Transcript: Episode #209: You Say You Want A Revolution
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
0:43
Myanmar's military has been systematically torturing detainees in the wake of pro democracy protests in the country. March 2021, people in young guns still
1:05
have faith faith. Those hopes would crush Tosh as the hunter moves in front of hundreds of fleeing protesters.
Host 1:26
During the current crisis unfolding in Myanmar, events are happening so fast that it can feel challenging to keep up with them. Although we're working to increase our podcast production far beyond what we've ever done before, to meet the needs of this ever changing crisis, we feel that the podcasts alone still do not address the full range of everything going on. So we encourage you to also check out the blogs on our website, insight myanmar.org. Also, feel free to check out our other social media sites. Just look for insight Myanmar, or Burma Dhamma on your preferred platform, and to engage in this topic more deeply and discuss with other practitioners head over to the Facebook group meditation in Burma slash Myanmar. With that, let's head to our show.
2:41
Ken Thundarr comes from a small village in Rakhine State. She is actively involved with a number of African civil society organizations and youth groups. She was interviewed on May 2. What I feel sad about though is that most young people in Myanmar do not have the opportunity to study at all at the moment, whether online or offline, which means they're basically losing their future. I was in Yangon when the coup happened. I had a lot of missed calls from my friends and activist I work with that night. And when I finally answered one at around 4:30am, I found out there have been a military coup. Actually, I wasn't that shocked. I had suspected the coup would happen. My first thought was that based on our experience in Rakhine State, people needed to prepare for an internet shutdown, and for not being able to communicate with their loved ones. So I began to calmly spread this message with my network. In contrast to many of my friends, I never really thought of going out into the streets to protest against the coup. You know, while people in Yangon and NLD supporters, mostly from the Burma majority were experiencing the so called democratic transition in recent years, we in Rakhine State continue to live and suffer under a military dictatorship. After the coup, these very same groups began calling for unity of all of Myanmar. But where were they when our ethnic people are dying in communal and armed conflicts? It is unfair and very painful. Actually, many people in Rakhine State feel as much distrust and even hatred towards the Burma majority as they do towards the military. Because of this, I felt a little out of place in Yangon after the coup, so I decided to go back to my home state. When I arrived and met with some youth who were thinking of organizing a protest. We discussed it for a while, especially the high risk of getting arrested or even killed. Since the military presence in Rakhine State is much bigger than in Yangon. We ask ourselves, who is it exactly we would be protesting for and do we deserve to get jailed or killed for that? In the end And we decided against it. That is why Rakhine State is silent now, we don't talk about the military, and there is no CDM here. What affected my life post coup the most have been the progressive internet shutdowns, I had to cancel many of my plans. Like an online civic education course for university students that I had been preparing together with some of my seniors. I was also unable to move abroad for my master's studies as I had originally planned, since my flight got canceled, in part due to the crew spirit and in part due to COVID 19 outbreak over there. Luckily, I can study online, but I've had to move a couple of times in order to secure a stable internet connection. What I feel sad about though, is that most young people in Myanmar do not have opportunity to study at all at the moment, whether online or offline, which means they're basically losing their future. Of course, the coup has also affected me and everyone around me psychologically, the constant stream of bad news is heartbreaking. When I get too stressed, I spend time alone, go for walks on the beach, listen to music or exercise. Sometimes I write down my thoughts and feelings about what's going on in the country. In my family, there are different opinions on the current events. So it has become a very sensitive topic for us. For the first few weeks after the coup, we couldn't even discuss it, I experienced something similar with my personal network as well. First, I was sharing my opinions about the political situation very openly, both online and offline. But then this led to fights with friends and other activists and people began accusing me of being selfish. So in the end, I decided to stay silent. I feel like everyone wants to get media attention nowadays, but I would say that the world needs to listen to the unhurt voices in Myanmar before it over generalizes the situation in the country. I'm personally worried about my state because in contrast to the past one, there was a lot of discussion. Rakhine State is now silent, it feels scary and I worry there will be more fighting in the future.
Susan Zaw 8:12
At the end of the day at the very first day of delivery, I didn't know how much that the Coop can affect it on the civilians, because I had no experience. But on paper seven, my friends started protesting. Actually, they were protesting before that, but I, I didn't get any content before it. Then I also wanted to try with them. First, it's just for fun, and just to gather new experience, because I don't I don't like I'm not a fan of energy nor the military. But I do love the freedom and democracy that the past government gave us. So I I started protesting on February 7. And other of my neighbors also tried the new year strikes, like the word strikes or they they gather around in order and the shout the chant and One of my neighbor also included that he's not the one who protest, he just make the free rights, free ride for the protester. And because he has he has, he had a car, and he wasn't wanted to use it, usefully. He's he was a good guy, because when one we heard that some gangs want to do wanted to find out the houses in the quarter. I didn't know why they wanted to do it. But they for use in the quarter starts making making a group to, to wait to wait for the gangs, not Japan, not Japan, the houses are not two parts. And one, he he was also a member. And he was an Ajit pi. But on February 28. See, he drove, he drove for the protester like he used to do that on that day, he trying to correct someone who was shipped by the military at the time, he came out from his car, and he was also shipped to the next. And his friends and neighbors was very shocked as they grabbed him to the home first, then they took him to the hospital and take an operation that was successful. And he was almost a life that the military in queried the when the ones who they they should. And if if there is anyone died because of them. They grab the cat toys and they do something they do something. I don't know what they do. And they stand back to the family later, after weeks or weeks or two weeks. I'm not sure sometimes the family don't even get the dead bodies. They just got the ash the edge of their their family member. And my neighbor also my neighbor's family also worried about their son. Their son does worry too. Find the military. That's why they moved to the another hospital. He was almost conscious again. He died all the way to the hospital. I I couldn't say how much he was painful. And the he went to his funeral ceremony.
They are just very few people. And everyone is crying and couldn't believe what happened. Because he was almost alive, that die. In bed where he shouldn't
Host 13:32
I see. So thank you for telling me the story. I'm sure this was very difficult to go back to those experiences that were so painful. And that happened at the start. And you're describing your neighbor who was like many people in those early days of the protest was providing his using his car and his driving skills to be able to bring protesters from one place to another. And as he was providing this free service, he was shot in the neck. Is there any idea who shot him or where it came from? Or why he was shot?
Susan Zaw 14:11
Oh, no, actually, I didn't know I totally was shit in inflaton is somewhere in Django. There were a lot of people.
Host 14:26
And then he went and had an operation and the operation was successful. And at that point after a successful operation, what should have been the protocol? Was he healthy enough to go home and be discharged or was he being watched over at the hospital but what what should have happened after that successful operation and what happened instead?
Susan Zaw 14:49
I didn't go to the hospital but our some of our neighbors are wonderful. So they told me that he is famous So moving after the operation after a couple of our activity operations and so he, maybe he can, he could on those go home. The nuts analysis and the torture, tear No. Let him go off from the hospital for a moment. Firstly, they are afraid of the military. So they say let him move to another hospital. That hospital is also under the military. So if he even thought he will survive, he would I survive?
Host 15:46
And do they? Does anyone know how he ended up passing away what he died of?
Susan Zaw 15:55
Someone said he he was dead because lack of oxygen on the way, so I'm not sure how, because the nice mistake or just because the oxygen Phila.
Host 16:12
Right. Yes, I understood and even something worse if it was something deliberate on the part of the military, but it sounds like he was doing a good thing. And in terms of the volunteering work that he was doing for the protesters of driving them around. And then he was shot presumably by the military. And basically, he was then in trouble for getting shot.
Susan Zaw 16:36
Yeah, I also another example how to use this guy. He is a buy friend of my cousin's sister. He knew someone he was a volunteer. Yes, he, he knew someone who was a volunteer in this fight. They they drove the ambulance car. And when the military caught them, he was hit by the can hit by the fan. Still, their helmets took off with the different to anything back to him. They just sitting in front of them and being the hidden by them. Someone was about two three people.
Host 17:39
Yeah, yeah. It's hard to understand the cruelty and the inhumanity faced with this military and with what happened to your neighbor, that's obviously a very traumatic event. And sounds like he was a very good person and, and the shock of a good person being treated that way. And then the pain he must have gone through and then the pain that his family is dealing with. It's, it's really unimaginable. And in speaking to you before the interview, you were mentioning this. So this example with your neighbor was not just a really terrible bad traumatic thing that happened. But it also had a very profound effect on you personally, because as you explained it to me before we're speaking now, and as you mentioned, at the beginning of this interview, you were not necessarily pro or anti military, or pro or anti NLD. And you might have been a bit indifferent when the protests when the coup first happened, and you went with your friends to protest, but you weren't really personally invested and weren't really sure about all that was going on. But you said when this happened to your neighbor, this suddenly some something changed inside you because of this. So can you elaborate on that a little?
Susan Zaw 18:50
Yeah. I said I'm not a fan. Oh, no, the orange tree because I in 2014, at the festival, it just became really much the COVID it decided to Myanmar as a time to not build all of the parties suggest the people even even though there are a lot of public cases are increasing. They don't care about sorry, the government didn't care about it. And they just making music. They just trying to catch the attention of the people to get more votes. So I hate that because there were a lot of people infected by that by that ceremonies. So I'm not a fan of nano fans. But later and I I know How the military is that way. So I just, I just want to keep that.
Host 20:08
Yeah. And this might also relate to your background, because as you also shared with me, you, your grandfather and your father, were both soldiers, you had a very close relationship with your grandfather, and you lived among the military until you were eight years old. So can you describe a bit about your childhood with the Tamada? And what it was like having a father and grandfather who came from that organization, how, how that influenced you? And what, how it conditioned you and what your experiences were with them?
Susan Zaw 20:39
Yeah, my grandfather, he passed away phase seven years ago. And he was very kind to me. And he was patient ties on me and also on his own daughters. He, as he was a soldier, he fought a lot of enemies, and he failed. He might kill a lot of people. I'm not sure about that. But I, I didn't know that stocks I found for his tax ID. So I just know his lifestyle. And he was a good person. And I father, I, I don't, I can't even mention it first how much he is a good person. Because He even didn't yell at least since the whole life. Now I'm 26. And he stated yell at me and no teaching and nothing. He just very so patient. Even under the condition, I made some mistakes, why I was teenager, my my mother, even my mother is not that patient. So I thought, the soldiers are very good. They're just good guys, like the other person and nothing different. When I was a kid, some soldiers also took care of me why? My, my mother is busy. And my father was in his office. The other soldiers are the trade would be and there was such a good guy is that why the footsteps, they just, they just obey. They have the order, the order by the military, and they don't care. They didn't care anyone's life. But mostly, unlike that summer sale. Some still want to try the CDM movements. Because I know some to change, too. So if you change the size, the against the military tries with the civilians, so they're also sacrifice in the soldiers.
Host 23:14
Right? So how do you make sense of that today, the fact that you have these really warm and beautiful memories of your father and your grandfather, how they took care of their family, and not just financially but how they just seem like very warm and compassionate and nice human beings. And they were in this organization, the tatmadaw, which you're seeing, as you're now seeing for what it is, and the dark and the cruel side of it. Do you see, as you look back and reflect it out? And you're going through this transition? Do you do you feel that your father and grandfather were fundamentally good people that were trapped in a bad organization? Or do you feel that you only had access to some part of their personality and there was another part of what they were doing and who they were that you never really knew?
Susan Zaw 24:06
Maybe my grandfather might in some bad things. I didn't know when I can extend stretch. I knew that he fought a lot of battles. But no, like my father, he believed he was a soldier he was he didn't need to go to the frontline, frontline off the pedal. He just stay in the back line and makes them pay for words. So he doesn't know about the games or fighting people. Maybe because of that.
Host 24:45
I can imagine that must be hard to reconcile and contemplate. You know, as you're learning more information and and trying to reflect on your family in history, I imagine that must be quite hard.
So given that family background that you had with growing up among soldiers and having your father and grandfather, as part of the military as well, I imagine you had a complicated relationship. And also, you're going through your own learning process. Now, when the coup actually hit on February 1, given your background, how did you feel about it? You weren't a fan of the NLD. Were Did you think that the coup was a good thing initially, and maybe the military had run the country better? Or what were your feelings?
Susan Zaw 25:37
Oh, I, I just didn't think that the COVID that much. Because, as I told you, I have no experience. Because in, in the books, and I knew I knew about the dictators, evil No, they all were very bad. Like, they're, like, the worst person in the world. Like, that's generally the way and other people. They did a lot, a lot of killing to the several years. And I, I read sample about them the chronology I can imagine, but I didn't read the books, that kind of boats before the poop. So I had, I had no idea. But later, I knew more about them. And they had just like, psychopathic pens.
Host 26:40
Right. And so, when the coup initially broke, what were your feelings at that time?
Susan Zaw 26:46
immediate feeling? Aye. Aye. Aye. I can guess a little bit because before the coup on January, someone from the military cite me conference meeting. At that meeting, he said, their honor, they gonna make a coop, as someone for a reporter at him? Can we can we be assured that she don't make any? He said, No. So I thought they might do something big before sun. And as far as the guest, they did it. And most of the people around me also don't think Sorry, didn't didn't say that previous that match that favorite one. Because we just so excited, and how our leaders are now detained by the military, what will happen next, but we are sure that they won't kill and the author years. Someone is very famous and someone's they can choose. And we so we didn't worry about them that we worry about our financial problem or other education, or something like that. isn't important in this situation.
Host 28:16
Right. You know, it's interesting when you're talking about your family who was involved in the military, and then you learning that the military's this fascist mafia organization and having to reconcile that, I realized one of the things that brings to my mind is, I had a very strange experience a few years ago, when I was in Thailand. And actually of all things I was at a an oolong tea tasting, kind of ceremony with a bunch of different people around the table. And I was sitting next to a an older German woman for about three hours. And at the very end of the conversation, I don't remember how it happened or how I came to learn. But this woman was the daughter of Hermann Goring, who was one of the top Nazis who developed the who was instrumental in the Holocaust of killing all the Jews and the concentration camps. And it was pretty astounding to think that I was seated next to the daughter of one of the greatest war criminals of the 20th century. And, of course, being very curious about who this person was then did some research and looked and she's written a book and there's been a documentary about her. She's very much denounced her father and and has shamed growing up of who she who she is and how she how just even her bloodline but and that's a whole other story that is quite interesting in itself. But where it reminds me is she just describes a very happy and warm and friendly family life of her father bringing gifts home and having nice holidays and how he was loving and I think for some of us, it's it's quite confusing and shocking to think about examples where someone can be involved in a murderous, fascist organization, whether it's the Nazi Party or the tatmadaw, and committing all these atrocities and crimes against humanity, and yet, they're not these total monsters, they, there can be people involved in these organizations that do try to be ethical and moral. And there could be others like Herman Goring that are absolute monsters, and they are really the worst of the worst. And yet at the same time, they they do have the shreds of humanity in them, they, they there are things they love, there are things they care about, they do have ethical or selfless or loving actions towards others. And so it can be kind of confounding, I think, for those of us not associated or connected to this to think just about the complexity of human nature and of human motivations and such.
Susan Zaw 30:50
Yeah, that's what we are doing right away. Less, less two months ago, someone connect me with a group that is making, making contents and some sidebars, for for the military side. It's more like we are providing them that they're still things they care about. They're still people they care about, they have to care about. And if what if that person's or things were just fine, currently buying someone to to do so you didn't do anything? What will happen? So we question about the NTP. So that's what we're doing. Right.
Host 31:40
Right. Yeah. So and getting back to your story where we left off in February, March. So you know, your neighbor being shot in the neck had this profound influence on changing and redirecting how you felt and what you want to do about the coup. And then the young woman being shot in Mandalay was, was also very traumatic for you. And then the military came out, and they denied that they had shot her and did not admit to the details around her death. And that was another moment in on your road to activism and joining the resistance. Why was that so impactful for you?
Susan Zaw 32:16
So because, as I mentioned, I knew he was a very good guy, even though we, we we weren't, we were in France, he even tried the member to protect, to protect the father, actually, he was a guest. It means we just stay in, in his friend's home, in where we live, we are where we live. So he was not from the town. He was not from our town. But he cared about so much, though he is a guest. He cared about us so much. So what can we do it? Why can't we protect our neighbors? And why can't we protect our country from that dictators. So that's very clear. I decided I will do anything and I will stop with no reason to the dictator, hold off.
Host 33:21
And you had referenced a couple other incidences that also had a profound impact on your decision to be a revolutionary one of those was the shooting of Moto tokine in Mandalay. And they denied that they killed her. And then another incident you were involved. That was when you you attended a protest that resulted in 30 people that were killed. You were present there. And so you witness some of the things unfolding and then the military denied what happened and made up funny stories about the protesters. So can you tell a little bit about your reaction to both those incidences and why they were so meaningful to you in terms of the future action that it resulted in you following?
Susan Zaw 34:10
Yeah. On that much 27 That was seminar de for them. So our civilians house they won't feel that much people because the international international concert is watching over us. We thought we thought that the other country don't care that much. And we also and we we have no idea what we're waiting for. So I just put some stuff in my backpack like the water bottle and extra clothings and some snacks, so I just I just went to the store As ever my friends calling me keep they keep calling me why I'm strike. Actually, I don't answer the phone. Why I'm on strike because that was so noisy and I can hear very well. But I just pick up because the call me so many times and they shouted me you have to brand because there are a lot of sensors coming to you where where you are and the quantity A lot of people they guess. So I checked to do this thought it was right or not. And there are also some people to buy stops away. That actually the killing was maybe four or five stops away from me. So I couldn't see clearly. But I had a lot of can shootings and a lot of people shouting and running, running away. My brother, my little brother was here there and he was checked by some smoko. And my friends, one of my friends also, were also there. So they will also should find the smartphones. And they ran between the Elisse. So we escape. But two of my my friends, sisters were arrested, just arrested the they weren't heard any. So I I call back home at a time and why I was home my brother was just on this call. So we have to save him. When we pick up him actually my father did. So he also escaped. We didn't have much. But there were about 30 people died. I know. I knew it because the township I went on strike was a township I used to go for many years for my for my job. So I knew that they didn't like me. And someone after some weeks, maybe two or three weeks, I'm not sure. Maybe I can see the dates. Someone was also it's in the in the MIPS Of course he wants to the score where the military planning, planning something sorry, he found a two to provider as a fire that he was also shirts and died on the spot. He was my junior friends
Host 38:11
I'm sorry to hear that it's all quite traumatic to take in and to have to experience and all of these episodes contributed to your decision to want to be a revolutionary and resist this military in every way that you could. And that's coming from a place where as we mentioned when the coup hit you didn't unlike many protesters now you didn't necessarily have this immediate reaction to it but the screw so would you say that the decision to be a revolutionary and to play some of the roles you're playing now which we'll get into in a moment. Do you feel that this was a gradual path over the course of February and March that you kind of landed on this is what you would do or was there like a moment like an off on where suddenly light bulb just hit you and you knew this is what you're going to do was it more of a gradual or immediate decision?
Susan Zaw 39:04
Yeah, not an immediate decision. Actually, the moments why my neighbors and my junior friends was to make me more make my decision more stronger. Sorry stronger now. Not just India decision. I just I just wanted to beat them down since a second the people without without any reason. Like like they killed a girl in vitro and someone in Mandalay and a lot of pVn Django and also in Baku, they did a lot of killing but see no no regret about them. About that. But someone who tried CDM. And his wife told me that she was also very shocked why the soldiers make a lot of killing that much, because she, she, she was hurt or her husband, wife, he got a promotion. As a I don't know how to say that position in English. So he wanted to call the promotion. And he was she was proud for her husband. And later flying, the killing, there's a lot of civilians, like teenagers, and even the kids and in the tents, so she was also pregnant at the time. So she worried about her future, future kids. So she decided to join CBN with her husband, she arch her husband, day and night. First, her husband didn't agree with with her. But later, he also realized that how how those are cruel, and he also worried about his future kids. So they joined CBS, and they went to our site.
Host 41:25
And what I found that's interesting, what you just said is, you referenced how when some of the cruelty in the acts of violence took place, for example, your neighbor and the some of the people you knew in the township, that this made you angry, this made you dedicated this heart and your resolve. And what I find interesting about that is in previous revolutions in Myanmar, this often had the opposite effect as violence scared people at quieted people that made them be suppressed and repressed and stay inside their homes. And that allowed the military to win because those who were courageous who were the minority would come out, and they could easily take care of them, while everyone else stayed inside in fear. And, you know, there's been this expression among Generation Z that started out in February, have you messed with the wrong generation. And I think when this same came out, it was, it was quite, you know, there are some bravado and it was quite, quite a quite a kind of exciting, proud thing to say. But to be honest, it was it was sad before the difficulty really happened. And so it was hard to know how much the statement really meant. But as we've seen this protest movement progress, I keep coming back to the statement of you messed with the wrong generation. And it really does seem like something about this generation has decided to act differently than generations before it when the Thomas was doing its tricks of. And one of those we see is that when it kills people, when it commits cruelty when it lies, instead of being scared and silence and staying at home and hoping one wouldn't be be targeted, which is the normal human response. People like you have actually gotten angry and more motivated, more active and wanting to join the resistance. So I wonder if you've noticed that and with looking at your generation and your parents or grandparents generation, if you've seen that difference, and why you think that differences there.
Susan Zaw 43:26
Yeah, at first, my parents also warned me not to do that message me. They also scare off that I might kill by military or I might be attacked by them. So they, they wanted to stop me. But I think that I really know that for if I don't do that, if I don't do this kind of revolutionary things. Someone, someone will make me stand on the bed, the the strength from our side will be weaker. So I don't want it. And we need more, more strength and we wanted to end it very, very fast. We are losing our rice like human rights, women, rice, and then rice forever, Thai rice, everything. We're losing it. Actually, they have no rights to order as just because we have the CANS because this is not the way to move the people. This is just the way to the animals or something else. We're not angels. We are just humans and we will know what to do and what is right and what is wrong. They can they can teach us by the way, so Actually, I don't even know why I'm not scared of why even people, the only are kidding and touching. I don't know that. I just know I had to do it. I forgot to mention you that someone also detained by the military, because he was a leader of a strike. That was our childhood friends, my little brother's childhood friends. He was a very smart and good guy. He led image strike near our father, but he was detained since since much to gain now, though, though that may ally release some detainer. Less, less, three days ago, but he wasn't involved. And a lot of people were also arrested at least. That's that's also a cruel thing, right?
Host 46:15
Yeah, yeah, sure. That's one of many, many cruel things that's going on. And you had mentioned when you became more resolved to be a revolutionary, your mother was very scared for you, as any mother would be. However, I'm also curious about your father, your father was a soldier in the automaton as far as you're comfortable sharing what has been his feelings towards the coup?
Susan Zaw 46:41
I was also wondering, well, when he stopped me, actually, no, he but he just encouraged me. And when me what to do in the, if someone should to lay on the ground, or to find some way to hide, or to cover? Or if, if you hear that kind of sound as a sound bomb, or if you hear that kind of sound as a smoke bomb, and that's really a can or does one of the legs. So he he teach, he taught me some in college. That's
Host 47:20
That's incredible. So your father actually prepared you for the combat that you are going to find yourself in and to rather than preventing you from leaving the house or from being involved. He actually provided you more tips of how to stay safe.
Susan Zaw 47:37
Yeah, they know. Because I make people as a kind of person. I can't be still bigger. What if I want to do something so bad? So they knew it?
Host 47:51
And your father being a retired soldier, what has been his view of the coup? Is he does he feel any kind of loyalty stare at still towards the Commodore from his time there?
Susan Zaw 48:03
Oh, actually, he was retire one since he was seven. It's not normal, right? Because the retire person has to work until they are 60. But he still got retire since he was 37. But because of some messes, the upper dog stays during entry and the other, the other general, because unless and my dad's my Dad's Army was from the other side. So they eventually they removed all of his people. And he left he left them in the jeans. And he he sent to the country size to some soldiers and but like, like the soldier like my father's they didn't do any any crime. And also they didn't take any Iligan money. That's why they couldn't find any punishment for him. So because they just gave him the retirement retirement.
Host 49:27
Right and so what have been his feelings since the coup broke
Susan Zaw 49:33
he was also a protester in Ada. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But not very intense. Just just protesting like our fast man with with his friends so he didn't know exactly what his sprites and but later he joined the army because at the time the military was very strong, that no one can beat him down. beat beat it down. So his parent my thought the military's from so if he tried to military he will also be will also be strong plan and maybe he could paint one. But they are thinking around in the military. He thought he is he says they are their office stuff. My My mother has to do some stuff to she, she didn't want or not whatever. We didn't like the military. And we were happy when Yeah, when we have to get out of it. And we are still very happy. Why we are outside at this time.
Host 50:52
I see. That's, that's interesting. And so all of these events transpired to be able to encourage you to be a revolutionary and help the cause in any way you can. What have you been doing these past number of months to find your place of what you can do to support the resistance?
Susan Zaw 51:10
Oh, yes, I, at first, at the very first day, like February and March, I was a ground protester. But, you know, the protests don't have any weapons and why the military started fighting as we, we don't know how to defend them. So we just stay home in start from start from April. And later, I wanted to try the sprites again, after the holiday of April, you know, the this festival in April in Myanmar. That's why we don't go out at this time. But later, I wanted to try this try again. A friend to join the people army. The people on the it's the PDF. The people are nice. So he called me. And he was in the he was in some way. And in the pitching military. And so he wanted to come back Durango and he said, can you support him? So I say yes, because I was so glad that he called me because I wanted also to try the the other army to fight them back. But he said that's very tired, and I can't be able to hold it. So it has support with Manning and other stuff. Like, like hiding hiding him in a safe house and hiding his stuffs in house without knowing anyone.
Host 53:04
Aha, so that was one of the first activities that you did that was really starting to actually support the resistance and what roles have you taken on since then? What are the main things you do that fill your days in terms of how you're supporting the people?
Susan Zaw 53:21
Mostly many by my foreign friends, they also have me a lot. And later I joined a group that the writing side wars and some contracts to seduce soldiers to teach ICBM so I was a content warrior.
Host 53:44
And how so let's take the first thing you said which was fundraising? How do you go about getting funds? How hard is it to get funds? How are you able to bring about funds and then what you do with them?
Susan Zaw 53:58
Yeah, that's a first it's difficult. And this situation this to two friends who support me from foreign countries. So I bought something from them. And I gave I gave the people who need in the country and also my friends. It's a member and they also find a lot of fan writing proposals and making some process we add from it. Just like teachings EDM soldiers make me make me pay so I can I can share from that.
Host 54:44
Let's look at that activity a little more. So you are engaging with the soldiers who have chosen to defect from the tatmadaw and you're teaching them English which is actually your profession, your career before The coup happened was you were an English teacher? So this is something that you're skilled to do. Can you share a bit about what it's like engaging with these defected soldiers what you've learned about their, I know you're just teaching them English. But even through that interaction, I'm sure you get to see something of their personality and how the relationship goes and something about their their background or character just comes out naturally, as you're having conversations, what have you learned about these soldiers who's affected through teaching them English?
Susan Zaw 55:33
They are very obedience, maybe like, natural. And they, they respect me. Some are older than me. There's federal law. And we're so happy, why I'm teaching and the the in charge in charge of the sizes said, they are a pledge they thought they could make it. And they, they appreciate that cared about them. Because they might also saw that people are hating soldiers. Actually, no, we hate just dictatorship. And we just hate the ones who obey together civilians without any reason. So think we understand each other?
Host 56:26
How many soldiers are you teaching?
Susan Zaw 56:30
It just around?
Host 56:34
Hmm, that's interesting. Do you ever have conversations with them? Like outside of English? Like do they ever ask you questions about because they've been in the military, which is a very insular culture. So do they ever ask you questions about life outside? Or do you ever talk to them about their, their time in the military or why you chose to defect or any conversations that happen outside of English instruction?
Susan Zaw 56:58
not found yet. But I have a plan to, to act like this, because I want to know more about them fly to Detroit City, em, and how much difficult it's someone be in church, the church plan is a wife of a wife of a soldier. And she, she texts me, actually, not just to me, we have a group to have soldiers, wives and children. So in that group, the text about how much difficulty they faced by joining CDM. They are, they're all sick of killing people. And they don't want their husband to be a killer. So they decided to try to is very difficult, and they have no regret of joining CDM because we care about them so much. And they are also some some more groups that support phone, phone bills, or like food for them and the children. So they don't need to worry about their living. Yeah.
Host 58:23
That's interesting, because often, when we think of soldiers defecting from the military, we think about how do we reach them? And what messaging do we give them? And how are they being brainwashed and everything along with that, and what you're saying is actually, it's the woman who holds sway and a lot of the decisions. It's the woman who is pushing the soldier, I'm sure it's not there's different relationships and different power dynamics. But you're saying that in many cases, the woman is the driving force behind encouraging the husband to leave or to stay.
Susan Zaw 58:58
The women, the woman's are the main because the husband also might not want to kill the innocent people. Some, I mean, some, some are very happy to do that. They have if they have no background support, they can do it. They couldn't do it. But find the encouraging first from their feeler wives. That's a lot of strengths by by center anything right?
Host 59:34
And I guess they don't, I guess, these fearsome soldiers that are going out and causing terror in the country. I guess the one thing that they really don't want to handle is the scorn of their wife.
Susan Zaw 59:47
Yeah. I think I can also feel that they are a lot more people to try CPM because they also see for This the situation and like banking system and other educational system for the Tyrians. Also, to, to make money outside is more difficult. So everybody is sick probably Bobby's. Yeah,
Host 1:00:23
sure, sure. So is there and is there some kind of effort being made to not only target the soldiers but to actually really go after their wives if they're if the wives are the ones who are holding some of the power and the decision making ability, has there been work to try to orient the defects and strategies to them to to get their ear and to encourage them to use their power over their husbands to try to leave?
Susan Zaw 1:00:50
Yeah, I, we have a meeting with a soldier's wife so I can tell in more detail about about that update. I was invited to that meeting.
Host 1:01:05
All right, that's, that's really interesting. So do you know if there's been if if other groups have had some kind of strategy or some kind of work trying to make contact with the wives and encourage them to defect?
Susan Zaw 1:01:19
Yes, we are planning your planning about it. So we already have approval for that. And we plan to also seduce and encourage the wives and the children, like giving them making them classes like making, making and protecting, or some other teaching some other languages like Spanish or Chinese. So even if they are not in the military, they can do some more work outside and they can earn money on that. So we are planning it.
Host 1:02:02
Yeah, I guess that they're the wives as well as the soldiers are being treated with respect and humanely and valued and, and spoken to civilly. And that's quite a contrast to what their experiences in the military were, again, this is a fascist organization where there is common abuse from senior to junior, and you and Peter, the wider people are treating them in a different way than they were accustomed to.
Susan Zaw 1:02:35
In the military, the positions is matter, just the position matters. Because if your hazmat position is higher, you can even say you can request anything you want to take the others who are lower position, can you help.
Host 1:03:03
And this also seems to kind of go back to the earlier conversation we were having about the nuance of humanity and of human values, and how even some of the worst Nazis like Herman Goering, or some of the worst people in the automaton, they probably still have some shred of humanity or their their kind of their dog or their wife or their kids or someone that they they have some humanity somewhere that can be tapped. And just as in an organization, that's, that's as evil and fascist as the tatmadaw, that there are so many people in there that don't necessarily want to be there or doing what they're doing. Or maybe they're caught in the system and making bad decisions, but they can still be reached, they can still be tapped. And that's why this defection strategy, and the defection work is so so important, because it is a non violent means of trying to reach a shred of humanity of, as you said, psychopaths with guns that are causing all of this damage. And the the whole mindset around defection, I would say is believing in the goodness of humanity, believing that even in the darkest of situations, and in speaking to an aggressor, that there is a way to talk to someone with that mindset and find that humanity if you're skillful and be able to speak not out of fear or anger or hatred for what they're doing, but to be able to identify that humanity that's buried somewhere in there and speak to that goodness, to be able to make a decision, which is actually not harming anyone is actually diffusing and resolving the situation. So, you know, this is this is really, really great work and it really takes a mature mindset behind the work to be able to implement it.
Susan Zaw 1:04:59
That While we are trying to try to remind their sympathy and empathy so they can, they can stay. Remember, they are also human like us. And we can all without the thing. They might know that he had to take my mercy on the aliens, while their duty is to protect us not to kill us, you're reminded.
Host 1:05:29
Right, and along with that many of the people in the military are Buddhists. And Buddhism is a value that even the top generals promote. And so I'm wondering when you're talking to soldiers or their wives, and you're reminding them of certain kinds of commitments to protect people and looking for this humanity buried within? Where does the role of Buddhism and Buddhist values fit into this kind of conversation?
Susan Zaw 1:06:03
I'm not very sure about that. Because I guess in Moultrie, there's only eight years, so I'm not sure about it, but they really value about their their higher position guys, because they was trained to obey the orders now to question about it. So all you're also doing texting, texting them by fiber, Chris got, a friend of me got the phone numbers, a lot of phone numbers like, like 1000s of them. So there's also a worrier who called us to text them by, by the application to try to want to join CDM. And so they can have some soldiers belief and interest. It's some scene using wars and lock.
Host 1:07:13
Right. And of course, this is where the spy games come into it, because you have two strangers on both sides of the line that have to trust each other, you are offering soldiers to defect on Viber. And there's a danger that some of those soldiers could be spies that are pretending to defect and actually getting Intel, the soldier himself has to also be careful, because there could be a military in format that's pretending to offer him defection. And that will actually entrap him if he accepts. And so it sounds like that's a very fraught situation, kind of spy game of both sides having to feel each other out and being total strangers to know if and how they can trust.
Susan Zaw 1:07:57
Yeah, just just trust, so we don't know each other. And some, even though we don't know each other, and we can see each other some sort of belief. No, they, because they wanted to know what is CDM. And as our situation worse, they thought they might get better in life. Of course, they are getting better lives. And Sam beliefs blindly. And Sam, not saying most of mucho banter, believers. But who cares if there's also one person who believe that that's a win. That's okay.
Host 1:08:41
So that's all really interesting. I really thank you for sharing this for sharing your story, the family that you came from, and how your path to becoming revolutionary what you're doing now. And your involvement with these defected soldiers, as well as the wives think that's quite educational for all of us. And we really wish everyone the best there, myself, everyone on this platform. We are doing everything we can to support you at this time. And part of that is being able to have these interviews where these voices can get out to so many other people and hear them and understand what's going on raise awareness and hopefully support as well. The work you're doing with defection is so important. Our nonprofit has used quite a bit of the donations we've received to be able to support the defection movement. As we've mentioned, this is the greatest hope of non violence that we have here of speaking to this humanity and trying to defuse the situation in that way. And so we really encourage listeners that are interested to if you have the means to be able to give a donation smaller, big to be able to support this defection effort, which can any donation that goes to our nonprofits can be earmarked for the work that Susan is doing and we can make Make sure that we get her those funds. Because this is one of the most important things we can be doing to save lives now and Susan is at the center of this work. So we thank her for that. And thank her for coming on and explaining and sharing your story here. And thank you so much for your time.
Susan Zaw 1:10:20
Thank you so much for your precious time.
Host 1:11:07
One of the most tragic aspects of the current crisis in Myanmar, is how isolated Burmese protesters feel. And in fact our this has been compounded by bank closures and as a result, ordinary wire transfers are not possible. Thankfully, through a trusted local network, we're able to ensure that all donations successfully reach their intended target. So if you found yourself moved by today's discussion and want to do what you can to help, please consider giving to our fund, which is 100% directed towards supporting the movement. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form of currency or transfer method. Every cent goes immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. donations go to support such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CBM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guest you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called Better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website, which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burn off. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. In all cases, that's betterburma one word spelled b e t t e r b u r m a. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration okay, I made it a little bit longer. And while I'm doing this job.