Transcript: Episode 14: COVID-19 in Myanmar, Exiled Expat Edition
Following is the full transcript for the interview about expats who left Myanmar during the pandemic, which appeared on July 4, 2020. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:00
For many people around the world in this time of COVID-19, life has become fraught, unbalanced and discomforting. Moreover, for meditators, particularly those whose heart is connected to the Dhamma and the golden land. It's very hard to get information on how the pandemic is affecting things here. We wondered how we could do our part to help brighten people's day just a bit and provide that information. So we changed our normal run of interviews to bring you this new series, which examines how the Coronavirus is specifically affecting monasteries across Myanmar and meditators around the world. Continue to check the Insight Myanmar podcast feed for upcoming episodes related to this topic. We know this is a challenging time for many out there and hope all our listeners are staying physically safe and mentally sound.
01:16
If we are complacent and don't do really aggressive containment and
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mitigation, that number could go
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way up many many millions to be
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isolating patients emphasizing social distancing
01:28
Coronavirus is now
01:32
that COVID-19 can be characterized as one of the worst affected countries
01:38
the business supply chains
01:40
are being disrupted around the globe this combination of people
01:50
Coronavirus outbreak is now
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we will realize, see an
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opportunity in these situations.
02:00
Please make your compassion
02:03
to the people
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COVID-19
02:10
become more supportive.
02:16
It's time to to grow and
02:19
kick out
02:20
your negative mind become closer to each other, please send a message to all over the wall
02:27
all over the universe. See change.
02:32
And less, work hard. More and more.
02:36
On Sunday more loving kindness. People come out in the time whichever chappelow thing you
02:45
do see some positive aspects of this Corona crisis we all waiting and we see that in a sense, that brings people also closer together, people getting closer together and watching out for each other. We have more time for our families for the community. And time to meditate, please make your compassion and loving kindness.
David Sudar 03:08
It was kind of like shoot very
Gary Leung 03:10
warm and very like kind of stabilize their heart. This reminder of this uncertainty of life where we don't know see what we can do and what we cannot do, what we can accomplish and what we cannot remember peace in the face of suffering.
Host 03:34
Should I stay or should I go? Who would have thought that the clashes 1982 hit would be the perfect soundtrack for a dumber podcast episode. Yet the refrain so aptly characterizes the decision faced by today's guests. For an ex pats meditators and former monastics that it ends up being a seamless fit. The speakers you are about to hear. We're in Myanmar trying to figure out what to do and where to go as the pandemic became more serious. While all eventually made the choice to return home. In some cases, catching what may well have been the last flight out. They were faced with stressful and confusing circumstances with urgent decisions that had to be made quickly and without the advantage of knowing all the facts ahead of time. Our first two speakers are American expats who have been living and working in Myanmar, one in Yangon and the other in Mandalay, and whose initial interest in going to the country was largely motivated by the possibility of spending their free time pursuing Dhamma practice. The similarity running through their tails is remarkable. They talk of city life that was at first barely affected by the growing pandemic. Then, as things got more serious. They initially resisted the idea of abandoning their current home, but soon realized that staying there was no longer tenable. There followed a chaotic last week full of chaotic travel plans hurried goodbyes And finally, a tearful departure from a rich dynamic environment. They had come to appreciate so deeply upon landing back in the US, they both struggled with the culture that was much more materialistic than the country they left and a society seemingly be wrapped of Dhamma. While they tried to apply the meditative tools, they learn to help themselves get adjusted to life back in America. It was not a smooth transition, and they had a difficult time getting their meditation back on track. speaking honestly and vulnerably both left off the interview, not totally sure what was next in store for them. The two other speakers in contrast, hadn't gone to Myanmar for work opportunities, but solely for extended Dhamma practice, an Australian and an American. They had both formerly worn monk's robes but were now lay Yogi's. Unlike the previous two guests, they did not have an open ended stay nor a home and the golden land and had a definite return ticket in hand. So their songs were framed was more like should I try to stay on or just go home. Both were in the midst of intensive practice while on a monastery retreat when the pandemic broke, and had to rely on delayed and intermittent updates on the severity of the situation before the travel plans materialized. One of them had to weather a debilitating illness at the one time you really don't want to be sick, while the other had to cut short a pilgrimage because foreigners were no longer being accepted at Burmese monasteries. And he had to scramble to move up his returned flight. Both Yogi's had to quarantine themselves when they got back, one at his Portland apartment and the other and his childhood bedroom and his parents home and Sydney as they settled back into life in their home countries, both maintain their strong Dharma practice with an emphasis on generating compassion for others. One felt a deep sense of interconnectedness with others through contemplating and nocta non self and the other began guiding and helping meditators dealing with fears and worries bubbling up due to the pandemic on zoom sessions. in their own way, these four different tales convey an overarching dhama theme, the unpredictability of life, each of them face significant instability and disruption, losing jobs or having to forego plans with Burmese monasteries closing their doors, and all this complicated by worried parents pleading for an imminent return. As individuals, they relate to this unpredictability in their own ways. One meditator speaks of previous disruptions in life, somewhat preparing them for this one, while another observes that the scale of the disruption caused by the pandemic is a completely new and unsettling experience for many Westerners. meditators included this theme of the inherent instability of life highlights the truth that we have nothing more valuable to depend on than our own practice. It also highlights a sense of urgency and prioritizing what matters most in life. And after all, what matters more than taking time to observe the mind and come out of suffering? In other words, moments of crisis simplify and affirm what's truly important, and how to make best use of our time, which is our meditation practice. This meditation practice provides balance, strength, insight and compassion. And the guests on this episode stress not only the value of practice, but the sense of urgency for practice. Though each one story is different in many details, they all point in their own way towards this sense of importance and urgency in all of our practice. Given the sense of urgency, let's get right on to our guests so that you can hear from them in their own words. May their experiences light up your own sense of urgency to practice during this unusual period. The next speaker Jose Molina, is an American expat and meditator who has been in Myanmar for several years. He had planned to stay in Yangon and weighed out the pandemic but after a change of mind decided to head back to the US on one of the last flights out. He recorded this from his home in New England.
Jose Molina 08:39
I lived in Yangon for two and a half years actually almost to the day which is a strange coincidence. And as the Coronavirus started gaining steam around the world and causing you shutdowns and quarantines in different countries, my experience of it was mostly that this seemed like some sort of hysterical paranoia on the part of other nations. Because in Myanmar, nothing had happened. Literally nothing. No precautions, no shutdown of anything, life was quite normal. And of course, you'd hear from family and friends at home in the States on American or even the through my own mother friends in Yangon from you know what things were like in their home countries in Australia, Britain, Canada, India, what have you, you know, mostly what you would hear from people, you know, expats from developed countries were just shocking and totally incompatible with, you know, our lived reality and yet gone. You know, the things that we've all come to know of course, you know, lockdown The sheltering in place. All of these things that have become, you know, common experiences for people were just nowhere to be found in Yangon. Like I business was just continuing completely as usual in my life and the lives of all my friends. In fact, I can recall one specific thing that did happen maybe couple of weeks before I ended up leaving, which is that my squash sports club closed down by order of the government or the the sports facilities in the checkouts on sports ground were closed. And I was, you know, completely irate about this, because this was like, the only impact that it was having. And, you know, obviously, this sounds like laughable or ridiculous, or possibly offensive to people in countries that, you know, like Spanish people or whatever, who are stuck in their apartments for, you know, weeks on end already at that point. You know, I was beside myself that the sports club was unavailable. But that was the only thing you know, so it seemed really out of place. I was like, why would you shut this down? There's no impact on anything, you know, anywhere else? Why can't I just go play squash afterwards? This is ridiculous. In fact, even to underscore the point I went to Chiangmai for like, a long weekend, just prior to leaving had gone for, like a few weeks before. I mean, I traveled on a flight to Thailand flight was quite cool. Chiang Mai itself, which is a tourist area was certainly very quiet by Chiangmai standards. But it was not a ghost town. I mean, it was it was heavily impacted. I don't want undersell it. But but certainly you didn't feel like, I didn't feel like I was being a fool marching into, you know, a quarantine zone with no regard for my safety. What it really seemed like was it this winter season was ending and the tourists were filtering out of Chiang Mai anyway. And this was somewhat exacerbated by a bit of a scare. And so prices were low. And that was agreeable for me. I mean, this, this was the experience. And if anyone is listening to this, in the developed world, it must sound like I was on a different planet. But that's certainly what it felt like. Anyway, how I came to leave Myanmar was Despite this, you know, appearance that everything was totally fine. In mid March, sort of late March, I guess, actually, the impact was encroaching, you know, because of business, you know, projects were slowing down because, you know, technical experts could not fly from Europe or wherever they were coming in from projects, clients were starting to put their their own employees travel on hold and, and shutdown projects for indeterminate amounts of time. And so you're not a consultant. So that started to impact us. And again, for the way that we were living, this seemed like, boy, this is a great headache. Why are all these people doing this? This is very stupid. We're just, we're just marching on here. There's nothing restricting our ability to implement our projects. This is a real shame that these other countries are going bananas like this. And so this was still the status. And then in one week in March, things began to change very, very quickly. The as I recall, the Australian and British embassies both put out very strongly worded statements to their citizens that if they wanted to return to their home countries, they should do so very soon, because travel was going to become very difficult. And basically, as I experienced it, essentially, every Australian and British person and Yang gone left in, you know, 72 hours, they were like, all gone. Hundreds 1000s I don't know like a lot just disappeared. And this was the big sea change. This is where everyone started to think like Hold on a second. Maybe things are really going to change here to like they have changed everywhere else. And so, in short order, three days, three days. On Thursday morning, it became clear that my job was not really guaranteed to last in an indefinite work stoppage. And so I basically negotiated a severance package and liquidated all of my assets. I just gave away as much as I could to colleagues and friends and anything they didn't want basically went to the security man at my house. And early on Sunday morning, I was on a plane back to the US. But you know, still, you know, when I left Yang gone, that was Saturday night I went out with some friends too, you know, Have a bite to eat and be social on the Saturday night, so really, you know, even 12 hours before I left, I was still living in a world in which COVID was basically a complete abstraction except for the fact that the shadow of it, it cost me my job. But again, my lived reality was no change at all. Again, except for the missing squash club, that was still the biggest problem, the biggest change in my day to day life. And then I arrived in the US, you know, a couple days later to a essentially like a completely different universe. So, beginning of the time that I arrived in Myanmar, in October of 2017, I was very fortunate to live very close to chinmayi meditation Center, which is for those people who don't know, Chen Mei Santa is a very well respected and well established older Santa in, in Myanmar, and he has a number of centers and then one of them is in Yangon city. And the although that meditation center is mostly for Burmese people. They also have a small building for long term foreign Yogi's, it has its own Hall and, you know, dormitory, whatever. And although I was not obviously a long term retreat, and I was just a person living in the city, I went to the Santa who seems to be the, the the guy who effectively runs it operationalizes it on a day to day basis, who's saying, Oh, sobhita, and I explained my situation that I'm working in the city, but I would like I would like to sit and practice at the, at the center whenever I could. And he agreed to that. And he was he was very supportive, and allowed me to do that. And so I went there most mornings before work for two and a half years. And then sometimes on the weekend, and sometimes on the way home from work. Also. I don't know, I'd say, of the days that I spent in Yangon. I, I don't know, the days that I was at chemique that were like 90% of my days, but maybe I mean, it was pretty close. So that place is very dear to my heart. I think my practice really, really advanced there. Although it was a sort of strange experience, because I wasn't very, like immersed in the, in the center. You know, the center is mostly geared toward Burmese people. And like I said, long term retreat. And so I was a bit of an odd duck there. I just sort of showed up, did my practice and left and then, you know, occasionally donated meals. And then there were some circumstances where a senior monk was was traveling through and would help me practice, learn some chanting and some things. So I mean, I did I did some things there. But mostly it was just a space that they they allowed me to practice in more or less autonomously, I would say. And so, you know, I really grew to like that room, I would say that I'm more sentimental about the foreigners haul at Jamaica than I am about any other single thing in Myanmar. You know, by far, I'm very, very attached to that little hole. And you know, that's it's a testament to the supportive atmosphere that the supporters of Chinmay Santa created there. And, you know, they they say to himself, you fostered that I had such a great time there. So, anyway, when I went to leave the sort of last weekend, I was bombing around town trying to do my bits and bobs before I left Saturday, I think, you know, I went there, and I paid my respects to say to sobhita, who, you know, for all intents and purposes in my life. So we thought was was demand there, you know, Chen Mei himself, I saw one time in two and a half years, he was basically sort of an abstraction, you know, but sobhita was the guy who, you know, was indulgent of my position and supportive of me practicing there, even though it was, you know, not the part of the usual thing that went on there. And, of course, as we know, Fermi's are quite fond of the usual thing. And when I went to pay my respects to sobhita, I was I actually felt very emotional and felt choked up and sort of almost cheery, which was, I mean, it's hard to explain, I guess that like, this was coming. pletely shocking experience to me was like, I did not see that coming at all. Because like I said, my practice did advance a lot, but, but I never felt really connected to the center, it was kind of like my own personal thing that I just did there. But I came to see that the, you know, the generous spirit, and the sort of silent support in the background of sobhita was, was very, very important to me. And so leaving that was actually quite a heavy blow. And I think, you know, now being in the US, you know, I can see that having that sort of supportive practice atmosphere is really, really important, and really valuable and not, you know, something to just, you know, take for granted at all. So, yeah, that's why I think I was really was pretty bummed about it. And just to contextualize this, I guess, for people. I am not overly sentimental about Myanmar as a whole, like, at all. But, you know, apparently, I, I really, really love Gen miika. So now that I'm in the US, like a lot of people now in the COVID era, my life is quite unsettled, and working remotely for a while, but, you know, I didn't have, you know, a separate house to come back to in the US. So, now I'm at a ripe old age, at my mom's house. So, you know, I think most Westerners do not view this as a very positive experience to have. I mean, it's sort of positive, of course, it's been quality time, like, I love my parents, but it's certainly not how I was planning for my life to go. So, you know, with that context, I think a lot of people, you know, are in sort of some sort of similar situation, or maybe they've lost their jobs, maybe they haven't moved places, but they've lost their jobs or whatever, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of unsettledness in the mind, and my sitting is really just kind of a disaster, it's it's pretty, pretty hard to, to sit, I mean, even to sit for an hour is, like way harder than it was like a month or a month and a half ago. Like I get up a lot before the hour is over, which, you know, was essentially unheard of two months ago. I think there's just a sort of basic level of dis ease that has really come to the surface, probably for, you know, everyone in this situation. But lately, I'd say within the last week, I'm getting a bit better. And I think, am I getting better I have like a specific meaning in mind, which is that I think I'm really starting to do better dealing with, you know, the, like the inconstancy that surface, like the unease, you know, the three characteristics that have arisen. Because I think that my two cents on this is that, you know, the process of developing one's practice, I think, is just, you know, I view it sort of, in the simplest terms, sometimes it's like, just confronting the defilements. On a, you know, sort of systematically from the coarsest, most superficial defilements, just, you know, down, down down, like keep digging and digging and digging. Until, you know, you can confront the bigger ones and make your peace with the bigger ones and let the bigger ones go like this. This is kind of the game to me. That's how I conceptualize it sometimes. And I think for people who are from developed countries, who are in a position, you know, with a good economic situation and good health and things like this, it's pretty easy to have your practice revolve around confronting small instances of, you know, unsatisfactoriness impermanence and not self right, like, okay, we don't think of it that way. But actually, the stuff that we confront, that are manifestations of these things is like, pretty small fry on a day to day life, I'd say. And, you know, something like COVID really, really, to me brings the Buddhist teachings, like really to the front and center of like, you know, when the man says that all things are impermanent, and you know, there there is no reliable refugee shelter to be found in samsara, he really means that he doesn't mean like, oh, unless you're rich or your health is good, or your job is good, or you have a trust fund or none of them, then then then this doesn't apply to you, you know, he really means that the danger of samsara is real. And the extent to which your mind does not like it is real. And you've really got to wrestle with that. And so most of the time, I think we just do small wrestling, honestly. And COVID just puts a very, very large opponent in the ring. And it really, you see how you struggle when when the rug is pulled out from under you. And so now, this is all getting back to this. Now I'm getting to a point where like, Okay, I understand that this is the fight now. And I'm, I'm being deliberate about, Look, my, my practice time, isn't going to be really peaceful and great. And I'm not going to feel like, Oh, my concentration is really improving or whatever. Like, what I'm going to feel like, is, this is going to be a one hour war, because my mind is really agitated. Because like, my whole world is topsy turvy, like everyone else. Like, that's the challenge that is in front of me now. And, and you know, like, in the practice, you don't get to choose I don't think, what is the appropriate development? You know, you you have to deal with what comes up and like this is this is what's here now, you had to deal with it. So I'm trying to be more constructive now. But, um, but it's, it's been hard. I don't know, because of all that stuff. And then I guess one last thing to add to that is, it's also hard in the US, I think, because you're really on your own out here. Even though in Myanmar, like, in a certain sense, I was on my own because I didn't have so many Dharma friends. in Yangon, I had some foreign Dharma friends. But, you know, my practice was still mostly me, because I'm, you know, like, I'm not Burmese, like I was saying before. So, you know, it's kind of on my own before, but there's a huge asterisk on that, which is, you know, I was in a very, very Dhamma centric environment where, of course, you see, you know, monks and nuns on the street all the time, you almost can't go five meters without seeing another Pagoda, you know, small shrine on the street, or whatever. So the importance, and value of the triple gem is just always, always present in Myanmar. And I think that does a lot to reinforce your practice. And here, just know, you know, like, there's really not much, or any anywhere, I am basically none, no support, or like social cues, that make you think, you know, prioritizing a daily practice, and keeping a daily practice and keeping the precepts is a good idea. You know, obviously, in the US, ideas about a good life are generally predicated on other things, you know, material satisfaction, you know, sensual pleasure, etc, etc. So, so, you know, trying to keep it up in the US without an atmosphere that is supportive of your goals, and basically, like an atmosphere that, that reinforces that your goals are seen and good, and are a fundamental part of living a good life. All those social cues and supports are just gone. And they're replaced with like, you know, you could just order something else on Amazon today. And so, I'd say that that's an ongoing challenge. And we'll see how that shakes up as I'm here longer. I wouldn't say that I've had any real like insights as a result of the COVID situation at the moment. But what I would say is that the COVID situation has sort of like, redoubled my sense of urgency, because one thing for me that's been really disappointing is that, you know, I took a job in Myanmar with the idea that, ultimately, I'd like to do some long term retreat time in Myanmar, but I'm just in a life position where I had to work for some time, but my plan was to work for a bit more, and then go, you know, do whatever like 4560 day retreat, however much I could, I could handle. I just took it for granted that that was going to be possible. And so, you know, didn't quit my job or anything, because in order to have retreat time because there was no urgency. I just thought I'm going to work and then you know, when I have a situation where It seems like I can weather a small gap on my CV for two months or whatever, then, then I'll do my retreat time, and then I will have maximized my my time in Myanmar. And then, you know, when COVID came, and I left the country in 72 hours, you know, I was really blindsided by that. And I really think, you know, gives you some perspective on like, you can't take it for granted that you're just going to be able to do a retreat in Myanmar, if you are an American, because in fact, Myanmar is on a different side of the planet from your home. And when you're there, you just think, Oh, no, I'm here now. But actually, in the big picture, it's possible, you know, for the the winds of fate to just throw you very, very far away. And to me, that really reinforces some of the stuff that, you know, you hear in the Dhamma, and stuff that the Buddha said that, again, I think if you're from a stable economic and social situation and health situation, some of that stuff doesn't really sink into you, you know, where the Buddha really, really reinforces that, it is a very rare opportunity to be, you know, to be born as a human and to, and to then be a human that encounters the Dhamma. Like, that is an enormously, enormously rare and valuable opportunity. But to me, it was like, I don't know, it's just the background of my life, like I go to work, there's the monks, and I'll get my retreat time soon enough. So now, I really feel like I get this idea that, like, I just can't take good practice opportunities for granted. And when travel is possible, again, I am 100% going to retreat, I do not care what is up with my job situation, like I'm going to do a long term retreat, like at the next chance I have. So that's one thing is, it's definitely increased my sense of urgency and sort of like the sense of preciousness about like rare Dom opportunities. The second thing is that it's also sort of increased my sense of how to say it like that I need to prioritize and value the Dhamma and sort of, like fight for that, like against, you know, the natural stream of just coming back and being a normal American and just sort of easing into just doing the thing, even if America is kind of weird now, because you like, can't go out to have coffee or eat or anything. I mean, in some other level, it's still, you know, the society is still the same, the values of the society are the same. You know, the, the rhythm of life is, you know, at least here in a small town, it seems more the same than different to me, because I just came back from Myanmar. So like, the US under lockdown still seems more like the US not under lockdown to me than it does to Myanmar. So anyway, I'm feeling I'm feeling like I'm just back in the flow of being American. And I feel like a strong sense of determination that like, they're like, no, I really have to, you know, wrestle with my mind to keep prioritizing the Dhamma. So, so I'd say like, those are two things that have come from COVID is is a sense of urgency like on our like, personal sort of day to day level, and also like on a bigger picture level of like, I've just got to get myself back into more supportive conditions if I can.
Host 33:48
Emily Rothenberg is an American expat in meditator living in Mandalay. Wishing to use the lockdown to deepen her Dhamma practice, she was not able to find a monastery that would accept her, likely due to a fear that foreigners were carrying higher infection rates. She shares her observations on the Buddhist response to the coming Coronavirus in Mandalay.
Emily Rothenberg 34:08
I've been working on waste issues for a long time. And I've always wanted to do it at an international scale. I've done some work in Cuba, some work in Italy, I actually was looking for a Fulbright to go to Italy, Southern Italy and do this work, but it required a PhD. And in the midst of it, I came across this Fulbright public policy fellowship, which was kind of a perfect fit for where I was at. And it was offered in four countries and I didn't speak enough French to go to the Ivory Coast. I didn't want to go to the Ukraine. I could have gone to Peru but Myanmar was the only one that that explicitly said they were looking for environmental policy specialists and I don't know something just struck me about it. And I studied there a lot in Buddhism, so I thought it could be an interesting crossover. They're pretty competitive grants, but somehow I got it. And my proposal was both to work with the city government either MC DC or y CDC on their new waste reduction, strategic plan, sustainable waste management and outreach to the community to improve waste reduction behaviors, anti littering, etc. And I also have this research question about how could Buddhist ethics be incorporated into a greater sense of environmental responsibility amongst me, Mr. Public. So I came out to me, I'm pretty much as a clean slate, I had never been anywhere in Asia before. And I also knew that it was going to be a different kind of traveling or living abroad for me because it was the first time that I didn't speak the language fluently of the of the place I was going to. I spoke about zero, I learned Jay Z, the NBA and mengelola from YouTube video before I left, and I ordered a pocket guide from Lonely Planet or something. But, you know, I came pretty much prepared to just be totally brand new to the culture and the landscape and the environment. And Yangon was awesome. It was really, really humid and sticky when I first got there. And that was a bit of a shock. And then I came to Mandalay and was picked up by some of my colleagues from the cleansing department at mcdc. And, you know, had our first communication adventures in the car. Their English was somewhat limited. But as we came into the city, it just Mandalay was not it was not what I expected at all. I wasn't really sure what to expect, but it was definitely more hectic. So, you know, I was really eager to spend some time after my grant sitting at a monastery, I was familiar with the practices of dotasia Nia, because I had learned with Western teachers who had studied directly with him and Myanma and was hoping to go to men also had some other monasteries in mind that I thought it would be able to visit. But I mean, interestingly, when I got there, I think it's always such a it's always such a hectic transition arriving in a new country, especially if it's a place where you don't speak the language. And I think I kept my practice for about two or three weeks, and then it sort of faded and I started meditating less and less and I thought it was really quite funny that I was meditating less than I had for years living in a Buddhist country. I did go visit a number of the temples. In fact, I remember when I first arrived in Yangon, and you know, I had some meetings there to get started. And then I was did a couple of little tourist activities and seeing the lay of the land and I went to Shwedagon and I was watching these women pray and one of the temples and there and they sort of one of them motion for me to come in. And I did and I took a mat and I sat down and, and I just started crying and kind of weeping. It was the first time that I had been still and a number of weeks as I was getting ready to go and trying to set up a new computer and all the vaccinations and everything and I think I I didn't realize how wrapped up in all of that I was in just I remember just kind of touching that stillness for a moment sitting on the ground. I was so surprised by how much I guess, superstition and deism there was in what I saw being practice the Buddhism, I saw being practice in Myanmar. It's not a criticism. It just was it was unfamiliar to me. I didn't realize how many nuances there were to the belief system there. And of course, it varies across people. But yeah, it was a new finding for me. When I first got to Mandalay my I guess you could call him my boss, the committee chair for the department I was working for. It took us some time to find a groove and our relationship and at a certain point, I ended up basically rescuing a Myanmar street dog and I am I am not a dog person. I never wanted to dog I'm not someone who thinks I have to rescue every ailing street dog in Southeast Asia but I just this one, she was born right in front of my hotel and we just had this little special bond and she ended up being hit by a car before I took her in and there unfolded this epic story of of me and Lucy the dog and my boss got involved and he got a special dispensation to take the night bus from Mandalay to Yangon because normally they don't allow dogs and mcdc met me there and there was a whole, you know, entourage of people escorting me in the dock to the bus. But anyway, it totally changed the nature of our relationship when he realized also that I was a Buddhist practitioner and I apparently it had a very big impact on him that I would have the Karuna, that compassion to have wanted to save this little dog's life. And he was impressed by that and it and we developed a friendship around that. And he actually, he has my dog right now. She's basically his now, which is a bit sad for me. But also, I think he explored and developed some new forms of love that that weren't really a part of his life before he he lives alone and Lucy became the mcdc dog, she would ride in the car with us with the driver to go to appointments, he takes her on trips, he's gotten kittens now to keep her company and been through a lot with her also. So we became co parents of Lucy and, and friends in Buddhist practice, I refer to him as saya sometimes I found out that he had taken vows actually for a couple of years. And he refers to it as the happiest time in his life. So I was just sort of hitting my stride. And finally, after months of adjusting to the climate, to the air quality to the cultural differences, the work style, you know, communication styles and some projects that I wanted to do were finally coagulating and meeting with partners and this was maybe around February, I took a brief trip to Rakhine to go to Napoli beach and had a great time there participated in a cleanup a part of a CSR activity that was organized by Hilton and some other hotels there that actually kind of operate their own waste collection system because it wasn't there before. And after that, I stopped back in Yangon alone. And it was while I was there that I found out that my petition to extend my grant would not be granted will not be accepted because of COVID. And I think it was less than 24 hours later that we all every fulbrighter got a notice saying that we were under under voluntary evacuation. At that time, I had a phone conversation with my mother from the lobby in the hotel in Yangon. And she was pretty panicked because things were already really chaotic in the United States. At that point. I think lockdown had already started here. Meanwhile, in Malmo life was, you know, business as usual. Still, mostly because there was no capacity for testing yet any tests that they were doing there for COVID were being sent to Thailand. And there was speculation that the quality and capacity if the tests weren't, that it wasn't very accurate. So there were no proven cases yet. And everybody was kind of going about their normal lives. And I knew for certain I did not want to come back to the United States. I wasn't planning on it. My plan for the summer was to spend some time sitting in Myanmar after my grant was finished, and then go spend time traveling in Southeast Asia, maybe come home for a bit to Chicago, go back to Italy for a visit to my my second virtual home there and hopefully have a new job that I could start by the fall in Myanmar. And so yeah, that was February. And I think it was a week after it was declared a pandemic that the Department of State issued a level four Travel Warning, which triggered the Department of State to basically recall every single Peace Corps Volunteer every single fulbrighter around the world and there 1000s of them, it was pretty much chaos. I did not want to leave, I was still pretty steadfast that I didn't want to leave but I was starting to not know where to go. And I was starting to not know where was safe. I didn't really want to be stuck in Mandalay, if there were an outbreak, I knew from my boss who works at the cleansing department that the healthcare system was just not prepared to handle a massive outbreak of COVID there and in Yangon, I thought well, the situation will be even worse. I really wanted to go ride it out in Pune when and be at a monastery and I thought that there would be no better way to sit out a global disruption like this than to just sit with it. And I thought it would be the perfect time to spend a couple months in deep meditation but I couldn't find anywhere that would take me because everyone was really frightened of, of taking in foreigners and being responsible. You know, if someone were to get ill and also just obviously gatherings you know, in spaces like that wasn't a great idea. So I even took a taxi one night to Pune when to go meet with the main Abbot there and had the American born nun via nanny translate for me as I basically pled my case to stay there, you know, please, I don't want to go back to America helped me. And he said he agreed that I could stay if she were also there. But of course, she she didn't know if she was staying and she didn't want to be responsible for me either. So I got to sit with them. There were some foreigners who had been there for several months and everybody was being sent home the next day, and I got to sit with them for one final Dhamma talk for about an hour or two before I took a taxi home that night. And I remember sitting in that meditation hall and just, oh my god, this stillness It was so good, that stillness for that hour or however long it lasted. And I was given some printouts of some meta chants and parts of the meta suta, which I, I brought home with me and later that was kind of the one thing that saved me in the first couple weeks when I came back was just repeating the meta chance, it was the only thing that brought me any sense of peace. So as fulbrighters, we were given the opportunity to book a flight home all expenses paid through the Department of State's travel agency, and that was a nightmare. And that was just about the same day that Thailand was closing its borders, which, of course, Bangkok is a hub for something like 80% of all the flights that go in and out of Myanmar, and other countries had already started to shut down Thailand was going to begin requiring a COVID negative certificate to even get into their airport. And that didn't exist in Myanmar, there was nowhere to get that. So we were all kind of panicking, trying to figure out what to do. Every ex that I know was sending each other text messages saying, Are you in camp leaving or staying where you going? Meanwhile, seeing these awful reports about airports around the world and the last thing I wanted to do right then was fly through four international airports and be stuck in throngs of people for eight or nine hours at a time. My friend trying to go to home to Uruguay for Mandalay had left just a bit before me. And she was sending me live reports of just a nightmare being stuck in all these airports around the world. So I wasn't particularly eager to do that. And I also really still wanted to stay in Myanmar. But once my monastery plan was out of the question, I really didn't know where to go. And I ended up I booked a flight, which I knew was cancelable to go through Bangkok arriving something like 11pm, just before the cutoff to need one of those certificates to get through the line. I wasn't sure if I would make it I packed in a rush had to leave a lot of things behind. I've never left a hotel room. so messy before in my life, I'm usually very tidy. And I thought to myself, okay, this is what it feels like maybe when people are in some sort of natural emergency and they they have to leave. So I packed up what I could and I ran to the airport and I saw that line of probably, you know, every tourist that was left in Mandalay, heading into Bangkok, and I did not have a good feeling about it at all. And I called my mother and I told her I don't want to do this, I don't feel good about it. And for once she agreed with me. And I got out of that line. And about a minute later, I got a call from the travel agency saying that actually the purchase had never gone all the way through because of an error from the agent who I was working with over the phone. So instead I caught the last flight from the airport into Yangon and was just so relieved to not be traveling internationally. It was really peaceful almost nobody was on the flight got into Yangon checked into a hotel, everything was still pretty much fine. Except the proverbial has a chai tea was starting to hit the fan and you know globally are starting to hear a lot of news about what was going on. Things in Italy getting worse and worse. And someone from the embassy invited me to stay in her empty apartment she had already left early for her maternity leave. And it was nearby where I was staying. And it was a fancy all expenses paid apartment with a generator and security and a pool and filtered water. And so I said Are you sure? Okay, thanks. And I went in there and just as I was kind of getting settled and prepared to you know, I did my grocery shopping, I was planning to write out the pandemic there and got a knock on the door from some other women from the US Embassy who lived in the building and they let themselves right in we're not wearing masks were apparently not social distancing, proceeded to rummage through everything in the kitchen and then you know, sort of demanded that I tell them what my plan was to leave. And I said, Well, I don't I don't really want to leave. I feel safer here for a lot of reasons. I don't want to get stuck in the United States. I anticipated that there would be civil unrest of some sort. I didn't know they would be race riots, specifically, but I kind of saw that coming for a while. I didn't want to be stuck in a country that I knew would be on, you know, cannot travel travel ban list for a long time. And anyway, they went through a litany of things that could possibly go wrong if I stayed and and kind of startled me and really pressured me to make a flight out and the next day I reluctantly went down to the Qatar Airways office and waited in line for several hours to get on one of the reef relief flights that they had organized and be my plan to have my last few days and Young Go on, and they were not very pleasant that was, you know, they had just started testing in that last day or two. And so they had their first confirmed cases. And suddenly everybody was taking temperatures when you walked into buildings, and you know, finally wearing masks and runs on supplies at the grocery store and such. So it was a bit unpleasant. And more than anything, I was nervous that if something were to go awry, at the time, you were required to go into a public hospital, you wouldn't be allowed to be treated at a private clinic. So I was nervous about that, although I had spoken to the American nun about staying or going. And she told me a story about having to be traded in the Myanmar hospital one time and she said, you know, she kind of sat with it and saw the compassion of the doctors there, and that they were doing the best that they could. And she no longer had fear about what it would mean to have health care in a developing country that doesn't have access to a lot. So I thought about that to kind of what I was willing to sacrifice. And at the end of the day, between my mother's fears, and that visit from the people at the embassy, I, you know, just very reluctantly agreed to make that flight reservation and was really, really sad to be wheeling my suitcases out and going to the airport that night. I cried by myself in the bathroom in JFK for a really long time before I got myself to walk through the customs line back into the United States. And it was just like a totally different world coming into JFK, you know, from having left Myanma. I mean, I don't mean culturally, I mean, because of where the US was at and where New York was at, specifically with COVID. At that time, all the flights were canceled. I didn't know how I was going to get back to Chicago. But eventually I got on a Delta flight and I came back and came to quarantine at a friend's house that was empty here in my hometown, a suburb of Chicago. When I got back to the States, I think it was maybe exactly March 31. I had this plan that I was going to do my own 10 day Silent Retreat at home. I was just I was craving stillness, I was craving Dhamma I was craving I think some sort of internal refuge from all this chaos that had been going on in those last few weeks. And I was in Myanmar were not very pleasant. I wasn't sleeping very much, I was really torn up about what to do. I didn't really know where I was gonna go, we're gonna live I mean, like everyone, I think there was a lot of uncertainty. And I had just left behind all of these projects that I, you know, poured my heart into trying to develop for several months, and they were just at the point of blossoming plus this little dog that I rescued that I had to leave behind. So there was a lot of grief, I think. And so I endeavored to embark upon this retreat, you know, turned on my out of office, turned off the computer turned off the phone, etc. I set up a little altar for myself using my friend's old wooden TV stand and this little green silk cloth that I had bought in Thailand, and, you know, some artwork I brought back from em, and o'clock and kind of went to get to it. And I was pretty restless and there wasn't a lot of stillness to be found in there. And I think, you know, what I, what I did for refuge was start reading metta suta, portions and, and doing meta chants and metta practice, that was really the only time that my mind really calmed down. And I suppose in a way, it was a bit easy to feel that because, of course the world. I think that was a moment in COVID, where the world briefly was united in this global pandemic and what they perceived as this global fight. I struggled because I came back to this very affluent neighborhood in the town where I come from, and the first day I went out for a long walk in silence, and I couldn't believe it, but the familiar sound of landscapers was going in the distance and I thought, seriously, you people need to have your landscapers come in the midst of this and everything that I dislike about this community came rushing, you know, into my brain. And I spent most of those days that I was trying to practice really working with pretty heavy resentment and aversion toward this town where I'm from and everything it represents to me and then I would go back inside and do meta again. And every day I would go out for a walk until finally one day I went for a walk and I started a practice of just looking at every house and really looking at it outside the context in these sort of, you know, conditions. conditional associations of what I think of Highland Park is being and I would look at each house and kind of peek inside and look at their windows and think about the people inside and what their lives might be like and locked down and what they were wishing for hoping for. And I was, I don't know, just suddenly that day able to see each household with compassion, and I have just this really beautiful walk even though it got cloudy and started raining it even snowed a couple times when I came back, it was just such a harsh transition from sunny tropical Yungang. But I suppose things shifted for me that day. And I still, what ended up happening is that by day eight, I somehow began watching Netflix all night long. And that's when I knew I had to connect with other human beings. And my retreat wasn't going as planned. And as it turned out, just when I turned my computer on, I got noticed that an old Dharma teacher of mine, one who had spent years taking vows with saya mutation, Nia actually was running a day long retreat virtually. So I attended that the next day, and it took not 20 minutes of sitting together as a group. And then he, you know, instructed us to go outside and do our own walking meditation for 30 minutes that I just started sobbing when I got outside. And I think I just needed to be connected with other human beings to feel all that the emotion there was around this shake up and around this loss. And I had really been beating myself up for even feeling upset, because I thought I knew so many more people were so much more vulnerable than I was I had money in a bank account to house to come to access to food. And yet, I was really, really devastated. by losing something that I I worked really hard for and not getting to say goodbye, you know, just coming back to a place I never want to come back to. So just connecting with other people in a sangha was really, really meaningful to me that day. And one good thing about the pandemic is that every song I've ever been a part of, in any of the many places I've lived are now all meeting online. So I had lots of groups I could plug into, and I started doing that. And still, for a while I just wasn't practicing, I basically got busy to deal with my grief. And started to see how just how reactive I felt all the time, I could see that I had no mindfulness and so I started just asking a couple friends, you know, can we can I call you at x time on video call and can we just sit together. And I started doing that in recent weeks. And it just it felt so good, you know that, that stillness, that clarity, that refuge is still there. And as these months have passed, I've started digging in a little bit more into where I am living. It's gotten more my planted some plants have a little tiny garden now going and setting up some ways to enjoy the outdoors and going for some great walks and bike rides. There's a lot of opportunity to do bird watching here. There's a really beautiful lake that looks like a sea actually. And you know, a couple of Dharma teachers that I talked to when I first got back were saying, Well remember, Dhamma is everywhere. And it pissed me off. I mean, I was like, yeah, it's everywhere. But it's not the same as being in a monastery in Southeast Asia. In a tropical country. You know, it's definitely not the same with these landscapers going off and people's Mercedes and their driveways and everything else. But the reality is that my reaction to you know, the experiences I'm having in life, my reaction to things going on around me, that is habitual. I mean, that is a matter of practice, and it doesn't really matter where I am. And so would it have been an easier and more supportive environment to do a Silent Retreat on an extended basis at a monastery with other people with a similar commitment? Yes, but I'm kind of coming back to you know, what it means to practice and lay life and trying to use this time to be prepared and open for whatever is coming next and it might be coming back to me enma that certainly feels unfinished to me and a lot of ways but it also might be something else and there's a certain relaxation in you know, letting go of that need to sort of finish or complete what I think needs to be completed. So I am finding some more peace in my practice today. And I think more than anything is just connecting with others I i've been single and and lived alone for a long time and I think I really took for granted what a role my communities and community connection played for me even just in in regulating my my body and how I feel, just being in the presence of other human beings. What a difference Makes I think it was easy to take for granted how different it feels to go work at a cafe or in a library than to, you know, be at home all day by myself. So the birds are my friends here and I have a few neighbors who I chat with from the driveway. But as it turns out, it is a pretty solitary life. And, you know, I'm finding other lessons than I would have if I had been able to stay in Myanmar. It's not the same, but there's still growth and I'm, I'm finding it now.
Host 1:00:33
The initial funds that allowed us to set up this Insight Myanmar podcast came unexpectedly, and we did our best to stretch them as far as possible. Unfortunately, that generous startup donation could not have predicted the pressing need to cover our exploding health crisis. and meeting the interest and concern many meditators have expressed about the situation and Burmese monasteries and meditation centers. So if you would like to hear podcasts that address this new content, or assist others in being able to access them, please consider making a donation to fund this work. Most all podcast contributors work entirely as volunteers, and those few receiving remuneration are meditators who have offered 50% or more discount for their professional services. Nonetheless, there is still no real way to produce an episode for less than several $100. Whatever funds we are able to collect now will be used solely for producing these new episodes, and any additional donations will allow us to increase our run thank you for your support, stay safe and be well. We welcome your contribution in any amount, denomination and transfer method you may give via patreon@patreon.com slash Insight Myanmar via paypal@paypal.me slash Insight Myanmar, or by credit card by going to Insight myanmar.org slash donation. In all cases, that's Insight Myanmar one word i en Si, gh t, MYA, and M AR. You can also go to the GoFundMe site and search Insight Myanmar to find our present campaign. If you are in Myanmar and would like to give a cash donation, please feel free to get in touch with us. Next, we hear from David Sundar, who ordained for several years under say a deputation, the actual human monastery and now teaches meditation himself. Based in Portland, Oregon, he had been visiting Yangon when the pandemic hit, you can learn more about David from his website, path of sincerity.com.
David Sudar 1:02:29
My spiritual journey really started when I was 19, by chance of reading a Dalai Lama book, when I was just really hungry for a deeper drive or purpose or meaning to life. And it really struck a chord with me with the Buddhist worldview and the meditative worldview. And over the years to come, I then launched that through the reading into a yoga practice, which then eventually led to a meditative practice. And I initially started meditation through doing a 10 day, going to a retreat, and then passing that course. And over the course of five or six years of getting more into yoga and meditation, it just increasingly became the only thing I was really interested in doing. And as my daily practice picked up, and my retreat time picked up, I was living in a city in the US. And it was slowly dawning on me that I really wanted to do it full time with no nothing holding me back, no responsibilities. And so I planned for a few years, and set myself up to go on an indefinite spiritual journey, which led me to living at a Zen center for a time studying yoga in India, doing long Vipassana retreats, and then eventually, I realized that the meditation specifically was the thing that was really calling to me. And in that also the Burmese pasta tradition. And I had encountered the teachings of signup mutation, Nia along the way, first through a book, and then through doing a retreat with one of his students in Malaysia. And the the approach just really resonated with me. And so I decided to go practice with him and Myanmar. At that point, my intention, I was new, that's all I wanted to do. So I was going to go and ordained as a monk and practice indefinitely, just until I felt like I was done if that ever came. And so in the end, I practiced there with saya da for about two years, really just engaging in intensive meditation the whole time, and went from a place where I still felt like I was stumbling along with the meditation to where I really felt I had a pretty good grasp on what I was doing. And that was one of the real gifts, that side I gave me was, instead of just giving a technique, he really taught me how to understand my own mind and how to work with it skillfully. And that period really just felt like I came home to myself, and found a real sense of peace within myself amidst the changing conditions of life. So at a certain point, it just felt like it was time to move on to a different form of practice. So after about two years, I decided to disrobe and came back to the United States. And that was now about four or five years ago. And since then, the practice has continued to evolve and, you know, transform in all sorts of interesting ways. And I've started teaching a lot. And finding that place as science teaches a lot, that practice isn't just for the monastery or the retreat, it's awareness and wisdom art for everyday life. And so I've been finding, it's so rich to explore that intersection in living in a city, living in relationships with work and money, and how to practice and so that's kind of where I'm at these days. So with respect to bringing the practice my own practice alive in daily life in an urban setting, the past few years, inside us sometimes called his teachings, or uses this line awareness plus wisdom. And this has really captured a lot of them. For me, were Firstly, it's been about seeing how awareness isn't confined to the city meditation. And just this little bit of mindfulness of recognition of what's going on around me what's happening to my own mind, my own mind states, feeling states reactivity states, and happiness, somewhat focused or refined, attunement, just to my interstate. And so monitoring and tracking as it changes and shifts throughout the day. And then in that, greeting, that with the wisdom side, this would say, calls right attitude. So instead of saying, oh, a little craving came up, or some other form of reactivity ingredient, it just, oh, this is here, right now, no problem. It's just nature. So in that, finding a lot of self acceptance, and just allowing whatever is to be there to be there. But then that right attitude piece, along with this clear scene of it just as a state of nature, just happening, finding a way to have a new relationship with it, to greet it with wisdom with equanimity, patience, or maybe to lead more integrating those states with compassion, and ultimately, as awareness when it's a little more stable, and when I'm able to greet these things that way, bringing in some of this deeper investigation. And I think in my practice, or something I really loved about how he taught working with the mind in this way, was it was very organic. Like he didn't give a set prescription, like do this exact little technique, and then do the other one and this order and that he was just like, you have to know your own mind, ask why study it, look at it from different angles. And so what I found, taking that these days, or in recent years really helpful is when I noticed these things that come up, just asking myself, well, what's this about? What's really going on here? Why is why am I afraid right now. And so I found that being able to find some of the hidden roots, some of the deeper views or cravings that are leading to these different states. And so I found with that, that approach of greeting it with awareness, right attitude, and then investigative flavor has has been a really powerful way to not get lost in destructive states, and to start to really uproot them and all sorts of cultivate beautiful states of mind, allowing space for more compassion care, just patience, presence, equanimity to come in. And so that has been that that way of working with the mind specifically, has been what I found really useful in daily life. So after in Mar, once I left and came back to the States, there was about a year and a half, two year period where I was still a little transients moving around. And then I settled back into Portland, Oregon, where I used to live. And I just reconnected with an old yoga teacher. And I told her a little bit about what I've been up to the past several years, and that I was interested in teaching and she invited me to come teach some of her programs. And after that, the next few years really just that one teaching gig. People just kept inviting me to teach other things. Before I knew it, I had a pretty full schedule, teaching everywhere from yoga studios to wellness centers to a Buddhist group to corporations. And throughout that, some of the guiding principles I've had in sharing the Dhamma, and meditation, some of the basic advice the Buddha had were, you know, you speak to the level people are at. And so when I lead a Buddhist group, I might talk a little bit more to some of the subtler points of the Dharma of, you know, working with insights into emptiness or the Noble Eightfold Path. Whereas if I teach, you know, with more beginner students, you know, sometimes and it's really just establishing basics of mindfulness, equanimity, what is it to be aware how to greet your different emotions or feelings with a sense of okayness. And at times, maybe shift a bit more into a Shama to our focused attention, practice, or just great ourselves with self compassion practice. So a lot of it, the teaching has really been about sizing up or attuning to where the different people in the room are at. And using, you know, the Buddha, so much admiration and just awe at how skillful he was in providing such a wide array of tools and practices to greet different situations, different people, different obstructions of mind. And so, on one level, there is just that attuning to the students. But I see ultimately at the core of it, it's really what I've talked about with rotation is practice this awareness plus wisdom practice, it's the same basic system for all different students. And something about that is really, really inspiring to me that there's a real simplicity to it, at the end of the day is come into awareness and just learn to see whatever is happening is what it is, this is this is just what's happening in front of us No need to fight it resist, it wants something different. And so, through the vehicle of awareness and stabilizing awareness, it's continuing to just help people come more into that okayness of being by way of clear scene is what it is. Maybe the one other little bit to toss on, there's something, I think a difference between reading a book, or listening to a guided meditation that i i appreciate about my time with cider. And what I try to emulate in person is that there is something about an actual relationship among humans, that is really powerful as a teaching tool to just great people with empathy and care and understanding to see them and to have developed relationships, I think can be such a profound not even just in teacher, student, but even among Sangha among peers. And so that development of Sangha, I see is also a very, very potent way to develop on the path. Actually, I spent the month of February back at trail men in Myanmar practicing suicide. And towards the end of that month, right before I was to come home. And historically, this was right around when the global pandemic was picking up a little bit. Actually, I got really sick at the end of February. And I had basically all of the symptoms of the COVID-19 virus. And I was really pretty nervous flying internationally. I was I wasn't sure if I was even going to get let back into the United States. So I did and I flew back and then I ended up when I arrived back home, I just self quarantine in my bedroom for about 10 days. I was an interesting time, where, you know, there's something about just being in a small room, enclosed room for days on end feeling pretty, pretty icky. That you know, I was I was really pretty okay with it. But I was noticing, getting a bit restless, and wanting to, to go get on with my life. And then ironically, as soon as I got better, that's when things really picked up society and my city started to shut down. And since then, since my health has returned, I've personally Actually, my income has dropped quite a bit and my work situation has shifted, and I haven't been able to see people in person. And so in that level, there's was a little bit of, I don't know, a little bit of sadness came in, but it wasn't too strong for me and really much more powerfully. I use the opportunity to start teaching a lot more like I'm leading a morning meditation on zoom every day and more just teaching events. Throughout the week, and not just teaching, but also just having more Dhamma sharing with people through the web, as I have more time available in the week. So on that level, I've been finding a lot of purpose and meaning in exercising that care and compassion has felt very wholesome. But I think also something personally, that I have really, I think I've been through similar situations before, not necessarily pandemic, but just alterations to life that have really disrupted the day to day. And I think something I've found for myself that has been really powerful and helpful, has been keeping up with good habits. And so I meditate, I do formal practice, every day, I go on at least a one hour walk every day, I still eat pretty healthy, I try to keep tabs on some people through zoom and phone calls. And just in general, keep up myself maintenance and keep staying interested in reading. So just in that I find, keeping these basic habits together. And that increase of purpose. I've been finding, I've actually been really pretty stable and in really quite good spirits. And of course, there is some of the greater understanding of society, the stressors, and maybe midterm or long term, things will get more challenging for me on a more logistical level, but I'm just trusting, you know, trusting the Dharma, trusting life. And I don't really think too far into the future. And those fear and anxiety levels, I just stay in my day to day, keep my habits, my routines and apply myself and trust that it will work out that has served me pretty well so far. But one thing I've noticed as a starting point, and getting to connect with at least 100 people individually, not necessarily one on one, but hearing from quite a number of people in small groups over the past couple months is for the starting point, there isn't I don't see there as a normal experience, or a singular response people are having to this. And so there, there's actually a number of people who are doing really well. And a lot of people who are somewhere in the middle who are like, well, this is an inconvenience, and there's some things coming up, but I'm really pretty, still pretty solid. And then there are a big chunk of people who are really struggling. And so I see the starting point for me is to normalize whatever anyone is experiencing. And so well, if they feel guilty, that they're doing well, well, then, you know, look at that, and that's okay, and if somewhere in the middle, or if they're really struggling and they're hard on themselves, we'll just notice that and allow that. And so the starting point is to really give space for wherever people are at and to not shame or guilt them or just to help them see the ways that they might feel like it's not okay to be how they are. And from that starting point, the people who are struggling, I think two things I've really seen come up the strongest one is the fear and anxiety about future, like what's going to happen, whether that's economically or relationally, or personally or society lead. And that the fear and anxiety. On one level, it's the same awareness and wisdom practice just to just to notice that, okay, this is what's coming up. This is just nature, this is normal. And sometimes that can be enough to shift the attitude towards it. But a couple other things person dependent one is to bring in a sense of compassion towards themselves. And I found the work of Kristin Neff, who is not a Buddhist, but she's a scientific researcher who draws heavily on Buddhist practices, has developed some very simple self compassion practices, I'd like to share with people basically just to change some of that relationship to be a little kinder to ourselves. Because in the West, I think when we have difficulty, we tend to get really hard on ourselves or check out or, or something. So bringing in some compassion. And another way on top of attitude and compassion is, again that investigated practice. And so asking ourselves so what is this fear really about? What are the say the basic stories involved with it, which usually just breaks down to something like, I believe it's not gonna work out or something bad's gonna happen, or I won't be able to control it. So seeing whether it's the the underlying views or deeper emotions or sentiments that are there is starting to talk to it and investigate it and look more closely at it. If there already is some degree of stability in the mind. People are able to soft in there. Experience the fear and anxiety. And I think a second big challenge I've noticed with people has to do, at least where I'm living in Oregon, we're still in a stay at home order. And so we're not really supposed to see people outside of our household. And I'm noticing a lot of people struggling with the social isolation, whether that's loneliness, or just the lack of human touch and contact. And even in the zoom sessions I lead, people often comment that it's just hard for them to find their social connection through a screen. It's just different than being in person. And with that, there is a reality that comes up for people. And so again, just making space for that and allowing that, okay, well, that's what's here, right now, can we make friends with that and be at peace with that, and finding in that, finding a little bit of that, that companionship and that sense of home and ease in ourselves through the awareness, practice, the awareness and wisdom practice. And even in that there can be one level where that can lead us just to an acceptance of what it is, but also to patients, patients, in some sense, is just the willingness to be with suffering or discomfort. And so, okay, well, this just is what it is right now. And it might change in the future. So can we have some patience, maybe bring in some compassion along the way, but, and in their skillful behaviors, we could apply to it on ways people can handle it. But that's not so much my focus, the inner life, more of that, just patience, and what we're doing the best we can, you know, we can, maybe this is the last thing I'll throw in here, on that note of doing the best we can, where I think sometimes when people see the social isolation, they get frustrated with the options, say, zoom, zoom connections, or just going out on walks and seeing people even, they get frustrated by that, and then decide to do nothing and go even further into their shell, it's almost as if this mentality of If I can't have everything, well, then I don't want anything. And then, as I was talking about earlier, with building good habits, I find there's can be a tendency to let go of good habits all across the board, and just go further into the shell and slip into this pit of despair. And so I find that just that mentality of doing the best we can, okay, well, at least I can maintain good habits, at least I can see people in zoom, at least I can do my sitting practice, at least I can exercise in focusing on that what we can do, really helps to brighten the mind overall in powerful ways. With respect to some of the silver linings, or the maybe the hidden positives of the situation like this. Just to preface this, I I do get a little careful about because I see sometimes that people can almost discount the opportunities in the present because it will get better in the future. And so I always just like to keep that in check a little bit that we shouldn't focus too much on these, these benefits that might come sometime in the distant future, if we're using that as a way to avoid or bypass the suffering that we're experiencing right now. But that being said, if we can hold our presence and be with our present, I do think there are some really profound opportunities in this situation. And one thing I've already started to notice in myself and in students and peers, and even non meditators is a tuning into what's really important. And I've seen a lot of people to start this process, when all of a sudden when the day to day is disrupted, people are like, wait a minute, this job that I've been working that felt like soulless and lifeless, do I really want to keep doing that, oh, this style of life I've been engaged in that maybe it's chasing status, or just success or money, or a bunch of just an unending unpleasant experiences, is that really bringing me satisfaction. And so I see that tragedy has a way of really bringing us to the heart of the matter to the heart of ourselves, and checking in with our values and our integrity or request gene, our whole value system altogether. And so I'm optimistic that as a whole Well, not everyone is going to engage with that process. I think there is a general movement in society where more people are doing that. And even some of these really high level politicians who I generally don't have the most favorable opinion of largely because I don't see a lot of empathy and compassion towards the masses coming from them. I've seen more of that come in now, who it's like, oh, wow, we really actually have to care about About people. And there's something really, really beautiful, just a greater movement. And maybe this ties in that, when I think we get more in touch with what matters for us, we see that that others matter that we as a collective matter, the whole species in which is really touching into the principle of metta loving kindness, goodwill. I'm optimistic more of that will creep in. On top of, you know, there's some more societal museums of, I think anytime there is a de stabilizing of a societal structure, there's an opportunity to restabilized in a more sustainable way. And I don't know enough about that that level of societal development to make a real educated statement. But I'm optimistic that in some form, we will even just something like in the United States, maybe a little bit more movement towards universal health care, maybe in that direction. And so, I do have a lot of optimism, even if it's, you know, misguided or maybe it's useful for for my spirit to see some of those silver linings and opportunities.
Host 1:26:19
Following is Gary long, an Australian meditator who has made several pilgrimages to Myanmar, as the Coronavirus hit the country, he was moving from one intensive retreat to another, and it just ordained as a novice monk during the course in the sunshine hills when the lockdown in Myanmar was just underway.
Gary Leung 1:26:36
I'm in I'm back in Sydney, Australia, liable present. I guess I'm ever on in Sydney, everyone in Australia is so isolated. So I'm just at home all day. I have a lot of free time now. So I guess I just, I guess meditation, and I'm trying to figure out what to do next. I've been writing maps, before very abruptly returning to Sydney because of COVID-19. So now I'm suddenly back in working out what to do next. For the most part of my eight months in Myanmar, I was meditating, living and meditating in monasteries. I didn't really go out with a with a sip. And there were few teachers that I had one to learn from that old engineer, which we mean, I wanted to practice some better or so. And I wanted to spend some time at Kabbalah. But I didn't really go to Myanmar with a defined plan. I sort of just went along and, yeah, so what's open to what would happen? In January, I was actually in a game. I was in a retreat in Chatwin. The retreat organised by the passionate Hawaii, with Cato, and Michelle McDonald, even SKIP AND de la Pamela as ages. That's a Marcy styling retreat for three weeks. And that was a time when COVID-19 news was breaking. Because I was in the Silent Retreat. And I'd already ended my phone, I didn't actually receive any of that news. wasn't until the end of the shoot. Well, actually, we got a little bit bit of it came out in the middle of the retreat. But we didn't receive so much information because the teachers wanted to keep us calm. And it wasn't really an immediate concern for us in the ministry at the time that the virus was still just limited to China. So it wasn't concerned for us. So we didn't really find out much about it until the end of the retreat. And at that time, the US was it was still mainly limited to China. And Chinese government's taking it very seriously that they had controls in place. So it wasn't really a concern for us. When we left the retreat, they gave us an sanitizer which, at the time I was sort of amused by what we're doing as an antenna, guys, I didn't really understand the seriousness of the situation. And then I left that okay, I went to actually visited a grant of a house at FAU in dorm for a few days. So I went east once again to monywa. And I was there for a few days at the park. I mean really didn't really realize a serious incident. Until a few days later, when my friend said that the other villages are a bit scared of me, because I was a foreigner and I might have a virus. And as I started to realize, oh, something is going on here. I mean that the boy didn't really give me student will give me I don't think any of us knew how huge it could be at a time. That was there for a few days. In Windham, monywa. And then I went to the win for the metro retreat at Chen Mei make, which, again, is another Silent Retreat. So I did two weeks of major, and one week of a partner. And again, I had in my phone so I wasn't receiving any news. At the end of that three weeks, we've got a bit of news, again, that was this Coronavirus situation. And it was still, what was implied to us was it still seemed to be quite under control. It's spread out to Japan at a time. But students seem like something that we need to worry about and this flow traveling to China or Japan. Yeah, it's a bit strange because I was in this bubble in these meditation retreats. And then I would suddenly get a bit of news at the end of the retreat that there was this epidemic situation. But I guess it's, you suddenly get a little bit of news, it's different to being sort of slowly receiving the news each day, the seriousness of it. I guess the thick of it doesn't really see him because you're not getting exposed to it over time, you're just hearing about it. And you're like, oh, there's this thing going on. I really notice many changes until maybe would have been maybe February or March. So in February, I was hearing news from other meditators that how inulin had closed, close to foreigners. daily life, it will seem to be quite normal, people are still out and about in the street going about their business. Daily Life still seemed quite normal. in I think it was late February, I went to about attenion. In life, it was still quite normal. The volunteer activities was still ongoing. But when I was at about us, you know, finally getting used regularly. So I was dying to realize, Oh, this is actually coming a really serious global global issue. We had a few meetings about about how we would deal with the situation. But I think we still didn't really understand what this thing was, and how to deal with it. And also at about where we had quite limited resources. So there wasn't a lot that we could do besides the volunteers themselves by more clinics by doing it by hand sanitizer. The power did better on introduce a patina other measures. But at that stage, I'd already been to another branch of Kabbalah embargo. When I was in the bow embargo. I had I was getting used again, I was on my phone, but it was still I was in the monastery for about a week or so. But again, it was sort of a sort of like I was in a bubble protected from the brunt of the impact in the rest of the world. I wasn't out in the street and seeing what was going on and talking to people. I was just spending most of my days meditating in the monastery. It was at when I was in our boggo. In mid May, the countries basically started closing borders in the Australian Government close to the border and Blackstone getting cancelled. And then within the span of those two or three days, I realized, okay, I need to go. And I suddenly booked flights, when the first flight I booked, was canceled. And I immediately booked my next flight back to Sydney. Because I knew that I was cancelled didn't get canceled. So I'm going to get back to Australia soon. When I did lay up our burger, I took a cab to the airport. And the airport. Yeah, that was when I really saw people wearing face masks. And everyone was quite concerned. The airport was very, wasn't busy. Wasn't I quite a bit normally camping now is when I realized, Oh, this is why I realized something serious is going on because all the borders or the country's borders were closing or getting canceled. But that was actually the first impact of the Coronavirus that I saw with my eyes, not hearing about it in the news or on the internet. When I did receive a bit of information about the virus when meditating, and wouldn't say that it was sort of just oh, this is something that's happening. I tried to maintain my attitude in my practice. So it's just accept that it's something happening, and then the monitoring can't really do much about it. It's sort of just acknowledge and accept that it is as it is. Now, I think everyone, whether you're in daily life or in a monastery, at the time, it was really hard to fully grasp what was going on. No one really understood what was going on. Especially when you're in the bonus stream, and you're in this little bubble, it You really don't know what's going on, you really can't understand what's happening, what's going on, outside. That's it, you know, I did sort of get these bits of news. And I realized, oh, okay, something's going on. But didn't really concern me so much. I think my biggest concern for the most part was, I was hearing that Alan bonuses were getting close. And I wasn't sure where I would go next. I was still paying to in April, I was paying to go to Ireland to practice some of the poorest monasteries there. But I was hearing that those monitors water closing, so I really wasn't sure where I was going to go. So that was sort of, in the background of my mind, where I would go next, I still didn't fully understand what his pandemic situation would become what it was. So I got back to Sydney, and I went into quarantine in my, in my childhood bedroom in my parents place. So, again, it was sort of this situation where I was in a bubble, my parents would leave food outside my daughter, and I will just stay in my room for the entirety of the two weeks. And I was getting used again, because that was only on my phone and on my PC. But again, it's still I was in a bit of a boat because I wasn't out and about in the world. I was reconnecting with Prince. But after eight months, in monasteries, I think I can say I was still a bit spaced out, I understood what was happening. And I had concerns, I wouldn't say I was anxious about the situation. I am concerned about it. And I know about what would happen and how people would feel a bit, I wasn't really worried about myself. I'm young and relatively healthy, though, I was to get the virus. And really, I was relatively confident I would recover. My main concern was really just if I was ever virus, and returning from overseas, I didn't want to spread any loved ones or anyone else. Really, my main concern is strange, because I'm out of the formal quarantine. Now, I'm still self isolating at home. But it means that Yeah, I sort of have a lot of free time nowadays. So I could practice meditation more. I'm much more after the formal quarantine, I did go out and walk around outside of the mall. And I sort of saw the empty streets and people wearing face masks, so the brunt of what was happening, what's happening, is sinking in, and I realized that I feel more grounded. I still practice meditation. Normally, at least an hour a day, it's something to practice has put me in a good place to mentally deal with what's going on. I'm not, I don't feel anxious about things I'm not really worried about myself is more just concerned for others, and people will deal with this health situation and the economic situation. Basically pleasant surprises coming out of this is, of course everyone is stuck at home, a lot of meditation centers in the West. So in the US and UK, they're now doing online meetings and online retreats. So I've been able to engage in those opportunities. I'm in Australia, so otherwise I wouldn't be able to, I guess have access to those features. My vacation visa in Myanmar was due to expire in early April. So I'd been planning to stay in Myanmar until then, and then travel to Thailand to practice in the arsenal industry is over there and plan to stay in Myanmar longer, because the meditation visa extension process can be quite quite time consuming and slow. And I didn't want to hand in passport to the ministry and then be without it in the case that I needed to leave the country quite urgently. So I think it was still in my mind that I would go to Thailand to practice. I'd actually booked my flights already, so that I could get the visa to go to Thailand. I mean, when I was hearing the news about the virus, it did occur to me that I maybe I needed to go to a cave and practice for a few months and work this thing out. There is my practice is at the stage where I can just be in total isolation for many months in a cave. Yeah. And also just logistical difficulties associated with that entered the process of of actually deciding to leave. I was hearing news that the Australian Government had they were closing their borders to non residents and non citizens. And then they had advised citizens return as waiting lists return if you wish to return do so as soon as possible. So I initially booked my flights for one week later to go back to Australia. I Basically scratch my pants, but I didn't do too bad advice. So I bought my flights back to Sydney for the week ahead. And then the day after I bought my bikes, both back within cancelled, because Australia closed all their borders. So I made the I was actually the first instance I thought a bit of a, I guess it was like a bit of a rush. It was like, oh, something is not right. It was like the first bit of, I guess, acute stress that don't about what was going on. Because my plan was only counseling, I needed to respond quickly. So I made the bought flights with another airline to leave, it was two days later, these are quite traveling at the time was quite was tricky, I guess you could say. Singapore, had posed the borders, to both people entering the country, both I should say, non citizens entering the country, and people transiting, so you couldn't transit through Singapore. I was transiting through Kuala lumper. So Malaysia had over the borders to non residents, but they were still allowing trans people to transit. Many other options for me to get back from going to Sydney were to fight rival China and bribe China or Japan. Because of the virus situation there it was, I didn't really want to do that. So I really only had the option to take this fight through the credit requirement. And I took that as soon as I could, because I knew that more flights are going to get canceled. And the day after I flew that airline, cancel a flight to Australia. So I was actually very lucky to get back in time. I didn't think I realized immediately. What am I my my friend told me that the villages were was scared, because I was a foreigner and I was standing around and they were worried about a virus. I think after I left, I wasn't at that stage where I sort of felt anything, any sort of heightened suspicion or was looked upon differently, or just sort of something that my friend told me and I realized, oh, get over something I realized and I thought well, maybe I should keep a lower profile. And I didn't want to pay to leave anyway. Go to this other reaction maybe. But I realized, yeah, I guess I didn't want to cause my friend any problems. When I left Chen, Mei Mei, I think that was when I started realizing people were quite worried about the virus and they were concerned about organism that they may carry the virus of Chinese descent. I'm not obviously, I'm not Chinese descent. It's, I get looked on in a fine way, sometimes in Myanmar, because I'm not mainland Chinese and are not Burmese Chinese. People sort of look at me, and I'm like some sort of other sort of Chinese. This is not during the time of Coronavirus is just like, especially when I'm in man, like people look at me, and they're not quite sure what to make of me. But in March, Aquila can remain during this fire situation, I didn't get a sense that people were a bit more concerned about my presence. And that may have been because I'm Chinese isn't much joy if the virus had spread, wrapped your that stage. But it was still very much. I mean, it was still very much associated with China and it originated in China, people were quite concerned about that, I would say in quarantine, or self isolation, I really have a lot more time to practice and just at home all day, so I can practice. It's different being different practicing at home, in the monasteries. So it's hard to say really, because I sort of back home. But now there's this bar situation. It was like I'm in a situation at home. But it's certainly very different. So I'm sort of working out what is the new normal in terms of my practice. I'm sad to say it's, I'm quite happy with my practice. I get the practice more because I know other things come up. Here like I might watch the news and get a bit anxious or a bit concerned about what's going on in the world. And that that's something to watch. I mentioned that a lot of Western meditation ages incentives are now running online sittings and online retreats. But those are more opportunity to practice in Australia as opportunities to practice with teachers that I wouldn't otherwise get access to insights. I guess I sort of feel it's something that occurred to me when I was in guiding the Chatsworth retreat. I'd actually ordained as an obvious monk, or the duration of that retreat. So I feel like I got a sense more of the art of nature and nada But then he is a novice monk. So that actually also happened quite Suddenly, I didn't go in adding to ordain, I didn't actually think I could, because according to Wikipedia, you're required to get permission from the parents. And that wasn't forthcoming. I didn't actually realize I was going to attain. And then I sort of arrived. And they said, Oh, you can ordain as a novice monk, and then you don't need permission. So it happened very suddenly and quickly. And then I was the other a tree of 28, Westerners, to woman ordained, and another man and I ordained. And because I was our man, I was considered the more senior Mk. So what that meant was I, I would lead the positions to breakfast and lunch, I decided at the front of the demo Hall. Academic talks, I would follow the precision of the pictures out of the demo, admit, people would bow to me. I guess I'm saying I was suddenly suddenly thrust into this position where I was seen as this example, Buddhist tradition, and practice. And I really, I suddenly got this responsibility and duty to uphold all these traditions, and practices. And thinking that really spurred this, you can see it's a realization of another, or been part of nature, I didn't really, it was just something that happened very suddenly, I wouldn't say that I had it, I was something that I chose, but I was in this situation. And I suddenly had this responsibility. It wasn't like, it wasn't something that I chose, it wasn't also something that I felt like I had control over. But somehow, I didn't really have a resistance to it, either. It was just like, now I'm sort of part of this practice, and people see me a certain way, and then have to sort of like, I was suddenly holding me out immediately. And so I hold myself differently. But it's not in a way that was a burden. It was more, this is just the nature of things. And it was your previous experience that I sort of got more of an understanding of an archer and seeing myself as part of nature. And now that I'm back in Sydney, you know, I really do realize how connected we all are. Yeah, I said, I'm not too worried about the virus school myself. Yeah, my my concerns are more around, not wanting other people to get ill and how others will deal with it. And I was in a party, I was quite strict with the measures and be very careful with hygiene. Getting up on myself, I mean, because I really don't want others to get you. So there's a sense of how connected we all are. In a sense of vulnerability, and vulnerability. It's probably the wrong word. It's like our open without our awesome of nature. You can say that way vulnerable to nature. But that's not exactly the right word. We're all just a part of nature. And it's, I guess, it's all just stuff happening.
Host 1:48:17
And now a message about these special Coronavirus episodes. First a caveat about our current podcast being produced during this expanding global pandemic. In this new age of social distancing, face to face interviews are of course no longer possible. An obvious consequence of this is technical. None of the guests we interview you have access to a professional recording studio. Indeed, as some are living remotely in the Burmese countryside, they have little more than their phone's microphone to record and send messages. Our experts sound engineers have done their best to improve and enhance the quality, but there is a limit to even their magic. In a time when major network programs resort to home recorded and mailed and content. We are also trying to adjust to these new rules and limitations. So while we apologize for any difficulty you may experience as you listen to these episodes, we appreciate your understanding of the challenges we face in producing them. 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