Transcript: Episode #290: Surviving Scorched Earth
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:21
We all know how serious and dreadful the current situation in Myanmar is. For those of us outside the country, it can be difficult to know how to help. Of course, there are significant ongoing needs across all segments of Burmese society. For those who are able to give financially, any donations given to our non profit mission better Burma will immediately be put towards helping those being impacted by the coup. Just go to insight, myanmar.org/donation, to contribute today or stay tuned to the end of the episode to hear more options. Thank you for your consideration, and now Let's get into the Interview that follows.
Nyo Mar, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast.
Nyo Mar 2:11
Thank you. And also, I'm happy to be here as well. Actually, I was born in really the minorities of religious Muslim communities in Myanmar, and also I was born in really remote area, and also my parents, my my dad is a government health supervisor, and also my mom, she's a business owner. And I, yeah, I have, I got the master degree, and also now I'm a study at the Chima University, gender and sexuality PhD program in there. Yeah, actually my grandparents, my grandparents from my mom's times. They are from India. I think that I had from my mom. She told me. She explained about that at the time, during the during the colonize so my my my grandparents came Myanmar, and also my grand, my grand from my father Sykes, also my grandfather, also the from the outside of Myanmar. And also he got married with the Buddha woman in Myanmar. And then this is the backgrounds of my my minority religious communities. But in Myanmar, I am the second generations of India. Let me see kind of I am the second generations of India.
Host 3:45
In an essay that you shared with me before this interview, you referenced the discrimination that your father underwent and how humiliating and angry that made you. Can you talk about your father's experience and what you saw from a young age that he had to go through.
Nyo Mar 4:01
Yeah, when, when I, I was in my Shah of life, when my my dad, he came from, uh, from the government office. He really angry that, that at the time I, I told my dad what happened, and he told me, because of his working members, they call him, uh, Gala, it is mean the really bad name and really hate, hate name. So that's why my mind that he really angry about that, and also, at the same time, also really angry, and why they call mind that Gala, like this kind of bad words. I just I thought that at the time, when I was in Shanghai, when they discriminate, this is the discrimination, what one they call us. There were different religious one, they call us as a kala or is the Dali, the woman called Kalama. So when they call. Be like this. I really all wanted to know, yeah, at the time.
Host 5:06
So this is a derogatory word, that is, that, that is, is, in a vulgar way, indicating that you don't belong here, that you're you're not welcome. There's a, there's a connotation of the term stemming from this and and as you heard this word, is this something that you only, you heard only a select times in your life, and that came with a kind of shock, or was it something that you came to be accustomed to hear more often?
Nyo Mar 5:36
Yeah, it's really had to, had to say in my mind, because of we got already trauma when I was in shine hood life, and also when I or in the during the after the 88 revolutions at the time. I'm the high school students, so in our school, they have, they want to do the citizen check that in at our school. So I apply the citizen shaker in my school. But the officer, he shouted me, you are the misled person. You cannot apply. You are get a US citizen shaker in here. You have to go to the town, township, immigration office. He shouted me in front of my friends. So at the time, I feel really, really angry. And also I feel really I don't want to go next day, I don't want to go to university, to my high school, because of he shouted in front of my friends. So I feel really shame, and also I cannot express this feeling. And then now I can forget about this kind of saturation in my mind.
Host 6:52
So you're a high school student like any other, seemingly like any other, Myanmar is the only home you've ever known. It's it's the language that you speak and the country that you're in that you plan to stay in, and as you're trying to get your citizenship card status, which is what anyone living in any country for the since they've any country they've ever known, what they would expect to be a registered citizen of the only country that you know. You're shouted upon by someone in a leadership position, someone that you expect to be looking out for you and caring for your development, that basically you don't belong here. Is that? Right?
Nyo Mar 7:31
Yeah, it's mean. They, they just, they just, they call. We are the misled person. Is mean that we came from the outside of Myanmar, like from the India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, or some other Muslim countries. They think like that. So at the time, I'm also wanted to explain them, because of I was born in here, when they don't want to assess as a citizens. To me, I just also want to explain them, but I didn't have chance to to explain them, because of I was a really shy home.
Host 8:11
And yeah, so you didn't have your voice at that time. Yeah, I cannot, right? And so I think this also is relevant, because as we're looking at the future of what Myanmar is aspiring to become, which involves a federal democracy. This, this notion of pure blood, of people that belong and people that don't, even though everyone's living in the same country, and has for generations, this idea that some people belong and some people don't, and some people are more pure. These, these are notions that you're describing your experience have existed and which really need to be overcome if we're looking at a country and a society that could be welcoming and tolerant and and live in harmony and peace with different groups of different backgrounds.
Nyo Mar 8:56
Really sure. So that's why I and it at the time I'm just thinking that why they discriminate us, and then they discriminate not only in the citizen shaker, because when I I, when I was in the first year university student, we have also the religious conflict in our area, down regions. So they have also the religious conflicts we face at the time, most of the majorities of Buddhist religious leader, they were some of the people. They were the religious dress. And also they bend down our properties. They banned out our home. They destroyed our properties. And also they destroy our masjid. And also they kill our people in front of us. So at the time, behind behind me, most of the majority voted communities. They are just seeing like that. They are they. They just look at us. And some of them, I heard about that I never. Forgot this also as well. I had about some of the Buddhist community. They said that, okay, these kinds of people, Muslim people, this is the they have. They have to be faced like this because of the game from the outside of the country, outside of the Myanmar. So they when they don't go back their country. So they just, they just discuss among them. So I heard about that, so I know why they are also thinking like that. Actually, we are not really outside of Myanmar. We, we was born in here, Myanmar. So when they are thinking like that. I noticed when I a little bit learning about the human rights I learned about that it's because of the military government. They they trying to spread the hate speech. Amend the amend the Budd, uh, majority religious. So this is I had also about that when I was in the first first year universities student.
Host 11:10
Were there periods of your life where you felt that the antagonism against you, the prejudice and discrimination against you was growing or increasing based on military propaganda, or do you feel that it was pretty persistent and and egregious your whole lifetime?
Nyo Mar 11:30
I just, I just when I little bit know more about the situations of Myanmar and also happening the Rohingya case. But before the Rohingya case, we already faced like this kind of situation at that time. We don't, we don't recognize which this message is came from, and what this hate speech is came from. But when we grow up, and when I was in the university student after after the university student, I knew about that this escape, this must his speech, escape from the military side, and also in the Military Technical University, also they teach how to they teach how to discriminate them, especially the Muslim communities They have already separate among them, I'm in the military, military. So this, this is also, I had one, one message from my friends. He is working at the military service at the time, right?
Host 12:33
And so you reference being in tango your home when these this, this religious violence breaks out. You referenced that there were that the majority Buddhist community, members of the majority and extreme Buddh community, were actually killing people, minorities, religious and ethnic minorities that were in town. Goose is this something you witnessed or that was near where you were living.
Nyo Mar 13:01
Yeah, is after the town when they had the conflict happening in the town. After that, they moved to the other, other village. So I'm also, because of at the time, I am the government staff. So I moved to the downtown tango, and then I came back from the tango, and when I arrived my village, they also have the same problems. Most we don't know this message where came from at the time, we don't have any kind of communications. But at the evening, we had about that some of the the some of the men, they are, they are, they came tonight. They will come tonight. And also, well, banned in that in that village, for those who are the Muslim, Muslim homes. So I had about that at the time. I knew why, the why this information came from, we don't know exactly, but the real, the real time they came midnight, at midnight, and also, did they trying to bend down the house, and also the destroying every kind of Muslim properties.
Host 14:27
It must have been really scary.
Nyo Mar 14:29
Yeah, we are really scared at the time, so we don't if we go outside, we we feel like we are not safe somebody, if somebody can kill on the roads. No Nobody can. Can suppose to a nobody will be taking care of us. So at the time, during that time, I am also working at the government office, where I am really work hard at the government office, but. But the leader of the he he don't want to risk my position. He just want to risk his nephew's position. So that's why he just trying to kick off me. And then I'm also really surprised that at the time is the real the real situation, why they are doing like this, and also they don't know why they are doing because of they just want to discriminate us, and they just want to exclude us.
Host 15:37
So you have this violence and persecution that's heaped upon you in town, goo and then discrimination in the workplace and the school. Were you able to stay or what did you do next after that conflict?
Nyo Mar 15:51
My mom's my mom. She really worried to us because of we in our area, most of the majorities are the budget. So my mom, she really worried about that, so she went to move to us, Yangon. Luckily, in my final I got I have chance to attend the pH or master program at the Yangon University, dako University. So that's why I moved to the Yangon.
Host 16:26
I see. And how were things in Yangon wasn't any better there. Yeah,
Nyo Mar 16:29
Yangon when I arrived the first time. Yangon is really nice. But the problem is, when I studied my master's degree in in my university life, also I faced discriminations because of the first one I had after my my dream is after my master program, I will be the the university lecturer, or something like that. I This is my dream. But for my master final year, the taco University professor, she, she trying to, she said that in front of my friend, also the same. She said that you you cannot, you cannot, you cannot, you cannot. Proper answer my mind, my subject, she's she, she told me in front of my friends. So I immediately respond, no, no, Professor, I really, I really as good answer. You are, you are subject, because of I'm interested subject. So that's why I really good answer. So if I'm, I'm, I'm, if I will be wrong. Just give me my answer sheet. I will check it and what happened me? So that's why she really angry me. And also, finally, she I can pass her subjects, and also I cannot, I cannot continuously attempt the MRes. If I have a chance to attend the MREs, I will be the university lecturer. It will be good, better for me, because of this is my dream, and also after my high school. After I finished my high school, I'm I'm also applying the high school teacher at the time. I'm also paid a lot of many and also, but finally, I didn't get the job offer, because of when I look at that, most of the majorities, they got the job. But for me, I can get the job. This is also I recognize that as a Muslim communities in Myanmar, we face many not only the citizenship, but also the other kind of like, right to job. We cannot get job. Probably, yeah.
Host 19:13
So it sounds like no matter how hard you're working, no matter what good of citizen you are, no matter what effort you're putting out, there are these roadblocks, some implicit and some that are over explicit, discrimination and prejudice that are blocking the way of this progress.
Nyo Mar 19:30
Yeah, yeah, that's true. And also when, when I after, after my, I finished my master program, then I'm trying to apply in the NGO job is the Muslim organizations. And they have a firm they got from the International and also their program is the HIV AIDS prevention for the youth Muslim communities. So at the time, also, when we look when in the era, region. At the ERE region, we implement our program and that era regions, so the administration officer, they also trying to arrest to us because of we are, why we are doing he who here to do the awareness raising or sharing the information about the HIV ideas through the communities? So at the time, I explained to them, this is our organizations. We we have to focus on this young generations to to start to prevent the HIV angs program, so this is not your job. He said, like that. And also, I'm really shocked, shocked when he told me, like that, yeah. After that, they asked me how we how we got the salary, and who is our donor and who provide to us, and which they asked me a lot of question in their in their admin administration office, me is an evening to 2pm to until the evening, we Just stay in their in their office, and they asked a lot question to us.
Host 21:26
So they the the official was preventing you from doing your job of trying to support sexual education, HIV AIDS prevention, yeah, yeah, right. And so then, from this point, were you able to continue the program? Or how was it able to go on?
Nyo Mar 21:43
Yeah, that the program is really successful programs because of most of the village, village leaders. They also, they also this, this education is needed for the future and generations. So at the time they supposed to add. But whatever we in and out, we have to, we have to submit the paper the administrative administration office. So sometime the if we, we came this area and also in follow in behind with we have when soldiers follow us. Follow up every time, every day, and also day and night. Soldiers are following. Yeah, soldiers are for So the scientists are called the administration officer when they are follow us because of we are not doing the criminal case, or we are not doing anything wrong. We just doing for the SS education through the young generation, what happened with us and also when you are doing like this? So they respond that this is our duties. So you have to, you have to follow the administration, administration rules and regulations. He respond me like that,
Host 23:09
what fears came up in you as you were trying to pursue these different life and professional goals, and how did you overcome these fears?
Nyo Mar 23:21
Uh, the most fear is because of my face is really look like Indian face. So sometimes, at the time, during the times of 2005 to 2005 to 2010 we have in Yangon and also other area they have, also the religious conflict happen at the time. So that's why my face is not like Indian face. So the when I take up, I took a bus, on the bus somebody, if they're trying to kill me, I don't know how to prevent by myself. Sometimes we scare a lot, and if we move out, this is also, I'm not wearing the but my face is looked like Indian face. So that's why this is also one thing I'm really afraid when I used to take the took the busts.
Host 24:22
So you're actually so afraid that your facial features look Indian rather than Mar that you're literally afraid of getting murdered in public on a bus.
Nyo Mar 24:35
Yeah, yeah, that's true. If there we have, we at the during that time we face a lot of some of the people, they kill Muslim, but nobody, no that. We don't have any kind of rules, law. We don't have law. So if they they kill us, nobody can have a.
Host 25:00
Did you have any close encounters or scary moments?
Nyo Mar 25:04
Um, yeah, some, yeah, I'm really sometimes I'm really reflect the Myanmar situation, how the Muslim minority, how Muslim religious minority face human right violations, such as kind of we don't have a right to citizenship and also right to we don't have right to proper education as well. And for the education I also want to share when I in mind project for the HIV protest. We I read, I reached out one of the Muslim village. In that Muslim village, they have them with primary school. And also at the primary school, most of the teachers are the Buddhist teacher. So sometimes they did the Buddhist teach, some of the Buddha teacher they treat as a Muslim shy. If you are the educated person, what can you do in the future? You don't, you cannot get the job. You cannot work at the government office, or you cannot, you cannot get job at the majority companies. Or why you are studying here. So I the shine. They their fathers and mother. They told me about that. And also I feel a little bit why they just trying to do the education, circumcision, like that. I just know I noticed that this is the kind of education circumcision. Because of I noticed that most of them the Muslim in the in the village level, they are they are uneducated. They just thinking that they want to find out the money and they want to be wealthy and worthy. They don't need the education. So that's why, in this kind of spring revolution, some of the village, Muslim village, they cannot actively involve this revolution, because of they don't know exactly this is their this is the breaking of their right. Or they don't know exactly. They just find they just trying to worthy and worthy. They don't really interest about their politics, politics issues. So this is also, I found that, because of this kind of education is trying to approach the know some, most of the Muslim community could not interest at the political issues.
Host 27:45
It seems really sad because you're describing sad for obvious reasons, but also sad because it's not just the disadvantaged Muslim communities that are missing out. It's not just these which is obvious, but it's also the fact that you have a bamar majority that if they had gone and included the Muslim population more in within their societal structure, then they would have more allies. They would have more proficient allies, educated allies, that when the time comes to fight the common enemy of the Burmese military, you have a unified, trusting populace that is used to working together and with each other, and is able to come together to try to defeat the common enemy and then rebuild the society that's good for all. But it seems very sad that because the much of the Muslim community was not included into Burmese society the way it could have been that, as you're describing now, post coup, revolutionary period, resistance period, you're, you're indicating that there, the there, there are not great numbers in the Muslim contingent joining this revolution resistance, because they never really felt included in the first place. They never really felt it was their fight.
Nyo Mar 29:00
Yeah, yeah, is the and also I just point out one things after the during the times of the transition in Myanmar is a 2005 to 2020 is a little bit some of the Muslim generation. They They because of they got there, and then they learn from the internet. And also they, they got the idea about and also they, they takes the that they taste, not real democracy. They just taste the democracy. So that's why they open their minded. And also they, now it is. They are some of the Muslim youth. They actively participate at the spring revolution. But at the times I had in my research, I had one of the political one of the political prisoner. She told me that. It before she, before she left the military leaders, he just, he told he told her she are a Muslim, Muslim. This politic issue is not directly related with you as a Muslim communities, because of you know, the energy, government administration type, do you have fully human rights? He asks her, and also after, in this, also revolution, also after the you win or not, you cannot get equal opportunity and equal chance to get us human rights, business, human rights. So at the time he she also feel like, why this? This military leader? When he told he told her like this, but in front of him, he just, Okay, I'm not at the flip. I'm not participate any kind of politics issues. So she just signed in the in their paper, and also one of the one of the men, also the most of the soldiers are kicked, kicked off him. And hey, Gala, this is not your job. This you are the Muslim. You don't need to invert in this political situation. You have to be out of my so this every day and night they trying to, they kick off. And also they told him he also got from when I interview with them.
Host 31:55
I want to get later to some of the changes that have happened after the coup, but looking now at before the coup, which was really a it's obvious to say, a pivotal moment in recent Burmese history, and changing the mindset of many, and seeing what happened after the coup and what the military really is, seeing its true nature. But before that, when you're describing the kind of constant discrimination and prejudice that you're facing as a Muslim, through Burmese society, professionally, educationally, citizenship, otherwise, did you find some bamar allies that understood what you're going through, that advocated for you, that supported you, that you felt some some friendship or connection with? Were there some exceptions to these difficulties you were facing?
Nyo Mar 32:41
Yeah, some of the majorities of bombers communities, they also, sometimes they also supposed to act. But the problem is within the kind of the conflict saturation they cannot suppose to us. But I remember when the town conflict we had about that tonight they will be bent down our home. So at the time my mom, we sent back, we sent my mom to save our friend's house, and also we just stay and wait in our home. So it's mean some of the Buddh communities, they really support us, and also sometimes they show their empathy and also sympathy as well. But the main issues is the because of this high speech and this hatred is long time in their mind for exhibit is like I am not if, if I have a higher, if I got the higher position, they may not be. Accept if I, if I have the low position, compare, compare with them. I, if I walk the loose, low position, they will be accepted. But the problem is, I recognize that the problem is because of India, by still fully accepted to us, right?
Host 34:16
Yeah, yeah. I see it reminds me, as you're talking through all this, there's one figure that's coming in my mind who had a very fateful end, and I'm wondering what he may what his perhaps cautionary tale may have represented to you and your community. And that's ko ni. Ko ni was the the advisor to Aung San Suu Kyi, very close and while holding his grandson in the Yangon Airport during the transition. I forget the exact year 2015 or 16 it might have been he was assassinated directly to the head in broad daylight and killed the I believe my memory serves me right. A taxi driver had seen what happened and. Tried to chase the assembly. The taxi driver was then also killed, and I don't think that any investigation beyond that was ever done. So this was disturbing, obviously, for the murder and the broad daylight assassination taking place and but it was complicated in the sense that you it's very likely that those that were behind the assassination were somehow linked to the military, which one would not be surprised to think of all the terrible things the military's done over the years. But the complicated and disturbing part of the story was what the NLD and Aung San Suu Kyi did, or rather did not do after this assassination took place, I believe that Aung San Suu Kyi didn't attend the funeral. There wasn't really a grand statement or a protest or acknowledgement on the part of Aung San Suu Kyi or the NLD. And it was really something quite shocking to see one of the most prominent Muslims who was one of the greatest supporters of this democratic icon, as well as the party itself, killed in such an egregious and awful manner, and then it just kind of died with a whimper, and nothing happened. And so as seeing this, this very pro democratic Muslim, Burmese Muslim who put all of his life's energy and work into supporting, at that time, the NLD and the Democratic effort, and seeing not just what happened to him, because again, we don't really expect more of the military. We know how truly awful and despicable they are today and have been for so long. But seeing the reaction that I think that was the surprising thing to many, was seeing the response, or rather the lack of response, from the supposed allies that he had spent a lifetime supporting, so as a fellow Burmese Muslim, and following Kony rise and then Following his tragic fall, and the response from largely bamar Democratic allies. What was your feeling as you witnessed all this?
Nyo Mar 37:08
Yeah, is the saturation is really clear because of you know how Kuni he trying to suppose to enter into Aung San Suu Kyi, she will be the state councilor, and also kukuni. He by heart, he really knew about the two, 2008 constitutions. So mu he trying to, he, he trying to do the awareness freezing about the the Constitution, findings and issues and some recommendations. So at the time, we had about that they have the plan to kill him because of they don't want to allow who are the most understanding about the constitutions, and also who are really his life, holy life, who are the really support to the Aung San Suu Kyi so they really hate ukuni, but on the other side, from the energy side at the times the majority communities are the energy side. So that's why I think that Aung San Suu Kyi, she also afraid to show her face in his funeral. I think that because of other when I really noticed about that in 2020 elections, some of the Muslim politician trying to evolve the 2020 elections, so at the time, from the military side, they're trying to spread high speech, that energy will be the party. Means the Muslim politician will be the Muslim politician, and also Muslim will be occupying Myanmar, or look here now, Aung San Suu Kyi trying to assess to import at the politic, politic politicians, through the Muslim Muslim League, some of the Muslim leaders, so we noticed at the time Aung San Suu Kyi and also some of the energy politicians members this they sure are like, for example, in the EO region, they don't have any Muslim politicians, so that's why er region energy, energy members, they, Oh, who, who, where is the Muslim in our EO regions? They just are trying to persuade to. Get more votes from the majorities. So this is one thing I found that, and also during the times the military, they also are trying to make conflict a lot of conflict. But the problem is the majorities of communities are silent. So that's why this is, this is one of them, the benefit for the military, because of look, majorities communities are do not actively involved in this conflict, to to to prevent or something like in that conflict. So this is one thing the military they they know about the Myanmar situations. So that's why they just doing every every time they just focus on the if they have some politician issues, they're trying to hide the conflict issues, like in Rohingya community, Rohingya case, when, after the after the Rohingya case, we did some research in the in the in the conflict happen, area Arakan and also the Mandela lashu And now naoshu, and also the other area is this. In this line, they have Chinese guest by line up here, but nobody doesn't know about that. So that's why this is kind of the the military. They have good strategies to do something for their benefits. They're just trying to play games, and also they use the Muslim communities as a gamer or something like that.
Host 41:57
Yeah, we know that. We know that the military has used and abused and stoked the fear of Muslim invasion to its advantage for many years. Now we know that what I'm also curious about is as a Burmese Muslim with aspirations for a greater federal democracy in your country and a solidarity with people of all backgrounds to live, to live where everyone can live their life, regardless of their background and safety and without fear. For many years, up till the coup the NLD and Aung San Suu Kyi were really the best bet, the only bet, the only real viable possibility of a way forward. This was maybe an imperfect partner, but as a Burmese Muslim, how did you look upon the hope of Aung San Suu Kyi and the NLD and bamar politicians in the NLD towards the way they looked back at the Burmese Muslim community?
Nyo Mar 42:56
Yeah, we have, in past, we have many issues to identify that, like when 2025 and then the 2050 and then you want, and indeed the administration, administration level, so at the time we have that, oh, an NLD win in this, in this elections, so they will be helped to they will help us Muslim communities because of intangu regions, we have 11 Masjid but is all the 11 masjids are already destroyed. We after that, we have a full message open, but the sevens are still destroyed. So we hope that in during the times of Energy Administration, they were supposed to apps. We hope that in the past, but none is the we trying to after the coup. Yes, we, the whole world know about how military discriminate and how military play game. This Muslim, major Muslim minorities in Myanmar, the whole world know about that. But from the energy side, some, some of the some of the country, they don't know about that. So I just want to mention that an UD government, they published their federal democracy charter, one two, did they in their chapter? Chapter One and two, any Muslim minorities are not actively involved in in that the federal democracy charter, but this is real importance. This is the first steps for the federal state constitutions and also the federal unit constitution. This is the first steps. So they mentioned that. In their federal FTC, they mentioned that the minorities communities, but they didn't mention about that minority communities. We really they have equal right and all inclusiveness about the religious minority communities, not only the Muslim, we have the Hindu and other minority religious as well. So at the time I'm I, I analyzed that federal democracy charter. And also we have the we conducted the political, politics policy, policy advocacy meeting through the energy members and politician leaders, and also a divis or young generations. Most of the young generation, they accept that, yes, we have to be respected and we have to be equal participation and equal decision making at the political level to equal efforts the Jn generation, they accept that. But some of the How can I say it is not that a discrimination. It is because of they have in their mind. They cannot move. They cannot change their mind. They still have high speed hate those on this community. So that's why, how they respond that in this time we are fighting for freedoms from the military. So we don't need to do we don't have time for the minority issues, or we don't have time for the religious minorities issues. We just focus in on the military issue. So that's why, no this is this time. Is we? You already need to recognize to us in that times, and also when I have chance to the fellowship research fellowships I in my fellowship paper, I'm also point out that in 2000 2022 and also point out the as in energy, government should abolish. 2008 sorry, 9082, constitution, citizenship law should abolish. I already mentioned that, but in 2024 their people assembly, they announced that we abolished 9082, citizenship law. No, it's just they have to say, Ali, if they recognize, to us, this law is to totally discriminate, especially the Muslim minority communities. So they have to think of within this before, after the coup. They have to be think, and also they have to be glorified in their federal democracy charter as well. So this is, I also point out that, but they have still discrimination in their mind.
Host 48:05
So it sounds like you're not so hopeful about just as before the coup and you saw the NLD response to the lack of inclusion and compassion towards the Muslim community, the post coup nug response. You don't, you don't feel all that much more optimistic about how they're reaching out to the Muslim brothers and sisters in Myanmar.
Nyo Mar 48:27
Yeah, that's true. And also, mostly, oh, if they trying to the the Rohingya, Rohingya, or ministry, this is also they just trying to ensure the war. How look at we are accepted early minority communities. Look now is the human rights minister. Is the our Deputy Minister, our new main, US human rights minister, of mumin, and also Deputy Minister Aung mu is of his from background, from the Rohingya background. So that's why it is just for sure, because of, you know, in this kind of conflict, civil war with AA and also the military, they just also trying to trying to genocide. Again, in this community like buddhi Dao, we cannot assess any kind of information. They both sides of the military, they're trying to genocide through the communities again. But Angelo, he's still silent. If he have a actively and he have a decision making, he will, he will try to, okay, please. I. This Rohingya community need to move on some place, or be Be careful about these communities, or something like that. He will be shared the information. And also, on the other hand, he will be shared that his Rohingya community as well. But now he's still silence, so this, no, we don't want to, when he go through the whole the UK or US or and they're trying to explain about what they are doing or what they are expecting, or no, we don't want. We want that the real situation, what happened in Myanmar, inside Myanmar. So this is we want to we, hope we want to do that, but actually he just only sitting on his position, not the actively participate. Why do you think that is because of it's realistic silence. Look at when we listen. If you have a chance to listen, the BBC second interview, AA shift minister. He really challenging the Rohingya communities. He said that, oh, rohinta community, you don't need to find your history. We will be the equal treatment equal you will get the equal treatment and equal opportunity, but you don't need to find the UI history. This is what kind of interview, what kind of how need tell the truth his mind is. I also noticed about that, and also most of when, most of the UN ACR or, I'm told them, he aa Chief Minister. He tried to make challenge Rohingya communities. Look, he said, rohinda communities don't need to find your history.
Host 51:55
So this is what is that that's a curious statement. You don't need to find your history. What did that mean to you when you heard that?
Nyo Mar 52:01
Yeah, it's meant that because of Rohingya, they have, they actually aragm State have really clear stated they have only Muslim and Buddhists, just simple Muslim RAM and also the Buddha Rakhine. I mean the Muslim raid. They have Rohingya communities, but they don't accept as a Rohingya communities. They said rohinda Call Bengali. No, Bengali is not Rohingya. Rohingya also is not Bengali. Rohingyas and Bengali are separate, so they don't know. And they know they understand. They know, that's why they they just point out, don't look at your his. Don't find out that you are history because of Rohingya. Have the the many history in Nura Kai Arakan area.
Host 52:55
I see, right? So you're talking about some of your pessimism of the Yin Eugene, the Democratic leadership after the coup, and feeling that there hasn't been the kind of shift that you would like to see towards inclusion understanding of the Burmese Muslim community. How about at the grassroots level, at Generation Z, at some of the other activists and journalists and academics that you're in touch with? Do you we know that after the coup, there were many, especially young bamar, that at that moment, really recognized that they had been on the wrong side of history. They had been lied to, that they had misunderstood the plight, that what the military was doing to them was what had been happening for so long against the ethnic communities, including the Rohingya, and that they they there were many that that issued very vulnerably apologies and awareness of what they were now understanding that was immediately following the coup. It's been several years since, and so you're you've described the your dismay at the top leadership and not coming around and being more inclusive in the way that you would like. How about at the grassroots level? What have you seen there? Have you seen any shift in inclusion and opening and connection after the coup that's been that's sustained and continued since 2021 from what came before?
Nyo Mar 54:18
Yeah, it was really hard to say, difficult to have to mention the people mindset, because of now 80 people are for sure, they are really recognized and really, really respect Muslim community, how we face in the past. And these some people, they granted that we will be the equal participation and our own inclusive approach. But there are real saturation. We hope we I hope that we will see. We will see, I had about the one of the research groups, the. Did research, online research, how the the majority and generations, and also grassroot communities, how they change their mind on Muslim communities. They just look in the the online research groups for eczema is like, is a Muslim age? How many people are saying that happy, or something like that? So I think it's not enough, because of when I was when I work in one of the intu organizations, most of them are from the Mandalay regions. So as most of the people they know about how the Mandalay Buddha communities mostly hate to the Muslim communities. So that's why, in in that intu, I have a senior positions, so most of the Myanmar, and some of the people they don't really like in this positions, and also, finally, I'm trying. I'm resigned my position. This is really I recently I fixed during after the coup, so that's why I'm just thinking that just I, I afraid that it is just for sure, I just went really empathetic and sympathetic through the Muslim communities and also some of the corrupt communities like Anya or some area, because when they feel the same situation like us in the past, they think that, oh no, we know about how military, military are really how can we say persisted? How they are the masa sit at all we know now so we understand how Rohingya community face because of during the times of Rohingya conflict, most of the Rohingya community, they say, the military, they burn down our home, or many things at the time. Most of the Buddhist majority, like in any regions, they don't really, they don't really accept that this information, this is just written that they trying to bend down by themselves. They are how they just thinking that. But nowadays, they face their in their they face so they understand how Myanmar Sita, how they are their Mesa sitter or something like that. And also I remember I reflect by myself one of the peace education process when I shared in one of the Anya, really booted village, when they saw my face is like in their face, so they didn't accept to me to enter their village. Oh, yeah, amazing. Yeah, amazing. So that's why I also wondering why they are doing like this. So that's why I just okay we are not entering your village, but near here the they have some speaks. So if you want to interest, we will discuss about the peace and peace education discussions. So if you interest, you can try with us. So we some small amount of people try with us.
Host 59:02
That's That's intense you describe that you would like to see something beyond the superficial kind of symbolic level of integration and connection, something that's approaching real empathy, understanding community. What shape would that take? And I say that because I think there's a lot of listeners now that are bamar and that are working towards a federal democracy, and that are trying to understand other communities in ways that maybe they haven't been able to in the past. And so for those that are listening now and are trying to understand at a deeper level what how these bridges can be mended. What do you if you were to look for some genuine connection and empathy? What would that look like? What would be an example of something that you would feel would be satisfying and give you some comfort that things were moving in the right direction?
Nyo Mar 59:58
I, yeah, it's because of, you know, almost of, I don't know how to express my feeling, because of, now a day, we are the double and trouble discriminations. We fit this situation because of, we move to the outside of country, to Thailand, also Thailand, also status quo, like us, because of We are the Burma community, so the if we try to apply the visa, it is still difficult for us to assess the visa. Some of the immigration or most of the Thai communities, they think that we, we we came here illegal, or so many teams. And also today I'm also explain some of the Thai communities we even with. We move here illegally, but we try to get up, we trying to apply the pink card or it, I assume we trying to be illegally and legally, and also we beat a lot of money, and we spend a lot of money here. So I want to, I want to send the mic communities. I want to send this message, is enough is enough. We all are faced a lot of violation as a Muslim minority or as a Buddhist communities, how they really face because of Mesa Sita, because of militaries. So this enough is enough, and also, if we try to move the federal systems, we have to be accept, and also equal participation and meaningfully participation as a other minority within minorities, and also the Muslim minority, and also other religious minority as well. And also is a the real. The real is the human rights. And also citizen right is also the bad right. If you are born in here, you will be the citizen in this you you are where you born in that country. So this is also when themes and also, nowadays we are too late because of most of the country, they trying to approach the AI system or so many themes. But we are still fighting each other and also, but I'm worried that after we win, we win, we're trying to approach the federal system. We have to more understanding with each other, and based on the past experience, we have to try to and neutral understanding. And we have to be trying to build the organics admin, local administration level, at the real saturation, real situation in the futures. And also the most problem is we have to be trust each other, and we we have to kick off our anger or something, yeah, and also we have to be, think this world is the temporary for us. We have back and we were done one day without nothing, nothing with us. So we left everything here. So that's why, yeah, trying to understand which each other and accept each other and respect each other and as the human dignity is the most important. So that's why we have to build respect human dignity in the futures of federal democracy systems, right?
Host 1:04:00
So you're referencing the exodus from Myanmar to the growing diaspora around the world, and especially the bridging Burmese and bamar and ethnic religious minorities that have fled specifically to Thailand. And in Thailand, you have so many different people and organizations and backgrounds all in the same boat, all in the same tenuous, difficult, challenging situation, and sharing a very small amount of space and now trying to survive in facing difficulties in in a third country altogether. And so this also moves us along, moves your story along, and moves the story of the Burmese resistance and where we are now. So let's get on to your story as well, because you as you also moved, I presume, out of fears of safety and being targeted. You. You founded an organization and you pursued higher studies. So tell us about both of these.
Nyo Mar 1:05:04
Yeah, it's because of, I have we, I have a lot of trauma, discriminate because of religious, because of women, and also because of I was born in the village area or so many discrimination I face, so I just thinking that is enough for me, but still face discrimination. So that's why my that's why I found the feminist minority Women's Institute and this organization we want to we focus on the women at the free participation at the political decision making level. And this is also the really important for for the minority women, because of every situations, minorities women are faced a lot of violations, not only the big, not only big, not only the human rights violation, but also during the Civil Civil War, we face a lot of sexual violence as well. So that's why we just trying to focus on the women participation. At the political decision making level, it will be to put the better future for peace and social cohesion and also solitary or something we can we will be the peaceful society among our communities. So this is my big dream in our feminist minority Women's Institute.
Host 1:06:53
Yeah, what do you hope to accomplish through this organization?
Nyo Mar 1:07:00
We found that different minorities, women's representative groups, some are from the tananawe, they also face the same situations and send some other or the, the my, not the Muslim minorities, but other, the Nepal or Nepal communities. Leaders also, we found that, and we just, we were engaged to the energy government and also the whole world. We will do, we will do the research and also engage to the energy government and also other federal, state unit, federal units now in the federal units, the the the they trying to approach the local government system and structure. In this Russia, women have to participation in the structure and also in their federal constitutions. They have to be clarifying the how many women participate at the political decision making level, not only the parliament, but also the local administration structure. And as well, I've finished my must international masters of human rights and democratization at mahito University, and also the Peace Peace master in Myanmar institutes of theology, and also masters of geographic and tackle University I'm now, I'm studying the PhD program in gender and sexuality and faculties of social science and other women Study Center. My focus is most of my times is the feminist point of view is equal participation at all levels of government, and also not only the government system, but also the other NGO or Ingo, or other international organizations or and also the local communities or women have to be participates at the decision making level. Women are not implemented because of most of the men. They decide, and also the as to the women do and do this and that, so women are not implemented. Women are also decision make, decision make maker. So I have to be point out and this, and also at the federal unit constitutions need should clearly. Focus and identifying how many women participation in the political decision making level, and also amend them, how many religious women, minority religious women participation at the political level, they have to be glorified on that.
Host 1:10:20
So you're preparing policy suggestions for a future democratic state of Myanmar. The question is, where are you then submitting your recommendations, and is there an interest and engagement in the work and the findings that you're presenting?
Nyo Mar 1:10:35
Yeah, I have some of the people I'm also published on the some of the Academy website about the minority issues.
Host 1:10:50
Yeah, so within the Democratic leadership and ug and UCC CPH that are currently active, have there Been, has there been an interest at those levels of seeing your recommendation and analysis?
Nyo Mar 1:11:06
Yeah, yeah, because of when we contact the the policy advocacy meeting in that sessions, they know how, the how, the how important religious minority to participate at the political decision making level, they know, but the real situation, they cannot easy to accept, not only the minority religious community, but also the women participation at the political decision making level. They also, they know that, but they also cannot easy to assess because of the mostly they point out that, oh, we have to be focused on the military.
Host 1:11:50
So you feel like you're making progress in those discussions and dialogs.
Nyo Mar 1:11:54
Yeah. It will be, yeah. It will be because of look, 2090 82, citizen law when they abolish and also when I point out the federal democracy charter to have to clarify. The minority religious communities have to clarify on that federal chart down so they know about that.
Host 1:12:20
Yeah. So does that give you hope going forward? Because just a moment ago, when we were talking about the inclusion and understanding of the Muslim communities, you were feeling that you were not really seeing the progress you were hoping for, but from a background of gender, gender equality and inclusion, it sounds like you're a little more hopeful. There is that, right?
Nyo Mar 1:12:42
Yeah, it is a some, but, all right, some bus are not really because I had about that. Some of the women organization, they're trying to approach the woman, but especially at the political decision making level, at that time, some of the political leaders, they said that, oh, this is not important. This is not the first prioritized on this during the times of situations. So it's kind of and also, when I encountered the training about federal concepts of federal training at the time, we focusing on the local government implementer or let's see now Ed and also the PDF. Or we we share about this information, and also some of the young generation, they accepted that, but yes, we have to be moved forward to equal participation and all inclusive net approach, but some are still silent. We have to engage more and more to equal participation at the political level.
Host 1:13:54
What can you tell us about the experience in Thailand?
Nyo Mar 1:14:01
Foreign organizations? Is we have, if we trying to register in time Thailand, it will be also 4% of the upper level. We have to be Thais. Have to be the time staff. And also, if we register the time government, we have to pay tax. So that's why some of the organization, they trying to the MOU with the university. So that's why it will be compared with this registration and MOU. Maybe MOU is the most better to engage. Easy to get implement. Easy to get the implementations because of most of the programs focusing on the cdmr or politicians also the. Why it will be better to engage to the university, and this is the NGO side, and also the media side. Also, even in media, some of the youth, women media, they, they don't have the any they they are this the first time, they are the illegal, but now they're trying to be the legal, legal stated. So that's why, during the times of illegal stated, they have faced a lot of sexual violence, and also the perpetrator are still free, and that victims are still blaming bank. So this is also our communities. They just, they have used to the victim blaming. They just when they look at the perpetrator because a perpetrator is worthy or politicians or decision maker or so they don't, they don't play into the perpetrator. They just play into the freedom again and again. So so so does that the young ladies media leads. They They also afraid to share their feeling, how they face the sexual violence if they share in a manda their work, but they will be, they will be dropped off their job. So they just, they just stay, be patient to they don't want to left the job because of if they left the job, how can they find another job? Media is in here is a really small, small society, because of, if you draw off this media, you cannot enter the other media. So it is also one issues I found that when I did the research. And also, yeah, some of the Gen generations, they, they, they, they have a chance to stay at the safe house. And also, one of the ladies, she also, she young young lady. She faced also the sexual harassment. But when she tried to send that message to the about, does it make a level leader? So they are? They? They didn't do any proper way. They just, oh, we are sorry we had about this. We are sorry. And also, perpetrators stay free, free. But they also, they are they, when the outside of the safe house, safe house, and she said that at the time, she also trying to suicide to her.
Host 1:17:58
That's, that's awful.
Nyo Mar 1:18:01
Yeah, when she told me about that, and we both are crying, and we don't know how to, I'm also don't know how to, how to do, how to reduce trauma at the time, yeah, And the time as a time as a Burmese citizen, sometime we face we are as if really human, or sometime we face like that because of is, yes, it's weak. We move here illegally because of country saturation. We are we didn't do nothing wrong in here. Yeah, so we are a human. When they are, they treat to like as a human. Sometimes, I I think that why they are doing like this. Because when they look at our passport, our passport is the red passport, and also is from Myanmar's. And so immediately they change their face like this, oh, Myanmar like this. And also in the in during in the market as well, when we asked them how he told like this. No, no, we don't. We don't. They're just trying to kick off us. So I'm just thinking the one white people have a treat to Myanmar. Myanmar. So for me, I'm trying in Myanmar. I'm faced a lot of discriminations because of I am the Muslim communities. The first I think that if I move to the outside of the Myanmar I cannot fit. I may not be fit this kind of discrimination, but still, I face this discrimination until now. So I don't know what happened in the war. I don't know how to fit this world to get the to respect the human right. And human dignity, yeah.
Host 1:20:06
I'm sorry, yeah.
Nyo Mar 1:20:10
The first thing is, we have to reduce our our trauma, and we have, we have to be peace in my mind first, even they trying to discriminate to us just neglect because of some time, I think that when I face the discrimination, I just think, Oh, enough is enough. I don't care about that. And just trying to reduce my trauma, and I just trying to inner peace by myself, this is the first thing, the first thing, the first thing we have to do.
Host 1:20:51
And, yeah, right, and is that enough to be able to continue to work towards these greater ideals and not get knocked down, or perhaps get knocked down and stand right back up from this kind of ugly behavior.
Nyo Mar 1:21:08
Yeah, is this kind of behavior is sometime up, sometime down. And as yesterday, I met one of the NGO staff. She is working at the Ingo, and when we we met each other, she said that, alkane, in this situations, we communicate with online, it difficult to communicate online, and because of people are, people got a lot of trauma, and they just saw the online message, and they got the trauma again and again. So that's why, because of she said that their organization supposed to the Catholic Church to supposed to the indp and the power area, so, but the financial management system in Catholic Church, so that's why IDP cannot fully benefit for the donation money. So that's why that that party send the open letter to the donor, and also do not get off the support so at that time is the IDP face, a lot of survive. So, so that's why we have to be think whatever we want to do, just look at the situation first. Who will be the effect in this situations? So because of now a day, we are, we have community. We are only when the communication with the online communication This is also will be misunderstanding with each other. So that's why she said that, okay, yes, we will be taken care of in this kind of situations. And mostly we have to be misunderstood. We have trying to understand with each other. And sometimes, if we got the misinformation or disinformation, we just analyze and such. This information is true or not, it will be better for the futures to, yeah, to get peace.
Host 1:23:29
So if these are all the things that have knocked you down, giving you trouble and made you pessimistic, what are the things that inspire you? What are the things that make you believe in a brighter day and a better future?
Nyo Mar 1:23:40
Yeah, it's because of I am human. I have to be the real human, and also I know the situation, so that's why I have to be fixed the situations, and I I have to learn more how to solve the problems and how to be optimistic when I annoy the most of the people, they think they said that you have to be the optimist. You have to be the optimist. This is kind of also the trauma, because of, because of, as a Muslim woman, I face a lot of discrimination. Sometimes when I respond, it's immediately response. They are discrimination, something like that. So at the time, they think that I am the really, how can I say I'm the really misbehave like that, or something like that. But they don't. They don't think how they treat me. They just thinking. They just thinking that how I respond. So this is also both sides will be the vice divider, and the win win situation will be happen. It will be the most peaceful. So that's why, mostly, when I go. The peace training and just sharing the information. If you see this is negative, yes, you accept this is negative. You have tried to say this is negative. And also, based on this negative, you have to be learned how to be a peaceful approach. This is the positive. So the positive approach. So that's why I'm just sharing my knowledge through my in in my training. So that's why I mean is we have to be accept the real situation first, and then we have to learn from this situation and also to move forward with the peaceful way I see, I see.
Host 1:25:44
Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story and your work and activism and education over the years and the work that you're continuing to do in the future. Myanmar, we'd all like to see,
Nyo Mar 1:25:58
Yeah, it's okay. I think, yeah, I'm also think inside Myanmar broadcasting is because of it also useful. I listen two or three episodes. And also I learned how poor area face, and how Myanmar face, and how the weeks, how they've shared their experience, I learned from that. So this is really useful for the Myanmar community to better to create better society. Yeah, this is one of the good channel,
Host 1:26:36
And now you're also part of that story. Yeah. I, great. Thank you.
Nyo Mar 1:26:43
Thank you.
Host 1:26:56
Thank you for taking the time to listen to this show. I realize this is an enormously difficult time for many people who love Myanmar these days, myself included, and at times we might despair that there's nothing at all we can do to stop the horrors unfolding there. However, just the mere fact of staying informed is helping to bear continued witness and keep a focus on this issue when so much of the international media has moved on and the only way we can do our part in continuing to provide this content is through the support of generous donors, listeners like yourself. If you have found this episode of value and would like to see more shows like it, please consider making a donation to supporter efforts, both monthly pledges or one time donations are equally appreciated with all funds going immediately into the production of more episodes. Thank you deeply, and if you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method, Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions aiding those local communities who need it most donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement, CDM, families of deceased victims, internally displaced person, IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries, education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies, covid relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our non profit mission, Better Burma. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website, betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit card. You can also give via PayPal, by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search Better Burma on each platform, and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org, that's Better Burma one word, spelled B, E T, T, E R, B, U, R, M, a.org. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artisan communities across Myanmar, available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artisan communities, but also our nonprofit's wider mission that's Aloka Crafts spelled, A, L, O, K, A, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word alokacrafts.com. Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.