Transcript: Episode #55: Beaten but not Broken

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Jon, which appeared on May 30, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Host  00:40

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Jon  02:10

Hey, by the way, have a good day. So it was on the first of March about arrested from the police crackdown of the protest. It was so we they were pro like they were really trying to disperse the crowd to from through the last weeks of February. And yeah, so it was one of the first day that it was on the third day that they use flash grenades on the crowds. So the first second day, first two days that they use the flash grenades and try to disperse the crowd. We like I was like, I witnessed it. And I experienced the first time first flash grenades for two days. And so on the third day, yeah, again, we went out for protest, then. Yeah, we wish to this. So we visited this protest place. And within about three hours into the crackdown, was when I got arrested. And how did they get you? So um, we we were camping at this, but Omar street in Sangha. So while we were camping, and we were like, protesting and having like the defense shield teams and everything on the, on the streets. So it was one of those days when we were like fighting back with the shields and shields and the covers and everything. So we were Yeah, so then they tried to break down the barriers that we've put up, put up on the roads. And basically, they break through all the barriers with the bulldozers. And yeah, like 20 police officers start marching in from the front. So we started slowly dispersing and so we have to, like from the whole crowd we have to run. And then while I was running, I found the restaurant so I went into one of the restaurant to hide but unfortunately to police officer I'm, like, run up behind me. And so immediately, not immediately, but like around like, after some altercation, like three of us got caught from that. From that

Host  05:14

race you so you were hiding in the restaurant when the police saw you when they came in there you mentioned there was an altercation. So was it a bit of a physical fight to be able to capture into Daniel?

Jon  05:28

Yeah, when the police actually won, the police saw me run into the restaurant, but we actually managed to have quite some time for everyone to hide. So but what happened to me in the case was because I was one of the last person I ran out of places to hide. So yeah, one, when I run into the back, I saw some people already hitting in the toilet area. So I was just trying to find another place to hide. And like, there was no more places and I didn't want to go into the room again. So that they thought is an open again. Yeah, so that's why at that moment, while I was trying to look for the place and look for a place to hire best one. Police was slowly coming in from the front, and then all the way to the back. And they found me all the way up in the back of the bar off the restaurant. Yeah. So yeah, there was an altercation in the sense when the police pulled me out, right. So they were aiming like, the rubber bullet comes towards me. And he was very reshoot. So yeah, he was ready to shoot him. Tom told me to slowly come up. So one, when, when I was out of the corner, a two other police officer came up and tried to hit me. So as they were hitting me, so I was trying to, like, just avoid. Like, when we were trying to hit the head, I was just like, blocking with my hand, right? automatically. And that's when the police officers were like, so they start like, three or four guys started running towards me. And then I start hitting me to the ground, like to I fall on the ground. And then I got my head got hit with like, quite two or three big clothes. So that's when I screamed and yelled and like, submit to them. I'd say like, yeah, so I will comply to whatever they're doing. So yeah, before then, they like Yeah. And then I asked them, like, you know, you're not actually allowed to arrest me on like, what charges are you guys putting on me? I was just in the bar. But they wouldn't listen, and they will pull me up. And then they told me this sit on the, on the street, in front of the restaurant. So we have to sit on the street with our hands to the back. And then they handcuffed me with my hands. Pull to the back.

Host  08:08

Have you ever been in any kind of fight before this?

Jon  08:12

Um, no, not actually. I've never actually been in any physical fight.

Host  08:17

So this was the first time you'd really had violence inflicted on you was when police were surrounding you and hitting you to the ground and getting several blows into the head. Yes. So then you're outside and you're being detained waiting to enter the police car, I assume. So what was going through your mind at this point?

Jon  08:38

Yeah, at that point. I was still like, it was two things I like part of me still wants to make a run for it if I could, but then like because like Priyanka was pretty tired. And they were holding me as they were holding me and walking me towards to the police car. They were continual. Continuously they were throwing up threats. Like they pay like the police was saying it was easily taken is a kill me and I know, whoever that was trying to like Pete from the windows and stuff. So they were like pointing the town towards the onlookers and people on the side and to anyone, any people they see far. They were pointing towards their gums towards the people, the crowd and then yeah, shouting up death threats

Host  09:33

to the crowd. Was this also your first ever encounter with police?

Jon  09:40

In the sense of a criminal like to be treated as a criminal and thrown into the jail. Yes, this

Host  09:48

was my first right and so then you get to the police station and what happens nice.

Jon  09:54

When we got to the police station, they told us to keep our heads down and then Like, try to kind of call towards the police station. So it was from the band to the stations like front desk, or where they have the entry desk. So they kind of told us to like, bend down, and then walk while bending now. Yeah, so they make us Yeah, get low and then walk towards towards the desk and then near towards the entrance of the jail cell. Makes make us lie and they make us sit down in two pairs, they make us sit down in on pairs rows of two, and then six of us have to sit down on the ground for a bit with our hands on. I had him for a little while. And then and then from then they kicked us into the jail. So we were in in the cell while we were being like, kept in the dark. We keep asking the police officers like to tell us why we why we're being detained. And to tell us like if we're being charged or arrested or, and we were really asking the police officers to respond to like, give us like, let us reach our home right to to contact our home and to give us access to a phone call, which they wish they never get food for the whole day after. After a whole day of being locked up in a cell. Then at seven 8pm they finally took us into the car and then drove us up to then say, well, we're being taken to they didn't tell us like what's going to happen to us or anything. So even in the jail. So our our biggest fear was being released after curfew back onto the street, right? Because at that time, during the curfew time, they still use that they are shooting people out at night. And also there's some incidents where they are releasing all the prisoners back out on the street like with, like, injected with injected with drugs. Yeah, so if you heard that news, like some people were injected with, some of the detainees were released from prisons, but high on drugs and running in the streets, running around the streets with weapons in their hands doesn't actually know what they're doing. So um, so yeah, we were quite afraid that we will be released in that scenario. But But luckily, that didn't happen. All they did was took us to the street straight to the maximum security insane prison.

Host  12:57

What's a notorious prison?

Jon  12:59

Yes, famous visit and by that time, that's when we know we were like, shit there's no way back. Because we're actually now in prison.

Host  13:08

So what was going through your mind at that time when you go to this notorious infamous prison you know know you're in the police car not knowing what's happening to you what's your what you're being charged with? Where you're going to go and what they're going to do with you and then you realize you're being led into this awful maximum security prison insane what was going through your mind at that point?

Jon  13:31

Yeah, like, my, in my mind, it was just like, I was just trying to think of a waste that I can get out of it. When it's so ours. Yeah, like escape escape? How can I get out of this? How can I get out of this? At this point, I was still, like, quite naive and still stubborn and thing. Like, I can still easily get out of this. Yeah, or like, I was still thinking like, Okay, this, like, if I show them enough empathy or like, to get the sympathy out of them then, like, I'm sure they will still be nice to us. Because they only human so that this is what how I was trying to plan my way out from the prison, right? Not trying to be like, yes, trying to try to act like I'm one of the weakest link and then trying to win the empathy.

Host  14:29

When did that work?

Jon  14:31

Yes. So this is how I was planning but doing work.

Host  14:34

So you were booked in the prison then?

Jon  14:37

Yes, so so then we were we we wish to the gate of the prison. We wish to the prison gate and then the past stopped. And that because there was actually two of us and one were going, I want we kind of have an idea that we might be going towards insane. favor some people in the crowd. Like some of my soulmates, as I call them now. Yeah, we're actually saying that they might be, we might be going. Insane cousin. And yeah, so we were. So at that point, the all of us the informations becomes like the word of my informations. So someone who have been to like so in the crowd as someone who has been to prison, so he was mainly, like, kind of leading us and saying, like, how things are in prison and how, yeah, so how he had to go through times, because when he did times how, how horrible these police are in terms of training, like even to normal crimes. And while they're, while he says,

Host  15:49

so what what kinds of things was he preparing you for?

Jon  15:53

No, melaque mainly when he was, he was, so when we arrived, he was saying like, the main the main things that we were, like the basic prison rules of like, he was saying how, you know, every, every cell in prison have, like, two main two main, like, heads of the rooms. So they are someone like they're also prisoners, but they're in charge of like this, like someone's in charge of discipline? disciplinary? Yeah, like disciplinary stuff. And once in charge of like, the management of the rule. Like he, like he tries to keep everyone like in control and in order. Yeah, so he was also this guy was like, he went to early on, he went to prison with drugs. So he was just, yeah, so he was just telling us how, like, people in prison, like how bad the situation is on how they have to sleep. And like some of the sleeping conditions that we have to go through. And then some of the struggles that how we cannot be staying up. Staying up and talking after nine o'clock and whatnot.  But um, yeah, when we arrived to insane and the first time I walked into insight, like, ours, quiet. I don't know how to put it, but like there was, it was still surreal. This place like it was as grim as it was, it was quite busy as well. Because because there was a lot of people being arrested at that time. Right. So when we were in there, there was already 500 of the kids that was arrested in the night before. Yeah, so yeah, there was like 1010 to people's like, just moving around in pairs. Pair of twos like going left going, right. And then there was some other people with prison uniforms, like not prisoners uniforms. So there were people wearing like, blue pill tops in blue. longji.

Host  18:13

Right, because blue, blue is the color that prisoners wearing me and more.

Jon  18:19

Yeah, so dark blue, is they used to wear like, white. But now it's like, dark blue. For for the whole top and bottom. So yeah, there was some of the prisoners going around with my big bucket of stuff, too. And then we learned so that and then so yeah, we were, we were like we got in, we were stationed, we were registered with our name and our father's name. And then we were placed into and how about the approximate ages of the people that you were with? And you were saying, um, there was quite a, it was quite a big range, because, um, when I was arrested, I think the youngest person in my group was 23. But the oldest person that came with us was 69. So there's the 69 years old guy, he was arrested while he was on his home. They came the police, the soldiers came up into his, into his tube up to his apartment, broke the door down. I punched him, then dragged him down and arrest him and accused him of pouring hot water on them. Which you do do, but I think he had some, like opposition groups like supporting wallpaper and stuff in his home.

Host  19:47

So you get into insane prison. You see all the bustling activity happening all around. It's a surreal experience, as I would imagine, and you mentioned that you were then shown to yourself

Jon  19:58

Yeah, we Put into ourselves. And then they said, like, they will go through like, they will take us to the interrogation afterwards. So they said at the moment, so at that time in the insane, they actually in that they actually feed us. So when we got inside the prison guards came and then say my inform us that we will need to do the interrogation. Let go through the interrogation test tonight. And by this time, it was already night 930 10. We arrived to the cell. And unlock Luckily, I was wearing a watch. So no one else was wearing a watch. So I could still keep track of time. Yeah. And that was the only watch that we have in the whole cell was my watch. And one of my

Host  20:52

Oh, wow. Right? Because they took everyone's phone. So most people don't wear watches these days. Yeah. How many people were in the cell?

Jon  21:00

So when we arrived, there was already like, there was I think there was 10 other people already, right. So total of us becomes 42.

Host  21:15

So it was one large big cell.

Jon  21:17

Yeah, so the cell was quite huge. So the cell can actually fit up to about 100. Yeah, so when we wish to this cell, so what we will give him was, was two pair of blankets. And one pair of like a blue loungey. And one, one pair of a one sport, one plastic spoon and one tray. Like, you know those type of food trays. They have like the compartment food trays like a bento box type of metal food trays. Yeah. So they provide us with each of those stuff. And then told us to Yeah, told us to wait until we've been we will be called again.

Host  22:10

And did they look through your phone? Did your phone have things that could incriminate you?

Jon  22:14

At that time? My phone? I know, I have my my phone wasn't right. They didn't look through my phone because it was at the early stage where they were not looking for evidence properly. So without checking my phone without checking anything without checking my bags properly, they just like, arrested me because I was dressed like that. So it was quite, quite one. ridiculous thing was one delivery guy food delivery guys was arrested as well. So he was arrested together with me. When we were all six and a car. One of them was full dressed in a delivery uniform. And because he was wearing a helmet, he was on a bike. And he was full dressed in black and neon green of the delivery his delivery uniform. And yeah, so he got arrested. Yes, so they were like arresting people based off how right it

Host  23:28

sounds like initially, at least you were somewhat fortunate. I mean, of course you were not fortunate and being detained or being beaten before you were brought to the car. But you did seem fortunate in that they didn't check your phone at that time.

Jon  23:43

I'm definitely one of the more fortunate one because even when I got after I got arrested and after we talked to everyone after the interrogation, even after right after the Intellivision amongst us there was 10 1111 of us got, like, beaten up just intervening because they were charged with so when when they were charged with like the assault to the police as a as a side note to to our names, that's when they will like beat us up to the intimidation. Right.

Host  24:26

So definitely, there's been a lot of people that have not been so fortunate. And of course, there have been many cases where people have been killed in police custody. So that also has to be a concern running through everyone's mind.

Jon  24:40

Yeah, like for I was, I was fortunate because like my day was one of the first day that they stopped hacking now. And like, I can see in from the inside, there was no news of the outside news. And there was no means for me to have like contact to my family or whatever. So But like we can tell, from each days that people getting arrested the next day and the day after, and the day after, it just keeps getting worse and worse. Because when we arrive, like, on my day, there was only, like, there was two purrs like no bleeding costs, there was like two or three people that got beaten up pretty bad. And I mean, like, we got beaten up pretty bad, but like no bleeding case, or like no one have a crack score from the, from the second of march to the third, fourth, fifth. And as they keeps going into the month of March, the injuries getting worse and worse and worse. We started seeing much more worse injuries.

Host  25:52

And you saw that personally.

Jon  25:56

Yeah, like, I mean, like people, whoever came in, so inside, because there was no more communication, no other way form of communication rather than just verbal communication. Right? So, yeah, so people were just so um, when we were in prison, like my parents, before going to prison, my parents was always saying, oh, when you actually have to go in there, make sure you're not known. And like, make sure you like, stay to yourself, and don't talk to a lot of people and just stay, you know, like, stay away from other people. Right. That's what my mom used, like, my parents warned me before I was arrested.

Host  26:37

So they were actually warning you about how to behave once you were in prison. So your parents actually were concerned? This was a real possibility?

Jon  26:46

Yes, like, since day one. I like since day one of the protests, like we started our protest moves on the third of third of June. Yeah. Three days after the initial coop day. Yeah. So like, I was prepared for it. I was prepared to like, either get arrested or, like, get the bullet one day, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. So I was described, like, I will, we will always describe what's my parents about? How, like my parents, parents will always be warning us about how things were bad back in their days. Back in the ad revolution, how people are treated and how they heard stories of the use of these people that are treated so bad, in prison

Host  27:41

room where they tried to encourage you not to go out or were they supportive and just giving you advice for keeping safe,

Jon  27:48

like So on the first three, four days, I went out like they was supportive, in a sense, but they were only supportive. Like they couldn't stop me right. So they allow me to go out but who wanted to keep checking in on me so which was an annoying thing? Because Yeah, like Yeah, but yeah, so they were they were they try to be informative in the early like, in the early days, they tried to be informative, but they keep falling into the trap trap of this psychological warfare that police were using last night. So on the on the third day that we actually go out for huge march on the on the triple five on me five, two days. On the day that everyone went out to to to to 22nd of February 2022 Yeah, so on that day, everyone was out but now from the police side, they posted like they posted a photo of a sniper on a rooftop actually. Yeah, so when that photo came out, like everyone was freaked and like my family who call me and say don't go to sue lane because they sniper the yeah so but we still end up going to sue labor because like, we like just power walking and wallowing He's like, I just call up do shit to them. Yeah,

Host  29:20

it was fake photo, right?

Jon  29:22

Yeah, it was a photo from 2008 right right. It was real photo but taking a different

Host  29:29

Yeah, these are not the brightest guys in the room.

Jon  29:32

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So even at that point, right, like, Well, like I just told my mom as well straight up my mom if I go shot, like, like, what like, if there's snipers on the rooftop, who are they shooting? That's all I said. Like if they actually this is like, I just told them like, right, I just at that point, I just thought like, they're not the type of cool institution to do it to them. People. I was not I forget, I guess.

Host  30:02

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people were in those early days.

Jon  30:06

Yeah. And then and then as day gets worse, yeah, we keeps hearing all these arrests and arrests. And I think, like, so. Yeah. So by this time now I'm in prison and will. So they kind of just like blocked the whole outside news. So we will not hearing what's going on on the outside at all. So there's no way for us to know the know the news, or like any updates on what's going on on site. But only keep seeing new people getting invested.

Host  30:48

And as those more people are coming in, you also mentioned that you're starting to see more and more serious injuries and beatings of those prisoners, is that right?

Jon  30:58

Yes. Yeah. So as more people are coming in, like, So, every still in, in the prison, what they really try to do is they try to separate each of us. So they really try to keep the people separate from each other, as much as they can. So, they try to divide us from from the first of March arrestees to the fourth Of March 4 of March arrestees who we were all set like we were all packed in one. So building and then and then later onwards. Later onwards, the data the other like the later days got sent into another building. And they really tried to, like separate us and not have us seen on like talk to each other. So they really try to separate out on all of us. to, to to avoid like to avoid. Right, like uprising in the prisons?

Host  32:18

I'm sure. Yeah. So eventually you just settle into a kind of routine day after day, or I don't know how long you're going to be there. But you end up being there for quite some time. And so I imagine that humans are an adaptable species, no matter what situation we're in, we eventually start to normalize it and fall into a routine so did that happen with you? And insane?

Jon  32:46

Shit that happened to me when that happened to me insane on from the second week, like we had up because when they come like, actually, when we come in what was worse, worse? A they've tried, they sugarcoat the prison itself, sugarcoat it and treated us, like, in a nice way. Right? Because they didn't tell us I didn't treat us or you did this wrong, we did this wrong and like, you have just been here and this amount of time. Right? All they keep repeating that we are a guest so it's a weird fucked up way. Yeah, it's like really strange way that they they try to make maintain order in prison if they say they are like we are cast here. So we like they only like holding us accountable. Like they only keeping us because of the police. So like they they are not taking responsibility for our capture. Right. So one thing we really try to push us with right? Like, who is responsible for our capture and they would not tell us so even in the police station, when they hold us in this one police station, we will keep will keep asking. I demand My advice to my lawyers if I'm being going to be detained. I demand my rights for like, you know, a phone call the lawyer or phone call to my home, home to at least tell them to find a lawyer or like to do something about it. And this is one thing that we keep them like asking them asking them when we keep trying to avoid this situation. So yeah, even the prison so the prison was they only account like their only job is to hold whoever what they were told to hold. So we got arrested by the police. But then police said police put us through a trial. So we were kept in prison throughout this whole time of the trial is going to go and then we will to only be released upon by the work of the judges in the courthouse. So prison. Yeah, so prison prison prison really stayed as a middle man, that is not his fault and like, like, it's not my fault. I'm just doing my job. And then they were Yeah, they were trying to like, really not get any hate or five from the

Host  35:28

crowd. So no one is really taking responsibility for what's happening. No one is really giving proper information about what's going on are the protocols. And while this misinformation and miscommunication continues to persist, you're also being deprived of all of your legal rights in that time as well.

Jon  35:49

Yes, definitely. Right. So

Host  35:51

did you go to trial?

Jon  35:55

So no one was going to the courthouse like the black supposed to, for proper court case? No. No courthouse? Like there was no there was no courthouse that was issuing the laws or like, giving us that our were detained for this law. And with the team for this law, there was only like, there was only we were we were done through a video call, video conference call. Yeah, so we will call the into this presence main building in the middle. And everyone will arrive there. And then hopefully, we'll call out each person's name. And then and then this go and the video call will tell us like, presumably, she's like, she says she's a church. My but she was like in her 20s. So she's quite a young church. Yeah, giving acting like giving a lot of the older, proper judges were away or doing CDM movements and everything. Yeah. So we were Yeah, we were charged only via video conferencing.

Host  37:04

Right. And what was the charge you were given?

Jon  37:07

I was given the 505505. A, which was, which is given in response to bad mouthing the military or not? Yeah, not complying with the military.

Host  37:24

In what sentence was given with that.

Jon  37:28

So five of a sentence is up to two years in prison. Maximum. Yeah, so maximum two years and minimum, like minimum amount we like to add to the information with like, minimum was three months.

Host  37:49

So you were told that you were going to be there from three months to three years?

Jon  37:54

Yeah, so there was the there was, like rumors of like three chairs going around, and like people who I've met and everyone inside was saying at least two or three years,

Host  38:06

that must have really hit you like a ton of bricks. That realization.

Jon  38:10

Yeah, like, I still remember that day one day, took us to the court and say, like, so on the third day in, like, fantast when we relax, okay, we're not being released anymore. Yeah, so then we started seeing everyone like, you're a different person breaking down at different points of the time of us, right, like so we were, we were seeing like, one person break down and stop crying. Yeah, so it was quite horrible. In that sense, when they kept us in the dark and we don't know what's going to happen. And in amongst our groups, I was like, I was ready and I was prepared for it. I was fully prepared to surf. Since I was in I was prepared to stay for three years.

Host  39:00

So you did you have your breakdown moment or were you mentally prepared enough that you you accepted it calmly?

Jon  39:10

I accepted it but the problem for me was the breakdown and the problem for me was more of when people in the room keeps getting like coming with the news of hopes that will be released tomorrow tomorrow. And yeah, so the first week was pretty hard because we keeps giving like giving this whole false hope that we will get released more and yeah, we will detained for 25 days. And when we will release we didn't know we were going to be released that day. So they just called us and then say you're on the list of release them. Well, so

Host  39:48

you so before you release you had kind of settled into a pattern and a mindset of like I'm here for a couple years.

Jon  39:57

Yes. Like you basically You have to because otherwise you go crazy, right? Hmm.

Host  40:04

And so how did? How did you start to adjust to that? How did you start to change your mindset and your thinking to really accepting and living with several years ahead of you in a maximum security prison for really no reason?

40:21

Whoa.

Jon  40:26

At that time, that was one night. It was something that we just had to go through. This is like, what I said to my mom all the time. If I get arrested then as I get arrested, because that is the world that we're living in today. It's like, yeah, mom's I wonder if you died. And then I will if I die. That's like, that's the world that we are living in today. Like, they are killing us. Right? Yeah. So yeah, that's how I have prepared myself for it. It's like, if this amount of people is wrongly accused and charged, then we are going to stay so inside we wouldn't like we're not going to stop. Like we're not going to stop firing.

Host  41:18

So as you settled into prison life, those latter couple weeks before you were released, when you thought at that time that you might be there for a couple years. What were the daily routines like? was it was it boring? Was it scary? Was there violence? Did you make friends? Were you depressed? What what was kind of the vibe and the daily routine that you started to fit into?

Jon  41:42

My daily routine was quite nice. It was quite boring. But the funny thing about one thing was, when we arrived, we had to hang out every morning, around seven, we had to wake up for headcount. So they will do like hackathons. And so they will come at seven. So we have to do headcount at 7am. And then slowly as day one pie, like it keeps getting earlier and earlier. And by the middle of the night, we had to get up at five in the morning. And then like sit down for sit in position for half an hour, half an hour until someone comes and give the headcounts so they will really try to like slowly put us into like a food prisoner. like fools and attitude. Yeah, it was like a slow burn. It wasn't like, it wasn't like, yeah, we were sentenced, and then we will. And we have to adjust to this one. So they really, like tried to make sure that we we got we get adapt to the situation more rather than forced upon us.

Host  43:02

Why do you think they did that?

Jon  43:05

I think mainly because they scared of us. Right? Because there was, it was a shoo in number. Like there was say, at the time I was arrested. There was like 3000 light rays. 2000 of us. And yeah, at least 2000 of us inside. So like, and there's only like how many cards right? There's probably a lot of pool instead of Yeah. So I think the cards for their own safety and for their own. Like, safety that pretty much. They were. Yeah, I think they were scared of us that they really tried to just sugarcoat us and I try to put try to treat us real nice. And he doesn't want to get on the wrong side of us.

Host  43:56

When they started to clamp down as the days and weeks went on.

Jon  44:02

Yes. So like they they will slowly slowly adjust like the new like the rules and regulations. Right. So we as workers were only detainees at the moment, right? We're not prisoners. So we're not actually technically we're not even allowed to do any hard labor jobs because we're not entitled to any of the jobs in prison. And but then at one point they needed like manpower to help like to maintain what they have two things that I'm at that time in inside one. I was not happy about when I was released. I was surprised but not happy, right? Because like only half of us like on the day that we got arrested and other 42 only 16 was released. So there was like, still half of that people had to leave behind. Like those people inside really becomes your friend, because you were like sleeping, and sleeping and eating with them throughout the days every day, right? So as day goes by, and yeah, so as they go by, there will be days that when I like I will be missing, missing my home and my parents, and then they will be chewing the album, and there will be days when they are missing their homes, when like, I'll try to cheer them up. So we really, like bonded in the level that we've never actually bought with the outside world. So it's quite a sad thing to actually leave. Like, like hopelessly leave them behind.

Host  45:50

Right. Why do you think you were released?

Jon  45:51

I think because of the pressure from outside. I even saw from the data while I was we were arrested. Like on the on the third of March, 3 of March and the fourth of March. The there was I think six hundreds of the university students that got arrested on the third of March. Yes, so those university student there was quite a huge number. And they they came and they said like so they came with the attitudes of one on one is arrested everyone will get arrested. So that's how they were protesting in front of the police station demanding the released for the detained like for, for cutting the some of the uni students. So a lot of the unit students on that day captured in tomboy. Yeah, so um they were Yeah. So they I think they take quite a ripple effect on to the public when when they were arrested, a lot of people will find it for the detainees to released one more. And only when I come out, I realized that one of the French ambassadors excellent. French Institute's Ambassador or some person was in front of the prison gate. Yeah, so I think like when, when pressure one, one was pressured, they feel pressured. And I think because of all those pressure that we will release,

Host  47:41

I see. Right. And when you got released, what was it like, adjusting back to normal life? You mentioned in some ways, it was sad leaving the people you become friends with. But you're also going back to freedom to family to friends, and you're going back to a revolution that's still in process. And yet you were you face those consequences of being a part of the revolution before? How did it also affect your attitude in looking at what you wanted to do and support resistance going forward?

Jon  48:16

Yeah, for that, because no one knew when I was when I was detained, right. I keep telling myself and I keep telling people around me it's like to fight over the fights not over because it's still going on. And it's still fighting. Right. Right. Because when I got arrested, it was like, I know that like just just by me being arrested, like more like one person being arrested, the protests and the movement will not stopped. So I like I really have faith in the battles. And I really, like keep optimistic about trying to move forward to the, to the gold. So um, yeah. So I was quite optimistic about things about the victory or like about how we going forward. So when I was arrested, and through the journey of me in prison, and when when people were getting arrested. There was some so Wow, yeah, so when people were getting arrested, but then when I got released, it was a quite a weird feeling because I feel like I missed out a good battle. In some ways, but my family my and my friends were actually quite thankful because if not, I would have probably been worse not released. Because of all the gruesome methods that they've been using on the later days. Fear So everyone was more worried that if I was not in prison and outside, I would have been one of the 700 Club passed away.

Host  50:08

Yeah, March was a really brutal month, and the weeks after that have only gotten worse through today. So, you know, you were imprisoned, you lost your freedom, you were facing much worse consequences due to your involvement in the resistance movement. And when you came out, and now you see that the police and the soldiers are being even more brutal and violent than they were when you went in. Did you have any hesitation are concerned about going back into supporting the revolution?

Jon  50:42

I'm like, to be honest. Like, just I mean, I hesitate everyday. Right? Like, like, we have, like, because we're only humans, like, I hesitate every day, even before. Before I was getting arrested, like, I will still but like, I go out with the mindset that like, oh, if I'm not going on, and no one is going. So, yeah, like face to face hesitation. But it's just like something that we have to overcome every day. And like, we have to just like, yeah, so every day when we try to be part of this revolution, I just have to be prepared for the worst. And then hopefully the best.

Host  51:32

But you're still proceeding in being actively involved. And oh, yes, yes,

Jon  51:39

I am. Right. I'm still actively involved. But in the first couple of weeks, like I played load, then just write some. Yes. So I guess, I wrote some of my thoughts and whatnot, and tried to just catch up to the latest movements and so on. So which has turned into evolution, and which is seriously talking about how to, like, you know, molotovs and buildings and establishments. And I guess you lost your

Host  52:11

naivete.

Jon  52:14

Yeah. Right. Yeah, it was like, when I come back, I was so  Through the time of the prisoner when I was inside, and what I really managed to learn is the brutality and, and the stance of this military regime. Because there was one story in prison that I'm, that I haven't actually shared with anyone else. So, one, so in one of the night in the middle of the month, like they transferred five prisoners into our room. So by this time, our cell is already 82 of us in one cell. And then for five years, five new person arrived and one of them was the NLD, elected winner of this recent elections, in one of their Shan state. So he was I think, from Taunggyi. So, he was one of the Taunggyi division. So, he was like, also, he came into our cell and then he talked to us about how he was being like captured and then how they tortured him. So that that's when like, I actually started learning about this the black face of this regime just when only after that moment going forward, that whenever some of the death that they have announced and blamed it on this civilians was actually done by them, right. Yeah, so um, this this Shan minister was like, in like they found out where he was hiding so they come up to him come up to the apartment raided the whole apartment, arrested, like, yeah, hit him in the head, and then drag him down, like four storey buildings through the stairs they dragged him down and then put them in a car and then took him to the interrogation room. And so yeah, he's he feels he said like, he was cuffed for six days. So they never released his handcuff. And every time he said it's tight, they were smashing. Make the handcuff tighter. And three night for six days. They left him with no food, but little water. And yeah, and like he he he will be he told me stories of how, like, different ways of beating up and right in like full long interrogation that I've only seen in the movies and James Bond movies, right? Yeah. So he said one of journalists they were interrogation the military, police military use, like the blowtorch gun on on the person to make him unlock his cell phone. Yeah, so yeah, I think it was around in the middle of March. That, yeah, this news night, when he said it was my place to run in the middle of March. And they Yeah, they were interrogating and torturing these people for ridiculous reasons. Like this, this NLD governor was being interrogated into admitting that he he cheated his votes. Which he clearly isn't unlike. But like he had no choice until he said, Yes, I'm a cheater. They keep beating. Yeah, so yeah. So that's how they were doing all this integration thing. And then he told me story of all these gruesome, gruesome interrogation methods.  And, yeah, so. So for me, my my point in this revolution was as long as I'm alive, I'll keep fighting. So even when I was like, sent to prison, I have my mindset, like, the battle is not finished yet, so we're still gonna keep fighting. So even in prison, that's why I'm here. I tried to manage to rally a rally that by like, Kava, like, a good amount of people to actually start a effective hunger strike. Yeah, and but then, yeah, but and then the views got, like, because a lot of people know them and nothing. So it becomes like the information got, like, let loose. So the cast some of the cast founder. So they actually try to really, yeah, so they put for like, they put six people into the confinement. So like, more. I don't know how you call them in English, but there's like, it's like 10 feet. 10 feet wide cross rooms, and they put in like, three people in there. So only three person will be sleeping in a really tight confinement. So abs? Yeah, so they throw 6% in and then try to interrogate them. And see who is behind the movements. So that's one. That's why we kind of noticed and didn't go ahead with the plan as well. Yeah, because yeah, and then because we have a lot of people and then and then the next day, a lot of people got released. So So yeah, we just cancelled. How we will find Empire. Yeah. So but in the prison, when, on the days when they arrested some of the prisoners from flying fire, I'm sure. It was one of the worst days I think it was on the 16th and 17th. Like, one plant fire people were arrested. There was like, underage kids like 1617 being arrested. And then there were like, over 70 my uncles and uncles being arrested by like, beating up to like, pretty bad. One of the uncle I think, is like he couldn't see any more because of the because of all the Yeah, because of all the punches and and the beat up one of his I was like, I think he went blind. So he one of the lines he couldn't see anymore and the other the other eyes also was like, he can only see blurry image. And like he he wasn't given medical attention for me like not proper, like he wasn't given proper medical attention so far, five days. Yeah, and yeah, and then some of the kids will have like the rubber bullets chip in the tube in the Eyes and feeds. And they've been left and like not properly care for medications for the same key for five days. And you

Host  1:00:13

saw these prisoners

Jon  1:00:15

that

Host  1:00:16

had come from the beatings, you you saw the state they were in Yeah, I

Jon  1:00:20

get to talk to them like they're also in, there was a time when they're in prison where we can actually go out and then just be in an outside. So that's one of the other rooms and other cells are allowed to be outside as well. So in the same garden area, we were all, all the prisoners can actually like, chat and talk to each other. So which way we could, that's how we could manage to like, you know, get some people to talk into doing a hunger strike as well.

Host  1:01:03

Right? Yeah. So I think this is definitely a turning point. Definitely for Generation Z, in terms of the understanding of who this military is because many of their brutal acts and their cruel history had been told and family stories of what happened in the battle days and how they behaved and when atrocities occurred. But many younger people in the younger generation hadn't actually had any direct experience about themselves, they were just family tells things that they heard around the house. And so in those early days, I think that there were a lot of protesters who were a bit naive or innocent or optimistic in terms of, well, this, you know, these, these, these security forces won't actually hurt or harm their own people. And they're humans like me, and there were over please, of encouraging police who are out of that time before soldiers were deployed to join the cause and to not harm protesters that were out. And as things started to turn violent, and bloody, and March and April, those feelings started to change. And that optimism turned out to be in many cases, you know, quite wishful thinking and naive thinking. And for the first time, this younger generation has directly experienced the terrible violence and cruelty and brutality that they've only heard about from their parents and whispers growing up, and that now they were the direct victims of this. And so I think this is also a turning point for what the resistance is doing, how what their strategies are, how they're facing a reality that they perhaps weren't in touch with, to this extent, as they are now having been at the other end of this, these attacks. And so, for, you know, speaking to you personally on an individual level, and then also reflecting about what it might mean, on a greater collective level, where are we at this point in the resistance movement? How is this reality of seeing who the military actually is, what they're capable of doing what they are able to do without any hesitation? How is that changing the mindset of going forward?

Jon  1:03:37

Yeah, this military, so how they have treated us and how they, how they've tried to control us. It's so for me, I'm one of the person who actually doesn't have any political knowledge or political background. So but like, even also Suchi, and speech and all that stuff. Like she had something that's like freedom from fear. So but so this military is actually like, have used like, fear tactics on us, right, like to win us over by brute force, or like by showing them like, like making us fear of them. This is the only thing that they have actually used to live up to think because like, the military itself, fears that they will lose power, right? So I think for this battle and for this revolution, and all the movement and in the fight, I guess like one thing that can throw you off the fight is when you fear your enemy, the enemy becomes bigger than whatever like what he is. Yes, so I think first and I right now, one year for the revolution when the revolution happened, like, and when we call it a revolution it was actually on the revolution day of the history. So on the 27th of March, that was a revolution day and they the army change it to Armed Forces Day. But um, yeah, Army, change it to Armed Forces Day, but then on the 27th when we went, when I was actually out at that time again to so when I come back, I went back onto the road and saw the last protest. It was, yeah, it was quite extreme. And yeah, it has turned into revolution. So yeah. For me, I think it's like now, like, when I come back, come back out. What I've noticed from the army is like, actually, they are also quite scared of us as much as, like, we are offline, when they use the guns. Like for us, like we're only fearing is to constantly have right because, like, to be told they're not very bright and educated crowd. Like then institution, like, because they an outdated institution, and they survive from like, the tactics of 20 years ago. Right. So like, they still think Facebook, and I mean, they just the other day, they still think YouTube is, is bad for for the young kids, because you can search whatever stupid stuff on YouTube. Yeah, so they're quite an outdated, old fashioned institution. And they're run by like, I think the main call is run by more than monarchy. Like, they really teach these generals, they really want to be treated as kings. As far as my my story goes to our histories always have kings and kingdoms. Right? When, yeah, and then we got into British colony. And before, after British colony, all we know from our history is how to run a monarchy. So there was never democracy was never on. On The Planet of the economy, like a government system. Yeah. And so these people, they only know how to give orders. And they are trained not to question the orders. So like, so they've never questioned the orders. So? Yeah, so wherever the order came from, they, like they just do it out of fear. And, like, so the only way to win them is if they over overfilled. Right? So they're scared that if they don't follow the order, they will have to go to two times and they will have to, they will be punished for not following orders and whatnot. Yes, so but I think for us right now, like, with, with the revolution, and people on the political levels of fighting, and on the government's levels of firing again to so like from Generation Z, I think it has moving up generation or to this fight. Hence why now we're at this stage, because in the protest movements and hold of January, February, March, and yeah, up to February and March, like why we were only protesting but but like it was clearly wasn't working. And so now, but I so yeah, now like we as protesters, like we cannot protest anymore, because they are eliminating us as a threats. I will being seen as threats to be like destroyed. And that's how military is treating us. Military is treating his civilians, his own people as threat to their systems. So they're eliminating us. They're really trying to eliminate us like enemies. So like right now where we like so now we're only retaliating the response to the violence. Hi, so yeah, I think right now at the stage that we're in, right is just to get rid of the fear inside of us that they have placed upon us.

Host  1:10:06

Yeah, that's right. So fear is the classic playbook of the tatmadaw and instilling fear in the protesters from previous generations and the monks, when they would go out on the streets in the ethnic groups when, when when they would carry out attacks. They're Rakhine, Rohingya, of course, yeah. So this has always worked to this, they have been so inhumane and so cruel and so violent and randomly violent as well. That human nature of fear takes over in terms of the personal safety and safety of one's loved ones. And the possibility of surviving in a dark system becomes more compelling than the fear of fighting that system where anything could be taken at any moment's notice. But it seems like that playbook is having a different outcome now that those traps of fear and of negotiation within oneself suppression of that fear of not, not recognizing the the state of that fear or the response or the response to it, but I think suppression in previous generations has really been one psychological tool and dealing with it. Now, it seems that's not happening. What what's your take on that?

Jon  1:11:32

Yeah, I think like, now, we have progress so much, because, like, I think we, as a country was divided for so long. And I think what they've done has, or like, hum, Unitas to a different level that we couldn't do it with, like, by ourselves, I still hope that they cave, like, just because of this crew. Now. We understand to past 50 years of history, and how it was fabricated, and how bad it was structured and written. Because we were like, We were taught false histories for 20 years. Like, I mean, 10 years that I went to school, like, every night, the whole High School, the whole histories of every bit of the history that was taught in our school has been fabricated. To up to the tune test level, right? So we were like, actually, we didn't know what we were learning, but we will. So yeah, we thought like, okay, we will all make. So yeah, we will have the mind like, even in your mass. Even in your mass history, it was like old overly, how do you put it fictionalized rather than an actual history?

Host  1:13:09

And when did you realize that?

Jon  1:13:12

I mean, I own like, I realized it only

Host  1:13:18

at this time of this code, and what made you realize that what made the light bulb turn on in your mind that what you thought was history was fabricated?

Jon  1:13:30

Like, I mean, this was a bit when the coup happened, like, it was before the cruel It was a silly thing, but like, so we were taught. So there is four generals in pacom history of pacom. And in our book, like peace fortune was was written as one could, like one is so strong, he can go up, up and down a wave of swimming like 100 times in one day, right? Yeah, so this was in the textbooks and like, we were taught as kids for these peoples that strong level of things but as I grew older, like I haven't like I thought, like it's it's a strange mix between fiction and history. Because like we also like because of the religion also right like religion also have like all these weird like, not weird, but like, more holy type of strange legend to the histories. So yeah, like I never questioned it until someone pointed out, and salt lake someone pointed out in my knowledge, only around that night, around coop time are actually in prison actually. Yeah. So he was the only one he pointed out, like, the history of books, and then all that, then we learn. And that's when I realized, so it was like, like, right now. Cool. So in my home my 30s

Host  1:15:20

well, so prison was actually an educational experience for you and learning more about the real history.

Jon  1:15:25

Yeah, pretty much because I was thrown into this place with actual political prisoners. Right. So now I have the education of actually how some politics level works.

Host  1:15:39

So you mentioned how you got an education in politics and history. And you alluded just now to religion as well. So did this also affect your thinking in terms of Burmese Buddhism and your identity as a Buddhist and the Sangha was your thinking and understanding of this also affected in your newfound education?

Jon  1:16:07

Yes, like, definitely big time. How so? Um, so religion, religion itself, right. Like, because for me, up to my late 20s, I haven't actually like I was practice for this. I guess. I was only Buddhists in my practice. And I because my parents used to do it. Like my parents told me to do it. I was doing, like. So there was always like, waves and even marks and stuff. Right, like, so I would go to monkhood. And then like, before I was only doing because I was told to do so only in my late 20s. And like, by choice I went into monkhood. And that tried to discover again and how see how religion was actually constructed. Because for us for this 50 last year for this 50 years of our military dictatorship, they really tried to, like provide everyone using religion also as a platform to brainwash. Yeah, so yeah, we only started seeing all these things also, true crew and around crew. Like, for us, mainly it's Buddhism, right? And Buddhism doesn't actually have like a single person right? Now when people are praying, we're praying to this court among us okay. But Kodama Yeah. So, for now, studying a quarter mile was only a man practiced into having this state of mind. So, he actually yeah. So, anyway, my point was, so, because of all these, like, now, days in Yama, especially in Myanmar, we think we are like, closest to God and all these people who are doing the religious, all these religious people who are doing like insane institutionalized donations and Buddhist Buddhist things are kind of how to put it like capital life within the structures. Like so, a lot of people will donate to these monasteries, right? So monasteries will be having, like massive like a con rooms and monasteries, we'll be having all these TVs and monitors, we will be having all these facilities to make like the like the attendees better. So people will actually come and donate to the monastery to go through the practice and then like, just from donations now. A lot of the Yeah, a lot of the marks I think, are now caught up with like deep Buddhism itself and they preach with their own interest on self interest I yeah. Yeah, so I think that's when I'm like, I've kind of lost faith in the religion from from this, like, not losing faith in the religion but losing faith in people's thinking of religions because I it was actually quite sad. To see how like some of the monks turned up, and was just purely focused on his self interest and not the actual practice. Mm

Host  1:20:12

hmm. That's really interesting. So your identity and belief system within Buddhism, you're also seeing how that has been shaped and perhaps perverted, like so many other things through the militaries control of the country and using and perverting Buddhism and the monkhood and Burmese Buddhist teachings and culture and everything else, to have a more nefarious ends to serve their own purpose. And so embedded in this Burmese Buddhist identity and practice is, are these structures that are actually supporting and self serving the military? And so what that makes me curious about is, what would a new Burmese Buddhism going forward perhaps look like that was free of those influences? How can a monkhood and a practice and the teachings be preserved and be celebrated and embraced with this part taken out? And then that's probably a very theoretical question that we're not able to answer at this point. But it's also very interesting because historically, in Burmese Buddhism, it's this is what launched the world mindfulness movement, you know, the, there's, there's millions of the passionate practitioners all over the world, there's people who've never taken a passion, of course, but practice some kind of mindfulness. And this all comes from 19th century Myanmar before the time that I was formed. So there is this potential in this country for how it is able to embrace and propagate the teachings free of military influence that's extremely innovative and critical and masterful in its process, and its teaching. But we're in a stage now where so much of it has been infected by the military rule. So I wonder as you've been going through this self discovery yourself in terms of seeing that the history was fabricated, that the politics is made up, and that the Buddhism itself is is infected is stained by some of the militaries involvement, what ideas do you have going forward of what a Buddhist a Burmese Buddhist identity and practice and culture and monkhood could look like? That is managed to be free of the stain on it this

Jon  1:22:41

influence? Yeah, I think if you have to go into some bit of like, I will have to take it to back to how normal people normally were. Before right, before as in not before, but like chewing these times, like when a lot of the foreigners will ask, oh, how can you have so little and be so happy or like, be happy? I am excited because we're happy with what we have. And I think that's still to find us to these days. It's like, part of the drag from the Buddhism or like, the Burmese way of things is like, Yes, I have this and like, yeah, so sense of greed or like the need to get more or have more doesn't necessarily come to us naturally. So I think that is one. That is one point that we have, as per me. But I think what the military did and took advantage of it is is that military pulling us down to this poverty levels so low that people will force to be Yeah, people will force to lie, cheat and, like, bend in each other or like

Host  1:24:14

to step away set up a system that brought out the worst in human nature, and they encouraged

Jon  1:24:18

us to reach a certain stage, right? Yes, yes, exactly. So like I myself discovered it inside prison as well. It's when like, so there was 42 of us and then they moved us into a bigger cell and then put in another 40 people and becomes 80 of us. No, actually, it becomes 120 of us. So then they divided us. So they divided the whole room in half. And put put right anyway Separated people. But then. Yeah, and then when I was like when my family sent me some food, or like some good, yeah, so they actually managed to send me KFC into prison. So by that time, I had to make a choice of like, like who do I? Like I? Because I've been sharing my food with everyone inside, right? And like, people are eating together with this, like 18 of us. Wheat, soy is Tomas. So we always eat together. And then it was like two pieces of chicken and two, Burger King. So I'm like, how am I gonna divide this? But yeah, so But luckily, a lot of my other friends were Muslim friends. So they didn't if they if it's not allowed, so then they will not eating. So I've managed to split that and then give it away to some of the people. But so like, I have to choose? Who would I give this away to? Right? So yeah, so I just choose people who will be of my, like, who will be of like, Who's of my best interest and like, who will be more important to me. So yeah, people who are so I give, I give my shelf, to the people who are close to me. And then people who potentially, like helping me out will help me in the future, in this day in the prison. So I think this is how the military had done it to my parents. So my parents generation and the previous generation of the survivor of ADA, revolutions, who remain in the country and survived, have survived to this to this climb of social

Host  1:27:05

inequalities, and how did they survive? What What did they learn to do? Or were manipulated to do to survive through that controlled system? Oh, yeah,

Jon  1:27:17

that one? So much of it was it's like hustling way, right? Because, like, how much has survived to all these things was like, so now he can he actually have friends from both sides of parties, in this stage, in your muscle, my because he the businessman, so they have to learn how to, like, adapt and get things done with the word cooperation in cooperation with the military, which is one skill that I will never be able to do. Yeah, because even now, I can never bribe someone. Like if someone does a good job, I'm happy to like pay for them for the job that they carry. And then like I could never make myself to bribe people to get

Host  1:28:12

things done. So it sounds like this fear was not just a, it was a fear of everything and everyone. It wasn't just a fear of what the military would do to the people. But it was also a fear that even when the military wasn't present, it was a self censorship. And it was a fear of what one could get captured with or what one could say or do that would get one in trouble. And so that fear prevented certain actions and conversations from even happening. But then it was also a fear of one another, it was a fear of the different ethnic groups and geographical regions and religions and, and everything else. So it so even so the trick was that was played was that even when the military disappeared? There, Myanmar is such a diverse country. And there was a fear between one group and another, where the military didn't even have to do anything. They just had to kind of set it up for that fear to play out and then light a match to it. And we certainly saw that a couple years ago with the Rohingya crisis. But in this these present days after the coup, that those fear tactics, both fear of the other and fear of the brutality of the military, it seems like that's not really taking hold those time. No, definitely

Jon  1:29:33

not. And, um, and that's the best bribe like we see at the end. is like, two days I'm thankful for, in this coolest, like military, like actually seeing military as a common enemy and everyone uniting into one human being, we're all Human being right. Because Yeah, as you mentioned is why, like the mind super diverse and it was, like military has. So like me personally, even in Rohingya case, like about brainwashed into military, some of military is false news. And like I got to well from how military actually is an act of military actually is changed changing or have changed a bit? So like, yeah, even after minute if after, even after, after Rohingya crisis, I wasn't thankful I wasn't on the military side, right. But like I some of the fake news got to me and then it was like, Oh, so then yes, so then my point of view change a bit. But like right now, for the after this coup? It was, it was so good in a sense, when everyone did the, everyone did long Jew protests, and start hanging woman's longji on the streets, because the

Host  1:31:05

soldiers were afraid to cross under the women's women's undergarments and, and lower skirts.

Jon  1:31:13

Yeah. So in the history there were so it's past the religious factor also. Right. But which, like, in today's modern world, like, which seems to teach you less and stupid, right? Well, I

Host  1:31:27

would actually I would defer, I would say that's a quality of superstition go there's nothing in Buddhism that would support that view that that is a superstitious, superstitious cultural value that is very separated from the teachings of the Buddha 2500 years ago. Yes.

Jon  1:31:44

So there is a lot of that still happening in Myanmar. And, and this group has washed off a lot of all those superstition things and, and what actual Buddhism is, yeah, and that spirituality, right? So

Host  1:31:59

what is actual Buddhism and spirituality, if it's separated the wheat from the shaft? That's if it's if it's found a way to weed out the silly and stupid superstition and cultural beliefs? What is left of what is valuable in that religion? for you personally? How are you grappling with and understanding your Buddhist identity? What are the values of the Buddhist teachings today?

Jon  1:32:32

For me, I don't see Buddhism as a religion. I only say Buddhism as practice. And yeah, so I only see Buddhism as a,

Host  1:32:47

as a practice and what's that practice?

Jon  1:32:51

And it's like credit to my dad as well, like, he have trained me in a way so and through some of the monks that my family and some of the month and I know from all the teaching, I've realized that it's only a practice to the mind because mind is such a complex. And yeah, complex human brain and the mind is such a complex structure that, like, if we can give it enough practice, then we can just live life easy.

Host  1:33:34

And what is that practice for you?

Jon  1:33:37

Okay, yeah. Um, so, like, for me, the, the practice of this mindfulness that Buddha Buddha suggested and how he see them, I demand a thing like it's the, it's the attractors, like, if we so I only see it as practice and not as religion also, it's because I, when I look at, like, when you actually look back at all the religions and the basic fundamentals, it's all the same, right? Like, there's things that we cannot like, like chill and other human beings like or like, come on, and this means that we cannot like steal or we cannot. So, those are all some of those like morals, living morals, everyday rules are on our line, like in all of almost all religions as in the religion side, as far as I know. Yeah, so even like so if I took those away and then like, and then tried to see Buddhism as a religion, and then like, and then there was all these clouded of Spirituality and spirituality was that superstitions of the old ways and, and the culture superstitious beliefs. So yeah, if you take out all those all that is left from what Buddhists have said, and all that is, like, it's all self practice. So yeah, I think self practice is actually what can give me like a proper practice to, to my own hobbies collecting a piece type of thing. Because every day we're struggling with, like, everyday we're struggling with. With a, we're struggling with the daily task of depression and all these effects of from other people and all, you know, your brain is taking in all these informations and processing into different emotions and all that. And I think I feel that Buddhism and the practice that, like, yeah, the practice of Buddhism is too. Just clear all those like to keep refreshing you on your daily basis, right. So I think I feel like if you can refresh your mind everyday, that is, obviously

Host  1:36:25

you're talking of course, now about the basic human condition, no matter where we are in life, the existence of suffering and of Duka, the unpleasant mental states, mental complexes like depression, anger, other things like that, and how the daily practice of the Buddhist teachings give us a certain freshness and letting go and dealing with these difficult states that come. However, you and everyone in Myanmar now are not living in a normal state, you are living in a state of terror, and where where things are happening every day that are just impossible for those of those of us outside the process and even comprehend how they could be happening. So as interesting as it is to look at the value of this Buddhist practice in normal daily life, I'm especially curious about the state that you're living in of the the fear, the panic, the brutality, being imprisoned, the types of security you have to do every day, the conversations you're having. Has your background, the Buddhist practice played a role in helping you mentally and perhaps even physically, emotionally in any other way to manage the stress and the trauma of these extraordinary circumstances.

Jon  1:37:48

Yeah, it has. It has to a certain point throughout my journey, because I because all the so out of for all the days in prison, right, there was no. Right on for the first couple of weeks, I could stay still. I could maintain really strong spiritually because of, I think, because of all the practice that I've had. Yeah, it was just to like, Yeah, when, even when things were quiet. I mean, like, even when I'm in prison, and I'm like, it was already like, 10 days in like, we can see like a lot of people just different people coping in different ways. And like, like, I can see a lot of friends like for them got arrested together, they were friends. And then like, they flee, blame one person and like, yeah, so like, a lot of all these complex human emotions and response came out in prison. So it definitely helped me through my journey of how, how I was acting back then and now. Yeah, but I think like one thing that Buddhism is not me. Like, not Buddhism, but that superstition thing is flocking, also again into Buddhism is like, mean, Tao shall not kill us. Right? Right now it's the revolution and how you're gonna win a war if you don't want to kill it.

Host  1:39:39

Yeah, that's a question that many people are grappling with is the revolution started out. Non violently. The people protesters were completely committed to the idea of non violence for a long time. And even though violence hasn't really broken out in any big way, yet. There have been some small incidences, and there's been a lot of discussion among those in the resistance movement of how how people can win, basically, what gives you the better chance of winning? Is it? Is it a complete and utter commitment to non violence? Or is it moving into violence in some kind of strategic way. And then of course, there's the religious element behind there's the spiritual element behind have, as you said, All religions have some version of Thou shall not kill in Buddhism, it's the five precepts. And the most important of those five is not harming any other living beings. That includes even insects. I mean, you're not even supposed to swat away a mosquito that is biting you as you're sitting for meditation or doing anything else. So where do you stand with that both from a strategic level in terms of wanting to win, wanting to uproot this evil that has been in your country and controlling your culture for so long? And as well in a religious level of being committed to these teachings, and yet facing this impossible, terrible situation?

Jon  1:41:06

Yeah, that's one thing I'm trying to train myself now to, is like, because I mean, torsional killing, like killing another human being is also a token, or a toll. It's not just a tool, like it's not an easy step. Just to kill another person is like, yeah, it's one person have to put a lot of toll on their spirituality, it's how I see it, or like, like, yeah, like, someone has to prepare mentally a lot to kill another person, right? Like, I think these soldiers are doing it easily because they were, this is their daily life. This is how they will train and this is how they will brainwashed, or this is how they will talk. But like, right now, a lot of the people are turning, like, I mean, sadly, a lot of young people have to turn to holding weapons to fight them back again. Because, like, as I studied the enemy, right, as I have studied, and like, as I've seen, how military operates and how military runs, like, play a knock going down and like, if, like, the type of opponent that will not, I mean, they have come so they came up with guns. So if you don't, if you don't fight guns with cons, then you're never gonna win, right? So I think like when someone is trying to, like slash, when, like, in history, when someone is trying to win the dance, like summarise will also fail, right? So like, you need guns to fight comes, right? It's the equal equal. How do you call it equal, balanced in power, time needs to retaliate by like, ice, there's only two ways I see it in for this battle and like to go if we want to go non violently, like to think like, we have to prepare to die. Like, if we don't want to kill, we have to be prepared to be killed. And a lot of people have to do that. And a lot of people have to show that. And a lot of people will die for it. But how can you change one man's ego? Like if he if he if he lives in this oblivious little bubble? And if he doesn't hear about all this news about all this debt, or if you choose not to listen to all these news and all these debt, he can easily still, like, like clear with clear conscience pray every day. And like, with clear conscience might live on with his life and then, you know, keep keep giving these brutal orders to retaliate, whatever happens because he, like, ignorance is suppressed in that way. Right? Like, I feel like that's why some superstitions and some, all these I feel like I call some cooperation on some of the Buddhists, or like some of the religious superstitions ways is like, yeah, so how is he going to go to hell, if he doesn't know he's committing a crime? Right, like, if one person doesn't know that he's committing a crime, then he will not call it out. Right? Like so. Yeah. So all these concept of religion and all that makes me question is all those things but yeah, so for for them to, like lay down their weapons like you have to go into the room, point a gun to their head and tell them to lay down their weapon is how I say

Host  1:45:00

Right. And that's certainly the question that everyone is talking about right now going forward. And the resistance is how where do they fall on this violent? violence, non violence question what what is going to be the wane strategy. And if one is choosing, as you say, to go towards non violence, it takes an enormous amount of courage and knowing the brutality that's in front of you, if one is going to support some kind of some degree of violence, then one has to be prepared to break this most sacred of human religious values that you find across all teachings. And so this is yet another instance, where the tatmadaw has brought out the worst in human nature and having to make this decision which, you know, anyone who's not living in this moment in Myanmar, really can't begin to understand what it's like mentally to start to go through this process.

Jon  1:46:03

Yeah, but I think like right now, and our advantage, and like, since day one, how everyone's been acting, is like, if everyone still works, then we can still reach to the goal, right? When everyone push remove, like, is, as cliche as it sounds, like, like, as cliche as it sounds, I still know that a lot of people just need to still know who the common enemies and just like, if they can't do more than that, like, they don't have to do it, but they have to do it to the level that they've committed to. Right. So right now, because I was sent to prison. And like, so I have, right. Now I'm a bit late to, like, push myself into going into army or joining the army or like the Resistance Army on the Federal Army. So a lot of the people and a lot of the young people have actually moved and like gone into trainings. From since Yeah, so since things have gotten taught. So since we've got this new government and like a new energy government says, like people in support to this energy, new government, so now people are moving into training to be in the inside the army and whatnot. So those people are doing those things already. So like, right now, Me Myself, I think, I don't think I have the mentality or, like, the physicality or Yeah, or anything to hold the gun or weapon. Right. Because Yeah, because I don't think I can do it. But I'm, there's a lot of people who can do it. And there's a lot of people who are going to do it. And so I think, as long as I take action, supporting them in, in their, into the was, like, as long as I can, like, try to direct everyone like, okay, yeah, as long as we can. We can go in the way that everyone's pushing, but everyone's driving to the same goal. And I think we still, it's like, an achievable goal still.

Host  1:48:41

So what do you think is the winning strategy now, at this point in the resistance movement? What do you think has the best chance of being successful?

Jon  1:48:55

Thank thing right now, like, because they're really trying to govern the whole country, right? And before it works, like before, like before, before it has it, they've done it before and it works before. So pause right now and put the difference of the new government in all the international support and international media support and on that, they do. Like they, as long as they know they cannot govern us. I think that is like the winning move for us like to keep showing that we cannot be like yeah, we cannot be something like so now with the new government and the revolution and all the epi ntnu all these millet level, solid ethnic armies because the army screws are treating them As verbose and I've tried to fight them off as levels. So by now they really trying to, like, control the main cities. So like when FCM Gong and Mandalay in town g can show the resistant and said that we will not be covered. And then I think and then slowly, like fight off their soldiers, right? Because a lot of like I think now even as well a lot of the soldiers are not dedicated fighters, like we are revolution armies are dedicated fighters while they were training the dedicated fighters and whatnot. So like if that if the fighters have been injured the fighters job then they and politicians are going to do the politicians jobs. And so if we actually managed to deliver on every level of play, so like, yeah, me as a filmmaker. So now all I can maybe if I can just to a filmmakers job, but you know, apply this to the revolution. And that's Yeah, so I think that's the goal, though, I think we can go now. If we're gonna go long term, then then we should go in that towards the same direction still, which is opposing this literal regime and trying to take down this military government? And trying to do it as fast as we can in this couple of days? I mean, not couple days or a couple months.

Host  1:51:41

Right? Right. And you are a filmmaker, I'm glad you brought that up you professionally trained in Sydney, Australia. And you came back to me in March, when the reforms were taking place. And there was more freedom and more possibility and you work commercially. And I was gonna ask you about that. So now that we're in this moment of resistance and the revolution, and everyone is putting their skills to use for supporting this movement that's going on? What have you been doing with your filmmaking? Have you made anything? Or if you haven't yet produced something? Do you have something in mind for how you'd what you'd like to do with your skills as a filmmaker?

Jon  1:52:27

So from the first week, onwards, in my protest movements, I actually started filming on the streets. So they found we actually took out the camera and then did like a, like a documentary type of interviews. To some a lot of the people. So I think I managed to interview that at least 20 people while while protests were happening, so yeah, like, since since the protests happen. And then since I was, like, since we were out protesting on the street, I tried to use my skill of knowledge applied to this battle, to I was doing introduce, and then I was in two days of edit. So just about to finalize the Edit. And then I got arrested.

Host  1:53:31

Oh, gosh, if you pick that up again.

Jon  1:53:35

So I haven't picked up again, because the editor had to run and be okay. So, yeah, so I'm still in the process of trying to get the data back into my hand, and then trying to try to work it out.

Host  1:53:53

Right, right. Well, I know it's getting late there. And I thank you so much for staying up with us and being able to share this and I want to close with the last question. Going back to your spiritual practice, we were talking a bit about the household that you grew up in the gratitude you had for your father and your family for bringing in certain specific monks and traditions that allowed you to learn some of the more true essence and practice of the teachings rather than falling into more of the superstitions and organized religion. And we never got a chance to hear exactly which practice you and your family were engaged in. So I'd be really curious to hear a bit more specifically or technically, were there lineages that you were involved in as you were practicing meditation or were there particular monks techniques?

1:54:51

What what kind

Host  1:54:52

of practice were you doing and are you doing now?

Jon  1:54:56

I think like, we like we don't Yeah the lineage or anything, but the practice we do is just normal. The Tierra Juana way so just a breathing exercise to nose Yeah. So um and i think like for me as well, like one of my friend topper one of my sentiment This is when he said like so one of the one of the oldest way that the police have economy Coronavirus used. So the one of the old practice that the coder might use and the monks use, right like was to just focusing on the breathing and in and out and the the awareness of the

1:55:56

presence

Jon  1:55:58

is the practice that like, yeah, my dad has used and taught us. And when I was in my monkhood I was I like there was three or four different ways for me to do this practice. Like there's one way of the 10 days to treat 10 days to treat and then there is I think 30 days to treat and 20 live or live here. So those like, or 10 days but no 10 day. Like no speaking retreat as well. Yeah, so yeah, I didn't do any of those like, other practice, but I only tried to go into the monkhood because of the because of the culture and the tradition also. Like Yeah, so being a monk really kind of puts me into that state of where when I experienced it, it was like a whole whole nother level of he living style. I like so yeah, so it was like it was. So the basic monkhood living style is by not needing to live with any other human attachment like human world attachments. Like, yeah, so from what I've learned is like to go into that is just to not have attachment. And so yeah, they're basically trying to not get you to attach from whatever your old self is, or like, whatever, have whatever I have attached to you before. If I don't have any attachment from the other, up to the outside wall, then I'll happily be in monkhood. Because even when I was in 20s, and when I was, like, staying there as a monk, yeah, like one thing I thought of, I could easily live as a monk if I'm not, like entitled to, like come back out to do some responsibilities for social responsibilities. Right? Like, like to the parents and to the families. And yeah, if I didn't have any of those, or if I'm ready to leave behind all of those.

Host  1:58:22

Yeah, not certain. Certainly one of the real beautiful and unique acts aspects of modern me and Mar to me is the fact that this monkhood is still so vibrant, that despite the factors we talked about before the military culture and the organized religion, all aspects of superstition sinking in, and seeping in, I should say to the two different parts of it, there still is the possibility despite that of someone who wants to renounce the world for a short or a longer period of time, and develop detachment, to live a simple lifestyle, to live off the charity of others to follow a set of moral precepts and to benefit and to grow spiritually. And doing so within a structure place in the society where you're actually being supported by society. And you're giving back to society all while in one kind of way, being outside of it, and allowing being able to achieve your own spiritual growth. And that's something that in the modern world, is so rare to find where there's actually a place in the societal structure where you can seek your own salvation, and it's to the benefit of everyone. So it's a really beautiful part of the culture that that is able to happen. And you know, despite the horrors and the tears that are happening now, I hope that it's something that will soon be able to continue to happen and it's a traditional And simple form again. Yeah, I

Jon  2:00:01

think like the numbers have dropped. But definitely, there's still this culture of it has been passed on. But yeah, for me personally Self Realization now it's like, like, I don't actually need to practice Buddhism to be actually need to be a monk to practice Buddhism right? Now, Buddhism is all around us. And we could practice in, like, yeah, there's no shape and form we can actually meet us. Because it's just a way of asexually just a way of life that we should be practicing. By being a monk was only being a monk and detaching all these human needs and pains is also like just a training for you to train your mind to not be attached to all these days, so then you're not distracted by,

Host  2:00:57

right. And if you're able to find any measure of practice, or awareness, or mindfulness, at this moment with what you're going through now, you know, that is a kind of training grounds, a terrible training grounds, but a training grounds nonetheless, of being able to observe the mind in ways that will, you know, hopefully bring about quite a bit of wisdom and compassion going forward. Yeah. So with that, I know it's quite late for you. And I thank you so much for taking the time to join us and to share everything you have about such a wide ranging conversation and wishing you to be safe for the movement to be successful and for you to grow in your spiritual practice as everything continues.

Jon  2:01:45

Cheers. Thanks. Well, thanks for the opportunity and giving the time for me to actually speak out about all these as well.

Host  2:02:39

And if you have found their story of value, please consider taking a further step beyond just being the listener and become an active supporter. Any donation you provide is now being sent to me and Maher to help those people being impacted by the current crisis. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. every cent goes immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. Donations go to support such causes as a civil disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guests you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website, which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me slash better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and cash app. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts, or email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma one word, spelled b e t t e r bu r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration.

2:04:55

What am I gonna do we are done under the gun. Yeah, and

2:05:03

yada, yada yada, yada yada, yada, yada.

Host  2:05:32

You've been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we'd appreciate it very much. If you could rate review and or share this podcast, every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes. If you can't find our feed on your podcast player, please just let us know and we'll ensure it can be offered there in the future. Also, make sure to check out our website for a list of our complete episodes, including additional text videos and other information available at Insight myanmar.org. And I also invite you to take a look at our new nonprofit organization at better burma.org. There's certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a POST request specific questions and join in on discussions currently going on. On the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You're also most welcome to follow our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter accounts by the same name. If you're not on social media, feel free to message us directly at info at Insight myanmar.org. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know can we can share that form here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible. Currently, our team consists of two sound engineers, Mike pink and Martin combs. There's of course Zach Kessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with editing and a special Mongolian volunteer who was asked to remain anonymous does our social media templates. In light of the ongoing crisis in Myanmar, a number of volunteers have stepped in to lend a hand as well. And so we'd like to take this time to appreciate their effort and our time of need. And we're always on the lookout for more volunteers during this critical time. So if you'd like to contribute, definitely let us know. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us in arranging for the guests we've interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves, for agreeing to come on and share such personal powerful stories. Finally, we're immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We want to remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect the hosts or other podcast contributors. Please also note that as we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show. There's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us this recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes video, audio written transcripts or excerpts of any episodes. Also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we're very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. If you would like to support our mission, we welcome your contribution. During this time of crisis. All donations now go towards supporting the protest movement in Myanmar. To our new nonprofit that are Burma. You may give by searching better Burma on paypal Venmo cash app, GoFundMe and patreon as well as via credit card at better burma.org slash donation. You can also give right on our Insight Myanmar website is all donations given there are directed towards the same fund. And with that, we're off to work on the next show. So see you next episode.

2:10:17

Yo yo