he's also CDFW

1:22:24

the hoping to go back to join his battalion.

1:22:27

Yeah, he's so eager to go like

1:22:33

this young fighters eyes were damaged in a blast. His body peppered with sulfur. But even his mother is keen for him to return to battle. Are you proud of him fighting in the CDF?

1:22:50

Pile on the Truman to have in mind the mass bomb content that can Kinesia can coilette came up a cannula Monica Hola. Mi nombre Tomlins Hilaire.

1:23:08

Are you Are you afraid fighting this war?

Matt Davis  1:23:13

De la? No. In fact, caught by the Burmese soldier what happens to them?

1:23:21

They broke their arms. They broke their legs. And in recent battles, they don't descend they don't even cut through. Cut off the head. They just tortured with lots of incisions in the neck. Oh,

1:23:49

Amos and Rebecca were lucky to escape timeline with their lives. Was he born here? Yes. They rely heavily on each other to keep this hospital functioning. How does your wife think about this? The revolution?

1:24:08

Yeah, my wife. My wife is the best supporter for me. Yeah. When we arrived here, we ran from the tentang

1:24:18

she's still pregnant then we have a baby. Sometimes Sometimes I want to go to the place where it is safe. But yeah, this is the final fight. We have to do our best.

Host  1:24:56

And that was a clip we just heard of you visiting the doctor Hearing him, in his own words, describe what he was doing, why he was doing it. We have the footage from the film and hearing his own voice of of who this doctor has explained himself. But what can you tell us beyond what the camera was able to pick up spending time with him? Why you want to include him the impression you made on him? What he how he might stand for as a greater archetype to the the gym, people you spend time with? What can you tell us beyond what we saw in that clip and what we heard from him?

Matt Davis  1:25:30

Absolutely, so Dr. Amos, I think is a really important character in the film, because he shows he highlights that it's not just the fight, that's, that's ongoing. It's not just armed resistance, you know, he's a member of the civil disobedience movement, which I'm sure many of your listeners will know, the CDM. So that's, that's the ongoing strike the general strike that, you know, was launched amongst public servants in the wake of the coup, you know, the, if the military is now suddenly the government, or working in any public institution means you work for the military, and people like Dr. Amos, and he's absolutely incredible wife, Rebecca, the nurse was such people. So they joined that, that that's they're part of this resistance. Again, you know, it's multifaceted here. And the doctor and Amos and Rebecca, they, they left, they initially joined the protests there and Yangon. And as things heated up, they return back to Taunton. In Chin State, the town, a lot of our documentary is focused around. And actually, they were, interestingly, the story on the in the online article attached to the film goes a bit deeper into their backstory, they had returned to the tagline, as I said, and we're operating and providing surgery to resistance fighters and resistance fighters and others. But in more like clandestine type, search, you know, operating spaces, they weren't able to work in the hospital, if they were anyone, whenever on either they'd be arrested and put in prison, I mean, go figure, it's an extraordinary time when your doctors, nurses, teachers, and so on, are arrested and tortured, and so on. And that's that's just, it's quite an exceptional concept to consider, etc, in the robot extraordinary concept to consider. And so yeah, he they effectively become enemies of the state. And we're doing these years, but I think he says like my role as a doctor, like, I've always wanted to be a doctor. And my whole thing was to help people. And that's, I think you'd meet any doctor or nurse in the world. That's, that's their thinking, right? Or teacher wants to teach, they want to educate, they want to, you know, there's these fundamental, wonderful elements. And I think now the pandemic here in Australia really highlighted just how much doctors, nurses, teachers are the backbone of our society, in many ways, you know, you can lose your investment bankers tomorrow, and it wouldn't the world would probably be a better place. But we had this guy, we had this story unfold where he was that just finished operating. And this is in the the beginnings of the attack on tantalum. And they came out of the operating theater and the town was on fire, not far from where they were, there was, there was the buildings on fire, and they could hear gunshots. And they were like, All right, well, geez, what do we do now? They had an 18 month old son, an infant across the other side of town. So through past where the battle was unfolding, so the battle was the CDF and the CNA were fighting, you know, gun fighting with military. And meanwhile, artillery fire and buildings catching on fire and so on. So it's just painting the picture. It's pretty intense landscape that they're confronted with. Their son is on the other side of town with the grandparents. So what do you do? They had a bicycle between them. And Rebecca was six months pregnant. They made a decision that they had to get back to their son, and then they would, you know, get the family together and slay like everybody else was, but before they could do that, they had to ride that bicycle. Amos riding Rebecca on the back. Think sort of Ricky burnings bicycle. They rode through that firefight and turned a corner and there were two Burmese soldiers. One with his gun drawn at them. Amos said, you know, I just thought we were dead. As that thought came through his mind. That soldier was dropped to the ground he'd been he'd been shot in the head by seeing a sniper. And they were like, on, shoot, like, what what's happening here? Did the other Burmese soldier I think in shock, or perhaps, maybe recognizing how pregnant Rebecca was, and you know, maybe, maybe even a touch of humanity there, just looked at them and waved and said, Go now Go, go go. And I wrote to their lives through that, through that battle, and heard another gunshot looked back. And that soldier was also shot dead by another chin National Army soldier. So pretty radical thing and tell me if there's not a film in that somewhere, but he ends up there not being to their family home, they got the reunited with the little son. And, you know, subsequently left the town. And so again, actually, as a surgeon, his skill set is pretty unique for that part of the world. And he was approached by the CDF and members of CNA to take over and then what it was an abandoned hospital. The diligent to care, and it's where I meet the doctor, we come together, so they arrived at this hospital. Again, Rebecca heavily pregnant, two of her fellow nurse friends join them. And so between the three nurses and the doctor, they said about opening up this hospital now, it's the only hospital in this district, I think it's service something like 56 villages. It's this, this the area is, I mean, I can't give you a geographic reference, but it's just a ginormous region, right. And so every every soldier in resistance, every local person, all the IDPs, the refugees, everyone, and anyone who has a problem is coming to that hospital. And again, when they took that over, there was an abandoned building, there was not a there wasn't a knife, there wasn't a set of aspirin, there was nothing. So it's quite extraordinary. I think, what they've been able to achieve that through donations coming in from abroad, financing, the purchase of equipment, and medical supplies, most of which is coming across from the Indian border through the network of doctors and nurses and transport operators. There is a real, there's a hard border, there's a hard line across now, if you had further south into Qin state, like with a tap Medora, there's no you know, you're risking your life to drive through that region and to go and buy medicine and medicine in your car, they assume you're part of the resistance in you know, I imagine you're taking a prison or executed on the spot. So there's been, they've been unable to get supplies within the country itself. So a lot of this is coming across the same border that we came across to visit these people. But today, you know, a year on this hospital, and not even a year on, but it was about six months after that whole story I told you had unfolded that they are now operating What is it pretty amazing, you know, still woefully under resourced, and you know, and overly work, you know, they're working somewhat 24/7 Or as required, you know? So, look, he, he's an extraordinary family. The good news, of course, is they've delivered 21 babies in that hospital and the time they've been there of which 20 You know, one of them was their newborn, the ones you know, so they got through the battle, they made it to the hospital, and actually he delivered his own child in that hospital. So it's, you know, it's kind of a nice little moment, I had to share with him. Late night we had a chat about all that. But look, he's just, he is the same thinking. He's like, you know, we this is what we're doing, you know, we don't have the guys don't have the guys and gals don't have the guns, we don't have the work or we don't have the medical equipment or the medicines. But with what we've got, we have to keep going we have to keep going because we have to win. There is no turning back. He described the type of torture that the soldiers if they're caught the resistance was what they'll go through. He described the the trauma of being there like he's basically his family live in the United States. There's a large tune community in Indianapolis actually, that's where the hub of the Ching diaspora and he's mother's a he he's a very functional upwardly mobile surgeon and a nurse right so they had passports they could travel the world but he's chosen to give that up and live in that in that village. Being the main doctor to to basically the only surgeon so if anything goes wrong. He has sent me in he continues to send me images of various amputations is doing on any given week, so it's pretty still pretty harrowing. I still get my reminders that I should still going on. Actually, long story short in the film We may not want to give that away. But there's a there's a moment in the film where the doctor really comes into his own and helps out a couple of our characters in the end, but he, yeah, Dr. Amos, Rebecca, and that little team doing everything can we all welcome that, again, with such little in the way of, you know, food and all the bits and pieces, the locals, they're really looked after us the you know, we'd have warm beds to sleep in, we had food provided by the local community, it was a was a pretty powerful time to be around in there, and also the show, I think the importance for me as the filmmaker, as the reporter, was to show that it's not just people fighting with the guns that are behind this revolution, or this, you know, this battle, it's it is it takes all sorts, and and he Amis his role along with the nurses is just, he's kind of almost like a superstar actually in the community over there. Like they just, he's revered, because without him, they got nothing. And you know, he, he's carrying a huge burden, which is evident in the program. You know, he's there's some moments with him that are very emotional and challenging, obviously, for him, but even as the the filmmaker, moments where you're really, you're really someone's really opening up to you and you know, in how show that with due respect, I don't often smoke cigarettes. But definitely after that interview, we went and I think we spoke half a pack between us. I was just like, Okay, that was heavy, but he's like, yeah, it was, but you know what, I use it, I want people to see it, because that's what it's about here, man, this is there's not a there's not an easy day here at this hospital, there's no fancy waiting room or there's no like 711 on the corner there, go and get a candy bar, while you wait for your mom to come get discharged. It's like it's it's real. And we must win again, I think even closes out the feeling like it's the last one of the last comments really said we must be

Host  1:37:10

here, you know, that's heavy that stuff you hear all the time from activists, it's just the courage the sacrifice the way they're, they're learning on the fly things that you just couldn't imagine oneself, I couldn't imagine myself in that situation, having to learn the kinds of things and make the kind of decisions that that they're making, and their their story has so much value, so much integrity to, to give those people a voice and share their story. And that's what you've done with the documentary. So it's, it's been it's, it's great to have something out there on a bigger platform. And I also really appreciate you coming on to talk about a bit of the behind the scenes, not just the documentary, but your, your own commentary and engagement in Myanmar now as well as in, in previous years. And I think I speak for many viewers that just have a real great appreciation that that you made this happen because we there's just been so little of this breaking through and, and there's so much of it to share. And and so yeah, that's that's, it's been wonderful to to see the documentary and to talk to you and just before we close here, is there anything else you want to add about your experience or perspectives that we haven't covered yet on the interview?

Matt Davis  1:38:29

Look, I think we've covered like it's been it's been an absolute pleasure to be a guest on on the podcast today. And and I do hope that you know, those listening in can you know, it's a link there to watch the film that they check it out. And because I think the visual medium that I operate in, you know, putting faces to these names, putting you know real moments with these people on camera, I think that helps you know, people understand it because it's real, it's raw, right? You see their faces, you see that? You hear the the young soldier who shot a Burmese soldier for the first time. Who, you know, tells me that he had nightmares after that because he wasn't cold blooded yet. I mean, that kid was just a little farmer before this whole thing. This is just you just see all these moments through. I mean, I don't want to scare people off but definitely there was normally I finished these programs because this this program before it's on the internet, on YouTube and so on, it's actually it's a primetime slot here on Australian television. For those that actually still watch television but nonetheless normally normally when the shows go out i i recently to film and Hawaiian sovereignty or tourism in Bali, like they're very different people coming here they're like, well, it was cool. I like nice, nice thing. Oh, well, Kelly Slater, wherever. And it's like, Okay, this one no one my phone didn't ring for 20 minutes and I was like, oh shit, I hope it was like okay, it was people were like actually just trying to find themselves like Oh, I was heavy, and I didn't know and I and that's, that's, for me the proudest thing is it was like, it's not, it's not about me but at the point is, it's like you met those people you meet Dr. Amos, you meet Sean the commander, you meet Emily, the law student you meet IDPs along the way, and each one of them gives you something. But they've given up for this story. And, and again, too, you can read about it, and you can see a photo and you can see it, but then to see it and hear and have it all put together. And in a moving documentaries, I think works really cuts through you know, it's where people go, Ah, they're human, and they're like us and you're denied. If you have a young adult younger adult child or an older brother or sister, you're like, oh, that's just like them. Like they're, they're the same age in life. And look at my you know, my kid here is it universities or college UCLA, and he surfing or skateboarding or playing basketball or like snowboarding, it's like, whoa. And I think that's really important to remember that they're just, you know, they're just like us, there are other people and they had the same things. They had Myanmar idols they had, they had Facebook, they had all those things. And it was ripped out. And they've all made the extraordinary decision, both in gym state, but again, across Myanmar, the only way forward is to fight back and defeat this military once and for all. So if anything, people listening to the show, I just liked him to watch the documentary and and feel free to reach out let me know what you think. But also share it on it, send it to your local politicians or the NGO, you know, just pass it out there. Like it's, it's it's just, it's again, I'm not chasing view numbers, like I've got them on plenty of programs is more like these are the stories that are paid a lot of time and they're hard to get the hard to make. But they're worth it. And people watch it, I think it's gonna you know, it'll make a difference.

Host  1:42:02

Thanks so much for that. And as we close as we move away from the interviewer, we're going to be playing a clip on the outro of a young woman who I believe is speaking chin language. There's for those who want to understand what she's saying, of course, watch the documentary and there's subtitles there. But as we close out, and as we start to put this clip in, why don't you tell us a bit about the background of of who this person is and what she's saying.

Matt Davis  1:42:28

Just yeah, just quickly, she's an amazing, I met I was in camp Victoria. It's a jungle headquarters of the Qin national army towards the end of our trip. And there's a whole bunch a lot of new recruits there training. We went up in the mountains digging trenches and running in the rain. And then the end of all that I meet young Emily's 22 years old from Shin state was studying international law and Yangon aspirations of getting into politics Believe it or not, given the story here we're talking about, and like so many others, when the protests happen and the young Angel, you're the first person was shot, and the protest really made an impact on her and she decided just like every like the others in the film, that she would leave her law degree. And her friends and you know, she said shared with me all their Facebook photos hanging out in the mall and getting dressed up and going to karaoke bars, all of that stuff. She's like, I can't do that right now. And she headed up to the mountains mountains with a few of her girlfriends, and they've joined in the army and she's she's again, she's like, they've had training, they know how to fire weapons, they, she says to me, you know, we win. If we win, we win. If we die, we die together. There's no you know, this is this is it for us. And I do I've got to say I asked her she's showing me about how she's learned to use the gun and how women are playing important role in the revolution as well. So you know, no one forget that when we when we when you know, women's role will be even higher again, which is a cool thing as well, because, you know, it's fairly patriarchal society. So these, these young ones are going this is our moment as well to sort of step up and be part of this revolution. And I do ask him in passing at the end, so with all that training with your weapon, if a Burmese soldier came here right now, Could you could you shoot him? Could you kill me? She was like, yep, yep, no problem. No problem. And she just gives me this huge smile with a red lipstick and manicured fingers. And Jesus was like, Absolutely, like, you know, it was just and it was a real again, it's like, wow, you know, I'm blown away when I hear those things from these people. So Young Emily I think yeah, she's it's, it's it's, it's the it's that sacrifice once again, and I think along the way, whether it's a deliberate choice to sacrifice as in the doctor or Emily, or it's the IEP is in the refugees, those have been forced to sacrifice everything they had because it's been taken or burnt down. That's what the film will show us. film shows you the extreme and an wavering commitment to winning this fight. And I think they will. It's it's not too far away so the more the international community helps and the more people get involved in the Myanmar story, I think the sooner Emily and Dr. Amos and Chung and others in the film will go back to you know, go back to their former lives and rebuild what's been taken from

1:45:37

them. 22 year old Emily grew up in a village in Finland. Before the coup, she was studying international law in the form of capital Yangon. Overnight, everything changed

1:45:57

Nero Chun Davao City imitate Korea Kucera Nero Japan and Malay coup attempt in a new address they think then they care about not intended and yeah you can omit things the highlighting here

1:46:17

so with all that training if a Burmese soldier came past you now could you kill him

1:46:22

yeah yeah no problem

1:46:30

but the reality of war for these new recruits can be devastating. along that journey to Finland has just begun and I'm pretty sure that it's gonna get a lot more bumpy from here

1:47:12

Our first stop is the headquarters of the local Qin land defense force but getting even that far you right to pray. Hello is so much