Transcript: Episode #308: Fearless in Cambodia
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:17
Welcome to the Insight Myanmar podcast. Before we get into today's show, I wanted to let you know that we have a lot more written and video content on our website. If you haven't visited it yet, we invite you to take a look at www.insightmyanmar.org, in addition to complete information about all of our past episodes, there's also a variety of blogs, books and videos to check out. And you can also sign up for our regular newsletter, but for Now, enjoy what follows and remember sharing is caring.
Brad 2:08
And welcome back Today, we're going to be branching into what I think we can call a sister struggle of the Myanmar spring revolution, and that is the long standing political and before then, violent struggle that has faced Cambodia, and we are lucky enough to be joined today by Sochua Mu, who I think we can fairly describe as an exile politician and a defiant opponent of the of the current and long standing hun San regime. So before we get into all of that. Thank you very much for joining us and giving us your time. I'd like to give you a chance to introduce yourself for our audience, because I think most of them probably are not familiar with your work.
Mu Sochua 2:51
Thank you very much for having me a sister from Cambodia to all our sisters in Myanmar and brothers in Myanmar. I am Mu Sochua. I as I was introduced earlier, I am in exile, living based right now in Providence, Rhode Island, one of the smallest state in America, in New England America, I'm very far away from home. We still have to make it so that our minds are still clear to fight for democracy, for freedom, for justice, for our people. I was born and raised in Cambodia until I was 18 years old, and as you know, the Cambodia conflict started with the spread of the Vietnam War in the 1970s by 1975 the Cambodia fell into the hands of the Khmer Rouge. The Khmer Rouge are the ultra communists that committed genocide that killed over 2 million people in Cambodia, or 1/3 of the population at that time, the Khmer Rouge was backed by China. I would say at that time it started with China backed the Khmer Rouge, because the Khmer Rouge later on split and was split into two. One group went to stayed with China, and then another group went to Vietnam. I will talk about that later during the before the fall of Cambodia to the hands of the Khmer Rouge. I was 18. I graduated from high school. My parents sent me to France for a further education. Because, as you know, Cambodia was and they was colonized by France for close to 100 years. We got an independence in 1953 I was not even born yet at that time, also when I left the country, I was I left for the very first time, out away from a family that protected me, that gave me all the comfort, because I was from the middle a middle class family. We were well, very well protected. And when I had my sister and I were put on this flight to France, to Paris, it was so hard to to understand, to believe that I that was the beginning of a very, very long journey outside of Cambodia. But I knew something was happening, but I didn't know that it was an exile for 18 years, because after from 1975 to 1979 end of 1979 Cambodia was totally, totally locked out of the whole world. There was an embargo on Cambodia because of the Khin. There was nothing that no, no one knew about the inside of Cambodia. It was like the North North Korea today, and but at the same time, the Cambodians, who were already in camp outside of Cambodia. We were students. We were very few of us. We struggled very hard to get more information outside from Cambodia and later, later on, pictures of starving people of mass graves inside Cambodia came out when the Khmer Rouge that was backed by the Chinese by China fell apart. But it was not the end of the armed conflict, of misery, of bloodshed in Cambodia when the Khmer Rouge that was backed by China, fell the Cambodians that were with the Khmer Rouge went to Vietnam to ask for help from Viet, from Vietnam to save Cambodia. Sure enough, Vietnam came with the army and occupied Cambodia from 1979 and 1979 to 1989 or 1990 the Cambodia went into more armed conflict then, but there was already then. By then, from 1980 to 1989 there was a resist, resistance along this side the Cambodia high borders, because different factions, from the the groups led by the former king of Cambodia, by the Democrats, by the different groups, went to the border, to Thailand, and established their resistance group. So there was armed struggle and refugees. About a quarter 250,000, 300,000 refugees were caught in that the armed conflict. To make it short, finally, finally, the the end of the armed conflict came on to 1991 when Cambodia signed a Paris peace accord with the intervention of the outside world to save Cambodia, and so there was a peace reconciliation. There was a peace accord that was signed by 18 international countries, very, very significant treaty that allowed the UN to hold a the first elections. And it was and then to allow the refugees to come home and to end the armed conflict. However, between 1989 1980 to all the way to 1989 there were refugees from the from the refugee camps in in Thailand that were spread all over the world. That's why today we have a very big Cambodian diaspora. We are about 3 million Cambodians outside of Cambodia, including the migrant workers in of Cambodians in Thailand, in.
In in Korea, in Japan. So come back, coming back to my story after the fall of the Khmer Rouge and when there was this peace accord, I was able to go back to Cambodia. That was in 1989 I left Cambodia when I was 18 years old, so innocent. I only had high school education, and I went to America to and I got a master's degree in social work. I went to work with the refugees in Thailand for six years, and I finally got back home to Cambodia in 1989 that took about 18 years. So when I went back to Cambodia, I had, by that time I was married, I had two two small children, a two year old and a four year old, two daughters. When I went back to Cambodia, I did not recognize the Cambodia that I left. when I was 18, because the Khmer Rouge totally destroyed the society. The Khmer Rouge wanted to start a society from zero, meaning that there were anybody who had light skin, anybody who had any kind of education, anybody who wore glasses, eyeglasses were killed, were massacred, were put in the mass graves, because the Khmer Rouge wanted Cambodia starting from zero. People had to be equal. I mean, really equal to that sense, where there was no education, there was darkness, total darkness. So when I went back, it was the Cambodian people, my people. They are my people. I could not recognize my my city. I could not recognize my people, because there was this Vietnamese occupation for about 10 years. Some people already talk. We're talking in Vietnam, in Vietnamese. And then during the Vietnamese occupation, the Russians came to where the MOE, the the main foreign elements inside Cambodia. So when I went back, although the UN was already there, it was really all of us rebuilding Cambodia together. There was hardly any electricity, there was no soap, there was no drink, drinking water, and but we we struggle, and we made it. We make it happen with the help of the international community with the Paris peace accord, that was very significant. However, I would say that the Cambodian society has, I don't think it's the same. It will never be the same because of the war, because of the genocide. You see, after all these years, I'm 17 years old now. I left Cambodia when I was 18. It has the effect of genocide, of armed conflict. So I understand very much the struggle of the Myanmar people, and I feel very close. I admire the Myanmar people for the your struggle, from for freedom, for from for democracy, for for to be free. So coming back to Cambodia was like a dream came true. It's never home outside. It's never home. Home is where you were born. Home is where you learn the beauty of nature, the villages, the pagoda, your own language, your own food, you know, but in exile, you survive. If you you survive because you have to exist. But if you are just in exile, and you don't try to come back, to fight back, to come back to your own country, I think the exile with me would be even more difficult. That's when, that's why, when I went back, I jumped right in, into the reconstruction of Cambodia I was, I was in my early 30s, I believe, yeah, about 32 or something like that. And right away I identified myself with, with the women of Cambodia, who were left without education. I went looking everywhere at that time. There were still mass graves. There were still a bonus skeletons. I was looking everywhere for my parents. Never found them, never found them.
Until today, but I had to say to myself, let the past be the past. Learn from the past which is no more war, no more bloodshed, peace and reconciliation. Be free. Be a work for a Cambodia that is free, where people can be like when we were together, before the war, before genocide. So I went to into I walked around the country, I walked around the city, looking for the Cambodia that I left. But then, by then, I realized that I cannot just keep on saying I want to see the Cambodia that used to be. Then I start to realize that it has to be a Cambodia where it is, where it was at that time, after the war and the UN was there. So we were all talking about peace and reconciliation. We had the monks mobilized, and then mobilized with the women. We mobilized for peace walk all over the country and to to heal from inside. And we were able to do that. And then in 1993 there was an election that was held that was sponsored by the United Nations Cambodia about 98 I would say, even 99% of the people of Cambodia who could vote went to vote and voted for change and voted to bring the old Cambodia Back, which was the to bring the king, King Norodom si Aung back and the king's party, the Royalist party, won that election. It was a new beginning for us. At that time, I was not in politics yet. I was still with the the women's movement. I was mobilizing, organizing the urban, urban poor women, because at that time, we could only be around the big cities. We could not go inside the villages. So it was
having getting social services, held a shelter for women who were victims of domestic violence, setting up small loans, micro credit loans for women who had small live, very small, small, small, small businesses in the in the markets of this In the city and then, but it was really the first time that Cambodia started to have a civil society, have a small local organizations, women's organizations, youth organizations. We were all together, rebuilding Cambodia. We were elated with the elections as results of the election that was free, that was fair, no violence, very little violence. And we were set to go for to build democracy. And it was I was so involved with the women's movement that I was finally, I was recognized by the women. I was recognized by the political parties and the Royalist party. At the time, the Prime Minister asked me to be his advisor for Women's Affairs, which I accepted. It was in 1995 or 97 something like that. And then when it was there was another election. In 1998 I ran for the first time for a seat in Parliament, and I won, and then I became the Minister for Women, and it was the first time that a woman led this woman's ministry, because in the past, it were they couldn't find a woman qualified to run this ministry. It was an unbelievable but when I took over the ministry of women's affairs and Veterans Affairs, we I because of my background with the refugees, because of my background with social services, my my master's degree in social services, and then the networks of local organizations, the network of women's organizations, The women's ministry was very successful. We mounted a campaign against domestic violence.
Began gender based violence. We changed a proverb that's a Cambodian proverb that says, Men are gold and women are just a piece of cloth to men are gold, but. Women are precious gems. You know, because a piece of cloth, a white piece of cloth, means that if it is tainted, it is tainted forever. If a woman is a victim of domestic violence, she is not just a victim. She is ostracized. She is no longer the the woman that the society wants see. We have to change that mindset. And women who were in the sex work, women who were who were poor, who lived miserable life, they are outside the society. So when we charge, when I was in charge of the ministry, the first, the first two months, we already had this campaign to call the women as precious gems, nearly Ratana. Ratana means gems gold. And then the campaign was so successful that slowly the domestic violence law was adopted, was was drafted, was discussed, and during the that discussion, the consultation, we opened up, we I, we went everywhere as Minister, I led the whole campaign throughout the whole country, to talk about domestic violence, to talk about gender based violence. What is domestic violence? What is domestic marital rape? What is how do you define a family? Because during the war, we were all separated when we came back. Maybe we don't. We couldn't find our parents, we couldn't find the real family. So we, we had adopted families. So this, this adopted families in by law of our family and but in the adopted families, there are men who are not connected with us, therefore they took they take advantage of young women of children. And that's why in the domestic violence law, we redefine the word family after the war, family means anyone all members who live under the same roof, if there was any kind of violations of of violence inside that family, that domestic violence law can be applied can provide protection to for the victims. That is how I get went back to Cambodia, how I got involved in civil society, how I got involved in politics. That was the first my first entry, my first experience with a campaign, and my first experience in running a ministry, my first experience speaking on behalf of the women of Cambodia. It was an incredible, incredible first step for a return to a country that was my own, but the country that was so, so different, but a country that that I was put in a situation where I I had to make decisions for the women of Cambodia along along that was just the beginning of my first stage of entry into politics. And then I got into and then I left the ministry. I joined the opposition party because the coalition government was dominated by the former ruling party, the party of Mr. Hun San, who is still in power after 40 years. He's still he's still in power today, and his although his son today is the prime minister, but he Mr. Hun San, still rules Cambodia today. So because the coalition was so dominated by the party of Mr. Hun San, I left the Royalist party and I joined the opposition party, the party of workers of labors of the labor movement that was led by Mr. San Nancy, who was the finance minister, who was who also left the Royalist party to run an opposition party.
So I was with the party from nine, from 2004 until just recently, about about six months ago, I left the party to lead the Khin movement for democracy. Khwai means Cambodian, so it's a Cambodian movement for democracy founded by members of the Cambodian diaspora. The goal of the vision of the KMT, the Khmer movement for democracy, is to rebuild Cambodia for a better Cambodia, the Cambodia that is really, really, is justice, democracy, human rights, equality. Return to a Cambodia where we can apply rule of law, where we can apply International, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, where we can use our Constitution and not a Cambodia that is a dominated by one family, which is a situation today. So when the opposition became very, very successful in 2020 2013 2013 we, we won the election, but the results was when the results were declared. The real results were not declared. Mister hon San continued to hang on to power and then finally dissolved the opposition, the Cambodia national rescue party in 2017 and i i That's when I left Cambodia, again in exile, again until today and now the KMD, the Khmer movement for democracy, our mission is to unite the diaspora. As I said, we're about 3 million outside of Cambodia, mainly migrant workers in Thailand and the Myanmar people know what it the miserable, miserable life migrant workers have in Thailand. So my the KMD is to unite the people to help to speak for Cambodians who are inside Cambodia, but who cannot speak, Cambodians who are in working in Thailand, who cannot speak. And then we want to return to Cambodia with by having starting with free and fair elections, and the return for again, reconstructing Cambodia.
Brad 27:26
I mean, we certainly hope that that's, that's what's going to happen. I think throughout that description, the parallels to Myanmar and the Myanmar crisis are just so incredibly strong. This, this single, centralized, authoritarian ruling regime, the the marginalization of anyone that could be seen as educated or intelligent. And fortunately, Myanmar didn't have the same level of purges as the Khmer Rouge. But nevertheless, they the under Khin yon.
Mu Sochua 28:00
The very strong military.
Brad 28:01
Very strong military, and corruption and just the stories of the elections, just the way the government will will go after their political opponents. As soon as those political opponents become popular, it's, it's, it's horrific and and so one thing I want to ask here is with the the impact of the coup, because we discussed this previously, the impact of the coup in Myanmar on Cambodia. And I think one of the enormous differences between Myanmar and Cambodia is that Cambodia has come out of this incredibly long, incredibly violent and incredibly destructive Civil War, while Myanmar's internal conflicts have not been on that same scale, what was the reaction in Cambodia to the Myanmar coup and to the Myanmar people fighting back against their military?
Mu Sochua 28:58
We admire we admire so much, so much the students of Myanmar, the monks, the Buddhist monks, the ethnic groups, the women, the entire people of Myanmar, we realized that you have many, many ethnic groups, which we don't have. We do have indigenous communities, but they don't hold the same kind of of, what you call the power or the they are indigenous people, and they they have been assimilated with the Cambodian the khaya people for a long, long time, although they are as indigenous, their problem, the problem that they face right now is the deforestation, the land grabs in their in their area, so they are losing their their ancestral land. Am, however, however, they will never dream of having a their own land. They would never dream of taking an arm, taking up arms against the government, because the groups are so small, you see, and then they have been forced to assimilate with the prominent, predominant Cambodian population a long, long time ago, coming back to the effect of the coup in Myanmar on Cambodia, when there was we followed your many, many coups. You have so many cool in Myanmar, right? The last one that, no, the orange robe.
Brad 30:53
Saffron revolution.
Mu Sochua 30:54
Sorry, the saffron robe, because we are Buddhist as well, yeah, and many of our monks go to have educated in the temples in Myanmar, they saw the color of the saffron robe is very, very significant to us. It is it is not just respected. It is revered. And so the power of our monks in Cambodia and the monks in Myanmar are so, so totally different because our monks, because of the genocide, during the genocide, know the all the temples we have, 1000s of pagodas in temples in Cambodia were totally destroyed. They they were used as mass graves, and the monks were all defraud and left the pagoda. There was no religion whatsoever, whatsoever for five years, but the monks so, after the war, after genocide, the monks came and we reconstructed the Cambodia. Cambodia would by reconstruct, reconstructing a religion so the monk came out, were ordained again. However, because of the trauma, because of the genocide, the monks in Cambodia have never recovered their power in the society or their political power in when I was young, the monks had political power as well as religious power and influence. But now with the Hun San regime for the past 40 years, hun San there about 30,000 monks in Cambodia. In every village you have more than four or five pagodas, small or big, right? However, it is now Buddhism to us now is more going to pray, and we don't even understand what we are praying, because it's all in early or in Sanskrit. Yeah. So the and hun san is very, very aware that the he let them, he lets the monk, the the pagoda, regain their political influence in the society they would lose. Hun San would never continue. Can never hang on to power. We have had. We had a coup in 1997 we had more people uprising in Cambodia, and the monks became were part of it, and in 2013 again, when we when the opposition won, and then we were not allowed to take over power, the monks were with us. Led, led months and months of protests in the streets because of the opposition. Were was we were protecting the monks, and the monks wanted to regain their political influence in the society, and they wanted change as well. But now in Cambodia, if they Defra monks. So when we were watching the uprising in Myanmar, we were watching the saffron robe and they, they beating the killing of the monks in Myanmar, in the streets of Rangoon. We were, we felt that the monks were, were all monks. We felt that the students were us this. We were so,so close. We feel so close to people Myanmar, but at the same time, we're different because of genocide. We will we could never we again. It is really difficult now to ask people to to walk, to to gather, because they are. So we are so traumatized by the war, and even more traumatized now because of the 40 years and the Hun San and the power of the courts and the prison. And although the prison in Cambodia is not at the scale of the prison in Myanmar, where there's no torture, there's no starvation, there's no killing or shooting or the mass arrest, the massive arrest like in Myanmar, even now, arresting one person or two, two people, it totally it's enough to paralyze the society. But we keep on watching the uprising in the latest one, in 2021 we were saying, Yes, we admire the Aung San Suu Kyi. We admire your students. We admire the incredible creativity of the young people, from your pop stars to your monks to your civil servants to your regular people who came out to the streets, and every single day, you had something new that, really, the whole world was watching you. And even it is really, really incredible that ASEAN, that the world has forgotten Myanmar.
Brad 36:47
And I want to go back to that, because you, you mentioned that the prison system or the mass imprisonment in Cambodia is not quite the same as it is in Myanmar today, the killings and so on. And I know that in in Cambodia, there is no death penalty. And this, this brings up a chapter that we saw earlier on in the coup, when Cambodia had the chairmanship of ASEAN. And I believe it was, it was praxocon, was was trying to mediate with the Myanmar military. And I believe hun San himself met with Min Aung lain and tried to convince him not to execute political prisoners, which, of course, Min Aung we now will did he did execute them. And this was something that I think a lot of people found very confusing, because though, even though we don't know a lot about Cambodian history and politics in hun San we know that he's a dictator. We know that Cambodia is a repressive regime, and we didn't have a lot of optimism for Cambodia as the ASEAN chair resolving the Myanmar crisis. But this, this is something that struck us as very strange. Can you shed light on this? Why? Why was hun San trying to drag Min Aung Hlaing into some semblance of of sanity and normality?
Mu Sochua 38:14
I would say hun San was doing it for the show, for the international community, to give him the spotlight. He put on the spotlight because he Cambodia was a chair of ASEAN at the time, and hun San, being on the San wanted to seize the occasion and show to the world that he is can be at the same level of world community of world leaders, and so he went to Myanmar despite the fact that the Myanmar people were on the street with Myanmar people were being killed. The Myanmar people were we all the international community was saying no, but hun San wanted to also he went there to talk to min Aung Na, to the to the military. Who knows what, what kind of deal he made with the military by going there and then by saying that no death penalty in for in Myanmar, I think me, it was more like trying to get say to the international community that He can be trusted as a community, an international leader.
Brad 39:29
Interesting, interesting. I mean, it makes sense, even if it is a little bit, you know, cynical, but it's, it does make a lot of sense. And I want to, I want to look a little bit at the similarities here, because even when you were you were talking about your role as Minister for women's affairs, and you say you you changed the idiom, the Cambodian idiom to to women are precious gems. Even that it struck a chord with me, because, like you said in Kyi, it. It's Ratana. And that exact same word exists in Burmese as well as Yadana. Yeah, like so rise pronounce ya in in Burmese, so yatana. But it means gems. And it's, you know, it's a common name for girls. It's it, you know, you see it in a lot of different shops. It has a very strong place within Myanmar culture, Myanmar society. So just immediately I like, oh, I recognize that word from Bali. So the similarities are strong. And I believe that you've actually visited Myanmar multiple times. I think you've even met Aung San Suu Kyi.
Mu Sochua 40:38
Yes, I was at the time I because I on my experience as a women's minister, and then in my party, we were very active. The Women's wing of the party was very, very active. We conducted a lot of training for female candidates, and we want the female candidates. Really want, my experience promoting a women's voice in politics, and not just promoting, but really, really setting the goal, setting objectives, clear objectives, like, for example, for on the party list. If we if the woman is not at the number one on the top, she is number two, vice versa, or she's number three. But the list has to have a woman candidate, and not the one at the bottom, we will not accept it has to be the top 3123, she can be number three. She can be number one, number two, but she if she's number 30, that that's not it's insignificant. So we, I went to train the women of NLD, and that's when I met the Aung San Suu Kyi, and we were able, and then I went back again when I was the member of the ASEAN parliamentarians for human rights. It was to conduct a an assessment for the elections before, when NLD won again landslide, and also to look at the situation the Rohingya in Myanmar.
Brad 42:32
Absolutely. And I find that interesting that your training with them and their training with you, that this the Resistance movements or the pro democracy movements, seem to have this long standing agreement with each other and cross training and interactivity. Is there? Are you connected with other movements in in the broader sort of Southeast Asia region? Are there democracy movements, for example, in Laos or maybe Vietnam or Thailand that you've also worked with and that you are in contact with?
Mu Sochua 43:08
No, mainly Myanmar and Thailand at the time, yes, Thailand, when I was still able to to go to Thailand. You know, I am back blacklisted. I cannot go to Thailand. I was because hun San had made a request to the ASEAN countries to put the opposition members, the top leadership of the opposition in Cambodia, on the blacklist so we cannot go to certain countries in Myanmar, in ASEAN countries. I would very much like to be to go back to Thailand to do training. Yeah, we have networks with Thai women, with the Thai organizations. But it's we want to be able to be there together, training together, learning from each other, and there were some members of Parliament from NLD who came to visit us when we were still in Cambodia, when the opposition was still functioning. So we were we did a lot of shared training, not just for women, but on the issue of human rights and democracy as well.
Brad 44:25
That's incredible. And just because we are we are here, it would not be forgiven for me if I did not ask you, what was your What was your interaction like with with Don San Suu Kyi? What was your What was your impression of her? What can you tell us about that? You know, obviously she seems she's been imprisoned yet again, unfairly and and illegally, everyone's mind. So if I didn't ask you, the audience would not forgive me.
Mu Sochua 45:02
How can I say admiration respect is more than respect, you know? How can you not admire and respect and do Aung San Suu Kyi for her struggle for for the history of her family? What the sacrifices her we had a conversation. We had a whole whole hour more than once. I was very impressed, because she served as tea herself, at her home. It was at her residence. She served as tea, and we had a real conversation. I was struck also by the softness, but at the same time the toughness. Yeah, very Asian women. I don't want to say is Asian women, but it's that quality of gentle but firm and leadership that has compassion. You just can tell.
Brad 46:14
But the very important question is, what is the work that that you are able to do in and the reason I'm asking this question is because within the Myanmar conflict, we have a war ongoing, a civil war ongoing. But one thing that has consistently come up and made the Myanmar conflict stand out is the role that the national unity government has taken to actually be a government and to focus on things like government services, to focus on providing health care and education and infrastructure and justice, and the non violent, non combative element of resistance is incredibly vital, because warfare without government, civilian support, just leaves the country burning, and it achieves nothing. And you yourself are now working as as exile government and opposition government, and are working resistance to a dictatorship, without violence, without warfare. And this dimension is incredibly important, and historically, I think, overlooked, and so I would love to hear what your understanding of this is. How are you hoping to be able to affect change in this way? What is, what is the plan, or what is the hope for for you to bring about lasting change in Cambodia without the use of of violence?
Mu Sochua 47:41
We are very determined. We are certain that Cambodia will have peace, and because we will be able to go back home. And I don't think Cambodia will be like Myanmar, where there will be another war, or armed conflicts that will tear the people apart, or the country apart. Not that I wish that to happen in camp in Myanmar or anywhere else. But is this taking up more arms? Is necessity? When I heard that there is a part of NLD, there is a group that will go for arms conflict. I first we were shocked. We were not in favor. And then then the question is, So, what's the what's the solution? Do we wait for ASEAN? Do does Myanmar continue to work? Wait for ASEAN? For the international community? No and knowing the tenacity, the resilience, the pride or the history of the people of Myanmar that have suffered so much, have fought so much, this is the last, the last, I hope this is the last flight fight, the last time that you have to take up arms. And on the on the battlefields, the the sacrifices, the of the young people, the students who left home to go to to be trained and to take up arms and to win grounds. It's, it's, it's like Ukraine I compared to. It's not exactly the same, but I'm talking about the the fight of a people for your own your own nation, for your own life, or your own identity, for for to maintain, to win over an army, a dictator, I think that kind of resilience, that kind of tenacity, the whole world need to say, to make it shorter for the people of Myanmar, for the people of Ukraine, make it shorter for people in in in Palestine and Gaza, or same as the suffering of the people in Israel as well. The suffering of the people must end. Must end. What we lead need right now are leaders, the international leaders who have the courage. I think we have.
The problem is the in the world, we have leaders who have very little courage. They are so you talk about election to elections to elections that you know, it's not resolving the suffering of the people. And you look at the role of the United Nations, it's insignificant. The Secretary General of the United Nations today is just not someone who can be should be there. It needs to change if we don't have the United Nations. So what's the role of the United Nations? So coming back to the NLD, in the civilian government side of the LD, I have also full respect. We you have your health ministry, you have your social service ministry, humanitarian I think it's called, I met many of the ministers and members of Parliament for us, for the Khmer movement for democracy. We are looking at the experience of NLD, the of sorry, of Ng, the national unity government, as well as the Tibet the government, and we are learning the one thing is that it needs to unify. Unity is important. I'm saying, again, with 3 million or Cambodians outside of Cambodia, unity, first of all, unity. Stop feeling sorry for ourselves. Stop saying, hon San has all the power we can never win. Stop saying that, Oh, China is in Cambodia. Vietnam is in Cambodia. We will never be able to win the war, to win to go back to Cambodia. Stop think putting that into your mind. Stop living in fear. One thing I learned from do Aung San Suu Kyi is living in fear. I refuse to live in fear. Live beyond that. That's one thing so unity. The second is to have an administration have a call and a strong movement that can take care of the advocacy side of it, like, for example, we have to work with the Congress, the US, the new Congress. We have to work with the EU we have to work with Australia, who's doing that, not the people inside us, but in us. We are so many, if we don't go and present a common agenda to the United Nations, to to to US Congress. They they don't want to listen to so many Cambodian groups broken and divided. They want to hear one, one agenda. So we're working toward that, and then later on, is to have representatives of the Cambodian people as members of parliament inside outside of Cambodia. This is something that we learn from Tibet, and we see that you also have your members of parliament. You have representatives elected by the people of so we want to be outside 3 million we have elected representatives. Cambodian people elect them to represent us in America, in each state in America, who are elected representatives, because at the end, we want to be able to go to the United Nations and say, and go to the Paris peace accord signatories and say, We want free and fair elections. Unless we are, you are with us for free and fair elections, and work on that with between now and 2028 there will be another rigged election. There will be an extension of the regime of the dynasty. We won't accept that. Then we also want to be able to be prepared to go to the United Nations, and say the seat of Cambodia has to be occupied by representatives that are elected by the people of Cambodia, by a leader that is really elected by the people of Cambodia to free and fair elections.
Brad 55:19
And then this is, this is the important follow up. If that happens, my understanding is that so much of the assets of Cambodia are controlled by the Hun Sen regime. If you do see free and fair elections, you do see democratic change, a new government comes in, what would the position then be in Cambodia? Would you be able to rebuild the country? Or would Hun Sen and his sort of oligarchs still functionally control everything?
Mu Sochua 55:52
Oh, we have to deal with, for example, like the Myanmar movement deal with sanctions. At this moment, coordinated sanctions by the international community. We can't wait until we go being go back into Cambodia. Cambodia, like in Myanmar, is the the base for cyber crime. Close to 40% of Cambodia national budget is, is worth? Is the value of the scam?
Brad 56:25
You say four 0%?
Mu Sochua 56:26
Four 0%
Brad 56:28
Are you serious?
Mu Sochua 56:30
I'm serious. 14 billion. 14 billion from 2023 that was extracted from a cyber crime inside Cambodia, alright, think about Myanmar right now. So our movement, we work, we are very, very outspoken about that too we can. And then we are outspoken on human rights. We report to the national Cambodia is special. Cambodia has the UN special rapporteur on human rights. So we work with the UN Special Rapporteur. I think Myanmar also has a special envoy for UN envoy for Myanmar, right? So we work with the UN on in terms of giving reports, in terms of keeping the UN accountable to to this, to the Paris peace accord that was signed into the auspice of the UN and we also are very, very aware of work, very aware of the diff, the massive scale of deforestation and land grabs.
Brad 57:54
Because I do remember as well the environmental damage that was done under the Khin Rouge. This, this obsession with turning Cambodia into the world's biggest rice producer, and just destroying huge amounts of land in the process. That's awful. So from the perspective of bolstering the people. Do you think that a victory in Myanmar would accelerate the cause of democratic change in Cambodia?
Mu Sochua 58:20
I think so. I think first of all, we have to, we have to, if every member of the ASEAN community, ASEAN member state is a democratic is run by a democratic government, ASEAN will be stronger. Therefore we can, for example, in in Thailand, if the it is a opposite, it is the opposite the opposition, the Fauci forward that now is the People's Party. Want the election. Win the election. Next time you they will have a much more open, much more engaging alliance with the opposition in Cambodia. I think that's why ASEAN is important, as for each member of the ASEAN, people of ASEAN must be very active and not just let the leaders go to their summits and come back with the same old thing. I think I want to say from what I learned from the people in the Myanmar, what I learned from the Aung San Suu Kyi is that democracy is worth fighting for. Must be will win at the end. And I wish for da Aung San Suu Kyi to be released now and be the regain her position. Nation to lead a Myanmar, that the Myanmar people of different different groups can live together, work together and rebuild the Myanmar that you all want the same for Cambodia, a Cambodia that the Cambodian people want.
Host 1:00:22
Since the coup, better Burma has provided consistent humanitarian aid to vulnerable communities across Myanmar over time. However, we have also come to realize that another consequence of the coup is a severely collapsed economy. Trade and Tourism have almost entirely evaporated and local artisan communities suddenly found every opportunity of continuing livelihood closed off to them to help support those artisan communities better. Burma now brings item direct from their workshop into your home. These lovely pieces from a far corner of the world will not only light up your room or make a lovely gift for a loved one, but they'll also help dozens of artisans create sustainable businesses and livelihoods. Part of each purchase will also go towards our ongoing nonprofit mission. See these beautiful crafts, visit alokacrafts.com. That's Aloka A, L, O, K, A, Crafts, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word, alokacrafts.com of course, as is your preference, you can also consider making a donation through our normal channels. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method, Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions aiding those local communities who need it most donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement, CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person. IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries, education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies, COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission, Better Burma. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website, betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites, except credit card, you can also give via PayPal. By going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform, and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. That's Better Burma, one word, spelled B, E, T, T, E, R, B, U, R, M, A.org. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artisan communities across Myanmar, available at alokacrafts.com any purchase will not only support these artisan communities, but also our nonprofit's wider mission that's Aloka Crafts spelled A, L, O, K, A, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word. alokacrafts.com thank you so much For your kind consideration and support.