Transcript: Episode #339: Whose Byline Is It Anyway?
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 00:50
Hi there, and thanks for listening. If you're enjoying our podcast and have a recommendation about someone you think that we should have on to share their voice and journey with the world. By all means, let us know it could be an aid worker, monastic author, journalist, doctor, resistance leader, really, anyone with some tie or another to the ongoing situation in Myanmar. To offer up a name, go to our website, insight, myanmar.org, and let us know. But for now, just sit back and take a listen to today's podcast.
Aung 02:37
Hey, yeah, thank you, thank you. You find me so let me introduce myself. Is my name is so it is the short name, but I work with other media studies, things 2000 and sevens at that time, also revolution in Myanmar is, maybe you remember it is like we call it Saffron Revolution. I started my professional job at the time 27 so I work with many media organizations, like across the country, some small media organizations, and also others media and big organization. So now I'm working as, like a media trader, and also, also just kind of volunteering, working with women media profession, and also women, women journalists as well. So yeah, I work with nisma. And also now I'm professionally. I work with, like international media, supporting the organization. So at the same time, also I'm working as a volunteer for for the woman, right? And also like woman or the media profession as well. And also like I work with as a volunteer is Myanmar woman, genetic society. So it's we August, since 2016 as it at the time, is like the our country is the kind of the transaction. But I took the positions is also totally volunteer positions. 2019 is also covid. Covid 19 saturation in also the whole the whole world. So I work with as General Secretary with my women genetic society. But since 2023 last year, we studied our new organization. It's just called like Myanmar woman in media. We call like Moines is like a crony. So why we started Nima woman in media? So the first thing is, like, we would like to, you know, extend our, our, you know, network. So not only journalists, we intend to, but also others. You know, media professions in the media side. So. We are thinking like, you know, woman journalist, woman filmmaker, woman video editor, woman podcaster, you know, also the woman fire checker, also in the newsroom, and also the woman anchor and the presenter in the newsroom. So mostly, we are thinking that, like our now, what should be a standard, even in this like that, no other crisis, the situation, crisis time, as you know, like that, since 2021, up to the military coup in Myanmar, is our, all of our, you know, media profession and also the channel, is facing the crisis and then challenges. So we cannot stay longer at our country. So, so now, now, you know, mostly we move to like other countries. Some are in Thailand. Some are in Indians, and also like the others, others country as well. So some are in the country, that country, as for the others process. So, like we started, you know, a woman in media, because the post school saturation, we have many, many challenges, not only you know the capacity meetings challenger, but also our, you know the job, job security issue, and also sexual harassment, others, gender based discrimination, so also women, major profession like they face, also we face, like, kind of like, you know, different discriminations and also different challenges. So that's why we are thinking that, okay, we should start, you know, one platform, one group. This is for, for, you know, like, a week out for, for our women media profession. Is this also, might be the kind of, you know, capacity building for our women media profession. So our golden object is, is it just very simple, is this gender equality? Gender equality in the media center? So, as you know, is like, there are many gender you know, working for general organization that inform Myanmar, but like our Guru is like, only for women media profession. Mostly we are focused like women media profession. So we started Myanmar woman in media Since 2023 so as also my background, so I work with different media organizations. Includes and also now I'm working as a media trainers and also as a writers, sometimes I write their opinions are articles about gender equalities and gender issues for Myanmar audience on some media organization, and now we statics. Use organization. It is new organization, but we have commit, commit, commitment. You know, like to cut, like, the gender equality in the media setting. So is this one years, and also that's and then, like, that's my background, journalist, editor, media trainers, also as a writer's agenda, opinions.
Host 07:58
Okay, so thank you for that lovely introduction about yourself and your work and your background. And I'm really curious to want to go deeper into your investigation and looking at gender equality, looking at the problems that women face in the workplace, in Myanmar, particularly in journalism. And I'm especially interested in how things changed before and after the coup. Most of your work has been done really in the last couple years post coup. But before we get into that, I wonder if you can tell us about any studies or findings that you did during the transition period and what was happening with women in the workplace and particularly women in the newsroom during the transition period, what kind of opportunities did they have? What kind of challenges did they face? What was going on during this time?
Aung 08:46
Yeah, of course. So as you know, it's like, like, tenant equalities is that we are staying strikingly and safe, hiding over the wall, not only our country. So like, as you know, like our country? Our country is just kind of 10, 2010 to 2020 is this like? We call it transition period. So at that time, at that time, I think it's like we caught, you know, some improvements for our media industry, not only media industry, for the whole country business, you know, like civil societies and kind of these are, you know, it was happened, 2010 to 2020 is this transition period to our democracy. But like again, 2021, is that monetary coup again. So we have, you know, the knowledge, and then we have momentum during this 10 years, 1011, years for like, you know, our democracy, and also like our chains and moralities. So change means like including evidence economic change and also, like our moral teaching, and also gender inclusion, also change. So I. Would say it's like 2010 to 2020 is like gender equality is, you know, like slightly improved. So we are we are struggling. We are struggling, but gender equality is like, slightly improved. Like, for example, it's like 2020 election. So, like, we have, and then around 30% are the woman candidate, and also, like the winning the elections. And then around 30% woman candidate, so woman MP, so it may like slightly improve, but sadly, it's like these, these elections is why not? So sad food and then cook again. So military see the power, and also we are back to, for me, I'm thinking is back to 2000 2007 2005 something, because, like, back to the end of military. BG, military government, so, so, as far, you know, like I understand, is like the under the you know, under the Data shakes like, you know, right, right based issue, every right based identity side, you know, go down. So that's why, like our journalist, we cannot, you know, we cannot continue our profession in the inside the country. Is this the main challenges both men and women journalists, but I will share later, so how woman channel is more suffers and more challenges, rather than the main journalists, so and so. That's why also, not only journalists, also like activists and others like you know, politicians like mostly free from the countries, some sort of rest day. Some are in the details of some, some so our woman, journalist, friends, colleagues, they stay detained in the in in behind the bar. So this is, this is the main challenge that is, is like threatening to our life, trying to threaten to our life, that is totally challenges for us. So we cannot stay longer at our country center. You know, in the general center, we call like, collaborative area, but actually, like, I'm thinking that some, some area is, like, totally conflict, so, right? And some, some are, you know, moved to on others country, but you know, still we have even, like, we live in other other countries, like, for example, China, but we still have, you know, challenges. So because, like, is it not our country, we are not a host. So we are thinking for our, you know, like, even, like we came from, like airline, with flight, is this? We can say, is this like, you know, you know, officially arriving, but it stays struggling, stay challenging. For for our Myanmar citizen, so and as for women, women general, we can, you know, think about like, you know, three two categories after the analytical. The first one is, like the woman journalist team walking inside, so inside me, like, maybe, you know, they they didn't show up. They are their identity. They are profession. But, like, they still working with low profile, very low profile, very low key. But Sams are working in that Sam you know, their conflict area. So it mean, like conflict area, not orderly conflict zone, but like, you know, the resisting group and EA or Yao ATHLEAN groups, control area, Sams are working in this control in this zone. This is like the first categories and then second categories is like working in a second country. Second country, mean, like Thailand and also India as well, maybe some other country, but mostly Thailand and India. But like news, like, you know news, you you know the scenario is some our journalists, some are in Bangladesh. So this is also new, and some journalists, some they are in a third country. So, like, I really would like to focus like the two, two securition. One is inside journalists. One is, like, in a third country. In general, so inside, generally is, you know, like we mostly we say this like every day they face Emergency, you know. It can be happen, whatever you know. And also it can be, you know, arrested, whenever is, maybe they are sitting, even sometimes they are not working, continue as a media profession, but they can, they can be arrested because like that, you know the SEC and also military regimes, like they don't care about this. You know someone you know, send the message to them, Hey, this, this, he or she is journalist, and then, like, he or she come out with. Know, an ug and a with like other media organization so they can be arrested. So every day, you know, is challenges for them. But let's stay walking so some stay working in the in the conflict zone and conflict area, as you know, conflict zone is like, totally conflict or some are in the front line. So, like, probably, like, they have, you know, challenges, and also they have not very much equipment. And also, some journalists, they don't have proper salaries. That is, that is, and that maintains even they are walking in that, you know, very dangerous zone. But something is, they don't have proper salary. They don't have proper income at all. That is the main challenges. And then so even they still walking. But, you know, nobody cared about their health, nobody, nobody cared about their safety, some organization care about them, but like, not for everybody, right?
Host 16:07
So in contrast, you would say the male journalists that are also on the front lines, do you find that they have better support, better care, better salary in those situations?
Aung 16:16
I am not so sure. So some you know, like the man journalist and also photographer. I know some people also, they don't have, but women's like, firstly, like, you know, like, now I see that the photo is, it just more. It is not a house. Is the only the place is, while our woman tenderly stay in conflict area. So you know this also challenges. Sometimes you know the the conflicts happening, so definitely they have to flee as like a civilians, so they cannot do their profession and another, another thing is, like, for the second, second country. So like, mostly like, journalists are free from the country, from Myanmar, mostly live in like Mesa and Chiang Mai in China. So some journalists in Mesa, they don't have proper document, because, like, they came across, they just across the rivers from Myanmar to Thailand. So, like, it's totally we can say, is this illegal, illegal? But, like, we don't want to use this term, is this illegal, our our people are legal, not illegal. So that's why we use like that and document that we are legal, but we have no documents that's that's also the problem, and also healthcare problems. So in in like other countries, it's quite expensive, it's rather than like our country. So most of the journalists also, they don't have proper somebody, so they cannot pay these, like proper hair services, and for women, just kind of like the double bond. So I'm, I think that is this double bond, because, like in our, you know, other family status women, womans are, you know what it is called. It's like family, caretakers for the family, right? So definitely, women have to care the family. So if women, you know, cross the river, whatever, free from the country, also they think about their family. They think about their children. They think about their parents. So, like, we can see many women with children, with their parents. So is this like, this is I think like, not only never, because we are, firstly, we are thinking ourselves, to be honest, like, how can we survive? But women think about like, not only you know, how can I survive, but also thinking about for their children, thinking about for their parents. So like, if we said about children, so women, generally, mothers, I mean, like mother, think about their children. Education their children have. But, like, you know, this is struggling, and then challenge struggling and the crisis time, so it's very less care about others. You know, the social issue, social problem, that also the problems. And another thing is kind of are, you know, the job opportunity, so, after the analytical saturation, so the news from sun, news from the they, they are not, you know, continues, there they are newsroom, and then they are so, like they. Close the newsroom. And also, like they reset again in others country, like, for example, mostly in Thailand, I'm sure. So also the newsroom, you know, struggling a lot to reset it in others country, yeah. So, like, newsroom cannot, you know, create the job opportunity. So, for example, if they have one you know, journalist, their generation know how to write the report, that generally should know how to edit the video, that generally should know how to report, how to do you know, like the podcast reporting, how to do radio reporting. And also, sometimes they need, you know, to show their faith on screen. So like, just kind of multitasking. It is good, but sometimes it is like over one lot for the for the journalist. So both men and women journalists, so by woman channels, as I mentioned, saw earlier. So like, job opportunity is so less, and also they have double balance chair rents or something like that. So like the media organization, also they used to ask the question, so if your children is six, can you do properly your work? This is not only my code. This is called from like our recently research. So let me continue my research, so our research, so everybody I am, we start X are the research. We launched these research this year is called, like the crisis and the coup. So is this a crisis? And also under the we have challenges situation, so like our research topics is research topic is like, based on the three categories. One is like, gender based violence. Second, Geneva's discrimination, and that's sexual violence issue in the news or and also the workplace. The results especially focus on the two main areas, Chiang Mai and Mesa for exam. So we can see Azan, media profession. But you know, like in the respondents sometimes like they are confusing stuff. What is the probably definitions of gender based violence, GBB, DVD and session as well. So we got, like, some categories, but all are, you know, myths, just kind of, you know, using, you know, their identity. Sometimes, like media organizations, maybe media owners, like, they use women identity to apply like emergency or individual grant. But sometimes you know, the journalists, Women Journalists, they don't know so kind of these are happening. And also, like you know, thinking about the woman participation in that in the media service media, but you know this tea and then later under for the woman representation in the newsroom. And also, there's some organization, as I mentioned earlier, so that organization, or also they are struggling for reset their mind. So that's why, like, they cannot create that job opportunity. They are not thinking too much about social welfare. I understand it. But like we should think about women. We should think about women patterns, you know, like we should think about slighter, that woman's and also the equality issue. So I don't know, is it just kind of, I don't know what is, you know, the right solution, but, like, it's happening all the times. So some women analysts, you know, imagine this boats, they they have very large salary. But they stay strong because they cannot combat to the country if they come back. You know, obviously they can be arrested, so they cannot come back. So sometimes, like, that's also the impact. They tend not to speak up if they, you know, face the kind of, you know sexual harassment case and others. You know just combination case that they cannot, they cannot speak up because, like, if he or she speak up, so, like, if he or she, you know, became jobless, you know, we won't have him or her. That is also challenges for the Tempest.
Host 24:42
Thanks, so thank you for sharing about your work and the important studies that you have been doing so you have your group women in media has conducted the study of looking at some of the problems that Women Journalists have faced in third countries, particularly Thailand. After the coup took place, and reporting on it and the methods that you described, can you share where this report went and what is being done? What is the next steps now, with having taken this research and seeing these problems, do you have, do you see any signs that there is interest in looking at the results of your study and making proper changes in different newsrooms based on your report.
Aung 25:26
Yeah, we Yeah, together, we intend to be, you know, something changed in the newsroom. So, like, we follow some, you know, common, common cases, as also I mentioned on the sums earlier. I already mentioned is this, like the using identity, identities of Women Journalists. So like, we have the woman journalist, and applies Women Journalists identity for the grant. But actually sometimes, you know, like, it doesn't mean everyone, it doesn't mean every newsroom, but like, the sun newsroom and the channel is herself, she doesn't know it, you know, like, they use the identity. So second, second one is, like, we find out that some problems, is this very common problems, and like, we see, like, an equal opportunity, this is totally, you know, we consider, is this, the discrimination because and equal abortion to go to, for example, to go to the conference area, to go to frontline, you know, the male journalist, and also the editor, they are thinking is, women should not go frontline. Women should not go the crisis area, because they thought, is this production woman should not go. But later they, you know, they haven't asked about the woman concerns. They haven't, they didn't give at least any chance. But like, you know, finally, this is also opportunity for journalists, right? If, if they agree. Otherwise, they won't agree. It's not fine. But, like, women want to go conflict that area, but channel is, you know, the area, and senior deny to go to this area. So this call, like, we call it an equal opportunity.
Host 27:17
And so you're describing that on one hand, the legitimate concerns that women have, and especially their dual roles as caretaker and their families and also being able to be in the newsroom, sometimes these concerns are not so honored or protected, whereas the there's a kind of patriarchal attitude for women that then want to go to conflict zones. Then there's this double edged sword where they're not paying attention to one concern, but suddenly they're being patriarchal at the other saying, well, we don't know if it's really proper for women to go even those those female journalists that want to go to those front lines and want to do that reporting, they're prevented based on views that this is something more for a man to do. Is that correct?
Aung 28:01
Yes, yes. Just kind of like they think is just like, production.
Host 28:06
Right, right, but they're protecting against one thing, but not the other. That sounds like, yeah, right,
Aung 28:12
and yeah. Another thing is like, you know, unsafe interaction. Just kind of unsafe interaction. Mean, like, you know, the last day. Also, like we discussed at this point in the in our woman on a group discussion that is like, for example, in in our side of some, some kinds of, like, you know, informal networking, the happening in the evening, you know, like, go to park, go to the pstation. But sometimes, you know, it is man only that's fine. Sometimes even woman only that's totally fine. But sometimes it's like, the woman join, like, you know, when man, you know, are the informal networking. So some woman, not all, some woman journalists, yeah, you know, they feel unsafe. They don't like it. Sometimes, like, you know, I wanted touching, and also talking something just kind of, you know, asking sex or something like that, really. So, yeah, in our, you know, in our research, so, like, one or two respondents, they ask, like, so they are senior, senior, you know, senior roles in your management ask for sex, even for the LGBT to LGBT. So if they deny it, this is impact for their work, yeah, just kind of not publishing their story, you know, just reduce the salaries or kind of Steven, so woman, woman face is this, like, kind of like, you know, unsafe interaction, yeah. And it is not only came from the neutron, but also from that, from the sources. So, like, woman contact Susan, you know, these days the journalists can contact. As like, so it's safe applications, messenger application, like, for example, sickness. So, you know, that's so that they got the signal and then the so that sometimes, you know, signs, I want a message, kind of like, you know, sexual message at night, Hey, show your photos or something like that. So this unsafe is not only from the neutron, but also from the soldiers that also the woman's they're facing differently. Man.
Host 30:32
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So what I'm thinking here is that in this current time in Myanmar history, unprecedented changes? And it's not just a fight against the military and wanting to tear the to overcome the military and have things go back as normal. It's a full fledged revolution. This is the word we keep hearing. This is a revolution at every scale of Myanmar society. And so when you're talking about the way that women journalists have equal opportunities as their male counterparts, and to say nothing of the safety they should feel with their superiors, with their peers, with their sources, I wonder, to what degree are the studies that you're doing and the positive change that you would like to see as a result of those studies? To what degree do you see this work and this methodology fitting into this framework of this overall revolution that's taking shape, and the structural changes that you'd like to see in Myanmar society going forward.
Aung 31:30
Essentially, you know, maybe it's actually not the rightly, you know, for the revolution, but later we need, you know, more improvement in our media setup. That's what I thought. You know, because our revolutions so we have, like, the conflict zones and the conflicts areas. But like I said, like generally, a pass by the wine woman should not go there. If woman can do it, that it, she can do it, she, she, she can't go there. But, like, I, you know, just kind of production reasons, but not every newsroom. Some newsrooms like state hub, that woman's reporters and woman photographer in front lines is also linked with like representation. So another, another common things like woman faces like this is representation. So in show our research, it's like representations in the you know, for free reporting so that we started, is this like under representation of women, free reporting and leadership role in the media housing, this is very common things. Yeah, so like under representation to the free reporting and and a representation in the leadership role is stay happening after military coups, you know, the military regime, like, you know they, they, you know, practice to medias. So just kind of pressure. But like, meanwhile, the revolution group, the resisting groups, they are thinking like the equality, internet equality. But like for me, stay struggling for the management role level and a higher position level to get women that representation. So it stay, you know, under representation. So this is like another common things we say. And like for our research, also, we ask them, may representation, may participants, the answer, women are not fully qualified to get the leadership role. You know, this is just kind of like vice advisers. So they think women are not fully qualification, but at this same time, and then, you know, the woman I didn't get, you know, the proper job because of, oh, you have children, you you're pregnant. So kind of, kind of sleep inside, you know, still happening. So, like, the research says, No, not, not my What is this like kind of representation for a woman?
Host 34:28
So this is under representation in terms of, I assume, all jobs, all fields, in journalism, the numbers, the percentages, are lower than they should be. So I'm, I'm wondering about senior management. I'm I'm sure that once you get up to more senior positions and editors, those percentages become even more skewed and even even smaller when it comes to to women. What can you give us looking at the Myanmar media landscape, which, as we should emphasize again, is basically all in exile. These are extremely hard conditions. They're operating under, and the funding for Myanmar media is just going down across the board, so that makes it further strapped, just to give an understanding of the landscape and the context within this exile Myanmar media looking at senior management levels, how, how would you describe the challenges of representation, and how low I would guess that those numbers might be there?
Aung 35:25
Yeah, actually, we don't have, you know, proper numbers and proper statistics. So like to be honest, like we we have, we don't have conquering never. How many women journalists in Mesa, how many women than this chairman is for exam is, we don't have the concrete number. So sometimes is, you know, the in and out. So it is quite difficult, and might be our, you know, you know, the our capacity is very limited, capacity for us sure to get that kind of this number. And also, you know, some, some new camera. They started their job as a woman journalist after the coup. So these things, but like for them, seniors and management level, so we know like that the media organization. So Stay low. Stay and representation for the media. You know, leadership, leadership level for our results, like we are thinking, you know, to know that these are the difficulties and then challenges, what's happening after the monetary situation. So maybe everyone noticed, okay, we already know this situation this, and that that's fine, but we don't have concrete data, concrete information. That's why we started this crisis under the cool research. Because we have these, you know, evidence. This is evidence. This is evidence like, you know, everyone can use these evidence, you know, ever maybe, like someone want to cover the news, this is evidence they can use aspirin. That's why we started. Even like we know everything we know the desaturation, but we need evidence. That's when we started this evidence, besides so, so for the next step, if also news or know about this evidence, maybe they can change it.
Host 37:25
And are you seeing signs? Are you seeing any positive signs of that potential change?
Aung 37:29
Yeah, I don't want to say only our reports. And also as I have, you know as I have is also on the organization for the supporting and also emergency as well, also, as I had the contact the one research, this is also about the voice of women, and especially for exam. So like, you know, some people think about our two research is exactly saying no, not saying so, as I have reported, like, more generally, and also like the results, like the many sadness and kind of salaries and like the other things. So for our crisis under the coup, we mainly focus like sexual harassment and the discrimination issue. So quite, quite different, but like, kind of the small stuff also is on her doing, other women journalists doing, and our group women and media also, we are studying that these small stuff, so at least we are thinking like the media organization, regardless of bit small or medium sized, they show had general policy and non discrimination policy. And do they Yeah, so some are not.
Host 38:48
What percentage would you say have those policies and what percentage do not?
Aung 38:51
I am not so sure, but some are not having this policy so, but because of these small steps, even the small stuff. But like some organization, they are thinking like, kind of like, we should have gender policy. That is, that is good sign, and then that is positive signs. And also these people, not rightly, not only for the media organization we send through the donor organization, obviously, after the cool saturations like that in camps and supporting for media organizations, and then like the main is donor, you know, like the organization, so like this is just kind of, you know, the pressure, if like so donor organization, if they want to give the grant to the media organization, maybe they can ask, they can request their policy. How about general policy? How about sexual harassment policy? So one of our recommendation for these results, this is including right. Donor organization should as the kind of steam policy to lose from, but for awarding the grant that that should be, that should be, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So that's why like that we put like these, the recommendations. One of this is one of our recommendation. So this is kind of like, you know, other side pressures. And like, you know, woman group studying that this small stuff, and it's work, if we see, like, kind of, you know, other good sign, but not only from NWA, and I'm sure others group and others organization, you know, understanding these things also, Donut organization, also listening our voices. That's that's cool.
Host 40:45
That's great. Now there's a counter argument that we hear often during this revolution, when concerns are expressed about challenges, problems, inequities that are occurring on the side of the resistance, the revolution and democratic forces, there's a pushback that will take the form of we just need to be in solidarity. We need to not be quarreling amongst each other. We need to take down the military. Once the military, military is taken down, then we can have we can discuss and work out with all of our time and space and safety. We can work out the issues at this time, but the more that we quarrel and debate these and we're not in solidarity right now, the that's not the priority. The priority is the revolution, and the revolution is to take down the military. And once we take down the military, then we will tackle all these other issues. And I'm sure that in the course of your research, you've heard some version of that argument saying, yes, yes, we hear you. We know that things aren't good, but now is not the time we're going to get to this later. Have you heard some variants of that response in your work? And how do you usually respond to that?
Aung 41:51
Yeah, that's a good question. This is, you know, all we're talking about that. This is, like, all frames, all scenarios, but stay useful. We have to we have to fight these data shakes other Right, right. Case are, you know, just behind, just behind we can discuss later. So, oh, like in Bangladesh, oh woman, just just for a moment, we have to fight. And, you know, that's not true, that's not totally true. So we have to fight. We have to stay, you know, speak out. We had to stay talking about that, these right issue. Why? Why We Fight the data? Because we we lost our right yeah, that's it, yeah, you know. So, like, this is, like I mentioned, this is offering. This is, you know, like that, the old scenarios, but still walking. But not everyone. Some you know, like the resisting groups, they are young, they they are just kind you know. They know the right so they are thinking the right base issue. But I'm, I can't see for every group you know. So that's why we had kind of, you know, the discrimination case in the some the M groups, area and gender based discrimination cases. So we also had, yeah, so like, the that's why, like, we are doing this, and that that's why we are staying, you know, pushing, pushing and pressure for that. So not only fighting on the data, so we shall fight every data, and also we should think about the right events like we are thinking, we we postpone our right? Is this too late when we come? But, you know, doing the bit on the digital actually, these are not the separate things right, are right. So, so right for humans, and also human being. So if we are, you know, ongoing right is also, you know, at the same time, we can do the right issue. This is not separate time. This is not extra time. So we can do these right issue things. So that's why we fight. We stay the speaker. We stay, you know, talking about this right issue. So, no, it is not a good reason. So we cannot, is this not assertive? This is not assertive. That's why. Okay, definitely, we have to do kind of sleep in sometimes. So firstly, you know some man's like they are talking, oh, revolution is our priority. We know revolution is our priority. Right. Like to take down the data, this is our priority. That's right. But at the same time, we value our rights. We should value our right. We should think about our rights is so so I say like right, human rights, is. Also woman right, the same, is it not? You know, separate things, woman right is also a part of human rights.
Host 45:05
It sounds like you're saying that your job now, the job of Myanmar people, is not just to battle the dictator, but to also battle the dictatorial thinking that might be in all of us to some degree, and to change that as well.
Aung 45:19
Yeah, I don't want to say everyone, some groups, and you need, you know, like that, if you lead us. So even like male leaders, even in like Anglo male leader, they respect the rights, they respect the human rights. That's a good sign, yeah, because, like, we have, you know, so called democracy. 10 years we got it so that got signed. That's good, but not everyone. But, like, I would say, Stay happening, kind of stays, you know, like the patriarch thinking, patriarchy ideology, so stay happening. So I don't know very today in the free but, you know, sometimes we know that the situation. So I might say, Stay happen in this, but you patrio Patriarchy ideology.
Host 46:08
So the next question, I don't want to ask you to name any names, but of those organizations that you see in the media that are generally doing a better job than others, are there any that you see passing with really perfect or near perfect marks, or even the ones that are doing a bit better on your skill. Are there still questions and concerns among those as well?
Aung 46:34
Yeah, I, as mine, this is my passionate and also, like, based on our research, so we saw, like, some improvements. And some are, you know, doing good things for these equalities. And also some are thinking like this equality. The issue like, is this? Is this? Why they change? Is this also, you know, like, different, different pressures, different PR pressures we project, yeah, like, for example, like we started the deep research, and ASAN has started conduct one research. This is also kind of pressures, yeah, for me, like, when we start our group and wins, we are doing, kind of like, you know, the advocacy way, and also, like, kind of, like advocacy to to the media organizations actually like to be honest, we are not, not activists. We are journalists. So also, we are thinking about, like, you know, advocacy, and, you know, like we see, like, soft power, we don't, we don't have hard power. We have no power. Okay, that you should go to the gym. We have no power. We have no mechanism at all. So that's why, like, we really rely on our soft power. This chain habani Also after the coops and ended the desaturations after 2021 is cooked, and I did like, 2022 2324 is start changing for the these things. Because this is our small, because of our smallest, I'm sure. So like, not only from our side, but also like, like, our recommendations. Like we our recommendation is donut organization should add the kind of state policy. And that's kind of another precious so, like, you know, this is the main source of for their income, for the media organization income, so like that. So media organization, you know, definitely have to show their gender equality. That's clever, right? So they want to show that the how they, you know, how they care about gender equality, definitely they want to show and definitely they have to shoot it. So that's why they are trying to cut woman representation in the media set in their newsroom. And, for example, just this is like one of my friends, like she she was invited or from newsroom. Hey, please help our newsroom. Because, like all of our news from our men, when are sitting in the newsroom, that's why we need woman. So my friend asked, why you need woman? So sometimes do not ask you, have? You have? You know, the woman in the newsroom, actually, it's difficult is, like, you know, is this positive or negative? But like, you know, kind of the pressure we need otherwise is, like, the woman issue is like, that, you know, like, you know, for kind of issue, yeah, it's not, not very important, kind of the pressure, but like, one thing is, like, like, you know, is it important? It should be sustained and continuously, not only one year, not only six months, it should be continuous. And also we should we every times like we think about always. We think about like this, equality. Yeah, that. That is the main thing I dance.
Host 49:57
Right. In your report, you reference how there was one case where a senior editor at one media organization had a history of inappropriate behavior, and I believe the report noted that he was reprimanded, but then came right back, and so because he was considered too valuable for that organization. And so this also hits into there could be the surface level or temporary changes that something, something might occur, that you might see some evidence of positive change in a moment or in a day, but then things just go back to normal, I assume.
Aung 50:31
Yeah, that's, that's really good question, and that's for your question. So this is just kind of short term, right? Yeah, that's you mentioned, right? This is totally right, short terms and kind of steady things. So that's why, at the same time, we are thinking about, not only kind of speeding, we are thinking about like the capacity buildings of women's definitely we need kind of these and what bonds otherwise, like men think about this or woman's are not qualified. But got, but go back to your your caution. So this is just kind of, you know, sometimes, like, it's not a good, good, good, what? And then it's like, just kind of like, you know, for sure, to someone, maybe donor, yeah, maybe, like others, organization, right? This is like, I'm sure this is short term, but like, we should, you know, do sometimes, or you know what bond to be the long term woman should have, like, you know, genuine, like, quality, good qualities that we need we still need. That's why we are thinking about, like, capacity issue. And also, one thing I always talk about is because, like, I'm, you know, the teachings gender, and also I'm, you know, on a sharing, like my my age students for like, kind of gender articles. The one thing is, like that, you know, like the people who, regardless of journalists or ID is the people, if they don't understand very well about the concept of Jenna, they are doing kind of, you know, kind of the shorthand things, not not Thinking about the long dance and very bad things. So just kind of temporary solution for them, to cut, to get funny, to get the opportunity. That's it, right. But, but like at the same times we are thinking, you know, to start with that, kind of like the general workshop and sexual harassment workshop to man at the same time, especially for the like senior level we are thinking of that because if they don't understand, like for me, I use the word is digest, that digestive If, like some concept, if you are not digestive, if you are not, you know, on the trust these, this issue, like, so everything you are, your activity is just kind of, you know, for the short term, for for some interest, that's it, right? So definitely need to know and need to digest these issues, these topics, so that that also got and also very understandable, and that should think about all the times, not thinking separately. So sometimes, like, you know, media organizations or other people think about China. Oh, this is separate issue. This is not like this. Actually, you trust gender equality. Actually you trust you know, you digested these kind of issues. They digested these kind of issues, not a separate thinking for that. This is like combining all thinkings and also thinking about gender needs, gender needs and also like a woman issue at the same time. So for me, personally, I trust, is like a shorthand. It's a positive sign that's good, but still thinking about like many perspectives and many activities, like, for example, capacity building for women. Women got these were born. You know, women are qualified, they can get good jobs. So that is, that's my trust. And also, at the same time, we have to do the advocacy, hey, she'll have, you know, general policy. You shall have session harassment policy. This is, might be second thing. And so for me, like also thinking about, like the general concepts to everyone in the newsroom, not only general concern, not only for a woman, general concept, but also for man in the newsroom, especially newsroom editorial level and a senior level that they show her. Channel concept, general concept, not only, you know, just one day blessing, no, it's not. Gender concept. It's just kind of, you know, the is this like, long terms, and also thinking about all the times for gender needs and differences, gender based kind of discriminations or something like that. So it should be long terms. So is this like, like, like, obviously, is it changed, right? We need to change something, but is this difficult to change someone? That's why we stay fighting, fighting and fighting.
Host 55:30
Sure, it's interesting, though, because I'm thinking as you're describing the nature of the Myanmar media being exiled in third countries because they're not safe in their own country. Of course, this is terrible for all the obvious reasons, and the personal safety and getting the news out, the instability, the visa issues and on, an arrest on and on and on that goes through. But you know, as we see with history, so many terrible moments in history can have unintended positive consequences that also accompany those. And I'm just thinking as you're talking that it is interesting that you were describing a scenario where these media organizations now, because of these terrible things that have happened and continue to happen, and the funding levels that are so down, they are almost entirely dependent on donor organizations to keep them alive, and it's really a struggle and a tragic struggle, that the Myanmar media Myanmar media space is in such across the board, is really in such difficult conditions. Every organization is struggling in their own way right now, big, small, regional, etc, and because they're not able to rely on revenue as they were before the coup, they the relationships with these donor organizations become all the more important and but what makes this so interesting for your work is that does give you a special opportunity of leverage that you wouldn't have ordinarily if you were if, if they're funding, if they had multiple funding streams coming from different directions, you could not go above their head and talk to the donor organizations that and express your concerns and your priorities with them, and then have those clauses in the funds that they're looking to apply at a later date. And as you said, there is also the concern. You don't want it to just be structural in terms of just a something they have to fulfill for a grant in order to get the money, and then they can go do what they want to do. You want it to have long, lasting and long term and systematic changes. That's very important. However, that being the case, it does. It is interesting that this current opportunity does give you the leverage and the possibility of talking to these donor organizations with perhaps more influence than you would ordinarily.
Aung 57:48
Yeah, also, like, I noticed the kind of kind of details, right? So, like, you mentioned my donor organization, more influence to the neutral. And then, like, Is this also not a good sign, right? So sure, yeah, right. This one should be independent, yeah, yeah, yeah, but that's why I like that one. Maybe, if i i remember correctly from donor organization when we launched the our research. So one of our recommendation is donor organizations, you know, has a helping mechanism for sexual harassment. And another one is like, should kind of kind of the pressures for that. These are policy, general policy and sexual harassment policy. So if I remember correctly, that one of one attendees from the donor organization. And then he said, he said, donor organization, don't want to do kind of the, you know, control. This is not for donor organization. Yeah, so, like, also, also, that's why, like, I noticed that kind of these things also, I'm concerned about this. You know, donor, you know what it is, called donor supervision. So kind of, you know, control, more control, physics also important issue, yeah, so it should not be, yeah, to be honest or not, that's right, yeah, that's why, like, the Our recommendation is not only this one, but also we are thinking, like, let's say, for example, sexual harassment. So, so for me, I always talk about the sexual harassment is no issue at all. So no reason at all. Oh, this is revolution. No, no excuse. So that's why, like, we need kind of sexual harassment mechanism. At the moment, we don't have the sexual harassment so that's why, like, if we think about, we talk about the sexual harassment mechanism. Who Be That this mechanism internally? Sometimes, you know, like, the woman survived. Have a, oh, we don't trust internet, like anything, so maybe, like, in event, something like that. So that's why we are thinking kind of the things like that. In our country situation, it's very difficult to say something about, like, you didn't like these other issues and other issues because, like, the care saturation, the crisis saturation. So like other other thing is like we are thinking like the ibcm, independent Press Council, Myanmar, so if like IBC, and can do you know some these kind of mechanisms, or these kind of things, like properly test also work for us, for media industry, but it's hard to say, I'm sure how to say also, I don't want, like, you know, donor influenza, more, I don't want to also, I don't like and also, like, some on the informal discussions, mostly I talk about this, no, like not every every time should not go to the donor. We should like our mechanism. We shall have our you know, how can I say this is just kind of like system we shall have? Not, every time should not go to the other donor organization and also some donor, donor organization, they don't have these authority. They don't have no power for that if, like, you know, like, for example, liver, diva, exploitation, I know that they have authority, but like, they may have, you know, the policy, and also, like, they can, they can find it out their policy, but I don't know how, but they have the purse strings, yeah, just kind of push, push. And also pressure, yeah. And also, like, that's why I told you. Like, don't before giving the grants donut organization can, as do have, you know, like, how many womans you can use on Yeah? And also, like, maybe donor organization has a, you know, the policy, so the news on, they don't have the general policy, no grant, yeah, yeah, maybe this is the kind of the policy. But, yeah, is it a part, a part of pressure, a part of you know, that the might be like the push right? But it doesn't mean like that donor intervention all the time in the newsroom. No, not at all. Neurons should be independent, especially for like for me, like for they are productions news, production news from definitely have to be independent. But kind of the things like gender, sexual harassment, so not only donor, but also others, you know, that can post and then can can do, like, peer pressure, also PR pressure. It does work, yeah, you know, posting on social media, you know, like this day is like on social media, posting on social media something like, just kind of like, you know, replenishing for them, for their accountability, yeah? Just kind of, not only one way, not only donor, not only our organization, not only peer pressure, but like that we should do. You know different way, different you know other different themes, different, adequate, but it's a for gender equality that would be great. Yeah?
Host 1:03:20
No. Perhaps another unintended benefit of this terrible situation of Myanmar, journalists and everyone else being in exile is in these third countries. They're outside of their own immediate community. There are people they can link up with and connect in these other third countries. And we've seen that in Thailand to a very large degree, with the artists, and there have been, there's been some beautiful synergy with Burmese and Thai artists that have come together to do exhibitions. For example, a new Burma has done a lot to bring together these different Gen Z artists who are meeting each other and seeing each other's art and seeing the way that that across different Southeast Asian countries, their protest. They're using their activism or art or whatever to want to, to assert their values and their resistance to traditional authorities, even as they take different shapes. And so I'm and of course, this taps into the whole milk tea Alliance and the loose and informal connection that is the milk tea. But when it comes to journalists and when it comes to female journalists and gender equality, has there been any synergy or conversation or collaboration with Thai journalists that might be facing something similar in this country?
Aung 1:04:31
Yeah, I would say, No, not, not very much. Sometimes we have a chance to talk with like other some women journalists, Thai women journalists, but you know, not you know the other big discussion. So, yeah, definitely, we are also thinking like that to collaborate with like that time organizations, yeah. And also like we are thinking at least we are thinking for us. Yeah, yeah. We are thinking for. You know also, this is also one of our our strategy and one of our objectives. Not only so, for example, time is like, to be honest, we we need time Alliance because so, like, if we face women generally, face like the sexual response cases, we have no mechanism at all. Right now, if we had time Alliance, time alliance can help and can support us. How should we go? Or something like that, solidarity, solid, injury we need. So that's why, like, also our next step, maybe we need, we need time, but they're also thinking about what that time tangent is. And also, at least, we should. We should, I mean, like, not only our organization, our Myanmar media side, should think about at least Thai and ASEAN. We have no Alliance right now. That would be great to start at the IBC and studying the kind of the Alliance. But like every time we have limitation.
Host 1:05:57
Right now, we've been talking a lot about female journalists. But what about LGBT? Can you tell us a bit about the challenges and the experience of LGBT journalists that are in newsrooms or reporting in conflict areas?
Aung 1:06:13
Yeah, it's also the difficult because, like, we also ask our, you know, like the LGBT or the participant for our research. So, like, I would like to repeat you the quote from our transgender woman. She is ki participant. So she says, like, man, think it is really easy to cut LGBT, especially for sexual, sexual activities. So, like, maybe, like, you know, the senior, like, where they think about, oh, yeah, LGBT very easy, rather than women. So that's why, and they also, they have, you know, more challenges. And also different challenges. I don't mean much. It's different, yeah, no, rather than other woman Woman issue. But so for our our group and who I am, also we are thinking LGBT and participation. Yeah, that's why we invite the LGBT channel is. And also be very careful about to reflect their advisors that that also thinking about for us. So like our our antibody ion structure, we think about LGBT participation, not only LGBT men and LGBT participation at least 25 to 30% but is it LGBT like? It's also like, like, we continue discussion. But like, for example, transgender woman, they can be our member. Transgender woman, they can be our members. We are not an eye at all. We but man cannot our member, but we will invite man for some discussion and some activities. And also, like I mentioned earlier, we are thinking only senior male child is gender training, channel, workshop also, and then that's also useful for them. So kind of, kind of the activity our underlying thinking, like, for example, in our BOD, bone and also advisory member, we have at least one, one man in the book, Mama, because also, like we are thinking, also we should respect their probit. And also, we are thinking, tenant equality, not not, you know, like, not power over, you know, equality issues. So we should respect tonight that these are the men's prosperity.
Host 1:08:54
Is that That's, that's very interesting to hear. And I wonder, Is that coming as a response to other initiatives where you've seen you describe it as gender equality, not power over and is do you? Do? You have a concern that other kinds of initiatives or groups that you've seen are perhaps not really aiming for gender equality among all genders and identifications and sexual orientations, but that it's, it's, it's more of a drive to want to have power over than equality. Is that a concern that you've seen?
Aung 1:09:31
Actually not a concern if I'm now talking about like equality, but I always talk about equity, if we are talking equality, also, we should think about equity issue. So because, like, in our country, the situation, like, Is this, like, totally patriarchy, you know, society's country, so that's why, like, why we are sometimes, like, I got the question from the man participant. In the in the train, in the workshop, why movements are more taken beneficiary rather than a man? No, it's like you already got that these you know that the benefit actually, is it not beneficiary for that? Is it just kind of normal for them? But woman not saying this is totally different. That's why we are thinking equity for women. That's why we we are trying like, you know, capacity building for women. This and that is training for women, because, like, women didn't cut in the past. That's why we are thinking like capacity building. And also for the kind of, you know, the speaker is women mostly like our patriarchy, society, women's are mostly silent. So that's why, like, we need, you know, the kind of empowerment program for women that is main things, but sometimes, but some organizations, and then some people, they are thinking, it's not too much, is it not A, not an issue. But like, sometimes we see, like, gender inequality and like power over so actually, for me, like, like, you know, personally, I know my power over at all. So that's why, that's why, like our when we think about our organization stretcher, we should not do power over at all. That's why, like we are thinking, Okay, we should think about man pass budget. That's why we are we in bidex Man as a, you know, bod and others like advisory board member. But is this not open for membership? Man should not be the membership for our groups. But sometimes we are thinking, you know, kind of these, maybe like, for example, being in training my voice and investigated. So both men and women are interesting. We are sure, but, like our group, definitely focus women. But maybe we, we. We can invite like, you know, 10% 20% sure, or something like that, that our, our idea. But let's see it does what or not, but hopefully we we also show like our model, it does what and also response like others, gender, not only man, including like LGBT in this 20% Yeah. So definitely, we should think about like this LGBT, other community as well. And also we want, we want to show like, like, our commitment for connect quality, right?
Host 1:12:36
Another subject of LGBT you just referenced to, what degree do you have a sense that it's safe for one to be openly gay or lesbian in Myanmar newsroom today?
Aung 1:12:49
It's difficult. It's still difficult. Especially I think gay is difficult as for our you know, other patriarchies so men want you know, even, even, even they, they are gay, and then they can, they can be, you know, like they can openly outside, but they don't. They don't want to open in the workplace, not what I don't, because I know one or two.
Host 1:13:19
Right? Can you go into a bit of detail about what challenges they face and why they they perhaps don't come out in the workplace, and what, what problems would come if they were known as gay?
Aung 1:13:31
Yeah, I think, like, this is my personal opinion. I think is it just kind of, sometimes discrimination, sometimes just kind of, you know, oh, this is just kitty to, you know, quite family man, actually, actually, you know, they, they don't, they don't want to open ESCA, but, like, they are quite feminine, right, quite soft. So sometimes it's like, our, you know, patriarchy. Thing about like masculine is, you know, it's strong for man. So if like someone even man, but like they are non masculine, just kind of feminine, like, you know, they want, they want, kind of discrimination. Sometimes, sometimes it's not targetedly And not in intentionally, but unintentionally. You know, like, might be the key. Like, the feeling is, you know, maybe insecurity, insecurity, our Guru ma woman in media. So definitely, we continue for our commitments. And also we are thinking about gender equality and also capacity building for Women Journalists. And also like our aim is like our goal is like many more other women journalists in the senior living in decision making. And also, also. So like we are working for the freedom of expression issue. So kind of students are, you know, combining, we are containing. We continue for that. Thank you. Thank you for your time, your interviews.
Host 1:15:25
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