Transcript: Episode #278: Silent No More
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:00
On this episode of The Insight Myanmar podcast, we're bringing you something special, a behind the scenes look at the Fourth International Conference on Burma Myanmar studies held in August 2024 at Chiang Mai University's Regional Center for Social Science and Sustainable Development. This event tackled some of Myanmar's most critical challenges, ongoing conflicts, peace processes, human rights and the impact of the 2021 coup. It was all about fostering research, dialog and advocacy for sustainable solutions. Now here's where it gets interesting. We were given exclusive access to the conference and even an office on site allowing us to record brief on the spot interviews with attendees. These interviews are different from our usual, long form episodes. As we conducted 10 minute grabs that cover a broad range of topics, we were able to reach out to a total of 18 different guests, all of which we're bringing to you in this four part series. A quick note, since we were recording right at the heart of the conference, you might hear some background sounds from the event itself. Our sound engineers work their magic to clean things up, but the audio quality may feel a bit different than our studio interviews. In any case, we hope that this just adds to the authenticity of the experience. And with that, let's get into the talks that follow. This episode is the second in the series, and we encourage you To listen to the one that came before it.
Saijai 2:02
You Hi. My name is Sai Jai. I used to be a Thai migrant in Myanmar. So I used to live in Myanmar for six years, and right after the coup, I moved back to Thailand. I helped started Myanmar witness. So we are an organization that documenting human rights abuse in Myanmar using open source technology, which is data available online. And yeah, right now I'm also helping the group starting a new project called Stop Online harm during the time at Myanmar witness, we see a lot of women who speak out against the coup and activists and journalists has been harassed online, and that's is the issue that I'm passionate about. When we talk to them, we see that a lot of them say that they suffer in silence. There's no support at the moment. There are some support when it's come to gender based violence, when it's physical, but when it's come to online, there's no support, and they cannot talk to the family. They cannot talk to their friends, their little shame. So yeah, so a lot of them suffer in silence. So yeah, what I wanted to do is to provide an online ambulance. So similar to an ambulance, right? So is this? Services that they could reach out, and we provide technical support on how to remove the content. We provide mental health support and also documenting the case.
Host 4:32
So this is a very important issue, and I'm very glad that you've been able to join us for a short look into this, and hope that we can do a longer conversation later and have a couple of follow up questions to learn more about what exactly is going on. The first question I asked you just before we started recording, but I'll ask you, for the benefit of the audience, the kind of online harassment, doxing, threats, et cetera, is this being seen against women, mainly on the side of the military? Or is it also happening on the side of the resistance, both side?
Saijai 5:02
So the issue that you mentioned is happening both sides, with the military and also the resistance. On the military, we see that it's symptomatic. So it's actually and it's happened more on telegram. So on telegram channel, you could see a lot of doxing that the military share personal information about the woman, their name, where they live, their identity, and yeah, share that on telegram channel the on the resistance side as well. So when there's some woman who criticize what is the resistance side doing, that woman has been harassed, both by men and women, that what we've been seeing not the half men, not just happening by men, but it's also happened by women as well. Women, doxing.
Host 5:46
Women? Exactly. Yeah. Now another question I have, we just talked about, if it's happening, how much on the military side and resistance side? Another way to look at it is, how much is this online harassment and doxing happening against men who happen to speak out, and how much against women do you have you found? Have you conducted any studies showing that all things being equal, women are more prone to the harassment?
Saijai 6:10
We have not done research on that, but from what we see, the harassment, the target woman is different from men. The harassment the target men is often targeted than what they said, the ideas and you know what have been done in the interview and the action, but the harassment that targeted women is often come because of their women. It's because of what they wear. It's because of their personal life. It's because of who they're dating. So we can see different type of harassment. And also these are the issue that's not just happening in Myanmar. I'm also doing research in Thailand, and I see this is happening in Thailand as well. In Thai parliament, people were criticizing the MP and harass them on the color of the dress that they wear to the parliament that day, and why this is important, because this is from what I talked to Myanmar women and also Thai women. A lot of them decided do not that they do not wanted to participate in politics anymore. They wanted to stop what they are doing and stop using social media, stop speaking up, stop taking part in the political work that they do because of this harassment. Why this is important? Because it's work, right? A lot of women we talked to, they decided that I closed all my social media I don't want to speak up, because when I speak up, there is this harassment, right? So why this is important is reduce the democracy it's reduce the participation of women in democratic process.
Host 7:45
Yeah, right. So this is making me wonder, what is it about our society that or human society in general today, that is making women more prone to these type of insidious attacks? And I want to preface that question by saying we're dealing with the same thing in America. It's not like we have any we have anything figured out. You look at what it takes for a woman leader like Kamala Harris or Hillary Clinton when they would run for the highest office, and the kind of pressure and scrutiny and types of well, they should have political scrutiny, but the kind of personal and appropriate scrutiny that they would have just because they were women that men were not subject to. So certainly, this is not something we've really worked out in Western society, either, and you're looking at tie in Burmese society. But as someone who studied this in such depth, I'm wondering if you have any any any reflections or insights into what it is in the nature of going after a woman in this way that you wouldn't go after a man in this way?
Saijai 8:47
Just to not to respond to your question directly? But I feel that it's really important for society to recognize that there are different harassment that happen with women and men. I think, like the first question, do you ask is really important for for the society to recognize that a lot of harassment that women receive is by like, a lot of like, I have a friend who is a woman and she wanted to go into politics, and the question that she had to think about whether to go into politics or to speak up against whatever military was, Are they gonna criticize me on my dating history. I need to go back to all my Instagram account and removing all the photos that I post. Are they going to talk about my children? Are they going to criticizing what I wear and are they going to criticizing my haircut style? Right? All this question. I don't think this is a question that men has to think about when they go into politics. So first, I think we need to recognize we are at different level when going into this space. Right? First Second to frame that a bit, I think we need to create a society that is safe for women to go in. Right? And then we need to recognize all these differences, I think it starts with recognize the challenges that women and men have, and after that, we need to create a space that is safe for women to go in, right. And by asking another female politician who going into Thai politics, she was telling me that when she brought this issue up or harassment that she might receive to the political party, the answer was, this is normal. You just need to deal with it like this is something that you just need to deal with it. It's something that you sign up for. But I think this is not acceptable answer, right? We cannot asking women to have to accept and facing this by sign up for being in this space, of course. So I think it's the question of, how could we create an environment that encouraged like, of course, we're talking about having more women in politics and having more women leaders, but we need to talk about, how could we create a safe space for women to be there and at the same time, if this harassment happened, how could we have a support system? Right? It's the similar with we have, we need to have a vaccine to prevent this to happen, but after this happen, we need to have something to tackle it, which, right now, I don't think as a society, we're thinking about this whole ecosystem, yet
Host 11:16
that's wonderful. It's so important that you're spreading awareness about this. I'm glad that we're playing a part in that, and that and that you're also being proactive in the preventative as well as what happens after these things take place. The last question I'd like to ask you is there's even though Burmese and Thai societies are similar in many ways, there's a fundamental difference in that one is far more stable than the other. And Burmese society, of course, is going through a revolution. And there has been one of the lines of argument in that revolution has been some that are pushing for that are saying, Hey, we're in an overall revolution. We need to be pushing for change in all quarters and our education system, the marginalized community, LGBT, gender equality, being one of them we need. Now is the time that we need to be doing this revolution the proper way, so that we make the changes. There's a pushback on that that says, okay, okay, don't get ahead of yourself. We need to topple the military. Once we topple the military, then we'll come back and we'll look at everything else, but let's not try to do everything at once. I'm sure this is a line of argumentation you've heard. How would you respond to the those who have the latter view?
Saijai 12:27
Great. I would respond to that by using analogy of building a house. So it's like, we're trying to build a house right now. And if your argument is like, okay, let's finish the house and we not don't need to care about the ingredients and materials that we're going to build the house. That's how it's going to collapse, right? Like, for example, if you're going to build a house and you need to find the right wood, the right semen, the right materials, and it's very important to build a nation that have a correct and strong foundation of gender equality, of like addressing audit issue. Why are you building it? So that's my answer. We cannot. We cannot fight for democracy if we don't have the right foundation and don't have the right materials and have other people participate in this process.
Host 13:13
And do you feel that the resistance is being receptive to this message?
Saijai 13:18
I cannot say for the resistance. I just said, I would say that there are a lot of people who like, agree with this approach of bringing the right materials to build the house. But of course, in the society, there are two sides, right? So, yeah, just keep Myanmar and your prayer and your thoughts, and don't forget about Myanmar. Yeah. Thank you. You.
Arabella 13:58
Sayagyi u ba Khin, network of organizations within Myanmar from the outside of Myanmar with support partners in Myanmar in terms of digital safety, through support of Myanmar specialists, we provide information to our partners about do's and don'ts in terms of communication, how to behave in terms of checks, physical checks In Myanmar, in terms of digital communication, online safety, organizational safety, we run assessments with organizations so the digital specialists can hint at weak points at organizations. May it be policies, may it be use of hardware, May. Be software to make sure our partners are as safe as it gets in this digital world. Because from experience, we know some of our partners are very smart. Have really great mostly younger people who are very tech savvy and can provide great digital safety for their own organizations. But sometimes people are pretty ignorant about digital threats, and we think their perception is, I don't see the threat. So there is no threat. But that's not true. It can be extremely dangerous if information leaks or if phishing emails or reports are used because a manager staff is not aware of that or whatever it is. So safety in the digital world is paramount for us. Another topic that's very important nowadays in working in this kind of environment is a safe storage of documents in Cloud Storage. A topic that we've been working on is proven scans of documents that later can be uploaded in a really, absolutely safe way, so that in the end, these documents, only the digital copies, but well documented, can be used for audited purposes, and the hard copies, the real papers, are not that important anymore. Or in a worst case, where an office is raided or where anything goes wrong, these papers can even be destroyed. That's a huge step, but we found that very important to make sure organizations in Myanmar don't have to keep paper documents which are probably causing a danger for them. Yeah, I wish you all stay safe and stay healthy.
Host 17:03
If I could ask a follow up question about the work you do, how much danger and risk do you find the partner organizations and individuals in Myanmar that you're supporting are in there's a danger for all that's my perception.
Arabella 17:19
So nobody can say, Oh, I am fine, because we have seen that partners thought to be fine, and all of a sudden it turned out they are not, and even if they try to be compliant or whatever. And then, of course, there are partners. It depends on the topics they are working and the areas they are working in, who know they are under under great threats.
Host 17:44
Can you comment on how sophisticated you see the regime's ability to be able to jeopardize digital safety and put people at risk through their their online methods, they just got better.
Arabella 17:56
To my knowledge, I think I'm not saying anything new if I say there's sophisticated support from the Chinese side coming right now. I refer to the Chinese firewall and VPNs not not being available easily in Myanmar. And I think it's a challenge for local organizations and for their international partners to provide safe, paid VPN systems that can help partners to navigate the current situation. Because one, one thing I want to say, don't use free VPNs. They are not safe. They are absolutely not safe. Because basically, you sell your you pay with your information, and that can be extracted by the companies that run the VPNs, and that might be exactly the guys you try to avoid.
Host 18:49
Do you know more about what the Chinese are doing to support the Myanmar regime, to be able to break into online spaces?
Arabella 19:00
They try to block any kind of software, all kinds of apps that that provide digital safety. That is the case with safe VPNs. For an example, not VPN, one of the best VPNs. It's to a certain degree. Apparently, the case with proton mail and proton VPN, it is the case was, but we are not 100% sure. It's still a trying and testing phase with some Google functions, and certainly the case was Facebook. So one needs to acquire enough knowledge with the help of very skilled consultants to understand how to navigate these challenges.
Host 19:50
You mentioned the Chinese interference and involvement, we know that Russia is are definitely friends of this regime, and we see that in the case of legit. Embassy and weapons. Is there evidence that Russia is involved in a digital sphere as well in Myanmar?
Arabella 20:06
But what we know is, for example, Telegram, very, very popular app, is is owned by the it is Russian owned, and it's not safe. Telegram, per se, is not encrypted. It can be encrypted, but who takes the trouble to do so, and then, of course, the Russian agency running telegram has access to the data, and that's why telegram is so popular in countries that are not free, yeah, and not safe, because telegram can provide a very easy access to data for people who shouldn't, or third parties.
Host 20:45
How safe is signal.
Arabella 20:49
I just can speak from experience and from from usage, and, of course, from discussing with the specialists. As of now, it's safe. We have not heard of any single breach yet. On a personal note, I'm so impressed, like so many other people, with the perseverance and with the resilience and with the strength and with how Burmese people are of all walks and kinds of ethnicities. Yeah, from from all over the country. You You are just impressive, and you are my personal heroes. You.
Ada 21:40
Good morning, everyone. My name is Ada. I'm from Myanmar, and I previously, I am not previously, Ansell America dancer, and now I'm in the mental health support field, like working as a mental health professional. Now, yeah, previously, before coup, people have low awareness on mental health issues. But in 2019 like covid happened, so people are staying inside, and they they've aware themselves that staying inside or social isolation causing them problems in their mental health, so they started to get awareness on their mental health. Or I'm feeling this, I'm feeling sad or isolated or lonely when I'm inside. So at 2019 I think they got awareness on how to take care of their mental health well away from the people when they are isolated. So in 2021 after coup happened previously, people didn't notice that mental health awareness, or mental health how to take care of their mental health is really necessary for them, because things are going smooth. Obviously they can handle their stress level. But after coup happened, a lot of things are changing. People. They are stress levels are immensely like increased, and they don't know how to handle that, not they handle on their own bad how to say the supplies and demands are not enough. Previously, their coping mechanisms are not helpful anymore, when their stress level are in like they are facing, facing the difficulties every day, so and and the duration is, duration is longer, and it since, since school happens now in into three years, three years duration. So a lot of they have feelings inside that they can spoke about, speak about. So the feelings inside, they don't know where to open up their feelings, safety, safety issues, security concerns, and they don't know who to trust to open up their feelings. So every conversations, conversations are meant to. Hard, but they don't know who to open up. So feelings like turmoiling inside, it really affects their mental health level.
Host 25:12
I think Do you see a difference, generally speaking, in the way that men or women have responded to looking at their mental health or the conditions they're facing.
Ada 25:22
Yeah, through my experiences, men are really hard to open up, hard to open up their feelings and coping strategies in men and women are different from from my experience, from what I see from my clients, women, most women like to talk. They talk among themselves, and they talk with each other or to their families, that men don't do that. Usually. They watch football and they they smoke, they smoke together when they are stressed, or they reach to a pub in the evening after work. So that's, that's all. I think that's how they handle their emotions, they most men don't really talk about their emotions, even even they have close friends or colleagues. So men more difficult to handle with difficult emotions. They have a lot to hold into, and they have a lot holding inside, right?
Host 26:48
You know, one of the things I've been thinking is that we talk about how what's currently going on as a revolution, and it's a revolution in many ways. Obviously, it's a physical revolution against it tyrannical military. But it's also a revolution in terms of women's roles, in terms of ethnic participation, in terms of education, and many other ways we can point to the ways that this is a real, full fledged revolution in Burmese society. One of the ways that I suspect it might also be a revolution, is the sense of being of Burmese being able to to to process and then talk openly about their experience of difficult emotions. Because the mere fact of saying, I'm not okay today, things aren't okay. I'm not okay with this. That's something that in my time in Myanmar, it was extraordinarily infrequent to hear someone admit to a feeling of discomfort or not okayness. It was something not really allowed to say, to upset the harmony. And so I wonder, speaking to a mental health professional, do you feel that we're witnessing, we're in the process of an absolute, verified revolution when it comes to the acknowledgement and processing of internal feelings in how they come into social context and relationships.
Ada 28:11
Sure, I believe that. I believe that forum, my personal experience and I'm also a CDM doctor, CDM medical professional. So it's quite, it's quite a journey to say I have to handle with my difficult emotions myself, and it's even, even I'm a mental health professional. I'm reluctant to say that I'm not okay to to even my close friends, because that might be like a button to hear for them. So I will hold my emotions and I I'm handling on my own and and I when I like That's true. Like learning, learning, continuous learning in like, my emotions, my feelings, and I reflect back on, what am I feeling? Why am I feeling this? I question myself and and then i i found hope. I found hope that I'm able to do this. I can contribute this. I feeling this because what you've been through this? So I can accept myself well and know myself better when I know my emotions well. So it's like a revolutionary journey for me as well. So I also believe, and I would like. To contribute my knowledge to Myanmar people upon like mental health, knowledge sharing and to raise their awareness.
Host 30:11
So you talk about this also being a personal journey for you in perhaps the first time, being able to admit to yourself and to others, oh, I'm not okay right now. How has that felt? Has that been scary or liberating, or what does it feel like to do that?
Ada 30:26
Yeah, it's a myth. Miss emotions, all kinds of emotions. At first, I'm scared that, oh, you're not really okay, and you're like, depressed, or you're sad, and where are your future? What if you can in the past not really matter anymore, and after accepting all the difficult emotions, I feel liberated like you said, I can accept this, and I found new new way, like, Oh, I must go forward whatever happens. And that's like a kind of hope for me after the acceptance. And to reach that level, it's not, it's not an instant acceptance, to accept the reality what's going on. I have to, like, take a certain time to accept all that difficult feelings and emotions. But after all that, I feel I found myself. I I found my better self, like, like that.
Host 31:37
That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for feeling comfortable to be able to share that journey of a revolution that you've been on. And I think it's also interesting that your own personal journey of this revolution is a microcosm of perhaps the journey that so many Burmese youths especially are going on, of being able to explore difficult feelings and admit and speak out difficult feelings that are unresolved and and to to not have to hide them. Yeah,
Ada 32:09
so like, how to say it's like finding finding yourself, it's also it will also helpful to other people like finding themselves, finding yourself is the best first step, and then you can also help others when you find yourself knowing knowing yourself is a journey. So be yourself, and it's a beautiful journey. Yeah, so I hope you found yourself.
Joe Anderson 33:14
Cool. So I'm Joseph Anderson. I am 24 from London. I have been interested in Myanmar prior to the coup. So I think it was 2016 when I first went to Myanmar as a as a tourist, naively coming to Thailand for the first time, and a bunch of travelers telling me that you have to go to this untouched place which is going to be like Thailand in the next 20 years. So, so get in there now before it becomes saturated by the tourist economy, which obviously isn't true, and it's, I think, a common misconception, but at the time, that was something which was the mainstream narrative within the, I think, at least Western tourism, Southeast Asia field. So I hopped over to Myanmar, and it was just completely different from my my three weeks in Thailand, and I was immediately fascinated. So when I came back to London, it was time for me to graduate high school and decide what I wanted to do for university, and that's where I thought, Well, my only interest was in cultural studies and anthropology, from reading a lot of ethnographies at that point. So I decided to go to SARS University in London, and on my first day, I met John okell and Justin Watkins, the late John okell and the amazing Justin Watkins, of course, and they asked me what language I wanted to focus on if I were to do a degree in Southeast Asian Studies. And I told John ok. Cal that I was interested in doing Vietnamese, which he, I think, kind of smiled at, but said that, you know you've been to Myanmar. I know that you are interested in Myanmar, from what you're telling me, why don't you try and do a few classes? Because the script is very interesting, and he essentially tried to sell it. And I thought, okay, it wasn't necessarily my plan, but it was very spontaneous. And I think actually, the very next day, I attended the first Bama Sagar class, which was amazing and super fun. And I had a lot of trust in John o'kell and Justin Watkins, that they that they would really kind of invigorate me and inspire me in my interest in Southeast Asia, and specifically mainland Southeast Asia. And it was really from that year onwards where my interest in Myanmar grew and grew and grew. And then, of course, fast forwarding after graduating from from soas the coup happened. And while all my plans were to spend a year perfecting my Burmese in Myanmar, of course, covid disrupted that. So I had to wait another year, and then when the coup happened, there was some talk early days that this would be a six month thing, a one year thing, and democracy would be restored. So I was playing the waiting game in London, and during that time I wasn't working, but I was actively listening to inside Myanmar podcast, among other podcasts and and trying to get my my hands on on any information about what was happening in the country, as well as still practicing my Burmese. But obviously being in London is difficult to practice every day when you don't have people around you where you can you can speak it every day. So one of the things which was always being said in these podcasts was that you can go out and advocate to your local governors. And that was something which was, was was, I think, particularly directed towards listeners in the US and writing letters to your your local state official or senator. And I kind of thought, well, this is an opportunity for me to get connected with some of the Diaspora groups, Myanmar diaspora groups in London. And obviously you've got loads from Kachin groups to also bamar groups, among many others. And that's when I got connected with the stars of Myanmar friendship club. And through them, we organized various fundraising campaigns, protests and advocacy on social media, and also a lot of art and photography exhibitions around London. And I was able to get connected with some really amazing people, including Christopher gunness, who was the BBC journalist during 1988 and it was at that time that we were organizing some campaigns in the summer, and some members from stars of Myanmar friendship club said that you you really should be going to Thailand, and that Chiang Mai is The place to be, in terms of exiled Myanmar political activism and also mesa. And so my initial plan was to spend around six months in Chiang Mai and then maybe six months in maison. And it was while I was in Chiang Mai that I on the first day of arriving one of my my colleagues from SAS, Myanmar friendship club said that there's this great organization called XR hub, and that you should get connected with XR hub. So I hopped over to xr hub office, and it was very spontaneous. They invited me to kind of just get, get introduced, and I was very eager on on working with them, and they said that they would give me a volunteer position, and they didn't promise anything, and they really wanted to kind of suss me out and see what I could could do, or what I could bring to the organization. And fast forward, two years later, I'm still in Chiang Mai. I do go to Mesa on a regular basis.
Host 39:50
That's awesome, and I appreciate how the warp speed that your Burma experience has been. You're only 24 reference going there in 2016 from tourists to universe. Student to language, student to then going into into academia, and then in the heart of the revolution in Chiang Mai. And Chiang Mai and Mesa being the headquarters of the revolution, so to speak. So this has been a warp speed introduction to an incredibly complicated society and and the complicated society in the midst of a transition which no one out there can really legitimately say they understand what's going on and where it's going. And so I wonder what my question is, not so much on the outside factors, but on the internal factors. How have you changed, and how have as you become more personally oriented on this journey with this relationship with Myanmar. How have you changed in this absolute warp speed process?
Joe Anderson 40:47
I think it's I mean the immediate things is definitely having to grow as an individual and realize that despite ageism being a very big thing within several different Myanmar communities. I do think that I've had to kind of just sidetrack that and really just just be like, if I, if I do want to be of use in some form of capacity, that I really have to be direct with my work and and try to make sure that I'm not just taking up space, especially as a foreigner, being educated at SOAS, there's obviously a lot of conversations around positionality and where I'm coming from, and acknowledging and recognizing my privilege. And it's, it's, it's a continuous negotiation within myself, but also realizing that if I am taking up the space, how can I use it the most effectively, and is it something which is benefiting the people around me, the people that I love most daily, which are, of course, My friends, my family, my colleagues, my community, and that's that's very much within the Myanmar conversation as well. So I think that is that is definitely one way of having to change and realizing that despite being quite young and obviously very inexperienced, I mean, I'm learning every single day that sometimes the the when there's a will, there's a way, and I've definitely learned that from Myanmar activists who have definitely showed me that there's when there's a will, there is definitely a way, and trying to incorporate that both in my my work life, my my professional my personal life. So yeah,
Host 42:43
so part of how you've presented yourself in relation to Myanmar has been this, this real awareness of outsider, and not just being an outsider, but the history of how outsiders have engaged with Myanmar. And this also relates to a conversation we had before this recording. So the last question I want to ask you is to request you to share something we were talking about just before the recording. And I'll set up the context of this and how it relates to what we were just talking about just now. And that's this we were referencing, how there can be a tendency among some foreigners or observers to want to silo and separate certain parts of the Myanmar experience and put these dotted, artificial lines and barriers between things that in Myanmar are quite integrated. This was said in context of me explaining that sometimes people will be surprised that we have a podcast that can talk about the spiritual quest of the highest forms of meditation and political and human rights. And isn't it strange that you keep trying to find connections there? And my response is that I'm not finding connections. You're the one who's trying to pretend that there's actually walls and separation, and these are being brought out of Myanmar and understood in separate boxes and containers in the West, which are artificial, and we whichever container we separate it into, we miss the holistic approach of how it's contained in Myanmar, and that's the attention that I want to give is not separating them according to our understanding, which, as we talked about in our conversation, also probably not. Probably does. Go back to the British the British colonialists, and how they tried to compartmentalize and understand things through their own, their own approach.
Joe Anderson 44:23
Yeah, I think it's coming from from an outsider perspective of really trying to understand Myanmar from the very beginning, and that that started from when I hopped off the plane in Yangon and and even just I remember 2016 walking down the streets of Yangon and also around like sulei pagoda, and seeing all these blood stains everywhere, and I thought, Oh, my God, this is a crazy place. I don't know why I've decided to go to to to Myanmar, like it's so different. From Bangkok is so different from Thailand, and I went without my parents knowing. I didn't inform my parents. I was in Myanmar, and it took me only a few days. It took me a couple days to actually realize that, oh, this is not blood on the floor. It's beetle nut. And actually having to educate myself on what beetle nut was. So that was really just immediately, just a clear, clear shock from me, and then also at university, trying to understand Myanmar. And Myanmar culture is really the way that it was taught at SOAS was, I do appreciate it. Was really trying to plant seeds and letting you decide where you want to focus on and how you want to make sense of Myanmar. And I remember one professor introducing me to the religious system within Myanmar. And the common narrative is that Myanmar is Theravada Buddhist, and Theravada Buddhist is there Theravada Buddhism is one of the most conservative, and I'm putting my fingers up conservative religious beliefs within the tradition of Buddhism. And the professor gave me this one paper to read about tattooing practices, and didn't really introduce me much to it, but said, you know, read this paper about tattooing practices and tell me what you think. And it was tattooing practices within Shan state, in 18th century, SHAN region, and trying to use tattooing as a way of making sense of the religious system within Shan state at that time. And the despite Shan state being very diverse and still being very diverse at that time, there was still a narrative which was promoted by the British of Shan region is Buddhist with a bit of animist, animism present. And what was always being told to me in in other texts was that there's a sync this syncretic model, which I absolutely hate, which is this idea that you have many different forms of religious practices and beliefs which are all in the same room, essentially, but you pick and choose when you want to employ them within your daily life, and they are never mixed. And this paper, which I read that my professor gave to me said the complete opposite, and said that it's not true. It is creating a new form of spiritual religious practice which is endemic to that region. It's not something you can characterize for the whole country. It's not something that you can characterize for Northern Shan State, Southern Shan state, it's very endemic to a micro scale, individual, a familial scale, and maybe a village scale. And I was just hooked on this, because this was really convincing for me. And I started to focus on tattooing practices within Shan state within that time period, and I was reading this one post colonial theorist called Homi Bhabha, who has this theory on hybridity. And hybridity is essentially this idea that very much like syncretism, there's very there's many different parties at play, but what ends up happening is that they all combine to make this hybrid identity. And I thought this was a great theory to employ within understanding tattooing practices and, more broadly, religious practices within certain villages and regions within Shan state at that in the 18th century. And so the after, after delving into this research and doing research paper of my own, the really interesting thing that I would always find doing the research was that I would read these tattoo manuscripts. And the British Museum has a bunch psoas has a bunch the Horniman gallery as well. And they have all these tattoo manuscripts with Pali script. And so immediately the mainstream narrative is that, oh, this is Buddhist. It's there about a Buddhist. And I remember reading some of the scripts. But then all of a sudden they change. And so the tattooing manual, manuals, and obviously I forgot to mention, but obviously, tattooing practice is something very much connected with with belief systems and spiritual practice. And tattooing practice is a form of spiritual practice in itself. I. Not everywhere, but of course, in Myanmar and other countries in Southeast Asia as well. So with these, with these, with these scripts, immediately, what was amazing was that you had one leaflet, which was in Pali, and then if you flipped it, it would still be talking about, let's say, how to prepare the ink for tattooing. But then they would change to like a Lanna script or AI script, and it would change languages constantly, and that just represented the diversity. And then you have these beautiful motifs which are kind of like these tattooing, Flash seat, Flash sheets, old school class sheets. And you'd have these beautiful motifs of like a gnat or a waitsau, which is a wizard, or you would have a civet cat or a tiger. And these are all ideas of animus, practices coming alive. But then you also have Hindu iconography as well, such as Hanuman and I think it's Indra and all these other gods, but then you have the magical wordings and phrases and the ingrets and talismanic symbols, which are also animistic. But then at the same time, the tattooing practice itself, from an academic perspective, was always understood to be a form of Buddhist practice, and this was something which fell into the category of Buddhism within Shan State at this time. But it was very clear to me and obviously to many other individuals that actually know this is a hybrid practice, and this is something where you cannot dissect all of these different characteristics on their own. So what I did right now is I just dissected them, but the dissection is wrong, because the the Hanuman iconography is not necessarily just Hindu. And obviously you have Hanuman and many other Hindu gods which come into Buddhist mythology. And I think it's in the the Ramayana and the Mahayana and and these kinds of stories which are very much part of Buddhism, as as much as they're part of Hinduism. And it, it really is. I mean, I could obviously talk so much about it, but the point that I think I'm trying to make is that from as from a foreigner, it was so jarring for me, especially in London, trying to make sense of this. And always, every time, every day doing more and more research, realizing that my whole framework of understanding is wrong and like you, like you. You mentioned earlier today about asking the right questions, and how do you approach certain, let's say, cultural aspects of Myanmar, and that you do have to come at it with a certain approach and make sure that you're asking the right questions. And I think, more often than not, from my experience and definitely always learning, is that I do have a tendency to come in it with asking the wrong questions, because my framework is very much catered towards this syncretic neat and tidy, putting everything in a separate box where everything is siloed, because that is a western model of making sense of the world. But for Myanmar and many other places around the world, that's just not the case. And there's so much diversity, and it's so complex that I think that my experience of under trying to understand tattooing practices really just highlighted that you have to come come at it with a different angle, and more often than not, you have to just question yourself constantly and rethink, what are your biases?
Your what kind of predetermined factors do you do bring into it? And that definitely, I think, has informed continuously my time in being in Thailand, working with the within the exile Myanmar media activism space is that, you know, it can be great, especially when you're talking to international, international actors about Myanmar, because I can maybe, let's say, be on the same playing field and try to share some complicated information in a simple, simplified way of to, let's say, a western audience, but at the same time, it's wrong and it's not correct, and it might be useful, but it's not factually accurate. And I think that this is a really interesting thing which a lot of foreigners have realized and are grappling with, and it's something I continue to grapple with to this day. Yeah, but yeah, I think it's, it's interesting. I mean, on a positive note, it is interesting how things turn out. Obviously, it's really sad how things have turned out for Myanmar. But I mean, on a positive note, who knows? Let's, let's hope that democracy is restored, forthcoming. But I think that for me, my trajectory within Myanmar, how we got connected. And also I think the one of the first things I said when, when we first ever met, was that I said that I've been listening to inside Myanmar podcast for a very long time, pre coup, when I was just trying to soak up as much information as possible about about Myanmar. And at that time, Insight Myanmar was very much focused on on on specifics of Buddhist practice and meditation practice. And this was something I was not familiar with whatsoever, but I would continue to listen to the podcast just to get any information in English language, about, about Myanmar and my trajectory is, is, it's, it's interesting how fast forward several years and with, with political turmoil and and terrible degradation of human rights in country. I think it's interesting how we have ended up meeting in Chiang. Mai, I know that you were in the States before, and now are here. So I think it's interesting how things turn out. And I think that for insight Myanmar podcast listeners, this is also something where you could be in Chiang. Mai, you could be from all around the world. Who knows. But things have an interesting way of turning out sometimes. And despite feeling like we're very far away, I feel very far away from Myanmar at times when I'm in Chiang Mai, even more when I was in London, of course. But there's always something that you can do. And at that time, six months into the coup, I remember listening to inside Myanmar, and that kind of pushed me towards getting connected to some diaspora groups. And I think that for for listeners who are around the world, specifically those who are, who are not from Myanmar, there always is something that you can do, and you can always be an ally and a friend of Myanmar. And people will welcome you with open arms, for for for anything really, that you do. There's, there's many different ways that you can support and it doesn't need to be something which is you divest all your energy into it could be a simple donation. It could be a simple call to action, a participation in a campaign or an advocacy project. But I also would like to just say that Myanmar is not far away at the same time. It's not a isolated place, far from far from this world. It's very much at the at the core of Southeast Asia with a fascinating history. And I would invite definitely non native Myanmar people to to spend some time learning about some of the history of Myanmar, because I'm sure that there will be something that you relate to you may not be interested in in Buddhist or meditation practices. You may not be interested in history. You may not be interested in conflict and war and the complications and the violence and and everything which is, which is happening right now, but there will always be something which you can latch on to and definitely find interesting.
Host 58:55
Many of you know that in addition to running the Insight Myanmar podcast platform, we also formed a nonprofit, better Burma, to respond to the terror that the Burmese military has been inflicting on the country and its people. We encourage listeners to check out our blog to see what work better Burma has been carrying out, along with the upcoming projects we hope to support right now, as I'm sure you all know, and today's interview only reinforced that the ongoing need is overwhelming. A donation of any amount goes towards those vulnerable communities who need it most, and it will be so greatly appreciated. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method, Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions aiding those local communities who need it. Post donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement, CDM, families of deceased victims, internally displaced person, IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover. Journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries, education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies, covid relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission, Better Burma. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the Better Burma website, betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause and both websites except credit card, you can also give via PayPal, by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search Better Burma on each platform, and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts, or email us at info@betterburma.org, that's Better Burma, one word spelled B, E, T, T, E R, B, U, R, M, A.org if you would like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artisan communities across Myanmar, available@alokacrafts.com any purchase will not only support these artisan communities, but also our nonprofit's wider mission that's Aloka crafts spelled, a, l, o, K, A, C, R, A, F, T, S, one word, alokacrafts.com thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.