Transcript: Episode #108: Lives in the Balance
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Han Htoo, which appeared on June 16, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 02:16
I would like to caution listeners for the upcoming interview touches upon various topics that some listeners may find upsetting. In an effort to tell the real story of what is now happening in Myanmar, we encourage our guests to share as they feel comfortable doing affirming this platform to bear the weight of their story. as dramatic as the events have obviously been for our guest they can affect even those of us listening from a distance as well. Every member of our team has shed a tear at some point or another along the process of bringing these interviews to you and you might suddenly find yourself affected by this story. If you feel some of the content may be upsetting maybe consider listening in stages or whatever way that works but please do listen to bear witness to this gospel
03:03
don't don't show my face for the TiVo nine know any way that I really had a good day Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, maybe it is.
Host 04:15
This is an emergency episode of The Insight Myanmar podcast. Usually, the interviews on this program do not exactly cover urgent time relevant newsy events usually they are more long form reflections and taking in people's research or experiences or life story but this type of interview is very different and we our team has worked very hard to try to get this complete this interview and complete the episode to get it out as soon as possible. It's not being too dramatic to suggest that interviews like this are literally a matter of life and death and so we are putting whatever resources we have into trying to get this information out and cover this in the best way possible. Because as we've seen, this has been one of the top stories that you're about to listen to in Myanmar in the country, but has not received as much press outside. And so we'd like to add to that while we can. On this episode, my guest is hantu. He listeners might remember him from last year where he did an extensive interview about his background, studying economics at Oxford, going on to lead many of the major big strikes across Yangon and the early months and then eventually having to escape for freedom leaving the country. And he recently wrote an article on the diplomat, the link to that article will be in our show notes. This article concerns a recent death sentence that the military regime has handed down. And that is going to be the subject of today's talk, and who is going to give us extensive details about the circumstances behind this death sentence, the implications of it, the painting a picture of the condemned and those that are connected to them, their family and colleagues. And what this means means for the wider democracy movement to Myanmar. And finally, what listeners can do this is an extremely concerning and disturbing topic, even after a year and a half of very heavy, difficult news, this still stands out above that. And that's why we want to take the time to urgently talk about this and to raise a red flag to our listeners that this is also something that stands out and people should be aware and concerned about. So with that introduction, and to thank you so much for joining us and coming on today to talk about this.
Han Htoo 06:51
Thank you very much for inviting me, Julia. I I'm very grateful. Also the families and all the people who are concerned, also grateful.
Host 07:09
So let's take it just at the beginning what happened, we're going to have some listeners who are somewhat familiar with this case, and others who have no idea what we're talking about as yet. So for those that are completely new to this story, can you catch everyone up to speed on what exactly has happened?
Han Htoo 07:27
Yes, of course. So, after the after the February 2021 coup of Myanmar, the military, a accelerated arbitrary killings and arrest. And now 10s of 1000s of people were arrested have been arrested, and 1000s of people killed and the matter wishes, which we're talking about today is the military decision to proceed with the death sentences of for political prisoners, who are who were resisting the military in different ways, in different capacities. Those four people are now at a great risk of being hanged at insane prison in Yangon. We in member have that sentences, but the government does not have not been literally or really executing these death row inmates since 1989. So it's been over 10 years that these that sentences were never implemented. This essentially means life imprisonment or if you are on the pardon repeatedly, it will be reduced gradually and at some point you can get released from the from the prison. So, now this is a different case. So the legal way is the code would that make valid and hand out that sending this to the converted by the converted, they can appeal for or non execution to appeal for pardon, not from the prison, but from the death sentence to a higher court. And the higher court would postpone the decision indefinitely. Essentially, meaning the death sentence is not carried out. So it has been the modus operandi since 1989. But unfortunately, and to our great worries, the appeals of these four people were rejected by the court, the military court, noted several in one. And the military spokesperson, the spokesperson of the spate state administration counsel, he has confirmed that there will be no pattern and these four inmates would be hanging according to the prison procedures. So with my one of my friend, very good friend, who is also a very good friend of Myanmar, we wrote that article and diplomats briefing people on the situation, and essentially, on what it would mean, for the other people for the modern democracy in Myanmar. And we wrote an article and we circulate within our networks, people we know. And we also write to people, we don't know who we believe, can make a change. And we ask them to use their freedom to to save the lives of these four people. So it is, it is true that the military has been killing without any limits, since a few days after the coup. But now this is just cold blooded murder, with a facade of a trial court proceeding. And, and this would also heavily impact on the fate of 110 other people who were handed out that sentences, including to minors,
Host 12:47
that was that was the question I wanted to follow up actually, there's a lot of different directions that I want to go with this to understand both the context but lives of the people that are being that were condemned, and those close to them and the implications overall for the movement. So there's there's many things I bookmarked directions want to go to give myself and our listeners a proper understanding of this. But one of the things that stands out right away you alluded to, and that's this is a military that since the coup has been killing with impunity, they have literally shot and beaten people in broad daylight on the street children, elderly monks, some, some of which has been recorded there. There have been ghastly recordings of of indiscriminate violence of police just literally firing at people riding a motorcycle, on a nearby road with one doesn't even know what why they were doing it, it seems like a completely random act. There they have killed, tortured, raped and ethnic villages and cities and night in broad daylight and jail cells. So their practice of this inhumane, these inhumane acts, and these atrocities has been ongoing and constant since the beginning. There's no line they've shown they wouldn't cross. And yet, this is something that somehow stands above that. So what is the distinction between a state formally or I don't know if I should call a state, if that's the right term, because this is not a legally recognized body and they did not take power and authorized way. But we can say the regime, what is the what is the distinction between a military regime that is murdering with a lot of so called logical rationale and explanation for why they are taking these axon and how they're carrying them out? How is that different from the hundreds and 1000s that have been murdered and tortured and raped and all kinds of ways before this? Why does this particular test set and stand out above and beyond the already terrible cruelty that we've already witnessed from them?
Han Htoo 14:57
Right so For one thing, although the state administration Council the military, grabbed the power without any sound, legal ground and also kills people, arbitrarily these are just extra judicial killings and, and the these could be understand as the collateral damage of the A in their words the restoration of law and order. And, but, the difference here the distinction here is the use of use of rule of law, the use of the rule of law and cold procedures, these virtues to to cover these broad daylight mother with cold blooded it is it is the institution who is which is supposed to bring justice a ironically have been used to to monitor these people and also it is about bringing revising approval procedure, which is very concerning the proceedings of the not not implementing that sentences has been essentially broken, it is the state denying the rights of the people. And, and, and it also it is also not preceded with grave concerns on the people with death sentences, but also people who are now being tried at court and people who have been handed out imprisonment, sentences, prison sentences, and also people who are resisting the military in different ways as well as people in general. So, this is this is the distinction that I want to say the the use of the use of law to murder people and and the exploitation of a people consent and the a love to to, to foster a culture of fear and environment of fear that they have been doing since the coup also, for some people, a theory is also appealing, but not so much to me, that theory process that now the state administration Council is in is very desperate for international recognition. A and bringing going back to business as usual. So these international institutions and international community include the was liberal Western liberal democracies, and China and India, and also the neighboring ASEAN countries. So he has been the man behind has been denied a dignified legitimacy since the coop. And now some theory suggests that he is now leveraging these bringing back these procedure, the precedent to to a surprise to to demand to rob that legitimacy, international legitimacy he's been longing for.
Host 19:50
So how does that accomplish that how does mean online and the military rulers how do they benefit from making The appearance that they are going to go ahead with this execution and because we don't know what mechanisms or strategies they're playing with, we don't know what what kind of what their, what their actual plan is, but they're certainly going through with this with with this claim that they will have a death sentence and it will be carried out and and that they've authorized this in ways that have used mentioned before. They haven't done that in many, many years, they've taken a further step that they usually don't, as you've written about, and you discussed here, death sentences are often handed out, but they're usually commuted in some way or form. And today, this has not been so how, I guess this is a two part question first, what do you have a sense of the likelihood of them actually carrying this out or of just as being part of some larger game? And second, either way, whichever, however, the strategy does play out, how does it benefit them? How does it bring greater legitimacy to their reign?
Han Htoo 21:06
Right. I mean, I, I hate speculation on people's life. And I, I don't want to see, I sense a chance. But here's the thing. The let me enter your two parts of the questions in one go, the military would definitely get a benefit from this threat by fostering fear and self censorship from the general public and the people who are involved in the resistance movement, this is this is one way of thinking this could horribly discourage any resistance movement against the regime and and from the threat, they could also expect to have some a formal open request with the accomplished from the ASEAN, the current chairman of the ASEAN Prime Minister Honten of Cambodia, he wrote an open letter to general may online asking to reconsider the execution of these for political prisoners and also they could expect some backdoor diplomacy by assuring some concession from the international community which has been by and large, isolating the regime. So, this could be the benefits they could expect from the from the threat. But, but if they really proceed, if they really go ahead with the with the execution The second benefit would have a reverse effect a the ASEAN may even lose a its credibility and the credibility of Cambodia chairmanship approach which is a accommodating and dialogue with the with the junta, so the ASEAN centrality and credibility might be hugely undermined. And the West democracies including EU, UK and the United States, which has been pretty much hiding behind ASEAN and just pushing forward Was that deadlock five point consensus will also be called out. So this would have a reverse effect and huge international backlash from these configurations if they really proceed, but also from the people, they could expect a mixed reaction. For one thing they could foster fear, but I doubt it's the killings and dying seeing people who are murdered by the military has been daily news since the first victim. I think people will just become more determined, and politically, any attempt of dialogue and, and ceasefire or negotiated pathway out from this deadlock situation would have much less a chance than it is now. So I don't really know the chance. We have rumors of all kinds, which were not true, but until now, it is not happening. I doubt I just wish that I will never hear the bad news.
Host 26:56
Let's take a moment to understand those four that have been condemned. Can you tell us a bit about these four individuals two of whom are quite famous and well known and Myanmar
Han Htoo 27:09
right. Two of whom are quite famous and well known in Mima a. Jimmy and because they adore cozia, Jimmy has been a prominent student activist since 1988 uprising and he was a university student. Back then, at Yangon University, he led student organizations student unions and he went to prison from 1988 to mid 1990s, and in 2007. He also led the the Saffron Revolution of Myanmar, where monks protested against the against against the then ruling junta and he was arrested for his involvement in the resistance. And he was released in 2012. So, he is now in his 50s. So this is about him. And Cozido, who is also known as Pewsey adore is he used to be a rapper, he's still the rapper. He started he introduced hip hop to me ama his band called beginning assets published their launch their first album, the beginning in 2000, in the year of 2000. And and then in 2007. He involved he was involved in the 2007 Saffron Revolution, and he was arrested in 2008 and released from the prison in 2011. And he joined the NLD party National League for Democracy the party of uncensored G. And he ran for the election and won the seat he was ran in for and he became a member of parliament. He also ran the second time from 2015 to 20. And now he's arrested after the coup because of his role in the resistance movement. And the rest. The other to plumb you on and on do so are largely unknown. In MEMA, they were arrested last year, the military accused them of, of murder mother of a school teacher. The military accused them the steps the school teacher with a with a knife, but they were people from the resistance movement. These were not a normal a criminal prisoners but political prisoners. So this is a background about these four people.
Host 31:18
Right, and what what have they been accused of? Have they been accused of separate crimes? Or have they been grouped together in something and some similar thread?
Han Htoo 31:32
Write a letter to lamjao. And Andrea's or they were arrested for the same case. They were arrested at different points. But they were accused of the same case. But for a good Jimmy and Kuzey adore. They were also accused of planning and leading a armed resistance in Yangon. And they were arrested at different points and separate cases that's connected.
Host 32:23
Right. I see and how how has the legal proceedings of the case gone on how what kind of evidence have they presented? What commentary would you have on them receiving or not receiving a fair trial? How has the legal proceedings developed in this case up till now?
Han Htoo 32:46
Yeah, so they are right to justice, their right to defend themselves in the face of the law are totally denied. I listened to cosy adores fiance's interview, and she confirmed that because he either didn't get to see his lawyer or talk to anyone he knows from outside of the prison. And the it is a the the trial itself. The court is not even a civilian court, led by civilian judge but military court chairs by active seven military officers and and we know almost nothing about how the proceeding went and whether they have the chance to defend themselves properly whether they for sure the A couldn't bring any human or non human evidence to defend themselves. They didn't they couldn't hire lawyers. So so it is just a facade trial to monitor people in the name of the law.
Host 34:27
So you reference an interview that was done with was aertos fiancee Matheson this appeared in on our Burmese language podcast. This is called Myanmar revolutionary tales. So any listeners that speak Burmese you're encouraged to go to episode seven of Myanmar revolutionary tales and to which is available now on all different podcast apps. You can find that and you can hear the extensive interview that our host of this channel was able to do with the the fiancee and learn more circumstances about the nature of the arrest about the process of receiving the sentence and also just how she's holding up and how she's feeling. I know that you have to have listened to this interview before we've talked for those listeners that do not speak Burmese, can you sum up what your overall feeling was and listening to correct stress yourself about the situation?
Han Htoo 35:33
Right. She is she talk about the situation and how the military denies any legal rights of these poor for people. And she also talked about how they plan to marry in 2021, but all their plans were cancelled, they plan to launch a the jewel album, a hip hop album, she has is also a rapper. And all these plans were cancelled. And she became a involved in the resistance together with cozy adore in the aftermath of the coup, and how they their conviction, their determination were confirmed after the death of the first victim of the military coup in late February last year, so and Cozido was arrested and she also had to escape from the military. She was so desperate and helpless the military the threat of the military prosecution also filter out her relatives and close friend by self censoring them to offer any help for magazine and and she was she expressed her grave concerns she said I didn't even know how he looked like now i i I don't even know she said because your dog is still having his all organs body part working properly Has he lost weight he she didn't know that. So, it is it is quite a depressing situation. And and at the same time I was moved by her calmness determination and the ability to control herself and make it appeal make an appeal to all people in Insight Myanmar also people from all over the wall to use their freedom to save the lives of four people including her fiance i i Am I respect Madison greatly and and I wish people could hear her appeal to to pressure the government to stop killing those people
Host 39:26
so let's move on to that area next Martha's in the fiance of one of the condemned has made in our Burmese language channel. She very resolute very strong and calm as you say she sent out an appeal to for everyone in the country and out of the country to do what they can to stop this from happening. These are there are not just these lives at stake have these four but the precedent of what this says going forward it's just another line in the sand that the military continues to cross and to check what the consequences are and seeing that the consequences are not great. It gives them greater ability to act with impunity on further horrendous acts. And so she is a fiance is calling for those to stand up and do what they can. Let's follow up on that point. What has been the response of the international community to this recent news?
Han Htoo 40:26
Right, the international community the embassies of Western liberal democracies, Western countries, including the United States, EU countries, Canada, the the made statement about their concerns over the execution, imminent execution of these pop for people. And they pressure the military with these statements. This is this is what they do as far as we can observe. And the this week, Prime Minister Honten I believe it was last week, not this week. Prime Minister HomeSense of Cambodia, as I told you before, he asked the chairman of the ASEAN Regional bloc, he made a row wrote an open letter to general mainline of the SEC to to reconsider the execution of anti SAIC individuals. So this is an encouraging step. Because ASEAN traditionally embrace the policy of non interference and a neutral t. So the ASEAN has been a bit banned in that norm over the last year to isolate Myanmar, and apply pressure on the hunter. But still, it still needs some more more works and more decisive standing to really pressure the hunter. So these are the reactions that we are seeing now. And it is largely the same to how they response how the international respond, responded to the earlier atrocities of Myanmar military, with web proven repeatedly and productive. So I'm afraid this would No.
Host 43:32
I guess one question I have with a Xeon is how much do you feel their stance has just been kind of covering their own behinds just saying, you know, expressing serious concerns and, and, and pushing for a reevaluation just so they they look good. So they have that on the record? And then whatever happens, they can say, Well, look, we tried. And it's really just to cover themselves. To what extent do you think that they truly are concerned about the consequences of this being a new stage and the brutality and the atrocity that they're seeing in Myanmar and truly wanting to bring something to bear to be able to leverage and to, to not have them carry this out? And the second part of that question is, should the military not listen to their grave concerns? Are they suggesting or do you see further steps that Azerbaijan can take that would actually have some teeth? Or are they not really going to go beyond just issuing grave concerns in your opinion?
Han Htoo 44:42
Right. So for the first part of your question, I don't think ASEAN doesn't have any interest in in no As executing these four people, ASEAN has been engaging with the hunter against the will of the majority of Myanmar people. After in the aftermath of the coop in April last year, me online went to Jakarta to do agree that he would implement five point consensus of the ASEAN which includes immediate a halt of all vital lenses and dialogue with all relevant parties accepting the humanitarian aid from the ASEAN through the AHA center send wishes to humanitarian branch of the RCN and also to implement a visit of the ASEAN Special Envoy to Mima which is a essentially the foreign minister of the chairing a country of any particular year. So, this regime five point consensus is largely backed by the by the by China by India by by the United States can either and like a the the consensus enjoy the a the the very broad support from the unlikely on diverse countries with different ID points. So, the we can say that the these countries, Western democracies, staying behind passively behind that ASEAN consensus. Now, this year after one year after the agreement, the the five point consensus has not been realized yet. So, people are now questioning the ASEAN central tea in handling international response to the crisis in Myanmar and ASEAN is now bleeding a credibility in that friend Myanmar, Myanmar has been a pain lately for ASEAN. So this ASEAN interest, further fathering with these atrocities, not only these a situation in particular, but this is a huge individual case with super important relevance. So this could end up mind us in central the furthermore in Myanmar response in touch international community's response by but they didn't include any implication or threat. They would carry out should the military doesn't confirm a which could essentially means the, the temporary A, the pause a the resignation, like kicking out of Mima from the grouping the ASEAN itself or or applying more pressure and applying economic sanctions with the military wishes so much very important for military after the sanctions regimes of the Western countries. So these are the drugs they can use, but they didn't signal any of those. And then for the military. This statement could still be regarded as a toothless one. Like the other s Thoughts of ASEAN since day one?
Host 50:04
Right? So certainly you laid out a roadmap of what ASEAN can actually do, should they find the backbone to do it of having sanctions or even taking an extreme step of kicking them out. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that many of the Southeast Asian countries and the some of the strong world leaders to run them are not exactly known as bastion of human rights. And so it's, they might not go as far as what we've seen the last year and a half of the military trying to reinsert the rule, but there's definitely something of a complication and then hypocrisy of the problems that are existing within their own country and the discomfort of this rather rogue agent and the Myanmar military. That's just perhaps a more extreme version of the more civilized way that they're trying to present themselves. And so I wonder what, what your thoughts are about where some of these other Southeast Asian rulers and the Xian Council where they sit at evaluating the criticisms of their own rule in their country, but then seeing a more extreme version of that, and Myanmar, and just the discomfort of the awkwardness and how they, how they manage a response of something that's gone too far, whilst at the same time not cleaning their own backyards.
Han Htoo 51:29
Right, right. You're right. Also, what the ASEAN what consents ASEAN, and what they want is the regional stable tea. And, and the absence of security, threat, and illicit trade, like drugs, or human trafficking, which sometimes follow armed resistance, DD armed conflicts inside national borders, which transcend these. Yeah, so the symbolically, of course, the ASEAN words, a suggests the secession of a immediate succession of these five lenses, and human rights violation. But like you said, this is what they do, to a lesser extent, and in a more nuanced, or smart way, in their own countries. But what they really concern is not the atrocities, I would say, just the stability, and a source of the regional security threat. So the execution doesn't really fit into that picture directly. But of course, it will instigate more resentment from the resistance, which could further escalate the conflicts.
Host 53:25
That's right. And that's, that connects back to an earlier thing you were saying that I was I bookmarked for it to come back to you were mentioning that this could very well create fear in the hearts of other activists who are are not, who can be accused of anything anytime, and just taken away by an apparatus of the state with impunity that, as we see with this, if they're able to get away with it, and this would immediately put everyone else at risk, although it has to be acknowledged, everyone is already at risk in the country. Anyone who, from any background, participate in or not participated in anything, there's no safety with what the military has been doing. But on the other hand, one of the things I was, I was also thinking was one of the things that's really impressed me with this current revolution, and I think stands apart from what we've seen, and other times of attempted revolution, or resistance, is just this lack of fear. And of course, people have fear. It's everyone has a sense of fear in these situations, but perhaps it's not the absence of it, but it's the overcoming of it. And we've seen terrible, terrible brutality in the last year and a half. And very often when I especially on this platform, the guests that I interview, they point to some of the worst atrocities as not creating fear. But creating further motivation is driving a further wedge into people that maybe weren't engaged and now they're engaged or maybe even had some mild support of the military and then had to withdraw that after something that happened and so One of the things I find interesting and perhaps even a bit encouraging, is this sense that that these previous brutal actions, which were really just to cut off a few heads and have everyone else, cower in fear that they just don't want that to happen to them, that's not really created that kind of response. They're their most brutal actions and most humane actions, especially with social media and the way things are shared there. Now, it's actually had the opposite effect of what we've seen in other times that it it has further motivated people and further inspired them and angered them and unified them and set them and people that were were on the fence or or just not involved, for various reasons, have them have have chosen to engage. And this is all coming. This is not a scientific or comprehensive study this, this is a sense that's coming from the hundreds of hours of interviews I've done, where consistently guests have talked about, after certain things have happened, that have been crackdowns by the military people, the democracy movement has actually been strengthened as opposed to previous times. And so, I wonder, I wonder about that as well, I can certainly see many people having quite a quite a big fear that this could happen to anyone anytime now. It's just another way of death of all the death and destruction they've already rocked on the people in the country. But already we've seen just from the time the verdict was announced, there has been a tremendous anger and, and activism in and outside the country at this this kind of new line in the sand that they're crossing. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that as well.
Han Htoo 56:41
Yeah. I totally agree with you in saying that, it should be if the military is a spat in fear it could be the action would be counterproductive and produce more determination. But fear I mean, a from the general public, from the loved ones of the people who are in the resistance by the military signaling that they don't really have any limits or send the line in the sand say they will they will just do what they want to do to operas this and the and the consequence and for the for the part of the resistance, it is it is true that there are so many fearless people in Myanmar who were proven themselves heroes champions of the country's cause for democracy. But at the same time, it is about human human lives. Their their risk calculations have to be more careful, they have to be a less they have much less space to operate in. A but at the same time, we can express more resentment and more determined a mind and retaliation on different fronts. I mean, we can we can look at these. The decline of the street protests of millions of people after they started shooting people and killing them arbitrarily. These physical protests has been a symbolic, just a they have been so small that they are important only in symbolic senses. It is it is not about fear, but we're talking about human lives. Right. And people are still supporting and involved in directly indirectly in the in the in the resistance to topple the military rule and kick them out and bring justice by At the same time, we could expect a mixed reaction of a average people who are just living their lives. Some self censorship from them and retaliation from the people and more resentment from the, from the resistance.
Host 1:00:31
Let's let's move into the international community beyond ASEAN, the Western liberal democracies, as you referenced when I first asked this question that there has been a predictable response of dismay and, and condemnation of this by many of these Western countries, which we all would have expected, and it's been they've been quite furious at this, but beyond their furious statements, and I don't know what even threats they can make now, what do some of these western countries that have protested this and have condemned in the strongest possible terms, can they do anything beyond simply just another statement, that is expressing shock and horror and asking them to not go through with this too, they have a greater role they can play in being able to stop these planned executions take place.
Han Htoo 1:01:30
It is, it is not about a that threat, I I think apart from these sanctions, and and these statements, this little thing they can do, or they can, they can of course, pressure the Aussie and and and take responsibility for engaging with the military, when take the responsibility for the failure of the five point consensus which could wish that pressure could be passed on to the military from the ASEAN but rather than threats that they can signal or really a carry out if should be, this is a another way of looking at it should the military really carries on and proceed with the execution? I think the normalization and gaining legitimacy internationally would be much more difficult. The military could expect that and and it is also difficult, it would also be difficult for these democratic countries to normalize with the N N to N intended really carries on support the military effort to bring people to business as usual. But also what they can threats. It just came to my mind. I am not sure about the a the political implications and the extent of the threat. They can they can use the threat of severing diplomatic ties or not recalling their ambassadors and just have some consular officers in memory. This is the one they can do. But of course they can do it but I'm not sure they would use that threat a in our case now.
Host 1:04:45
Right Is there a date for when the execution is supposed to take place?
Han Htoo 1:04:51
We we we hear things but these are not official. And and these are just rumors, it is a not worthy of any medium coverage. So we had dates, but the military doesn't give a date dates and and the they just said there will be no pattern and the prison authority can proceed with with what they have to do further a few days ago, the prison authority tool to Radio Free Asia, Myanmar admission that they haven't received the final protocol to really execute. So this is what we hear.
Host 1:05:59
I want to take just a moment and go back to two of the primary individuals who were condemned and because their lifetime of activism and work really stands out. And I think there are representatives by virtue of the work they've done there. It's not just their own individual lives, that that we examine but also how they are representative for wider social movements that are taking place in very different ways. So if we look first at their thought, as you mentioned, he started as a hip hop artists, he actually brought hip hop into Myanmar, he's credited with that there's the whole generation waves and Rock the Vote. The intro to this episode is a song that is by Martha's in his fiancee, so who's also a rapper, so we we featured her rapping to start this episode. And then he later became a legislator himself. So had this very interesting non conventional path. But what I want to just spend a moment looking at as hip hop is the role of hip hop and resistance. Of course, hip hop came about as a medium of resistance it in the black ghettos in America, especially it was describing and depicting the kind of life that much of white America didn't understand and didn't really cared to know or even believe. And it was really a tool of, of resistance and a fighting oppression and of shining a light into the kinds of things that were happening and hip hop roots have been like that everywhere around the world. It's been it's been used in these kind of powerful ways. What can you tell us about how when hip hop came to me Mr. Howe, especially was there Oh, who is one of the condemned here. So you played an active role in this how hip hop became this act of tool of speaking out against repression, against oppression against supporting the resistance in all kinds and tolerance and a more equitable society? How what can we understand of the role that hip hop has played in 20 years in resisting the military and Zerto and Matheson's role in employing hip hop for those purposes, going into the start of the coup and how hip hop has continued to be a very important and relevant art form now as well?
Han Htoo 1:08:28
Right. So, they introduce hip hop to Mima with their first album and and hip hop became a representation of the rapture from the from the the the total isolation of the country back in those military rule days and it represent difference, it represents change, it represents us and, and quickly it's became a a used as a medium by by people to, to change to influence the way people think to to represent about the the wrongs the problematic aspects of the society, including the government, the society patriarchy, and and hip hop became a new symbol of a new representation of change and rapture in MEMA. So cosy adore also personally made songs about democracy, his his vision of a new member that he liked to see, and, and revealing and covering the the the unspoken aspects, the political taboos that the military didn't want to hear right. So the military didn't want to hear. So this is this the how hip hop is perceived in MEMA. And, and, yeah, and how they introduce that culture in Myanmar.
Host 1:11:26
That's, that's great, thanks for telling us that. And looking at the other prominent activists coach, Jimmy, whereas was their thought we look at the role of hip hop and a tool of importing hip hop into and using it to relevantly and locally within the Myanmar culture. We now as we turn to coach me, we see someone who leaks 1988, perhaps 2007, I'm not sure about that. And certainly 2022. And so within one life of an individual, we see a series of resistance movements, that he has institutional history of that he has been involved on the inside out, and through and through with his attempts to try to bring more democracy and freedom to to Myanmar, despite this military regime. And so, in examining his life, it also comes to light that he is representing this, this multi generational and multi decade striving towards trying to create a better country. It's not someone like many Gen Z, who came of age during this, this current protest movement, this current in the advent of the coup, but this is someone whose life has really been characterized and marked by his attempts to to create a better country in spite of this military rule. And so how is that important or significant in him in Ko, Jimmy being targeted in this way, obviously, these are these are not random people, they're going after these are symbols, these are these are people that stand for something and they don't want only to possibly execute the person but they're hoping that their message and what they stand for, well, also that that will also be affected will also be impacted beyond just the person so we have to look not just at the people, but what they stand for and why they're considered so dangerous. And you've explained that was their thought with hip hop, as we look at co Jimmy with his lifetime of activism. What does this represent what in his life, what themes or elements do we see of what he's carried and done for Myanmar? And why is that something that the military is wanting to put an end to and feel threatened by?
Han Htoo 1:13:57
Right, so I would say just the preceding thing, came to my mind. And and also it is about erasing the memory and denying the mere existence of difference. I think they're their actions symbolize that and for Jimmy, like you said, a lifetime of activism and, and sacrifice. And this is the military is now preaching. This is what to expect. What'd you do? What'd he do? What he does, so well? Um, it is it is a about a grave precedent. And a the values that go Jimmy represent freedom, democracy and then new Myanmar, they they effectively symbolically deny all of these and here is a message for the international community this is this is the insult in the face of the efforts led by the ASEAN to have a dialogue with Assam a essentially means, listen to the listening to the difference, and sit down and talk about the differences and make a mutually acceptable set of dishes decisions over how to proceed with the new Myanmar. Now, this is another yet example of the denial not also of the dreams of millions in Myanmar, but also the mediation. And, and, and the approach, it is an insult to the international community this represent that.
Host 1:16:45
Great, right, at this point and hearing how devastating this news is and the grave implications for it. And even some of the big actors and what they're trying to do and not even knowing what kind of influence they have. I guess the question comes for those of us listening in places of safety is there you're someone who's very closely involved in this whole case, the families, the colleagues, the process, you've written an article on the diplomat, is there something that regular people can do? That would mean anything? Is there something that listeners that have gotten to this point and are equally concerned and disturbed by the news being shared? Is there any action any small action that those people listening can do that would matter at this time to try to call attention to it or even to possibly have an effect of, of intervening in the execution and the lives of these individuals?
Han Htoo 1:17:49
Right, so I can I can say that, first, please spread the words. And second pressure the people who are who are in a position to make a real change your government representatives, or even the ASEAN if you can, write pressuring them, and and, and bringing the case to their attention to to use their power to stop that Frosties and save of save the lives of four people and, and pause the military's attempt to establish that grave. Proceed and this is what they can do. Spread the wars and, and reach out to your representatives and other governments who who have the power to make any real change.
Host 1:19:01
Right, thank you and our platform inside Myanmar compared to some of these greater larger media entities. We're a very humble platform. We're just trying to bring attention in English to better understand the events in the going on in Myanmar, especially since the coup this it's been concerning that there has not been a lot of media attention or press outside of Myanmar on this, as one would expect, hence your article on the diplomat. And so that's also why we wanted to urgently take on this project when you came to us and to be able to spend the time and space to understand this in depth because there's four non Burmese speakers there's not a lot of places that you can go to learn more and be updated about what's happening in the context of it. The individuals involved the implications, and that's why it's so important to be able to use our space and our platform, however humble it is to be able to take this on And then explore it at a greater depth and get that word out to a greater extent. And so that's what we're doing now. But for those that have not listened to this, the it's in your hands. So if you are able to bring others to listen to this or to, to be concerned and understand what's happening, or if there are any local officials that in your respective places and homes that you're able to write, to get the word out this this really is a moment not just a passive listening and feeling sorry for the events unfolding, but in seeing is, is there anything that a that can call the attention of group of people in other places to be able to put more pressure and more concern, and spread more awareness that this this is above and beyond, as you have explained, this is above and beyond some of the terrible cruelty that we've already witnessed? And I think there could be a sense of just a numb down of like, oh, one terrible thing after another and one awful event followed by an equally or even worse awful event. And so there could be kind of a numbing of like, oh, yeah, it's just things are are so bad there that are happening, but this is a departure from what we've seen and should it proceed as the regime is claiming and should more sentences be handed down this is a an extremely disturbing development that as much as possible, one wants to stay ahead of and see if pressure can be placed.
Han Htoo 1:21:36
So I agree with you, and I just like to add, use your use your freedom and rights, you have to change to make a change to save the life of these four people. And and please spread the words I believe any, any any anyone counts in this fight any assault her no matter how small they would be writing a letter, making a campaign posting about the news on your social media, please do anything that you can to, to to save the life of four champions of democracies, democracy and human rights.
Host 1:22:49
Yeah, thank you for that those are important words to keep in mind. And I really just thank you for taking the time to come on and talk about this, I, you've been in an interesting position of giving us all of this range of technical information on recent history, their current developments, you're close with the colleagues and the family as well you've written the article. So you're wearing a lot of hats and you've been this kind of resource person for providing and giving us this information. But you're also a human and you who are affected by this as anyone would be by something that's that's so emotional and so terrible. And so, maybe we can just end with checking in with you and how you felt during this interview, how the process has been for you to be playing such a critical role in such a dark case with such terrifying implications. How have you been in what was it like taking the time to discuss the range of things we covered in this interview?
Han Htoo 1:23:51
Right, so to respond to your question, I would just say I wish I wish I could. Talk more about the case to you. And and in in in a more energized way with of course better with more energy and in a clear statement, more powerful way. If I ever can to do this. But the thing is, as you can see, you can you can hear the way how I speak i i I am these days very district distracted and just distressed by the by the new Dubai the development of the the entire thing I wish I wish I just could do better with the pokers. I I don't know I, I I'm afraid they something happened to them a they would be hung or whatever while I'm sleeping and and I think about what's on their mind wearing these orange inmates uniform who are who those only who are finally be getting executed get to where? And solitary confinement. I don't know what I I think about what what they are thinking how they are feeling, also, my my mind is my thoughts constant constantly with their immediate families. I this is this is so much for me to handle. This is what I can say.
Host 1:26:31
Right, thanks for saying that. And I think that's really important because we have gone over such a broad range in this interview of talking about the profiles of the condemned the current state of the coup in the revolution, the response of large international bodies, like ASEAN and Western countries, looking at the implications of what would happen should this be carried out the possibilities of preventing this and I think that and that was all very necessary to spend that time really properly understanding this from as many angles as possible in the time that we have. But there is this human element that these are, these are lives of good people that are at stake. And these are lives, brilliant lives that have done so much to improve the world around them. And not only are these lives being impacted, but everyone that is connected to them, everyone that's connected to the case, they are also having this emotional toll of how they eat and how they sleep and how they think and their emotions and their mental processes and their livelihoods and everything else. But this is having this incredible, an awful human impact on those that are close, I think it's really important that we end with acknowledging the humanity of it. These aren't these are not we you we have to talk about the broad arcs of the story, we have to understand the context and the frames of what is happening. But that understanding should not preclude also being able to humanize and identify as a fellow been on this world, just the pain and the burden of carrying this for everyone involved, whether it's whether it's you and the work you're doing or the condemn themselves, or their families or anyone else that this is just a a terrible anxiety that I can't even begin to imagine, properly understand, that one also has to live under while simultaneously trying to, to pay attention to and give awareness to these greater narrative arcs to simply understand what's happening and to spread that awareness. But these are these are two things that we we have to be concerned with. So
Han Htoo 1:28:43
you're right. In thinking about these people, connecting with them, make the case personal to you. This is this is such a great opportunity that I can talk about these things. Not not also not not only in in a federal report. But these thoughts these feelings sharing these emotional distress. A I hope these really connect the poor souls to the listeners. I am very grateful that I'm invited today. Thank you very much
Host 1:30:00
I need to let us as many listeners know that in addition to running these podcast episodes, we also run a nonprofit that or Burma, which carries out humanitarian projects across Myanmar. While we regularly post about current needs and proposals from groups on the ground, we also handle emergency requests, often in matters that are quite literally life or death. When those urgent requests come in, we have no time to conduct targeted fundraisers, as these funds are often needed within hours. So please consider helping us maintain this emergency fund. We want to stress that literally any amount that you give allows us to respond more flexibly and effectively when disaster strikes. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form currency your transfer method, Your donation will go to support a wide range of humanitarian missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and much more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution for a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian aid work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org That's b e t t e r b urma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our accounts. You can also visit either the Insight Myanmar or better Burma websites for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration.