Transcript: Episode #134: Freedom Behind Bars
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Liz Gaborit, which was released on November 25, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:18
many longtime listeners know that our podcast platform was initially focused on interviews about the spiritual path that Myanmar offers to meditators and monastics. But when the coup hit, we couldn't in good conscience continue to tell those stories with many monastic sites on fire or occupied by soldiers and the Burmese people living under the military's Reign of Terror. So we expanded our mission to cover a wider range of post coup Myanmar stories. Still, some guests have a unique insight into the intersection of the spiritual with the worldly, allowing a deeper understanding of both these planes. Today's guests fit squarely into that category as you will soon
00:57
Norway so we find everywhere corruption and incompetence stays the free world and it's free leaders like imperishable Inc the way that we're gonna have a good day today
Host 02:25
excited to welcome Liv gallery She is the author of an article we're going to be discussing an article is entitled visited by spirits betwixt in between in meditation and solitary confinement and Myanmar, which is part of a larger PhD project. The PhD paper is we're like water in their hands, which examines prisoners in Myanmar, very relevant topic at this time the study was conducted before the coup, but is highly relevant for current time. So live. Thanks so much for joining to talk to us about your work here.
Liv 03:03
I'm excited to be here and share a bit about my research.
Host 03:07
Right. So your your research, as we talked about, before we did this conversation, your research and the work you do really hit hard at the intersection of what this podcast tries to do with trying to tell stories of meditation and the spiritual journey and the background of Buddhism in Myanmar, and then how that intersects, to make a holistic picture with society and the political movements and the social movements and everything else. And your study really fits into many of these different components, even though it was done before the coup took place. So before we get into the actual study that you did, and the results of it, I think first is just the unusual illness of foreigners being able to have such access inside Myanmar prisons. So can you tell us how that came about and how you were able to get that access?
Liv 04:03
Yeah, well, it also took a lot of work. It took one and a half year, before we actually got the access. I was doing my PhD as part of a bigger project called legacies of detention in Myanmar. It was a project funded by the Danish Foreign Ministry. It was hosted by dignity, the Danish Institute against torture. And I was working together with colleagues that have worked in similar contexts in other countries and who knew how, how delicate it is to work with prison authorities. How patient you have to build B to build up the trust and how it's kind of a dance back and forth. You have to give some to get some. So after one and a half years working together with the prison authorities, we finally managed to build a bit of trust. So we began to To sense that there might be a chance to get inside the prisons, but also knew that we had to be very careful about what kind of access we asked for. And then I realized there was this practice of doing meditation retreats inside the prisons, it was one of very few practices for rehabilitation of prisoners, most prisoners and Myanmar don't get any offers any activities that will actually help them be rehabilitated or reformed, which is otherwise what prisons are meant to do. But in three of the prisons, in Myanmar, there are meditation retreats, and I realized this might be my way into the prisons, because this was an activity that the prison service was proud of. And this was something I could do research about with my background in psychology. So I approached the prison authorities and asked for access to go and observe a meditation retreat inside the prisons, and to interview prisoners who had taken part in the retreats. And in the end, I got access to go to insane central prison for four days to interview some of the prisoners who have taken part in the retreats and to, at one point sit for one hour in meditation with the people who are going through a meditation retreat.
Host 06:30
I'm wondering about your background and approaching this as well, because you're looking at prisons at prison culture and life and rehabilitation. This is situated in Myanmar, and it has a meditation component. So of these three, I guess what I'm asking is what was your entry into this were you looking initially at prisons initially, it Myanmar or initially yet meditation practice which led you to this particular study?
Liv 06:54
I was first looking at at prisons, I fell into prison research when I was doing an internship in the Philippines, working with torture survivors. In that internship, I worked with torture survivors who were still imprisoned, and get to know about what prison life is like. And realize that that is super interesting from a psychological perspective. So once I finished that internship, and finished my master's, and was looking to get into PhD research, I realized that Myanmar was quite an interesting context at this point. So I went to Myanmar for the first time in 2014, at a time where Myanmar was being flooded by international actors that wanted to engage us, like there was a political space opening. Now it was possible to do development work, and it was possible to do research. And then I went there together with a colleague, and we kind of scoped out whether it would be possible to do prison research now, because it was still quite taboo. You couldn't speak about torture, we came from the Danish Institute against torture. We were not sure you could speak about prison, we were not sure former political prisoners would be comfortable sharing their stories with us. But we quite quickly realized that they were not only comfortable sharing their stories, they were very eager. There was a need for prison research, there was a need for understanding of what's going on in these prisons, so they can be changed for the better. There was a need of understanding of why it is so problematic to have political prisoners. So this practice could be abolished. And there was virtually no existing prison research in the country. So we set out to start a project and managed to get the funding to start a five year project from 2016, which is wrapping up this year.
Host 08:59
Right. And as far as the meditation component goes, have you had an interest or a practice and meditation before did that come about just through this study when that came up?
Liv 09:11
Well, when I studied psychology, I had an interest in meditation myself, I went to different meditation courses. I did the MBSR like this scientifically proven stress reduction, meditation from the US and and kind of looked into that as something I might want to work with as a psychologist at some point. So I had some previous experience with meditation. And I have some knowledge and I had just based on my own curiosity, read a bit about Buddhism and the philosophy behind meditation. So I had an idea about what I was getting myself into, but I hadn't sat through a 10 day be personal retreat. Before I did this research, and then that sounds like I didn't know the specific tradition that I would now be researching.
Host 10:08
Right, and that specific specific tradition is the passion that's taught by SN Goenka. That was the the type of technique that the particular prisoners that you were studying were undergoing. Do you know they're of course in Myanmar there are many, many different types of annotation of from ranging from different types of a passionate to Tamata, the the concentration or jhanas and different contemplations of body in mind. Do you know why it was that this particular technique was the one that was chosen for this particular prison?
Liv 10:46
Well, it wasn't chosen as such, it was taken to prison by will go and kill himself. So originally, the prison meditation in this tradition started back in 1993, when we're going to train prison staff in Tihar jail in India. And they started the first meditation retreats. And after those retreats were successful, it's been taken to several countries, it's also in the US. And it then came back to me and my 2008, where Myanmar have a certain pride about using this method, because we're going to I was trained in Myanmar, even though we then developed his method in India. So so they could take a method that was already developed to implement in prison, it was tried, they had showed that it had good results, both for prisoner wellbeing for decreasing conflicts inside prisons, but also for recidivism. So that means prisoners who go through meditation retreats have a tendency to commit less crime after so they don't come back to prison. So they could take this homegrown method and implement it in their own prisons, which also give them a sense of pride that's different compared to with some UN agency comes and gives them a method for rehabilitation.
Host 12:21
So you were saying that Goenka himself, actually, when he was going on one of his trips, I presume, going back to Myanmar from 1990. When he was allowed back in he went on several occasions and met with different people gave pilgrimages to foreign students coming because he was more based in India at that point. But from my understanding, you're saying that that Goenka himself met with prison officials and convinced them to allow access to his teachers and his technique of meditation in those particular prison cells. And the study that you were undertaking, historically, he had come from that it had been on ongoing in some form from Glinka zone visit to 1993. Is that right?
Liv 13:08
Not quite. In 1993 he implemented the meditation in India in Tihar. Jail. All right, okay. It's taken to Myanmar by other people, I actually couldn't manage to find the official description of how the meditation came to the prisons in Myanmar. There, there was a story about how one of the generals who played a major role in the 88 revolution in taking down the resistance movement in 88, how he felt very bad afterwards. And he went to India and he meditated to improve his own karma. And he found this method and took it back to the prisons and Myanmar, to kind of to do something good. After all the bad that he had been doing. This was a story that I was told at the meditation center, but that I could never get confirmed.
Host 14:07
I wonder what general that would be it just the names are running through of like St. Louis, when or mount mountain or saw among those are the three that were quite active during the ABA 290. I guess you were never able to get an actual name from that.
Liv 14:21
No. And I also I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing the name when I didn't get the story confirmed. Sure. Right.
Host 14:28
Right. Okay. So that gives us some background on the existence of this, this particular study that, that you did have these group of prisoners that were learning the Glinka form of meditation, and you were able to have access to that. So tell us a bit about the experience of going in and observing the difference in the parts of the sale or the parts of the prison where the meditation course was being allowed and the selection and involvement and implementation of that course very says the overall prison that you were observing?
Liv 15:04
Yeah, well, it was, it was an interesting experience coming to insane Central Jail. Because they were definitely not used to a visit like that. And they were not used to a foreigner coming with a permit, which was signed by someone very high ranking. So the person was kind of on the other end when I arrived. And they also said in the permit that that I got that there would be high security measures on the day I would come there, which is, of course, not something a researcher is happy to read, because I would prefer to come and observe a normal day in the prison. But since I was there, it wasn't really a normal day. So what I could see in the meditation Ward was that the conditions were better in the sense that there was more space. Space is something that is really needed in a place like insane, because the prison is built for 5000 prisoners, but at the time I was there 12,000 prisoners were actually being kept. So if you can go to the meditation board, and you can have your own bed, that's significantly better than anywhere else in the prison. It was also a place where the food was being cooked for that specific Ward, you would get better food, it was freshly prepared for you. It was prepared by other prisoners who came there as volunteers who had a wish to take care of you as a yogi. And otherwise, it was, it was not much different from the meditation retreat center, outside the prison, in the sense that it was it was a humble place. But it was fairly clean, and comfortable. It was also a place where you could hear everything around you. So it was still, you're still had all the prison sounds around you every time that bell rang, because prisoners had to be counted, you will still hear that inside the prison meditation ward. And then if you went outside the meditation Ward, people would be sleeping in big cells dormitory style is that style of cells where up to 100, people would sleep in the same room, they would sleep back to back, sometimes they sleep so close that they can't turn around because there simply isn't space. So then someone will ring a bell to tell everybody that now we're turning because that's the only way to turn around is that everybody does it at the same time. So I think the spaciousness was was kind of the main difference that I noticed in the meditation ward.
Host 18:00
Right. So as you went into observe these conditions and observe the meditation portion of the prison, those that were allowed into those courses? Well, first, we should ask what was the criteria for selecting which prisoners were allowed to enroll in such a course.
Liv 18:20
You have to be imprisoned for a certain Well, I can't remember what exact period but basically, you have to study in to the prison before you're allowed. And then everybody can sign up, the retreats are split. So it's either male retreats, or female retreats, there are some retreats for all students, where you have to have participated in three retreats before you can continue to one of those, then you sign up. And mostly you will get a space. There's a rule that you can only take meditation retreats a couple of times a year, which then gives enough space for everybody.
Host 19:04
And let's get into your study now. So I think this gives the context of where you were coming from what you were interested in and access into the prison and a bit of the prison context itself. What was the basis of the paper and the research you were looking to write? What were you trying to find out?
Liv 19:21
Yeah, well, what I realized when I talked to these prisoners who had gone through the meditation retreats was that a lot of them talked about hearing voices, or, more specifically, they talked about being visited by spirits. And these stories reminded me of what I heard from some of the prisoners who had been in solitary confinement. They also talked about hearing voices and about seeing things but they didn't say they were visited by spirits. They had a harder time making sense of their experiences. They suffered because of the No. And the Sayadaw in the paper even described it as torture, because he had no way to make sense of it. While the yogi's, they described it quite calmly, and they said, Maybe I got upset at first when I heard these voices. But then I asked the meditation teacher, and he said it was alright, and then I calmed down. So So I started to wonder how can they describe something that sounds so similar? And then have such different experiences? How can what is torture for one P? Just just an everyday experience for another person simply because of the setting? What what is it in this setting that makes it so different?
Host 20:50
Right, and what did you find out as you conducted the survey?
Liv 20:55
Well, as I looked into it, I realized how important it is to have someone to guide you through an experience like a meditation, it can either be the guide from the book you read before, or the meditation teacher you have, or at the retreats, also the Dharma talks they hear every night, someone who helps you make sense of the experience. And what I found quite interesting at the retreats, and also the one that I set through myself outside the prison, is that when you ask the meditation teachers how to make sense of these experiences, they don't really give you an answer. But they just tell you that it's normal. And just continue and you will succeed. And just kind of that confirmation that everything is okay, was enough for these experiences to settle down and don't run out of control. So So firstly, I found the importance of having someone to guide you what the theory would say is a master of ceremony, someone who takes your hand and takes you through the experience. And then the second thing is that the yogi's had a shared community. So if they had these experiences with being visited by a spirit during a meditation, and they felt uncomfortable, they could open their eyes. And they will see that they were surrounded by people who were sitting calmly, and just being surrounded by people who were doing the same and who appeared calm, was also enough to calm people down. Whereas in solitary confinement, there's nothing There's not even anything to look at, besides the four walls of yourself, there's no stimulus. So here, people would instead start to see things just to make up things because there was nothing stimulated their visual senses. And then lastly, there was the difference that the yogi's chose to be there themselves. They had chosen to go into meditation, they had chosen to sit through this retreat. And even though the discipline and the daily schedule in the retreats was actually stricter than the schedule, outside in the rest of the prison, it was something they had chosen to subject themselves to, compared to the people in solitary confinement, who actually didn't have a very demanding schedule. On the other hand, they have a lot of free time to just sit and think and hear these voices. But they were under conditions that they had been forced to be under. And they had no community to get support from, except for whatever their mind could conjure up. And those three things, to have a guide to have a community, and whether it's voluntary or forced, that turned out to make a major difference. Even so it matters of even so it makes it a matter of life and death.
Host 24:12
So you ended up doing a study to contrast the prisoners and what the meditation they're going through with a CFO who was arrested in 2007 Saffron Revolution. So it's basically a political prisoner democracy activist, and he is, he's not on his meditation course to be clear, and he starts hearing voices. you contrast that with the voices that one hears on a meditation retreat, which the meditator is able to deal with, for the reasons you mentioned, but to say it up, is getting increasingly disturbed by these voices and the voices are saying terrible, terrible things there, if I remember correctly, they're perhaps challenging his very notion of democracy and trying to convince him that the tatmadaw is actually a force for good and that he's been very manipulated by Western influences or democratic, democratic influences to misunderstand the situation and he starts to lose his grasp on reality, because he's, he's having to contend and argue with these voices, which are contradictory, contradicting the reason why he was put in there.
Liv 25:26
Yeah, no, that's, that's right. And I think what's also interesting is that the Sayadaw is a monk. He's been trained in meditation, he has experience, more than some of the people that I interviewed from the meditation retreats. And when I asked him, like, why is the prison so different, isn't it in some way similar to the life in the monasteries you lived in before, which was also sometimes governed by a lot of rules, and also in monasteries that didn't have a lot of resources. But he said, without, without the Sangha, brothers, it wasn't the same. So without his community, he couldn't do the meditations like he tried to do meditations. But he just couldn't do them under the circumstances, even though he had extensive experience with them.
Host 26:18
It's really interesting, because you think of silence seated meditation is such a individual and, and private activity. And yet, because this, this activity is happening, in within a community of other people around you, the it actually the community and the social parts of it, even though social is I have to say that with with an asterick, because people are talking to each other, and it's even noble silence. So they're not even to look at each other. But just merely being in the presence of others, is enough to bring a sense of communal feeling or social interaction to the work you're doing and what to say about being in being isolated and confined in terms of where he was imprisoned, he's not able to gain there's benefit and access to the community. I guess one of the things I'm wondering, though, is that with his background of, of meditation, and with drawing upon his many years as a monastic, he, he still wasn't able to use that time in solitary confinement, to be able to pursue his meditation to practice metta to practice insight that the conditions were just too much for him to be able to call up his past history of, of meditation and monasticism.
Liv 27:41
I think I think it underlines exactly how horrible and experienced solitary solitary confinement can be. Because we also, if we compare it to monks going into to solitary conditions themselves sitting in a cave for years, there's still a difference. And that's, that's kind of why I add this aspect of whether it's voluntary, or whether it's forced. Because even if you go into a cave, it's your choice, whether you stay there, or whether you leave. And I think that makes a major difference. And then of course, there are also other aspects of solitary confinement in Myanmar, the silo was beaten up every single day. So the kind of contact he would have with the outside world would be prison guards coming in to beat him up. So that was kind of the only social stimulus he would have every day. And then he would be left alone for his mind to then continue working with that. And, and in that sense, it makes a lot of sense that he goes into a dark place.
Host 28:55
And a key difference that you you also come to, in addition to these, these points you've already brought up is the role of metta or compassion. And metta is as loving kindness as the way it's often often translated. And both sending and receiving loving kindness to oneself and to others. And the prisoners are, that are on the course are receiving metta from the teachers and maybe encouraged to practice it themselves. And in the paper, you're describing how this is making all the difference in terms of how they're able to reconcile and work with hearing those voices. But the meta is because the say it is isolated. He's not able to bring that meta to bear in the same way is that right?
Liv 29:42
Yeah, you could say that. But it's also a matter of, like meta means being related to someone. It means that you need to have someone to give it to and receive it from whereas, when you sit there in solitary confinement, you become what some researchers call you become unhinged, because you become unhinged from all the social relations that make up not only your life, but also part of who you are part of yourself. And I think meta is a great example of how our selves are socially constituted. And solitary confinement and the way the side all falls apart and becomes unhinged from himself. And his reality is, is a great example of how important these relations are. And also maybe an explanation of why medicine makes sense in this world that we live in.
Host 30:48
Right, that's, that's great i, it also brought up memories of my own time in Myanmar. So I came in through the blanket tradition, and in the blanket tradition, one is taught first on upon concentration of the mind. And then one goes to the passion, the Insight body sensations. And only during during the full course that one is on the full, Silent Retreat, whether it's 10 days or 60 days. One is not encouraged to practice metta during that time. Rather you you go through the on upon the passion stages, and then when the course is only when the course is finished, and when silence is broken, does one then practice metta at the end of this. And so, as I came to Myanmar, that was more the format, I was following a real more kind of harsh distinction between the metta practice and the other parts from my knowledge of the course. And as I started to move beyond meditation centers in Myanmar, and go into practicing in caves, and forests and other remote environments, I remember early on some of the monks asking me how I practiced and when I explained how meta was the very last thing I did, they responded to me with alarm, and, and concern. And, and I think this happened on several occasions, I probably didn't really, they didn't really rise above the level of consciousness to remember them now. But they were just kind of casual conversations. But then I spoke to someone who was, was the passionate meditator who was a monk as well as veering into some wakes up practices. And so it was much more in tune with that. And he really expressed a high degree of alarm, saying You cannot do this, this is very, very, very dangerous, you there are invisible beings that you don't know about, and you don't know what you're getting into. And you you must, you must, you must when you go into this new environment, to to start by sending metta and start practicing this way. And that was new for me. And, you know, actually, it's not in conflict with a blanket tradition when you when you when you look at it, from a broader view, as a student, you're going into an environment that's already been created for you by a teacher and authority who's made that so called safe for you to be able to engage in the practice. And there's different things that go on can teachers do that they're they're mandated to do with plain lubricant, chanting and other things to make the vibrations conducive for meditation. And I realized, well, I'm I'm really going off the beaten track here, which is exciting, and definitely the country to do it in. But there's a different set of protocol available for, for, for not just walking into an environment that's ready to go in, but there might be forces, things beyond my understanding. And so that really left a mark on me. And that was the first time in my own development as a meditator, that when I would go into caves, I would, I would start by I would start with metta, which was very new for me. And then as I got as I stayed in Myanmar longer, and I started learning about some of the other traditions, I, I think, not knowing those other forms of practice, I had taken the Glencoe method as kind of the unquestioned standard and certain assumptions about it that I didn't. I hadn't really thought about or contemplated just because that was what I was taught. And as I started to see all these different other formulations and styles of how one could teach and such as like Chemi, and Yang, which teaches they have meta courses for two weeks, or one month or two months. All you do is practice meta. And I went on one of those courses and as I spoke to the teachers and learned that some of their courses have weeks of meta, and only then do you go to the passionate and it's really interesting contrasting this, you know, is just speaking from personal experience, going from the passionate first and then meta gives a certain kind of advantage and being able to really clear out the mind and feel light and then have this wealth of goodwill and compassion for others and, and have unleashed in that way. That's the advantage there. But the flip side of that, starting with metta first sometimes it can be a bit rocky to get off the ground. But then once you do and then you switch over to the passion. There's the passion of practice, whatever form you do is really rough. It's it's really passing through some dark nights of the soul and confronting yourself in different ways and And starting off with metta just gives such a self love and comfort and easiness. So that when those difficulties are met, the mind is, at least my mind. And those moments were so so much softer and so much more peaceful and forgiving and easy about trying to find ways to navigate those difficult corners, were not starting off with metta was a bit a bit more like a war a bit more like, like, like, how am I going to, you know, am I going to survive this and I don't want to fail and just a bit more starker terms of what I was facing. Whereas with metta, it was just so much more easy and peaceful. And so it's not to say one is better than the other, I think one might be better than the other for different practitioners. But just practicing in both different ways, seeing the different sets of advantages that gave. And so I bring in my own personal story into this because it fits so much with what your study was of the role of metta. And I think also as Westerners, I think it's also important to highlight this because as Westerners, we might not take metta, or the things that that are behind it, you know that compassion, goodwill, self love, all of the loving kindness all of the ways it's translated, we might not take this as seriously as wanting to get in there and you know, find out who we are and clean up the defilements and become better people. And so sometimes I think we can underestimate the just the, the role of that time, just kind of see it as happy, good feeling kind of fluff stuff. And it's really not when you when you're in Buddhist Burma and you're seeing the way that people hold the practice there. And the the supernatural elements, they're confronting, meta takes on a whole other purpose that we might not quite understand here as practitioners. So. So yeah, so I'm wondering, as a as a foreign practitioner, yourself, and also as a scholar in the field and a practitioner of your of your field, how you came to how you were holding the idea of metta before you came and the value of it. And then as you saw it integrated in Burmese Buddhist practice, and then it becomes the centerpiece of your study here of just how important it was to have for in these moments of how to say how important metal was to have when you are confronted with these difficult times. So I'm wondering your thoughts on all that?
Liv 37:35
Well, that's a lot of topics to speak to. I want to start with, with your phrase of saying that starting with the personnel rather than meta is like going to war. And I definitely recognize that both from from sitting through the retreat in the Greencare tradition, it took me seven days before I felt I could actually concentrate seven days of sitting with the person meditation for more than 10 hours a day, and not being able to concentrate. And then three days of actually finding a focus and being able to just sit there with the technique, that it felt like a war every day for those seven days. And, and the same was the case for for what the prisoners described. They described asking the meditation tree teacher what was going on, because they were sure that they were sick. Like they were sure that they were dying, or they felt like they smelled like a corpse. Like they had so many experiences that that were so painful in these first days of just sitting with Vipassana. So I do wonder whether their experience would be different if they started with metta. But then also what I see after they go through the retreat is that then metta is the thing that really stays with them. It stays with them in their approach to the spirits. After they've gone through the meditation retreats, they can calmly witness the spirits coming, be kind, give them loving kindness, and let them leave again without fear, but also in their interaction with other prisoners. They can show the same kindness and they often refer to the Dhamma talks as what have really taught them about how to be tolerant and loving towards others and understanding that if other people's people mistreat you or yell at you, they probably carry some pain themselves. And then the yogi's described how they would be able to just sit with metta and allow the other As nurse to to be hard tempered and to change the TV channel on that one TV in the sell for 100 prisoners as they liked without letting it create a conflict without the yogi's reacting with hot timber like they would have done before. I don't know what the result would have been, if it would have been easier for the prisoners to start with metta. I do kind of think that it makes sense to do insight meditation as, as the starting point for prisoners, who often have little understanding of, of themselves and like of, of the situation that kind of made them end up in prison. For some people, they really had to spend a lot of time sitting, thinking about the kind of crimes that they had done, and thinking about the harm that they had caused other people and make peace with that make peace with their past. And I think the persona was well suited for that. But it was also a very painful experience for them. And a very intense experience when they had to do it in these past 10 Day retreats. I remember specifically one of the yogi's that I talked to, he was he was a former Army officer. So he described to me how he had been killing people his whole life, for work. And he didn't realize that was wrong, because he has grown up within the tap model. And only when he killed another officer, and went to prison for that, did he realize that actually killing other human beings is wrong. And then when he went to the meditation retreats, he realized that it was not only illegal, it was also immoral, within a system that he himself wanted to ascribe to. So he had to make peace with all of the harm and suffering he had caused, as being part of the army. And he expressed how he wished he had encountered the person earlier in his life. He hoped that in his next life, he would encounter we pass on earlier, and that he would do less wrong, so that in his next life, he would have the time to become a good yogi, because he didn't feel like he had the time in this life. And I just imagine how it must have been for him to sit through the first Vipassana retreats, and deal with this realization, of having caused so much pain and suffering for others. And not having known how wrong that was. And then to come to a place where he felt at relative peace. He felt that he was now living in accordance with values that he could stand behind, but that he couldn't really change anything about his past. And that he knew that he was carrying a lot of bad karmic energy with him because of the actions he had committed. I think that story, in itself really speaks a lot to the difference between metta and and we pass on and the value of both for his realization and for his future practice, and also of the importance of metta towards himself after being in such a such a complicated situation. And then I think the other thing is that when you're saying, like how I thought about meta and how I think about meta, when coming from a Western tradition, I think meta makes a lot more sense. In an Asian context, it makes a lot more sense when you get get the cultural setting and the philosophy behind it explained properly. Because when I was presented for it as as part of MBSR and mindfulness, it felt kind of flat and empty and fluffy as you call it, because it's like you don't get the full day act of what it actually means of what it actually means to, to think of loving kindness towards someone that you dislike, for example, yes, I can think of loving kindness towards someone I dislike in a Danish context where we're all relatively sim similar, and our conflicts are relatively small. But if you think about loving kindness, in a context like Myanmar, towards someone, you dislike, someone who is your enemy, then the stakes are so much higher. And the value of that practice also seems so much richer. And I think, very relevant today with the conflict and all of the divides within Myanmar that have to be overcome. I think Mensa is really key here in bridging some of all of those divides, and in getting rid of some of all this hatred that can otherwise go on for so many years after the current conflict.
Host 46:15
Right, thanks for that. Getting in more into the meditation itself and the practice that's in the prison, I want to read back something from one quote from your paper which stood out, you wrote, quote, while meditation can be seen as passive or removed from the world, it can also play an active role in enabling people to let to go on with their survival, resistance, or both, and quote, so this reading, this kind of tapped into the concept of what's been called engaged Buddhism in the West, a number of my Burmese friends and talk to them about this concept of engaged Buddhism, they've expressed concern that they don't really hear this discussed or practiced in to the same extent in Myanmar. And and as someone who actively studied it, how do you see meditation not being passive in Myanmar and supporting this survival and resistance? And from what you know about this term of engaged Buddhism? Would you? How would you characterize engaged Buddhism in Myanmar from the role that meditation plays with as meditation is being encouraged to support this, quote, survival and resistance? Is that starting to go into what we in the West are calling engaged Buddhism? Or do you think these terms are just kind of confusing, they're in different cultural contexts. And we should just set that aside from what we are calling and gauge Buddhism in the west and look at a different Myanmar model for a different Myanmar climate and culture and context?
Liv 47:58
Well, I think firstly, it's it's important not to equal depends on meditation with Buddhism, we're going to is very clear about his tradition of a persona being open to everyone, no matter what religion you're from, which is very relevant in the context of Myanmar, during the Vipassana retreats, and they were going to tradition, religious symbols are prohibited. So you're not meant to bring in any sort of religion, Buddhism or other, even though of course, his Dharma talks draw a lot on Buddhist philosophy. But he's very clear that it is as philosophy, not as a religion. I think that's, that's important to remember. And then, I think, whether we call it engaged Buddhism, or practicing loving kindness, the prisoners definitely describe taking an understanding with them from the Dhamma talks about other people and other people's pain, and how that also make them act in the ways they do. Maybe also an understanding of people not as evil just because they act in certain ways. And this translate into their relations, not only to other prisoners, but also to prison guards. And you'll also see this among some political prisoners who don't necessarily take part in the meditation retreats, that the ones that are able to see the other people inside the prison as human beings, with human beings that are just trying to act in ways that makes sense for their life, not necessarily to be evil, but what they have to, to hold on to their job and to make a living and to provide for the A family, they're actually able to make good connection to prison guards as well, which is quite interesting. Some political prisoners will describe how I have a good relationship with this prison guard, so he doesn't beat me. But he goes on to beat the other political prisoners because they're not his friend. And there will be these certain relationships where some prisoners and prison guards are able to see each other as human being and share loving kindness and empathy, and be kind to each other, even within these conditions that are set up to create structural harm. And I think that's good to remember. Also, when we think about what happens to political prisoners today, that the prison guards they encounter inside the prisons are not necessarily all evil. Not all, top middle officers are necessarily evil. But they're caught within a system where they have to commit evil actions. And sometimes they can find small pockets within their system, where they are also able to behave decently, they might be able to, to bring a note to a political prisoner, or to not shoot that person that's in front of them, the small actions that can actually also make a difference. So I think it's important that we, we remember to bring metta and understanding also, when we look at the prison service, and when we look at the individuals who are part of the tap model, even though it can be incredibly hard. Given the kind of evil actions, we see these systems committing, I know people inside the prison service. We're still there today. And who wish they weren't part of that system, but also just can't see any way out of it. And they are suffering under the current situation as well, just like the rest of the people in Myanmar? I don't know it does, it doesn't end with a clear answer, because it's it's such a complicated issue. But let me go back to, to the issue of meditation, for survival and meditation for the resistance movement. I think meditation is very important for the mental health of the resistance movement, it's a very good tool to deal with being in a situation where you're surrounded by so much trauma and so much pain. I think we have to remember that it's okay to step back for a moment to take care of yourself. And that this will enable you to fight for the good cause in the long run. We have to think about the fight in a long term perspective. So the resistance movement has to take care of themselves. And meditation is one way to do that. It's a way to look inside yourself and to shield yourself against the terror that you're spreading. We reasonably experienced the the terrible execution of for political prisoners. And, and I was struck by how could Jimmy according to Myanmar, now, in the last meeting, with his family, also referred to meditation as something he was doing. So he told his family not to, to worry, because he was meditating and he was doing well. And because he was aware that everybody have their share of karma, and that he was able to live with his own.
Host 54:40
Right and I think, in looking at the role that meditation plays towards the resistance and democracy and other things, it is slightly confusing compared to non Buddhist countries, where the role of Buddhist meditation simply isn't isn't a part of the fabric of that society. So in other words in Myanmar, the generals and the military has long used defense of Buddhism and nationalistic monks on one hand, and on the other hand, supernatural beliefs and systems, whether it's wachesaw, or numerology or astrology or something else, to try to justify and extend their control of power. And so I think it's it's much more complicated to be able to parse these things out with the way that meditation or or other things involved in Buddhist teachings or monasticism are something else, finding a way for them to support the democracy movement, and the activists and the resistance of this time. They're drawing upon inspiration and tools and resources, one could argue from the same source as what the generals are. And this just makes it puts a very complicated way of looking at it. I would, of course, argue it's much more nuanced than this, that the or perhaps not nuanced, but those who don't really have this understanding, see, it is coming from really the same pool, in the sense that the generals are perverting this. I mean, they they are perverting a form of Buddhism, which is making Generation Z agnostic or atheist, at least because members of Generation Z are saying that if this is what Burmese Buddhism is, I don't want any part of it because the Burmese Buddhism that then the nationalist and supernatural way that the generals are spinning it for their own means and for their own to prop themselves up is something very different than that, then, then practitioners find when, when they're, when they're taking this on themselves. And so I, but I just imagined that when one looks at using the resources from the wider array of the Buddhist teachings, meditation included, you're contending with and interpreting a form of that practice, which is coming from a similar place than how the generals in the military are, I would argue, perverting it for their uses. So this just becomes a more complicated thing to look into.
Liv 57:24
Yeah, it's very interesting. And I think part of the issue is also there's a big difference between using the symbols, and going through the practices. I'm quite sure if we sent all the generals through a 10 day the personnel retreat, we would have an interesting outcome. Because if you sit people down with their own thoughts in silence for 10 days, they about to have some insights like that's, that's the whole point of these personal retreats. And it would be an interesting thought experiment, to send some of the perpetrators to these retreats and see what happened. Basically, in, in my research, I work from the starting point that everybody has a reason to do as they do. And, of course, I can't speak for for the top brass of the generals, I haven't done research about those. And if I understood why they decided as they do, I would do something with that knowledge that would stop this current situation. It doesn't appear to me that any of the Western commentators who were so happy to write long columns, about what's going on fully understands the reasoning at the top of the tech model. Sure. But what I start to what the starting point for my work is that people have a reason to do as they do. So when I, for example, went into the prison. I encountered mostly prison staff who were kind and polite, but I also encountered one specific prison officer who clearly hated my guts. He was so uncomfortable with me being there, he would he would generally present me as peer comes the young junior genius, and then roll his eyes whenever we met new people. And, and he was very clear in his body language and everything he did. He didn't want me to be there. And I could of course, understand that as him being a bad person, him definitely having something to hide and then just go on with my work. But I work from a starting point where I look for the reason like Why is he acting like such a jerk to me, Why does he keep insulting me. And I'm quite sure that he was shit scared of my presence, it's not a normal thing to have a researcher coming in writing down everything she sees, and being allowed to actually write about that publicly. So I'm sure that he was afraid that I would go in and find corruption and other illegal actions and reveal how horribly they treat their prisoners. But that wasn't really my purpose. It's never the purpose of my research to hang out. Dirty Laundry of those I do research with and about. My research is conducted to understand what goes on, because we need the understanding, and we need dialogue to be able to change things. So I'm more curious about like, why did he dislike my presence? So much? Okay, what is it that he's afraid of? How can I then build some trust with this person, so he will actually allow me to go and see what I need to see to create some knowledge that will be able to push for change in these prisons. I think that's, that's much more conducive for change. When you create research from that starting point.
Host 1:01:26
And when you mentioned about some of these Western writers who are trying to peer into the minds of the general and of the generals in the military leaders and have any idea or clue what they're saying, I think, another In reflecting on your study in general. And this conversation, another thing that has stood out to me, is just the general discomfort among many Western writers and diplomats and journalists and everyone else, with the topic of meditation and seeing it as some kind of religious undertaking, which goes into spiritual realms that they can't quite understand. There, I've seen a consistent discomfort with this. And I think that this discomfort has prevented deeper understanding of the conditions of Myanmar and what people are facing and how they're facing it. Because routinely, when I hear about a Buddhist practice, or a meditation of one of the have a political prisoner or a leader, it simply left it that it's simply described as a blanket meditation practice, which helped them and that's the end of the story. And there's no further curiosity into you know, what meditation were they practicing? What lineage was it? What Teacher What challenges do they face? How did they meet those challenges? What were the the the difficulties of the place where they were practicing meditation and and trying to apply those teachings and on and on and on, and it's endlessly fascinating for me. And when I am able to talk to someone who has practiced meditation, under trying circumstances, those are always what I'm asking, it's always wanting to go deep into what kind of practice did you do? And what were the results? And what were the difficulties, because that is how I can begin to understand where this spiritual practice and fortitude intersect with the difficult worldly lives and challenges that they're facing. But that's not an awareness that I really see in the field of those trying to understand me and more, nor is it a perspective, I see from the spiritual side where which is often largely divorced from material and worldly realities. And really, there can be a spiritual bypass kind of attitude of, well, the world is messy, and everything is according to karma. And we've spent all of our time trying to solve things outside. So this meditation is just an internal practice where we're we're going to try to understand things inside and just let the world be the world. And that can lead very easily into a distinct separation, which I think many Western practitioners have, as in general, but especially when they come to Myanmar. They're just as there are very few Western, the presence of Westerners who are in aid or diplomatic missions or journalism or whatever else in Myanmar human rights. There is very little interest in acknowledging or understanding the role of meditation and the differences and distinctions of meditation. Similarly, put, I would say that of the meditation crowd I've met, there are there there are some that you know, someone like Alan Clements certainly stands out or Alanson. Okay, I could name probably a dozen others. There are definitely some practitioners who are very involved in Myanmar and as serious as they are about the meditation practice. They're also very concerned about the the surrounding context where that practice fits in. But there are many practitioners who willingly keep their eyes shut and really want to see a meditate Should in a vacuum that is separated and distinguished from any of the worldly realities. And so I think that's also why I was in reading your paper and the the angle of the study and the and and what you were aiming for. That was also why I was interested to have this conversation because I think that it's it's just so important to be able to talk about this intersection to be a practitioner, who is not uncomfortable examining and and considering the worldly realities where this practice comes from. And to be someone more interested in the diplomatic or aid or human rights aspect of Myanmar, to not be uncomfortable with where this meditation practice fits into the wider picture they're trying to understand. So I think if there's anything that this platform has uniquely tried to do, and our own humble way, is to examine and bring out that intersection between these two different spheres of Myanmar society, which really then go towards the world. I mean, this is a very unique aspect of Myanmar society. But but this is certainly something that one can see as a universal human experience. And so I think it's very valuable to take an approach that's trying to integrate these these different activities and understand where they fit into a common experience and better understanding the country and the people and also informing us where we could fit in and where we can help by having a deeper appreciation of where these fit together. So I'm, I'm wondering, from your standpoint, in writing this, how much that was a factor or consideration or appreciation as you were looking to examine this?
Liv 1:06:43
Well, I think it reflects that I come at this not as someone who usually is studying meditation or studying religious practices, I study prisons as institutions, and I study what goes on within them as social phenomenons. And I've before this, I studied prison reform, as it's conducted by NGOs in the Philippines, Sierra Leone, and Kosovo. So I've studied different contexts. And I've seen how the different contexts give birth to different prison environments, and how important culture is. So when I went to me and I made sure to first learn about Myanmar culture, and to take Myanmar culture very seriously and to make that part of my study, so not just go and look at the prisons, because they can't be understood in isolation from the world they're in. So even before I went into, look at the meditation practices, this was kind of my starting point. I also started from a point where I see individuals as social beings, I see selves as inter relational, they are created through the constant relations to other people. So, so looking at psychological phenomenon, as things that just happens inside the mind, it doesn't really make sense within this approach, people are always connected to their surroundings and to the people around them. So if I was to look at meditation, that would also be looking at meditation as something that goes on as the individual encounters and connects and interacts with the surrounding surrounding society. So that's, that's one side of my approach. And then another side of the approach, which was was new to me and something that I looked into the for the first time for this study, is what's called the ontological approach within anthropology. And in the ontological approach, you can allow different ontologies to exist at the same time. So an ontology is basically what we believe to be the truth about the world. So one ontology would be like the medical ontology where I could go in and do brain scans and measure what effect meditation hat another ontology could be. The Buddhist philosophy that has a certain way of understanding what meditation means. And in this article, I have the ontologies described by the yogi's and by the side, or the ontology is where these voices are spirits. And when they say their spirits, I take that seriously. And I Go with that understanding of what reality is. And I don't question whether these spirits are hallucinations or voices or whether spirits actually exist. That's not really in my interest. What I do based on this ontological approach is that I go and ask, okay, so this is how you understand the world, what is the consequence of understanding the world in that way. So I go in and I look at, okay, if you see them as spirits, and you can make peace with the spirits, then the voices don't cause you suffering. And I go to the Seidel and I see, okay, if you don't have a word for what they are, the best, the closest you can come to describe them is torture, then they cause you suffering, then what's interesting for me is to look at, okay, what is the consequence of your way of making sense of the world. And then we can go in and work with that, because we can make sense of the world in various ways. And we can reflect upon it and we can change our conceptions of the world, to something that cause less suffering. And, in the end, if we take all this knowledge created from this study, that, for example, leads us to an understanding of, okay, because you have a conception of the world where you know, what I'm experiencing is normal, I don't have to be afraid, then we can transfer that to other contexts. Say, for example, if someone had told this idol before he went into the solitary confinement cell, you might see strange things, you might see strange light on the wall, you might hear voices, that's completely normal, because it is, many people in solitary confinement have these experiences, then he might have been less afraid. And he might not have had so much suffering. But he attempted suicide two times. So So by looking at the consequence of how we make sense of the world, we can also use that knowledge to support people in similar situations, in other contexts.
Host 1:12:44
Right, and that gets to the question of how you went about conducting this study. And you referenced that you spoke to teachers before you began the research that claim there was only subjective knowledge. And so I assume that was one area you had to confront and trying to examine how you would proceed with the how you would investigate the knowledge of of meditation that was in the prison. So how did you in being told from a teacher that was there was only subjective knowledge in the world? How did that challenge or confront the style of research that you wanted to conduct in the paper?
Liv 1:13:26
Yeah, well, that was very interesting. One thing is that it was challenging to interact with the prison that I had foreseen, but I had not foreseen how much resistance I would encounter from the meditation center and from the teachers outside prison. So firstly, it wasn't really possible to get a hold of them before I came to Myanmar, even though they had emails and contact information. No one replied, until I actually found the place and went there. And then I went there. And I managed to set up a meeting with one of the teachers. And he starts the meeting by by saying, I just want to make clear that of course, we agree that everything we can discuss here is all an illusion. You have to sit down and experience this for yourself. And then I sat there, and he had basically told me that any question I could ask would be ridiculous. Because there was no truth that we could get closer to by by talking about this. But as as someone doing field work through anthropological approach, sometimes you just have to kind of break the social norms and you just you just go on and pretend like you didn't really understand that this meant that every question from now on would be unnecessary or did not matter. So I went on with my questions. And, and I did get some information that taught me more about the meditation retreats, but I also realized I would have to sit for a meditation retreat myself to get an understanding, but also to be taken seriously, within this context. I then I did set up one more meeting, because there was another teacher who had actually written a research article about the meditation retreats in insane. But it was published many years ago. And this was a very old teacher. And when I met with her, she didn't really remember much of what was in the article. And she also made it clear that most of the co authors on the article were people from the authorities. So the article was part research, patch propaganda for these new meditation retreats that the regime had set up. That wasn't really useful either. Then I went for the meditation retreat myself, both to get some information, but also because I thought, maybe becoming a Dharma helper would actually be my way of getting access to the prisons, I have seen former political prisoners be allowed to be Dharma helpers in inside the prison after they were released. So I thought maybe that's a way in, I need to be an old student to be allowed that. So I'll go and do a retreat. And then I went to do the retreat. And I had a dilemma. Because part of the rules is that you're not allowed to write during the retreat. And as a researcher, doing field work, I take a lot of notes all the time. That's the way I document what I do. That's the way I generate data. So I had to decide whether I was going to respect the rules of this meditation retreat, and really fully do it, or whether I was going to insist on on doing research, as I usually did. But I decided to not take notes. So I sat through the whole retreat, and I followed the rules. And I, I took notes in my mind along the way, and that I forgot most of it, probably. But I got the full experience. And I think that made me It enabled me to relate to the experiences of the prisoners in a better way. And to not let my my own experiences and my notes about my own experiences take up too much space, within the research, because then I wrote notes for the 10 days after I finished the retreat. And they're, of course, not as precise as they would have been if I wrote them along the way. But it did give me a personal experience of what it means. And it made me able to relate to what the prisoners said. It also made the prisoners take me more seriously, when they heard that I had sat through a meditation retreat myself. I think it was most of the prisoners I interviewed. That was actually what they asked, When I gave them the opportunity to ask me a question. The question would be have, have you done this kind of meditation yourself? So for them, that was key for like, it was key for them to know that. So they had a sense that I would actually understand what they were talking about. So this subjective knowledge, just it. It takes up a lot of space in all of this research. And it's it's hard to translate that into something that you can write in a research paper and that you can disseminate.
Host 1:19:19
And I think the topic of how one qualifies or studies, meditation in research papers is fascinating in of itself. I'm obviously not in the field of scholarship, but from my position. When I started meditating some years ago, I remember there was a lot of talk among fellow meditators of all this stuff is so great, why is why is it not being studied? And why is it not being documented and didn't seem like there was much real work on investigating the science behind why meditation seemed to work so well. And then over the course of years, a lot of studies did come out and there were a lot of very self affirming studies. Is that just showed the value and the success of of meditation. But then since then there's been something of a backlash. As far as I understand, again, I'm not in the field. So you might have a deeper understanding of this. But there has been criticism of a number of the the meditation studies that have come out as being the word I use self affirming as being something that meditators were conducting and wanting to find positive and beneficial results. And so those beneficial and positive results were found. And that actually, there are ways in to go into study of meditation where, or to put it another way, meditation doesn't always help you there, there could be results from meditation, which make you more unstable. And depending on the type of meditation that one does, it can have positive effects, as well as drawbacks, and that the scientific results that were coming in, we're not necessarily open to wanting to see some of those drawbacks. We're wanting to find all the reasons why meditation was valuable to the individual. And so that's what they were finding. And so I know this has been a topic in some sectors of light. And just even without this recent backlash, and something of a controversy, just the very nature of how one brings an academic focus into something so personal and individual is meditation and where there's an inner world, which one can't really document, or is very challenging to document, when you look at other kinds of sciences, is poses much more challenge than those do. And so, I'm wondering, as you went into this, if you were aware of this kind of discourse, or what what your understanding was of how the approach to documenting meditation was being discussed, and by those that were doing it, and as well as when you were going in to take your study? What, what, what concerns or what awareness, you had to want to be objective about something that as you just said, a teacher told you was only something possible to be subjective about so how did you navigate this?
Liv 1:22:26
Well, I genuinely I don't strive for objectivity. In my research, I find that no one is truly objective. So it's much more interesting to be honest about our positions as researchers, so the readers of the research can take that into account. Because everybody have preconceptions when they go into a field. In my case, it's not so much my preconception about meditation that I'm asked about. But I have a preconception that is that I'm a prison abolitionist. I want to get rid of as many prisons in the world as possible. But I've also worked for many years doing research about these places. And of course, I have to say that upfront when I write about prisons, because people need to be aware that I am critical. And I became critical, by reading a lot of research about prisons, and by studying it, studying them. I wasn't a prison abolitionist before I actually went to prisons. And so what went on? So my perspective is, is shaped by the research that I've done. But now it also shapes what I am doing. So I think that would be the most important to add to this discussion is to, to be more honest about who is doing the research, who is publishing the studies. What is the aim of the studies? What I found, when I went into this research about meditation was mostly quantitative stuff that wasn't super interesting to me as a researcher with a background in social psychology during a PhD project that was based on anthropological theory and ethnographic methods. I was much more interested in what is it actually that goes on, like, the qualitative data about how do people experience this? Like, yes, fair, people can document other researchers can document that meditation has effects, but I'm much more curious about how, like, how does it change people to just sit down and think certain thoughts, like a body scan such a simple thing? How does that actually have an effect on people. So that shapes the questions that I ask. And I guess I wasn't sure what I would find, like I wasn't a devoted meditator. When I went into this study, I had gone through a few meditation retreats before, I had taken some of the philosophy behind the meditation with be something I would remember every day. But I didn't practice meditation every single day, before I went into this study, and I still don't I practice occasionally. When I went to Myanmar, then I sat through the personal retreat. And I would come to group settings, most weeks at the meditation retreat, but I would come there just as much to interact with other Yogi's and create data through that, as I would come there to actually have my own practice. I did experience that when I came to the meditation center, mainly motivated to create data, my meditations would be horrible, because I didn't have the motivation to actually sit with them. So it would be challenging. Yeah, there was some hard Sunday mornings. But I think generally researchers just need to be more honest about what's your perspective? Where are you coming at this from? So we can have a proper discussion and a full understanding of the data that is created?
Host 1:26:46
Right, I think another interesting thing about the study and about talking about meditation in in a place like Myanmar, specifically, is that one of the criticisms the meditation might get in the West, I think this is probably less true as time goes on. I think people, many people see the value of the mindfulness revolution in whatever form mindfulness takes, but certainly as it started to develop, and I think there's still a segment that sees this criticism is that it's a kind of privilege action. In other words, you need to have a certain kind of certain level of stability and safety in life, in order to have the privilege and luxury to be able to devote time to practice what is considered by some is just self care, and, and maybe perhaps even pampering yourself with if those conditions allow it for it to happen. And yet, we're seeing meditation practice by those living in extraordinarily difficult conditions, where one can certainly say they have almost no type of privilege, or very, most of their privileges have been completely stripped away from them, whether they're in prison or not. And so what do you find the role of meditation can be for those that are facing trauma conflict, or other terribly difficult conditions that are not privileged to be able to make time and space for a practice of self care, but that are really just to go back to your words are in a mode of survival and resistance, whether in Myanmar or anywhere in the world, really, that are not living a life of privilege or stability? What can meditation do for those that find themselves in those situations based on your study and experience and seeing how it was practiced in Myanmar?
Liv 1:28:31
Well, I think this might, this question might lead us back to the talk about metta and loving kindness. I think some parts of of meditation practices demands a certain stability, or you need to have a place to sit down in calmness, if you're currently joining one of the PDFs, and you're out there in the jungles, struggling for basic survival, maybe sitting down for a meditation isn't exactly available to you. But there's also a big difference between sitting down for a 10 day meditation retreat, and then bringing parts of this practice with you to wherever you are. The prisoners talk a lot about how it's, it's a, it's part of how they approach people in the prison, how they deal with the conflicts and the strain of their living conditions. So they don't just talk about how they sit for an hour every day, once they're out of the meditation retreat. They talk about how, how the whole philosophy and their approach to life has a positive effect on their survival and their well being under these very hard circumstances. But of course, that's after they've sat through a meditate Shouldn't retreat. So if you're thrown right into chaos, without being familiar with any of these techniques, that's a whole different situation. I know some prisoners who have done self study of meditation, because today, there are only meditation retreats in three prisons in Myanmar, which is not a lot. And I say that based on what's still online from these meditation centers, but I'm actually not sure whether the meditation retreats are still ongoing under the current situation. But even for the prisoners, who are in the prisons without meditation retreats, some of them will do self study and find ways to learn to meditate, either they find access to a book, or they learn from another prisoner who knows the technique. And in that way, they gain a technique to do some self care and survive these chaotic circumstances. So I think, whether it's it's for people with privileges or not, I guess that depends on how you define meditation. If you define meditation as as sitting down for hours, then yes, you need a certain sense of stability in your life to be able to do that. But there are other things that you can do that you can do in in many different circumstances. And I think for sure that there's something to be said about how meditation can help people deal with the trauma that they're living through right now. I wrote an article, a short article about women who had been arrested shortly after the coup, together with a Myanmar researcher. And here, one of the women talked about how she was, she was meditating more after she was released, to deal with the fact that she was experiencing a lot of stress symptoms. After her release, she was remembering all the uncomfortable things she has she had gone through during the imprisonment and arrest. And she was she was feeling like hyper aroused, and she used meditation or self care to calm herself down. And to deal with the fact that there was still officers in the street, even though she was now afraid of officers. And so it is something that's being actively used by some in Myanmar. And I think it's a good tool to take care of yourself.
Host 1:32:55
Yeah, you're moving the conversation exactly where I was going to go next. And looking at where this takes us post coup, I was gonna ask what you know about meditation being practiced in prisons now formally or informally, formally, meaning the courses that are ongoing, informally, just meaning political prisoners to the left their own devices that were that we're using it as a way to survive and resist again, go back to your words. It sounds like from what you said, you just simply have no idea what the status is of the formal programs. Correct me if that's wrong, but then also the informal practice, do you? Have you heard or gleaned anything about the presence of meditation as a tool for self care and survival in the prisons in any capacity since the coup was developed?
Liv 1:33:51
I'm not updated on what goes on inside the prisons right now. But I've talked to a lot of former prisoners before the coup, who were imprisoned for many years, and at different times between 88 and 2018. And a lot of them report about using meditation themselves about sometimes organizing in small groups to teach each other meditation. So it would be very surprising to me if there was no meditation going on inside. But also, given the fact that the prison system is under pressure and the state in general is under pressure. We can't be sure whether the formal retreats are still ongoing. But it is a technique of self care that's that's quite normal within Myanmar, so the people who would usually use it outside are probably also using it now inside prisons. And they would also be all the former Yogi's that have sat through retreats and who are still imprisoned. They are probably continuing their practices inside.
Host 1:35:04
Right thanks for that I, I would concur with the we've had several political prisoners on this podcast who recount their experience before the coup and the role that meditation played. And I think for as this revolution and resistance continues to play out, I think that in future years, we're going to learn a lot about things that are simply impossible now and definitely try to bring and amplify those voices of those undergoing it. You spent some time in Myanmar before the coup, and you reference how you don't have access to any knowledge of what's going on inside the prisons. However, you were also in Myanmar, outside the prisons for quite a bit of time developing research and meditation and whatnot. From the contacts that you developed in your work in Myanmar, I'm sure you've been checking in or talking to them about the updates. I'm just curious to learn what you've heard, what in whatever whatever the the context or whatever field they're in, or whatever they're doing that related to your research and your time there. Are there any updates that can be shared about how people are progressing individually? Since the coup and the resistance has developed?
Liv 1:36:28
Yeah, well, I'm speaking to different people. And what strikes me the most is now that it's been so long since the coup. This this contrast between everyday life going on, like usual. And then these extreme acts of violence happening, basically right outside the door, of the people I talked to, and how they managed to deal with this surprisingly well. It's, it's sometimes hard to fathom, like, today I, I spoke to one of my friends, and we talked about the executions. And and I feel like I'm affected by the executions taking place, I feel the pain. And then I talked to my friend, and he knows one of the people who were executed. And he's, of course, also affected, but he also manages to go on and live his life. And this is the incredible strength of the Myanmar people. And this is very important for the resistance that they are able to go on, in spite of all these terrible losses. After my PhD, I actually went on to do a postdoc, and I was supposed to write about the social resilience of people inside prisons in Myanmar. Because I had already witnessed this strength of people in Myanmar, this ability to survive things that are hard to even imagine for people in a safe welfare state like Denmark, where I'm based. And one, one month after I started the research, the coup took place. And rather than doing research about friendships in prisons, and the social resilience that led to, I realized I had to change my whole focus to make my research more relevant for the coup, and to make sure that what I was doing, would support the resistance movement. And at first, I thought the change would be quite simple. We'll just do research about the social resilience of the resistance movement, because for sure, they are resilient. And then, after reading up on resilience and having a lot of considerations, I realized that by doing research about the social resilience, I was focusing on the wrong thing. I was focusing on the people who are suffering under this catastrophe, rather than the people who are actually causing the crisis. So it made me change my focus, to not do research about resilience. Actually, I'm no longer doing any research because I I completely changed my focus to become an activist and support the resilient the resistance movement because that that need is so much more immediate. And if if I was truly going to stay with some sense of integrity, after working with people in Myanmar for so many years, and after learning about all the struggles that they've lived through, and then I felt that what I had to do was to support them in their fight, as well as I could, and creating knowledge, academic knowledge, slow knowledge about how they survive. The crisis, just wasn't the way. So instead, I co founded an NGO here in Denmark called Myanmar Action Group Denmark. And we're working to support the people of Myanmar in the ways we can by raising awareness, and by raising funds to, to the resistance, and to the civilians who are fleeing Myanmar.
Host 1:41:09
That's really powerful. Thank you for sharing that that's to come out of your profession and your role and take on a work of responsibility of advocating and, and supporting outright. That's, that's quite powerful to hear at this time. And I think so many people in Myanmar feel so isolated, and unsupported by the world reaction to, to what's been going on that I think it's really powerful to know about cases where individuals however, however small we might be compared to some of the bigger actors, that they're not forgotten. And that, you know, we're doing a lot in our lives to be able to, to keep bringing this up and keep advocating and doing what we can towards those ends. The thing I wanted to close with, is before we set this interview, when we were having email correspondence, you wrote something in an email that stood out to you said, quote, it is important to me that these issues get tied to the current situation, as I find abstract discussions of research that don't reflect upon the current situation to be frankly unethical and quote, which I wholeheartedly agree and agree with, as well as just the value of time the research into what is this? How does this relate to practical issues that we're dealing with in life. And when we're looking at the resistance movement to violent military coup, it becomes all the more profound. And so I think, in this discussion, we've tried very much to not talk about your research in isolation, which I think is not interesting and relevant either of us, and to bring it into the actual worldly realities of Myanmar, and especially at this time, but I wanted to close with that quote, just to offer you any further opportunity, if you feel there's any additional relevance or practicality that your research has not touched upon, and which is immediately impactful to the situation that's ongoing. I wanted to just to flag this and highlight this to make sure that we just took every opportunity to make this as as real and as helpful and practical as could be. So with that quote in mind is there is there anywhere else that we haven't gone that you'd like to touch upon, before we close.
Liv 1:43:26
I think maybe I just, I'd like to address the listeners and say, I commend you for your curiosity and for having listened all the way to the end. And I hope you will translate our talk about metta loving kindness into action, and find out what small action you can take, whether that's to share a story about Myanmar in your network, or to find a local organization and and send them some support, or to do a loving kindness meditation towards the people of Myanmar, who really need to know that they're not forgotten, then find that action that you can take and do that to support the resistance because we need to continue to support all the way to the end.
Host 1:44:25
Well said in the tradition of Burmese Buddhists, I would respond to that by saying that without without a very well said, and I hope that listeners take that into mind. So with that live, thanks so much for taking the time to join us and talk about your research and your advocacy. And this has been very educational and powerful for me and I'm sure for our listeners as well.
Liv 1:44:46
Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to share
Host 1:45:00
So, I hope you found today's show as rewarding to listen to as we did producing it. These are not easy times. I certainly know this on a very personal level as some of you might have picked up on from what I've shared in this and other episodes. These days, I'm now absorbed and doing all I can day and night. To push through whatever is possible from this humble platform is might also be true for some of you. This often involves decreased sleep to quick meals and heightened states of emotion. If you found this and other episodes of value and feel that this mission is a valuable one, please consider supporting our efforts by making a donation. As we've dramatically ramped up all our efforts, we are only able to keep production through the generous support of listeners like you. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution in any form currency your transfer method, Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by a nonprofit mission that or Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's BETTRBURM a.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites except credit cards. You can also give the PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either the Insight Myanmar better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support