Transcript: Episode #65: The Taste of Dhamma
Following is the full transcript for the interview with these guests, which appeared on July 26 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Bhante Rahula 00:19
Door numbers so banded by no door saw no mommy does backhoe and sound does no more does sound
Venerable Canda 01:09
does
Bhante Rahula 01:10
no more does go on no sound does hear me hear you guys had the event the
Host 01:36
other one is listening to this in Myanmar or from outside the country. We know this is a very difficult time for many of us. In trying times like these, we can all use a bit more care and compassion in our lives. So on behalf of the team here at Insight Myanmar, I would like to say in the traditional way metta is offered, may you be free from physical discomfort. May you be free from mental discomfort. May You not meet dangerous or enemies. May you live a peaceful and happy life. And May all beings be free and come out of suffering in a way a new majima buddy gotta get the RMR to come with a goombazz Son of God condemned me da da, da da. Do you want to have a romantic view? Say self, self. Self. You're listening to the fourth episode in our ongoing series love letters to me and more. As many listeners likely know by now, episodes in this series featured guests reflecting about their warm and inspiring memories from their time in Myanmar. We will be bringing in a diverse range of guests for the shows, checking in with scholars aid workers, exiles, diplomats, celebrities, activists and others. to showcase how widely Myanmar's influences have touched people from such a wide range of backgrounds. On today's show, we take a spiritual angle, we touch base with three foreigners who came to me and Mar as part of their inner journey. And what follows. You'll hear from a monk, a nun and a lay meditator who share how much the golden land has enriched their lives. As our longtime listeners are aware, the origins of our podcast platform has included a focus on meditation and Buddhist practice related to Myanmar. At the time of the coup, we were working on several important in depth interviews, and these had been slated for release in February and March. Of course, the time that I had other plans and with this crisis now raging in Myanmar, we have shifted our mission to respond to this emergency as best as we are able. This has included investigating different aspects about the current situation since the coup was initiated and delving into topics and guests beyond our prior focus So today's show harkens back to the previous kinds of episodes we produce before these dark days envelop the golden land. We explore the Buddhist practice and meditative insights of three dedicated practitioners, as they also share how Myanmar has influenced and supported their spiritual path and the depth of gratitude they have for the country and people. We hope that their words and reflections are a value to practitioners everywhere. says that being said, we also want to acknowledge me and Mars rich diversity, a key topic and properly understanding the current crisis. This of course, concerns ethnicity, but also religious affiliation, or war work is focused on the Dhamma teachings of the Buddha and their manifestation in Myanmar. And even throughout these special episodes, we expect this to continue. However, we have also begun casting a wider net. And in addition to welcoming non Bomar ethnicities on the show, we will be exploring Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Jewish communities as well to bring the wider context for understanding to our audience. Our first guest will hear from on today's show is venerable Kanda
Venerable Canda 06:05
I always keep in mind that he said you can never measure progress by this or that experience on the cushion
Host 06:12
a nun from England practice for years under w Toya seda. Next we'll hear from Bhikkhu rahula.
Bhante Rahula 06:20
I mean, he just this question touches
Host 06:22
my heart, a Mexican monk who speaks to us from his retreat center in Malaysia Bonta his connections to Burma go back many years and include multiple temporary ordinations and study under several teachers. It's worth noting that I met both of these wonderful people early on in my own time in Myanmar, and I'm ever so grateful for my lasting friendship with them, as well as how they've helped and guided my own spiritual path. It's worth mentioning that each of these guests would very much merit a long form interview exploring their rich spiritual biography, like we did before the cool fact we had already recorded a long form interview with Bhikkhu rahula. But it's released we'll have to wait alongside those others for the time being. In any case, we feel fortunate to at least be able to have these abbreviated discussions for now. Finally, we hear a talk recorded last year with brento librato.
Breno 07:19
I was in such a big need of meditation that straightaway of my first course I was already meditating
Host 07:26
of a passionate meditator from the SN Goenka tradition who traveled from Brazil to Myanmar last year on a personal pilgrimage. This interview is quite different from any other we have aired since the coup. So a brief word on the context. Unlike the current interviews, which are recorded remotely, this was conducted in person in January 2020, just before the COVID pandemic hit, and a full year in advance of the coup. Although the talk to place relatively recently, in swing events make it feel from a different century. Brendel speaks excitedly and joyously about his arrival in Myanmar, and his plans for further spiritual development and the various monasteries and meditation centers he hopes to visit. It's bittersweet to revisit this conversation now, as it shines a light on a world that is currently not available, and we don't know when if ever come back. At the same time. The talk clearly fits into the current series as we hear the deep appreciation of a visitor who's benefited from this association, however brief with the Burmese people and country. Finally, we want to be clear that this new series is not in any way intended, nor should it be seen as an escape from the current circumstances in Myanmar especially for those of us now listening from places of freedom and safety, rather, is to help reground us all and why do we care so much about this country in the first place? We hope these shows can aid us in keeping our hearts firmly rooted in the golden land while also providing a sense of renewed energy and purpose as we face the latest developments. With that, let's get into the show that follows
Bhante Rahula 09:00
great Asia he led the way Oh yeah. The pay wage Hey, when I was away a Good day.
Ashley 10:24
Hello, Venerable chonda, it's an honor to have you here on this recording. I'm really looking forward to hearing about your connection to Myanmar. And a little bit about your background.
Venerable Canda 10:34
Thank you so much, Ashley for inviting me. And it's a really beautiful opportunity to share about my time in Myanmar, my connection to the people there, and a little bit about myself as well. And hopefully some messages of encouragement as well to the people in Myanmar who are going through some really terrible difficult times at the moment.
Ashley 10:55
Yes, absolutely. So I'm really curious to hear how you got started on the path of Dhamma. Okay,
Venerable Canda 11:04
I could give you a long version or a short version. But basically, I grew up in rural England in the north of England, and had quite an uneventful fairly happy childhood. And around the age of 15, I guess it's a time that we start thinking about our lives and where we want to be headed and what to choose to study and what sort of career we might want to follow. And I just had this very overwhelming sense of needing first to find the meaning of why I'm actually here, what this life is about why there's so much suffering in the world. What the purpose of suffering is whether we just suffer kind of helplessly and with no particular reason, or whether there's something we can do with that suffering in order to transform our hearts and find a compassionate response. And by the time I was about 19, I was really eager to leave the country and basically to travel to find out more about myself. So I set off to India, initially with my best friend from childhood. And it was an open ended exploration that I didn't really understand much about at the time. But very quickly, it became clear that I was on a sort of spiritual search. And so I heard about meditation retreats. And the first one that I came in contact with was the meditation taught by sn Goenka, who's actually an Indian businessman who was born and raised in Myanmar, and comes from the lineage of Lady saya door and the chain of teachers from lady saya door to Messiah that Ji and say how do you begin, and, and going big. And so I heard about these retreats where we sit alone with our own mind and body and basically figure out what's going on inside ourselves. So I didn't come to meditation through a sort of religious explanation as much as a psychological one. And that first retreat just changed my life. Because there I found the answers to why we suffer, but also how we get free. And I knew that the path would be my whole life, I made a determination then in there to dedicate my life to the Dharma. And I do remember that going kutchi mentioned monks and nuns who give their whole life to the practice. And it already kind of lit a little spark in me, a flame of curiosity, and a really deep wish to travel to Myanmar.
Ashley 13:48
Beautiful. Sounds like you were a very reflective and curious teenager. And it led you to India, where you encountered going to GS retreats. He speaks of Myanmar and how Myanmar has contributed to the Dhamma spreading around the world, especially at finding its way back to India. And it sounds like you were inspired to consider lifetime ordination during your time sitting these 10 day courses.
Venerable Canda 14:14
Yes, yes, definitely. It actually felt like a calling. Something that just felt so right in my heart. And for the next 10 years, I practiced diligently and spent a lot of time in the centers all across India, also in Myanmar and Nepal, meditating and also serving. And I think that's another thing that I learned very early on from going to GE and the way he presented the practice, I always keep in mind that he said you can never measure progress by this or that experience on the cushion but by a feeling of gratitude and a feeling to serve others. And this was very special to me and helped me to integrate my practice with everyday life and also this wishes. serve, and to repay this debt of gratitude to the Myanmar people for maintaining and preserving the Buddhist texts and also so many practices in various lineages in Myanmar, that have been, you know, passed down from teacher to disciple, throughout 1000s of years across 1000s of years. When I did first visit Myanmar in 1997, my first feeling on arriving was just how safe I felt as a woman. compared to how it felt in India, for example, it was almost the difference between in India having to sort of really keep all my belongings which were very few, but keep them closely guarded, you know, close to my body in case there are any pickpockets around. Whereas in Myanmar, I remember getting on the bus for the first time, and the people welcomed me onto the bus and said, you know, keep your things safe, we'll look after them for you. And they would actually like take care of me and made me feel so safe. And of course, in Myanmar, for anyone who's traveled there with an interest in the Dharma, there really is a monastery or a temple almost on every corner. And so many different meditation centers, which provide opportunities for men and women to participate in long retreats. So for me, it really was the golden man, you know, in terms of meditation and taking practice deeper. And it was almost like entering some kind of vortex. That was, it was almost inevitable, it felt inevitable that I would end up ordaining there.
Ashley 16:35
That's incredible. And so it sounds like you did ordain in Newmar for the first time.
Venerable Canda 16:41
Yeah, that's right. It was not for another 10 years from what that very first retreat. But throughout that time, I was, you know, keeping my eyes and ears very open. I was very dedicated to the going comb method at that time, because it will be so many benefits in my life, so much more equanimity, and stability. And understanding that I'm not reacting to situations outside that caused me suffering as much as I am to my own sensations, my own feelings and responses to that within myself. So it gave me a real method to address that at the root or closer to the root. Of course, the real root of all suffering is delusion, which goes deeper still, and can only be really overcome through right view. But it definitely gave me tools to be able to maintain equilibrium, to the ups and downs of life and also to develop this sense of deep compassion for the suffering of others, because the human mind is the human mind. And we're basically all the same. So yeah, when I would visit Myanmar, invariably or be asked by people in the meditation centers, are you going to ordain, you know, if you're Dain here will look after you will, you know, recommend places to go and, but I couldn't find the right place for myself for another 10 years. And at that time, I was actually studying Indian medicine in England, because I realized it could be some time before finding a monastery, to renouncing and ironically, as the story would go, it was after starting to study that somebody mentioned to me that there was now a royal monastery in tip u, which is close to Lorca junction, in Moby Moby and gone district. And, and I was just literally jumping for joy. As I just can't believe this. I've been waiting for this for so many years. Finally, I'm going to have this opportunity to ordain. So I went out in 2000, for the first time, by now, I'd already visited Myanmar quite a few times. So I went out during one of my summer holidays, and took ordination for the three month, summer period for the first time. And that was with my teacher who I'd eventually take the ordination with, again, two years later, after finishing my degree, you mentioned debut Seattle,
Ashley 19:13
is that right? Yes, that's right. I believe he was a monastic at in the Ganga tea tradition? That's correct.
Venerable Canda 19:19
Yes, he was actually appointed by going to GE to conduct retreats as a bhikkhu. And it's quite rare actually, for because to be appointed, but I think it was due to some very deep insight that he had. He was ordained at a very young age, which is quite common, I think, especially in poorer families. And he wouldn't really talk about the background very much but I think he was ordained from a young age, you know, sort of five or six as a novice and then took the ordination as soon as he was able. But even as a young teenager, he was practicing deep Samadhi under the guidance of sunlen saya door and then when he He did get invited to India to go and do retreats there with going qiji, he, he gained very deep insight quite quickly as a result of his strong foundation and of course, a life of virtue, you know, life of pristine, sila, ethics, virtuous conduct. And so I heard about him and I heard that he was developing a monastery where Westerners could also come over and ordain. And when I first visited that place, there was actually nothing there that was just a Dharma Hall, without any doors or windows at that time. So it was full of mosquitoes. Of course, no air con, I don't think even a fan. We had some little musty, skeeto coils that we've burned from time to time, but it was very, very basic and very, very hot. But it didn't matter to me, I just wanted to be there and to take the guidance of saya punya, Jota. And, yeah, it felt like stepping back into the days of the Buddha. It was very, in a way. I wouldn't say romantic, but something very evocative, because the lifestyle was so simple. And so focused on practice.
Ashley 21:18
Actually, I'm reminded of my time in Myanmar, sitting a retreat after sitting courses in the West. And I remember sitting in a hall filled with lots of Yogi's, and it must have been the month of May. And we were just completely drenched in sweat as we were sitting. There must have been a fan or two in the room, but it was quite different conditions to practice in.
Venerable Canda 21:42
Yes, absolutely. It's very hot. And I was always quite touched during the tinjauan Festival in May, in the month of May, which is probably the hottest season in Myanmar. And of course, the demo halls and most of the buildings have these metal roofs, which really trap the heat. And the Burmese people would just flood into the monasteries and into the meditation centers at that time, because they had national holidays. And I was just blown away by the, their diligence in meditation, their ability to just meditate, you know, eyes closed, cross legged for hours at a stretch straight from their ordinary day to day life. And then the real beauty which was quite touching was that in the breaks, they would go back to their rooms, and you know, you're supposed to maintain silence the whole time. But they would go to the rooms, and they'd get out all these LED pepto, you know, the pickled tea leaf salad, and then have kind of tea parties in the rooms where the Burmese ladies would get together and chat and Shaw together and and then come back into the Dharma Hall, right on time and again in silence and straight into their meditation. And I remember in the beginning sort of going around trying to maintain the discipline is we're taught to in the going consistency, you know, it's quiet time, it's silence all the time, even in the rooms. But then after a while, I realized that this was their opportunity to share and talk in a safe space. And you know, of course, the AMA was already under the military dictatorship then and have been for, I don't know, maybe almost 50 years, throughout the time that I was in Myanmar as a non. And so I realized that this was also an important part of feeling safe for them. So it was very, it was very nice, actually to, to see that they had the opportunity to integrate and to relax, and then meditate. And I think maybe that actually helped the meditation.
Ashley 23:44
Yeah, it's a real sense of closeness community and camaraderie amongst the Yogi's. I'm curious, when you decided to ordain? Was there a moment when you made that final decision? I'm going to do this for life, or was the decision more of a slow progression?
Venerable Canda 24:02
I think, because as I mentioned, the aspiration to ordain arose fairly quickly. In my practice life. Within the first couple of years, I was very sure that that was the way I was headed. And I practiced a lot of retreats on probably over 50 or 60, going code retreats, including the long retreats, 30 days, and 45 days. And he got to the point where I just didn't really want to come out of the meditation, I felt like what's the point? I just want to keep going deeper and exploring my inner world. You know, I was making progress. And it was just I was fascinated by seeing the Dharma unfold and you know, understanding impermanence more and more deeply and I just wanted to continue so it came to a point where it just felt like a very natural thing to do. It was almost harder to continue in lay life than it would have been to ordain. The obstacle was in terms of opportunities to ordain and finding suitable conditions. But at the same time, obviously, this is a very different path from perhaps the path that my parents would have expected me to take. And although I think I sort of mentioned it to them all along the way that one day, I hope to ordain, I didn't want to sort of shock them straightaway by saying it was for life. So I sort of said to myself, and to them, you know, I'll give it a try. But interestingly, as soon as I met my teacher, I think either the first or the second time, I'm not quite, I think it was the very first time. He said, if you're doing is it for life, and I just said, Yes. And it was from the heart, you know, it was just from the heart. And he said, if you're dying for life, I'll build you acuity. And I kind of thought nothing of it. But it felt like I mean, nothing of it, in terms of whether that would happen or not, or any expectation of that. But it just felt like an immediate acceptance. As his disciple for the long term, light, he was taking me under his wing, and perhaps he could see the strength and my aspiration, I'm not sure. But you know, two or three years later, after going back the second time to a day and, and living in a monastery, he did, in fact, build me acuity, myself and another Western non on top of a hill, where there was a lot of wealth, a little bit more breeze, and a beautiful view of the pagoda that he was building there. And so I feel that it was sort of my intention was set from the outset. But the beauty of monastic life in the Buddhist tradition is that you don't need to take any vows. You don't need to make any promises, you can always leave if it's not working for you. And there's no shame or stigma in that. So, for me, I think it's a constant questioning even to, to this day, I know it's 15 years since I've been alone. I still ask myself, is this headed in the right direction? Am I increasing unwholesome states? You know, are the unwholesome states lessening, getting weaker? Being overcome? And am I aligned with my higher aspirations and goals? So that's a very much a living question for me. But I feel at a certain point, with the renouncing, it sort of has its own momentum. And it's almost impossible to imagine going back to LA life.
Ashley 27:21
Thank you so much for sharing that, that is very inspiring. It sounds like all the conditions really came together for you to ordain for life. And it sounds like you spent most of your time in your Mar as a newly ordained nun. Is that right? Yes, I
Venerable Canda 27:37
spent almost four years in Myanmar. So it was the sort of beginning of my monastic life, but it was a very good foundation, I think for the rest of my monastic life that was tall. Now, of course, I had no idea which direction that would take. But it was difficult health wise, and I did have some health difficulties that meant I had to leave the country and you know, go to have examinations investigations, and then come back again and, and try to settle down. And I think eventually it just became too difficult to stay there due to the climate and the my dietary and stomach issues. So so I had to leave in the end.
Ashley 28:23
Yes, yeah. After I started sitting long courses, and in the going kitschy tradition, those have really been the best days of my life, sitting long retreats, and they I had certain inclinations to take on the monastic life. And it took a few years, but based on my family dynamics, I also wanted to take care of my parents in their older age. So I made a sort of a sharp decision to really commit to the lay practitioner life and, and yet, as you mentioned earlier, the role of service and how that's so central to the Buddhist teachings, and progress on the path. So I want to know if you have any thoughts around social responsibility of lay practitioners, or if you have any thoughts around engaged Dhamma?
Venerable Canda 29:14
That's a lovely question. Thank you for asking, because I do believe we have to learn how to bring our practice on the cushion into every aspect of our life. The Buddha taught the Eightfold noble path and part of that is right action, right speech, right livelihood, and of course, right motivation, which hopefully under underlies all those three. So I think it will differ from person to person, but for me, a very important part of ethics is taking it from abstaining from doing harm abstaining from you know breaches of ethical conduct into active practice of virtue. So the Buddha talks about both abstaining from the harmful but performing the wholesome, the wholesome action and I think that will take different it will look very different for different people. But I think in terms of what's happening in Myanmar at the moment where people are being harmed and you know, endanger their lives. For me, that compassion that many develops deeply in the heart must manifest as action. When compassion grows, it overflows into our speech and bodily conduct and where people are being harmed, I think it's almost natural. And it's a necessity to, to try to prevent that harm. So I can't really say how people should respond in given situations, because, obviously, I've never been in any situation like this. And I think it's very hard for us as Westerners, or people who've been brought up in democracies to understand how it feels to help or freedoms taken away, and to live in danger of our lives, you know, without even doing anything wrong, other than walking out to go shopping, walking out into the street. But I think, you know, as long as our actions and ways of approaching any sort of social injustice are coming from the motivations of loving kindness, non ill will, in other words, from non cruelty of him, sacrosanct The purpose of the second noble path, second factor, the noble path, non cruelty, non violence, yeah. Non harming, and also renunciation, so, letting go, then we are on the right track. And I think we have to be very honest about, you know, our motivations, because I can imagine that it's very, very difficult in a situation where, you know, you are in danger of your life, not to develop ill will and hatred towards the oppressor. And I think that's the great challenge here. Because the Myanmar people have always, for me been exemplars of incredible strength and gentleness, but also non harm. And I think, you know, certainly in the beginning of these protests, it was the peacefulness and the commitment to non harm to non violence that really, but gained the world support, you know, that gained international support and so much sympathy from the international community. So if, if that can continue to be a nonviolent movement towards democracy, this is really wonderful. And it's part of active virtue, I would say, it's very much part of the path.
Ashley 32:45
Thank you for that beautiful explanation. I think one of the things that can happen with lay practitioners is that we tend to want to compartmentalize our practice, and maybe keep it separate from the more Messier aspects of the world. And it sounds like you're saying this ethical responsibility to support that which is wholesome, and to lessen those things that are unwholesome and all the various aspects of our lives.
Venerable Canda 33:15
Absolutely, yes. And I think that's part of the renunciation were actually renouncing, selfishness were renouncing, clinging on even to our comforts, and our silence, you know, meditation space at times, because sometimes we can become almost too attached to having certain conditions in which to practice. And we believe that we can't make progress if those conditions are not in place. Whereas actually, I think the practice is trying to train us to be able to face any conditions and maintain, continue to be aligned to the donor. And as I said, that can take different forms. It's not only Samadhi and Sati, you know, the last few factors of the path, or it's also right effort, noticing are my actions of body and speech, leading to the wholesome states increasing and developing, or are they leading to the unwholesome states coming in and, you know, gaining momentum in the mind taking hold of the mind. And of course, before that, we have the sealer, the seal aspect of the noble path, which again, is to perform wholesome actions not only abstain from harmful actions. So as I say, will look different for different people. But I think as laypeople there's certainly an opportunity to engage. I mean, you're engaged in your everyday life anyway, with family with work with friends. You know, we can't just turn our backs on, on what's happening in the world and yet at the same time, it's important to try to remain resourced. So I think this is where the daily practice the practice in our daily life can come in that we do Take time to meditate time to just check in with ourselves and try to address any of the trauma that can arise when confronting such difficult situations that are almost inconceivable for people. You know, like myself who haven't been through anything like that in my life, even as somebody with very close connections to me, it's very, very upsetting and, and hard to bear at times. So, you know, I can only imagine how it is for people from Myanmar people who may be living outside of Myanmar and have family over there. Or, of course, for people in Myanmar, who are just trying to stay safe and remain positive and hopeful for the future, and trying to understand how they can be involved and how far they are willing to risk their lives. So I think, you know, those of us who do have the privilege, to find a safe space to find a quiet space to practice and to process some of that, and, you know, learn to meet the difficulties with compassion, I think we're in a better position then to again, go out maybe as activists or you know, doing whatever you can do raising funds or getting involved in various organizations that want to help over there. We can do that from a more resource place. So I think it's always a balance, and that balance will change from person to person. So it's important not to judge ourselves or anyone else. But just to be very honest, to where we're coming from and, and how best we can serve. Beautiful. Thank
Ashley 36:40
you so much for that explanation. I wonder if you're connected to monastics or lay practitioners, or lay persons that are currently living in Myanmar, and how they're all doing during these times?
Venerable Canda 36:54
Yeah, I'm not connected to many monastics there. Now, although I do see from time to time, one of the monastics who lives with my teacher who is now in another part of Myanmar, and maybe better that I don't say where. So I see that he seems okay. And the community, they seem okay. I have other life friends in Myanmar, who I just keep in touch with with very short messages on Facebook, and I just send messages of support. And I can feel, you know, that they're not able to say too much. But their families also live in like one of my main supporters, her family, her daughter's living in Australia. So I've had more direct contact with them. And they can also, you know, pad it out a little bit, but they just say that their hearts are completely shattered. And I think it's the same for many of us who have such deep connections with that land, not only because of the terrible situation there for the people whose lives are at risk, and whose futures are so uncertain, but also in terms of Myanmar, representing to so many of us a place of peace, a place of deep practice and devotion to the dummer. And a place that we can go to that we've had, you know, the honor the privilege to go to, to deepen our meditation, and, you know, just the thought of that no longer being a resource for people in the world is absolutely devastating. Because this is something that the Burmese people have preserved for so many 1000s of years. And that we can, you know, we can benefit from, and I think many people, especially laypeople throughout the Western world, sometimes aren't aware of actually that their lineage comes from Myanmar. The mindfulness movement, you know, that was started and made very popular by people like Jon Kabat Zinn and Sharon Salzberg, Joseph Goldstein in in the US. You know, the insight movement in England as well through guy house. All of this has its roots in Myanmar. And many, much of the time, we're not aware where that comes from.
Ashley 39:14
You Mara has really contributed to the development and then the spread of Dhamma around the world. And at a time when they're, the people of Myanmar are in such a vulnerable state. I personally think it makes sense that we all rally behind them and support them at this time.
Venerable Canda 39:31
Absolutely. I think you know, that they know they are not alone, and that they're not forgotten, even if we don't hear as much about what's happening within that country. I also want to say that, you know, around your question of how we can, and how far we should be involved in engaged Buddhism, so to speak, as lay practitioners or as monastics, I think we can take a really good example from the Myanmar people and again, I've been incredibly impressed. Because I know, people in that country is as deeply committed to the practice of virtue, you know, even just the average person on the street that you would meet would have an understanding of the five precepts. And they would, you know, maybe take the eight precepts on the positive days. And as I say, it gave a sense of real safety, you know, for me as a female traveler as well in that country, and to see that dedication to deep meditation. It's just incredible to see that that can also transform into this kind of activism that it doesn't remain just a sort of ideology, our philosophy, but they can bring it into the streets, they can stand in front of people who you know, maybe threatening their lives and offer a rose or offer some water or try to reason with them using the Buddhist teachings, you know, try to talk about meta, try to talk about karma. For me, this is just incredible. And it shows how deeply the Myanmar people have understood and integrated their practice for generations,
Ashley 41:09
regarding the Buddhist teachings, being so deeply suffused in most everyday persons you meet on the street of Myanmar, it seems like so many are willing to give up their life to help serve and protect the safety and well being of others at this time. And, to me, that's just so inspiring. It makes me want to do everything that I possibly can, for my safety and comfort to help them. So I wonder if you have any words of encouragement for the people of Myanmar right now, with everything that they're facing?
Venerable Canda 41:47
Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Because that definitely is my experience of the Myanmar people. And I think part of their courage at this time, probably comes from a very deep appreciation, and trust in karma, you know, in that the quality of our motivation determines our long term happiness or suffering. And that if we're coming from a good place, there's really nothing to fear in the long run in the wider perspective of things. And that white perspective includes concepts such as karma and rebirth. And you know, in Myanmar, the people that I've met, have this, you could call it a faith, perhaps some people also have direct experience of things such as future lives. And I think this also can bestow great courage and a bigger picture, a bigger perspective, to the people there and to the meaning of what they're willing to sacrifice now. So I would just like to really encourage people, especially those who are willing to sacrifice their life, or maybe people who are living in a lot of fear about what is going to happen to them and their families, that you know, if you are on the path of dumber if you are really coming from kindness, from compassion from letting go from this understanding that all you can take with you ever, is, as a sort of summation of the goodness in your heart, the good qualities that you've developed in this lifetime, nobody else can take that away, you're going to carry that on with you throughout samsara into future lives. You know, as the Buddha said, people can come with a to handle saw and cut you up into small pieces. But if we develop a mind of hate, we're not practicing the Buddha's teachings. And that's a very, very high standard of practice, you know, and not one that we would invite upon ourselves. But I think there's a lot of meaning to that. Because basically, no one can harm you, as long as your sealer is strong, your seal is intact. So we do our best we can't be perfect in this world. But I would just like to encourage the people by saying, we see you we see your virtue, your courage, your resilience, you know, your commitment to non harm, and you're on the right side of history, you know, you're working towards democracy, which is something that is so aligned with the Buddhist values. The Buddha set up the Sangha as a democracy, you know, a democracy is something that gives everybody a chance. So, if you choose to sacrifice or if you have no choice, but to sacrifice, so much in pursuit of democracy and freedom from fear, you are on the right side of history and you're on the right side of ethics, you're on the Buddhist path. So as far as possible, let's try to keep this a peaceful movement because that will, in the end, bear fruit. I really trust that. I really trust that even if we don't see it soon. Hopefully we'll see it very soon. But we Remember, this is for the sake of future generations as well. And I think it's having that bigger perspective that is giving this movement such power. So the world is learning from the Myanmar people right now. And I think from my position all I can do is humbly express my, my gratitude, my respect, and also my support.
Bhante Rahula 45:31
What am I gonna do we are done under the gun is gonna we got our busier and basically, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada number.
Ashley 45:49
Hello, Bhante. rahula, thank you for being here today.
Bhante Rahula 45:53
Thank you very much. I'm very pleased to be here. And thank you for the invitation. Yes.
Ashley 45:58
So I'd love to hear a little bit about yourself about you and your background.
Bhante Rahula 46:04
I born in Mexico, and I lived there until I was 26 years old. And then I moved to I started traveling, I was a musician as a lay person. And then I came to live in Asia for the last almost 20 years. And I got in contact with Buddhist teaching. And then I went to Burma, and my whole whole life change. Now I'm a Buddhist monk, and I dedicate my life fully full time to learning and practicing the Dharma.
Ashley 46:34
That's incredible. And did you discover the Dhamma while you were in Mexico?
Bhante Rahula 46:39
No, actually, I discovered when I came to Asia, in Japan, I took my first going caddy retreat, 10 day retreat. And then I practice that for about four years consistently. And then some questions starting to arise. And then I follow them trying to go deeper into the understanding. And that led me to to arrive to Burma to different monasteries, and learn from different teachers, much more varieties and ways of applying the Dharma in our life. Yes.
Ashley 47:14
That's beautiful. And so you mentioned that you practice in the going good tradition for about four years. And then you went to Myanmar. What was it like for you to land in Newmar, after having sat retreats?
Bhante Rahula 47:27
Wow, he was like, like a boom, internal boom, boosting the practice. Because, one, while I was only practicing, they're going big tradition, he was mostly sitting meditation. But when I arrived to the monasteries, I recognized that there were much more to it. There are many ways to apply the Dharma and learn from the Dharma internally and externally, in all kinds of postures, although in the in the going big tradition, there are some courses about the Sati putana. So I could see that more alive. In the in the practice in Burma, it was really like boom and bust, I felt I felt a degree of freedom and responsibility. The teachers, there was no one looking what what are you doing if you're sitting or not. So the teachers kind of give you the responsibility, you are responsible of your own mind. And you know, what you do what you do, or we only want, that you are aware from the morning, you wake up until you go to bed. And then you can do apply the mental stability and the techniques for any activity. So that really was a boost because the life became the retreat. I didn't need it anymore to go to a specific retreat, although is very useful. And if possible, I also tried to do right now I'm in retreat in Malaysia, and South America in a Buddhist sanctuary. So I tried to do retreats, and then apply the domain daily life.
Ashley 48:52
That's wonderful. It sounds like the monastic setting really supported your practice even more.
Bhante Rahula 48:59
Yes, yes. Right. I ordained for the first time in 2004. I ordained a few temporary times because I still had a late life to attend. But since five years ago, I retired. So now I can dedicate all the all the time and energy to now learning practicing and also sharing them.
Ashley 49:22
I'm curious to hear a little bit about your inclination to ordain. Was that something that you thought you would do before you went to Newmar?
Bhante Rahula 49:31
I had when I was a teenager, I had some some glimpses because I was practicing meditation since I was 19. And I started with Hindu meditation. And the monk the Hindu monks actually told me that I had potential to become a monk. So that really stuck her curiosity in me. So I was not ready. I got a little bit afraid actually, at that time, I was 19. And so when I was 2626 27, I arrived to Burma. No, no, no, a little bit. No, sorry. Sorry, hello are almost 29 something, I arrived in Burma and then I came to Sri Omen to the monastery with saya rotation here. And I discovered that I could ordain temporarily. So I thought, wow, this is a great opportunity to try it, I had this lead to curiosity inside. And I tried it and I loved it since since the first time I really liked because according to the mind that I carry, the tendency that it has to have the surrounding and the rules, I held the mind to focus much more than when it is free, free free credit for for craving as a lay person. In my case, I will say that depends on the individual. In my case, it has been very, very beneficial to have this to have these boundaries. So I made five times experiments. And then this is the sixth time and I'm comfortable, I don't need to go back to work. So I think I continue working. He has been great, great for In my case, I recommend if somebody would like to eat or drink temporarily can No, I have to say that at the beginning is quite awkward. You don't know how to arrange the ropes. And you need to be wary about the rules. But later on the rules actually are very supportive. So you don't think about many things because they're out of your mind already. So it's very helpful for the practice as well.
Ashley 51:23
Yeah, you were really quite fortunate, I think, to be able to really devote your life to being a monastic and a country like Myanmar really does support that, you know, in comparison to say, country like the United States. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about how the country has supported you on your path.
Bhante Rahula 51:45
Oh, everything. What else can I say? Even even what I learned about the Dharma before before entering Burma, he came from Burma. So I mean, he just this question touches my heart because everything The most important thing that I ever encountered in my life, is a gift from Burma. And I lived there I went many I've been there for for extended periods of time, many times. I learned from many teachers and have rejoice on the supports the generous support of so many people for for you just to cultivate. So it is really beyond words is priceless. And, well, the most, the biggest treasure in my life and something that I'm dedicated, and I hope I can live up to it and do service for the Dharma and all the generosity of all these people. May I contribute in a way that they feel proud that the Dharma is spreading and benefiting more people. Now in also in Latin America, my own mother now knows I've been there, man, we can talk. And she practices and my sisters and many friends. So, so it is priceless. This is just the greatest treasure I have ever gotten in this life came from precious Burma.
Ashley 53:04
Yes, yes, I totally relate. I think, you know, having been born in Myanmar, and I was born into a Buddhist family. But I had the opportunity to explore other religions when I was a teenager. And I was very curious. But, you know, eventually, I discovered dama pataca in Georgia and set my first 10 day retreat and, and it's just saved my life, really. So I feel like I owe everything to, you know, the tradition and just the country of Newmar that has kept this practice alive. So yeah,
Bhante Rahula 53:39
it is it is really unbelievable, the effort of so many generations to keep goodness, alive. So So now with the current situation, we need to find ways to support the individuals and and of course the the treasure that is contained.
Ashley 53:59
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so I wonder, after arriving to Myanmar, was there any challenges, you know, regarding the language or the food or even the climate there?
Bhante Rahula 54:12
Nothing really, the benefits were so great that the little challenges that were present, were insignificant. Really? That wasn't my case. Yeah. Nothing, nothing. A little bit hard sometimes, but no problem.
Ashley 54:30
Yeah. And so earlier, you mentioned that par Yachty has played a central role in your practice. And, and there was a big difference between sitting silent retreats and then actually going into Myanmar where you had access to more studying of the Dhamma. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Bhante Rahula 54:50
Yeah, to studying I can, we can say that. It was five years of only practice, then five years of only practicing but all in all, In an open way, practicing while we're walking, eating, talking, like incorporating it into life. And then after the 10th year of practice, I started learning about the Arboretum especially and some suitors. And that was a second boost, I had a first boost in life was encountering the Dharma, a second one was when the Dharma became became life, alive, not just sitting, but in any any moment. And as I was waking up, and then later on, when the study, there was a third post, that I can describe, simply like the first years of practice, the teachers will tell you what and how to do, but then when you study, you learn the Y, but when the Y comes in the whole practicing takes a very different depth and meaning, because you know, why are you doing this? Where are you in in the development and what are the next either challenges or things to be addressed, or the successes that you are looking for in your mental stability, and then the whole practice starts becoming more complete, I will say, because you know the importance, you understand why the beginning, the teachers just give you the precepts, but then later on unit, you understand why, then they give you the meditation technique. And then later on, you add this is why because you're attacking these hindrances, and then you start with sila, then you start stabilizing the mind, and then wisdom will come. But often, if we try to find all the wisdom, that the Buddha God by himself, he will take us, he owns us as as he took him. So fortunately, in terms of wisdom, I will say, is the most important side of learning and studying, because the Buddha left the wisdom already as a map. So we can use at the beginning, that bore of wisdom to start contemplating our own practice, are hopeful of hoping that it starts becoming an actual experience, and in small ways it does. So we know what we're looking for, where we're going, and where we are in the practice. And that really, really makes a big change. And when somebody asked us about the practice, we can more certain refer them to the Scriptures until the year the Buddha says this, because of these and these, and these cause and effect, cause and effect cause and effect, it becomes much, much more logic. And I will recommend to anybody to really open up to both sides to of course, continue practicing, but studying is essential, essential. Hmm.
Ashley 57:31
Yeah, I love how you phrase that it sounds like, you know, when you first start practicing, you start discovering insights within your own body and mind. And, and just having, you know, the par Yachty along with it just really helps to clarify things and just enhance or strengthen your practice even more, and then they just kind of go back and forth and enhance one another. So yes, yes, just like that
Bhante Rahula 57:58
it is. And then you have the map is greater than our how much we have walked. So a lot of hope arises because you can see where our minds if we continue working our heart, where are they heading, and the only destination they're heading is just inner beauty and benevolence, I mean, it is it is very inspiring to see. And then there is so much to to, to incorporate in our lives that it gives a boost in energy and wanting to continue doing it for our own well being or that of our families and many other people.
Ashley 58:37
So it sounds like your timing mimar has really had an impact on your development and Dharma as well as just your development as a human being.
Bhante Rahula 58:48
Definitely, definitely, if I have never touched ground in Burma in Myanmar before, I will be a very different human being. It changed my life. I mean, I devoted my life and my teachers, I the other teachers, not just mine, but everybody's teachers are there. And the gratitude and how much it has shaped the way I see. And now many more people that are learning the domain Spanish is just surprise after surprise. So he has changed many people's lives. And I think many people who is listening will agree with this. We have seen all these precious gifts is amazing.
Ashley 59:31
Yeah, and so you mentioned that you've practiced under different teachers. And I wonder if there's a particular teacher that really stood out during your time in EMR or have played a central role in your development.
Bhante Rahula 59:47
There are a few cells here to incorporate the Dharma into life to make our life our retreat. I think is key. I still have our army contact with him. And then it'll go say hello Nanda Mallaby wanzer, which is my preceptor and all the learning I have learned from him, I will do so sorry, all the all the information and wisdom that he possessed. He is very skillful in putting it into simple words. And there is another teacher with whom I had a great, great, greater gratitude. But he's not in Burma. He's Burmese, but lives in Macau. And I was living in Macau for few years. So actually, the most theory and understanding of the Scriptures has come through his generous time, hours and hours, days and months, actually years that he spent sharing the Dharma. So not in Burma, but as a as a Burmese, Burmese monk and Burmese community who supported him and my studies there. So these three teachers are dear, but there are more teachers, who I have had the fortune to learn things a little bit more informal or for less period of time. But I will say the main teachers will be those three, they
Ashley 1:01:09
bantay, earlier you mentioned that, with everything happening in Myanmar right now that it's so important for us to do everything that we can, especially because of the Buddhist teachings, having been preserved there, and still in existence there. And so I wonder, you know, as a monastic, what role do you think other monastics can play at this current time?
Bhante Rahula 1:01:34
Well, first, I see two dimensions to the to the help we can give one is to the people, to the people themselves, it doesn't matter who it doesn't matter, whoever is suffering, we can, we need to see and try to do something about it. And as you mentioned, the preservation of the Dharma. Another thing to point out is that we cannot put since monks we have we are, we have a different way of living, we have chosen to take a different way of living separate from, from that of our previous lay lay habits, we must in the same way understand that the things that a monk or a lay person can do are different. So one of the things even in the Scriptures, the Buddha was not encouraging the monks, for example, to get involved into politics and has a very simple reason. And a very logical one. The Dharma is universal, the Dharma is here to help human beings free from suffering. So as soon as a monk takes aside, the people from the other side will not come to him. So the people from the other side will not listen to the Dharma. So then the beauty of it the link, the universality of it is broken. That is why it's very delicate for monks to do or they will need extra skill to find a way to be to be helpful, remembering their their oath, their primordial responsibility. So I will say that as a monk, I will speak as a monk, I think as a lay people, we know what we can do, being generous, supporting any cause that we feel. But I think in general, all of us, we must go beyond parties, or sides and start looking as humans, there is a big among humans, there is a problem. And we know and the teachers and the Buddha left very clear where things are right and where things are wrong. So when somebody else because of your personal interest is wrong. From any side, it doesn't matter who is doing it. So, from from these moral stand, I think one of the duties of the monkeys was one to remember to continue reminding, to give comfort to people who is being a victim of it, regardless of the side to remember the the bad consequences of doing bad and remember the good consequences of doing good. So how to balance the mind in any situation as much as possible in our, in our neutral moments, not not in times of of heightened activity in our neutral moments how to learn and use the techniques to come back to oneself, come to our senses, develop our right frame of mind with equanimity, with metta and under keeping this frame that we are humans, beyond our differences beyond our uniform, some parties, we are humans and we are to we all want to be free from suffering and there are ways to do so. And the first thing we can do is is develop as much wisdom and start inner stability as we can and try to move forward finding a common ground where no harm is done, and everybody can come flourish. So this is this is where it becomes a little bit more often I'm asked like lay people who as white amongst our worst should do this or should that but we must understand the universality of the term And we are the day take how we say the stewards of that Dharma and Dharma is universal. So we must understand from a general perspective, regardless, the party, I wouldn't say, again, regardless a party or a political inclination, we are dealing with human suffering. We know what is right to do. And we know what is wrong in the action, not in the individual, or the affiliation they have.
Ashley 1:05:26
Yeah, thank you so much for mentioning that. You know, I think you make a really excellent point, because just as the civilians are currently really suffering in Myanmar, I think so are the military soldiers, including, and maybe especially the military generals, who are, you know, quite mistaken. And, and, yeah, I think
Bhante Rahula 1:05:50
they are also suffering, but justice is not apparent right now. And the suffering is being planted right now. So from any side, we must understand that now there is a conflict, and all parties suffer, and the more misdeeds anybody from every side, any kind of violent or, or, or or an unknowable ignoble act that is performed, sooner or later will just bear its fruit. So right now, it's just a matter of perspective. With we apparently, we think though these people or the wrongdoer from any side, this is abusing, and yes, it is causing harm on to somebody else, but the seeds are being planted. So even compassion can be generated out of it. The problem is not the military or the people, or the views of political and thing, the problem, the essence of the problem is low dose, and more greed in any of our hearts version in any of our hearts, and in the immense ignorance that we all carry. And I cannot raise my hand and say that I don't have greed, or lust or desire, attachment, of course, there still is, all of us have it all, none of us can raise the hand and say that we don't have a version, and then Least of all ignorance. So to point fingers to one side and to the other. It's just making the process longer. And we must all focus as much as possible. I'm not I'm not trying to be naive and think that everybody will take the position, hopefully we can, through dialogue first, or, or through through common inspiration. whoever wishes start recognizing that the real problem, the real problem, the thing that is causing the misbehave, in the background is greed is it's a it's a thirst for power, or it's a thirst for feeling be of people in case of lay people so to to feel hurt, and then allowing anger and rage to go. And then as soon as soon as that we are unskillful and allow these negative emotions to pop up, then our actions will just be the follow up. So as the Buddha very beautiful, he says, hatred can never be overcome by hatred only by love. This is an eternal law. So we must we must go and start looking, fortunately, in hope that the waters calmed down a little bit. And people come into it senses because Burmese people more than us being on the west or boring in the West, no. So it can be good to be reminding one another, that the real the real problem is the cause of suffering, as the Buddha said is his desire attachments. And that's it, you just look at it. And we can go beyond affiliations and uniforms. It's a human problem. We have a human problem all of us and the ignorance of the people hurting others. You will just reap their fruit sooner or later and ignorance rolling ignorance rolling it's an I have it, we all have it we The first thing we must do is become responsible of our own greed, aversion and ignorance. That's the first thing we should do because it's still alive in our hearts.
Ashley 1:09:14
Right. And so it sounds like as the people of Myanmar are really thinking through how to respond to the recent military coup that they really need to be considering. Is this intention or this action going to result in the type of Yes,
Bhante Rahula 1:09:34
I mean, it's I know it's bone hard to chew. But yes, nature work like that. Whatever we have planted in the past gives fruit in the present whatever we are planting in the present will give fruit in the future. So I think one good thing, whatever choose choice, everywhere we all all of us take, we must consider not just the immediate Of course we need to be safe and and Have community to avoid any kind of harm, but also have a deeper view of the implications of our actions. So, in that what we need to do more than the apparent is the intention, why are we doing something? So if the action is being impaled by unwholesome intention, I mean the fruit is is unavoidably come, suffering sooner or sooner or later when the conditions are, are present. So, yes, we need to keep that, and I'm saying that first thing need people need to be, avoid harm as much as possible team up and find clever ways to to, to be able to stand for for for worries just in a way that does not generate suffering, not in themselves and not in orders. Remembering that it's just a known as playing around the real enemy is lower, those are more, and we still have it inside. So, we cannot underestimate that. Because if we are inspired by the heat of the moment, we might do actions that later on, we will unavoidably receive the painful results. We need to see in a little bit in a second dimension, not just the immediate, but of course, I take as much care as possible in the direct for us and all the families.
Ashley 1:11:31
Right, right. So it sounds like whatever solutions that people are, are coming to and whatever responses and actions they're taking, they really need to consider the short term and the long term results of those actions and, and the action is both seed and fruit.
Bhante Rahula 1:11:49
Yes, the action starts as a seed, and we'll give fruit and whatever we are reacting to is the fruit of previous action. That's how the nature works. I mean, in the laws of physics, even we can see it's just cause and effect cause and effect in terms of consciousness and bigger movements, it works like that. So we make making peace with it also helps. And if we know the law, what what is the hope in it is we know what kind of qualities we need to foster and keep keep present. So then the practice comes in. In moments that are not very urgent, we need to find a way to come back to our senses come back to a middle point, and reframe our mind with the wisdom and the Neverland compassion as much as possible even for the aggressor. People don't know what they're doing for the harm they're doing to themselves, we are to ourselves as a humanity.
Ashley 1:12:46
Right, right. It's like our enemy is in the aggressor themselves, but it's the aggression. Or it's, you know, our enemy isn't the ignorant person, per se, but it's actually ignorance. And so the more we cultivate wisdom and understanding and compassion, the more our actions will lead to the results that we really want.
Bhante Rahula 1:13:08
Yeah, we will have we will have a step forward, because we are seeing beyond the individual, we won't get hooked with individual just by just by making the question what is making this individual arc in this way, and you will see immediately the negativity will come up either either force either some people are forced to some kind of grid that might not come directly from him, but you just follow the thread and you will see that there will be some some negativity is very apparent, some blindness in in all of us. So when we did the first thing I think we need to take care of in any side of the of the conflict, to see that we don't fall onto the same or to the same thing that is generating the problem. Sometimes we want to make the fire go out with gasoline. So no, no, no, no, we need to be very careful not to incur in more ignorant on and more negativity. I know, it's difficult. I know it takes more time. But he has been shown in him human history that it is possible to take a stand and do not cooperate in a way that for the sake of everybody's well being let's not harm each other. Nobody. But of course there are many dimensions to it. We are just talking and the the problem is bigger. But hopefully, hopefully we can keep the division clears at least to keep metal inner balance.
Ashley 1:14:35
Well, I'm so thankful that you shared that piece of wisdom with us. I think it is a very important message, especially right now. You know, as violence continues to increase, I think, you know, we want to respond or react very quickly grabbing the nearest bucket of liquid and it may be gasoline instead of water. And so just taking the time to really get clear within ourselves. What is the right action here. I wonder vontae if you have had a chance to speak with any of your teachers, if they've been able to offer any words of wisdom themselves or encouragement that has been helpful to you during these times?
Bhante Rahula 1:15:16
Well, I have had, because of the internet cuts, I've had a little little contact with our teachers, and as far as we know that they are fine, but we haven't been able to really have longer conversations. So no, no, I already know they are good, we send brief messages, and that everything is flowing, and we're trying to support as much as we can from from where we are. I
Ashley 1:15:42
see. And I wonder what kinds of things have been helpful to you recently, you know, wonder if if meditation itself or if you have found any certain scriptures, or instructions from the Buddha that has been helpful to you?
Bhante Rahula 1:15:58
Well, remembering the the nature of the world is was one of the things is a leap rupee, try the subject, but then later on always finishing with some meta, and compassion also, for us as we were speaking before, not just for the people that is being abused by for the aggressor, also the really the ignorance, they don't know what they're putting the seeds they're planting, and the fruits that they will get the not apparently, so practicing both stabilizing the mind, trying to find ways to support with inspiring also the students to donate something or see, follow the situation in a way that does not shake the mind to the point that we get hopeless. So always keeping our view that things change, and each is his life. And as difficult as the things seem right now, it will also change soon, sooner or later, hopefully soon. And keeping keeping just perspective and sending metta is one of the things that has been helping me a lot to think on the people and try it inside Tu, Tu, Tu feel together and let our friends in, as I mentioned before with brief messages to let them know that we care, and that we are together in this and hopefully some help also can come for that can make a change and wishing for the wisdom of all of us. Yes. So another thing that I see has been very helpful is to do some chanting, it comes to mind but most of it in not just because of the chanting. But because of the meaning of the teaching of the Buddha one one of the Scriptures that I like and keep often close is the metta suta. And then also there is one very beautiful blessing that it is very common to hear in Burma. And our teachers love it I love it because of its meaning and I would like to to offer it with all my heart to all the people hopeful hoping that it brings some space of of reconnection and reconnection with goodness in in in our human nature in beyond any affiliation or idea ideas that we might have. So I'm sure that the teachers that are my teachers were here they will be gladly joined. So remembering all of them and all the teachers in Burma all the people in Burma children, parents, young people or people working people may all of us be well. May all of us continue finding stable point to face whatever difficulty life brings to me watch on to Sokoto to Matteo bhawan Tara yo Suki Tikka you Co Op Wada nasi Lisa nature Mota Pasha chatter o Tama watan t ha you know, sukham alum power to Sabah mangalam Lacan to sama, sama Buddha, no bueno sobre su the mouth to mouth to Sabah mangalam rakan to sama de Saba hamano. Sanders so the bhawan to Mauer to Saba mangalam rock on to sama. sama Sangha no bueno. Salah so tea And the translation of that poly is, may only fortunes be avoided, may all illness be dispelled. May you never meet with dangers, be happy and live long. For those who are respectful of the elders, and the noble ones, for qualities increase, long life, complexion, happiness and strength to the power of all the Buddha's, the power of all the Dharma and the Sangha may hold their bicycle with protective may every blessing come to be megadiverse guard as well, to the power as I remember, I repeat, to the power of all the Buddha's Dharma and the Sangha. mejor with all our all of us and our families, be at ease. So, what am I gonna do? We're gonna we're gonna visit your busy. Diana, yada, yada, yada.
Host 1:21:39
All right, so we were just talking for a few hours before this. So now we might have somewhat of a repeated or continued conversation. We, we just lost power in Myanmar, and our district of Yangon, which isn't all that unusual. And so we're kind of waiting for the power to come back on. So we didn't have the noise of the generator. And here we are. And so welcome from the home to the recording studio. Brenda, was that how you pronounce the name?
Breno 1:22:05
Yeah, actually, the resident is brand new, but many people don't have their raw. So brand is fine.
Host 1:22:12
Yeah, I don't think I do. Burmese language either.
Breno 1:22:16
Nice. Yeah. So thank you very much. It's very good to be here. And, yeah, it's a bit different from outside, because we know you're in a studio closed, but still comfortable.
Host 1:22:29
Yeah. So we have this, this monastery across the street that we help to furnish some rooms, meditators sometimes come in and out of service we provide to help people help meditators that are coming in between courses or pilgrimages to have a pleasant place to stay. So that's where where you've been staying the last few days and getting accustomed to Burmese Buddhist monastic culture and Burmese people you just arrived a few days ago.
Breno 1:22:51
Yeah, exactly. is very good to have things like sorted out before you go on. Because Yeah, when you arrive in the new country is a bit difficult to I don't know, buy some stuff and how to spell and the first word in here is very good, because you have something sorted out you have some friends to speak English with you sometimes. And also, what I find very, very good is that you will have like a scooter driver that you can call and then they can he can talk that takes you to the like market and likes to solve practical stuff. And besides to translating is very, very good to to help you with the subtle stuff. Like, don't wait, like these were like that and stuff like that is very, very helpful in specially in the beginning. Yeah,
Host 1:23:38
yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So you know, one of the reasons I thought it'd be kind of cool to talk is that you I think what you're doing in Myanmar, and where you find yourself is not unsimilar, to a lot of listeners out there, you come from a meditative background, you've always really been interested in, in the Dharma practice in Myanmar, you've had your own meditative practice before. And suddenly, you've landed here in the golden land. And you're, you have this openness of opportunities in front of you that you're trying to parse out, what is it that I can do and where is it located? And what do I actually want to do? Well, what do I want to include in my time here? And as you're kind of going through this process, it's, it's probably something a lot of meditator listeners can identify with thinking, Well, yeah, I'd like to come to Burma to and what would I do with my time. So I think by talking about how you're constructing your own journey in your own time here, it can be something that that meditators in a similar situation can can get some value in thinking about themselves and what they want to do if they eventually come.
Breno 1:24:39
In the beginning. I was not sure because why I came here, you know, because in the past few months, I would say it's like my intuition is a bit strong. So maybe it's not stronger. I just trust more on it. So I decided to come to Burma just today to develop in the path of them. Right. So I was not very sure why and what but one thing that made me realize that this is a good bet for me at the moment is like, I was feeling like I need to try out the tradition of meditation. Right? And, and I think you can find different traditions, I think this is the most important thing of why coming to Burma because in Brazil, of course, you can find some meditation, but we don't have much tradition. Actually. I only know like going to tradition, which is like open to laypeople and others, I don't have much knowledge about it, but maybe it's not open baby doesn't have. But here you can find much more traditions. And also because of the, the Facebook like Burma, Dharma in Burma, and also the blog. And you can find more information about it, right. So this is why I came here. And also another thing is, in the past few months, I was experiencing the benefits of metta in my life. And I saw that there is a meta retreat and stuff like that, right? Sorry, I totally different from the tradition, I came from, like 15 days focusing on meta, which is very important for me. So I think that I really need it, right. So when I came across this, I just saw that, without planning, I have booked a flight, which was on time. And without planning, I could apply for this retreat, even though it was late, let's say like this, but I still they still have got a place. So I think this more or less like this like to take advantage of the time that your mind is more relaxed and more. Yeah, it's more quiet. And to feel that intuition, which comes and to trust in it, and then go for it.
Host 1:26:56
So you're talking about the champion Yang metta retreat that you got into and yeah, that's it's a really hard retreat to get into they actually, they they post the enrollment, something like nine months or something before the retreat begins. And they even have an announcement of when the enrollment is going to be posted, just so it's fair for everyone. And then it's usually filled, sometimes within 24 hours of just posting the enrollment. So I think it was really fortunate that so late and hearing about it, you somehow got got into it. So really good timing.
Breno 1:27:26
Yeah, I think this is the thing, right? Like something that the time you start working when you're not planning. So when I see those signs, I just decide to follow in.
Host 1:27:36
Right. And so you were talking about coming from coming from a meditative practice in Brazil, and then wanting to come to me and more to expand on the types of practices and experiences you could have here. What was the one meditation tradition? Are you coming from? Yeah,
Breno 1:27:53
I used to practice in my, actually, I still practice on the Ganga tradition. I've done my first course in Brazil in 2017. And I was in such a big need of meditation, that straightaway of my first course I was already meditating. And I came back to the course like two months later to serve, and to see the second course. And then since then I'm meditating every day, like I was really needed, I was thirsty of it. And also, I have done this in England. And then I came back to Brazil. And then I inverted like long term service in the center, like I was meditating, applying it in my daily life, not only meditating when I see it, but in the day life, right, when we try to apply it, when you are talking to someone, when you are facing a very hard moment when you are facing not very pleased, at moment, like a very delicious food, you try to meditate. And then a at some point, I was thinking that I was I was not very, let's say, a green with a few points of the the way that people are doing this approach of meditation, even though I see very good benefits of it. I think I was like, getting in a point that I don't really agree with this point of maybe with this view, right. And but you know, I don't meditate for a long time. But in probably I don't know much about meditation, but I just decided to go and try another tradition and to see how is it in the in other countries, right? We're pleased to have been doing this for a longer time and when these approaches more included within the culture. So I think the idea is, after having this experience with other views, and with all the approach, I think I can look at this tradition again. And even if I not agree with these views that I didn't agree before, maybe I agree, maybe even if I don't, is like I can maybe accept it more, right And, and see the different the benefits of it the benefits of all the approach, right, but just to try different points of view are different to see the same thing from a different angle.
Host 1:30:12
Where did the idea come to start with metta to do to enroll in an intensive, metta course,
Breno 1:30:20
actually is interesting, because in the very beginning matter was me was very frustrating, because in the first course he say, I think in the seventh day, when they go into tradition, he said in a speech that in the 10th day, we are going to experience something like a bomb. And I was very looking for it, you know, to see what is this I'm facing so much suffering, I left displays and cessation. And then in the test day, it was just, like wishes and stuff like that, right? So it was very frustrating, I think, because they just didn't know what's better. And after the course, and after meditating, I started to understand a bit more, what's the matter, right. And when I came to England, I remember in the metadata, they sent a manager a game for all the because in England, they are site with two centers. So a center manager come from the audit, from one side to the other side, in the metadata and did nothing rather than stay quiet, in fact, far away from the, for the demo. And I just saw him and I knew that something very special was happening there, right. And I didn't know what but I knew something special was I was feeling something special, right. And I felt very much inspired by that person. And afterwards, coming back to Brazil, and meditating and everything I somehow I start developing metta, right, developing this practice. Even when I was in England with, like, doing metal to some a couple friends, which was in a different time. And I didn't know the metal was growing within myself, right. And then I was starting weaknesses, the benefit of it, and the benefits of matter is not only for myself, it's for everyone, right? And this is what makes very, very special. And also, after very strong, intense meditative hours. I tried, I start trying just to do matter afterwards, even though Yeah, just after a meditative intense feelings, I just started doing matter. And it was very, very beneficial, right? From one hand, I was feeling like I come from a war, I was very tiring and exhausting. And that's it. And then I started meditating using metaphor, time, some time, it was fresh again, like, life is sweet. Again, let's smile, right? And it was very good. And also, afterwards, when I came back, and I was in my daily life, not only the retreat, but my daily life, I was using meta, and it was proven to be very, very beneficial in the daily life, right? So I really felt like, I need to develop more on meta.
Host 1:33:10
Right? Right. So I think where you find yourself in Myanmar is kind of like a meditator who you have experienced, you're not totally new to it, you know, the benefits, you know, the discipline, you know, the, the requirements of, you know, how meditation is framed, and how you have to approach it. And yet you also have this openness, for the experience and for respect for different different places of practice different approaches that you're seeking to have. And you have time to practice as well you have you referenced before recording that you you have a maximum time available or something like seven eight months, where you can devote yourself to some type of living and Dhamma practice and you're trying to figure out exactly what that is if you're if it's going to be in Myanmar the entire time and if it is in Myanmar, which which kind of places and traditions you you want to go to, to learn from and it's really an exciting time is what what I'm getting at is that this is a place where you, you have so much potential in terms of what's being offered from you know, study to practice, from city to countryside, being with other foreigners or just being you know, really in a culturally Burmese Buddhist context or even an ethnic context, you know, shine or POW or or mon or Rakhine, or other type of ethnic Buddhist practice. And it's kind of like the whole, the whole world, the whole country here is open for being able to construct how you want to frame your own spiritual path and Buddhist learning experience. And so I think what's really interesting and for meditators, especially that, you know, are thinking of coming here and thinking of doing the same thinking of leaving making a big leap in their life to You know, take a moment To leave what it is they're doing and invest in this kind of spiritual growth. The question then comes, how in the world do you figure out what to do? How do you figure out you have all these possibilities? All these things you could be doing? What mental process are you going through to figure out? what it is you want to practice? How long where to go to narrow all this possibility into all this potential reality into one thing that you're actually going to be? Obviously, you might not just do one thing, but one thing at a time, you can't do more than one thing at a time. So choosing among all these different options, and going forth with one of them, how are you going through that mental process?
Breno 1:35:40
One thing that comes to my mind that when I was in one of the courses I was serving in one Indian friend is Indian in his living in, in England for a while, and a very sweet guy. And he told me that is very special when you have time to meditating to meditate. And also when you have the intention to meditate together, right? Because it never is not always that it comes together. So right now, I feel right. Very grateful. Because of past experience, I have saved a bit of money, so I can live without work for a while. And I think this is very special. Not many people can do this. And I just decided to do this to develop, right? Because I think to do to go into the meditation path, it brings much more benefits rather than Korea and everything else. Right. So I just focus what is priority and priority in my opinion, is meditation. Otherwise, in my opinion, at the moment, it can't be done. Like only one thing, right? I can go with my priority with meditation, but also important to do other things, for example, hobbies and like to help me to take it easy, right? No, don't go so serious. This one thing that I used to do. And that's one thing that I think Matt is going to help me with,
Host 1:36:56
right being easier.
Breno 1:36:57
If it easy and take it easy. Don't go so hard. And you know, don't push yourself so much. And or not push yourself at all. Maybe I can get there. And sure, so it makes very clear that matter is important for me. Right? So rather than this, there is all their opportunities. So I think it's very important to talk with people who came to Burma before. Because even I mentioned before the blog, and the web, the Facebook page, there's much information there, right, so you can find yourself in confusion.
Host 1:37:34
This is the Facebook page and blog, which I've run for several years. That's the one you referring to. Yeah, right. Right. Right.
Breno 1:37:40
It's great. It's very good, especially the very beginning of the Facebook page, it says that there are many tradition here, especially this so you you narrow down already. So that's very good. Although there is a lot of information there, right? And I think it's very important to be with yourself and to know more or less what do you need, right? Though I are very, like going through a time that you are lazy that you need to push yourself or are you pushing yourself and you need to take it easy, right? And then rather than this right, rather than be aware of deeply What do you need, it's very important to talk with someone who has done this path before right for as FYI, I've talked to Joe and other people that he put me in contact with and I think this is very important because those people they they've been here and probably they have been in the same kind of confusion let's say it may be helpful you know?
Host 1:38:45
Yeah, right. So you're doing the metal retreat and then what thoughts do you have on how you're going to construct your time after that because you have a real kind of open window for anything you want to do next and how will you make that decision?
Breno 1:38:57
Definitely the the tradition I'm not sure how to pronounce it but one tradition which is focused on taking it easy,
Host 1:39:06
maybe you can Yes, I think we talked about this just before the interview show you man or say a deputation Nia I don't know if I might not be exactly the right character his characterization to say is the tradition that just takes it easy, but I they work this is a tradition that that observes the mind and into new personnel. So it observes the mental going ons of the mind and the sixth sense doors. Yeah.
Breno 1:39:35
I think the I think this is a very important one why because I I used to push myself so hard, and now I need to still meditate still do effort, but without pushing myself. I think these what is what I need to learn, right? And maybe I I ended up doing a not very good description, and please forgive me. This is not my own. language in the end of the day, right, and you just heard about this place for the first time, a few hours ago. So that's it, you focus in a kind of meditation tradition in which you can do a for without in pushing yourself, I think this is what I would like to learn. And yeah, I think this is the most important for me at the moment.
Host 1:40:24
Right? And what how are you finding the role of culture? in your practice? Like, are you there's always the question of how culture fits into the greater practice? And what is your level of interest in engaging to some extent in Burmese culture, versus just kind of being really practice and spiritual oriented? And just going in that direction alone? How are you balancing these two factors?
Breno 1:40:47
Yeah, actually, there is a the first barrier, which is the language right, not many Burmese speaking English. So I would love to be in thought and better integrate with the Burmese people. But I think it can be really done until you have some level of skill development in the Burmese language. So yeah, I really like to come and integrate with people, but there is this barrier. So I'm just allowing the time that my may be settled out here for a while when I if I take really take the decision to settle down here, then eventually I will integrate with people because for me, that's very important. This is one of the important things like I came here to four.
Host 1:41:32
Yeah, and you've already you've only been here a few days, but you've already been committing yourself to Burmese study. Yeah. Yeah. Alright, so how's that going?
Breno 1:41:40
The sounds right. I think if you come in learn Burmese, at some point, just be aware that the intonation is very important. Like if you say, ah, is one thing, if you say, Ah, you might be something, which is the opposite. sense. So I don't know, I think is a very hard language. Much rather than harder than Portuguese? Because I think what makes our language hard is the amount of vowel sound that you can use it in English has less vowel sound in Portuguese. And Burmese, it seems to have even much more than Portuguese. So it makes it I think it's one of the points which make the language hard. But I think it's possible, right? I think the thing is, when you find out a place, like a comfortable place to stay, and you allow time to to learn, I think that's possible. And maybe you can say much better because you are very good in Burmese. So
Host 1:42:40
I try to be but I've always to go as well. Have you been able to communicate with people even in small ways in the few days since you've been here?
Breno 1:42:48
Yeah. And like with a few words, and also with body language, right? Because I think when you come and you allow yourself to be present, you understand the conversation. And you know, just with body language, you know what people are talking about more or less, and you can make some intervention and talk and also, sometimes very practical stuff like NRP nama LA. And just to memorize a few words of reference, and just to memorize the name of the dishes, right, so you can go anywhere and ask, for example, the name of the drink positive a positive taco pizza.
Host 1:43:26
What's your favorite dish?
Breno 1:43:28
Oh, man. It's a tomato,
Host 1:43:34
tomato.
Breno 1:43:34
Tomato, like the rice with egg inside. On top of it.
Host 1:43:39
Can you can you order your food in Burmese yet?
Breno 1:43:41
Yeah. demento na petto without Tito. Change it and change up. Right, please? Yeah. Yeah. And the food is very, very good. I don't know why I think. Yeah, the way people do is very delicious. I don't know whether is very healthy or not. Oil. Yeah. But it's very, very delicious. I think this is one of the very good points of the tradition here. The cooter.
Host 1:44:12
Yeah. And speaking of culture, so what have you learned about Burmese culture Burmese people? Since since you've been here and interacting these last few days?
Breno 1:44:20
casual, very casual, you go around, you find a friend. You go with them? Like,
Host 1:44:26
easy to meet people. Yeah, they're
Breno 1:44:28
easy to meet. And then you go along with people and you talk a lot and talk. I'll be just like without really planning your time, right. This time. I will do this. This time. I will do this. I think it doesn't have too much.
Host 1:44:41
Right? It's just kind of happened as a flow.
Breno 1:44:44
Yeah. As a flow. You wake up you'll come out from your home and then sometimes I used to go to the shop of the scooter driver. And sometimes he just find me on the way right he's going somewhere and if I come and I jump in, in the middle of the traffic, I jump in a scooter and we go somewhere. And we think about it or maybe you just don't think about it. And I'm a little bit used to because they came I came, the place I came from in Brazil is more or less like this, right? It's like, let it happen, let it happen. I don't come from a very big city like San Paolo I come from, I was living in a small village in a state in which I think people are more relaxed and taking not so rushed life. So I think I was more or less used to this and actually I really like I really appreciate this way of life.
Host 1:45:35
Right? So when you think about the kind of spiritual experience you want here and the weeks or months that you'll have in the country, do you do you have an idea of of what kind of practice you want to do not not in terms of the tradition per se, but in terms of you know, one can study one can meditate you can you can be involved in social monasteries and education, you can be in secluded place you can be with foreigners, isolated from foreigners and more with in in a local rural Burmese environment. Do You Do you have any idea of the kind of preference you have of what taking advantage of this Burmese Buddhist culture and monastic environment, what what kinds of things you're you're appealing to you and your spiritual journey here.
Breno 1:46:23
I think to be involved with people is more like my personality, right, rather than be isolated or so on. So to be integrate with people to be involved. But I don't know in which way maybe working as a volunteer, or maybe just set up some ways to for me to share my knowledge, right. So I'm used to teach how to dance. So I think maybe it's a bit dedicated here, because I don't see so much intensity in this. We're allowed to dance. Yeah, maybe not.
Host 1:46:55
But laypeople. Why not? Yeah.
Breno 1:46:59
Integrated? Maybe
Host 1:47:00
they actually Iran. Yeah, it's becoming a modern society. So a lot of opportunities.
Breno 1:47:04
Yeah. And maybe teaching, like teaching how to speak English for some people, you know, but definitely, I want to be like in with social interaction. But I'm not sure yet. What kind of social interaction I am going to deal with. Right. Right.
Host 1:47:22
Has there been anything that surprised you so far? Being here? That wasn't as you expected?
Breno 1:47:29
Not really. I think. I wasn't expecting the full service. So good.
Host 1:47:40
Okay. Yeah. Sexual pleasures.
Breno 1:47:43
Because I came from Thai and everything talks about Thai food. Right, right. Right. And actually, Thai food is good. But when I came here, so that's very, very good. Like, this was unexpected, right? This was unexpected. Because to be in, in a place that the traffic is all crazy and stuff like that. This is what somehow expected. And also I have some experience in isn't back in Brazil, right. So there's more, more or less okay.
Host 1:48:09
Yeah, well, great. I'm wishing you Well, in your experience. Is there anything else you want to share here?
Breno 1:48:13
Yeah. And I hope you're everyone which who is listening? Just follow the calls, right? Because sometimes we have a call to meditate to the deeds, and sometimes we don't really understand. And when it comes to the intellectual side of the mind, it brings a lot of confusion, I think. But oftentimes, not sometimes we just have an experience in which we see very clear what we think what we would like to do, right. And the thing is to develop, we need to have the trust, right. And the trust, it starts in trust ourselves in our intuition, our Yeah, in, like, instinct or something like this. And just, that's what I'm trying to do. Just like trying to follow the intuition that comes when my mind is seems to be more quiet, you know, that kind of intuition that comes like clearly. And I think this is a very, very good thing to do. So if you feel like you have the desire to come and experience and develop, right, I think this is very good. So I hope this talk can be some way beneficial for you.
Host 1:49:29
Yeah. Okay. Great. Thanks. And best of luck with the rest of your journey and hope to hear more on the other side. Yeah, thank you very much, Senegal. Damn. Big Bob by the bed. Chair. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this show. I understand that this is an enormously difficult time for many people these days, myself included. And just the mere fact of staying informed is helping to keep a focus on this pertinent issue. And the only way that we can do our job of continuing to provide this content at this very critical time is through the support of generous donors, listeners like yourselves. So if you found this episode of value and would like to see more shows like this on the current crisis, please consider making a donation to support our efforts. Either monthly pledges or one time donations are fully appreciated. And all funds go immediately to the production of more episodes like this one. Thank you deeply in advance and best wishes at this time. 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