Transcript: Episode #297: A Taste of Resilience

Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.

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Host 0:14

You're about to hear a panel discussion that was recently recorded live. Regular listeners to this platform may find the dynamic of this show somewhat different than in our usual long form interviews. For one you'll of course be hearing several voices talking together in conversation rather than an interview of a single guest. Also, there may be some differences in the sound quality, as the various participants are not using the same technologies to connect virtually to the event. But perhaps most notably, unlike with our podcasts, we are not doing any extensive post production, so you may notice that the conversation has more of a free flowing, organic feel distinct from the more polished nature of our podcast interviews. We invite you to check out our website as well, where you can see the accompanying video of this panel discussion, and for those of you who may like to tune in live to our upcoming panels where you can also ask questions directly to the guests, we invite you to check out our website or any of our social media feeds to learn more about our forthcoming programming, but for now, sit back and enjoy the interesting discussion that follows. Okay, so I think we can. We can kick this off as people still continue to come. This is one of those zoom meetings where it's totally okay to eat as long as you're not eating when you're talking, but snack and eat as you as you want, because this is all about food. Cook if you want as well. Feel free to have your cameras on or off as you're comfortable. And we're going to kick it off by hearing some opening remarks from Kenneth Wong, who was not able to be here with a scheduling conflict, but he recorded some special remarks for us. So so let's, let's play those.

Kenneth Wong 2:01

The first time I saw the word khao soi in the middle of a menu in a Thai restaurant in San Francisco, I was a little bit confused. What's a Burmese dish doing in the middle of a Thai restaurant's menu? I thought, naturally I had to order it and try it out. The moment I took first sip, I recognized it as the same dish that I grew up eating in Yangon, of course, in Burmese, it's called Ono kao Soi, except in Thai restaurant it was called Khao Soi. As it turns out, the origin of the dish might have been in hidden in the midst of history, but as it turns out, that it is a very same dish that I have ate all along, it was just a variation of it. I might say it's the same, yet it's slightly different. The coconut soup curry is a little bit thicker, sweeter, and the chicken comes in the form of a drumstick, rather than chunks in the soup. And for texture, the Thai version usually has deep fried noodle bits for crunchiness, whereas in the Burmese version, usually you get a fritter to go along with your dish. The origin of the dish, many of the food historians say is actually somewhere up there in Yunnan among the Chinese Muslim communities. It seems like many of these traders, as they do their trade routes along Southeast Asia, they also recreated their famous dishes along the way. That's why it spawned different versions of onokaswe or khao soi in Laos Thailand, and Burma among other countries. The first time I visited Thailand last year, in December, I was also surprised by the pockets of Burmese communities that are springing up all over the place, because there are now many refugees and immigrants working in Thailand, and I also noticed that many of them tried to recreate the dishes that they grew up familiar eating at home in Burmese restaurants and tea shops. I wonder how Burmese food is going to be transformed and reshape as many of these immigrants and refugees recreated, recreate the dish that make them feel nostalgic and homesick, looking forward to visiting Thailand again and trying out these dishes again. So here in San Francisco, if I want to eat Burmese food, I can always go to a popular restaurant like Burma's superstar. It's one of the popular restaurants that put Burmese food on the map. As it were, it makes Burmese food popular among the hip young crowd in San Francisco, the tech crowd, the people who use social media like Instagram and Twitter. So it gives Burmese food a new reputation. It spreads Burmese food's reputation among a new crowd, a new fan base. But if you ask me whether the Burmese food that I can get at Burma superstar is authentic, it's debatable. For example, if I were to order and try Burmese tea leaf salad at Burma superstar, you get, among other things, Romaine salad and. A sunflower seed, two ingredients that Burmese housewife would never think about putting in their tea leaf salad. I would say that many purists and traditionalists would actually call it a sacrilegious thing to call it tea leaf salad, but in its own way, it tastes very good, and also 8000 miles away from Burma, some of the dishes have to be transformed and reinvented or reimagined by necessity. For example, when we make Mohinga at home here, very few of us would actually go through the trouble of making the real, slightly fermented kind of noodles that is required to make the real dish. Most of it would simply go to a Vietnamese grocery store and buy something that closely resemble the noodles that the rice noodles that we would eat with mohenga. So the taste is somewhat different, but it still captures the original taste. What's striking about the Burmese food that I found in Chiang Mai and Mao is that in terms of flavor profile and taste and texture, they closely resemble the Burmese food that I remember eating, and that's probably because the ingredients that are available to make them are available in both countries. And both countries are situated very close to each other, and besides that, also the community that demands it, the refugees and the immigrants want that kind of homely flavor that they are familiar with, the flavor that they miss, the flavor that make them feel home. So in a way, it preserves the culinary identity of the Burmese food. However, I also believe that food just like people, when it branches out into different cultures and different country has to adapt, has to adjust, has to innovate and has to reinvent itself, because things that fail to evolve tends to wither and fade away, just as immigrants that fail to integrate tends to have a much harder time succeeding in a new country. This brings me back to Ono kao soI in Burma and kao soai in Chiang Mai from the point of view of the Chinese Muslim traders in Yunnan, neither of these dishes are authentic to its original form, yet in its own unique, recognizable form, it is authentic to the Burmese and the Thai people. When a dish is recreated overseas, away from its original source, what do we really mean when we say something is authentic? And it brings to question whether we can really call something truly authentic at all, because, after all, many of the dishes that we love and cherish probably came from somewhere else, quite possibly a corruption of something that eventually becomes a new classic. Okay?

Host 7:49

So thank you very much. Kenneth Wong for the introductory remarks, and you go to Trish.

Trish 7:55

Wow, that was so beautiful. Oh my gosh, it's almost like a little history class. Okay, so hi everyone. I am Trish from Bamama. It's a little short by of me. I am based in Chiang, Mai, and I've been I'm a chef, and then I have been cooking for about 10 years, and we only recently I opened up chef table, but also I involved in a lot of food related community projects here. And yeah, like, I am so excited that Joah, yeah, Joah, like, is interested to do a panel discussion like this, which is so unique. And I think like, there's Timmy cooking, and then, yeah, incredible panelists, and we were able to share talaba recipe. So we with this program, we really aim to share, like recipes as much as possible, and then considering the situation back home. And then I've always wanted to restore our recipes, like in a proper archive or book. And then what better way to do it when all of us, yeah, share our indigenous recipes or, like, our family recipes, and then, yeah, I think this is such I'm looking forward to all the stories.

Host 9:23

Thank you, and I'll give an introduction myself before we hear from the panelists. There are so many different stories and branches that we can go through with food and with Burmese food, and we're going to hear about this diversity when we hear from our panels, and I would like to talk about a relationship that I have with Burmese food that perhaps is might be different than some of the stories we hear from our panelists, because my real introduction to authentic Burmese cooking was at the Buddhist monastery. I. Came into Myanmar, my interest was in Buddhism and meditation. And outside of the restaurant, where I had real home cooking was at the monastery, and it was also my introduction, not just to food and the types of food, but the relationship that food has to culture. For one thing, when you're at a monastery or meditation center, food is really the only sense pleasure you have at that time when you're doing intensive meditation. So food takes on a much greater importance in the mind and the senses also, of course, this is where I came to see the role of generosity and giving it play, and to see the extraordinary generosity that you would see at a monastery of many different people coming from many different backgrounds, and giving freshly cooked meals or or or cooking oil or rice or or other things. And to see this in action, this giving, and it was also where I came to see that the monastery, much like the Burmese home, there was always enough food to share with whoever came by, even if they weren't expecting you, even even if you had just popped in, there was always enough food for everyone, which would would really amaze me that this was this freshly cooked food was always on hand. It was also at the monastery where I came to see the life cycle of food, where you would watch the food be donated and spending enough days there you would see how first it would go to the senior monks, and then it would go to the junior monks, and then the nuns and the novices, then the lay yogis and the meditators, then the lay supporters, then the workers, then it would go to the dogs and the cats and the crows, and eventually it would go to the insects. So I would see this whole life cycle of food. And I would watch the expected, you know, the monks would eat, but then the novices would be waiting, and then the lay people, and then you'd see the dogs and the cats waiting eagerly outside, because it was always the same time when this would happen. And I would remember going to monasteries where you'd have the gong and everyone would line up, you know, the men, the women, the monks, the nuns, the workers and even the dogs and the cats would start to become aware that something that the same thing would happen at every time, and they would howl when the gong would be rung for everyone to assemble, because they knew they were getting their meal as well. It was also where I learned about the the act of giving and receiving it was where I as I wanted to learn about the way that Buddhism was practiced and followed, and what a monk was. Because I had never really seen one in my society, I came to understand that you you can't just say, you know, hey, hey, Bonte, here's some food. Go and take this or, Oh, help help yourself to that. Please help yourself. There was this whole protocol of how you had to to to present an offer. And at first I found myself a little bit unsure about it seemed like kind of religious protocol that I was, I was I was a bit averse to, and I had a European friend who was a monk who was staying with me, and I had to go work all day, and he was staying in my my condo, and I just wanted to tell him, just help yourself to any food you have in my refrigerator, like a good friend. Just help yourself to anything. And and it was kind of annoying to me that he couldn't just take it, that there had to be this kind of protocol. And eventually I worked out with my neighbors that they would come to my condo and physically offer the food. And then a light clicked on, and I realized that my friend had renounced from the world. And part of renouncing was that he couldn't just help himself, that there was a reciprocal relationship, where the only way he could get nourishment was for someone to physically and I realized this act of giving, I have a ball and look for something to give. I have a ball in my hand, this act of giving that I am, I'm holding this and I'm letting it go and giving it to a monk who's then accepting it. And that taught me this deeper lesson about renunciation and Buddhism and Sangha through realizing that that it wasn't just a a religious ceremony that was kind of this, this kind of annoying protocol I had to follow. It was actually a mental volition on both sides of an act of giving and letting go, and an act of of receiving whatever was offered and taking it and not just help yourself to whatever's in my fridge, the kind of American way. So, so this was all my learning experience with food that I want to share in this panel, and also to share how when I would come to eat, and you have all the dishes laid out, I would often be instructed by my Burmese friends at monasteries how I was eating incorrectly, because they would talk about how well you have this delicate balance of of different flavors and temperatures and textures, where you have a little bit of this soup, but then a little bit of this, this kind of crunchy taste, but then you you want to have this little bit of curry, but then you balance that curry with with this little pickle. And it. It. I never learned it. It was too complicated for me to ever become a master of but it made me appreciate the the complexity of of what was being offered, and the the mindset of how, how you ate it, rather than just I this. I eat this, I this and and learning how they all come together. So this is, this is what I want to share about my relationship with Burmese food, one that that was at the end of what I was saying. In any case, with that, I wanted to go to Timothy and to welcome our live cook and have you introduce something about yourself.

Trish 15:35

Timmy, do you want to talk a little bit about what you're cooking? And like the recipes and whatnot, right? So

Timothy 15:45

I'll be cooking a Karen dish, again, dish one called dalapo. And I chose that dish because it is a very versatile dish that my mom used to cook at home and but first of all, my name is Tim, and I am I'm not a chef. I haven't been cooking for 10 years like Trish has.

Trish 16:22

I us, you're an incredible cook.

Timothy 16:25

Thank you. I am. I am a cook. Most of what I know about cooking, I learned from my mom, and most recently, Trish and and there is something that my mom always saying about food. She said, if you know how to eat, you know how to cook. So ever since I was a child, my mom, she's a she's a great cook, but there is one dish that I just do not like, and it's fish, because, because my mom is from from the Delta region. She's Karen from the Delta and my my a lot of my uncles work in the fish business, and usually what happens is we get loads and loads of fish. And so that would mean months of eating just fish and something else once in a while. But so what would happen when I don't like a dish is my mom just tells me, go to the kitchen, find whatever, cook what you want. So that is how I mostly learn how to cook. And oh, great, you've got your ingredients. To be fair, I love fish now, alright, so today I will be cooking dalapa. It's a it's a very versatile soup based dish. I would say the the main ingredient is rice. Ironically, um, although today we will be making bamboo shoot talapo, I would, I don't know. I refuse to call bamboo shoot as the main ingredient, but rather the rice itself that makes the soup, that that texture, that that fragrance, and all of that. And and I was and my mom would use any ingredient, not just bamboo shoot. She would use any kind of vegetable she gets, any kind of herb she gets. And so usually, in a form, it is like a quick fix, like if she needs something like a palette plant, she would just quickly make it, because it's a very light, fluffy, peppery, and it can also be a little sour if it needs to. And it's that kind of versatile dish. So that's what I'll be making. And I have all these ingredients laid out, some bamboo shoot here.

Trish 19:01

Thank you, Timmy. I wonder like, how many people in the audience are also cooking as well. But yeah, if you like, make the dish and follows timmy's recipe, and maybe it would be great to share it on like your Instagram page or like tag us and then whatnot. Another quick, like, little info to Timothy's Taliban just in general. It's the Karen like state, right? It's a it's been like worn, like war struck for many years, and then a lot of people have been displaced or they have to, you know, it's a survival, it's, it's a Bible out there. And then they have to find, like, whatever ingredients that's available to them in the jungle, to be, you know, to do sustenance, yeah, it's a soup of sustenance, I think. And then whatever. That's available, which in that area is bamboo shoots, and predominantly bamboo shoots. So that's how it ended up becoming such a star of the dish. But usually when I like I love the dish. I love this dish because I'm old. I also cook, like timiso, a little bit, whatever, leftover veggies bottom shelf in the fridge. I was just like, throw it in. But like, it's one of those, like classical dish that you can kind of like, wing it, whereas a lot of like Burmese, like national dishes, like, if you don't follow rules and regulation, it's almost like death, and all the aunties will be like staking you for it. So this is, like one of the the I call it like chill soup, literally, yeah. Thank you, Timmy for sharing. That was beautiful.

Host 20:55

Yeah.

Trish 20:56

I think we are waiting a little bit on nandar. But I think I would like to ask to two of our panelists lean way into how like food, because we are part of the diaspora community now, right? And things that we cannot go home. I think for me, I would recreate those memories. And the easiest way for me to remember very significant memories, whenever I miss home or like feeling nostalgic, I would cook that specific dish in memories of my grandma, in memories of my mom or aunties, and then, yeah, I think food and also being delusional in my head, would combine together to create those beautiful moments. And then with my community tables, or like my Chef's Table, or whenever I have, like, Timmy and all the Bangkok people over, I would just cook that and then sort of spread that food and love. And I want to ask that to two of our panelists, gote and also Matin about this, that how since, yeah, since you since, since the coup that you've been able to also use food as a way of memories and also for therapy as well, because it's so healing for me. Yeah, whoever can start fine.

Thin Lei Win 22:39

I was waiting to see if gota was going to do it. But okay, I think the first thing I should say is that it's, you know, nearly it's actually two in the morning in Europe. So I apologize in advance if I'm not being very lucid. But I'm also going to go to bed very, very hungry after listening to all of you, you know, talk about all the amazing food, all the experiences that you've had and and seeing, you know, fish being fought like literally live. But it is, it is great. Thanks, you know, Trish and Joe for doing this and asking me to be a part of it, and just to also talk about the eating of the different dishes there, just very briefly, that is an ongoing battle, almost like in my household with me and my husband, because I've cooked multiple different dishes and he'll take like half of it in one go, and I'm like, no, no, that's not how it works when we eat in Forever, like you take, like, one or two spoonfuls, you mix it all, and then you eat it. It's like, but, yeah, but there's only two of us, so I'll get off of it. I'm like, No, that is not how it will so there are definitely rules. Or maybe I'm, you know, being very, very pedantic about about it, but I do think Burmese food is one of those where you have to eat tidbits, all of it, you know, because, because, you know, they these flavors that we want to put together in the dish, right? The the normal, the sweets, you know, salty, sour, bitter. What's the thing? There's five flavors that we try and put it in all the Burmese dishes. And I think that the that flavor, to get that balance, you have to have a little bit of everything. But anyway, going back to what Trish has asked, so there's, there's two, two things, two dishes that I go back to time and again whenever I'm feeling down or when I'm feeling homesick or family sick, or whatever you want to to call it. One is La petto, which is obviously the pickled tea leaf salad for those who. Don't speak for me. It's just it is one of the first, okay, this is going to sound terrible, but it's also one of the first dishes that I learned how to make, because there's no cooking involved. When I went abroad to study, and I was living on my own, and you know, I wasn't very good at cooking, partly because I grew up in a household with such great food and so much feeding I never really learned. So, you know, le pet. You don't need any cooking. You put the lepet in. You put the agioso, which is that, you know, the fried nuts, you know. And I normally put garlic, then we sliced garlic tomatoes. And if I have cabbage, I put cabbage you've got a splash of, you know, sunflower oil, a dash of fish sauce, squeeze of lime juice, some chili, fresh chili, and that's it. You have a complete meal, and you just eat it with rice. You can have it as dessert. You can have breakfast, dinner, lunch, anytime. So that's like my go to and in fact, you know when, literally, soon after the coup happened, and I wanted to make lap, though, because I was just so upset. And I discovered that my agioso, which is the mix, you know, fried nuts that goes with the LE pet, the pickled tea leaves, they've turned bad. I don't know how you say this in English, like CG Donne, which is when you've stored it for so long, it had sort of turned slightly accurate smell. I just, you know, I tried to make, I realized that it had turned bad, but I still try to make the salad, and of course, it was, you know, inedible. I birthed into tears, and and, and I wrote about it, actually, me, I'm a journalist, right? I'm a writer. So I actually wrote an article about how even your comfort food is no longer a place for refuge. It's, it's, it just feels like yet another thing taken away, you know, from you. But the other dish that I make whenever I'm, yeah, I'm homesick, is sijay, which is, I think, translated as garlic oil noodles. And, you know, it's weird, because DJ khao soi it, it's, it definitely has Chinese influence, right? It's noodles, it, and they used to be this shop in BuJo market by run by this guy called Jui, the best CJ, course to ever, Beda suje, which is, you know, with duck. And, you know, every time we go to budget market, because my mom's friend has a shop there, we'd always order. But the main thing is, my grandfather used to have an office in yejo, in Yangon, and every time I go and visit him, he would ask me, Do you want some fijet custod? And I would say, yes. And the older I get, the number of bowls that I want to eat increase. So I started with, like a little bit, and then a whole bowl, and then two bowls, and I finally learned how to make it during covid 19 lockdown, it's so easy I never had no idea why I didn't learn to make it before, but I finally did, and every time I eat either of those, makes me feel slightly less ruthless, makes me feel more connected.

Trish 28:53

Oh, yeah, we have those very, very nostalgic moments, attachments to like, very specific food, especially like childhood memories, food that are so powerful that you always like want to carry with you. So thank you for sharing that. That was sija casue and then, yeah, thank you. Well, Ko Htet. Do you want to take over. Do you have any vegans?

Htet Khine Soe 29:29

So I came from boundary, is the western part of Baku soda. And then I when I was 13, I moved to Rango, and then I missed my my native town food. And at that place, you know that most of the people eat in a break for the breakfast and also less dinner. So they always eat the. Tofu, though, to is tofu salad. So it's different from the rango. It's very different. So tofu may bind a bean. So, so I think that's in the pink pound. I little bit different from the the pound. And also, you know, so, so I, I miss a lot. So that's how you know. So when, when I got married and I didn't stay at my my parents home, so my my mom, she always make the Toku sled. I every weekend I visit my parents house, and they, make the tokus let so that's the one thing i i miss a lot about that, that food. So also a lot of my friend they they visit to my native town together with B so at the for the very fast I eat dogudo and also lash eato. Then dinner. So they asked me, Why you eat a lot every time, you know, but I miss a lot. So also, I'm lucky, you know. So after the coup, and also the end of the 2021 i i moved to mess up at the mass of, you know, one of my my friend, they opened the tokuto shop in here is, I'm very lucky. And so another one is the I miss a lot. So with so people who are from the mess hall is they are very lucky for the pumice food, you know. So you hear a lot of restaurant and the they have a Burmese food. So the many kind of Le Patos, I missed one one. Lopeto is the fujito. Pujito means that that crown grandfather, grandfather slept right like this. So maybe Trish can explain about that. I'm I'm used to talk about the politic. I know the lot of politics, but I don't know about the ingredient.

Trish 32:16

And no, can you tell me a little bit about like, why is it called a poet, though, have a look.

Htet Khine Soe 32:23

I don't know about that, but they do not put how to say vegetable and make vegetable, make the tomato and also cabbage and like that. The teachers only put Lape a tea leaf, and also they put beans. And also fry shrimp, just a wine leather, we just put it No, not select just how to say, I don't know.

Trish 32:54

Yeah, I remember that because, like, my vivid memory of that was just like eating at Bagan, right? And then they give you on a tea shop on the side roadside. And then they put, like, just little little bits of it. This was pre covid, so everyone was sharing spoons. And then you just have, like, you just, like, dip in, like, a little bit of sesame you can dip in, like, a little bit of tomatoes. And then the LA pet and the show zone, but then your your mouth is a salad bowl, and then you're just mixing it in your mouth, and then combining it only in your mouth, because you're just like, and then that's, that was the most fun memory for me as a child, because, yeah, I was just like, it's not about flavors. It's just so fun. Yeah, what a name, though, I didn't know. Actually, it's called, yeah, like another thing with like, like you said, Kota that tofu, though, from bago, right? It's very unique and very specific. I've only heard like stories from my mom. So for those of you who are don't know, who've never been to Burma, is that Myanmar is huge, and it's so hard to travel from like, one city to another because of like restrictions or like there's a lot of like taboos in like traveling, especially as a woman, so we don't really like me special, especially don't didn't get a chance to explore the food as much as the local so like the the amount of like diversity and different ways of making tofu, or like tofu salad even lopeto, it's made differently depending On the regions that you go so in my region or Yangon, but then, because my parents have influences of what am I called, like dalao, and also La poda, which is like the EPIC Center near the E already dying, but he already region which has a lot of. Pea powder. They produce chickpea powder. So like we just put chickpea powder inside lapto, right? And then only when I come to Bangkok, I realized that people were shook by that. And then when I was living at a safe hub, people were making so many different kinds of lopeto that they grew up with. And then that was kind of like mind, um, mind explosion, exploding for me. And then they were most shook about me putting chickpea powder inside the lopeto to make it so what happens is that if you mix chickpea powder, chickpea powder is a thickener. Let's just say that we add that in our khao soi that Kenneth Wong was talking about to just thicken it. So if anyone out there wants to make lapato, or like any type of salad that you want to make it a little bit thicker consistency and put it in your salad dressing, and then mix it in, and then it's just makes it like, super umami as well and rich. So, yeah, this is Wow. It's so it's so cool to find out like different people and what their childhood food are like. But I know like, it's not like related to, like, Burmese food, but also like, what? What does like? What about you? Joah, like, what kind of like childhood food memories that like you want to share about even though it's not like Burmese related, I'm sure it's,

Host 36:33

I could tell one of my Chinese, one of one of my childhood food loves that actually has a strange Burmese connection, and that's that when I was a kid, there was this imported cheese that that that came from Norway. I don't know the Norwegian name, but I would always just call it Norwegian cheese. And it was always what we had. It was hard, it's hard to find in America and and it's always a treat when we do and living in Burma for so long, people would come to visit and would often say, Can I bring anything from, you know, from where I'm coming from? And we would, you know, it could kind of think like, oh, you know, maybe I need this or that. And I had a friend from Sweden coming who became a nun in Burma, and I said, you know, this is kind of crazy, but it just occurred to me, do you happen to know this kind of cheese? And she was able to trace what I was referring to, and she brought this cheese to to Burma and and I hadn't had it for years and years at that point, I never had in the tropics, and it it brought back childhood as you know, famously Marcel Proust talks about, he talks about a certain who's a French author in the 18th century. He talks about this, this sweet cake that he had as a child, and then he didn't have it for many, many years. And when he has it as an adult, he tastes it, and all the memories of childhood come flooding back. It's one of the most famous excerpts of French literature as Proust describing this, this childhood memory that was kind of unadulterated and and actually, I've just been handed a Norwegian cheese in my house. Just been given that so so I was unprepared for the memories that would come flooding. And all I can think of was this famous passage from Marcel Proust eating this cake that he hadn't had since he was a childhood that just unlocked all of these childhood memories that he was unprepared for by by having this taste and and so. So it's interesting you ask that question, because this Norwegian cheese is is one of those, those childhood, those very unique childhood memories where it was not an everyday occurrence. I would have this. It was hard to find, and I'll never forget the moment of having that in Burma. It was so bizarre to to be so far away in such a different climate with such different food, and to have this thing. And I think she brought like, two, two blocks of, like, half a kilo, and, you know, I just, like, treasured that, and just just had it, you know, every, every, every taste was just something that I, I just, I it was not just a culinary experience. It was kind of a a poetic reflection of of what these tastes were recalling. So, so, so that's, that's my food, my food memory to share

Trish 39:30

how weird that like, like, yeah, Burma has, like, a lot of interesting products that you'll never find, especially cigarettes too, like, the stuff that you can't find, like, yeah, when I used to be a smoker, and then the the number of different brands that different cigarette brands is available there, it's insane. Um, to me, do you want to what process are you in? Can you through not that I'm investigating? And I know you're doing a good job.

Timothy 40:02

Sure. Yes, I'm not. I'm not slacking off. I've been cooking, alright. So I have now put everything in a boil, the first step in the recipe that we have shared on the websites. So I can show you a little bit my kitchen looks a bit of a mess, but anyway, right? So I have bamboo shoots fermented fish paste. I have some grilled fish left over from last night. It's not really my mom's cooking. If we don't use the leftover and I decided to add a little bit of I went off the book. I'm sorry I decided to add a little bit of dried shrimp powder, because I think I feel like the fish is not enough, and I have onions in there. And what I'm waiting for now is I soaked the rice like about 45 minutes ago, and it should it is pretty soft now, so I'm going to have to start pounding in a bit. But one thing that I was telling Trish a while ago was that I don't have a lot of things at home. I don't actually have a Mora, so I'm going to have to find a way to pound this. And I was asking my mom, and she said, just put it on your chopping block and, like, try to chop it or something. And that could probably work. Um, next step, I have prepared some dill, and this is Basil, and this is Burmese basil, that you can either use Thai basil or Burmese basil, anything that works. These are any vegetable actually is kind of optional, like my mom. I was asking my mom, and she said, just put anything that smells nice. So it can be very subjective as well. So that's what I'm going to be doing in a bit. I'm waiting for the bamboo shoots to soften up a bit. It is. It has been boiled before, but it needs to soften up.

Trish 42:20

Wow, thank you. Oh, my God, I'm hungry. Yeah, I think as a as, I mean, I identify as, like a man, like the predominant tribe, right? But then I'm also, like mixed, like Sean, so, like, I've never really been ex, like the central, like capital city people, they're not really exposed to a lot of indigenous food. I hate using the word sometimes, but then, like, it's just Karen food, or, like, ethnic food. And I've never had, like, a good talabo in my life, and so maybe when I come to Bangkok to me, you can cook for me. That's your mom's recipe. Because you've been raving about your mom's recipe like crazy.

Timothy 43:13

Yes. Lisa asked, What kind of pepper do you use? White or black? So for this recipe, I'm actually using a mix of both, but usually my mom uses black pepper only because that really helps this dish. Brings out the best. But I think I could also use a little bit of that white pepper I want. I want that white pepper flavor as well. So I'm using a mix of both, but you can stick to whatever you want you have. This is, I think that's okay. I don't know. Ask Tricia,

Trish 43:49

Whatever that's available. That's the beauty of this suit, whatever that's available. I think that should be called, like, a second date, whatever that's available. Soup. Yeah, cool. Okay. Joah, do you want to move on to a second question that we have for maybe matin? Sure, sure.

Host 44:09

I have a question for matin. I would like to ask her as and I would like to preface this question by saying that, again, food has many stories. Food has much relevance, and there's many directions we can go, and we've been up to this point looking a bit at the personal relations that we have with food and what it means to us in a personal way. And this question is moving not beyond the personal, but but to to to also encompass what food means when we're looking kind of from a from a from the from a higher view from the sky, looking down at a bigger scope. So the question I would like to ask Martin is, your reporting has often illuminated the overlooked intersections between policy and food security, and considering Myanmar's turbulent history, we have from colonial rule through various military regimes. 1000s transitional period towards democracy and the recent post coup challenges. I'm wondering if you can elaborate on the how you've seen the shifts in governance, how these have affected farmers livelihood and the broader population's food consumption patterns, and more specifically, how you've seen these political changes impacted the agricultural sectors, resilience and the country's food culture, ultimately shaping the way that Myanmar, Myanmar's people, think about and consume food. So I know this is a very wide open question, so take it wherever you want with your life and reporting and experience. Sure.

Thin Lei Win 45:39

Thanks. How much time do we have? Half a day, a day, 48 hours. Because I can go for hours talking about this thing, but I'll try and take it, you know, not more than five minutes. Um, let's start with the a personal reflection. Since you know we're going from sort of personal to slightly macro view. So it was almost exactly eight years ago that I had this sort of like light bulb moment. And that happened when I was interviewing the country director of the World Food Program in Myanmar. Now World Food Program WFP is a UN agency that provides food assistance, right? And up until then, I've been writing about hunger and malnutrition in Southeast Asia for for many years. By then, probably, yeah, seven, eight years by then, already, but it was mainly in the context of disasters and conflicts and as a part of a wider, you know, coverage around humanitarian issues. But what was really fascinating about that conversation, and why it, you know, why it was the light bulb moment, was the fact that, you know, we were having this discussion, and I was like, hang on, we are a rice surplus country, and we export to and bean. And he's like, yes, but you are also the third most malnourished country in Southeast Asia at that point in time that was in, you know, like I said, 2016 and and, you know, and I was like, how, how is, you know, what? You know? Why is this? Because I think a lot of the time we look at Myanmar and, you know, we see the poverty. We see the hunger. It's very apparent, whether you live in Yangon or you live in downji or in a village in central dry zone, or get chin right. But also we, yeah, you know, we have, we're a food surplus country. And he was talking about the fact that there are a few reasons for it. One is an issue of access. So for example, places like chin or Kachin where you don't have roads, or the roads are bad, and that means the food, the produce, it just takes too much longer to get to anywhere, or cannot get to places where they should. So when infrastructure is bad or unavailable, or sometimes it's because of government policy, like with the Rohingya, when their movements, you know where the movements are restricted, or there's insecurity conflict, and you cannot go so there is food, but you can't get to them easily. Another issue is affordability, which means food's available, but it's too expensive, and again, a lot of it might be, you know, because if the infrastructure costs are high, it's because people are not being paid a living wage, right? And there are other reasons why we have this persistent hunger and malnutrition in Myanmar, landlessness, lack of job opportunity, but toil, but agricultural practices. But essentially, what I personally took away from it is that hunger and malnutrition, to a very large extent, is the political failure, right? It a result of decades of government neglect their policies and in some cases, outright persecution. And that really helped me to see food on a systematic level, that it's not just, you know, like we talk about, okay, people are poor. Why are they poor? It's availability is not an issue. Now, I know that we're a nation obsessed with rice, right? And Tim, I know you'd say even the Taliban, you know, rice is the main ingredient. We don't say hello, right? We ask each other to miss Avila. Have you had rice? But you know what? It's really interesting that experts that I've interviewed said that this wasn't always the case, that diets used to be seasonal, actually quite diverse and much more healthy, and this whole obsession with rice was, you know, a result of. This rice centric policy that began in the 1960s during the socialist era, where the government, you know, really pushed farmers to grow rice, gave loans, you know, set up infrastructure, provided services, and it was a centrally planned economy as well. And you know, the successive I guess dictators, or leaders, whatever you want to call them, wanted to recapture this glory of Myanmar Burma at one point, being the rice basket of Southeast Asia, right? And so they didn't care whether this was suitable, whether this was necessary. What you know, kind of that you know, where investments would need it. They just really pushed it by around 2017 2018 the data I saw show that rice, petty fields, accounted for at least a third of cultivated area and nearly two thirds of people's diet. I mean, I love rice. In fact, I have a nickname called PBR, which means powered by rice. But rice in itself is actually not very nutritious, and the whole idea is to have a diverse diet, right? Um, but people ask everybody, they would, they they would focus on eating the rice, because that mean empty calories. Part of it is cost. Part of it is, again, access, what's easy, what you can get right? If you have a hard day of work ahead of you, you're just going to have a massive amount of rice and whatever else that you can afford. Now, I was interviewing government officials just before covid In 2019 who said that they were planning to diversify the crop and the diet, because they are worried about high levels of malnutrition and hunger, right? Because some of the impacts can be intergenerational. Now the problem at that time, and I'm sure it hasn't actually really changed very much, was that farmers were reluctant to grow other crops, because the only way they can get loans from that was to grow rice. Now, combine all of that with the arrival of fast food and the lack of food safety. And I'm not talking just about street food, but imports, right? They were so you know, there's a lack of a diversified diet fast food, lack of food safety also really having terrible impacts on people's health over the last couple of, you know, I would say couple of decades. So, for example, a lot of households, particularly poor households in Myanmar, will rely on cheap, imported cooking oil. We have no idea of the provenance of it or the quality of it. You know, whether it's been tested.

People were consuming a lot of sugary drinks, salty snacks, instant noodles, because, again, that's what they could afford, right? Unfortunately, the situation has really worsened, obviously, since February 2021, now the latest UN data that nearly one in four people now need food aid. Not only that, the concern is that poverty and hunger in two of the food baskets, or the agricultural Heartlands, which is in the dry zone in central Myanmar and the ERD Delta, are increasing, and that's a real worry, because if the farmers can't grow through even to feed themselves, the repercussions right will be felt nationwide, and there's insecurity and all of that now we haven't even touched on issues around climate, so things like rise in temperature, drought and floods that are already affecting some of the farmers in Myanmar. There's so much more that can that I can say that would be really worrying and and depressing, but I want to touch very, very briefly for the next few seconds, on the other side of the coin, which is that there's so much rich culinary traditions and amazing producers all across Myanmar, right? We've already heard from Timmy. We've already heard from Trish, you know, go Ted, about all the different stuff. I mean, when I was traveling with my friend Kelly for the kite tails all over the country. And we were doing this in 2016 and 2017 and a bit also in 2018 2019 we were just blown away by the food that we got across the country, you know, from the Naga region to loiko, from palam to indoor G Lake, from meowoo to Dewey, you know, like, so, for example, when we're in Naga region that some of the local dishes, a lot of the local dishes, in fact, didn't use any oil because it was not part of the tradition. There was these really delicious, you know, spicy, pounded stuff that they use the you and you also have these things that Naga peppers that were really special, that almost the knowledge is the Sean peppers. And when a local was describing the Naga peppers to us, they said they dance on your tongue, and they do, you know, that's the sensation that you get when you cope with Naga peppers. You know, you and I remember. This amazing house warming feast that we had in a village in Kyi, or this like super fresh seafood at vindayi, the vegetables and the fruits that we get in Shan but because, again, the infrastructure is so bad because the systems weren't set up, not everybody in Myanmar, get to enjoy or understand these traditions, right? And I think it's so important to preserve these recipes, these traditions, Trish, so it's amazing what you're doing, because they're culinary heritage, but also because a lot of them are just so much better, or else and resilient. Sorry, went on a bit of attention. That's amazing. Thank you.

Trish 55:45

Incredible. Oh my gosh.

Host 55:49

Like a dozen questions going up in my mind.

Trish 55:52

Yeah, I was like, Wait, where do I start? Wow, that's incredible. And I can relate to what you were talking about, like food insecurity. And I can touch on that a little bit about food evolution, because fish sauce is something that we've been you know, we were born out of fish sauce. Pretty much. We put fish sauce in everything. And I went to a smokehouse and also a fish sauce farm. And the guy was talking about this was, this was 10 years no, this was eight years ago. And then he says that in 10 years, the type of fish that was available back then, the they were, they fermenting anchovy. So we have, like those Burmese anchovy that we ferment will start changing because from overfishing, from Yeah, like, the yield are the are nothing and yeah, like so because the different types of Fish use and the different climate as well, and it start affecting the produce. So even I don't even know like what, what happens now if we cannot find like fish to ferment, because fermenting fish is not just like consuming one slap of like, fish, right? You have to ferment, like a large batch. So you have to catch a lot of fish, and then, yes, it's go through. It goes through, like a process of rotting the fish. So some people might ask, like, Oh, can we just, like, you know, ferment any type of fish? Yes, but the end results would differ, um, and the traditions, like, even, like the Mohinga, which is uh, pre, like, mainly affected, uh, based on the type of fish sauce that you use. So, yeah, like, it's, it's food evolution, and then how it's connected to the taste and where it's going now and then even now, like in Chiang Mai, you know, like we, we are seeing a culture shift, even though, like, like kind of similar to what Cannon says, even though that we, we like to cling on to our culture and heritage and like indigenous like produce, but we still have to find a way to adapt. And, yeah, so in terms of like, authenticity too, like, there is no such thing as authenticity anymore, but I think, yeah, going back to like, what Matin says, it was just like, so, mind blowing. So thank you for that. Sorry. I also went on a tangent.

Timothy 58:45

I just found it quite funny that you started talking about rice and and I was thinking that this is probably the only problem where you see someone mince rice, but I have minced my right minced, but I'm supposed to crush it. But anyway, it was successful.

Trish 59:03

Well done. Well done, yes, this is the part where, usually, when you do stuff like that, your grandma would be beat you.

Timothy 59:15

We don't talk about childhood traumas, yeah, but well

Trish 59:21

Well done. Well done. What a great adaption. Yeah, okay, so sorry. I can I just quickly ask someone to ask? Oh, okay, so matin, already answered, yeah. Okay, cool. I have a question for for go got because what Matin tapped into, like different sectors of like, the effects like food conditions and agriculture and whatnot, right? And food insecurity. So I. Um Kota works at footnote, bomb mess out, and he works with he is almost like an expert in dealing with food insecurities. So tell me a little bit about for those of you who have never been to miss out, it's a completely different country, even though it's just a city that's part of Thailand. But they have their way of running things. They have their own, like, government systems, almost like police, like system. And, yeah, when I went there, right? Like it was the way they organized the produce. And I mean, the way, actually, the way they treat Burmese people over there is incredibly disheartening and racist and very stereotypical. But the it puts being Burmese and messat is a target. So for quartet to run one of the biggest food donation program by himself and as part of food funa bomb mesaud, and then do that regularly to feed the displays the refugees, and then cook for them like That's insane. So can you tell me a little bit about the challenges that you face in Massad and like what you do in like how things are run and mess out for your project, and how'd you get into it?

Htet Khine Soe 1:01:33

So a lot.

Trish 1:01:37

It's okay. You could take your time.

Htet Khine Soe 1:01:40

So myself, and there's a lot of families people here. So this more the population is more more than time, time population, families population is more more than time population. Because, you know, before the coup, there are a lot of migrant worker. Also, you know that 9088, people uprising after the they moved to here. And also the Muslim people, you know, Muslim because of the operation, they came here, and they work here. So after the coup, a lot of people from the oven. They came to me so to escape from the military dictatorship. So me too. So there's a lot of people, and also the we have this many problem with the mentally and also the financial problem and also security so so as Tris mentioned about the Burmese people, if you are Burmese, you are targeted by the police, and also the time races, some time raises so police, they always find That honestly, we are going to we are not the legal. So a lot of people are not, not the legal, legal. So that's why they try to arrest us. And as many from the BI is the big, big corruption here, and also that this the time bomber border. So that's why there are a lot of better and a lot of what, and the current side, so there's a lot of refugee and on the borderline, and also the other at the farmer side, there's a lot of refugee too. So So first, you know that I do down the 14. I was working with the tunable Django, so also with the Pan Pan community, and we were together with them, and we give the food every Friday evening. So for the display person, also people who are very poor, we go and give the food. So that's the idea. Go to here. So and also the here, there's a lot of people who have no food and also no job, and they are refugee, and also be a migrant, and also people who came after the coup, they have a many problem here. So that's why we think, we think that we should make a full noble mess up here, so that that's a difficult the name is too, you know, full no bones. So right now, you know a lot of lot of resistance crew, and also a lot of revolutionary group. They are making war. So to cap peace, I know that, but the name is full no ball, so it's some. And think that, Oh, these kind of, you know, we, they are against acts. They said that just food, not bone so, but we have to explain a lot about that. And but here, some of them, they, they understand about us. And so every, every week, we go and give the food to the How to say the village, and near the borderline, near the river, the river called town in so the other time River, there's a lot of migrant worker and all that. There's a lot of, obviously, it's a migrant, just migrant, and also IDPs. So they stay the at the village, the village are the No, honestly. How can I see that? So that's not the legal village, or some somewhat, please translate for me. Now, judo,

Trish 1:05:57

These are, like, illegal, like settlements.

Htet Khine Soe 1:06:02

So yes, at this place we go and give the vegetable. Are not caught yet. We go and give there so and then we try to make the we try to cut there. And the we go as the villager, and we could add the place, let's go together and have a food. So it's difficult. Firstly, we think that, you know that we we just think about the bamis food. So it's called, How to say diesel, diesel. Baker lahim. This is called budget David. And how can I say that that's the key word. That's bad, but we used to use it. Use it. So the kalam is from the people who from the ADN, so exactly at the end for food. So we caught there. So we think that, you know, the village out can help us, but they don't know how to cook the bacon. So, but we extend to the order to get the ingredient and how to cut the vegetable, but we have to cook ourselves. So that's the one of, one of the difficulty for us now, right now, because of this pandemic, I we, honestly, most are current at the village. So we, I got an idea from the team and trace. Now we have to make the Taliban at there. So next week, next week there will be so that's,

Trish 1:07:46

That's so cool. Oh my gosh, Timmy, your recipe is going like viral.

Timothy 1:07:53

They probably know how to make it better than I can.

Htet Khine Soe 1:07:57

I invite Tim's to have a movement. Yeah.

Timothy 1:08:03

I mean, like, I'm okay. And then the moment they started, they start speaking Karen to me, and I'll be like, because my Karen is like, down there. I spoke way much better Karen, and way much more when I was a kid. But now, and I feel a little ashamed to say that I'm correct.

Htet Khine Soe 1:08:27

Also, we also have a current member here, current member, vulnerable members who are current. So they, they interested to have these kind of movements. That's why they try. Also, they we play the football together. That's why we they know about the funeral bone. And then they, they try, they they were, they will be, they will be cooking Taliban. I, I hope that will be delicious if we cook this not that's the Rangoon, Rangoon Taliban, where we talibanizations. Yeah.

Timothy 1:09:03

Actually, I wonder what it looks like.

Trish 1:09:06

No, please don't do that. Please don't even think about it. It's just like talabo imperialism. Good tag. I kind of want to ask you a little bit more about when you said, like, you won't cook over there at the village, can you explain, like, how the whole process is, do you like, cook in public, like, and like, are there, like, a lot of like, cooks who was helping you and like, how is the feeding process? Like, do you just like, cook and then, like, give out and like, Yeah, can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Htet Khine Soe 1:09:44

So we, we, we do not buy the honestly ingredient from the capitalist. So we just go and buy, buy from the people who are paid for who sell that their vegetable. And also we are blend we, we are having the organic fan here. So we try to have it so we it will be it very honestly based on, you know, the snake measurement nature. So we are trying to have organic fan so that we were, we have to that ingredient and vegetables is from there, and then we are going to so we go and ride at the at the market, near the market, so people who are who are poor, they sell their vegetable, something like that. So we go and buy there. And then we we collect the people from the vulnerable. And we went, we went there. So sometimes the some kind of the village, they do not have, obviously, the pool people. So we, we have to go ask to the monasty. It's a time honesty. So some of them, time honesty. They are some bomb is mark, so it's good for us. We extend and we take from them, and then we went to the village, so that the village and the city is is take 20 minutes or 25 minutes. So, so how, how can I see that the two list, they all check in as so we are bas people are like, they are ATM. So the when they see the car, there's a lot of people. They they try, they try to arrest ads, and also they ask the many so, because, you know the ingredient, and also that we have a lot of things, also people who are or not oral member, you know, or some of the member, they do not have an ID card on. They are not the legal so that's why, you know, they, they try to ask many, a lot. So we, I have experienced about the trice twice. And when we went there, you know that we have to ask the How to say head of the village, and we have to ask them to make the food in here to court here, so some of the some of the the heart of village, or the their code, they have a code banner, so they allow, they allow us to do. But someday, you know, we cannot court there. We have to court at our home. Or some we carry the food. And also, even given the food is obviously not the legal. That's not the legal. So what, what they said is, you know, if you have the organization, you have to register here, register from, from the front to the government. And also you have to, you can give the food. So not all these armies, but all the time. So you have to give code. They said, like that. That's the pulley, what the police said. And also to what the village had on the village like that. So we have that kind of difficulty. And also the financial is, how can I say that we we have to ask our friend to have so as a trip, we asked a lot, and also, now we, I have a lot of friend here later. So it's like that is we have a medical certificate, these security, and also the, also the culture, you know. So the culture being is is different. You know, the most are currently here, and also most are Muslim. So, but we do not cut the code out of me, or mostly punable caught only vegetable. So we like we are vegetarians like that. So that's good for the Muslim, and also there's good for good for the other ethnic. And so that when we call the How to say that tagline is, is a little bit difficult. You know, they have never, honestly, they do not have an experience to eat. That's, that's for some some people, you know, not, not some people based a lot of people from here, so, but people are who come after the they like they like it. And also the one when we give to the current they don't know how to eat. So, so I we talk to this like Taliban is same, little bit same, like a Taliban. So let's put it in a rice and a slate, eat it. So rather they, like a lot, the nation came here and caught again. So mostly I caught there. Wow, that's. Yes, wow. So cool, as in,

Thin Lei Win 1:15:02

I haven't Yeah, please. No. I was just going to say I have an opportunistic request. I want to write about what you're doing Kho Htet, and the next time I'm invested. I would love to accompany you when you go and do that. I can. Wow.

Host 1:15:19

We should also ask any of the people that are listening, any of the guests that are here, are there any questions or comments or things that you would like to share?

Trish 1:15:29

Yeah, while that's waiting, thank you so much for sharing your story, like a really brave story too. I mean, like, I can't imagine doing that on a daily basis, and then also, like normalizing it. Another thing that I want to pinpoint about feeding Burmese people, it's they're the hardest to please. So I've, I've had the biggest challenge the past two years, cooking for the displays, or, like, my my crew, and then it's, it's, it's like feeding kids, you know, if we do not tap into, like, specific palette for this specific dish, if there's no rice cooked, and, like, they just, they just won't cave. And then I've heard stories on my friend who was working in the refugee camp, and then where, like, a World Bank, or like world free program would donate them, like these, like little snacky bars, just to, like, fill them up, right? And you would assume that these, you know, like this displaced or like people who are like, hungry would just like, you know, be happy about just, uh, using food as a sustenance, but not Burmese people, not us. We're just be like, huh? Is this not good enough? This is this doesn't match our palate. So there was just be like, abundance of like, these energy bars that are so good for your body, very nutritious. So he ends up eating those snack bars and then trading. And they made him trade from the outside world, whatever he can, bring in some Burmese food, and then they would just, you know, stick to what they're familiar with, you know, and then that's, that's also another, like culture integration that we, I am seeing here in Chiang, Mai, I have been, I want to say, disguise. I've been living abroad for like, 10 years, right? So it's just a little bit easier to adapt. But to most people, I have friends who've gone back to Burma despite the danger, just because they just can't handle the Thai food here, yeah? So like things like that, the adjustment period is hard, but, yeah, it's just very interesting. Oh, someone just asked, like, what is the difference in flavor profile between Thai and Burmese basil? Thai basil. Thai basil is not just like one type of basil. So they have holy basil, sweet sweet basil. They're like multiple types of basil that you use it for very specific dish, Burmese basil. We are not, we don't use basil that much, but it's a little bit more pungent, a little bit more floral. And, yeah, I mean the basil that I've been exposed to in Burma, that is to me, can you is the food ready? I am super hungry.

Timothy 1:18:48

Yes, it is. I am just plating and plating such a fancy word. I'm just putting it into the bowl. But, okay, I will show you in a bit.

Trish 1:19:02

This is like a torture. Um,

Timothy 1:19:07

Well, Trish, you do it all the time on your Instagram page.

Trish 1:19:15

So a little, a little like advertise. So to me's background is a graphic designer, for those of you who, who knows Bamama So he is the mastermind behind the logo design and also the name itself. When we were hanging out and we were playing with words, yeah, he was like, if you ever have a restaurant? And it was just a pun, and he just said, Oh, Bama. But for those of you don't know, Bama means like a very a slang word for Brittany's girl, and I like to see that, like anyone can interpret it however they want. But for me, it's like that spicy, um. Um, feisty Burmese girl. So he is the one who designed the logo. If anyone's interested, he's available.

Timothy 1:20:10

Yes, I did, yeah. But also, you know me, I like to edit my designs all the time. I never stop. So this is how I maintain a client, a client relationship, and that I'm going to keep editing. But here it is, okay, I don't know how to best show this there. That red little chili is just for decorating. That's what I was fishing for earlier, rigorously searching for it in the past. I took a little creative difference here. Well, it's not very creative. It's just that I wanted to remake, well, how my mom would make right? So my mom is from the Delta, yes, but my dad is from mon state. Both of those places have a lot of bamboo shoot. So whenever it is rainy season, not only we get a lot of fish, we also get a lot of bamboo shoot. So what would happen is my mom would cook a whole bunch of it, like huge pots, pots and pots of bamboo shoot. She will keep the fresher ones, younger ones, for those like, what is those? Yeah, in English,

Trish 1:21:36

It's like vegetable, assorted vegetables, relishes. Just dip it into, like this fermented fish paste.

Timothy 1:21:43

Yeah right. So she would keep that for the young ones, for that and the old ones, she would boil them down and make things like this. But what also have my family is also huge. We have like 10 people living in the house. So what happens every day is she will cook like a huge pot of whatever it is. So the difference I did here, I know that Trish told me not to that in the recipe that she wrote, she edited a bit. She said to put basil at the end and do not stir. But that is not what happens at home, because we're like, we have this huge pot that we cooked in the morning and then we would just reheated throughout the day and eat for all three meals. Well, mostly three, two meals. But here it is. It's, I like it a little not i like i like it not too brothy, not too thick, but you can still see bits and pieces of rice in it, and then there's dill and basil in there. Here's the bamboo shoot and onion. And I think at one point I was starting to guess, because it doesn't smell the same as my mom starting I was starting a second guess, but I think the the fragrance that I was longing for is the fresh garlic at the end, like when you just put it on top, right before you right before you take it off. The heat that really enhances not only just the garlic fragrance, but also the all the pepper that you've put in there. Yeah, I'm gonna enjoy this bowl of deliciousness. I wish I can share that with you, but you can have a you can take a look.

Trish 1:23:40

That looks so good. Oh my gosh, wow. Thank you to me for cooking this delicious bowl of falaba. I wish I could taste it. And yeah, like the recipe is up on insight Myanmar page, so please, if anyone who wants to remake it quartet, and if you need help with, like, portioning, and then, like, you know, cooking for batch cooking, I'm here for you too. Yeah, wow, everyone. This has been such a wonderful sorry. I'm just reading, like all the all the chat boxes.

Host 1:24:26

I have a question I would, I'd like to ask either to to Trish or mutton. I think you might have something to say about this. So we're talking about the the flow and the movement transition of Burmese cuisine as it's starting to change as it goes into other places, especially since the coup, and I guess to to reverse that question, I'm thinking during the 2000 10s, we saw an opening of the country where you had influences and products and ways of thinking internet coming in that hadn't been there. Before, as well as Burmese people who had more opportunity to be able to connect and travel abroad. And so as far as cuisine and food goes, Did you see any, and I know this was a very short time, but did you see any, any subtle influences or changes or ways of thinking about food that that this openness was, was bringing in during these years and affecting, maybe in subtle ways or even bigger ways, what and how people were eating matin.

Trish 1:25:29

Do you want to go first?

Thin Lei Win 1:25:32

Yeah. I mean, I guess when you were asking that question, Gerard, the first thing that struck my mind was the fact that we suddenly had really nice restaurants serving Burmese cuisine. And in a, you know, in a setting where we can bring friends from abroad and just showcase the Burmese food. I mean, I used to get so annoyed whenever people say, oh, yeah, I've been to your country. Such lovely people, but the food, not so great, is it? And I'll be like, where did you go? Like, you know, and particularly if they were traveling, you know, before the 2010s obviously, you know, the there weren't that there were, there weren't that many places, restaurants or cafes where they can eat. You know, a lot of them will be street type places, places where, you know, I would absolutely love to eat, but I think some tourists might be a bit worried about, you know, getting a bit a bad tummy or whatever, but also just this, you know, Burmese cuisine was dismissed for a very long time as being bland to oily, to this, to that, you know, compared with the neighboring cuisines. And sort of just like say, Oh yeah, just not as good. And to me, the big difference the influx of people coming in, the influx of people coming back, and people from inside the country seeing the opportunities, all of those three coming together, to to to, you Know, and the result was just yeah, just the people understanding Burmese, squeezing more and better and able to enjoy it and changing their minds. You know, I love it. I mean, like, I would always think, like, one of my greatest achievements, if, like, I will cook for friends at home who never eat Burmese food. And they'll be like, Oh yeah, I love this. And I'm like, Yes, but three down, how many more to go? So to me, that's the big difference, you know, that I saw which, of course, now it's progressed.

Host 1:27:52

Unfortunately, what you say reminds me of it. There's a travel writer who's based in Thailand called Joe Cummings and and I was, I was reading one of his essays at one time where he was contrasting Thai and Burmese food and, and he was talking about how Thai food is often is judged, often more positively than Burmese food and, and he gave this explanation that because of the the poverty, the poor governance and dictatorship that we've seen in the country, that the ingredients people are cooking with, everything from cooking oil to spices to whatever else that that that these are not of the same quality because of, again, the type of regime that's been there, and that if you have the chance to to have food from someone who cooks it with that's coming from a middle class background, it tastes very different. And so I think this is another way that we're seeing that that the the how food and just the the type of cuisine is impacted by these influences that might not be so apparent. And you know, and Trish has done so much, if anyone hears her interview on insight, Myanmar to be able to to describe how food storytelling is, is able to show a people and a culture in different ways, and that when, as both of you have shared, in different ways, when you're able to to bring that food, to prepare that food and serve it and talk about it differently. It can also change the culture and the people as well. So so I think these are, yeah, that's very, very interesting to think about just that short window of time where, where things changed in ways that, and if I just can share one more anecdote and then turn it then here, check in with you guys again to see what you say. And I've shared this on, on, on in various episodes. People might have heard me say it already, but during the transition period, there came to be a farmers market that would be held in kendaji Park, and there'd be everything from Frozen i. Pops to to kombucha, to organic soil, to organic fruits and vegetables. But you know, farmers market, anywhere you'd see in the world, and I would go with friends who had maybe been in Burma a couple years and and hadn't been there in the bad old days. And when you're going to this farmers market. You can kind of be lulled into like, oh yeah, this is a farmer's market. Like, I've been to anywhere else, but suddenly it would just kind of hit me, like, three years ago, my God, like nothing like this would exist. I mean, just the simplest thing of someone following their passion to make a kombucha business, someone following their passion to grow, you know, some kind of fruit or vegetable they really care about, and then being able to sell it and to be in this free association where we're we're all under the sun, we're drinking, we're talking, we're buying things, we're having a good time. This is unheard of a few years ago. It's unheard of now, and so just this, this simple experience of a farmer's market that so many of us take for granted, this is something that that was only possible when the type of government and society changed, and which, which was really a lovely experience for an hour going as farmers markets always are, and which we hope to be able to see again soon, obviously.

Trish 1:31:11

Yeah, that farmers market. My friends run it actually, and I actually work with the team on a separate like cocoa organics to sell my products back in Yangon when I had my own business. But yeah, like that was, I think that farmers market was one of the reason why I quit my job, my fancy Michelin star job, and I quit it, and I was just like, yeah, Myanmar is ready. Ready? That transition period was so heartwarming and uplifting and motivating. It was. It was an interesting time, and especially during covid hit, to see how many of the businesses, especially from the rural areas, all my suppliers, who are passion fruit, like farmers and like rice growers and Shawn state, these are, like Bao aunties, you know, who barely have, like phones, but then they had to digitalize themselves. And then they got so good at it, doing Facebook Live sales and just, you know, e commerce just boost because of covid, and then they learn all of these technical skills. And digital marketing was the thing. And then it is switched from just a month or two months, no, actually even less, like a month period that people like quickly adapt. And one of the best thing about us, like Burmese people, we just, we were born to adapt pretty much. Like, doesn't matter which regions are you're from, and then we're so affected by all of these conflicts. And yeah, like, so it's, it's so interesting to see how that evolved. Another thing is that what I'm seeing now with the work that I do, not to toot my horn, but I took a lot of these I read a lot about building food diplomacy and culinary diplomacy, and then in Thailand, the government itself would put money into in other countries to to encourage people to open restaurants, or like, to ease the visa process for people who wants to own restaurants and stuff like that. So it's it's it helps when the the your government is helping you out and like, like a little push, and which is why, like, Thai food is extremely popular all over the world, and it's just sort of boomed, right? Patai is like one of the it's a culinary diplomacy, a dish, because it's created to satiate, like, the palette of the American soldiers in 70s. So it's like one of the newest dish, actually. So why can't we do that with Burmese food? And I think the stereotypes that Burmese food being oily and then stuff like that, there's a reason for it, right? There's a reason for a lot of the dishes that we cook, but then that that's also like very scientific and then it's very like mansplaining. I find, I find it very mansplainy. So I think with my line of work, I would just create a sense of community, and then I think a lot of those are lacking in this modernized era that where we just come together and then just sit down and eat and share a meal, whether you eat with hands go ahead, or you just want to dip like stuff in or you just. Or or help cook. You know, I love when people wants to, like, come over and cook, and that's when you, like, start bonding, right? And then even, like sharing stories over each other. And then I think, Bangkok, I'm not it's, it's, it's a big city, but Chiang Mai, just in general, already have that. Um, at that culture of community building here. So it's a very easy Lee a bridge to build, and there's a lot of interesting projects happening and going to happen, and I'm very intrigued by where food scene in Chiang Mai will go in the next five years, actually, especially like Burmese food and and also to pinpoint that in Chiang Mai, especially, eating indigenous food is like a trendy thing. So it's like a cool thing. And I think it's a really smart thing, whether it's seen as, like, a little bit capitalized on it. And why not? Um, I've just recently had, like, aka food, for the first time in my life, at one of the biggest, like, Chiang Mai food festival. And then they're and then they're exposed, like, exposing to, like, a lot of tourists, and we were there at Chiang Mai Food Festival, exposing Burmese culture, and it was just a old rounder, yeah, like a happy feeling of being able to share culture, and then when you're sharing food, no one's gonna like, be angry at you, right? It's a little like leeway into the act of giving, which is, which is the heart of a lot of Burmese people, to be honest. Like, that's us, if I have to describe in like a smallest sentence, giving is Burmese people.

Host 1:36:56

Yeah. And I have another follow up question. I think all, I think this is a question for all the, all the panelists that would have some background in this. You know, we've talked about, talked just a bit about the transition period, and talked about Burmese food that was being able to to find its way in new places based on the displacement and all the Burmese people that are now around the world, and Burmese communities through storytelling, if we then go back and look at what's actually happening in the country. We've talked about this a little bit, but to address it more head on, if we look at these past few years, the people that are are remaining in the country, that are either in IDP camps and trying to get food there, that are in the resistance and the PDFs, and obviously they have to food and supply is a big part of being able to to do what they're doing. What for for anyone there, what have you learned about some of the challenges that we're seeing in the country since the coup related to Burma, whatever, whatever part of the country or or condition or community we're looking at, and how are those challenges being met, and how is the actual food and cooking and consuming? How is it changing based on the problems that we're seeing as well?

Trish 1:38:12

There's a lot to think about. I kind of don't want to go first.

Thin Lei Win 1:38:20

But people who are on the ground should go first.

Htet Khine Soe 1:38:26

I have an experience about in the Changi 16 days because of the Lekki go up. So in december 2021, so I was in the lake ego, because of in in Rango, you that I cannot stay there, so they trying to arrest me. That's why I went to the current state. And at the at the current state, why I'm I arrived there. So that's the, we call it sambarino, about some, some people were not about leakage go. So the legigo is the near the taibama border, also at the current state. So there's a in that place. We we can court, we can eat. And we are, say, we have a food at the near the Maori, Maori city. So now we is a beside the missile. So it's easy to get the food and it's easy to cut the vegetable, but in the Jang is very difficult. So, so after that, you know, there were, there was a war between the KNU and military. So, so then we have to run a run away to the channel, so at the Django so we we cannot call and we cannot it mean, you know, we do not have a goal, or we do not have policy or machine.

Thin Lei Win 1:39:57

You don't have any, yeah, no utensils.

Htet Khine Soe 1:40:03

That's why, you know, we, we, we, how to say we trying to find a, find a change to court. And that's that's time we saw that. What did we I would say tweaking Bible is not someone. Can someone translate what? So midazolam, Mobil chair, he doesn't.

Trish 1:40:27

Yeah, Sorry. Timmy, do you wanna I'm not so familiar.

Timothy 1:40:31

No, no. It's just a snack box, a tin snack box that is like, maybe this big, oh,

Thin Lei Win 1:40:40

dumb bow. Yes, yes. I know that.

Timothy 1:40:45

Family picture. It's a little red.

Thin Lei Win 1:40:46

Yes, yes, yes, okay, yeah, and yeah, yeah. That's, that's like a Oh god. It's probably quite ubiquitous in Burmese household. It's a tin, metal tin that you normally get put you have biscuits inside, yeah, yeah.

Htet Khine Soe 1:41:05

So we could, with that test that we rise, we could arrive with that that's 10. And also we, we do not have a holiday. That's why we go and catch the or the chicken or pork, something like that. So in that time, that's that we have a big, big, big experience. Also that how to automate. Let's go back to the, you know, of the, how can I see that? It's go back to the it's like an okay.

Trish 1:41:43

Uh, time cooking with whatever that's available.

Htet Khine Soe 1:41:47

How to make the fire, then we have to just get and how can I be there? So, so so many people, they have a many counties, HP, that about that. So, and then we, we have a rise, and we have a food that's there. So that's the kind of experience for that right now. Also, then at the current state, there's a lot of PDF. So the so for they are luckier than other other other place, because, you know, the they are near the Taiwan border. So that's why we can send the food, and we can send the Odyssey J car. So we can send, send the food, and we can send the rice to the to the current state. So at the middle part of Obama, they have, they have many difficulty about that, to get the rice or but even, you know, at the middle ver Obama, is that we, they grow the rice right now, is they have a difficulty about that, so because of the law, and it's like the that's just just sharing my experience in the Changa, you know, just 60 days, 16 days out there.

Trish 1:43:04

So that's so incredible. I mean, it makes so much sense, because I think that's, it's like, genius, using the metal, like the family biscuit box, because it's metal, and then, like, it's he, he'd resistant, and then it wouldn't melt. And then you can, like, reuse again and again. You can carry it around and yeah, and it cooks pretty well. In fact, I think, like, I might start using that to, like, smoke, my smoke.

Htet Khine Soe 1:43:34

And now also the talabo. Talabo is the in prison, so they everyday they give their food is like a Taliban, so in the prison. So that's a lot higher good. They always give the Taliban in the prison. So it's easy to do have a have like this, and also cheap. But they do not put the only they just put the morning glory and the rice, and it's like a soup. Take it like that in the in the prison that's we got a person food.

Timothy 1:44:17

That was not my intention, but, yeah.

Host 1:44:20

But you know, it's funny hearing, it's interesting hearing you talk about this, the Taliban being this kind of everything soup, because it, it reminds me of what I've heard of, like, you know, the origins of Shepherd pie in England, or, like, gratin in France. You know that, like in the poor countryside, these were, these are dishes that are, they could be kind of fancy and quite, you know, quite luxury kind of made now, but the origins of them are just kind of like people living in the countryside and just sticking whatever you could, either it was a soup or a stew or a pie, and then you, that's what you make and and then it's come to us today, and we, we can kind of make it fancy with the things that we have.

Trish 1:45:00

Noble, yeah, like, a lot of food now that used to be treated as, like poor people. Food is now very commercialized and capitalized as, like, a really cool thing. And then, yeah, it has this bad and good outcomes to that. But yeah,

Timothy 1:45:21

Yeah, no. I can easily, easily imagine that. Because at first I was thinking, of course, we usually eat it with rice, but rice itself is already in there, and it's already a pretty starchy filling as well. Filling dish that you can you can have almost all of nutrients in one bowl. So I can imagine how it could be a prison food.

Trish 1:45:45

Yeah, I've only heard this like the first time, but then I've only heard of like, talabo as seen as, like, for farmers, when before, like, they they start going out for farm, then you just eat it for breakfast, so that they could just last for the whole day and, like, energize them, but, yeah, prison food makes sense. You know, always wonder, like, what, what they eat in the in the prison, it's very interesting. Healthy. That's very healthy. Oh, depending on what they put, yeah. I does anyone have any questions in the group chat as well, anyone out there who's still live, but I guess we can wrap this up. And thank you so much like, if any of our panelists who has any questions or want to leave, like last, last words, final, final things that you want to say, please feel free.

Host 1:46:52

It's been lovely reading the comments that some of the guests have been leaving. Even though we're we're we're a small crowd. This will become bigger later, later, obviously, as this becomes a podcast, and the the safe version of it goes on YouTube, then, you know, more people have access to it. But you know, even though this has been a small gathering, I just want to say how much I've appreciated these comments that have been coming. I think we've really when, when you put something like this together, you really don't know how it's going to hit and and to hear from these people that are in the audience and just which, as this goes on YouTube and in the podcast, these these comments won't be there for people to see. They're just on the live version. But I'll just say for the for the live version, and for those that are hearing this later, you know, there's just been some beautiful comments of people talking about how much this has affected them, hearing this, and that's just lovely. That's everything that we wanted to do with bringing this together and convening this to find a way to talk about food and all the the tentacles that and the tendrils that food goes to, and how it affects identity and freedom and democracy and everything we care about in Burma and and so I think we've, I think we've landed on something. And really thank the panelists who've come on to share such diverse stories based on your research and background and activities and projects you're doing. I mean, it's, you know, two hours has just flown by. We could, we could go 20 hours with, you know, how much you guys have to share. So it's just thank you so much. Yeah.

Thin Lei Win 1:48:29

No, thanks for organizing it. And it's great to be talking about what's happening back home through the lens of something that I think every buddy you know can relate to, because we all come into contact with it every single day. Right? Foods the universal language eating is the universal expression of affection and love and community. And I'm always trying to find ways of trying to keep the issue of Myanmar, you know, somewhere, and I think this is a great way of doing it. So, yeah, thanks for organizing it.

Trish 1:49:06

Thank you for being obsolete, not sleeping, sleep deprived and being part of this panel, and then, like, awake. Thank you. Kota. Do you want to say anything?

Htet Khine Soe 1:49:23

Yes. Want to say thank you. Thank you for inviting me and thank you for organizing.

Trish 1:49:28

Thank you. So if anyone's in I work closely with not closely, but like as whenever I get a chance, I would donate to Kota. So if anyone's out there who's listening and then would like to make donations, please feel free to contact like, funa bomb itself, or like, reach out to us and we can, like, connect the dots. Yeah, to me. Do you have anything you want to say? Thank you for sharing Taliban recipe. I'm definitely gonna make it like. A little bit.

Timothy 1:50:02

Thank you for having me. It's really nice that I could share what I enjoy doing. I mean, as Trish has already mentioned, this is not what I do as a trait, but I love cooking. I love sharing food with my friends and and I think of this as like sharing this with even a larger crowd. And I think that is very nice too. It's a nice feeling. So thank you.

Trish 1:50:33

I think literally, oh my gosh, amazing. That's epic. So I don't know if able to show these pictures, but that gottet just showed a picture of like the family biscuit box, and then they just fired it up on the ground, and then it looks incredible. And then they poke a hole in the center. Wow, that's genius. Blown Away. Um, but thank you.

Timothy 1:51:05

I do have a question, quick question about that family biscuit box. Do you keep the packaging on when you're like, burning it?

Htet Khine Soe 1:51:14

Sorry, sorry.

Timothy 1:51:17

The label still on as you are burning it? The label, yeah, like the picture of the family. I just thought of a really, I mean, my brain, it's, I woke up a little too early today, so my brain is not really Braining, but

Trish 1:51:37

I think the label is, like, printed.

Htet Khine Soe 1:51:42

on the on the plate, on the metal.

Trish 1:51:46

So like, I think when they burn that and it's all turned like dark, so I think it's like the family is burning. It's there.

Timothy 1:52:00

I'm sorry I brought it up.

Trish 1:52:03

Oh, it's good. I was thinking the same thing too. I was like, read on, because I don't remember seeing any like, extra label on it. It's like, it like, yeah, okay, cool, alright. Well, thank you so much everyone. I guess like, this is a wrap up, and I hope we will come up because we're all, like, super busy and have like, different, like things that we're going on, but we will definitely love to do this again. Like, you know who doesn't want to talk about food for hours? But thank you panelists for sharing, like Matin and goteff for your incredible stories, and the work that you do are, like, incredible you make. You make board members so proud. And like me being Burmese, like, I'm so proud to me. Thank you so much. No, yeah. Joah, thank you so much as well. So I guess we will see if we can do another program. But let me know in the let us know in the comments for the live session people like if you want to see more of this, or like what topics that you're interested in, or like any food historians, or like anyone food related stuff out there, please, like, reach out to us. And yeah, we'd love to know. And yeah, no more stories.

Host 1:53:37

So yeah, we should actually thank Jamie, who just in the comments, said, Yes, please. We should actually credit her for the idea that started this whole thing, because she she was the one who sent a message saying, I love when you have podcast guests on your episodes that talk about food and cooking. I want more of that. And that's where I thought, well, can we can we move beyond a podcast episode, and can we blame my inner fact episodes? And can we actually convene people who are connected to Burmese food in very diverse ways and be able to prompt this? And who better to talk to than Trish? And through trish's incredible network of foodies, was able to bring on the panels that we had and so, so yeah, I think even that in in and of itself, in a nutshell, is kind of a it's kind of illustrating how these networks can function, you know, and how they can connect us in ways that are perhaps surprising, that Jamie is simply a podcast listener just offers a suggestion into the ether, and suddenly we all materialize Here, you know, so sometimes that that's all it takes is just just a little push, a little thought, a little volition, and everything comes together. And as I keep saying, even though we're a small group here, this is going to go on to be heard by hundreds and 1000s, you know, later that are going to going to come do it at their own time, in their own place. While they're working out, why, while they're cleaning, while they're cooking, while they're eating, and you know, it's going to those effects are going to keep kind of going beyond and and I think it also just kind of reminds us that everything matters. Every little thing matters. You, you don't you, you put something out there, and you don't really know where it's going to land and how it's going to hit, and sometimes it just materializes in the right way, which is what happened here.

Trish 1:55:23

So, all right, well, I guess we just leave like, it's like, bye, I'm so hungry. Well, thank you everyone, so I guess, yeah, okay, see you everyone. Bye, bye. Thank you so much for your time.

Host 1:55:55

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