Transcript: Episode #333: Against The Wind
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episodear.org/complete-shows/2025/4/8/episode-333-against-the-wind?rq=333. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 00:10
Music. Hello there. Many of you have been tuning into our conversations for some time, and now we'd like the chance to get to Tun into you. We invite you to record a voice message letting us know what's on your mind and send it to us at info, at insight, myanmar.org, we will keep all communication confidential unless, of course, you give us your permission to share it, which we will happily do on a future podcast episode. But for now, let's listen to the discussion that follows.
Jeshua 01:47
I first arrived in Myanmar in 2012 or 2013 that was a school trip with my Polytechnic back in Singapore. So I was a born and raised Singaporean. Have no family or background as a Burmese, like a lot of people believe, I have some kind of family here. And during that trip, you know, we were just tourists coming here for photography and visiting, you know, began Mendeley Yangon. So it was also the time when, you know, SIM cards cost a lot of money, and internet penetration was in the single digits. And yeah, I sort of came back year after year and saw the rapid progress and digitization of the economy here before starting a company in 2018.
Host 02:32
Right? And so when you first arrived in Myanmar, obviously something about it must have touched you to want to come back and start a company and continue on to this day. What was it about the country that grabbed hold of you?
Jeshua 02:45
I don't think it was like one trip that made all the difference. You know? It was the incremental thing, as with a lot of things that I've experienced in my own life so far, the journey of me knowing about Myanmar visiting for the first time to eventually thinking I should do something there, and then starting something actually was a seven year journey. So from the initial onset of visiting, obviously, my first impressions were that this place is a bit like a time capsule, because both airlines and Singapore are former British colonies, and there were a lot of similarities in terms of, you know, the road names, the even the currencies that you could use or exchange, the way that the education system, the law and accounting standards, all very similar, right, because of the British heritage. So that was interesting for me. And I had been to a couple of other Southeast Asian countries, but none of them, pretty much stuck up like Myanmar, so at least it interested me to go back again and to check out how things were going. Came back the following year with a church group to do a volunteering at a orphanage. And then after that, a solo trip. That was my first solo trip, actually, in 2016 so just traveling to three or four different states and regions within a period of six days, that was quite eye opening, because I experienced the kindness of people and the fact that, you know, I didn't know the language, I wasn't using a smartphone back then, and I somehow, you know, did not face any troubles that were too large and, yeah, eventually meeting people from Myanmar in Singapore. You know, I met a total of seven people with some such kind of connections, whether it's like my former lecturer or my classmates or even my office neighbors. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Singapore, but there is this huge office building called Peninsula Plaza slash shopping mall, and that happened to be where I rented a office space slash shop front for about six years to rent out camera equipment. I did not choose that place because it was like Myanmar Plaza, or the place where a lot of Burmese people hung out, but because it was very central, and you know, it was. Goes to a lot of other camera shops. So you could say it was some kind of serendipity, or, you know, God's calling, that I ended up, you know, working with a lot of neighbors who were Burmese, or second generation Burmese living in Singapore. And I think it was the combination of a lot of these incidents, from the initial getting to know the country, to meeting people from Myanmar in Singapore to my subsequent trips that really pushed me in the direction of, you know, doing something to help nudge the country in a better direction. You know, my thesis was back then that, you know, with a lot of change and digital disruption coming in, technology is not it's amoral, right? It's a tool. So with all these new advances in technology and internet and phone lines coming in, things can only go one of two directions, either up or down. And I very much wanted to be part of the positive direction.
Host 05:59
That's very interesting. And I think as we learn more about your Myanmar journey, also learn more about your personal journey, which has been quite unique in terms of some of the things that you've you've taken on. And I was struck by something that you wrote where you explained that you're, you're not the typical kind of Singaporean, and you went into describing what the typical Singaporean is, and how you're not that. And so I wonder if you can, before we get to the Myanmar part of it, if you can break down for our listeners, what do you mean by what the typical Singaporean is, and how do you diverge from that?
Jeshua 06:34
Well, I'm not going to generalize all Singaporeans, but many Singaporeans, you know, they typically have a more academic focus, right? They want to do well in school, get a good job, you know, settle down, buy a house, and those are all things which are fair and good, right? I'm not saying that it's bad by any way or means, but for me, I have taken a different path, choosing to skip most of the national examinations through direct admissions exercises, which means that even before you do the matriculation exam equivalence, or, you know the O levels, n levels, a levels, GCE, you would apply to a school and they will accept you on the basis or something else. It could be sports, it could be grades, it could be a student talent that you might, they might feel that you have. So that means that I didn't have to take any of these national exams too seriously. So I had a straight path to the next, you know, call it education route, and all the way until I was 17, I was still, you know, in the mindset that I would try to get to a good university, get a good job, and then maybe settle down and start a family and something like that in Singapore, but something changed when I decided to drop out of the first or second most elite junior college based in Singapore and pursue a education in filmmaking. So that was quite, you know, out of left field for most people. And you know, the fact that I could even enroll was quite a miracle, because I had not taken the national examinations which would require the which were required for entry. So, and there were only 55 places in this course, of which I think around 50 would have been reserved for people through the normal route. So I was basically competing for five places in the whole country for a sport in this program. And that sort of huge deviation was the beginning of many deviations which maybe led to the current status of my life being quite far from that of a standard Singaporean.
Host 08:46
Right? So that's, that's, that's a good background into your personality and your background and the journey that you would go on. And that's a divergent journey, we can say that led you into many trips, into Myanmar, and then ultimately deciding that you wanted to do more than just travel there, and you also want to do more than just live there. It sounds like, from what you described, it wasn't just a personal experience of wanting to be in a country that interested you. You you actually wanted to be a positive force for change, knowing the the transition, how things were opening up, and knowing that this, this new technology that came that it could be a force for for good or for bad, either way. So expand on that.
Jeshua 09:27
Yeah. So, I mean, when people look at my life so far, I think one of the reasons why we connected was because of the 500 kilometers walk that I ended up doing in March from Bangkok to masa. And, you know, some other people know me as the guy who traveled 55 countries during the pandemic. All of these things obviously sound pretty ludicrous to the average Joe and even to myself, I would say, looking back, I think I would never have imagined myself doing any of these pretty adventurous pursuits, because the. Growing up, you know, I was a typical Singaporean student who was not very active, actually, so the schools would exempt me from the physical education and even the national service that I went through. I was assigned as a photographer, so pretty much no physical activities. I sort of grew up thinking that, you know, I would probably work in an office job. And I think the deviations that happened along the way was not overnight. It wasn't like a spark of imagination or, you know, something that happened very dramatic, and I decided to go a different path. I like to describe it as small steps in a different direction that sort of accumulated to this large gap that has happened over the many years. So after dropping out of school to study film, I started working as well. So I was actually working from my teenage years all the way up to the time I entered into the national service, and even before that, I started a company at the age of 20 to solve a problem that was quite personal to me, because I had started working as a freelance, you know, photographer, videographer, editor, and gained a lot of this equipment, and I wouldn't be able to use them when I entered national service, right? Because I was, like, going to be full time in the camp. So I thought, you know, it makes sense if I would rent that out to people when I was not using it so that it doesn't collect dust. So that first business started 10 years ago, and shortly after that, I also pivoted my video production company to work from from working with like larger companies to startups, which saw me enter into the world of technology, startups and disruptive innovation. And because of these two companies, right? That's where the Myanmar part comes in. Again, I needed to hire a bunch of people. So again, it was solving a personal problem like the second company I started, because big companies, they don't really want to innovate that much, as much as they say they are doing something new every year, it's more like taking what they did last year and trying to do a few tweaks. So I was not getting the most intellectual stimulation from working with those guys. And decided to look at startups, because what they were doing was really, you know, new stuff, and the founders were always very passionate and motivated by what they were doing. And like to, like, starting the company in Myanmar, I worked with a couple of freelancers around the world through platforms like Fiverr and Upwork. And, you know, I realized that these guys are not going to stick around because they are freelancers. They go for whoever pays them the most, or they might have personal pursuits or reasons for being a freelancer at that point. So I realized that I needed to build a team that will be able to stick with me for the long run, so that I don't have to keep explaining myself, right again, solving my own problem, not not anything altruistic yet. And that's when I opened the small office, you know, hired a bunch of people, and it was like an experiment for me, but one that went pretty well. You know, these people stuck around. They did not leave after six to nine months I had previously experienced with the freelancers or even the local hires in Singapore, and then other companies started asking me, Hey, since you are in Myanmar, you have a small office, why not we put a few people in your office and help me take care of them, because I also want to have a small team that helps me on an ongoing basis without the need to keep retraining and re explaining things. So that's how you know, from a media guy you know, to a startup guy to now like a HR guy, you know, doing this HR as a service for companies that were starting from my network and then eventually expanding to people who I didn't know. Within six or seven months, I think the number of staff within the office which were not working for me outnumbered the staff that were working for me, and we needed to hire new staff to take care of those staff as well. So that's when, you know, we realized that this should be a separate company, totally right. And then cross work started, and we also had to start explaining to people what's going on in Myanmar, because most people, when they heard Myanmar, as you probably know, it's mostly negative the headlines about Rohingya, about Aung San Suu Kyi in jail. Now you know about the earthquake. It's negative headline after negative headline. And you know, as much as we all believe that there are good people in, you know, Russia or North Korea who can do video editing or graphic design or web development, most countries or most companies will not touch these places with a BA just because of the reputation. And I think Myanmar was like falling into that bucket of rogue states. So, yeah, it became very important for us to again, solve our own problem, that Myanmar has a huge PR issue, as much as all of these challenges that the country was facing were true, they were probably not complete in terms of the narrative. So that's when, you know, I started going around making videos, because that's what I know how to do. Made about 125 videos about all the states and reach. And all the borders, with international countries, the people, places, culture, lifestyle, and I got a much deeper understanding, you know, talking, from talking to everyone from farmers to CEOs, on how, you know, the country was really right. Because for most of Myanmar, they are rural and agrarian. More than 70% of people are still in agriculture. And those guys, they continue farming regardless of, you know, the politics, regardless of the economy. They put 10 to the plow, they sow the seeds, they harvest the crops. So that was like a different side of Myanmar that I got to learn about. And, you know, naturally, I'm a big believer in not holding knowledge and information, but sharing it. So that's how I started on the journey of telling stories about Myanmar, which was a great preparation for my COVID adventures, because shortly after getting stuck in Myanmar for about four months during the pandemic and getting quarantined for a month, I found myself in a Spider Man nowhere home situation because there were a lot of harsh quarantine and no social distancing measures back in Singapore, and I had to travel. No, I'm more like I got to travel to more than 50 countries during the pandemic, and nothing could have prepared me better than the experiences in Myanmar, because it's so dynamic, you know, it's always you have the extremes of like people helping you to there being no infrastructure so that, that all you know, really was very good training ground for being in five different continents, in 50 countries, when the global pandemic hit. Yeah, and then, I guess after I got back from that global pandemic travels, I went into, I mean, I had the opportunity to come back to Myanmar when the visa started being available again. And, yeah, I realized that, you know, the team here had done such a good job. Because when I left, there were about 13 people in the company. We had a huge hit from COVID. I think we're about 25 and then we shrunk down to 13. And when I came back, there were more than 70 people. Right now it's more than 120 people. So there were a lot of new people to meet and get to know. The team was like, refreshed, because we had a bunch of new people join the internal team as well. And yeah, I guess Myanmar started like getting to terms with with the new status quo, of things that were happening and people still needed to put food on the table, send kids to school, and like the vast majority of people still remain in the country, even though millions have left. So our job as a company, you know, is really about how we can provide these people with good job opportunities such that they don't have to leave or choose between career and home.
Host 17:47
So I think there's a couple of tasks that you've done lately that have really marked your your involvement in an even more unique way. One was this incredible walk you took on foot from Bangkok to may Tao Clinic in May sought. And then I believe that it was one hour after you landed in May sought that the earthquake hit. And so then your team since then has been involved in earthquake relief. So these are both two monumental activities and involvement. So tell us about both of these.
Jeshua 18:17
Yeah, I think prior to that last year was actually the the first leg of that journey, right? Because there was a increased fighting in the border of Myanmar and Thailand, especially in myawadi Around March or April in 2024 so the news reports like about 100,000 people were fleeing the border and seeking refuge in Thailand. And I had come to know about the meta clinic Since 2020 during the pandemic, which was the first time I actually did a bit of a small fundraiser for them. At that time, they were already having huge budget constraints because a lot of the NGOs were trying to move inland into Myanmar. And know the pandemic exacerbated the situation. The staff were getting stipend cuts, and they started having to mandate that those people who will afford it will contribute some portion of payment for the services, even though they are traditionally a free clinic for the last 35 year, 36 years now. So those were not so good times during the pandemic, and then with the influx of, like, 100,000 new people, the case loads were set to rise. And, you know, budgets were still quite tight. So when I heard about that last year, I decided to do what I can, you know, because I can't change the government policy. I can, you know, grant them more money from any international aid groups, but I can cycle, right? So I decided to pick up my bicycle and start cycling from Singapore to Bangkok to raise about 70,000 Singapore dollars. So that was, you know, pretty challenging, but I would say, 10 times less challenging than the walk this year. This year, the walk was triggered because I saw the news of US aid, you know, deciding to close most of their programs. Or. Pandemic before eventually terminating them. And I reached out to the clinic folks that that I've gotten to know, they told me that this would probably leave them seven, several $100,000 in the rate for for the next three years, yearly. So that impact beyond that, of course, is still difficult to assess. But from from what's publicly available. You know, the other clinics around that area has been much more severely impacted, because may tell clinic is only counting on the US aid for about 15 to 20% of their funding, whereas a lot of the neighboring clinics have already ceased operations since late January. That meant that, obviously, more case loads, you know, less funding, not a great situation to be in if you are free clinic. And the population in that region has only increased. You know, the best estimates are around 250, to 300,000 people living in those three provinces in the last five years since, you know, the coup in Myanmar. So, yeah, I was like, Okay, again, I can't change government policy, you know, I don't have a couple of $100,000 of spare cash to donate. So I was thinking, you know, I need to do something here. And you know, I've already done cycling last year. You know, it'll be a bit repetitive to do that again. So I naively thought that, you know, 50 kilometers a day. You know, I think if you just put one foot before each other and not be that difficult, but it turned out to be a much bigger challenge. What was supposed to be a 10 day trip ended up taking 12 and a half days, and I couldn't feel like one of my feet by the time I arrived there. And yeah, it was just like a way for me to do something about the situation. Because, you know, something had to be done. And more than just the money that was being able to raise, I think we raised more than 150,000 Singapore dollars from the walk. More than that, it was also the awareness of the issue. Because by this point, you know, like the issue along that border with the Carib refugees had been going on for decades, and they had lost the ability to make international headlines. In fact, one was making headlines for the scam centers in masort right a lot of the crime syndicates and people getting kidnapped or being forced to join call centers to scam people in China, those were, again, all the headlines that were coming up, rather than people not getting access to health, to education. You know, the many undocumented and documented migrants living in that area. So, yeah, what for me again, it's like, if you know something, you say something right. It's like New York subway roofs. See something, say something right. And I know that I have information that a lot of people may not have, and you know, just keeping that information in the brain will probably not be the best use of it. So that's what inspired me to decide to embark on this walk. Yeah, and then I guess the rest is history.
Host 22:58
I mean, 12 days walking from Bangkok on foot across borders into mesa. That's, you know, that's an experience that really for those 12 days, like there must have been so many things that stand out, so many experiences that you had along the way. And so I wonder if there's one or two that you might share, that that that can define or describe some of the walk that you took in the experiences that you had.
Jeshua 23:29
Yeah, I guess, like the the whole under preparation and overestimation of myself was probably the most humbling experience, right? Like, as I mentioned, I'm not as Iron Man or super marathoner who does these things. Like, I estimate that on average, I walk about 3500 steps a day, which is 20 times less than what I was targeting to walk for 10 days straight. In terms of preparation, I had two days of preparation walking about 25 kilometers per day, and that was one week apart. So it was like super underprepared, because the whole thing was pretty last minute as well. Similar to the cycling expedition, I had less than a month to get my act together and put together a plan to execute this hike. So huge, humbling moment for myself to realize that, you know, it's not just a mine over matter kind of situation. You know, my body has limits. And I think on day three, after about 140 kilometers into the journey, I just couldn't walk anymore. There were some very severe cramps on my left thigh. And you know, I had one of my I mean, I had my helper who had signed up to assist me with logistics, and, you know, carrying my bag and booking accommodation on the way, he had literally SOS him to come back from the accommodation stop, pick me up. And I was like crashing for more than 24 hours. Couldn't move my leg at all. And we had lots of. Stretching exercises. And, yeah, I guess from then on, I was a lot more careful in terms of, like resting and stretching. And even though it meant going a lot slower and walking for almost 16 hours a day, eventually we managed to avoid, like, a second full day of rest where there was no movement at all, although there were another two more occasions where, you know, I was sort of like at which end and had to take a break and be transported through that personal ambulance of sort. It was just a motorbike, but basically he would, he would pick me up when I couldn't make it anymore and couldn't continue walking, go to the rest point and rest up, and then send me back to where I sort of had to retire forcefully and continue that journey. So, yeah, I guess those moments really reminded me also of the importance of good health, right? And, you know, being in a very privileged situation to in the first place, be able to do this walk, to take time out to, you know, have physical fitness to embark on this, which was the whole reason why I decided to walk in the first place, right? Knowing that a lot of people at the border because of their document status or lack thereof, they do not get the same access to healthcare or education that most people would come to expect as normal if they were growing up, you know, in the country of the above, or in any developed economy,
Host 26:25
Right? And then, so then, as your walk finishes, then the earthquake happens, and then we're all plunged into a completely different reality and world. So tell us what happens then?
Jeshua 26:34
Yeah, exactly. So I think the reception that I received when I arrived at the clinic was quite overwhelming, even before I arrived at the 10 kilometer mark, before reaching there were a group of almost 40 people who volunteered to come and join me on the last lake I imagine, you know, there will be a few people who were intrigued, or, you know, curious about, like, how it feels like to walk, but You'll never imagined so many people would even want to take time off very early in the morning. I think they had to wake up at 6am to meet me at that 10 kilometer mark at the last checkpoint before the main sort entrance. And then when I arrived, I think there were, like a good 100 people there giving me flowers. And you know, I met Dr Cynthia, who's the founder of the clinic. We had a brief chat and then lunch, and went back to the office to, you know, write some newsletters to the donors and let them know that I've arrived safely, communicate with friends and family. But yeah, it wasn't more than 10 minutes before I arrived in the office that the whole building started shaking, and it was pretty severe shake, because, like, it was a two story building, and we were seeing water splashing out of the glasses. So needless to say, you know, everybody evacuated out that building. We all went to the parking lot downstairs, and people were hugging trees. And you know, some of them never experienced the earthquake before. And a funny scene was everyone was like traveling around this Japanese female, Japanese lady, because, you know, they have never experienced earthquake, and they just assumed that any Japanese person would probably know what to do in an earthquake, yeah. But that aside, you know, it soon became very clear when the news reports started coming out, like 1015, minutes later, that, you know, the epicenter was actually deep inside central Myanmar. So what we experienced was just like a 1% you know, of the magnitude that people in in Myanmar probably experienced in Sega in Manley. So looking back, you know, that was another pretty supernatural provision, because I was supposed to be in Myanmar on that 28th of March, if not for, like, the longer than expected walk. You know, I had missed three flights from Masson to Bangkok, Bangkok to Singapore and Singapore to Myanmar. I would have been in the country at that point. And secondly, you know, the opportunity to complete this, this whole walk, you know, before the earth started shaking, you know, was, again, some pretty good timing that, like, I think it would have been pretty different if the earth started shaking, like, one hour before I would arrive, right? I think nobody will have in the mind space or head space to think about this walk anymore. The attention will have completely shifted, and rightly so. I'm not saying that the walk is more important than the earthquake, but yeah, it's sort of like when I look back on it, impeccable timing, and then I continue with my plan to be in Myanmar. So took a bus back to Bangkok that night and then arrived in Myanmar by about 930 the next day.
Host 29:49
And you're speaking to us now from Yangon. We have spoken to several guests since the earthquake that are in the Mandalay sagain region, or that. Are helping with teams that are there, updating them. I realize we haven't really checked in with Yangon and the environment there, and I want to get to what it is your team's doing to help in Upper Burma. But before we do, I wonder if you can just describe this sense of like is, I know that Yangon wasn't rock so much, obviously, is was where the epicenter was, but in terms of like the vibe or the or the energy in the streets, or the way just the people that you're coming in contact with, is there any shift that you felt in the past week since the earthquake?
Jeshua 30:34
For sure, I think the whole country has been shaken right? Not Not literally, but also literally. And you see the connection and the ties that people have go beyond just like blood relatives and friends you know they feel the pain, you know that's going on in the central part of Myanmar, as much as I think I feel like, to some degree, but probably nothing close to what locals are experiencing the physical infrastructure here has more or less remain intact, I think, say for one or two old buildings that may have suffered severe damage. But in terms of the resolve, I think we're seeing one of two responses, you know, there's the bitterness response, which is like, Oh no. One more disaster. You know, one more crisis to add to the whole list, very long list of issues that the country has been facing. And then there's the, you know, let's, let's help response, right? Let's take this opportunity that, since we are not so affected, how can we donate? How can we volunteer? How can we send needed supplies, or, you know, help any groups that are going there to coordinate and do relief and recovery work for those people who are affected, which was a huge reminder, for me, of one of the reasons why, you know, I think this country has so much potential. Yeah. And I think throw it back to, you know, pre pandemic, if you were to go and google like most generous country in the world, Myanmar would regularly rank alongside the US as the most generous country in the world, despite being much more impoverished, right, in terms of material wealth. And that is a reminder to a lot of people at this hour of need. You know, I think when the political situation was unfolding over the last four and a half years, a lot of people were turning a lot more insular and inward, thinking about themselves, thinking about like their own situation, their own family, their own future, which which are very good things to think about, right again, taking nothing away from that. But when a crisis of this scale hits, you know, it has galvanized many people to reconsider, right, whether they are just living for themselves, for their family, or, you know, there's, there's a element of gratitude, of generosity and opportunity to to give and to help those in their hour of need, which those people who are already abroad, you know, obviously will be in a much less strong ability to opposition to help. So I've heard of at least two people in the last week who are starting to reconsider their decision to relocate, which is very heartening, because that is our whole reason for existence now, right? We are trying to stop the brain drain, to share with the people of Myanmar that it's not just about like yourself, because if you are well educated, if you're well resourced, you can probably afford to go overseas, and you will do just a okay, but if all of the people who are educated and well resourced decide to go, then there'll be no next generation of leaders, of entrepreneurs, of coaches and mentors. So it's it's very important for any country's development, just as how I've learned from Singapore's history to have a very strong pool of human resources, which is the thing which differentiates countries and societies in the age of AI. Because AI can, can out do, or out memorize, or out, know, any kind of dictionary or encyclopedia or, you know, population, but AI cannot be a human resource for the country. So, yeah, I think, I think for me, that that was my assessment so far, you know, of the situation and and we have already sort of been able to work with seven or eight different groups and organizations who have put more than 50 people on the ground in Mandalay across different initiatives from like rescue and relief to medical missions to people helping with the shelter Building and food distribution and the list goes on. Within Yangon here, we have activated more than 30 volunteers who have been doing everything from purchasing to packing to, you know, sending out the trucks and back office work like collecting finances, collecting donations and arranging the receipt. Send the certificates and vouchers to different groups, you know, organizing the transportation. So it's kind of like a very all hands on deck type of experience, which is, I think what I last felt during the pandemic in COVID when I was also in Myanmar, and I was seeing so many groups that just sprung up to respond in their own way to help people who were less fortunate, or, in this case, you know, those people who are affected directly by the earthquake.
Host 35:30
It's great to hear this kind of ray of hope that you're you're sharing in what has been such a devastation upon devastation, and to hear about a certain energy changing in Yangon of selflessness, of looking at how one can give back, of of those who've chosen to left that are looking to see how they can come back to serve and to say nothing of what your team has been doing to to shift your own responsibilities as an organization and company, into looking at what you can be sending up North, as well as where you can be going up north. However, one thing we do have to ask is that, you know, it's, it's well documented that the military is blocking certain areas off from aid, that they're confiscating aid, that they're discouraging volunteers, and even worse, that they're arresting, assaulting and even conscripting those that are volunteering, those that are, that are trying to provide the services to help that obviously the state, the authority, whatever it is, is not and so I do have to ask you of those your team that is helping to not just package the material, but also to go and deliver it, which is, you know, really, in any country, in any context, they're Heroes for doing that. That's so wonderful and beautiful to hear. But what can you tell us about the safety considerations and the risks and dangers involved with being an aid worker at this time?
Jeshua 36:51
Yeah, exactly. I think there are always going to be risks, whether it's from the aftershocks or even navigating the harsh weather, there's a huge heat wave in Myanmar, you know, I like to say that, you know, you probably have to look out for the traffic more than anything else, because road accidents and road safety is such a big killer of people. You've got things like health malaria, and I think the laundry list goes on in terms of risk that people face here, and I don't think it's possible to ever live a risk free life, regardless of where you are, and the fact that those people doing the things that they are doing, they have definitely countered the cost. They have definitely done their own analysis on whether this course of action is something that they want to take. I think they know the risk much more than I do. And again, I'm privileged talking as a foreigner, which is not eligible for the military conscription and things like that. But I think it's important to also go back to the walk right as analogy of taking the steps that we can take, doing things small and manageable, steps toward the right direction, and not being like, you know, caught up in analysis paralysis, because there are so many things that we cannot do. I can't change government policy. I can't adjust the way that bureaucracy here works, or, you know, make the earthquake undone. You know, you know, send food from the sky. Those are things far beyond what I can do. But what the question I'm asking myself every day is, of course, what can I do right? And when I reflect on that question, and I am sure I speak for some of the people that I work with as well, I think when they reflect on this question, the answer is that, you know, something is better than nothing, for sure, and being thoughtful in terms of the the way and the manner in which aid is delivered is so important, because it's not just about buying a bunch of food and sending it north, right? I think that could even backfire, because when you do too much of this spoon feeding or giving a fish, people develop a certain reliance on that. And we've seen that in the past with the flood responses, where the communities are incentivized to wait for it to arrive at their doorstep and not to solve the root of the problem. Because every year when it floods, and it floods, almost every year, bags of rice. Just show up. You know, people concern, donate, they help. And that creates a certain sense that, you know, I don't have to go to the root of the problem and solve this, because it's actually a pretty good thing. It's like a two month holiday during this flooding season. I get a lot of aid. So what I'm not saying is that, you know, let's just mindlessly buy rice, buy oil and send them to people who are affected. Of course, I'm not comparing the earthquake to the floods as well, because earthquakes don't happen every year. This is the most major earthquake in the century, and I think there needs to be a good amount of work on the relief effort. But I've also told many, many people that we need to balance our. Long Term response, with our short term response, long term in terms of like capacity building, capability building, because these are things which will affect the country much more than an earthquake, right? We've seen the death toll cross about 4000 people now, and we will see many more people be affected by poor education, by lack of healthcare, by lack of job opportunities, by, you know, lack of good leadership and organization, as has already been the case in this current crisis. Because I know of many groups who have managed to raise funds but have not been able to deploy them because of the challenges that you mentioned, as well as other issues internally, where the leadership is like, fully abroad, and you have a lot of like, you know, for lack of a better word, loss sheep, who are wondering, you know, what should I do now? Now that I have all these mandate to help and fund funding, where should they go? How should it be delivered? Who are the people I should talk to? And I think our company, you know, and our circle, is relatively more privileged, because we have very educated group of young people who have good connections, generally come from well to do backgrounds, because they work with international companies. So even folks like who used to work with the World Health Organization, with EY, with Unilever, they have been extremely instrumental to purchase, you know, all these supplies that we have been able to distribute, and we are also allocating, you know, the finances that we have received, both from our employees as well as their friends and families, toward a portfolio of different initiatives, both direct initiatives and indirect initiatives, so that we sort of don't put our eggs in one basket, and then we can double down on the ones which have worked very well, which is again, drawing a bit on my experience in venture capital and fund management side of things. And then on top of that, breaking down into immediate relief and things that continue to be helpful and useful in the longer term, things like, you know, access to clean water, things like the electronics, like solar chargers, solar lights, where a lot of these areas have already not had consistent electricity pre earthquake. So procuring those electronic equipment, those water filtration kits, is not like an immediate response to the earthquake, although it helps with people's immediate needs, but it also helps with long term needs, and then earmarking some portion of that funds to longer term initiatives like capacity building and community building, because the earthquake is what gets the headlines right. The ability to deliver it quickly is what is in fashion now in terms of social media and what grabs the headlines, but it's not what's going to affect most people in the longest of horizons. So we are intentionally setting aside, you know, our resources and our attention and our focus to work short term as well as medium term as well as longer term measures and initiatives, so that we don't put our eggs in one basket and we are able to double down on things that work, as well as make sure that the initiatives and our efforts contribute to the long term development of the country as well.
Host 43:12
Yeah, I think that's really sharp to be able to look at not just the immediate knee jerk reaction of aid on top of aid on top of aid. And the most recent podcast guest we had, Lily spoke about the importance, she's in Mandalay saagyi, and the importance of doing needs assessments that you know you shouldn't have. Every single donor showing up, giving drinking water, maybe they need maybe there's not enough rice. You need to do a bit of investigation and find that out. That's short term. But then we also talked about, and it's you mentioned as well. It's it's a topic of conversation the different stages of what's needed in different times as as is rebuilt. As I hear that, though I also I'm left with the same question I have with the aid delivery, which is the the elephant in the room of the military, because this idea of capacity building, of getting to the root of the problem, of finding the of community building, and finding the way to restructure and to build the right way so you don't have those problems again. That's I don't want to take away from any of that, and I also don't want to politicize the good things that you're saying and just kind of sweep over them with the same concern as you know whatever good ideas or good work you're doing and you're let's acknowledge you're on the ground. You're doing these things physically on the ground, so you're there doing it. That does give you a certain kind of, I think, validity, that that that those that are outside just thinking about things or talking about things is somewhat different. So I do acknowledge that at the same time, you know, there it's, as you're saying this, I can't help but think of and wonder about the role of the military in this. Because we've, we've had so many conversations with past podcast guests. I. I've experienced, friends have experienced, talked about, I'm sure that you've had so much of this as well, is that it's not enough that there's an authority that's just not serving and supporting the people in the way that you see authorities in other places in the world, it's that they're also actively preventing and prohibiting the people from self organizing and taking care of themselves in the way that they might like to as well. And so, you know, how do you these, these long term plans, you have these, these ideas of capacity building and sustainability and getting at the root of the problem, these really good ideas that you're trying to put into works. How do you Where does that come into concert with the fact of these brutal military leaders that are, in many cases, getting in the way of these local community ground initiatives that are taking place.
Jeshua 45:53
Yeah, again, I'm not a citizen of Myanmar, and I don't think I can speak on behalf of the people here, from from my perspective, you know, the challenging times that we are facing review more than what we should do, right? It reviews who we should be. And I think who I've chosen to be in this point of time, right is not someone who looks at the impossibilities, but the possibilities. I don't think that it is impossible, you know, I think that it is possible, you know, for these challenges that you have mentioned, as well as a lot of other challenges that the country faces, from climate change to, you know, the earthquake, rebuilding, I don't think that, you know, sitting on the sidelines and you know, deciding to be, you know, in the analysis paralysis mode that I mentioned will will do as much as, you know, throwing everything we can at the wall and seeing what sticks approach, which is a nice way of saying, you know, like what the startup or innovation culture promotes. You know, it's iteration and constant evaluation before we refine and find the MVP, and then go on ahead to find that product market fit, and then go to market and scale. So I think having a very entrepreneurial mindset, problem solving mindset, is integral. And what I've chosen for myself to navigate this mirad of challenges that are before me. I'm under no impression or illusion that there are no challenges in front of me. And you know, I think it's the choice or the path as an entrepreneur, right? If you want a life which is relatively problem free and smooth and steady, you would work in a nine to five job. You know, you would want to have, have health insurance, you know, have, house insurance, have stable employment, but I think that the life of an entrepreneur is pretty much a lot of uncertainty, a lot of risk management, a lot of engaging with the problem head on, rather than avoiding or deciding to not engage. So I think that's the best way I can answer that question.
Host 48:04
Sure. So then if, when you're talking about facing the problem head on, obviously, in this particular case, coming off of the earthquake and the mass devastation and displacement and all the other problems that we're seeing in Upper Myanmar, that's the immediate problem to somehow solve. But you're also talking about different stages of long term solutions that are not just providing immediate aid, which is so important right now, given just the immediacy of what happened and the devastation that's there, but then rebuilding beyond that, and rebuilding with all the problems you say that are the challenges in front of us that you know, anything from climate change to crazy traffic to, you know, to an active military that is assaulting civilians for four years on and so and so, acknowledging what that immediate problem is of the aftermath of the earthquake. What do you see as the more long term problem in the Mandalay saga in region and where, where are you looking with your team to try to equip solutions, to to rebuild and to help them, beyond just simply giving.
Jeshua 49:14
Sure I've written in my last newsletter about the same thing. You know, I feel that even if we increase international aid by 10 times right, in terms of dollar terms to the country, it will not move the needle much, as much as you know, having just 20% of the Diaspora come back right, which goes back to the brain drain problem that we have been cracking at for many years. I think the country needs people who care, right? The country needs people who want to do something to solve the problems that they're facing. And the world is realizing, especially in today's day and age, you know, as of eight of April, right after the so called Liberation Day, that you know, you can't count on another country to help you, right, as much as it sounds pretty doom and gloom. So the experience of walking for hope from Bangkok to me. So it was also on the basis that, you know, certain countries are not going to care as much moving forward. And, you know, we should never take for granted any kind of assistance, or, you know, be overly reliant on foreign aid or foreign intervention, because the word is simple, right? It's foreign, and, you know, you can't rely on that. So you've got to rely on people who, you know, connected to the fellow citizens of this country, who want to do good and do their part by their fellow country, men and women. So ensuring that, you know, there is still a good population of well educated and well resourced people here. You know, if and when situation improves, or in the in the interim, that is going to be invaluable toward, you know, a lot of the problems that the country is currently facing, in my opinion.
Host 50:58
It is, and I mean, during the transition, as you well know, there was this phenomenon of what they called repats, the Myanmar, who had been abroad for so long with an unstable political situation, coming back to want to help build the country, and giving up a lot of their life overseas to that they built, to want to come and see their country do well. And on our second episode that we did after the earthquake, we had one guest theory who was quite literally in tears on our podcast, saying, This is what's happening to my country, and I can't go there and help. So, you know, in some sense, this brain drain that you're talking about, and I want to get I know this is an issue very dear to your heart, and I want to expand on this in a moment, because I think there's a difference of between brain drain when there's an active conflict zone and when individuals know that that they personally, individually, would not be safe if they came back to their home soil and a brain drain where there's there's there, there's any sort of problems that are happening in the home country, and one just kind of prefers to live in a more stable, predictable environment for their own well being. I think that's definitely a topic to take up. But for this particular topic, you know, I know I don't know too many other nationalities that love their country the way that Myanmar people love their country and that want to see their country succeed in that same way you know. Truly want to see it become as you talk about the potential, want to see it develop into that potential they know is there, and I know that that's what is so heartbreaking to so many right now, is that they how desperately they want to go, how much they fought leaving in the first place, so many friends that I have you know how they tried to stay until the last moment, risking their own safety in many cases, and eventually realizing, coming to the conclusion that they had that they could help their country more outside than inside, given the lack of freedoms that they were beginning to face and how limited they became. You know, the tragedy with this, of course, is that 1988 This is what many went through in 1988 8990 and then some of them who left with the plans to come back soon after, just as we're seeing after 2021 they stayed out a generation. They stayed out decades. You know, they lost touch with what their country was, and came back only in the transition. And so I know that a lot that have left since 2021 are facing the same fears. You know, what they plan to be several months or maybe several years at most. Could it be another generation? And so, you know, and so, so I'm balancing your, I think, very justifiable concerns with what brain DRA does to countries, and particularly to Myanmar, with the fact that, based on the military takeover and the brutality they've shown in their role, that there are a lot of youth that are legitimately unsafe, you know, because of their some of them, some just simply because of their age and background, others for very specific reasons that for, you Know, their fields, their what they've done, they would not be safe if they go back. And so, you know, I think it is. It's, I think we all hope that there can be a day when, when that choice can be made and one's safety won't be in jeopardy for coming back.
Jeshua 54:18
Yeah, I don't take anything away from, you know, people's decision and agency. I think people need to recognize, you know, that ultimately it's a mindset issue. Sometimes, you know, having the choice and the perspective that I get to do something is always better than that perspective, or if I have to do something, which you know as much as you know, there are real circumstances. You know, I feel like there's another crisis that's happening, which is the the whole victim mindset situation, right? Of saying that I have no choice, you know, this was the only way. This was I had to do this, and that is not helpful as well. You know, we need to be. Between, like, adopting a can do spirit and, you know, having a responsible mindset as well. And in terms of the kind of degree of, you know, the risk that people are seeing and the risk reward ratio of moving abroad, I do think that the narrative is, again, very skilled towards one side of it, because what people see and hear on social media is engineered, you know, by algorithms, as well as by human psyche, to be the success stories of relocation. Because it's a huge industry, right? Let's face it, an agent gets 1000s of dollars just by moving someone abroad. And it's like hands off for them. They get the money whether the person does well or not, they are enriched. And there's a lot of people along the supply chain of this immigration economy who are getting their pockets lined. So there's a huge incentive for people to, you know, send the brains out. And secondly, on the individual front right when people go overseas and they end up working in nice jobs and finding I get scholarships and, you know, settle down and have a family, those are the stories which usually end up on social media. It's not common that I hear or see people posting up like stories on social media that, hey, look, I'm now a Door Dash delivery man. I'm now Uber driver. I'm working on minimum wage, or under minimum wage. I'm, you know, struggling to from paycheck to paycheck, or I used to be a software engineer. Now I'm waiting tables in Thailand. But those are the stories that I know of, like dozens of people who have taken that underemployment route, even unemployment route, even, you know, handouts route and asking for support from family route, which is like, to me, almost like a 90% of people who are leaving the country now, they are settling for a lower standard of living, in some ways, not, not in every way, in some ways, to the standard of living that They would have experienced back home. And that kind of story is maybe represented, like, 20% of the time in terms of social media and people sharing it. Because it's a very Asian thing to to want to save face, right? To want to show only the good parts. And there's a bit of a sun cause fallacy as well, because the moment someone goes and, you know, it's like, when you come back, it's like, Oh, why did you come back? You know, why was it? Wasn't everything great in so and so country? So I'm not taking away anything from individual agency and choice, because that's my decision as well. You can say I was a bit of a brain drain from Singapore, right? Like, why am I not contributing more to Singapore and helping my own country? And that was my choice, right? So I own the choice, and I think people who go overseas need to own that choice as well. But why I'm so passionate about the information asymmetry was maybe because of my background in media, maybe because of the stories I'm hearing from actual people who are being very underemployed. Currently, I know of a former colleague of mine who has, like, two degrees and wrote books and things like that, and he ends up working in a fast food chain as a not even a waiter, which collects tips, you know, but someone in the back office cleaning up the trash and living from paycheck to paycheck in California. So the fact that somebody can go overseas, you know, maybe, in their own assessment, a good outcome, right? But I do think that if taken on whole, even even using a very extreme, you know, ideological and mental experiment, like if we put 5 million of the people who are overseas back in the countries, is it possible for the prisons to put 5 million people inside there? I don't think that's logistically possible, right? So in terms of the fear, there is justifiable degrees of fear, and each case is different, but collectively, right? I think it has been a bit overdone. I think there has been a bit of fear of missing out of like, you know, I'm leaving because my friends are leaving. I'm worried. And the things I'm seeing in terms of negative news is spreading six times faster than positive news, and positive news of people relocating is spreading faster than the negative news of them being underemployed. And the accumulation of all of these statistics has skewed the narrative very significantly. So I'm trying to provide, like, an alternative perspective, and again, with what I was doing with here, Myanmar and showing another side of the country, I think it's also good to highlight the challenges that people face when they move overseas for good intentions. Right? Again, none of these people are thinking of like how I can harm the country, how I can harm the prospects of myself and my family. Everyone lives with good intentions, but the information that they utilize or they consume to make such decisions might be a little bit slanted and skilled in one direction in my assessment.
Host 59:59
Mm. Right? So there's a lot there, and I think, and let me start out by saying, I think it's great that you're providing this direct opportunity to Burmese, to have a wholesome employment, fulfilling that's also being able to give a living wage and to develop that's that's wonderful. And you're also presenting a story of those that are going abroad for for economic reasons, for seeking out a better economic life and better economic opportunities. And I want to differentiate that, that that, while that might be a story and a reason for some, that the what I was referring to when I was speaking just now was was not the community of individuals I I've known who have gone out, have not gone for economic reasons. They've gone pure and simple for safety and and I think if you were to just walk along the street on Chiang Mai or some other places where a lot of Burmese creatives and professionals and individuals have gone, you're just, you're seeing the best and the brightest, and you're seeing the best and the brightest of certain kinds of people that absolutely don't want to be there. You know that that went kind of kicking and screaming out the door and and that none of these, or I don't want to say none, I don't want to make an exaggeration, but of the ones that I've spoken to, of the ones that have told their story in the podcast, of my friends, that that, that I've met in these communities, they've rather than overestimating the danger, their stories usually involve underestimating the danger. Their stories involve holding out until the last minute, until the police raided their family's house, or, you know, they came looking for them at work, and then it was barely too late. These are the stories of the people who left. You know, the people that were not so lucky, that were underestimating the danger because they just simply did not want to leave, because they love their country so much. Those are the stories we don't hear because they're the ones who end up getting killed or conscripted or tortured or arrested or put into those prisons. And so, you know, so I think, yes, I think there's, there's a lot of reasons why, why one would leave, and there's a lot of reasons for the brain drain and and I think that, you know, it's again, it's going back to this elephant in the room that that, that of the the individuals that that I've spoken to, having to, having to leave their country during this time of crisis, and not going back now, It's one of the most excruciating decisions they've ever made. You know, and they they that loss of home is something that they carry with them every day, that they haven't gone out to seek better opportunities to enrich their lives. Their decision to leave has been that again, going back to what I said before, it was an evaluation that they could help their country more by being outside the borders than in. I'm not making the argument that that's true. That's an objectively true statement for for everyone. I think that that there's any number of activities that individuals could be doing and they have to. And I completely defer to the decision making process of those that are on the ground according to their own safety. I know many people that are still inside the country, and they're moderating their own safety risks, and they're doing amazing things, but others have made the determination that that what what their skills really are and what they could be doing, that those are better served by being outside the country. And so I do think that it's important that that we we have this broad perspective and understanding of of the conflict, the conflict that has engulfed Myanmar, and that we're also clear on the role this conflict has played in the current brain drain, and that we're aware of the perpetrator of this conflict. You know that this is this is not a civil war. This is not different groups that are suddenly active and wanting to fight each other and destabilizing everything. This is one brutal destabilizing force that is at the root, you know, when we're talking about the root of a lot of this, this this instability and this and this displacement and this movement and this lack of being able to build long term solutions. You know, I don't want to keep coming back to the political and I also don't want to be presenting, to be putting out this argument as kind of a naysayer that, you know, oh, no one can do anything good. And this is the excuse nothing gets done and, and, and there's no reason to be positive in a try. No, I don't agree with that at all. I wouldn't be in the business I'm doing of having conversations and and all the humanitarian projects we also support on the ground. If I didn't believe in in the agency and the ability for change, I mean that that's that's a belief that that I personally in this platform hold very dear and close to the heart, yet at the same time, I also think it is important, when looking and analyzing at the situation, to kind of know, you know, where the root of all this instability is coming from, and where the real perpetrator is and and that doesn't mean there's nothing we can do, but it also, you know, it just kind of informs the challenges that we're seeing and the way that we're trying to overcome them. You know, we do know that there is a. A very strong destabilizing force at the center of that which is is not moved by reason or entreaty or negotiation or compromise or compassion or any of those qualities and and it does become a roadblock for not an impossible roadblock, as you have shown and demonstrated and many of my friends and many of the projects I've seen, the ones that we've also tried to engage in, not an impossible one, but a but certainly a formidable roadblock nonetheless.
Jeshua 1:05:31
Yeah, I mean, again, I take nothing away from the individual choice and agency that people need to have, right? I think the human spirit is something I believe very strongly in and I cannot speak for, you know, my friends from from Myanmar, and I'm not a Burmese person, so I want to speak as a Singaporean, right? I think as a Singaporean, when I meet foreigners, you know who are across my travels, you know a lot of them, when they talk to me, they tell me that, oh, you're not like the other Singaporeans I met. You know you're not like the other Singaporeans. I know. And you know when, when they go to Singapore, they are, they are shocked. They are like, why are the Singaporeans in Singapore so different from you? Why are the Singaporeans here in Singapore so different from other Singaporeans who are living out in New York or California? And I think the reason is pretty simple, because it's a bit of a selection bias, right? So the people who from Singapore, who are in those places, they chose to be there, right? They probably had push and pull factors as well. And when, when interacting with these diaspora or Singaporeans in California or in New York, there is a certain perception of the government, you know, being maybe a bit too many state or not, not their cup of tea, right? Such that they decided that maybe it's better if I move to another country. So I think the same selection bias, to some degree, is going to be there when you talk to people from their country who are no longer there. You know, not to say that I love Singapore, you know, I think I'm very pro Singapore, but I think there's going to be a certain degree of difference. You know, when you speak to people within the country and you speak people outside of the country, simply by virtue of the fact that they have chosen not to be in the country, or the statistics and numbers don't lie. So I like to point to, you know, certain groups of people, like the Hmong, people who are more heavily represented in the US than in Myanmar, right? So I believe for those people, the fact that most of them have chosen to leave it must have been a pretty difficult situation for them back in Myanmar, right? At least the situation in the US must have seemed to be much better, and the majority of them decided that that was a better life for themselves. However, if you are talking about the whole of Myanmar with a population of more than 50 million people, I think it's still the numbers don't lie, that more than 80% of the population is still within the country, and so for 80% of these people, maybe they couldn't leave. Maybe they chose to stay, maybe they had no choice. But by and large, most people still are in the country. So my prerogative, or my focus right is, is to focus on this group of people who are either choosing to come back or choosing not to leave or have no way of living, because I'm just a very simple guy, you know, I like to go where the bigger problem or the bigger opportunity is. Why would I go after place industry, which is literally killing the golden goose in the form of like, okay, let's say I'm opening an employment agency and I'm trying to make 1000 or 3000 $5,000 every time I get one person out of the country, because that business will be out of good talent to ship out within less than a decade. Whereas, if you, you know, just keep getting the aches of the golden goose by ensuring that you have good capacity and human capital within the country, that's going to be a slower route to, you know, success or economic prosperity, or you know your horizon needs to be really long. That's why I tell any business person your horizon needs to be really long. But you know, you have a horizon. You compound, you know, your growth from a small base, but you know, with a good growth rate, when you operate in an economy with with more uncertainty, which, like 1% of iPhone, right? Is 1% of $1,300 if you can do an incremental increase in iPhone sales in the US, that's a great business, but you are not going to grow your user base of iPhone users in the US by 30% year on year, whereas, if you are operating out in Myanmar, these people, when you provide them with a job, when you provide them with economic opportunities, when you provide them with healthcare and water and things which are essential for them, as the country grows and experiences higher growth rate than a developed economy, you also compound that return. So. So it's not a judgment on, you know, whether you need to go for a stable and slow growth or, you know, more uncertain and riskier appetite, which has the potential of more returns, but also potential of greater loss. Everyone has to make their own individual assessment. Every company has to make their own judgment call in terms of which path is preferred for them, yeah, but I've always been someone who, as an entrepreneur at heart, you know, decides that you know the risk, something that no, I want to take managing and I'm swinging for the fences. You know, going for the long term, my horizon is longer than most people. And I think that there is value in a bit of a contrarian thinking. And, you know, usually it starts off sounding like a crazy idea until, you know, more people start following, and then eventually it becomes like, oh, yeah, why didn't we think of that? So I think that's been like my experience in the world of startups and entrepreneurship so far, and then I could be completely wrong, you know, I could be completely out of my mind. And I guess only time would help. No,
Host 1:11:11
that's that's very interesting. And, you know, I think being an entrepreneur with a new business idea anywhere in the world is, is an experience of taking risk and of betting on yourself and believing in yourself. And I think doing it in in countries that are, we'd say, more unstable or have more issues, for whatever reasons, the risk involved is obviously greater. And yet, doing it in Myanmar now doing it in having being an entrepreneur post 2021 and I know that you've also written in your sub stack of the torturous decision you've gone through of whether to stay or go, and how hard it was for you to decide whether to continue and stay on and commit or or that if things just are too difficult, and that you have to leave and, and you've chosen to stay on And, you've chosen to believe in what you're doing and to bet on yourself and to not make excuses as you use your words, not make excuses, not have a victim mentality, not to give in to all the reasons why things won't work. And so I'm also wondering to what degree as you're building this business plan, and what you would like to see this long term vision. To what degree is the political system relevant or necessary for where you want to go? To what degree is it important to have some to operate in a place? Or, let me rephrase that, obviously it's important to operate in a place that has democracy and human rights. That's not what I mean to ask. I think we would all agree on that. But to what degree is your the risk of your business plan, the success of your business plan in operating in a country that has, has, we could say, has more democracy and more respect for human rights, versus one that is, is in active conflict and has a military that's, you know, to borrow the words of a recent guest we had, really operates like an organized crime syndicate or a mafia or terrorist outfit, that's a lot more risk and for you to be focused on doing what you're trying to do and to build what you're trying to build. And I understand, you're not someone who likes to make excuses you you're not someone who likes to to have any kind of victim mentality, but, but to what degree is that, the nature of that political system that your business is resting on? To what degree do you consider that? Do you find that relevant? Does it keep you up at night? Do you change or base your plans on? Or to what degree are you really just confident in your own model and where you're trying to what you're trying to what you're trying to build, and where you're trying to go, kind of however, the overall political and social situation turns out in the ups and downs of it.
Jeshua 1:13:50
I wouldn't say that it's completely irrelevant, and as I wouldn't say that it's completely top of my mind. At the same time, I think, drawing from my own experience as a Singaporean, you know, we've had the same government in power since 1959 so some people have said that that's not much of a democracy. Some people have said that, you know, you guys are like the what, benevolent dictatorship or something. And I don't want to comment on my own country's politics either, but you know, the the situation in this part of the world, right? Let's just say in Indo China is such that if you are a liberal democracy, like what you have in Western developed economies, like in Europe and US, you are sticking out like a sore thumb, because none of the Indo Chinese countries are actually liberal democracies, right? Look at Laos, look at Cambodia, look at Vietnam, look at Thailand, if you expand that that scope to the whole of ASEAN, right, you have maybe one or two which which resemble, a bit of like a democracy, but still, I think by Western standards, they'll be pretty far behind. So we have to also take into account the context, right, which this country is in. Before making an assessment on whether it's more of the norm or whether it's not the norm. And in terms of going back to my What do you call that operating principles or psyche? It's about not what I want to do in this situation, or how I can, like, react to, you know, the current affairs, because I don't control the economies, the policies. I'm not in government. So what I can do, however, is to ask who I want to be, and obviously, from that, decide what I want to do. So I have decided for myself that, you know, the the the accumulation of of my background and experiences, you know, all the way up, from dropping out of school to studying companies to traveling to being working in different industries, from like venture capital startups, media has has brought me to this position, right? And my position or my privilege is to do the work that I do, and it will be a huge shame, you know, if I decide to, you know, work in as an analyst, or, you know, as a, you know, banker, or no, if those paths are even open to me at this point back in Singapore, you know, doing a nine to five, I think that would be, like, quite a big shame, if you ask me. So on those assessments, I've decided to do what I'm doing now, and, of course, always evaluating when new information is available when, you know, I have a opportunities being put in front of me, like this earthquake, you know, it's like I could have easily decided to book a flight back to Singapore. I had actually chosen to miss another two more trips that I was supposed to make. So right now I was actually tomorrow, I was having a flight booked for India. I was going to be in the Ladakh and Himalayan mountain ranges, having a bit of a retreat personally, but here I am, you know, in Yangon, and not regretting a single moment of this decision.
Host 1:17:09
That's wonderful. And I'm just curious, what does a Himalayan retreat look like for you? Well,
Jeshua 1:17:14
I've been there many times. I've been on both the Pakistani side as well as the Kashmir region and Jammu region in India, also in the Sikkim and the Himalayan ranges in Nepal. So it's like a place that I regularly revisit, because it's very peaceful. You know, you have a lot of quiet, less light pollution. You can see the whole Milky Way. I love the cuisine as well. So I've been to, like, 15 or 16 states of India, and always looking forward to making a trip every one or two years to immerse myself in a different culture, in the sight sounds, food and people that I get to meet.
Host 1:17:57
So you, you decided, instead of this Himalayan retreat, to stay in Yangon and to with your team, to organize your team to help in sending and packaging and sending these supplies up north to be able to help earthquake survivors. What's next for you regarding the response to the earthquake?
Jeshua 1:18:16
Yeah, we are evaluating reports from the ground, from the seven or eight groups that we are supporting in terms of which areas need more help and what kind of help we're also taking into account, you know, external reports from from different sources, trying to sort of piece together what's the actual situation. Because we are operating in a huge cloud of, you know, information asymmetry, once again, where different groups are giving different reports. So primary information and primary sources are invaluable, right? When we actually send people down to do recces and to provide aid and to talk to the local communities which have been affected, those are the information that we're prioritizing. And then, like medium term, looking at the recovery and the how the cleanup might be necessary post earthquake, because obviously the window of opportunity for rescue is probably closing, and in my own assessment, a lot of the aid groups that have brought in truckloads of supplies have already distributed them. So things are sort of like winding down on the immediate relief front, moving more toward the recovery angle, and for us, you know, moving even beyond that into how we can continue to support long term capacity building, both in Yangon as well, as, you know, in affected regions, but even more so in affected regions, because those guys, you know, they are extremely vulnerable now, you know, in terms of not having a roof over their head, in terms of having lost significant material possessions due to the earthquake, and the concept of like insurance in Myanmar is still pretty nascent. So those people who are getting like an. Disaster insurance payouts, you know, it's going to be minuscule, and a lot of them are going to be set back, literally, you know, many years in terms of finance or rebuilding their livelihoods and their savings. And I think that there needs to be a lot more empathy from, you know, the watching world, but also, you know, a lot more action and problem solving on the ground by my local individuals and groups to address the magnitude of the issue that we are looking at.
Host 1:20:30
So you say you're looking at these long term capacity building based on the understanding of what's going on, and wanting to have a first hand account of of what the issues are and what the problems are. Do you do you have any of that long term capacity building plans or even brainstorms in mind now? Or are you not yet at that stage?
Jeshua 1:20:51
We do have a few ideas. I think the the allocation again, right, is again, a very big emphasis for us, because it's not just about putting all your AC one basket, right? We don't want to go all in on like, Okay, we believe that education is going to be like the silver bullet to solve all things, because, again, the needs are vast, and the approach no one has a mobility on good ideas. So we want to continue supporting, you know, and also doing direct assistance to different groups. And we want to look at what has been effective and double down on that balance between things which which are going to be like a one off, giving the fish and helping people in their immediate hour of need, as well as things that continue to be effective, providing clean water filtration systems, providing access to telemedicine, or some kind of community center where people can do co living, co working, those, those are some ideas at this point, very early stage and in the immediate term, obviously hospitality and providing people with a roof over their Heads or or at least some kind of a more robust shelter, so that they'll be shielded from the elements, from the mosquitoes and the heat of the day, have solar lamps and solar charges to be able to stay connected. And, yeah, I mean, the next thing, which is probably on the horizon, is also the monsoon season, so flooding and things like that has been an issue which Myanmar has a long and story history with dealing with, which, which I feel will be exacerbated by the damage from the earthquake in terms of the drainage systems or piping. And, you know the fact that a lot of these aid comes in in plastic packaging, which, which might be indiscriminately thrown around, causing, like, clock drains. So there are, like, a laundry list of different ways that we can possibly deploy our attention, time resources to work, and we can do all of them. So we want to assess, you know, and consult with people, our people on the ground, our beneficiaries, as well as the donors who are, you know, funding a lot of these efforts, where and how we should best allocate, and then eventually make a judgment call, you know, because we don't want to also be caught in that problem of analysis paralysis. So I think, I think doing something is better than doing nothing, and that's what we intend to do. And, you know, trusting that, you know, there will be different people filling different gaps. Different gaps amidst the pretty opaque information situation that we are dealing with as well.
Host 1:23:30
And these are some great ideas I have. May I ask, how you're planning to fund this? Are you? Are you looking for donations? Are you having campaigns? Are you looking at social enterprises, or is this a byproduct of the business you have set up? What are your plans for, where the funding will come to be able to launch some of this?
Jeshua 1:23:50
Yeah, we are not launching any public fundraising campaigns at this moment, or not running any public fundraising campaigns, because we don't know exactly how much we need. We don't know what's the like duration that these things are going to take? So I think it will not be very responsible to go out and ask for a bunch of money for for a like, uncertain project, but we have had contributions from our staff, from their families and friends. So we have a bit of an internal fund that we have put together from people who have wanted to contribute to our efforts without us asking. And then we also have a allocation in terms of our revenue that we make as a business that goes toward, you know, pay it forward. You can call it CSR, or helping other people type of fund. So right after the earthquake, actually, we did deploy about 113 point 7 million chats, or about 4000 Singapore dollars worth of food from our inventory to a lot of the eight people. And we were able to do that pretty quickly because we had really the stock in our warehouse. So that's going to be an. The source of funding. And then, of course, if we do decide to do any fundraising, I think we need to go through the proper channels and have the right check and balances to make sure that there's, like, maximum accountability and trust transparency. We might have to do it through like a nonprofit or some kind of charity setup, so that it's not like, you know, individuals asking for money, which I think is not an ideal situation to be in, because we need to look beyond the immediate right to the ultimate. I think the immediate need is there, and it might be more expedient to, you know, go around the rules and and ask people to donate directly and things like that. But long run, people need to have confidence and trust that, you know, the funds are being channeled in the right places, and there is systems and safeguards to ensure that there isn't wastage and fraud and things like that. You know, which we're going to diminish the long term confidence in both our ability to respond as well as the country's, you know, human capital that area so desperately trying to shore up.
Host 1:26:06
Now, you talked about prioritizing the first hand accounts and wanting to bypass social media and and kind of the the trends or the waves of what you're hearing and be able to just get those first hand reports as much as possible from your own team members, as well as the ones that they're in touch with. I think this is the case that all of us are in you, you're a bit more proximate than many of our listeners, and then myself, and being able to to to call upon those that are, that are on the ground, or knows no individuals on the ground, and be able to learn firsthand from a wide variety of people, and start to get a picture of what you're seeing, what you're seeing, what you're finding, what the situation really is.
Jeshua 1:26:51
I feel like there's kind of big focus on, you know, the things that people can buy and distribute, right? You know, whether it's food, medical supplies, mosquito nets, solar lamps, because these are, these are things you can touch and feel, but there's a lot less emphasis on, you know, the intangibles, right? So, whether it's education, whether it's, you know, morale or mental health or the mindsets issues you know that, I think, ultimately, are the operating system of the country, of the people. So if we are trying to run a iPhone 16 on, you know, iOS three or four, that's going to be like the impact of having the most advanced rescue teams and logistics and materials on the ground, whereas the brain infrastructure, you know, the heart infrastructure, the mind infrastructure, is still left in the previous century. So yeah, it's again, back to capacity building and making sure that that people not just get the fish, but also learn how to use it. We have had a lot of pains explaining to people like how, even even in our urban situation, here in Yangon, right, like you give people a job. And some of them, they are so used to working on their mobile phones because Myanmar, a lot of people had had the phones before the computers. So they would do like, everything on their phones when, obviously, having a full size keyboard and a big screen will be more optimal for productivity and for their eyes, you know, to not be so strained. So you have these things where, like, it's going to be a lot worse, I would imagine, you know, in the rural areas, where people are suddenly going to have a lot of these things, you know, dropped on them from from well wishing people. And it could again create that issue of reliance. It could create that problem where people become a bit entitled to, like, oh, just because my house got destroyed, or just because, which is nothing small, but, you know, it can possibly, in the extreme case, create that dependent victim mindset to some degree. So giving people ownership, agency and tools needed to update their internal operating system, to focus on education, to focus on mindsets and build capabilities of the populations, those amongst those who are affected by the quick as well as those people who who are not directly affected. I think that needs to be the the top priority, right? If I could say at this point, so that the country can get back on its feet.
Host 1:29:48
Right? I appreciate you taking the time and talk to us about your journey into Myanmar, work you're doing, and then post coup, post earthquake, all the great things that you and your organization. Have been involved with. And I'd like to close by returning back to the story you shared of when you wanted to know Myanmar more you started walking to and traveling to all these different regions and meeting all these different kinds of people from different backgrounds and different parts of the geography. And I find it interesting, because when you arrived, you're in as many of us who do come to Myanmar, you're in an urban setting, meeting mostly bamar people. And that's the initial impression that many have who come to the country and have those early sets of interactions. And you describe wanting to go beyond that, and wanting to to really get to know people on a more granular level and and go into places where maybe foreigners don't venture so much, and have those conversations. One of the early bits of insights that you offered was realizing just how agrarian the people were and how whatever was going on, they just, they, they cared about living off the land and how the harvest would be and and, etc. But I'd like to close by just prompting you to share a bit more about any memories that come to mind of who you were meeting, what they were telling you, or if there were, you know, I'm sure, as you were going along, meeting more people talking. There must have been some light bulb moments. There must have been some kind of conversations or interactions where suddenly you just realized something in a way that you hadn't before. So I'd like to prompt you to share anything about some of those early experiences of firsthand trying to learn about this country.
Jeshua 1:31:35
Yeah, I mean the 125 videos worth of insights, plus more that were not cut out. But I feel that in my personal journey, right of the last 10 plus years, the understanding of risk has really been enhanced. Because many times when people hear that I've going to Johannesburg, you know, going to places like Nicaragua or Honduras, or, you know, Argentina, they're like, Wow, dangerous, dangerous, you know, aren't you afraid of the crime? And, you know, then, then, of course, I say, like, you know, I've been in Myanmar for many years. And, oh, Myanmar, you know, like, scan centers, like, you know, the conflict and things like that. And surprisingly, or unsurprisingly, you know, I've never had any untoward thing done to me in Myanmar. In the 40 plus times that I've been here over the last 10 plus years, I've arrived in some parts of the US where, you know, within a few hours of arriving across the Bay Bridge in California to Oakland, I heard gunshots, like four or five gun shots, and I were right in front of me at Lake merit at 4pm in the afternoon. That was a eye opening moment, you know, I I was like, Wow, lots of homeless people in LA, you know, in Europe, getting pickpocketed, robbed in front of me, in front of a lot of CCTVs in broad daylight. Those were not places where a lot of people had the impression of risk, right? When people go for a holiday, at least from Singapore, a lot of them think, like, you know, they're going on a Euro tour, and then going to, like, five or six countries in the Eurozone. It's going to be, like, a great adventure, Paris, you know, UK, Spain, you know, those are going to be, like, very adventurous and fun things to do, and then nobody really thinks that that's dangerous. But, you know, unfortunately or fortunately, my experience has been quite the reverse. There were a lot of times, literally, where, you know, I ended up, you know, in a boat without a Moe toe, in the middle of the open sea because, like, the engine had broken down. And, you know, there were a lot of things that could have gone wrong. You know, we were also setting up the min soon dam, which is the infamous project that the Chinese wanted to invest in. And the boat driver was like shaking his boots, thinking that someone's going to shoot us because, you know, we were not supposed to be there. And then that was in, like, upper Kahin state, we had experiences where I'd been invited into a tribal family's home. You know, they were doing like animal sacrifices. And this was in Kyaw state, in the MO Suu village, where the local people celebrate like this totem festival every year. So my colleague, who's female, was with me on that trip, and she was like the first female who had ever gone near the totem because it's still very traditional in the mindset, and females are not allowed close to these sacred things. But on the account that, you know, we were the first foreigners, I was the first foreigner who had showed up to document, you know, this process or this festival, they were very welcoming. You know, they even allowed me to stay in the Village Chief's house and insisted that we follow them throughout the night into the forest, and made a lot of allowances and exceptions for for us to document the entire process. So maybe, maybe the conclusion that I would have is that, you know, there could be, have been a ton of opportunities for for great harm to have been done. You know, whether. I could have been lost at sea, or, you know, shot down in the midsum Dam, or when missing in the jungles of Kyaw, which, by the way, I also land my laden right, a lot of UX OS from from the conflict that has happened there. You know, plenty of chances for for things to have gone wrong. And I'm not waiting for something to go wrong, but I do think there has been some kind of supernatural protection or Providence at play here throughout this journey, and also a new understanding of the word risk and how sometimes the most risky, so called situations that we believe are going to put a spanner in the works may turn out to be, you know, not the most risky, because we go in with our eyes open, right? We go in with a awareness that this could be risky, and therefore we look out for trouble. And if I can contrast that to, you know, a family member of mine who remained in Singapore during the entirety of the pandemic and caught COVID twice and got hit by a truck door which flung into a face. You know that? That was all in Singapore, which was like, most people agree, is quite safe, and, you know, it's quite a good place to be in. Manage COVID Quite well, whereas I didn't get COVID even one time. I did 28 PCR tests, I didn't get like, a truck door flung into my face, and had to go to the hospital for that, probably because I was also looking out for the risk, right? I was looking out in places like Africa, in places like Latin America, in obviously, in Southeast Asia, South Asia, I had my eyes open and was scanning the horizon, whereas in Singapore, maybe using the phone and walking on the road and, you know, things like that happen. So I think risk management and things like that, is a two way street. It's about, you know, doing due diligence and making sure that you are optimizing your chances of success, but also, you know, not letting your guard down. You know, not being complacent or taking things for granted.
Host 1:37:01
I appreciate that reflection, and I appreciate the reflections and the perspectives that you shared during this conversation.
Jeshua 1:37:09
Yeah. I mean, thanks so much for for the work that you are doing. I think the stories from from the ground here in Myanmar need to be told, and I'm still a big believer that the situation is not going to be solved by complete isolation policy, right? You know, I think the World War Two and the policy of appeasement, and, you know, post that, you know, the Cold War, those things have shown us that isolationism and blanket sanctions, you know, they just push people to a corner and create more problems in the long term. I do think that, you know, now is the time for more engagement, not less, you know, for people to start coming together and not seeing themselves as like, you know, I am American, I'm Burmese, I'm Singaporean. We are all humans on this planet Earth, and there's a lot more in common with each other than different. And I do think as well that with with every challenge is an opportunity, and it's a lot more about how we want to look at things, rather than just how it appears. Sometimes I foreign
Host 1:38:30
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast. The stories and conversations we share are meant to inform, inspire and deepen our understanding of the rich tapestry of experiences that can be found across Myanmar, and as you might imagine, producing this podcast requires a great deal of time, effort and resources. So if you've gained some value from what you've just heard, we ask you to consider paying it forward. Your support can help ensure that we're able to produce and share more episodes like the one you just heard. Every donation directly fuels our ability to reach out to a more diverse range of guests, record their powerful stories and bring them to life for listeners around the world. By contributing, you're not just supporting this podcast, you're also creating opportunities for others to benefit from in hearing these conversations down the road. So if you believe in the work we're doing and want to see it continue, please visit insightmyanmar.org/donation, together, we can keep these conversations going.