Transcript: Episode #64: From Academic to Activist on the Run
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Han Htoo, which appeared on July 21, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:30
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Han Htoo 01:28
Hey a good day okay, my name is had to come by people called me chest to hand to and I I came from a Braemar, ordinary middle class family from a small town in central Bama and my family sells robes for monk, Buddhist monks and they also sells a wide variety of other products. One of which is books or books on different topics, mostly books related to Buddhism, Buddhist teachings and the other books included. So, I was born in Yangon, but I moved to Ireland, my hometown, when I was just one month old and I grew up in I grew up playing with friends reading books, and I just lived in Oakland for more than 10 years I would say I'm I moved to Yangon when I was 14. And but I moved alone. I stayed together with my relatives in Yangon. And I passed my matriculation exam. And I after that joined the Yangon University of economix. And in first year, just since the first year, I joined the Student Union, the Young University of economix Student Union and, and I became a quite active member of the union and I I participated in a lot of social and student related and political movement by the by my union, as well as the larger Confederation called the university student unions. And I worked in different positions. And I I ended up being vice president of the Union. One I was in the final year. I studied management and walking in the Student Union made me closer to the political circles of the country. One of my uncle was an activist, student activist back in 1988. And I inherited that activism comes from my uncle. And I became involved in politics and political activism. Since I was in my university, and I, I was also connected with the young School of political science, where I studied politics. Since I would say, my second year of the university, then I graduated, and I, I walked a bit, I think, for a year in the business industry, I was a sales executive for a for fashion company, then I quitted when I found I was a political animal, and what I was supposed to be doing is to study politics, studying politics. So, I quit my job. And I, I joined I joined the Yangon School of political science, the why SBS again, and, and I joined most of their classes. I and I became a more connected with political activists, and politicians in Myanmar, as well as political science academics abroad. And I worked for two PhD, DFL candidate at the University of Oxford, as their research assistant that for more than one and a half year, and I was fortunate enough to be admitted to the Masters, to a master's program at Oxford, and I went to Oxford for my masters. And I came back in the COVID crisis. And I finished my Master's in Myanmar, then I work for the Carter Center as a election observer for the 2020 general elections, then, after the election observation mission, I decided to take a break and look things around and such for wives what suits for me, then I applied a position at an NGO. And my first day as this new job was there, February 1, and I, I have a meeting at nine in the morning. And these were just meetings, orientation meetings of the orientation week, the first week, the entire week, was supposed to make me familiar with the organization and getting to know people. And at 6pm, I was a woke app by my girlfriend, she said, they really did. They did. They did the coop, and I check on my phone and found it that the relevant leaders, the President, the state's counselors, and a number of activist and the other political leaders were arrested.
Host 09:53
Yeah, thank you for that. So one of the things I want to go back to in learning a bit more about your background. Is you mentioned in your university days becoming more involved in political science and politics and connecting with people from past movements in Myanmar. And one of the things that I've observed is that during these 2010 reformed periods where the younger generation, which you were a part of Gen Z, and such, grew up without this experiencial and visceral understanding of how cool these the military was, they'd heard stories, but they grew up in a different time. And so, during since February 1, they have unfortunately, had to find out through their own experience what their older brothers and sisters and parents, aunts and uncles grandparents had told them. But this has really come as a terrible, terrible shock and awakening for nightmare, really, for many of these young activists. However, during these periods of reform, when things were relatively becoming more open, more safe, more free, more modern, you seem like your consciousness was different.
Han Htoo 11:09
Um, I think people like me, were, in some sense, a pessimist a bit of one we talk about these relatively greater freedom and a greater liberalization in any of the aspects of Myanmar's life. So what we weren't aware of was that differentiation of justice was not a broad pout. And it was even sort of a knot on the table off the table. And we weren't aware of these, and we look at the way ahead, and we look, we looked at the possibilities and impossibilities a how, and when we can make a even more greater freedom, our absolute, not absolute, if we say is if we say anything is not absolute. But if I hope you get a sense of what I'm saying, we were looking at more democracy and and more, more freedom and more liberalisation and less and the departure, potential departure of the reserve domains, the military occupied, and the old establishment still enjoys. A. So we were conscious in the sense that we have been pessimists. And we have been looking for the ways and we we enjoy but we just took the freedom, the partial freedom we enjoy as chess as a step towards a greater freedom.
Host 13:46
Right, so as you reference this kind of pessimism that you had, did you feel in any way like out of place or out of step with your friends and your contemporaries? Who were perhaps were more enjoying waking up to this new kind of society being formed? Did Did you feel that you carried some somewhat of a pessimistic attitude that those around you didn't really understand or adapt?
Han Htoo 14:15
And it was it was not like I was a complaining and people were so contempt and happy with the things we had caught in those days. It was just that people were just so busy with that. The liberalization, so many opportunities came up and so many things to learn. And then an our generation a, I would say the generation a that a could be called You'd in those 10 years, 10 years. So we were just so busy with a catching up opportunities, trying to be not missed out by the events that are taking place. We were just ran in touch, still the my cycle, my circle who were a chest like I said in some sense pessimists were looking forward to or, or discussing things that we are not contempt with this situation, we cannot let this situation consolidated itself. This is what I had to describe about the social scenario. We were just the people were just the young people, especially, we're just so busy because the older generations we're not a sort of catching up the world, and its technology in the new opportunities, step by step. They were just these doors were just open abruptly in 2010. And then people left in these opportunities.
Host 16:43
So would you say that you were surprised by the coup happening?
Han Htoo 16:47
I would say so. We, we we talk about that potential, the possibilities. My my friends abroad, and my friends in Myanmar asked me and we discussed about a these looming threat of the coop. And I had to I have to admit that my answer was that a In short, the coop was unlikely. I thought the relations shipped between the end of the civilian government and the military was just deteriorated by the election results. And the large fraud by a lie debt fraud, like a last by the military, a regarding the elections process and the constitutional amendment process, the NLD initiated in 2019. I just thought that they were just having a downtime in terms of their relationships. And the military was raising the temple unnecessarily bad to her. I don't I didn't think it is a rational move for the military to stage a coop. It was it was a surprise I a on a on the last night of January, I didn't actually think about anything related to the coop.
Host 18:51
Right? Right. So looking back at it now. And of course we say hindsight is 2020. You look at historical analysis, there's ways to trace connected lines of future events, knowing on what those events turned out to be that in real time. We're not as known because there's so many potential realities happening in real time, and only one of them actually turns out, but in looking at how things turned out that there was a coup and you look back at the previous years, the previous decade, you referenced that you yourself had some concerns about greater liberalisation that wasn't taking place. What factors do you see leading to this coup taking that if certain things had happened a certain way in the last decade, if certain concerns that you had had been taken care of maybe we wouldn't have gotten to this situation another another way to say this is going in if you were able to travel back in time, is there anything that could have been done to prevent this from happening and prevent these conditions from arising?
Han Htoo 19:57
I don't think so. I I hate it. And I hate to hear the experience any, any bit of the atrocities after the coop had happened. But but with these ridiculous calculations, and, and rationals irrational, a mindset of the military, I don't think a coupe is a, I think the coop is inevitable. It is not an absolute sense. Of course, we can, we can get around the coop, but all we have to do is just to give up a thing, things we can potentially have. But it is not enough, we also would have to give up the things we have already had an our opportunities politically. It is a it is just a disk, like portrayed in these deteriorated relations between the civilian government and the and the military. A, A the end of the shutdown initiated the constitutional constitutional amendment process, which I think I taught a was impossible from the start. But they and we did it and they failed. And then they just a held the elections. And they won. And by a only by a greater percentage than the last elections in 2015. And, and the commander in chief may online was a phase in a retirement a in July 2021. And they just did the coop. I don't think there was anything we can avoid in that process. to, to, to make the coop not to happen. If If I weigh a sort of a creator, a or, or if I were the orchestrating the opposition forces against the military, I would have done more, even more stronger things that the NLD had done in the past several years. They made concessions. They, they they let their failure a compromised to have a better relationships with the military. So this is my answer.
Host 23:29
Right. So like what exactly you mentioned that you would have taken strong reactions, if you were in the NLD and not have made some moral compromises. Can you be a little more specific? What moral compromises did they make? And what stronger actions would you have liked to have seen them take?
Han Htoo 23:49
It is a very simple answer. And two simple answer is just not letting your values compromised. They are the 10s of politicians who I admire and who I respect in the NLD and the other party's that's a contested in the elections under the 2008 constitutions. B ut I I would say I am a bit too idealistic. A I can afford because I'm young. So I just think any actions that we do and the 2008 constitution is just letting our values compromised. It was it was I I am in a sense, I am I feel a shitty to say this, I feel in a sense a happy that the coop happened because it prove that these compromising ways didn't work. I It is my simple answer.
Host 25:22
Going back to your work in 2000 10s, you had referenced that you were closely associated with a number of previous activists and 88 and 2007 others that had, in previous moments of turmoil had tried to make changes and push for more open society. So can you share a little about your relationship with them? What were their views about how things were progressing in 2000 10s? By being close to them, talking to them, learning from them? What did you gain from them at that time? What insight Did you see into a period of Burmese history that you weren't necessary, necessarily alive or Cognizant for? Yeah,
Han Htoo 26:06
so, um, I was close with these generations, the generations of 1988 1996, then, and 2007, these revolutions in 1988 96, and all seven, were just sprang out of student movement. So, so the lead protesters, the a top activist, and the bottom atavist, all the atavist not all the soft costs are what just student union leaders and members. And so, naturally, I was in the Student Union in those days, and I became associated with these people and our work together, and work together in a sort of protests and petitions campaigns, and Memorial ceremonies, and, and so on. So, so a, from a retrospective point of view, I, I, I don't think we were all the way not able to work toward a meaningful change, a meaningful progress. What we were seeing a was just a more power transfer to the civilian government, the NLD government, which in itself is a miracle, and, and imaginable, some seven, eight years ago. But we were just playing in that game, the limited games and, or wish rules were created by the old establishment. And, and we just didn't have the just these older generations didn't have a domain, the way they can work in a things were just a sort of a fairy activist a like domains and the parliamentary the former politics. So I would say none of these were and to the to, to better democracy, equality, democracy and greater freedom that we all long for. So, so these were the situation of these days. What we really need to date is people's action, social, social activism and always united and determined against the arrangement proposed by the old establishment a, in which they reserved a their interest for eternity.
Host 30:01
It seems like that social activism and awareness, if it wasn't taking place in the general populace before February 1, it seems like it's arisen since.
Han Htoo 30:12
I would say so. And, and even more than that. Some of if not all, our values were way forgot. And in those years, like human rights, freedom of absolute freedom of speech, like you can, you cannot cross the red lines, you can retain your human rights as long as they as long as you don't challenge a these interest. Or, like, I think the Rohingya crisis is best, the best example, we just forgot what we struggled for, and the certain values were forgotten.
Host 31:12
Right. When you talk about free speech, one of the things that comes to mind that caught my attention, and I've referenced this on other episodes, a few years ago, you might have recalled this if it caught your eye. There was an art exhibition where they were collecting pieces from various local artists to highlight I think it was for Earth Day and to highlight pollution. And some local Burmese artists had drawn a painting of the historical Buddha wearing a gas mask. And behind him, the city of young gone that was overwhelmed by the air pollution, to indicate that if the Buddha were to come today to a Buddhist country would barely be able to breathe because the pollution gotten so bad. And the outcry of in general that came from the population was one of fury and rage for the insult that it had been the insult of depicting the Buddha in this way. And we're calling for, you know, the picture to be immediately banned to be destroyed that no one should be able to share it online. And even that the artists themselves should be arrested and faced penalty for doing this under religious law. And I remember being stunned by this and part if someone feels that this art is offensive, or degrading or anything great. That's an opinion that is very valid to share and very valid to investigate speaking as someone who came to me and Mar for meditation for a reverence of the Buddha's teachings, I definitely sensitive to hearing about how this figure is portrayed respectfully, and and then everything else. But what struck me was that the discussion over this picture and it's possible offensiveness was the immediate reaction was not one of discussion or debate or intellectual curiosity and trying to sort out, you know, how do we as a society deal with, with our creative expression combined with our religious faith, or for at least for those that are Buddhist in Myanmar, but the overwhelming reaction was, we need to not talk about this, we need to not see this, this needs to be removed and destroyed immediately. And the artist who did this needs to face consequences for it. This happened just a couple of years after the state censor had resigned his position. So it was almost like the state censor resigns his position, there's a freedom of speech in Myanmar. And then many of the Burmese people themselves are decrying that, they want some of that freedom of speech that was just allowed taken away. And, and this to me, this was very saddening, because I, my my advocacy was not in the, in the justification of why this picture was appropriate or, you know, why it should be shown in public places. My advocacy was, let's talk about this publicly, let's air these ideas and be able to to explore ideas of pollution and religion and respect and everything else. But the immediate reaction was not one a discussion or debate, it was one of the people encouraging a censorship and punishment.
Han Htoo 34:42
Yes, I remember that story. And I was also saddened by that development and the unfolding the particular way the issue was unfolded But I was not surprised. The people were just not ready, I would say, and the, and the politicians and the leading minds, were not doing enough to make people ready for, for things to come together with greater freedom of expression or, or in general, greater freedom it is a better understood with the fact that the people who are living I mean alive in Myanmar rarely had any experience of society, like, unless they want abroad and enjoy the freedom, but these very, very tiny proportion of the people. And, and, and only very proportion of these people made their way back to him. So, these people never including me, didn't really experience the Freedom, freedom of expressions. And then the consequence is that they were not able to tolerate they, they, they haven't they were not like a train for democratic tolerance. And the production's we're not doing enough and still rights, the censorship was added in early 2000 10s. But, still, they are popular sentiments, which are hidden, but once ignited, it is very combustible and, and the politicians, even even those who claim to be on the side of democracy, and greater freedom, where relevant and and they were, they were like, before they became a parliamentary politicians, they were just citizens. They were just they just grew in these successive dictatorships. And they were just not ready, how to up optimally mediates the situation and, and come things down on the one hand and let the good things. Then, on the other hand, they were just not ready for that. Even some, I would say, intrinsically against these, these ideas of freedom of expression, one it compromise, the values, the prejudice they hold.
Host 39:00
Yeah, I think that's right. And I think you're hitting on a really important point, differentiating those who had experienced outside the country and those who didn't, then going back to the Rohingya crisis, I think this hits on some of the reasons and conditions behind that I'd be interested to get your take. My feeling was that those rural Burmese which make up most of the country that were taken in by this crisis, I it's hard for me to really blame them. They feel they feel like another set of victims, they went from warp speed in terms of having very access to any technology or anything to suddenly all having smartphones and Facebook news and everything else and to go I mean, even in a modern, complicated democracy like ours, we had our own problems with fake news and with Russia's interference and the election of From, we had our own problems with that even with as as, as high as the education and everything is in our own country. And so, and even with the technology not going as fast in Myanmar. And so for much of the rural population, it seems something of a perfect storm in terms of how they were taken in by this and what access they really had outside of the news, they were getting to independently verify or critical think about what it was they were hearing, it just came at them in this new form in a way that that seem to be verified in some way. But for me, the more of the concern and the confusion, and even the frustration I had was with the smaller circle of Burmese and including some of my friends who I knew personally, at the time going through this, that spoke English that had been abroad that had foreign friends that knew about foreign websites knew about different ways to get facts and check facts. And as this was breaking out, sometimes I'd see on one of their Facebook posts like okay, well there's, you know, everyone's talking about this, we're in a crisis. And let me just tell you what I think about it. And when I see that, I kind of think, Okay, this is a reasonable person, great, you know, I'm going to check in with them and hear what they have to say, and it's going to be a different take. And every single time it was still fitting into that same narrative and same dynamic. And I was just kind of speechless at this, I really didn't understand how those people who had this greater access to language and culture and information and people and ideas, were not utilizing that and we're fitting just as strongly into that narrative. And I think the thing that most upset and confused me was, that on one hand, if one doesn't accept the narrative of who did what, to whom, and who belongs here, and what sequence of events and what should happen, okay, that's that's one thing, we can leave that aside for a moment. But there's still the concept and the reality of human suffering, that there is there is obvious human suffering that is taking place and whatever the reasons, there is certainly a human response, let alone a kind of Buddhist compassionate response from many of the people I was speaking to have simply not wanting to see suffering and feeling sorry and compassionate the suffering is taking place. And even aside from whatever the set of narrative stories being told, even if one agrees to disagree, there can also just be a simple acknowledgement that one doesn't want to see a human suffering like this taking place.
Han Htoo 42:55
It is a an interesting thing, you said that some of these people can be a victims in their own ways. You can just apply that concept too much to the to understand the people who are accessibles and exposed and more than it is, it is just that a lie I have heard a thing saying a like a there are they are like plant that there are trees that are planted on your ground, but you can only possibly remove the trees that above the ground, but not the root, but the root also grew. So, so it is not to understand and forgive and just accept things as normal. But what I would propose is a way to understand the phenomenon, not the people that have I just think many of them the the middle class or upper middle class people educated young, and more than these people are exposed to the environment, the atmospheres, that exercise freedom of expression, freedom of thought, but Unless they are, they are conceptually doing it. What I mean is unless they and not only mirroring merely letting the values the new values imposed on you also, unless you are literally pushing hard to take out these rules, you you can still be more than an open minded and in in some sense, but in some sense the the hypocrisy can be seen. I think this is a way to understand these phenomena phenomenon. And like I said, if we we use your concept of like the the unexposed or rule people for attempts, if we use that concept too much we can we can understand what is happening, but not that I can understand and relate and accept it as acceptable.
Host 46:38
Yeah, the quote from that that really sticks in my mind as I remember reading this report of a farmer in some rural place, who had only gotten Facebook in the last year. And he said something that was that was stunning, then reviewing and also tragic. It was some quote like, you know, I, I never had realized that we had a Muslim problem in this country, I had never seen anything to worry about or anything dangerous there. But then when I started reading Facebook and inform me about what the danger really was, now, I understand it. And I'm very thankful that I was able to hear this information. And that quote, was just so tragic, because this is someone without who it seems, has not had great access to technology before and to understanding where the news is coming from and the purpose of that news, and had not had any reason before to have certain thoughts or fears or take actions on those. But through this perfect storm of the information coming on to source which was all very new, it had manufactured and fabricated in him a feeling that this was coming from some verified source, and therefore, he had to respond mentally in some way to what he thought was accurate. And this was very different from those people that I knew that were also hearing the same thing but had many, many different tools, as well as previous experiences, to be able to be critically minded and engage in different ways that a farmer like this, as he was referring to his quote, might not have at his disposal.
Han Htoo 48:23
I think when you were first talking about the farmer, I was thinking that he denies that the atrocities were happening, but it seems to you that it is more of a problem of knowledge, I think the more important and and even larger problem is the prejudice and the bias that make you take things seriously. The prejudice made different distance in human relations. And the distance in human relations cannot can like have a really important effect on how we think of certain events. I think the lack of information also make this distant in human relations. He cannot really relate but still prejudice. In my opinion, the prejudice walks more a prenup predominantly these made people to, like discard things like unimportant, or even annoying
Host 50:26
to hear, I want to move on to the coup to what's been happening since and what your involvement has been. You reference waking up on February 1 morning with the shocking news from your girlfriend, and you also reference the orientation week that you're supposed to have in your company. Of course, everything worked out very, very differently for you and for everyone else. And you had mentioned previously to me that you ended up becoming involved with an organization that came to be known as the Burma spring front for federal democracy that was founded together with other students, Student Union activists, leaders from your your student days and for alumni from those who have been concerned about these issues at a prior time, can you share a bit about what this organization was founded to do and what activities it's been doing since
Han Htoo 51:26
it's just a in three hours that I know of the coop what's happening, I tested in the group a messenger group which was founded to coordinate in the the COVID-19 volunteering activities of our Student Union alumni group, I had a meeting for two, I would say several meetings in the coming days coming several days and weeks with these people and we organized protest and we organized some odd walks, we arrange construction, a ladder and scraped and to to draw a huge gravity and the minicon cross over a picture of three fingers salute and we protest the other we organize other protest activities. And we we became active and we organized more and more protest we connect with the current university student unions who are still in the university who are still the university students. So, we we became as we used to be sister organization with the USU and and protests, organized, organized protests together with these people, I myself also join with other groups such as a trade union leaders and the GSC and a general strike committees of nationalities who are founded by ethnic people, ethnic atavist. So, I joined these others protest two and one, one we were on the decline of mass protest, I was aware of something that we really needed to solidify the organization and and solidify the our action. So I talked with the prominent members and and they also agree with my idea and the night before I fled Yang Gong I spend at a safe house which was just like an underground headquarters for for the BSF to be a I one day and we found It's the BSF together. And I fled Yangon with the responsibilities of Foreign Relations Officer and a fundraiser. And we continue to organize protests, which we're not safe and massive anymore. But we still did. And we also organize a bulletin called to what it is called to watch. And it was more relevant. And originally it was intended for that PDF, which it has more relevant way, the internet connection was a cut of substantially, people across the country. So many people didn't have the internet connection. And the people were not able to update themselves with the activist, activism news, the protest news, and the news about the atrocities committed by the military. So so we thought, what made the protest widespread and contagious, in the early days was the spread of information. And we just wanted to make sure the information was fluid enough. And we organized that bulletin, we also put a issued online, but in these days, we print it out and make a booklets. And we distributed at a marketplaces at the bus stops. So while we thought there could be people who would not have access to the internet back then. So we're still doing that bulletin. But now, the internet connection was, again, substantially but not universally restored. And people can update. But we still have some other features, like us corner and poems.
Host 57:32
Yeah. So that's really a handful of stuff to take in. There's so much to explore there, you've been quite busy along with everyone you've been working with. The first thing that I want to ask you about is this kind of umbrella unit of bringing these very diverse actors together together in some kind of coalition that you're trying and just to ask about how this went to bring in such diverse groups with perhaps slightly different goals and backgrounds and expectations and what it was like to find a way to all work together, you're obviously representing students, academics, activists, young activists, but then you're coordinating with factory workers, people from trade unions, also, some of the ethnic organizations, non damar, non Buddhists that have had a very different and more difficult experience under the tatmadaw and didn't really have any break during 2000 10s. Also, the milk tea Alliance, this is a outside of me and lard but these are other countries in Southeast Asia that are also pursuing their own freedom and their their have their own movement. So these are these four actors alone, I'm sure there's more than this, but just the students, the trade unions and milk the Alliance and the ethnic groups, these four groups are already quite diverse in terms of their background and possibly expectations as well. So what was it like trying to bring them into one umbrella and and to find a way to work together and to coordinate and to trust.
Han Htoo 59:08
So, it wasn't necessarily an umbrella organization, but but in some sense, we can still call these umbrella organizations. So there is a saying in a in Burmese activism, or politics, we do, we work together where we can work together after the coop. There are so little domains that we a cannot agree upon, but a vast majority of domains actions and demand They were just the same, and we have commonalities, we were not identical. But still, we could make a harmony out of the differences. And, and in a very simple way, I think this is the way we sorted our different things out. And an even in our, in the BSF in the Student Union cycles. They as they are huge differences in, in the perceptions to watch the the coop and and how to get away from it the attitude towards the means how to get away from it. But it These were in the early days. But soon enough, we were able to sorted these differences out. And and we became very clear that some of the tactics were already off the table. So this this would be my answer. Like people, people were so relatable, and united in in these days where we walk and like the way you put these umbrella organization, these general strikes committees.
Host 1:01:59
You spoke a bit ago about one of your motivations and activities early on was information and the role of information of telling people what has been going on what is going on getting that news out there, in written form. So if the internet is cut off, this coincides with basically all independent journalism in Myanmar being declared illegal and not having any outlet for any honest reporting except for state run propaganda. One of the guests I spoke to just recently expressed a concern about how one even finds out what the news is at the stage and talked about, on one hand, you have this state run propaganda that is just spewing out their own version and mistruths of what they want to promote. But then on the other side, you have what she declared as false hopes that there were a number of people that were engaging in wishful thinking magical thinking of what could happen, what might happen, what even what did happen with certain kinds of interpretations of what it means. And that false hope was playing a really damaging role added on to this as well. We've seen more recent examples. And she also expressed this concern of people having potentially inside information about what groups are doing or what's being planned and going and sharing that confidential information in public areas, either to boost one's own credentials as someone with inside information or to feed into this hope, whether it's false hope or otherwise, but in the process of doing so of exposing this not being careful enough, and actually putting people and operations at risk. And so we have this very fast moving dynamic situation of trying to figure out at a very basic level, what is happening and what does it mean, and this has this simple goal. The seemingly simple goal has turned out to be much more complicated Bye, bye these factors. And so what are your thoughts on these dangers and the need and the means of actually acquiring and sharing real, truthful, authentic information that does not put people in danger?
Han Htoo 1:04:32
So a first thing first, I I don't think the information spread by the military, officially through their outlets is not quite a harmful thing because people Whoa, just don't believe it. But still there, there are 10s of false information misinformation, which was vicious spreaded online for some reason, I believe a are our spreadsheets intentionally to create false hope and the group the groups who are responsible to that, I would say the first suspect is the military itself, and the other is the, the scandalous pages on Facebook, which thrives on the engagement and likes, and always struggling to retain these. So, these Miss information, a ownerless Miss information are really hazardous. And this really creates the false hope. And I am pretty much confident that in the years to come, like in 10 years, if I were to ask a what troubled this spring revolution, I would say one of these traveling factors what exactly the false hope this makes people come and give reasons to, to come and not focus on on things that need the focus and not channels the attention afford many time A to the things that desperately need this. So, these are the dangers of false hopes. It was consumed a substantially by by older generations, like the generation of my parents, my uncles and Auntie's, I'm 25. So, these people consume this false information and and fairy it is it is very shocking for me that even even younger generation not even young educated middle class oven youth these people also consumed false hopes and false information a so so but these people let these hazardous things go in soon enough, but any PDS was not soon enough once you consume it you you travel the momentum of the things going so so like a very fast force information is not like that said that tool the people not to go out and protest in the very first day after the coop for a word make the military to really do the coop wish they have already done so. So it was nonsense, but people people still believed it and false hopes like a a very obvious and a straightforward things you said you and was coming the US aircraft carriers are just in the way of combat angles. So but the other false hopes include things like we are we are on the very obvious a win a site. All we just need to do is just to have stamina. With the CDM people, and if they don't go to work for two more weeks, they are done. They mean the military, they are done. So, this kind of false hopes, not not super obvious, hard to prove, but still in, in deep analysis, deep enough analysis nonsense. So, so, I would say this way, this has been hazardous. But the last thing the top thing you say, people seeing things just to make good impressions and to make themselves look better and more participatory in the process. I, I witnessed personally these incidences either online or both online and in the physical war, but, these might have connections with the false hopes, but I cannot really connect with it, but it is still harmful in itself, that one thing, they are very harmful for the first person, the very person who leaked that information, whether it is true or not, it is super dangerous to tell things to, to an unnecessary people, I don't mean some people are less important, but people who doesn't need to hear that information and also saying things which are not necessary to be exposed, these ports have risk first on the first person, the person who leaked this information and, and the sockets they are involved in and the activities, the sockets were doing. And, and potentially, of course, the but distantly, to the who coordinated efforts and, and the general populace but still distant, but to a in a systematic and very impactful ways.
Host 1:13:01
Right, so you have all of these factors, making it more difficult to just find out the basic information of what's going on. And of course, the fact that overnight independent journalism has basically been declared illegal and that reporters are We are at equal risk and quite possibly more risk than the average person, how does one go about getting any real information?
Han Htoo 1:13:30
I think it is not super hard to to be a properly informed and informed enough it is I in my in my opinion, what you all need is just just some basic sense of the information consumption online, you just need to be aware of certain things, they are they are signals that these hazardous information, whether these are true or not, a contain on the you you can you can have a lamb in your head, when you find these signals and you just discard that information. And, and and for my position a meaning one who is involved in a enough but still not involved in so many domains. And so many things happening out there, did you you also a need to control yourself that you don't need to know all the information and it is even better Dangerous a two to go for extra miles for the information that you don't necessarily need to know. That is that is my, my way of doing things. I just don't ask things a if i a really, if I don't really need. Yes.
Host 1:15:28
Right. Right. So getting back to some of the activities that you've been involved in with the firmest bank front and some of the work that you were doing, you mentioned that eventually your activism in this organization got into the crosshairs of the military intelligence unit. Can you share a bit about how you learned that you were being noticed and what happened as a result of that?
Han Htoo 1:15:59
A, it is not a that I explicitly a aware that the military might have my name, but it is a reasonable conclusion, given the experiences given the A atrocities and abuses that my colleagues from the BSF, and from the USU, the university student Union's facing a incite the interrogation camps and the insane prison. So, they are there just to some point, that you cannot just keep the information and 10 to torture a I totally understand that it is quite reasonable things to things that you might have leak certain names or information, if you are tortured, or given trouble enough inside the interrogation camp also we have this protocol if a member and invest members of our socket is arrested. We move from like the the safe houses the the online domains that the that certain person who is arrested a know in two days, it is just a rule of thumb that a it is super safe to to just assume that you are exposed. We were hiding, we thought was not safe enough. We're in there and and in Latin, they were night but hosts the thing we call like a some sort of very small skill and, and low impact battles between the protest groups and the and the soldiers every night. They were just protesting. And when the police and the military trucks came in the disappears and they threw the people the soldiers like a cars around the street and a shoot a sound bombs tear gass and the people throw them back with Molotov cocktails and and where we were living was just a no escape a flat if the police show up at your doorstep, you're done. So we thought it would be a wise idea to stay off the grid. So I eventually decided to flee to liberated area, an area controlled by ethnic group. So I in two weeks, I just left NGO.
Host 1:19:45
Right and you had mentioned to me before and review that before you reach this ethnic area that nine of your close colleagues were unfortunately detained and arrested Do you know anything about their condition and what what their status after being arrested
Han Htoo 1:20:08
their country conditions were so desperate and poor. The the female members of the arrested group faced frequent sexual harassment and the male numbers they were beaten. They were hit so hard that they could not sleep on their back. They they sleep on their chest because the back there's so much pain on it. And their glasses were broken. And they were they were placed inside the prison inside the prison cells, together with criminals who really committed a crime major crimes they had to spend a day they had to share the cell with these people and they were bullied. And the prison authorities didn't do anything about it. And we even believe that they intentionally a less time share with these criminals to be bullied. And they were they were forced to carry human waste. And and the way they had sleep deprived ation all the things we we will land we learned from the reliable sources that we can trust 100% and their situations, their conditions were so poor.
Host 1:22:08
That's that's really tough. I'm sorry, that's must be really terrible for you to hear about your friends in these conditions and to feel so helpless to do anything to prevent the torture that they're enduring. Are those nine all still in prison? They are there. I'm really sorry. So while this was happening, you were able to escape you referenced earlier that military intelligence was actively searching for you as you were moving to different state houses and eventually to ethnic areas can you share which ethnic area you ended up making it to?
Han Htoo 1:22:56
I went to the UK and new control area. I actually I had been only I had been to current state for only twice and I didn't think my taxes it would be to the liberated area. I met a lot of people, a lot of interesting people and the CDM police, the CDM soldiers and people like atavist who are just like me fleeing away from the arrest and and people who were joining the armed struggle and who were receiving training for armed struggle. So I met with these people and live in conditions when not convenient. It is a super inconvenient. Sometimes you just don't eat a sample. Sometimes you you don't have anything to eat. Sometimes you don't you just don't eat because you don't want to eat what you have. And the other conditions were also poor we have very limited electricity. But we were fortunate enough to be on the border with Thailand. And we can use the Thai SIM cards, the facilities were arranged by the host and and they are kind and and we take that in the in the river and My daily daily routine, I would say, I, I, I would wake up and have breakfast, if there's anything left and I would
1:25:20
walk
Han Htoo 1:25:22
about 10 minutes to get a swag make it is a luxury. And I I would drink it together with my friend and I will be back at my camp and I will talk with people and would have lunch and have a nap. And in the time that the one the generator is on, we will will try to have the socket for our for our phones to charge. And it is not enough. If you run fast enough, you will find grant one. So and in the evening, you take baths, you watch your cloth in the river, and you change and you have dinner and find some drinks and and it was the the only entertainment or or wardley pleasure that you can find in the camp, you can still drink but a you don't want to drink with so many people or strange people because things can get messy. It is not good for the camp for you for the other people and for the host. So you drink discreetly? Well, and you call it a day. At one night, this is my favorite story. I was stung by a scorpion a four times. Subsequently. Yeah, a, I was just after my bad in the river, and I I dried my pants on the wall on the partition wall. And I didn't know that the scorpion was hiding in the pocket of my trouser. And I just, I just put it on. And I was just 10 again and again really recovered. Yeah, I was recovered, it was an phenomenas enough to to travel me for days.
Host 1:28:01
How was the morale?
Han Htoo 1:28:03
I would say that people were asking to themselves and to each others. How What are the odds that we can when people were uncertain, but still, I would appreciate? And I would admit that I was surprised, at least contrary to my previous thoughts. When I found that people were strong enough that they will they were uncertain. But they were so determined that they were not given up. I think if one has the contest, one can get the difference between these two statements.
Host 1:29:00
And so you stayed in this camp for about two months. Is that right?
Han Htoo 1:29:04
Yes. Two months. Exactly.
Host 1:29:06
And that's quite a long time two months. So you really fit into a kind of routine and mode and relationships and a sense of normality starts to sink in I suppose
Han Htoo 1:29:18
even apart from the most difficult days and and events like the scorpion or or days like you have like very strange food that you try to eat but you can't a things became normal for me and a not not in the sense that I am perfectly I was perfectly okay there but a sense that in the sense that the the lack of oven convenience, a man's, less and less to me.
Host 1:30:07
Right? Humans are definitely adaptable species and whatever situation we find ourselves in much better, much worse we, after a while, we tend to just adapt and normalize that. While you were there during those two months, did you continue with strategizing or any activist? involvements? I imagine that would be hard with the lack of internet and electricity, or, on the flip side, did you? Did you undergo any training or learning new skills? What productively were you doing during those months?
Han Htoo 1:30:43
I wasn't doing any training. I was just working out in the evenings, together with my friends. But I there was internet connection, pretty reliable and strong enough. But what is limited is electricity. So I can work but only on my phone, nor not on my computer. It it limits a certain things, but it is still workable. And I was to able to work. By work, I mean, having meetings with my group members, and representing my organization, in these forums and platforms of activists and civil society organizations founded to react the coop, and as a Foreign Relations Officer, I was also able to talk with a people outside Myanmar, a government actors and non government ones, like activists, and academics.
Host 1:32:15
Right, and how were the relations between the the more students that you were with in that group and the Korean hosts?
Han Htoo 1:32:24
It is a quite a good question. And the answer is mixed. A for the people who are who are just a who, who just have a hoo hoo, already have had connections and contacts, or at least a, who have already been involved in politics, circles, life was not too hard when it comes to relationships with the host. But if you are a just a student, or who used to be a stranger to political activism, before the coop, and people like you, the CDM staff, or people who just joined the armed struggle, they didn't have much exposures with the host. The host also had some sort of arrangement that allows them to save people who seems to be in danger, but at the same time, not to expose themselves too much because they could be imposed as or spies or, or simply people who talks and arcs too much.
Host 1:34:10
Right. Right. And you mentioned there was some adjustment to the conditions the food can you share a bit about the food I imagine you were eating different styles of cooking and different things being cooked than you had before in urban centers? What were some of the things that you were served,
Han Htoo 1:34:27
there are there was regularly meet a in our means, but only regularly enough. There were some there were quite often irregular times that the supply the heos was delayed and we just had some rice and some fried Hey, strange flowers. And I really had a hard time eating these. And, and also there are there certain PDFs in those two months where people just cook for all people, and we just eat from this. So if you were not like a hangry in the early hours and decided to wait, the food is gone. And there were also some exotic meats such as wild boars. And yeah, like things for just like, some days, sometimes we just a cause only rice. And, and we have to go to a good distance to find things at very little shops that we can eat with, like, chips. Or, or I don't know, some vegetables.
Host 1:36:30
Yeah, it sounds difficult and you referenced that you were there about two months exactly, you what compelled your time to come to an end?
Han Htoo 1:36:39
Ay, ay ay ay have my friends who have applied a visa on my v b house or in their respective countries and also their friends, I reach out and ask for, to find ways to take me out because the deliberated areas are not potentially safe areas, I was fortunate enough to be a to have been brought to a relatively safe area, in the A, in the areas controlled by the same ethnic organizations, the others were bombed. And there were there were numerous encounters between the caused forces and the militaries forces. And it was, it was just a question of time. Like, for one, like we would be surprised by an air raid, or a crown campaign, a military campaign. So one of the thing was the was the most promising the lead. And also, they I met, I met an old friend, literally speaking an old teacher, in the camp. And, and we, we cook together, and we ate together. And we were just sharing spaces. So he came to have a connection to made his way to Thailand. And I, I tried my best to a lad, make him like a last me tag, along with his group, and I was successful. And I also made my way to Thailand. exactly two months after I left Django. And after that, subsequently, my visa was successful. And I traveled to Germany.
Host 1:39:49
So that's quite a journey over the last few months. Touring late January, you never thought that you would be going to the places that he did and having the experiences that you did And thank goodness that you have managed to find yourself in a place of relative safety and comfort after everything that you've gone for. And that from the position that you're in, you're now able to play a role and support in ways that when you were close to your danger, you probably could not. And at this point going forward, what do you think it will take for the people to win?
Han Htoo 1:40:26
It's a it's a million dollar question. Sure, yes. And I think a, we need a stamina, we need a energy, the wish could keep as running until the long run or at least medium run. And, and the other thing is a concerted and harmonious movement in the middle, and, and at the top tier, I would say, well, politically intented and, and effective, timely political leadership, I would say things at the bottom are working really well. And we need things a at the top right. In my take the political leadership today is not efficient, and and like in the form, which it is supposed to take. So we need energy in the base level, in the at the bottom level, and in the middle level, we need concerted and harmonious approach. At the top level, we need really decisive, timely, well intended political leadership. It is a very, I know, very conceptual and abstract. But it is the thing, which is on my mind at the moment.
Host 1:42:59
Yeah, thank you for the last question I have, I just want to go back to what you talked about in the first couple minutes of this interview and your background and you reference how your family's livelihood was running a shop that sold monks requisites, and robes and books on Buddhism. And so through this family work, I'm sure that you came in contact with many monks and monasteries and supporters and that more religious side of society. And so I'm wondering your thoughts on the monastic involvement in the current movement what where do you see the monkhood falling What do you see of their response and what would you like to see going forward?
Han Htoo 1:43:50
Okay. If If, if we can say that a certain group had been trying to take the monastic order out of the political leadership political activism leadership roles historically in Myanmar wishes last by monks and students I would say these people has been successful a in these transition years. It is now not a surprise anymore not to see monks in the leadership roles, but it it has a it would have been a surprise For a person in 1988, our, our 96, our especially 2007, Saffron revolution, to hear the current level of involvement of Buddhist monks, in this protest, there are of course, a quite a number of monks who participated in the protest at the front lines and I have even studied and learned about, monk who became laymen to join the armed struggles, these stories are moving, but as a whole, the the monastic order, I would say has given up its leadership role in the, in this political movement,
Host 1:46:13
right and so, with the condition in mind that the that by virtue of becoming a Buddhist monastic, there is a renunciant quality to that decision, there is a sense of leaving the world and of not being political you No one can debate what being political means, but certainly one takes on a different role in society through a monastic. So, what, knowing the duties and the vow and the responsibilities of what it means to ordain is a Buddhist monk and to follow that code that the Buddha set down? How do you see that monks can continue to follow their monastic vow and fulfill the vinaya that 227 rules that they must follow? How can they continue to do that, while also playing a positive role in the movement?
Han Htoo 1:47:09
I, I I don't think I can give a an analysis of expert view a on this I, I was a raised by Buddhist family and my family is close to monasteries. It is just that I I must admit that I'm no expert, but there are there there's I think still ways to to like not to keep yourself silent towards the injustice. While I mean like I think there are ways not to keep yourself silent towards the injustice without breaking the rules, which must be observed by the monks, Buddha, Buddha, even a mediated a battle between two nations once and like in some sense, he got involved in politics. But now the reason of the decline of Buddhist monks involvement in political activism and and they are see to watch the injustice is not necessarily the strict observation of the loss but success of a campaign of which used Buddhist nationalist sentiment against democracy, freedom of expressions, and, and multilaterism and international communities in the past 10 years.
Host 1:49:44
Right. So then we come back to this issue of fake news and of trying to get the accurate information fitting in once again. And so in this response or perhaps lack of response on the part of the Buddhist monkhood how How have the people been holding on? How have they been doing them because of course, in traditional Burmese Buddhist society, there is a, a certain level of deferring to monks and there, those that are in robes hiring, following a higher level of ethical and spiritual discipline. So, in general, what has been the people's and here I'm referring to the wider segment of traditional Burmese Buddhist society, not just the young activists that are in your crowd, but in terms of across the board and among the people who have for so many years supported them and taking advice from them and showing respect and reverence to them. What response Are you seeing among them for the for how the monkhood has been engaging or not engaging the president?
Han Htoo 1:50:55
As far as I can observe, I I don't see people like complaining the entire order. But the first day priests, a the monks that a stand on the side of justice and they renounce the monks who are who who are not. Not necessarily who are not active, but who have been to silent for their position. With these atrocities, the military is the military have been committing I I can say that it is true for a larger community of Burmese Buddhist people, not all but still not just a circle of modern educated you.
Host 1:52:11
Right, so this could be changing the nature of Lady songa relationship going forward. However this plays out?
Han Htoo 1:52:18
Indeed, I would say so. At least a some of the most prominent Buddhist monks are in pressure and having a social punishment because of their silence.
Host 1:52:41
Right, right. Well, with this, I thank you so much for joining us. This has been a really informed interview, not just of ideas and of learning more about history and the movement through academic studies you've brought to it but also in your own personal story. And I'm very relieved that you've been able to be in a place of safety and continuing on your work. I'm very sorrowful, to know about those colleagues of yours that are still in detention. And I think I speak for all listeners with thoughts and prayers, metta remembering them, caring for them, hoping for their safety. And I wish you the best of success, the movement as well. Thank you so much for the time that you've taken to be able to share in such depth of your experience over these last few months and your experiences as well over the year of the previous years leading up to this.
Han Htoo 1:53:41
My pleasure. I'm happy to talk on these matters. And it is my pleasure to be invited efficace to the session.
Host 1:54:25
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2:01:10
Yo yo