Transcript: Episode #285: This Land Was Our Land
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0:16
fires rip through Rohingya refugee camp in Bangladesh on Friday cramped and dangerous conditions for the more than a million ethnic Rohingya, who fled Myanmar since 2017. But now there's concern for those back home
0:35
hundreds of Muslim ethnic minority Rohingya us have been conscripted to fight for Myanmar's embattled military junta.
0:48
But these rangers are stuck in these camps. They're never allowed to move anyway, they're completely trapped.
0:58
Un is warning of the risk of increased violence in Myanmar's Western Rakhine State and it's home to the minority Rohingya community.
Host 1:12
Before we start today's interview, please allow me a word or two about our podcast. Even as Myanmar plunges into a civil war because of the military's bloody coup. The international community and media organizations have all but turned their backs on the country and its people. But this humble platform is committed to staying the course we conduct nuanced long form interviews with a variety of guests connected to Myanmar, so our listeners can better understand the ongoing crisis. Thank you for choosing to spend the next couple of hours with us today.
Brad 2:52
And welcome back today to discuss the the history and the ongoing nature of the Rohingya crisis in the Rohingya experience. We have a renowned activist, sojo, Dean joining us and I'd like to thank you very much for joining us. And I'd like to give you the opportunity first to introduce yourself and your background for our audience.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 3:14
Thank you very much, Brett for inviting me into your programs. I'm Rohingya was born in Dokdo. archon, which is now known as Rakhine. And I will spend that later about why Rakhine and Archon is a bit of a political term. And I was lived and grew up in in Rakhine, and I had to leave the country when I was about 17 years old. And since then, I've been involved in democracy activism in various countries, as a refugee, and finally, I also resettled in Australia and I continued activism in Australia. And currently, my focus is more on rowing is right. And a safe and peaceful place for Rangers future. And also, I'm involved in running refugee community centers in school in Malaysia.
Brad 4:25
Excellent. So there's quite a lot been going on and clearly a very tumultuous life. But before we sort of delve into that, I think, what would be useful for the audience and generally, for anybody who is interested in this is looking at the history looking at the context, because for a lot of people, I think the the Rohingya became a topic in the 2017 genocide. And I think a lot of people outside of the region didn't know about the ranges of people. Before then, so I want to look a little bit at the historical context and just right off the bat in your introduction, you mentioned that the distinction between Rakhine and Aragon is a bit political. The the state is called Rakhine, but the predominant ethnic group are called the Agha Khan and I believe historically the the region was called the Arakan, kingdom of the Vatican principality. So I wonder if you can explain a little bit about the choice of of word, the choice of language and what implications it has.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 5:32
Basically, just to for the short answer, Rakhine is just a recent renaming had happened to avoid or to deny the existence of any other group in America except the Rakhine, who were historically late arrivals, if you like. And they only and then they went, government I think was in forgot exactly in 80s. The car was changed into to Rakhine. I mean, the first known area, this area was known as the nav in Burmese, the novelty but the original name is the novelty, the novelty is first and sixth centuries. And then in the first sixth century, first to sixth century AD, I think, yes, if I'm not too confusing with the date first to sixth century AD, it was called Vasarely Vasarely. In Burmese, they call it wait Ali. It's a pronunciations calls with Ali. And then third to 11th century AD. You know, until modern day, it is it was Archon and then just recently changed into Rakhine. So when we say Archon Archon is not specific to one ethnic group. Now, Rakhine, who used to be known as smoke. I mean, it was one of historical documents, they were known as smoke. They called themselves Rakhine, and obviously, you know, everybody has the right to name themselves, whatever they want to be. And we respectfully call them that kind. And then, very recently, they started to call themselves as archon, or Kunis or part of the Archon nation. Just to give you another example, for example, for us, the for the Rohingya people, the left, that area was always known as Rohan, the land of Rohan. And the people of Rohan are Rohingya, regardless of their race and religion. And it was, I mean, we need to understand that rank is never historically just to call one group of people, whoever was below whoever belong to the land was always Rohingya people. And he was also the same until his the terms has become politically or it has some political significance. For example, when the land was called archon, and a lot of people call themselves are Canis, you know, like an American, you might have a Native American, you might have Irish Americans, or you might have other Americans who would call themselves American, although they might have a unique ethnic identity to themselves. So that was the thing and only last, you know, century that terms has become very politically motivated and also a reason to prosecute others.
Brad 9:16
So, I mean, while while we're on this topic, I think I think this is just a useful thing to clarify that the pronunciation because I learned my pronunciation from the Burmese influence. And so I say Rohingya, a lot of people in the English speaking well, it's a rocking gah you seem to be saying it the Rohingya as like a softened sound, is that the correct pronunciation?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 9:37
You will? Yes, I think even within the ruling ruling community community, depending on the region and influence of the language, you might even slightly say it differently. It is an accent thing, but it is that it said the word is people of Rohan, basically, people of Rohan are Rohingya
Brad 10:06
Interesting. And so so that means that the Rohingya label is a geographic label. It's it's something that's that's connected to the actual space. It was not originally. Are you saying it was not originally a sort of ethnic identifier that there can be different ethnic groups that are Rohingya because of the region where they live?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 10:27
Absolutely. That was that was the original belief. Let me give you an example. Right. We are after the independent there were a group of I mean, there's a group of Rakhine, who were part of in now in Bangladesh, right. And also, some kinds are in in a Burmese side of the border and some of the Pakistan back then the Pakistan side of the border. Now, when we talk about, about these two group of people, in our Rohingya language, we call them Rohingya mark and Anika mark for example, or knock a knock you know in the Emmys are not meant note. So, we say, the morgue, which is Rakhine in reference are from western part of our country now, and those who are in the land in the in Rohan land we call the Rohingya mock. So therefore, the we identify people of the land as a Rohingya.
Brad 11:48
Interesting, that's very important to understand. And so, this is this has clearly shifted in the general discourse. And even before the 2017 genocide, clearly, the perception has been on the part of, at the very least, the military, the government, that the Rohingya are not a geographic description, it is an ethnic description. And specifically, it seems the narrative is that the the Rohingya people are our Bangladeshi people that that is that has been the narrative that has been pushed by the military government. That that's that's what it is to be Rohingya it is to be a Bangladeshi Muslim who has crossed the border into into Myanmar. When did this idea start to become popular?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 12:40
Well, I think this idea started to become popular, only off the military coup in 1962. And then, obviously, there's a lot of the Rakhine the politicians have also a big role to play in it. For example, if you look at right after the pre independent statements about Ranga, just as a few popular ones, I don't want to go into a lot of historical details. For example, century, you know, the first president statue type. His statement is, if we if the records are not authentic of Myanmar of Burma back then, then we cannot claim ourself as ethnic of Burma. So before that, it was not an issue. I mean, we have a radio stations dedicated to the Rohingya language. And we were part of the broader Rohingya, sorry, the ethnic groups. And there are so many references, I can go on and on right. And after a military coup. Let me clear this as well. A lot of prosecutions happen to Rohingya are not only perpetrated by the Burmese, but it is, in many cases were either invited or initiated by the Rakhine leaders. And they in one sense, I believe they were the Burmese were actually used to eliminate the Rohingyas from the land from the original land by the Rakhine in centuries, if we like it was one of the things that a lot of historians regular is trillions and others believed he you know, the the invasion of Rakhine in 1778. I think it was also meant today to to in that period. What's actually the Rakhine says in Rakhine has invited a Burmese to invade to weaken the Rohingya population to drive the republishing off. And the Burmese has notoriously known for their you know, Genghis Khan like atrocities, and they have killed, many, many, many people. So, to answer the questions, I think if this the propaganda started, widely started before that there was not a problem is in late 2060s and 70s. This problem started, like only in the 1960s.
Brad 16:01
Interesting. And so. So that raises a point because the tension here seems to be between the Rohingya people, or the people that we today identify as Rohingya and the people that we today identify as an icon or Rakhine. And so you seem to be saying that those those people that are icon slash Rakhine people who speak a dialect or language closely related to Burmese and are predominantly Buddhist, that they came to the region later. And then they have had a concerted effort to bring in Burmese influences to push the Rohingya off their land. Is that Is that an accurate description of the history?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 16:45
I think? Yeah, absolutely. That's the accurate description of the history.
Brad 16:50
And so is there any sort of origin to the bad relationship between the Rohingya and the Archon? Or is that simply a question of land and power?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 17:04
Yeah, we need to give you a mistake in this, it is pretty much the question of land and power. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And that has obviously fueled. Let me just give you one one more clarification, just so that we understand. You know, we often associate when we say Rohingya in association with Muslims, right, Rohingya Muslims. Right, which is true, the vast majority of us are Muslims. And it's also understanding that when whenever we say ruling, is very quickly people believe that riggers are maybe not as a reason migrant as the Burmese or Cannes claim. But we often you know, news articles will say, or they are believing there for centuries. So in other words, the Rohingya Muslims migrated to that land, right. What I wanted to clarify is, is not the people who migrated to the land is the religion who is influenced to the people of the land. For example, you know, nobody would say, we're probably the best example of Malaysia, let's say for example, right? The Malaysian Malaysians are the Malay people are the land of Malay Malaya, you know, there will be you know, the religious propagators came and propagated their religion and people accepted the religion and they become Muslims.
Brad 18:54
Interesting, so. So the religion came that the people stayed, they just changed their religion. There is
Sujauddin Karimuddin 19:00
yes, so these are the same people who were the people of the novedades. The people of Weatherly, the people of Archon is the people of low hunger for that matter what they call the landless. So these are the people they might they were pagans, they were Hindus in the periods and they became Muslims in a period of time.
Brad 19:29
Interesting. And so, so then taking it a little bit more modern. So after the coup, that there's this tension over overlanding control of the state with the Arakan and you have this military government after the coup that is trying to portray the, the the Rohingya as as sort of illegitimate and, you know, we'll definitely talk about the 2017 but probably Prior to that, what was the Rohingya experience like in Rakhine State, how how regular how severe was the persecution or were there periods of relative peace and and friendly relations with the other groups.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 20:19
The kind of regular relationships very dynamic in a way because whenever the records are in conflict with Burmese, they tend to have a bit of less attention with ruling is at the beginning and then whenever they will have a better relationship with Burmese then we will the regulars will be suffered will be suffering you know, at the hands of the Rakhine this is just a general political statement if you like the life let me I think probably best to share my childhood experience. So that you understand, you know, people can relate to that perhaps in a personal experience. When when I was growing up in a in 80s, there was the rowing is has relative literally equal right to Rakhine. Because we had the same National ID Card, we had access to the same services. We had people in the we still had people in, in the government services police force in military, my own maternal uncle was in in military. So you know, even though the propaganda started since late 60s and 70s. But there were still people enjoying relative. Right, if you'd like citizenship, right? We still have access to hospitals, they still has access to schools, and there were the ethnic tension, the areas where there were majority Rakhine would believe the Rohingya as you know, and in vice versa, for example, in the whenever there was a more rigorous perhaps probably, they would also have the same kind of situations, they were kind of put to have less, you know, power or authority in certain areas. But where I grew up, we were only about 25% after the big massacre happens in World War Two, so the remaining 25% of the population of Chaco was pretty much living under the mercy of Rakhine Goodwill's. We had like my family had, for example, shops in in the main bazaar main market of Chaco, we had lands and but we were always prevented or, you know, whatever harassed when while we are going to the, to the shops or to the market. We were harassed we were always prevent in one way, you know, prevented not by the government but by the local Rakhine accessing schools. Imagine, you know, for 11 year old sometimes they have to carry weapons to protect themselves, like knives on the way to schools and on the way back from schools. And slowly, what started to happen was, in 90s, the Burmese government started to impose that the 19 Sorry 1982 citizenship law and then, you know, our identity cards either forcefully confessed confiscated I don't know you know, the terms you know, map on day nine and as you say, you capture all these registration cards, different national ID cards. So, I mean, I even had a passport as a child. So I was a full citizen. But when in it is our you know those passports because tickets can confiscated and my mom and dad still had their national ID card but we were still too young to have a national ID card however a lot of Rohingyas national ID cards were caught, you know, either by what they call it by hook or crook you know they will say you know if you surrender this ID card and we will give you will issue a new card and they will never issue the new new card when so when these things start happening and slowly our access to services becoming more and more complicated as a non citizens, you can't travel anymore because there's always roadblocks and there was a police checking you can't even buy the tickets for plane or ships. And access to education is becoming complicated access to government services becoming complicated. And because you cannot travel anymore, your your business become a problem. You know it's impacting your business because you can't go and trade or you can't go and buy things from the city to sell in your towns. And all of these things becoming slowly slowly. What's the word free to find the right word more becoming more and more difficult or tightened? Rodriguez and now who are implementing this? Although it is you know, supported by the Burmese Government, but the Rakhine local bureaucrats and law enforcement officers are the one who are imposing all these laws and even civilians in many cases.
Brad 27:04
Okay, so. So you seem to be saying that a lot of the latent problems were not centralized at all it was it was mostly sort of racist attitudes from the Rakhine themselves that were the problem for the Rohingya was not a nationwide phenomenon at this point.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 27:22
Ah, no, no, no, no, no, not at all. Because, for example, the Rohingyas who are in other part of Myanmar, they enjoy pretty much the same right. You know, in Yangon, for example, had, we have a lot of robots in Yangon, but until, you know, quite late, they even had to change their ethnic name to their hiding, I don't know, some would call themselves Burmese Muslims or what not. There were there were so many hyphens names, you know. Or the command or to the original content, they had the green folder, Three folder, cut the call to go to basically three fold card had their ethnicity name as Rohingya, but then later on the change in in many things, including some offices would forcefully put the name as a Bengali, for example. Or Indian Muslims or, or Bakhtin was, I don't know, there are so many different names and become, however, the level of discriminations and atrocities are not the same. In our con, and other part of Myanmar.
Brad 28:46
Right. Okay. So it wasn't so it's the discrimination it was it was every day, it seems, is bureaucratic discrimination. It's police discrimination. It's racism from from civilians. It's not these major military operations that that you have to be afraid of. It was more subtle but more surrounding you every day. It sounds like so
Sujauddin Karimuddin 29:14
until not late, I mean, mid 90s. It was pretty much come from civilians. And from midnight, not even midnight is from pretty much punchy government. Can you was the prime minister also who was the the multi intelligence, head of the military, military intelligence, and my attempt is because COVID Toyota say and then, I mean, in that era, the throwing in situations become like a living hell in Oregon, from frost forced laborers to you have traveled restrictions. And the military also, you know, the brutal gathering is. And I might point out this is not only a good race, they were also brutal like Israel kind to I must admit that. However, there are kinds were less impacted with their brutality. I mean, what are the repercussions will be impacted, for example, forced labor, they will also impacted by forced labor. However, because of a lot of the have you, you know, you probably know about forced labor in 1990s. And the forced labor system was pretty much gradually changed, you know, how they were, like, taking people for forced labor. At the beginning, a group of military personnel will come into the village, and then they will arrest young men, then take them to forced labor to work for days, and then we'll release after a while, they don't the military personnel don't come anymore. They just send a letter to the router, you know, the head of the village, basically, ahead of the village, then we'll go door to door to say, you know, this is your turn, it's your turn, this is your turn. And they will just say simply state a number I teach this many people we want 200 people or 50 people. So what happens, what happened was a lot of the head of the village were retired. So the Rakhine will automatically target only the Rohingya or sometimes they will have let's say, if they have demanded 100 villages for forced labor, but it would be Rohingya and tangled Rakhine. So in that sense, indirectly again, even though there are some, you know, military atrocities were equally impacted however, Rakhine is the the Rohingya is were more affected than Rakhine. And when we look at travel restrictions, for example, the Rakhine didn't have travel restriction they could travel, but Rohingyas had travel restrictions. That's it was not simply because of the you know, the military army imposed this this was imposed by the bureaucracy, by the police, the police are, you know, the head of the bureaucracy and they would issue these tokens or you know, the, the what is the word for English is like a recommendation letter to verify that this person is from this town, right from the police station with issue this letter, what they used to do, they charged so much for that letter, it is become almost impossible for a common Rohingya to even obtain that letter. For example, just to give a context in 1994, one teacher's monthly salary was 900. Jet. Right? And to obtain this letter, you have to pay police 300 chat, so it's like 30 35% of professionals salary, a month, monthly salary. And so let's say from Toronto to situate to travel, the ticket was 4525 to 45 jet, depending on what shift you're traveling. For Rohingya that tickets become almost 250 jet How many percent is that? I don't know. 1,000% more. You know, this is not military. This is the the Rakhine offices and, you know, the public service offices they say they will be the one who will do this. And even even if you have a ticket, for example, you might not get a proper play You might not even caught on to the shift, depending on the office over there. You know, this sort of discriminations that which never know a lot of people have never have access to. And hospitals, schools, like I mean, one incidence, you know, when I were I was in school in year six we, the, you know, we were we had arguments and I was bitten by Rakhine kids, and I will put the complaint to the teachers and the teachers will come and, you know, often will say, you know, come on, guys, while you're fighting all this, right? Like, I mean, it makes sense, like, you know, any school, any, anywhere, every every school, there are some people bullied the others. Right? But in this case, the police were encouraged. How do they encouraged? First, they were both, we were both called to the office, to the to the principal's office. And we were both, we were both hit by with the cane for fighting. Instead of punishing the bully, we were both hit rate. And the second time, and the one of the teacher was actually telling the person who hit me with the gang who helped me basically, who beat me up, telling them, make sure next time you beat him so much to the heat, do not dare to complain. So this is happening in the school. And because of that a lot of people a lot of Rohingyas never go to school. And that was the purpose so that they remain illiterate. Just to give you another context. When I was in high school, well, some someone a Rohingya, who somehow reaching to high schools, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a battle. It's a battle. That, you know, it's a life battle, they probably had to go through to reach it, you need to have so much willpower to learn, or to be educated, you know, to be able to reach to high school. So when I was in year nine, High School in 1996, we were only a nine Rohingya students. In the year nine, we had about 250 students. If we look at the population, we are 25% of the population. But nine out of 250 How many percent is that makes, I guess?
Brad 38:14
So that 4% 4%
Sujauddin Karimuddin 38:17
So this is how the ruling is we're not only discouraged but violently prevented from attending school. institutionalize, you know, discriminations in many, many ways as well. And another example you know, in when I was here, five, some of my friends these are friends that we grew up together like we were neighbors, basically. Rakhine friends, they all joined martial arts, you know, karate classes, and I also joined the karate class and I was refused said oh, you're not allowed to join the karate class? I asked. Why because you're not rely solely because you're Allah by the way, don't call us We ask Allah. Allah is doing that for your audience. I don't know you could give a better reference is like what is the best? The best I could say is, you know, calling, nega for example. Yeah, you know, it's a paid like, degrading term color. So colors are not allowed to join the DIS classes, martial art classes. And later on, my friend told me because when I asked my friends, it's alright. I can't join. But you are joining the classes when you practice can I join with you to practice right and He said to me, we were told that if you teach any color this art, the punishment would be the the counsel of the martial art would break one of your leg or your arm.
Yeah, so this is the Having said this, right? I mean, you can, I mean, this is very general experience, of course. And I'm not saying every Rakhine is like this. The for example, the friends that I just give a reference here, we have very good relationship with this family, you know, where my dad went to school together with the dads and these kids, we went to school together, we we have good relationships, we have trades we have, we have friendships. However, this person probably is very good friend of mine, but he might treat other ringers not the same, you know? That's also is true.
Brad 41:22
So it must be a very strange experience to be friends with a person who might simultaneously have racist views and attitudes towards your, your ethnic group, your community is well we all do.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 41:35
It's a kind of it's a kind of it's very difficult to explain the How did how dynamic of the relationship and that's actually you know, what I first heard first time heard the Malcolm X axis speech, you know, home slave, how slave and feel slave that I was quickly related to me very quickly. It's like, wow, this is it, like Malcolm X is speaking to me directly. You know, because we actually because we were so oppressed, we were so the words are present, because we find any friendship anyone who would say a nice word, we will give the life of them, you know, any Rakhine who might say, You know what, you are a better color than the other color and he will say you are my best friend because we couldn't we couldn't even comprehend he is saying technically saying you're a better doctor, the other dog we couldn't comprehend that we were like, wow, this guy, you know, I have this guy at least this I know, this is my friend. Regardless, yeah, regardless of that Fed actually take me as a friend or not, you know?
Brad 43:23
That's, I mean, that's an incredible level of indoctrination. To To have and to carry around with you and then later to have to realize like, like, oh my god like, this is this is below the minimum standard. And and we used to, you know, praise it and we used to we used to be so happy to have something so basic.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 43:48
This Yeah. I mean, let me put like this is in Rakhine, right. And I give you a let me give you a little example in Australia. Now, this is no longer Rakhine. This is Rakhine. invoca. This is some of the Rakhine in Australia, and the so called Democracy Act democratic democracy activist 1988 1980's generation we call it at a generations activist. Now after after I left Burma in 1998. I left Octo in 1996 when I was 16. And anyway, and I thought, you know, if we had democracy, then our life would be different. So I dedicated my entire youth to learn about democracy to learn about, you know, organizing campaigns and all that and you know, wearing Aung San su chi chi It's everywhere, never missing her birthdays and praying for her everywhere, in our prayers and joining any movement that possibly we can or will sometime we were accepted from Thailand, from Malaysia, and when I ended up in Australia as well. So in Australia, I was able to do it more openly. So, you know, especially after the, you know, several revolution, that in 2007, during 2007, I was more involved in terms of advocating for human rights for all Burmese and, you know, the release of Aung San su chi 's and for the democracy and all that, you know, there were a lot of people who would accepted me as the comrade as the, you know, cool campaigner or fighter. There are others who will ridicule me as well. But I never take it. But this time, I my level of understanding against racism is is much better than when, you know, the level I was in Rwanda say, you know, I've started to feel that how they are trying to, you know, take advantage of me as a, you are lower than us, you know, or the treatment they had and all this. But I have equal power now, I have same rights as they have in Australia. So, but because my intention was to over to focus on the eliminate, you know, the dictatorship, let's say, we want to have democracy. I ignored this faxed. But when 2012 massacre happened, people don't know about 2012 massacre, because, you know, we were to focus on the transition. You know, the international community ignored the 2012 massacre against Rohingya people in Rakhine State. Yeah. I tried to it was you know, it was almost worse than the 2017 massacre. Towns, they wiped out the entire Muslim population, like top view, like, you know, they were all in the camps, for example, in town, major town of situate and bok Dora, and even iMedia Mia only so many towns, village and villages were wiped out. And, you know, it's quite a strange limited, those villager resettled by the Rakhine people, no central American people. So, at that time, when I was trying to reach out to those comrades who we fought together for many, many, many years for the last campaign together for many, many years for democracy, they would they blocked me in, in social media, they blocked my number. They will not talk to me.
Brad 48:54
But so so let's talk about the 2012 massacre, then because that's you're completely correct. It's not something that that most people in the international community talk about or even know about. So, contextually, this is the 2010 election, such as it was, was held the NLD boycotted the election. And the the notionally civilian government comes into power, I think, in 2011 and 10, insane, who, you know, he's a military general and then he quits his job as a military general, so that he can become a civilian quote unquote, civilian president. So it's early stages of this of this pseudo democracy and Myanmar begins opening up things start improving market start improving, you know, opportunities to travel start happening, and then 2012. We have this incident. So, the one very important question was this now being instigated by the central authority in Myanmar, or was this being led predominantly by the They were kind people.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 50:01
I was led by broken people. Okay. It was predominantly liberal kind people. It was in the fact wherever military presence now that the military actually use this in the advantage as well, right. But in some places military actually gives some protection to Boeing, for example, in docto because we could bribe the the the general in that barracks to come and protect us. So, from Australia, I send money to young gone to communicate and like overnight to send, you know, military to protect our village. However, in other places, the police not necessarily the military, but police in the Para Military or who's or those who are Rakhine are actually participated with the Rakhine mobs in burnings and killings of Rohingya people. in Jammu, that's the case in Scituate, that was the case. And you know, end up hundreds of 1000s people, almost 150,000 IDPs in Scituate now. And many other IDPs as well in around other part of the Rakhine kind of state.
Brad 51:40
So I think it's pretty significant, though, that the military, even though the military was not the ones responsible for this, the military would not defend, you know, ostensibly, Myanmar people would not defend you on principle, they would only defend you if if you bribe them to do so.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 51:57
Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. So the the sentiment of, you know, the years and years of propaganda. The Rakhine not only Rakhine the entire Myanmar has this feeling that that disbelief that the drawings are actually dangerous for our country. They are because that's what we're telling them right this propaganda they came from Bangladesh, they are invaders, they just did like this is the the signature propaganda slogans and everywhere I hear is the same slogans India is essentially the Nazy propagated against Jews in one war before after World War One. In other places, too, I can give many examples like that, you know, they procreate unusually more. And it was very easy, because you're Muslims, and that was the period, you know, the Muslims were in famous everywhere in the world, after particularly the the World Trade Center attacks, and the terrorist attack on the World twist recenter and mainstream media. So the name Muslim is itself became a problematic name, just to be a Muslim, right? And on top of that, that is the sanka. The I mean, the monks and the military and the bureaucracy and the literacy, literature and newspaper, everything. And you have nothing to do counter all these arguments, right. You can't even claim yourself as Rohingya, you can't even say the name you will be arrested. And to the point that if you say the name Rohingya, and you're arrested, you could face 17 to 40 years of jail. So, there was these anti Rohingya sentiments was widespread already by 2012. So calling names like rats, snakes, you know, all these genocidal terms, you know, it is it is okay to kill a Rohingya because they are rats, cockroaches, the ugliest of this is what the the Burmese embassy in Taiwan I think Hong Kong was for good. He said it, right. So entire permits come population. Think the ranges are the Oh, and the other thing, they said reason migrant. And often they will come the by saying in our lifetime. Yeah. And these are people who are in their late 30s or 40s. It's been generations, you know, so the entire purpose population actually uploaded to 2012 and 2006 and 2000. In sorry. 2016 17 massacre.
Brad 55:41
Yes. I remember that. I was I was there when that happened. But it's I'm just wondering why why the Rohingya because the the Muslim element, that's very clear. And we see groups like you know, Mamata and before matha we had the whatever they will call the 969 movement, or something along those lines, I can't remember exactly. And they're anti Muslim rhetoric is and always has been very strong. And that's that's clear, but there are other Muslim groups in Myanmar like in Yangon alone, you know, I used to walk to work at on sand stadium, there is a there is a very large masjid. And there are Rohingya but many, many of the people there are not are not Ranger. Many of those people were migrants are descendants of migrants from northeastern India, many people coming from places like Fujairah so there are Muslim communities, there are Muslim communities in Shan State. The Rohingya seem to be particularly targeted. The erasure of the Rohingya name of this very identity seems to be unique. I haven't heard of this happening with other groups within Myanmar. So it's, it's I'm just wondering, how did the Rohingya become such a specific target for the country for a number of reasons.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 57:06
First of all, this is obviously the money it is the creation the fear of Rohingya against Burmese people or creation of Rakhine, you know, for example, 1982 Law was actually proposed and written by Rakhine co written by Rakhine. So there was so many propagandists were told or spread by Rakhine. And secondly, this is the Rohingya is the only group that is ethnically belong to the land which they deny, because Burma and Rakhine had the same policy, which is a now has the same policy. So one country, one nation, one religion policy. The Burma was also well, you can have a few people here and there who will not claim equal rights, let's say because, you know, none of those Muslims group are you claim an ethnic ethnicity? Right. They are very happy, saying We are citizens. And for your viewers, you probably understand this for your viewers in Burma, just citizens mean you are second class citizens, unless you are affiliated or associated with another ethnic group. If you are granted for gutscheine, you may be persecuted to because you claim greater rights from the military and Burmese in the midst dominant or you know, the supremacy part, even for the Rohingya is because we claim that we are part of this law we are indigenous to this land. And we also that also mean that raccoons and the Burmese they both know. Rakhine is a culturally linguistically different from from from Burmese people. People are running Yes. Alright. And and they are, you know, the kind of was, I mean, let's put it this way, or con, was invaded by Burmese in 1780. I think it was 1788. Anyway, and then 1828 The British was in British invaded Rakhine. So technically, the Burmese has the Rakhine under the colony only for about 40 years. Therefore, in that 40 years there was a lot of demography change had happened to put more people, you know, by the Burmese invaders. So, if they don't crash Rohingya as a name, they are political. In, in later on, they will start to claim that political right of the indigenous right. So that's what they didn't want. And obviously, that's the Muslim element as well.
Brad 1:00:55
So, so let's move forward. So 2012, we have this enormous massacre, but predominantly, it perpetrated by the Rakhine people themselves, with the Burmese military, letting it happen, but not actively engaged in it. Five years later, were in 2017. This is not a long period of time. But this time, it seems that the Burmese military was very, very much engaged, and was very much directly responsible for a lot of the killings directly responsible for a lot of the rapes directly responsible for a lot of the arson, and, of course, directly responsible for three quarters of a million people having to escape across the border to Bangladesh. What happened in those five years to galvanize the military? And my understanding is the American people are not friends with the Burmese military to begin with. It just seems that in this case, they were willing to work together for perhaps the first time, like what what happens in five years to make such a radical change?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:02:03
If you would remember, after developments, Tadasana and 12. There was a lot of attention, international attention started to get better, because before that there was nobody even heard of Rohingya. All this persecution, as I was describing during my childhood was almost unknown to many people. Many people mean I'm talking about people who are in a journalist and Human Rights activist and all that, who are actually working for Mr. Democracy, wasn't aware of it, even the permits themselves. A lot of the members themselves wasn't aware of this level of prosecutions happening in our country. Now after 2012, this international outcry, let's say, particularly for Muslim countries, you know, and there was some, even Obama came and, you know, we campaigned so hard to Obama to say the name Rohingya, at least in the US in his speech in Yangon, but he came to beat on Suchi all that add pieces, there was a booming resentment. And if you remember, when after 2012 incidents in its massacre in against Rohingya in Rakhine, there was also a massacre in Mattila in that is the heart of Burma in Yangon as well against Muslims and the burning schools, you know, all that. So there is this anti Muslim was was brewing, right. Yeah. And the Muslims were proving and on the other hand, after 2012, the Rohingyas has completely given up their hope, like myself that, you know, democracy might change our faith, and we realize that is not the case even absurd. Soji we looked at, as, you know, a beacon of hope for, for Dummies people, for humanity even had completely denied the existence of the Rohingya people. Then there was a group of people who says, you know, what we're going to have to look at take these things are in our own hands, and people started to taking up arms and they this is the only time in last 40 years, I think any Rohingya group that has attacked military directly. And the military had a lot of public support, and already, and the records are on their site in this campaign. So they say let's finish it. Let's, you know, do this and like mail like said it's unfinished business. So the Burmese and Rakhine has this idea that we will eliminate the entire Rohingya thing from our land. And if you think about it, they were successful over the years. I mean, 2017 a million people cross the border and 10,000 people something have died. But today, over 80% of Rohingya population is outside of the country. So in other words, they have already successfully driven out or killed many Rangers. We are, we will we do know the exact population, but almost 4 million people are outside of the country. Now. Inside there are about 600,000, I think left. In Bangladesh alone, in the camp 1.2 to 1.3 million. We don't know the exact number some says Whopper to some serpent. So 1.5 This is only in the cap, there are many wingers who lived in other parts of Burma, Sri Bangladesh as well. We have 100 Sorry, we have close to 200,000 refugees in Malaysia, we have almost 30 to 40,000. In Thailand, we have similar number in India, we have a fortune generations with us still in, in Pakistan, just recently, a researcher from us. He told me he is his estimate. He estimate in Pakistan, they'll probably be 1.5 million doing this in Pakistan. And other parts of Middle Eastern countries, Saudi Arabia and many other countries. The the estimation is again, about from 400,000, only in Saudi Arabia. And we don't know the exact data or set numbers in in in UAE and Qatar in Kuwait in other parts of countries, including Turkey. Gulf. So this is not just 2007 2017 is the last attempt, if you like it's there were so many operation that had happened. So the 2017 is the continuation of those operations.
Brad 1:08:24
And so, let's look at this sort of the notional respite between 2017 operation, but before the 2021 coup, what, what is the reality? Like I mean, most Rohingya, as you describe are no longer in the country. They're internationally trying to find refugee status. They're trying to get some sort of citizenship, I assume most without any sort of citizenship that stateless. Many, as you say, living in the refugee camps, particularly around Cox's Bazar in Bangladesh, that the number that I've heard is 1.5 million. So a lot of different experiences. But what what would you what would you say really characterizes those those four years? Was there any change in sentiment in Myanmar did the Rohingya in Myanmar think, okay, maybe maybe things are going to get better again? And did the Rohingya internationally find that they were being supported find that their cause was was being defended by by foreign countries, by NGOs, by by AIDS groups or, or was it just a different type of persecution?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:09:36
Event 17
Brad 1:09:37
to 2021.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:09:45
I think the the arrogance the hatred has boosted after 2017 at the to the government, particularly when their mother Sue, which for years, she's you know, I described this as a monster superb. It will manifest some of my friends, the listeners, but when she completely denied the genocide and even destroy cities, it's actually given license to her followers who already were brainwashed by the military against him guess, prejudiced against where he is. Today, the point when I went back to Yangon briefly 2017, just for a week. You know, I put a lot of people don't think I'm Rohingya because I have pretty different physical features that look a bit more different, let's say, and if I say I'm Australian, they just go to therapy, believe me, that I'm Australian. And I would join a lot of conversations. This has happened in 2012 15. I've visited Yangon and also to go to 17. After right after the mass, Exodus, yeah. The sentiments those, you know, like SeaBIOS. And like rowdy news, and other news outlets. It was very scary the way I started when there's it's like it's although it's almost like killing Rohingya was the patriotic act. They were doing the right thing, good thing for the country. Or a dehumanizing. And if you look at any articles from 2012 to 21, of Robert do all of them pretty pretty anti Rohingya, and even academics. Monks, and, you know, I was in the conversation that this is the same rhetoric happened in 2012. It is, it is scary to say how similar it is. I was in a compensation department 17. And near the in to be exact, you know, in Ringgold sales, sales selling crap with a group of Australian return a group of university students and some academics and activists and politicians. And we were talking about, you know, about human rights and how to improve human rights situations in Burma and all that. And that I will just throw a word to say, what you guys think about what about the human rights of the Rohingya? someone's like, bacteria or terrorist? And I would say, I mean, surely all can't the whole population, you think, oh, but But you know, these Muslims are dangerous. Everywhere they go, they make the brain problem. You see entire world because of the Muslims the problems. And then I said, Do you think the Banshee was Muslims, and they was Muslim, to bring the massacres in, in Kuta? You know, revolutions and 1980's revolution and development, mass massacres and mass killings of Koreans and the chains. And do you think the mute was Muslim to the participant different case? Of course, there's this is between 2017 and 2021. However, the international attention was shifted. You know, kids started to register with iCj and started to, you know, register. It would have a court in ICC and including the America announcing this as a genocide. So it has shifted with no changes in the ground. It just rhetorical. In some words, and some were opinion shift, or somewhere maybe policy shift, if you like, but not real. Not toward the real solution.
Brad 1:15:03
Yeah, of course. I mean, that's a very typical sort of response. Yeah, but But I take your point, it's, I was not reading the articles, right when I was when I was there. i Because, you know, the the the news that I read is mostly, you know, English language news and and so that's a little bit different. Obviously, I'm getting news from Amnesty International articles. I'm getting used from Reuters, I'm getting all this sort of stuff. And, and most of the people that I talk to whether they're foreigners or whether they're Burmese, naturally, most of those people speak fluent English. And because of that, they have access to the same media that I read. But when I spoke to those of my friends who had weaker English, who were who were mostly reading Myanmar news, their attitudes towards the Rohingya were, were extreme. And I remember seeing one guy, and he actually spoke fluent English, like he was he was like, Western educated, but he was saying, all this is necessary. And he even shared a video showing your Arsa training with with, like, I didn't know what you would describe them as maybe Mujahideen or something in Pakistan. And I was watching this video going like, you, you realize that these people are running around with with literal sticks in their hands wouldn't cut outs of guns that they're not, they don't even have guns. And he's saying like, no, but you know, it's a terrorist training camp, and it's okay, so how big is our size? Like, you know, 500 people, maybe 750 people, most of whom live in Bangladesh. So how many artists are there in Myanmar's maybe 150? Okay, so to get 150 people, you you push three quarters of a million people over the border. The mathematics don't make sense here. This is not this doesn't make sense. But but he would just dig in his heels, he would just push back on. It's like, no, no, it's, you know, that they're training terrorists, and the and they're trying to do all these things. And it was really terrifying to watch how strong these these views and these attitudes became. And then the other thing that I observed, I don't know whether you saw the signs. The signs were in Yangon. I would say probably in 2019. When en su chi was going to the ICJ Yes. And the signs were like the English version of the road signs said, we support our leader, Aung San su chi. The Burmese version of the sign, though, was what was it like up our page as well? Right, so it wasn't even it wasn't even we support it's less support or like commanding people to support and, and all that, like I had a lot of Burmese students who are so proud like onsen. switchy, is going to defend our country in the ICJ against these accusations and like, these are not accusation like these are facts, like we saw the pictures like we saw what happened. This is not a good look. But it was discussing with my friends that the the feeling was very much that the average person, even if even if they thought that that what happened in Rakhine was wrong. The average person seemed to be so terrified of criticizing the NLD government because of this, this feeling that if I criticize the NLD government, that must mean that I'm supporting the military dictatorship. And I don't do that. So I must support the NLD government. And it was really difficult by trying to have conversations about this. I remember in Yangon at that time was very frustrating for a lot of us foreigner and and Myanmar. Like, it was very frustrating, trying to have an intelligent discussion about this I just watching the effect that the propaganda had on people was just it was a perverse experience, I imagine for you it would be much, much much much worse. But even for me not reading the news, it was terrible.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:19:19
Yeah. I mean, imagine you know, you Rohingya and you have gone through all this suffering yourself. And then you're trying to have the conversation, trying to be neutral as as possible. And you know, not a defense officer or hanger is on your face right to say things and it was very difficult, but I always believed, you know, I always believed there is intrinsic goodness in humanity and also evolve Of course, And we I always believed that, you know, one of a very, very respectful person, the one who has respect so much of human rights lawyer as well. She even said they're going to express some time hopelessness about the Burmese. And you know, the Rakhine people, they will see would say, you know, if, if it still is school systems is still possible. And you need social engineering this first time I heard that word actually from her. You need social engineering. And that will, you know, things change, and, you know, you can coexist again. But I don't believe that anymore, you know, I mean, it's pretty hard for me to believe now, because it's not, is if I mean, you know, what, sometimes people ask questions like, Why, why, to the thing like that, even yesterday, someone asked me, say, like, how could they do that? Why would they do that? Right? Like, and I will say, when faced evil has no Reason No. Why, I mean, when some politician might have power reason, but sometimes we don't understand the justification for such evil. And when a people, a group of people go to that extent, I mean, even Aung San su chi herself. I mean, what she did is she did because she knew the popular support is against her popular protest against Rohingya. She couldn't say, even if she's wish to say, if I want to believe that she was any good in her. She knew that she would lose all her books. And she knew the entire population is against this. And she played that along, right. And period, fortunately, the international community thought, you know, let's give a chance to this, as you rightly mentioned, pseudo democracy to thrive, then we will have better human situation for this. So in other word, international community has failed us massively by what would you say is like a sacrificial animal for the ceremony of democracy and thrive in Myanmar?
Brad 1:23:07
I think that's a really interesting way to put it. It, you know, sacrifice on that altar. It's, it's performative. And, and I know, that's something that you want to want to discuss now in the post coup period. Because we finally see, you know, the Myanmar people have been pushed as far as they can be pushed. And, and the most stupid thing that the military ever did was give people genuine hope for democracy before taking it away. That was dumb. And now we see a nationwide civil war. And in that, in that civil war, we see a lot of social change we see. And we recently interviewed a feminist activist, talking about social change with regards to views on women and LGBT. But also we see shifts we see the national unity government, making these overtures towards the Rohingya community talking about repatriation, talking about recognizing the Rohingya as, as a legitimate Myanmar ethnic group. We see all of these things. And that's, that's definitely helping the international image of the revolution. It's definitely a good thing to see. But I know that you you are of the view that a lot of what is being perceived is not being translated into into real action. So can you can you tell us a little bit about what's going on?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:24:44
Who is energy you know, energy is the same cabinet that was with Aung San su chi, not in 15 to 20. And they were Every rhetoric against well related to get what they were against. And they will say we don't have any Rohingya we don't recognize it without you know these are the people who was also introducing this promoting NVC card national verification card can you imagine giving the national verification card to indigenous community people? Now, these, this group when their situation change? I know for the facts in many offices where they go to the first thing of the first question I was asked to them was, do you? What do you what's your view on Rangga? Offices? I mean, in international advocacy, you know, when they tried to get recognitions with Australians or with any other governments, or even for fundings in many places, the first thing the international community ask is, What is your view about Ranga? And the first thing a few ministers did, what, oh, by the way, let me not acknowledged some sincerity that was not for Manucci, but from the public to know those symbols will cause civil disobedience movement, some of the public genuinely, you know, apologized from Rohingya people for for what we did for, you know, when you were suffering, we didn't do anything. And some of those voices are genuine, I think. And I would love to believe that, as I said, I believe goodness in your humanity, it has some some of those, but later on is become a political statement. A lot of members of energy, including back then forgot it stayed the information minister, completely lying, is regret for not standing up when the rig is we're being prosecuted. That is what this is what exactly a also use the same tactic to gain sympathy from the international community. And to look good against the enemy. That is a Burmese they're sorry, the military. Right is the military who did it not us?
Brad 1:27:39
So the minister like so the Minister of MOF see it in a new G is tailing out. Is he the one you're referencing? Yes. Yes. So you're saying that he he's being disingenuous? Is Ramos? Really? Absolutely.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:27:59
Wow. Even you, I mean, you when you hear his I think was his forgotten something. Four minutes or something that he does video, if you like, the first thing is he was his minister. He said Minister information and he said, Well, we didn't have any information about it. That's why in a barrel, and also the terms that we were using, for example, for long, long time, they were first they will say, you know, what we will recognize during as as refugees. Sorry, not a free sorry, as a citizen. And then, very recently, they say, we will take did not even say that we will abolish 1982 citizenship law. After long push, they just said we abolish 82 law. And then now, I think, I don't think they still say we will recognize, like officially said we will look as Agnes ethnic groups will not. By the way, what I'm trying to say here is why because we I have personally dealt and experience almost two decades of democracy campaign in Munich, for for Myanmar, in many parts of the body part of the world. What I just want you to realize is what you're saying, now, is not what they're going to implement. Because let's say for example, we will, let's say it is a we will recognize Rangers as ethnic groups. Now when this they would have to do this in Parliament, right and further in case when there is proper democracy and of cups and there is some MPs saying no we don't we don't recognize it and these back and forth arguments will go for another decades and that will turn into centuries and we will perish by the time because it's not like you know what brewing is a citizens of acid not entire country so please with that active today within a new G and forgettable within a new G even the campaigners of N ug disagree with this. Above, we can't get the blank check. That's what they call it. Recognizing this indigenous group as as, like equal citizen plus say, Yeah, even I even I even argued, said, You know what I would support even the idea that there wouldn't be no ethnicity status, everybody will be equal. You can have you can have you can call whatever ethnicity you want. You know, you can have your traditions, your language, but legally, everybody who do the same. Just because you're ethnic, you will have different class of citizenship, diff that is abolished. I don't think we would even argue about any ethnicity and dislike this because everybody's the same. Don't even put your ethnicity name on the on the on your on the ID identification card. It's everybody's equal, right. So even that is not something they are ready to accept easily, if you like, rhetorically some level they will accept and I can hear you know, that sometimes even I feel like they are mocking when they say we will recognize us as citizen.
Brad 1:31:53
Have you have you? I'm wondering, have you had any dealings with the national unity government? Or do you know, whether the national unity government has reached out to Rohingya community leaders to try to find, you know, what, what changes need to be made?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:32:09
No, they have some members of Rohingya community who were very much unknown until very recently, to the Rohingya community. To show that, look, we have members of the community as well, in our government. Okay, it's very event, the process is very, you know, disenchanted. Yeah. And, I mean, come on. Like, you can't just pick someone from the roadside and say, This is our minister, because he's willing, or his another ethnic group that we are supposed to be friendly with now. And, and what they say is a district saying it, this is the same thing what Aung San has said to the ethnics, you know, when during the pain loan agreement, let's deal with bigger problem. Let's deal Oh, this actually does remind me of another composition. By the way, let's put them into this, let's get rid of British would have been no agreement and we will sort out our internal problems later. Right. In 1999 90, you know, when they were campaigning for the election, that the first time the NMC code of the party was formed and you have some big concerns which he became the leader of NLD. A group of the Rohingya delegation visited Aung San su chi, one of them was my grandfather, my cousins, my I mean when we say my grandfather, not my dad's father, his cousin basically okay with him, that's why we know I know this in detail as I was, so they proposed we will these are different ring leaders from different different towns influential leaders and also they will have their own political party you know, formed political parties to participate in the election. So we will campaign all the boats for you for an LT against anything any military presentation. What would you give us? Would you at least restore our equal citizenship? This is what Aung San su chi had to say at the time. Let's deal with bigger problem. We will deal with a smaller problem. later this is test why, you know, I've perfectly remember in 2007, I always had this thing as well, although I was I wanted to believe that's what I believed, I think, democracy and the offsets, which is coming to the power would change our situation. Because I was so desperate, perhaps we didn't see any other option. And we didn't want to pick up guns, you know, or fight. For whatever reason, I wanted to believe, although a new tip down that she's not going to do anything for us, because in 2007, I was invited to speak in a school gathering in Sydney University. So a group of law students and also international relations students and others who are also involved in the, in the campaign for democracy, Myanmar. And one of the question was, Do you believe? Because back then I wasn't talking about running, I was talking about, you know, democracy in general for Myanmar. And the question was, Do you believe having democracy and authenticity coming to the power will change Reagan situations? And this is what I had to say at the time. I was he was spontaneous, I didn't even have to think I said, uncensored, you be less suitable than the devil we have now. Yeah. That's what the idea. So why, again, NLT, let's say NLT, and ug, now, it doesn't matter whoever next coming, they have the same hatred against Muslims in general, and particularly ranges. So I don't believe any more chanting of two governments in Myanmar will change the fate of Ranga.
Brad 1:37:12
You know, as you were talking, he reminded me that two days ago, as I said, I interviewed Linda from kin, it was a women's rights activist, predominantly a women's rights activist in Myanmar. And she was telling me the exact same thing that you're telling me that when she tries to advocate for women's rights, she tries to advocate for LGBT rights. She tries to advocate for minority rights in general, the response is, we have to win the revolution first, and we can deal with rights later, we can deal with minority groups later. And it seems that this the cycle is strong, because no one seems to understand that winning the revolution is securing these rights. Like without the securing of minority rights, women's rights, ethnic rights, religious rights, gay rights, what have you. Without that you haven't won the revolution. You've just put a different group of people in charge of the same system.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:38:19
Yes. It was. I actually, I said exactly what you just said, you know, when I talk to other people, I mean, to be honest, we have a group of rowing educated youth who still believe the change of political system in Myanmar, would bring change to our situation as well. And that's the belief that I had in in before 2012 Even you know, somewhat until 2017. Now, I try to explain to them is changing the driver doesn't change the the alleged check the vehicle changing the driver doesn't change the condition of your travel or your mode of travel. Yes. Is the word energies still the broad and Youjizz attention is still Burmese domination. They still want the country under their rule the court the supremacy and with all the conservative racial and religious ideas and that they want to call it democracy.
Brad 1:39:46
In this this, I assume also extends to to the AAA because beyond the N ug the American army joined the three brotherhood Alliance they they help to initiate or pray 110 27 So the American army currently is enjoying relatively high sort of popularity across the country for that for that very significant contribution. But I interviewed Nathan Russa about three days ago. And we were discussing the the satellite imagery in Rakhine State showing that as the American army had re conquered territory from the Talmud or the military, specifically, the town of booty down to but also the villages around it. There had been a campaign lasting for about a month of arson against Rohingya villages and Rohingya areas. So it seems that the American army also on one day might be saying that they that they feel bad about what happened and that they're, they're willing to make peace with the Rohingya. But we have, you know, in May of this year, we saw we saw these attacks the discontinued campaign by the American army against the Rohingya. So what do you think of the leadership of the American army or of the American people in general, or Rakhine, if you prefer? Do you think that their attitudes are likely to change or do you think that they will never voluntarily make a safe place for Rohingya in Rakhine?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:41:27
Well in the short answer is they will never make or they will never make a safe place for leg is broken. And it is, it is clear, I mean, it is like written on the wall in a huge big letters in every statement that make and every time they speak anyone by the way for your audience. To explain, I myself is not formally an educated person, and just passionately involved in these things. And I've learned a few things here and they're not trained in any way professionally. Even I can see the writings are there when there's speak integrity in within whenever they talk about running the reference to either Bengali the reference to either Muslims and all these things, this is one site, you know, when they are communicating with international communities on the ground. They I mean, there are so many atrocities, they are committing against Rohingya people there kidnapping, arbitrary arrests, like like ransoms, you know, like 2000, just last year, in, in some towns, I won't say the name because I don't want to jeopardize it because, as I said, they will their family members will be in danger. I know people personally, are taken because their family members were either in America or in Australia and other places, resettled refugees from Malaysia. They will kidnap them and say, You got to pay, you know, particular ransom like thing I think, but back then is a bit of money. Now the Myanmar money is the inflated thing means nothing anymore. 1000s mean nothing anymore. But it let's put it in, in American dollars term. It's like $25,000 $20,000 You know, people that I know personally. Now, I also have engaged a few NGOs for negotiation. So let's start with some sort of talk. Because I always believed, you know, there is doesn't matter even there is conflicts succeeded end of the day distribution is on the table. Always. Some sort of negotiation has to happen. So I always believe in having these compositions and his talks. I actually train people, I think, you know, I got myself training, how do we talk? Or how do we start, you know, what are the our rights and things are? And I also provide within my limited knowledge that I have these trainings to other Rohingya youth and some of my students and some of sorry, towards students, not even the right word. I think some of my trainees, let's say, and some of my colleagues and different people have engaged in different groups of Rakhine, or as representative in different countries are members in different countries. All of the compositions you know, end up in this way, say, there is no Rohingya, we will never recognize Rohingya. And we will accept you as citizens. In other words, the wait, they don't they don't say it, you will not have political say basically what they say is this is literal word they say.
Brad 1:46:07
If you accept our rule is to me you get citizenship but subordinate to somebody else.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:46:11
Yes. If you accept our role, that means you have no political right. But you can stay as a second class citizens in a country's even that is only those who are in the country right now, whenever we talk about whenever we'll talk about this another group only in in January, this year, we had this talk in Kuala Lumpur with a group of people. And after they said this, I wasn't directly on the table, though. But I'm involved with the team that was talking to them. And they were asking us to do a second round of talks and asked this question as to what about repatriation of those who are in Bangladesh or, because remember, those who are in Saudi Arabia, they're still stateless. In Pakistan, just stateless. They're not there, they're leaving for and they can be arrested and they didn't didn't exist, they literally don't exist. In Malaysia, don't doubt that they don't exist.
Brad 1:47:31
In the world, so what can be done?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:47:34
So when we were asked to how, what about repatriation of this people going home of these people to say, first of all, we don't know all of these people are actually doing it off actually belong to a kind of not. So in other words, there was denying the all of these people actually linked with with with Rakhine, that's including myself, let's say. And secondly, what the other group has proposed, oh, we can do verification, because it is a new government. It will take time is minute, another 40 years, 100 years. So, to further your question, what is the solution? And I think the only solution is rowing is has to have their own country.
Brad 1:48:36
Really?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:48:37
Yeah. Because I don't think or I can't even say Oh, because the other is also also we can't live under the mercy of Rakhine or the Burmese. I would even challenge anyone who would say, No, no, you can you have to leave and or with the Burmese or in the in the greater good. Also the union of Burma or the separate country. I mean, sorry, the Rakhine, with Rakhine, I would say. Would you give your personal guarantee that for the atrocity that has been committed over the decades and centuries, for the matter, that will not happen again.
Brad 1:49:40
Do you think it would be sufficient to have not necessarily an independent country but let's say an autonomous Rakhine, an autonomous Rohingya state where whether governance would be Rohingya and the majority of the population would be Rohingya and it would be distinct from the rest Matter of Rakhine State. Do you think that could be a solution?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:50:10
I have actually proposed this solution. It's 22. Well, I actually was proposed this to the energy meeting. And then I realized, you know, that can also be revoked easily. If they have military power, because remember, Kashmir had that condition, Christmas was the same, but the status of their thing was revoked. Unless, you know, that state even though we be part of, let's say, greater Burma, but we have a long military coup.
Brad 1:50:59
Yeah, it would, it would probably require because even an independent country can still be invaded, if they have the military power.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:51:07
Yeah. But invading countries not saying from the bulking autonomous internal, yep.
Brad 1:51:15
Status?
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:51:18
Yes. Because internationally, they're no longer even though I know they're of countries are happening. However, they still cannot do it by illegal means.
Brad 1:51:33
So you would say the only strong solution to the problem is an independent Granger country.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:51:41
I will say this exercise this the article of self determination. To other ways, where is the potential if the Burmese are not willing to not only know when to protect but adamant to wipe out the type of pollution and raccoons are the second worst in many instance, then? I mean, would it be possible to say Jewish to live on the Nazis? I don't think so. I think the only active Yeah. I think the only solution now is the the separate dependent dependent nation or if the only safe solution even for Rakhine, for example. Because even if let's say if we have some political situation, a political compromise that happened. But I don't think there are kind of will be peace because there's the site and the sentiments still. There and many Rakhine leaders will come out, as let's say, right wing extremist leaders come up and then the oppressed going to revolt anyway. You know, they will never have peace either. I think this is even good for Rakhine to let an area like to have the ruling is governed by themselves and themselves. I don't propose like, oh, we have to have entire purely ring. I don't I'm not those. I don't know, there's there's a term, you know, to race. You have to be only Rohingya people. I don't propose that. What I'm proposing is there should be in an area where the ring is safe. And then you know, they were kind of living together as well. And, you know, probably there will be some part of area where we're kind of will be rowing as to, and there'll be some part of the rowing area that will be recounts as well living together. But having rowing you have an estate, where they can come on themselves and they can bring this displace people back home and start rebuilding.
Brad 1:54:28
So I think that I think that brings us quite sort of holistically to or naturally to a concluding point with the history of the Rohingya in Myanmar and the events that have led to the mass exodus and prolonged subjugation and now a prognosis for the future. So before we conclude today, I first want to thank you very much for coming on and sharing your your experiences and your insights with our audience, I think we all know who the recent changes are But there have been massive gaps in our knowledge.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:55:07
Yeah. Thank you. And also, I wanted to draw your audience as well. Because, you know, there's so much information we want to provide, and we haven't. It's been almost two hours we are talking right. And we time we jumped, providing information. So I would suggest to do so please, you know, to little bit of like proper research, to know more informations. And just because I'm saying it has to be correct, it's my truth, what I'm saying an absolute truth, I'm not, there's no lies at all. But please do more research and, you know, to get to know more about these things, and so that you can support the right course.
Brad 1:55:57
And I think that ties in well, because you may or may not be aware of this the end of our episodes, we always just invite our guests to share a direct message to the audience, something for the audience to think about or consider or, or discuss as they go about their day. So if you have any specific message or specific thoughts that you want our audience to have and to consider, I would invite you to share those ideas now.
Sujauddin Karimuddin 1:56:24
Oh, I say, anyway, again, thank you for listening this podcast. Brad, thank you so much for giving me an opportunity to share. And the audience, I would say be, you know, this is the right moment to cite with the Rohingya people, because there's these people has been left nick or neglected for centuries, if not decades. And I think this is time for them to it's well overdue time for them to have a place where they can they can call or the way they can live safely and call home. And that is of course Rakhine, where they are relocated from. So please support the rodeo course and to get to know during the course better, please, again, you know, reach out to many ranking people who would lead you to a lot of other useful information so I guess.
Host 1:57:40
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