Transcript: Episode #107: The Power of Dialogue

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Soeya Min, which appeared on June 9, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

Soeya Min  01:55

Thank you for having me. Yeah.

 

Host  01:58

So like so many of us, especially in Myanmar, your life was so different pre coup pre pandemic. And I understand that you had varied roles as a travel agent, recording artist event organizer, can you tell us a little bit about those activities and where you were hoping to go before the world started closing in with the pandemic and then the coup?

 

Soeya Min  02:23

All right. Okay, four inch as a travel agent I worked as for like, five to six years. And, and then I wasn't really a recording artist, I switched to i i tried to I wanted to do events, you know, like, those EDM events. And then Pa was in travel industry, I wanted to that kind of events are related to, you know, traveling and stuff, right. So, I, again, more interested in that, and I wanted to do something in that event industry, and then I found some, you know, artists and then I started working with them, I tried to promote shows, and then I become a, like a, like, artists manager and also I started doing, we started doing I would say, like a production house. And and then I always have a house say I'm always interested in music business. Since I was young. My dream was to have my own studio since like 10 or Yeah, I think around 10th grade or after 10th grade I I always told my friends that I one day I wanted my own recording studio and stuff. So when I had the chance to do those things, I I move towards it. And it was I started doing those things back in like 2018 1718 Yeah, and of 17 around there, started working with artists and become and then I aim to have my own record label. And we will we will go going in that direction. Before the coop, even even in the pandemic, we have to say we've we've found ways we find ways to survive through this. And when the coop happens, I know it entertainment industry is hard to say without without people having software might or having extra income to spend or and entertainment. Our industry is, you know, it will be propaganda for the, you know, for, for the military government, so we'll become the propaganda machine for the, you know, a military government, so I don't. And then I wanted to help people. So that's why I and I'm always having people, you know, giving advice, or listening to people because I have, like, I was helping a lot of young artists, and I'm always listening. I'm always like, you know, giving advice. That's why and then. So that's, that's when I started interested in psychology. Because, you know, when I deal with a lot of these young artists and other people, I talked to a lot of people that I find out, okay, why why people have different views, different perspective, different thinking for sure, same events and same, obviously, same stimulation from outside. But, you know, it's the same event, but people have different perspective, and that that's why I started to interested in psychology, and then one could have been a switch. I I wanted to help people, but I, to be honest, with for many reasons, I couldn't join, you know, I joined protesting, like going out in the street in the first few weeks. For various reason, I couldn't like join PDF or stuff like that. So I wanted to help people and make others say, I want to make a difference, you know. So that's why I started doing taking courses in mental health counseling, and then, yeah, also, for my friends, I found it. Take that to heart. Mental Health Counseling Service.

 

Host  07:22

Yeah, so that's a lot there. So let's go into some of those different aspects that you bring up. And when you talk about some of the work you were doing in recording, it's certainly multifaceted and in bringing voices music, entertainment information out on recording, and that being said, I know that appearing on a podcast like this is no new, no new thing for you. In fact, you have your own podcast platform, it's called opinions and thoughts. And on that you interview this wide range of guests and I should mention this is in Burmese language. What made you want to start a podcast and actually when did you start? Was it was it before the coup during the pandemic? Or was it before

 

Soeya Min  08:07

during the pandemic? During the pandemic? Yeah, what? Okay, this might sound cliche or something i doing pandemic I watched, I would listen to a lot of them that was so hard to say I have a lot of free time during the pandemic, because no events nothing, no touring or nothing, right. So I just, I'm just at home thinking well, what to do next and what oh, you know, looking for, you know, how to say, looking for new stuff to read new stuff to learn through the internet. And then once I go through YouTube, like lectures and talks and stuff, stuff that I first I found, okay, Sam Harris podcast, and then and, and then I found Jordan Peterson. And then I found Joe Rogan, you know, and also other stuff, other comedians, like comedy podcasts and through YouTube. So yeah, that's what, that's good. That's what gives me the motivation to start my own podcast and because I thought, oh, okay, like, this is some kind of new thing you know, and, and at that time that like the the biggest ones was Joe Rogan, I think he was getting millions of views on YouTube and stuff like that. So I wanted to start my own because I also have these, you know, how to say, Oh, this is cool. You know, we can exchange ideas and talk freely. And it doesn't have to be like a you know, former talk show or anything it is. You can express freely and You know, and it's also a long form conversation, all the all the other yo. interviews and stuff, more like a scripted and they have like, time limit that's why I started my own podcast because I have I have a lot of connections, you know, both in business side also, you know the art artists, people so that's why I started my own thing. Yeah. And that because literally I have nothing else to do I can that's that's the only i Okay, this is what I can do with that, you know, that said, even if there is no guests I can like for rent and you know, most of my, my two first two episode was it was just me talking about movies used just like that. Yeah.

 

Host  10:57

Right, that's really interesting. I think we share a love. Both of us probably share a love of appreciating podcast as a listener, and liking it so much as a consumer that we both went on to look at how we can actually be on the other side. What I'm curious about though, is podcasting in Myanmar. And I, of course, I've had a podcast and Myanmar also pre coup pre pandemic as well. Although mine was in English. And so it was it was it was hitting a slightly different audience. Yours is in Burmese language. So can you tell us a bit about what's the status? What's the state of podcasting in Myanmar? And I would, I would put a frame on out of like the last two years because I think the pandemic and the coup have both impacted local industries and life patterns in such tremendous ways.

 

Soeya Min  11:49

I don't know about other podcasts, creators, how are they doing on? But for me, most of my listeners are not from not local, you know, now from Myanmar. Myanmar is second, I guess. And, and first of all, yeah, of course United States. listenership it's hard to say, there are a lot of like, people play Santa Fe, and to the analytics of, you know, Apple podcasts and Spotify, Spotify. What I noticed is, if it's like, too long, the they don't finish it. Most of the listeners don't finish it, like 15 minutes to 20 minutes. That's the highest retention rate. That's what that is what I see. And then I, I'm not sure if there is a lot of people listening to podcasts right now, because I think most of my target audience is having a lot of some maybe don't have internet connections anymore, or somewhere in the know, some, some are taking on because what I targeted was young, young people, you know, like 20 to 35. That's that was my intended target audience. So most of them are now maybe some are, you know, as I met, as I said before, maybe in the areas that don't have good connection to internet or some are in the PDF and stuff, you know. Yeah. And yeah, most of the my listeners are from United States. That's this. This is the data show. Yeah, I know. Now, I see a lot of creators are starting their own because, as you know, after the coop, Chow started, you know, Java got famous and go from big back. Bad. He started his own. He started his own podcasts. And when he started, there was a pub. And then after that, I don't see much changes. Yeah. But on YouTube, a lot of my view videos are now having more views. Within last two, two months. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Host  14:23

So another interesting thing about podcasts is they're they're just a different form of media. And even though they are unscripted, they can be casual. It could be an 18 year old kid just talking in his basement about video games, even if it's that it's still media. It's some form of media. And this is especially interesting when you look at Myanmar today where the conventional forms of media are under so much duress. There. There has been so much pressure and terror on those actual journalists from the local media as well as local staff members of international media, trying to report on the story and so on. As we look at the difference between this kind of conventional media and the potential role that podcasts could be playing as a more modern, lighter, perhaps even safer form of media, depending on how its administered, I think it's interesting to look at the difference between what a more traditional form of media can do and what and the role that Podcasts can play. What are your thoughts on that?

 

Soeya Min  15:28

Okay, in the, in the United States or other like Western countries, I think podcasts like replace radio and you know, the other stuff, but in our country, I think people are not used to it, because this is just two people talking, you know, and they are sharing stories, sharing experiences, sharing their opinions, stuff like that. So, people are not really used to it, they are just okay, this is what is this? They are still new to this. And yeah, a lot of like, who has exposure to you know, the big podcast platforms, like, in other countries, they are used to, well, they know what is this, but our, in our country, most of them? Like, what is this? Why? Why should I listen to this to people talking? Or maybe one people just talking? Why? Why can I just listen to some audio book? Or why can I just listen to some, you know, some monks, you know, how you say, explaining the Dharma, stuff like that. So people are, like, still testing it and fodder for conventional media. People are not consuming at all. I think that's what I see. They're just using Facebook. They're just watching Facebook videos, Tik Tok videos. I think it will take a little more like one, maybe one or two more years to get the local audience to get accustomed to this kind of media or this kind of format. Yeah, that's what I think we

 

Host  17:24

Yeah, that's what that's my question. Actually. What what do you think it will take what I think that any media in any culture kind of has a turning point where a critical mass, even if it's a small number, just start to see like, oh, this, this media can do this? Oh, I can consume it this way. And I can, I can gain this from being able to, to take that media in. So what do you think it will take to turn the corner in the podcasting industry in Myanmar, where suddenly not not that it's going to be consumed by everyone, it's not consumed by everyone in America, there's many Americans who've never listened to a podcast, but there, there can be some kind of critical turn where it goes from, you know, a very small listenership to something a bit more sizable. So what what do you think? What do you think might could could bring that shift where it could bring that interest and make it something that starts to inform the public discourse, and people start to their start to be kind of brands and personalities and topics that some percentage a little higher than now start to consume and be interested in?

 

Soeya Min  18:27

Yeah, I think we need more quality content on the podcasting side, also, because there's only a few like, how do you say, there's only is only a handful? You know, not, not, there's not podcasts are not like me regularly putting out stuff, you know, some like to two or three episodes, and then they just disappear for a few months, and then they came back? What do you have to do is you have to on the creative side, you have to believe in it and like, just keep putting out more content, more quality content more? Yeah, just try to put put out more and with a good quality of course, I think that will change that will change it and also how do you say, a little bit more personalities and, and, you know, like, doing other people podcasts, like me doing your podcast, and you doing like, those kinds of like, cross Yeah, that kind of thing has to grow naturally. And they all when they say oh, there's a community there. What, what are they talking about? If they if they find all these people are communicating with each other and there's like Going across platforms and topics and stuff like that happens, and it will get more attraction. And then people, people will be more curious. I think that's, that's good doesn't need to happen. That's, that's why I try to reach out a lot of other podcasts. And I'm always asking, y'all, can I be on y'all? I'm trying to do you know?

 

Host  20:26

Yeah, that's great. And I appreciate you reaching out as well with that. And I think that, um, I do think that there's a certain kind of excitement in the potential of a podcast industry, this is what I was first thinking of is, this is the term that came to my mind initially, is this kind of this nascent Burmese podcast industry that can take off in both Burmese and English, that is able to bring this kind of media on platform concerning issues related to Myanmar. And I think one of the things I say one of the reasons why it's so important to me, is I think that there's this real misconception going back many decades of a very simplistic one dimensional story of what Myanmar is, and who the Burmese people are. And I think podcasts have the ability to break down that narrative, and to be able to expose and expand on how colorful and dynamic and interesting so many aspects of Myanmar culture are, depending on the directions that you go. As I've thought about this further, I think in this podcast industry is not quite the word I'd use. A word that's come to mind since has been ecosystems that there needs to be a kind of podcast ecosystem that's developed where there are, as you mentioned, there are different different podcasts that are doing different things. And I think that's really key. No one is trying to copy what someone else is doing, and just trying to do the same thing. But every the style, the personality, the topics, the guests, the dynamic, the feel, all of that is very unique and specialized to what they're trying to do. And I think that if there a further ecosystem developing of different podcasters, appearing on other platforms, sharing gas sharing, resources, promotions, audience, all of that, I think that's a chance of lifting the whole industry, if you want to call it that the whole the whole ecosystem off where it's at now, and it can, whether it's in Burmese, or English, you know, if it's in Burmese, then it's doing a great job of being able to inform the conversation among the local audience and expand and provide more nuance and detail and color. If it's another language and not Burmese English or some some other language outside the country, then it's it's doing a service of being able to, to bring and share stories to people that would not normally have access into characters and anecdotes and history, that those interested in the country living outside and being foreigners can start to learn and appreciate to a deeper level. So I just think there's so much potentiality and good that can be done from this, this ecosystem starting to support itself and rise up.

 

Soeya Min  23:03

Yeah, that's yeah, that is. I agree with that. That's, but you know, I'm not saying most of the most of you know, Burmese people are a little bit shy. That's, maybe that's, yeah, that's a word. You can describe it. Because podcasting is like, Oh, if I What if I say something wrong? You know what? Because even when I started, I have, you know, even the celebrities that I invited over. Author or riders they know, they know, they know what they're talking, you know, and then they don't have a problem, like, having a conversation, but some others. And some personalities, they have like, oh, but if I say something wrong, what if I do, you know? I mean, it's just relaxed. You know, it's kind of, like, how do you say? Maybe you have to be sure your truths have, you know, some some, some celebrities. I'm not saying I'm not saying not everyone, but some celebrities. They put on a facade, you know, they put on an image for the audience. So, when you're when, when I introduced this kind of conversation type of, you know, back and forth, and you're talking about things and, you know, they find it they find it a little bit maybe intimate, intimidating, or Yeah. You know, and some, some like, oh, even not Not, not the celebrity one that just normal people and who I find interesting or who I buy if they have hoo hoo hoo hoo, I think they have something to share. When I asked them to do my podcast or to my podcast, They're just like, oh, I don't I don't want to share this or I don't want to talk about it, you know? People need to be more open also, you know? Yeah. They afraid they will be judged. For what? speaking their mind, you know, I find it a little. I don't like it. Because if you like, if you come from a place of honesty and you know people will forgive you. I think that's even if we make that mistake.

 

Host  25:40

Yeah, that's really interesting. I, as you're saying this, some thoughts are coming to mind. One is that the the first podcast I got into this was actually before podcast existed. It's since become a podcast, but it was a radio show, then, it was fresh air with Terry Gross by NPR, and I just fell in love with it. I had never to this day, I'm not alone in saying I think she is the greatest interviewer that's ever lived in what she's able to do. But one of the things I really liked when I started listening, and her interviews are about 45 minutes long, and she would have all kinds of celebrities on and not not just scholars and political leaders, but also as actors, athletes. And one of the things I found was that because her interviews were long enough for 45 minutes, and because her questions were were in depth, and she gave space and time for people to answer, the person that came on, kind of had to reveal themselves, and they couldn't just do sound bites, they couldn't just give certain impressions of the way they want to appear. But it went under that. And sometimes you'd find celebrities that weren't really prepared for that. And after 10 or 15 minutes, they they had run through their normal way of of giving impressions of how they want to be seen. And then they realize they ran out of those, and they had to move on to something more authentic. And that just that was one of the early things that really intrigued and inspired me to see how long form interviews would necessarily dig at being able to get into this more nuanced content that conventional media of, you know, news hours, or radio shows or, or or newspapers just gave those, those sound bites, which can be so carefully cultivated. But once you get past a 15 minute mark in an interview, and especially once you get past an hour mark, you you start to reveal who you really are and, and what comes out. And the second thing that I was thinking when I was listening to hearing, what you were saying is I was thinking of Mark marrons WTF podcast. And that's a pod. He also has many celebrities on he had Obama on during his presidency, even though he records it literally, like in his garage, in suburban Los Angeles. And he literally has like celebrities like driving out to like his garage to record these podcasts. But his podcasts are like, so emotional, and like just digging into like complexes and personal problems and failures and struggles and addiction and so much of that. And it's become kind of a known thing that if you're a celebrity that go that if you if you decide to go on his show, you're going to talk about your shit, you're going to talk about your past, it's going to be kind of like a therapy session. And that's just people know what they're getting into. And I think that plays into what you were saying about trying to have to bring people on to, to have some real talk is that in some ways, like both Terry Gross and Marc Maron, they, they incentivize their guests to show like, if you want to come on here, this is the kind of show we do. This is the expectation you are no one is going to go on Marc Maron show and expect to not Chaka, but talk about their childhood and their complexes, it just won't happen. Like, it just won't be a good interview, because that's what his platform is. And when I set up my platform, before the pandemic before the coup, but this motivation has been consistent since then, that was a real priority for me, I wanted to be known as a platform where I would be fair, I would I would take the time to understand the issues, we would be able to explore from different sides, we would have some real vulnerable, intimate kind of talk about to whatever degree the person wanted to bring that out to to be able to have a deeper understanding. And so I think that I totally understand what you're saying about this tendency of Burmese society. And in some ways, one of the the question, the counter questions I would have is, to what degree has this been changed since the coup because I've, I've certainly seen this tendency start to be shifted and this kind of care in how we talk and what we say and I don't want to talk about my station and I don't want to say something that's beyond what's appropriate for who I am and my place and role in this world. I think that those tendencies, to a large degree have been wiped away and people are as people realize they're in the endgame of a life or death struggle that the Latest kind of off. And people are, whether they're talking about, you know, Sitagu Seda or, or, or other celebrities or generals that are in positions of power that they're they're just freely dispensing their opinions, you know, 21 year old kids with no standing are just expressing how they feel about different things. That it to some degree that that lid is kind of off. And we I think we see that cultural tendency kind of shifting before our eyes. So, anyway, there's a lot there, I guess the question I would leave you with, is this sense of like, Where? Where are we at at this moment in Burmese society, and where podcasting could fit in? How could the medium of podcasting in this kind of shifting, changing ground start to play a role where and I understand these are different societies, but especially at this time, where when you look at those examples of the some of the the ways that pod, different podcasts can operate in the American context? Can there be a way to reward and incentivize that kind of sharing, even when the sharing doesn't make you look good, you know, even when you're being so vulnerable, that you're admitting to different? You know, you're not, you're not this perfect Polish person. But I think in many ways, that's what audiences crave that kind of authenticity of seeing who these people really are, rather than the person that they're, they're aspiring to be impoverishing themselves. So what are your thoughts on that?

 

Soeya Min  31:23

Um, yeah, it's shifting, and how, but it's also depends on the audience. Because now, most of the whole country is going through misery and, you know, hardships and everything. So sometimes they, when they consume media, they, they want some entertainment, I guess, the white or maybe some guests, makes them, forget their hardships and your problems and stuff. So it's grow in sudden, how to say certain demographics that, you know, according to age, you know, education levels and stuff like that. But I still think most people who's, who's using internet or using social media, or other form conscious, consuming other forms of media, they still, they, most of them still want to, like, to, to laugh or to forget about the real world. So it's a bit it's growing, but not as much on as far as I would love, I wouldn't want to be, because if it didn't happen, I'm sure I'm sure podcasting will be like, growing like, I don't know, Wildflower. During this time, I think because of the coop, it's, it's shifted, because now, most podcasts are like motivation, or, you know, politics, focusing on all kinds of stuff. Not a lot of stuff on like, creatives, or you know, other other topics, you know, now is mostly congested, and in politics and news, motivation and all kinds of stuff. That's why

 

Host  33:39

and how about your own particular podcast, you you started this during the pandemic, and then the coup hit, I think, when the coup happened, every platform, whether you were selling food, or clothing, or songs or whatever else, whatever the platform was, I think everyone had to suddenly look at well, well, how can my platform and my background skills now play a role and meet this moment and in a way that I can, I can, I can use these this place and this this background to be able to support the democratic movement and so as the coup hit and and and the Democratic resistance started to build up and be formed and Myanmar, what kinds of shifts or transformations did you make to your own podcast platform?

 

Soeya Min  34:26

Yeah, I I stopped for a while and and then I when I started, yeah, I try to bring on more guests that are more from political background and stuff. Because at that time, I think people need to hear what because at that time on on the mainstream or like, on the mainstream in conventional media or traditional media, even on Facebook, right, all the posts are From just hard lying NLD supporters or anti or everything is anti junta, right. And other side is from military, the only two sides, but I try to bring in people who have more of like, like, you know, that's criticizing the energy and other stuff, you know, because I wanted to show the people that sometimes it is true that junta is our main target, but you can't, you need to remember what, what politics is, you know, what politicians are taking, and you know, the Dirty Works or politics, I don't want to get into it too much for here. But I want to show them some, something you have to some people just that you know, how to say, Oh, I support NLD I support and UG. But when we try to point out the mistakes, they all when we have different opinions about what they are doing. Those people are getting, like, cyber bully or, you know, label as Allah and stuff. So I tried to bring a new ones. That's that's what I tried to do doing it. And then now, after one year, doing those kinds of stuff, I'm a little bit back to more of a diversify, I guess, I try to talk to people that writes about science and physics and stuff on Facebook and also tried to interview more artists. Yeah, it has. Now back to what I started before the yes, that's, that's the changes I made in a bit back to but I'll be more focused on political issues, like 60% and other stuff or only 40%. Yeah, that's what that's why when the coop hit all the all my everything was 100%. Like, all this politics. Yeah.

 

Host  37:40

That's really interesting. And I think that the you talk about the need for nuance that it's not just a one dimensional NLD versus Tomodachi. But but there's these deeper things to look at. And I think that's also really the value of what a long form podcast discussion brings is that you're able to have that nuance in whatever direction and whatever kind of guests you want to go with and take the time necessary to explore those matters. And I appreciate the shift you made. I think it's been similar for me, at the time the coup hit, we had a dozen episodes that were in various stages of production, we had a few episodes, some really good ones that were that we're finished, and we're ready to be released. But when the coup happened, we just shelved everything. And we went into trying to tell those stories as urgently as possible. And we've also reached a point a year into this, where I think the telling the stories about what's at what's happening on the ground among leadership, uh, different analyses, those are definitely things we're going to pursue and they're, they're really going to be the, the, the main subject matter that we carry over, I would put it I don't know what the percentage is because we're just starting to kind of balance it out. But but certainly it would be a very high percentage. But I'm also realizing that all of these just as you mentioned, your your other background and interest to science. For me, it's been meditation and Buddhism and spiritual practice. And we all have these interviews, dozens of interviews that we had before February 1 in different stages of production, we're now starting to roll those out again into two. And I realized that that balance is needed. And we recorded a special introduction of those interviews saying that this, it's important to remember that Myanmar is not just a place where these bad things are happening. But it's this diverse society in history where there's so much else to explore. And the gift and the teaching of meditation is something that has inspired the world over in the last generation. And so to be able to go back into those and balance it out, while also in the introduction, also referencing that this is this is not meant to be an escape. It's not meant to be a spiritual bypass, of avoiding the news and that we need to keep this in our minds and hearts and be aware, but it's a way to balance it. So that It's not the only thing that we're doing. So So that's, that's interesting with what you're pursuing as well. I'm wondering also in the interviews that you've done all the guests and the topics that you've covered, what what particularly stands out what's what's a, what would be an example of a guest or a topic where you you learn something really surprising or you some some level of understanding develop that was very exciting. And the podcast format, what, what's a memory of a past episode, you've done that, that that that you think really, really highlights the work you're trying to do?

 

Soeya Min  40:40

Okay, that was one episode we'll wish I did with new Jamyang is a famous singer, and record producer. You have heard of him. He and I talked about this, how you say, other beings, you know, et UFO that, have you? So it's very interesting, and I've never heard you say, matter. person that's, that. I think most that's my impression, maybe I was wrong, because I always thought like celebrities, and you know, singers and actors, like, oh, there's, there's, I don't want to shit on people. But for me, well, when I, I thought, they only care about the arts and their audience, what they what they what they put out. But when I talk to him, he has a lot of real actual knowledge of how these things and he, he talks about a lot of stuff. And then and that's when I understand okay, me, because most of the artists before him I talked to they just know their stuff. But when when they step out of you know, what, what they what they are creating what they are doing with this with their life, and they don't really have a different perspective, like, oh, okay, this I don't want to use like conspiracy theories, but I'm interested in more like your science stuff, and you know, UFO and how the wall actually works. He has, he has the same interests like, okay, these people, like they maybe shadow government, but that kind of conspiracy topics, but when when you actually look at all the things that happen during like this two or three years, you, you, you, you will get more suspicion i Okay, maybe some someone or some, some hidden organization is doing some pest stuff to people, that's more of the more of like, like, thought of strain that I usually now I've more tend to have, you know, seeing all these, you know, pandemic and all these vaccines, stuff, all the stuff going on, you know, so, yeah, but that, that that episode was really, like, I feel like I wasn't alone. Because somebody have the same, like, same thinking, maybe your same same interpretation of some of the bulk Buddhist thoughts, you know, he also shares those kinds of thinking, so, I am the last one I did just before, yesterday, I think it hasn't released and then from that podcast, also, I learned that I know words have power, but when you go some some people, like really take How do you say some, you know, the words democracy and Federalists are, like, really taboo for you know, military people, you know? So, from that episode, I learned that okay, there are ways that we can exchange the same idea without using those words. You know, that's what I learned. Yeah, that's that was. That was really cool, I think. Yeah.

 

Host  44:53

That's great. So I know another topic that you're interested in both personally professionally as well as on the podcast that you get in To is mental health, can you share how you became interested in the subject of mental health?

 

Soeya Min  45:07

Okay, psychology was the first subject that I interested in, because, as I mentioned in the start of the podcast, no I talked to, because when you start your talent management or you production, you talk to these talents, and they have their own issues, you know, and maybe you, you already know this, but most of the artists, they have some kind of issue. That's what I want to say, because they a creative force come from somewhere. How do you say maybe, I don't want to say dark or pain. But yeah, something like a sadness is more, more of a driving force in their creative process. And then I find it really fascinating. It's very interesting, you know. Because, and then I read a lot of stuff. And then I tried to, how to say, give advice. And psychology was the main subject that I interested in when I started doing talent management and everything. And also, when I doing, you know, making, producing music, video or anything, I read a lot of marketing books. Also, marketing is kind of like a psychology, you know, it's just part of psychology because they explore what makes humans like, your product or your, your song or whatever, more, you know. So, yeah, that's why I was thinking, okay, IV, marketing, everything, these human resource is really psychology. So and then I read psychology books, I listened to psychology, podcast lectures on YouTube. And then when pandemic hit one of my friend is she, she's a doctor, and then she knows that I'm interested in though I wanted to help people, she, she said, Oh, you can volunteer at this organization called open heart. And they are helping traumatized people from different backgrounds. So they gave me training, psychological first aid training. And then yeah, from there, I started more, get more into mental health and, and, and with my friends from Singapore, we started our own mental health service. For Yeah, that's why I that's that is how I get into mental health. And, yeah, mostly, I'm more interested in psychology. But it's very interesting because you you are interested in Buddhism, right? Buddhism also teaches you a lot a lot about your mind and how you think that's why I'm always interested in Buddhism and the teachings of Buddha. So it's, everything is related is in it's really hard to say I was a child I am a fan of stoicism so everything is like you have to internal focus is more important than you focusing on you know, outside that's that's why I have this kind of huge interest in

 

Host  49:28

mental health in general, it's a sensitive subjects anywhere in the world. I'm sure that Myanmar is no exception to that. How is mental health regarded in Myanmar? Generally speaking?

 

Soeya Min  49:41

When you say Mandel have they a thing you have some kind of disorder? Learning how to say they think you're just crazy. They had that there's that stigma. Really, there's that's very hard, you know, and people think like, oh, having a therapist or have a seeing a counselor or to stuff, they think oh, you can just talk to your friends or you can just talk to your parents or whatever, but now people are getting to understand it and how to take care of themselves. There are a lot of a lot of services and other a lot of mental health services have popped up during COVID. Also a coupe. Yeah. So there is huge stigma, but we are getting through we are all the mental health community is trying to give the message is okay, and you know, it's, you don't have to be, like, have a disorder of crazy or really suicidal to go see a therapist or counselor. Now people are getting the message wishes, kind of silver lining doing this, you know, this period, yeah.

 

Host  51:12

And I was intrigued to hear in your interview on the podcast in Zagreb wine that you found it much more difficult for Burmese men to seek some kind of help help with mental issues than Burmese women? Why do you think that? So?

 

Soeya Min  51:30

We have this like, oh, yo, Jha, how do you say it's a man's not supposed to cry or complain? You know, that kind of teaching from our parents, and our society? Man has to be tough, you know? So, if life gets hard, you get through, you get up through it. That's that's the mentality. As a Burmese man has, the society has, so yeah, if you like, if you cry, like, if you're a boy, and you cry a lot, they were just oh, you to a boy, you shouldn't cry, you know, the kinds of messages are preventing the men from seeking help. Yeah.

 

Host  52:19

Right. And so that's kind of tapping into this. These gender roles and societal, how society might create certain are encouraged certain kinds of roles from different genders that then people feel a pressure to conform to, and this Boys Don't Cry, as would be an example of one of those kind of gender roles. And I think that in different countries and cultures, the even the ideal form of what we would call masculinity or femininity would would differ according to those those kinds of assumptions and, and ideals of those societies. And so within Burmese culture, and of course, Myanmar is a very diverse place. So you're, you're, as I understand that, but more Buddhist, and in in looking specifically within the constructs of Burmese Buddhism, what, how would you describe how the ideal form of masculinity is characterized in a Burmese Buddhist conception?

 

Soeya Min  53:24

I think our society is more of a traditional society than Buddhist society to be, to be honest, that's that's what I feel because all those traditions are like put mixed with Buddhism to feel like you have to follow those traditions. Actually, those are just traditions like oh, man format are not allowed in some places. pergolas you know that that's you the patio Seattle also said those are just tradition, not not the teachings of Buddhism, you know? Yeah, yeah. So, I think more it's not about the religion, it's about the traditions that we have in the teachings, the history books that we have written, you know, the teachings in the schools and the more of a tradition. If you if you if I have to say amen, I will play more on the traditions and the teaching and the, you know, the kind of say, stories that we spread through our generation through words not not not just written down history just with the woods, stories, you know, oh, so then sudden, King sudden heroes sudden, man in the past and it this way, so you have to act this way. That's okay. Yeah, I think that's more of it. And then then on the, on the, on the religion of Buddhism, because if you if you're really, if you really deep in dive into Buddhism, there's no, there's no there's no like Chanda maybe because it was back in India like 3000 years ago. So there may be some but at the heart of, you know, the compassion, how to say can I miss moody Sienna? And, you know, that's, that's a four main four main things that you have to use in your daily life to that's a that's more of more aligned with teachings of Buddha than having having like, you know poem like misogynistic you know, you know the walk home she did and Burmese right that that stuff for me that's more of a tradition not on not on the religion maybe maybe maybe some some some exaggeration from some maybe a word of shoe or some texts from all this holism. But personally, I don't think it's on the religion. Yeah,

 

Host  56:31

yeah, no, I totally agree with that. And I think that there is and that's why I was curious about the looking at Burmese Buddhist constructions because this is looking at not so much what the religion is telling us but the way that the religion has played out in modern society and culture to be able to, to make different constructs and different cultural norms than you would find 25 years ago and the Buddha's day in India, which is normal across any spiritual or religious teachings, it spreads. That's the, that's, that's the human cultural part that takes these teachings and integrates them with the features of their society. And so what I was curious about and looking at the way that 21st century, Burmese Buddhist society has, has adapted those teachings into their lives society and made meaning of it, how so? So understanding that this is not a pure distillation of the original teachings of the Buddha, but it's rather influenza and adaptation of how they're taking certain parts and interpreting certain parts to fit their own intended contemporary meaning with that in mind, how how would one begin to understand the idealized form of masculinity and what a man should be within the current society?

 

Soeya Min  57:59

Okay, that is that what do you mean is the expectation of masculinity or man from the large majority of society, it

 

Host  58:11

can be characterized that way? Yeah.

 

Soeya Min  58:15

Okay, yeah. We have as as as a Burmese man, yeah. Not just a Burmese man as a man, I think. In general, right. You, you are expected to provide for your family, you know, and also in our, in our tradition, there's like, the elders is just like the father of the family. So when if you elders among your brothers and sister you have to take care of your younger years and younger brothers younger sister plus your family you know, there's those kinds of expectations placed upon Burmese man I think since young and Yeah, and if you can not do it, you as you, you are seen as a failure and, and also y'all you have to have you say, you cannot show like, like, feminine side of your, of your personality. Now is changing like maybe during the five to seven years, it started to shift and started to change. But now I'm over 30 years old, man so on half more than half of my life I experienced this how to say this expectations from society and, and trying to live up, I'm not saying you shouldn't live up to those expectation, but it's okay to feel some sometimes, you know, it's, it's not your it's not some time if you cannot, if you fail, you just fail you have to you the society has to be more forgiving, more lovely. And sometimes you just made a mistake and you are level you are just seen as a failure to, to your whole life does. I think that's not okay. I think. And as a man, you had you, as I've said before, the only you have to be the breadwinner of your family. And if you are the elders, you have to look after your, your brothers and sisters under you. Yeah, those are the main things that I II and also also more of how to say if you if you, but sometimes when you married, right, you say just to they just walk to business, they just put they just put food on the table, and then they neglect the whole other responsibilities, like feeding your wife, you know, having a good marriage or building a good marriage. They, they just forgot, oh, if I, if I put if I if I walk in and put money? That that's, that's, that's That's it? You know, I don't think in a marriage. Of course, if you make money, that's good. But there are other responsibilities as well. You know, sometimes men stuck their families man most, I don't want to say most but yeah, a lot of man's are just that, okay. I'm the breadwinner, I put food on the table, so I can do whatever I like. That's not true, you know?

 

Host  1:02:18

Yeah, that's, that's great. And that's it's great to be bringing that sensibility into having these honest conversations both on a podcast as well as behind the scenes and counseling sessions, and to be helping helping people of all stripes and backgrounds to be able to improve on what they can become looking at mental health overall, not just in terms of gender, but part of trying to deal with topics related to mental health is disability to be honest, to be vulnerable, communicative, open, even, perhaps, especially with those topics that are uncomfortable or sensitive. What do you find are the dynamics at play when trying to discuss these difficult or painful topics within Burmese culture and society?

 

Soeya Min  1:03:04

Yeah, they, um, when? When you come to therapy session or counseling session, I think they are prepared to talk about those things. So I don't see a lot of pushback when the conversation or what they are opening up about leads to to uncomfortable. Topics. Yeah, they're open. And when, when when we have this you know, safe place to talk. Yeah, it's okay. Everybody is like, open and can talk about it. Like, if you want to talk about abuse, or sex or addiction or whatever, they are open to talk. Yeah. Because you don't just you just don't jump into those hot topics in the first session. Right. So maybe a few sessions go through the they have trust him in the counselor therapist. Yeah, it's easy to talk about those hot topics. It's not it's not hard at all. Yeah.

 

Host  1:04:12

Let's create another division I wonder about is we talked about male female What about city versus countryside working with people in more urban versus more rural environments? What what are you finding in the reception and readiness according to that whether they live in a more, more urban or rural setting?

 

Soeya Min  1:04:33

I'm sending more how to say the people from rural areas needs more needs, mental health care, more modern city, I think because in an area to be honest, when you have when you have, obviously, a little bit of money or you can have If you have spending power, people use that to like, use it to have a little bit of how to say enjoyment or happiness. They, they can they can distract the miseries, but in the rural areas, there's there's no way you know to no way they can afford distraction or more harsh when you are living in more harsh Situ situation most circumstances they seek help, but the problem is okay, how do you say the problem is they seek help, but sometimes fees and charges for therapy or counseling sessions bit more of a burden for them they really want to improve their life. But yeah, we that's why we are trying to give free sessions every Saturday, every Friday and Saturday I try to give free sessions and yeah, I think in rural area, because of the current situation political stuff, they need more help than city areas because as I mentioned, people who live in city areas they have they can afford so they can they can have better quality health care, better entertainment, better living standards. So this they are like, little more reluctant to come to therapy or counseling sessions in rural areas. They they are more open and educated on on mental health that, yeah, especially at Mandalay Mandalay from Mandalay town G days, those areas, they are more interested in this than younger. Yong Yong, they just they just come to the psychiatrist of mental health, only when they have like big issues like suicidal thoughts, or you having a serious depression test all those kinds of stuff, only then they come in manually and other stuff, they, when they really feel like they are more interested in it, because according to my according to my client, database, and also the people interacting from in to our page, I see. Yeah, in those areas that people are more interested and interacting with the mental health service providers. And, you know, engagement on Facebook also, I see like that. Because in yunlong people act like Oh, I'm okay, I'm fine. You know, that's kind of Yangon style.

 

Host  1:08:25

That's really interesting. And it's interesting to get your professional background and opinion on, on what you're seeing there. And we're talking now about the value of addressing mental health, regardless of background or gender or location. Yet, you're even beyond this, you're working on mental health issues at a time of real social upheaval and revolution. And so again, we have a bit of a shift. And I guess, actually, we could say three different periods of a free St. Myanmar history just the last few years the normal you can call it, the so called normal times, and then the pandemic and then the coup and these are bringing very different challenges of facing mental health and both in terms of the issues that are coming up among the people as well as the ways to respond to those issues by the professionals. So looking at the past a year since the coup, what do you feel the focus needs to be what are the issues that you're seeing arising from the people in terms of the the absolute terrors and traumas that they're now dealing with?

 

Soeya Min  1:09:35

Yeah. People to most topics, trauma, grief, and he also some kind of some kind of depression. Yeah, widespread depression is maybe going on, but The thing is, in Myanmar, we don't have research on this, on this mental health topic is, you know, not enough research not enough. Organizations focusing on it we only private sectors is working on does that is what I feel how it feels, but I don't know, maybe they're out there maybe some Iancu or Ngop organizations that are working on it, or other government organization, or maybe walking on there, but what I feel is there's not enough research. And we need to do more research. What are the main issues? Like by demographics? I, you know, areas in it, that's what I feel we need when we need more data and research. Yeah. If we have that we can focus on all we should we have to wish areas are agile, and we have to focus your and yet, because we don't have enough data, we don't know.

 

Host  1:11:14

Right. Right. And that's that's a question I was wondering as well. I've there have been several mental health professionals and even organizations in the US that have reached out to me asking what what they could do in their capacity to help and I honestly just don't know what to say the culture and language are different the there's the connections and problems with internet and the, in trying to just administer something. And so for I'm wondering for you, if there's certain volunteers, mental health professionals in the US that are looking to support in some way, you're, you're saying now that that even you don't have a complete idea of the landscape and the needs, given the surveys that aren't able to be done for if you were to respond to someone out there even listening to this, that had a background in mental health and wanted to help? Is there anything that can be done now? Is there any role that professional volunteers could play? Even with the imperfect state of knowing what the context is what the needs are? What the people are going through? What what role could an outside volunteer play right now?

 

Soeya Min  1:12:32

Outside you, you can you can hardly say, yeah, you can just go to that's what I want. We just like what we are doing. We just, you just started you just start your own maybe volunteer service organization and started accepting high ends and looking at talking to them. That's a just have to, I think I That's my thing. immediate thing, thought, but yeah, to, to conduct more research and surveys. That's, that's the most needed area right now. Other than training the professionals giving training to the professionals and yeah, other than giving training, research and surveys. I think that's, that's the most important

 

Host  1:13:38

issue. That could be a possibility. We can talk later about some of these professionals if they what it would look like for them to give some kind of training seminar to local professionals. I think that's a good idea. How about the MDG the national unity government is there anything that they're doing that's addressing the mental health needs?

 

Soeya Min  1:13:58

Yeah, yeah, they have they have hotlines and stuff Yeah, I've seen it. I don't I don't I don't remember what's the name the it's some kind of under Help or maybe woman ministry of the two ministry combined have a hotline Yeah, they are they are also doing something on the on the on that front? Yeah, this mental health and psychosocial support network. Yeah, that is they have office here before but I don't know they still have it on is that by you and yeah, yeah. So yeah. This is UNFPA has this, this mental health psychosocial support network. The that is led by UNFPA program. Yeah, that is something you can check on.

 

Host  1:15:19

Look looking at the PDF, specifically the those that are in the people's Defense Force, I'm sure that they're facing a certain amount of conflict and trauma and difficulty beyond the normal human experience of have you connected with anyone that has joined the PDFs? And do you have any sense of what kind of mental health issues they're facing and what support they need?

 

Soeya Min  1:15:42

Um, okay, not from PDF, but I have. Okay. I have someone from the other side that effect that. So, Molly, interesting. PDF, I have my other other friends, other counselor friends, they have clients, but I don't really know. But what I experienced what I had was someone that defected tomorrow, yeah. Oh, yeah, that is more interesting, because I'm more interested in the other side, the, our side, I know where I can guess you know, what they are going through the. But talking to someone from the, from what you call the, your enemy or your other side, it's more interesting. And it's more challenging, it's more challenging for a counselor because I can hold any judgment or I can hold any, you know, any judgment on him? Because I have to be very open when when you go into sessions. That's, that's very, that's a very interesting experience for me.

 

Host  1:17:07

So what did you learn and talking to him?

 

Soeya Min  1:17:14

I learned about more on the how, how they are institution works. And yeah, that institution is very sad insight. Yeah, that's very sad. War, for me is very sad, because they, they are built upon fear and they are built upon fear. And it's flooding, your insecurity, that's and also I, yeah, it's like, they purposely making a salvo of violence inside your own institution. Yeah, violence, fears, insecurities. That kind of institution, they are based, they are not based on you know, trust. They're not based on love, or they are not based on compassion or anything. They're just based on violence, fears and insecurity. or so. Yeah. It's very sad.

 

Host  1:18:29

So how hard was it for you as a mental health professional to look at these so you're dealing with a client who had grown up and then formed had been shaped emotionally mentally psychologically from these intentionally destructive forces, and you're trying to first of all understand them and then try to you know, reverse the process and bring him out of that, that that destructive mindset that he's been led to be in so as a professional, how did you go about trying to firstly understand the dynamics he was operating in and then try to bring them out to some kind of daylight daylight tried to reverse the processes and effects of what he would have these mental conditions he'd been taught to live under.

 

Soeya Min  1:19:17

Um, first you have to likes as a counselor, you have to be very open and you have to give him space and try to ensure that it's sometime it's okay to how to say try to show that they are people that understand Him or you know, and not on his site as like ideology or whatever but you know, emotionally I support you and your that kind of stuff your first we have to end To stand and hold him in a place where he is not judged. And and then you from that place you try to give him examples of, you know, how to how to treat people with compassion, because you know, since joining the training school and stuff, they are their life this is just like I said before is never ending violence and fears and how to say backstabbing, all those kinds of bad stuff, you know. So you just have to show him, there's some thoughts out there, because he, he or she doesn't have an experience those emotions or those those feelings in a very long time. So you have to what we call is re parenting in, you know, counseling, that's, that's the, that's the way I talked with him.

 

Host  1:21:22

Yeah, that's, that's, that's great to hear, that's also quite challenging to just to hear about the pain and the trauma that someone has been intentionally put under. And it also gives insight into, you know, what we're finding overall in the country, and what they're, how they're being trained, and then how they're responding. With the time of day in general, how they're responding in this conflict of trying to instill the whole country in that kind of violent thinking and destructive patterns. I know that you've also been concerned about not just about where we're at now in Burmese society, but where we're gonna go after assuming that there's victory in that new and that the Democratic Movement is able to win, that what the new Myanmar is gonna look like. And looking beyond that point, looking beyond the point that we are now assuming that the Democratic democratic movement is successful. What do you think needs to happen with mental health issues? How, what kinds of issues do you think are going to be there to be treated and resolved and what what infrastructure needs to be set up to be able to not just administer support from what people have suffered with with the pandemic and, and the coup but also with the prior to that, some of the, the overall issues that you find within society that that need to be treated and administered.

 

Soeya Min  1:22:54

On on mental health, particularly, I think, stigma needs to be done test the work of the professionals, from the site of professional, we need to take off the stigma that has been in the society for a long time. So if you seek help you crazy or if you see how you are weak. That's not we have to, we have to get rid of the stigma. That's the I think that's really important. And also, the second thing is we need to have more research, more data, more surveys, those kinds of stuff. Without those stuff for as a citizen, I don't even know. What's the suicide rate in my country. Don't you think? It's crazy?

 

Host  1:23:48

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So moving on, I want to talk about a related topic. And this is the the final subject to look at in this interview. We've brought it up a couple times already, but look at it a bit in depth. And that's a background of Buddhist teachings in Myanmar meditations, specifically. So before we get into that, I just want to know personally speaking, what is your own background with Buddhism and with meditation? And if you've you have a meditation practice what what different traditions or teachers have you learned that from?

 

Soeya Min  1:24:23

Um, first, my teacher in meditation is my grandmother. Yeah, yeah, I think I was like, six, seven, she teach me how to just focus on your breath. You know, that's, that's a basic that we that I've been taught since I was young and and data I not very long ago. Two years ago, I find the paper Since we've been looking at your body, you focusing more on your body. And then I find mindfulness. Yeah, mindfulness is more more. I prefer mindfulness meditation than just focusing on your, on your threat. iPhone, this is a little bit more different. But traditionally, I think mindfulness is call is what, what is called the study button. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not sure. But what I feel is a mindfulness meditation is similar or saying to the D button, what has traditional Buddhists would call? So yeah, it's, it's more of like, you just aware of what you are doing. Every time. That's, that's, that's what I that's what I that's my interpretation of mindfulness, you just have to be aware of how every time like, every second you have to be aware, you're like, your hands movement, your your thing, your feelings, what are you thinking, you know, how you how are you moving? What are you saying, you know, those, you just have to read. That's, that's, that's, that's why I prefer mindfulness by background. Not much traditional. Buddhist, I read a lot of Buddhists, you know, more of like, myths and legends, like stories. When I was young, after that, I move into the practice or parts of Buddhism, like how to meditate how to. And also I'm interested in learning about what we call a b2b, I don't know what will be called English. I'm all also interested in that part too, because it teach you about your mind, you know, there's a there's a minimize more on photo psychology. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Is I know what I believe, and I don't want to write. If I say too much, maybe I sound wrong and people die. Okay. He's spreading misinformation. That for me, personally, this is just my personal opinion. And I may be wrong. So yeah. Yeah, what I like is those meters University movie, that's, that's fair. Masotti Alaba that's, that's what I more attracted to. Now these days, because, as you as you as a mental health professional, so those things are more practical when you are dealing with clients or whoever, you know, if you have compassion, love, and you know, Sedona and movie, why those kinds of things is more practical than Yeah, meditation is cool for us more like your personal spiritual journey. But the thing I mentioned that there Masotti Alibaba is like, how you how you should treat everyone. So now this I use for my personal spiritual journey, I do mindfulness meditation, and dealing with outside wall I use that been muzzled Tre, that's, yeah. That's, that's how I going through this. This period of my life right now.

 

Host  1:29:06

Right, right. So you mentioned just to unpack a couple words you the Burmese pronunciation. We patterned for listeners that are meditators have a passion as what was that? What was what's the Burmese pronunciation again, at EBITA. Right? Right. So for for those foreign meditators just to unpack that Sati Putana was a is how they'll know that. So insight meditation, that's also called and you you reference moving on from just observing the breath to this insight, compassionate method, according to Sati Putana. This is one of the Sutras of the Buddha. Is there a particular tradition or lineage you follow like Mahasi or Mogok or Goenka or something else?

 

Soeya Min  1:29:49

More of a Mahasi way I think more aligned with because I get teachings from different sources. You know how as how to say when we summit when you when you are doing Summit, you, you try to have more Samadhi when when you while you are focusing on your breath, it's more of a thermal summit that way I think. And then people's way is more gentle and more. How do you say? It's more overall? Overall? Yeah, I think that's what I feel is like more generalized, more calm and not comfy, but it's like you. It's like a bat eyes view. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm Yeah. Yeah, that's why I feel like when you are trying to contest focus on your breath, when you have the willpower to just focus on your breath. And when you and you move it to other parts of your body, you will, you will explore more, I think. Yeah, yeah, that's what that's is more aligned with my heart. See, I think because now I do now what I do is I focus on on my see this on my on my stomach, when you breathe in, you follow the whole press. And when you feel you're done, screw your stomach expand, you know, and when you read out the whole thing, move. Okay, that's, that's, that's more like a Mahasi way.

 

Host  1:31:42

Right. So that's so you've been kind of self taught with that and being able to explore the, the, there are so many teachers and traditions with all kinds of literature that that yeah, I

 

Soeya Min  1:31:53

read books. And I as I when I when I go into manhood I as the adults from the monastery and they also teach me Yeah, I read books. I read online every I tried to learn.

 

Host  1:32:14

Yeah. That's great. That's great.

 

Soeya Min  1:32:19

Because most of the I have a lot of other other friends that practice meditation, the my, one of my friends, he flew to PA he go to Mahasi he go to every meditation center. And yeah, the also from him. I learned a lot. I asked him, you know, okay, he explained. Okay, this is PA way this is. This is my house anyway, this is so No way. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. And also from books as well. Yeah.

 

Host  1:32:56

And how about this relationship between meditation and mental health? You referenced this a bit before. And I think that in, what's interesting to me is that in the West, you you've heard this talked about, for some time, psychology, psychologists and psychiatrists that have been exploring how meditation can play a role in some of the mental health practices they were administering in a professional context. I feel like you might be looking at this from the opposite point of view, whereas they might be coming with mental health issues first, and where meditation fits in being you living in a society where meditation and Buddhist thinking is much more than norm. And mental health is more of a new consideration under understanding coming, which is the opposite of what we find in the West. You're looking at this relationship similarly, but perhaps from a different starting point. So where do you find the intersection between mental health and Buddhist meditation?

 

Soeya Min  1:33:54

Yeah, that's very interesting. You know, what I think is I grew up with, as you mentioned, in a Buddhist society, I also have thanks to my grandma and I read a lot of Buddhist books since I was young. What I find is all every, you know, psychology, or at the end, it's just all all as worthy as saying from West End, in your cycle, psychology, the subject, everything has said in Buddhist Buddhism for so many years, you know, it's just repackaging the same as that's what I feel like you know, Oh, okay. This is how they communicate it this idea is this how they package psychology package, the same concept in different ways, different language, different, you know, types of words and whatever. But the concept nearly identical for me is, you know because now they owe you, when you try to find happiness in your life, you know, you have to be very cold, you have to be compassionate, you have to give out love, you know, those types of stuff are already in Buddhism. And also, if you want to find peace, you have to look inside, and you have to all those things are all always on Buddha always teach to look inside you to find answers, psychology also say that way you have to, oh, you have to Oh, you're trying all your behaviors. Your internalized thinking, you know, so if you look into yourself and dig deeper, dig deeper into yourself, you You will find, oh, this is hurting me this is this, this event was what caused my trauma. And that's why my behavior is in a certain way right now. Those if you meditate, you, you you have these thoughts and experience if you just meditate also, because at the end of the day, meditation is also looking inside, when you when there will be a therapist and counselor try to help clients, you have to look inside. This is the same thing for me. Yeah.

 

Host  1:36:47

Right. Another thing I wonder about that looking kind of these different perspectives of looking in or looking out is that as Buddhist meditation has come to the west, there's there's been quite a discussion about the on one hand, the meditation practices being something that's therapeutic, that's universal, that is just simply mind body connection. And in many ways, is is rejecting the or perhaps repurposing, the understanding of Buddhism, as not a religion but as a kind of yoga good practice for the mind and body and some, in the academic field. This has been known as kind of modern Buddhism or Protestant Buddhism, that has been repurposed it and there I think there are many practitioners that would call themselves they might call themselves secular Buddhists or Buddhist atheists, or they might differentiate that they are a passionate meditator, but they are not a Buddhist, or they follow the teachings but they're not involved in the Buddhist religion. As someone who was raised Buddhist and where the, the, the practice that you underwent and meditation was part of a more holistic understanding of this totality of the Buddha's teachings with we could use the word religion or not, but what's your thought on how that's been kind of separated and carved out or repurposed or used for used as a separate function or activity or even in combination with mental health? Do you see this as something that is going along with overall teachings and religion? Or do you see it as Do you see Buddhist meditation as a, as a separate practice which can really just be taken out and then applied over a wide variety of different contexts and audiences? What's your thought about that?

 

Soeya Min  1:38:38

Okay. If you practice meditation, long enough, you will see the same things and you will become a Buddhist. That's, maybe that's why i That's how I feel like it you know? You understand why you don't know any of the Buddhist texts or Buddhist scriptures or Buddha's teaching, and you practice meditation, maybe you take metal from like, going or Tomasi and you just practice this what a big part of Buddhism and you just practice meditation and you don't need to know a lot about the, how you say, once you see law or see that you have to you have to abide by when you become a monk, although I don't think those are necessary for you. It is meditation and gain benefit from But if you practice long enough, and you, you, you go on that journey, and you at a certain point you will become Buddhists. That's how I feel like even though you are not part of the religion or the religion institution of Buddhism, you, you will become a follower of Buddha. That's, that's what I feel that Yeah. What I want to do is to Yama and the Burmese people need as much support as other people around the world who are being oppressed, you know. And that's, that's why I want to share to the international community and who are living, who are maybe maybe different. Who speaks or who doesn't speak Burmese and who are not from Yama. Yeah, we need as much support as other other other people who are being oppressed by Palestinians. Ukraine's we need as far as same support. So that's why I want to say, I don't want to like, blame or point fingers. But yeah. Yes.

 

Host  1:41:29

I don't mind blaming and pointing fingers. I think that I think that it's an open question, why is this being ignored? And not certainly not by everyone. But, you know, there, this is such a remarkable moment of an entire young generation leading the way and the rest of the country following that is bringing out such progressive values and espousing democratic principles that the world over, at least the democratic world is supposedly in support of, and the level of, of support and engagement and, and, and the role that some of these bigger international bodies have played have just been absolutely shameful, you know, and, and I don't know why that is. And it's so frustrating. And I think when we look at the parallel situations in Ukraine, and I understand Ukraine is really not a parallel story. This is a Russia is a much bigger danger to the world's stability than than the generals are. This is not a civil war or military takeover. This is actually a an invasion of one sovereign power. So there's many other things. So I understand that these situations are not exactly the same, and they can't be compared. Similarly, at the same time, there's this outpouring of international support just from celebrities, from people on the ground from humanitarian assistance, people that are offering to help with medicine or, or, or defense or any number of things that simply like we've never seen in Myanmar, and it's, frankly, devastating. And I think that these although the situations are not equal, and we have to keep saying that, at the same time, the the solidarity of the world that shone towards Ukrainians is and and how Myanmar has just all but then forgotten, I think has to be examined. And I think that I think that skin color has got to play a role. I think that because there's Ukrainians have the right color of skin as people as as those those in Western countries that identify with and that they see and that that simply because there's there's a different skin color in what has been going on in Myanmar, I think that it's somehow less of a consciousness, I think that racism has to be playing a role in why this support is not being there. I think perhaps as well, there's a sense that I think people don't really know me and Mars history that well and and, and so the average person doesn't necessarily understand the democratic transition and the struggles for democracy. And I think there could just be a sense of like, oh, yeah, that Myanmar isn't that a place where bad things happen? And, okay, bad things are continuing to happen. And so, nothing new here, you know, this is just kind of an unfortunate part of the world. And that's where the, the podcast that we're doing are trying to break down that narrative and show more of the dynamic history and what the Democratic Movement is doing and to inform on a greater level. Because I think that, that that for those who haven't been to certain parts of the world and don't know people from those worlds and aren't familiar with the people or the history, that it can just be a sense of like, oh, yeah, you know, things are things are often bad, they're and they're bad. They're now so you know, that's that's really bad and it's, um, I'm sorry to hear but move on with one's life whereas with Ukraine, it really shakes, shakes went up and it there's there's just a level of support to the measure of solidarity we haven't seen. But you know, regardless of the reason why it's absolutely devastating, and I don't understand it, and the some of the things that Burmese have been asking for, for so long, some of the levels of support but still haven't come, they came within hours with Ukraine. And my only hope is that somehow the democratic movement in Myanmar can find a way to carry itself on the coattails of the support for Ukraine. This is not a competition. This is not there's not a jealousy, and certainly Ukrainians are going through absolute hell, it's No one wishes upon anyone what they're going through. And any measure of support and solidarity with them is so important. We definitely stand by them and their sovereignty and their democratic movement. And there's there's no sense of reclaiming the otherwise. It's it's more of that what the the the support that they're receiving, why are we not receiving it in Myanmar? And what can we do, to try to follow up with with what's been successful for them, and try to raise the awareness, the attention, the support the aid that can come here as well and say that see this as, as it's happening in humanity, that this is that whatever the skin color, whatever the geography, if you really look into this, this, these are people that are shouting and trying to claim their democracy and their rights, and the world can't simply stand by and let these go into silence that there is there are actions that we can do on an individual or a wider level that that need to be done. So I think that yeah, I have no problem pointing fingers and, and calling out blame for the more things that could be done that aren't happening.

 

Soeya Min  1:46:45

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid is when you have this, how to say there's principles and you know, that support certain values certain principle. And I say we have we all have other Burmese people are asking support, believe in the democratic process, the democracy, the values of human rights, but when you are not received the same reaction or support or wherever people might turn cynical. No. That's what I that's why I'm afraid, people get cynical and own. These are just words, then then what what to do?

 

Host  1:47:48

Yeah, that's, that's where we're at now what to do?

 

Soeya Min  1:47:52

Yeah, that's, that's yeah, if you, then people will be more sensible. And it will, and our country will be more more of a cesspool than bank.

 

Host  1:48:09

Well, let's hope that's not the case. Let's hope that this conversations like these in some small way, bring an awareness and a focus to what's going on. And people like you and so many others that are, that are doing what they can to spread the word and to not this is not 1988 it's not 2007 This is this is a completely different moment that is building on and culminating from those other moments, and it's an important time and

 

Soeya Min  1:48:32

yeah, and, and, and the thing is that the military is representing the they are using this very, how to say very Buddhism, which is very peaceful and which is very, very therapeutic. Whatever is very, this is a very peaceful religion and they are making it seems like a valid one. That's, that's, that's really crazy, you know. And, and if, if, if, if this stick if the if the stick that is it will haunt you. Buddhism. Yeah. Yeah, it will, it will put a bad name on Buddhism. That's really bad.

 

Host  1:49:21

Quote already has.

 

Soeya Min  1:49:23

Yeah. That's, that's really sad. And it's not cool.

 

Host  1:49:29

No, no, no, it's not and it's, it's, it's all it's, um, no, it's um, this is already something that has to be contended with. And you know, I was when when this whole thing started in the 2000 10s. I was working on a a guidebook for meditators for foreign practitioners coming to practice in different traditions in Myanmar. And so I was kind of immersed in the recent history of Burmese Buddhism of like, let me say it on and Mogok and Mahasi and soon loon and telling the stories and just trying to understand who these teachers were and what they taught and what their lives were just this historical kind of appreciation for meditators who wanted to go and visit some of the historic sites of, you know, where did where it was lady said, are born and where did WebU say it or reach enlightenment? And, you know, where did Mahasi say it to have its first teachings and just visiting these places and trying to to find these physical locations and then tell the stories with them. And as I was doing this, the this is when the Rohingya crisis broke out, and when my Python 969 And I actually wasn't really following or aware of what was happening because I was so much more living in the past. And I was in rural Burmese monasteries at the time researching those places. And it was just interesting and tragic for me that my, the stories I was telling were the same. They were anecdotes about the lives of these great monks lady and Mogok and Mahasi and Su loon and etc. And, and, and I was telling the same stories, and yet they were over the course of months and years they were being received differently. So whereas before they were being received, as from a general audience of like, oh, this is this, this beautiful tradition of monkhood and renunciation and peace? And these are these these former practitioners who taught these values and how wonderful this is, the comments started to shift to like, well, what what, you know, this, this kind of these kinds of stories you're telling, they're this kind of fantasy world and they're separated from, you know, what Buddhism really is and what the monk was actually doing. And there's this, this kind of divergence between what these these beautiful saintly stories that you're telling, and how the and the way that the different monks are, actually today are causing these kinds of problems in harm to the world and the peoples. And, and it was so confusing for me, because I wasn't really following the stories at the time, because I was more immersed in the research. And yet, even though the stories I was telling was the same because of the current situation, they were just being received and understood completely differently. So, you know, in real time, in front of my eyes, I was seeing how these beautiful stories and dynamicism that was to be told, were being polluted, soiled, corrupted by the current practices. So you know, it really has already stayed in the name of Buddhism and Burmese Buddhism and the Sangha. Things change this, this, this gripped and this narrative can be changed again. So it's not like this is this is just a state that we have to accept being in. But permanently, but but it is a state that that that is a characterization that I think does apply today. And unfortunately,

 

Soeya Min  1:52:43

yeah, that's, that's very sad. Yes. All right. So thank you for having me.

 

Host  1:52:57

Thank you for taking the time to listen to this show. I realized that this is an enormously difficult time for many people who love me and more these days, myself included, and at times, you might despair that there's anything at all we can do to stop the horrors unfolding there. However, just the mere fact of staying informed is helping the bear continue to witness and keep a focus on this issue when much of the international media has moved on. And the only way that we can do our part in continuing to provide this content is through the support of generous donors, listeners like yourselves. If you found this episode of value and would like to see more shows like it, please consider making a donation to support our efforts, both monthly pledges or one time donations are equally appreciated. Thank you deeply in advance. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution to any form currency your transfer method. Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person, IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's b e t t e r b u r ma dot org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either the Insight Myanmar or better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support

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