Transcript: Episode #207: Nobuko Nakano
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Host 0:39
you're listening to an interview that was recorded before the military coup in Myanmar. As many listeners know, after the coup took place, we transformed our mission to respond to the urgent needs at the time. We're now going back through these previously recorded interviews, which largely focus on meditation and the spiritual path and releasing them now. This is quite a rich conversation which follows and let's get into that.
Host 2:04
Nobu, it's so great to have you as a guest on the Insight Myanmar podcast, I was thinking about your biography in preparation for the interview. And one thing I realized is that, while you and I are actually from different corners of the earth, and we're from different ethnic heritages, not only are we basically roughly the same age, but there's this surprising degree of overlap in our friends, practices, teachers experiences, as we'll learn once we get into your story a bit in this interview. But in any case, it's great to have the chance to sit down with you, even if we're talking from opposite sides of the world right now. And I'm looking forward to exploring how Brahma dama has shaped and played such a profound role in your life. So thanks for taking the time to be with us today.
Nobuko Nakano 2:48
You're welcome. My pleasure. Yeah. So
Host 2:52
let's start from the beginning. You were born in Hiroshima. Your father was stationed there with the Japanese Navy. But you only lived there in Russia, Japan for two and a half years. Do you have any memories of your early time in Japan?
Nobuko Nakano 3:05
Um, no, I don't. But I must say when I do go back, you know, for a holiday, you know, the sensory things like the smell. The energy of being in Japan is like very, it's, it's it's very grassroots familiarity. I don't have any, like, very basic memories of actually living there.
Host 3:34
Right, great. So your parents move to Melbourne, Australia, when you were two and a half and you've lived there most of your life? Would you say that you identify more with being an Australian citizen or your Japanese heritage or maybe both equally in different ways? Um,
Nobuko Nakano 3:49
yeah, definitely, I'd say that I really identified with both and, um, you know, I think perhaps it's also growing up as a Buddhist, I didn't really have an inclination towards an identity, like, you know, even if I would look in the mirror and I'd see Asian features and you know, my black hair and but I because I grew up with a very, you know, Caucasian, external surroundings like my friends and you know, teachers and schools, they were very white Australian. So I felt like I just really assimilated and blended in with the white Australian upbringing. Right, right. Right.
Host 4:38
And you mentioned a bit about your family and your, you did grow up in a Buddhist home and Mahayana Buddhist home where your mother was, came from that traditional background and have that in your home as well. So what formed this Mahayana practice or beliefs or religion take in your home as you were growing up?
Nobuko Nakano 4:59
You Yeah, um, so my parents background is in the Japanese niche, it ensures your hog Gecko which is, which is rooted in the Mahayana tradition. It's a religion that's like more than 800 years old. The head temple toesIK, eg it's at the bottom of Mount Fuji. And, you know, I grew up reciting the heart. I think it's the Heart Sutra, the Lotus Sutra, I think it's the Heart Sutra. And basically, we need to chant the Nam, you're holding gakyil Before we leave the house when we come back to the house, and also I think there's morning and evening chants as well, which are a lot more in depth. Yeah, and basically, with this tradition, there's, you know, if you live outside of Japan, you're meant to actually make pilgrimages back to tie CQG to Mount Fuji. I think it's once a year. You Yeah. So yeah, that's what I grew up doing.
Host 6:17
So it mainly took the form of chanting.
Nobuko Nakano 6:19
Yeah, that's right, um, chanting. And I think there was like an unspoken understanding, you know, of what is really wholesome, you know, wholesome way to behave wholesome way to interact with others. You know, I wasn't like a taught thing about precepts. But of course, the thing about, you know, not lying, and being very aware of how we speak and how we received, I think it's a very underlying Japanese way of communicating as well being very mindful of the impact we have on others as we speak. Yeah, that was a very ingrained thing that that I experienced. And I do think it was influenced by being, you know, brought up in a Buddhist family.
Host 7:17
So how would you say that this kind of ritual affected you and your belief system? Is you grew up? Like, did it seem more religious or spiritual or ethical or perhaps cultural? Or is it hard to put a label on it?
Nobuko Nakano 7:36
Yeah, I would say that it definitely influenced me and being a lot more aware of ethical practices, a deeper sense of morality. You know, I feel like ever since I was little, I had quite a strong practice of self awareness and awareness of myself and for others. So your question was, that whether my upbringing did affect me, like, in an ethical way, what was what were the other ones? Morally?
Host 8:14
Yeah, so just like what form did it take? Did you see it as like a religious or spiritual or ethical or cultural? Or was it some combination? Or did you not really think in labels, but kind of what role did this Mahayana Buddhist practice and home play in your in the way you look at the world, and as you grew up? Yeah, um, well,
Nobuko Nakano 8:34
I feel like it definitely gave me an opportunity to really view life from a much deeper space. Like, at a very young age, I understood about death, you know, I was six years old, five years old. And one of my sisters have sisters who are much older, and they are going through high school. And, you know, they told me one of my sisters told me about this book that she had been reading in her like English class, and it was called Ellie and it was a true story based on a young girl who had gone through Auschwitz. And, you know, to hear about this and to understand the meaning of, you know, the human will to live in conditions, like how in this book, it was presented this girl in order to live she basically had food like worms, you know, and you know, absolutely inhumane conditions and, you know, I, I experienced listening to that, and also my complete terror, understanding what death meant at such a young age. And I realize now in hindsight that that understanding of death, it was really profound to learn about that, because, you know, in the Buddhist point of view, the life and death have very much the two sides of the same coin, and to always have that fundamental awareness of deaths in our daily lives, you know, knowing we, we don't, we don't, you know, have a choice, and when we're going to die really, or unless, you know, you choose to go down that road, but, you know, we don't really know when we're going to die. And when you have that own awareness that yeah, fundamental things are deeper, things in life become a lot more precious, and it can let go of a lot more of, you know, the superficial, you know, the dramas or, you know, the superficial thoughts that are going on, don't get so attached to them. Yeah, and, and, yeah, I definitely feel I'm very grateful that I had the influence of my mother is actually quite strict and her practice, so she always encouraged us to, you know, come and see the Japanese priests, when they came the Buddhist priests, and to, you know, receive the blessings. And in Melbourne, there's our, there's an organization, there's a group, you know, of all these practitioners who practice need to ensure sure. And, you know, we would go to these groups to do the group chanting and, you know, they were a one day event. And yeah, and, you know, they've fundamentally very strong in their practice, and they follow that. And, I mean, you know, now as I've gotten older, I don't really go to these meetings anymore, and I have actually broken away, you know, because, for me, you know, my life is about following what is authentically, you know, right for me in my practice, and not that I, you know, feel that there's anything wrong with that religion as such, but just practicing what feels more aligned with me in you know, developing the moment to moment awareness a lot more and yeah,
Host 12:25
right. It's interesting, you were mentioning before, just the about growing up in a Japanese home and the Mahayana practice, and I can't quite remember the way you put it, but you were talking about just a general awareness that it gave you. And it reminded me I went to Japan to teach English when I was 21 years old, which I still think of myself at that age is quite young and immature in some ways. And that was several years before I started doing meditation. But I just my first couple years there, they were just profound experiences of being in such a different culture and, you know, some of the most transformative and amazing time in my life of just learning things about like, being comfortable with silence and conversation and the proximity of how I'm standing next to someone while I'm talking or in the subway and how I'm how I'm using my body and my voice and the content of what I'm saying. And even my posture in how I'm using that, like in a public space. And so even though I didn't have any meditation practice, and I didn't even know what meditation was, there was this kind of mindfulness or awareness that I I had never experienced before in my life and in terms of interpersonal relations and, and taking up space and such like that. And so it was, you know, to me that was that was one of the things I've always been really grateful to jet for Japanese culture for and they've stayed with me forever and they're, they're almost like, tools I feel that I can I can go into a conversation and be a Westerner and you know, be be talkative and talking over people and having lots of ideas and excited and then I have a I'm grateful I have a tool as well where if a if a conversation is going in a different direction, I have the freedom to not not share an opinion I have the freedom to not have an opinion I have the freedom to just sit and be I have the freedom to to let things ruminate and sit there before I have to say something so I'm not sure if if any of that rings or resonates with what your experience was, but it just made me think of that as you said that earlier on.
Nobuko Nakano 14:32
You know, I looked Japanese even though i i can speak and read and write Japanese, though not fluently. You know, I could really blend in with the crowd, but to to observe it I feel like the Japanese culture is you know, it does have that really deep you know, beauty of being gratitude for so many things. You know this This, there's such deep awareness in, in how we communicate in terms of politeness and manners. You know, as you enter even the supermarket, you know, the the women bow and they say they'll show mercy. And, you know, all the formalities that going if you work in a business corporation as well. I do actually from a, you know, Westerners point of view, but and also Japanese point of view that working in a corporation, you know, following such stringent, like, systematic ways of behaving or expressing expectancies to behave. But yeah, it can feel a little bit regimented, and sometimes a bit restrictive, and almost like, okay, that that's the kind of, you know, slightly robotic persona that I need to be in order to please others, and also to just fit into the system. I think also, I do understand what you mean, that you do learn so much about yourself to in this aspect in that kind of system. And, for me, I also did understand my internal freedom within that system in like, because I worked in a company, also teaching English but because my job was predominantly to actually speak fluently in English, even with the children. And even in the company space, you know, I was actually encouraged to speak English. In that, yeah. I think that that experience of knowing, you know, good ways to teach skillful ways to express myself in English, like, in very basic ways to the children, and sort of understanding the kind of like, Fine, the finer areas Yeah, inside myself. Yeah, but I, you know, I always found being in Japan, like, very supportive, you know, I, yeah, I, I didn't really feel, you know, neglected, or, you know, wherever I went, I just could feel that there was general. Yeah, I felt like I was held in like a, you know, a mother's arm all the time, just with so much. I just felt that there was a lot of love in exchange, you know, wherever I went. So, yeah, in that sense, having feeling that support, and that general love, as well as that room to do that self exploration. Yeah, it's a really wonderful country to Yeah, to really have that depth of self self exploration and self investigation on a very, sort of, yes, silent. It's a silent passage. But you coming out on the other end, like when I came back to Australia, I could really feel I was in a different space, and I had grown. So
Host 18:09
let's get back to your story and where you were, at that time, you were on a fairly typical educational path, you're achieving high grades and elite girls school and then being on track to study marine biology yet, Charles Sturt University in Queensland, but deep down, you mentioned not really being satisfied with this path. Why was that? Yeah,
Nobuko Nakano 18:30
um, well, I had done a year of study at Latrobe University in here in Melbourne. And, you know, my thoughts were to go on to studying. I eventually wanted to become an oceanographer. So in order to do that, I needed to study marine biology. Um, yeah, I think it was really, you know, inside myself, you know, I was 18. And, you know, having gone through a girl School, which was pretty, you know, they set pretty high standards. Yeah, it was a it was a lovely school Canterbury girls. I, and yeah, and also going through a year of uni, I just, I wasn't feeling very happy. You know, I think there's a part of me that always yearns to investigate and understanding what freedom is. And, you know, I'm born near the horse and the horse never wants to be rained. So, you know, I definitely felt some pool inside myself. You know, that deep unsatisfactoriness of like, No, you know, what do I need to do? Okay, I'm going to take a year off uni, I'm going to defer and, you know, I'm gonna work and so I mean, I had already been working, you know, as a junior since I was 14. So, going into the workforce was A new thing but to actually consciously take and seek, you know, high position jobs actually in the adult world, yeah, I definitely felt like it was my next step to, to opening a gate of, you know, that sense of freedom or self exploration. Yeah, so I ended up getting two very good jobs. I worked one job in the Park Hyatt, and also another job in a Japanese department store, Dima Rue, which was used to be in Melbourne. Yeah, so I work those two jobs and along with that, you know, came my whole experimenting in life, which really hot, you know, open the floodgates in my mental space around understanding how people can really connect to one another, you know, beyond the three dimensional ego space that you know, many people in life that's all they know, you know, in this you know, in the in the matrix in the five to nine grind. Yeah, but actually going through my whole partying stage and I went to a lot of raves when the rave scene in Melbourne was still very underground. And yeah, and I experienced taking a lot of psychedelics and you know, people you know, ask me if I regret it, and you know, I never never ever, you know, will regret it because it helped me to bridge you know, it's like small windows in the brain in there just completely opening to understanding Yeah, the facets of reality that the very intangible to work you know, you can't actually touch them, but you can feel them incense them. And I think the the connectedness actually happens, definitely within our, in our brain, but also in that connectedness in our brain, then we can really connect to other people's brain brains and hearts as well. So yeah, and and also, you know, I grew up very, very introverted, as well as quite shy. And, and going through the whole party scene, it really opened me up to developing you know, lifelong friendships, you know, people who I still have in my life now and consider my oldest friends. So. Yeah, understanding on a deeper level, what true heart connection intimacy means with other people,
Host 22:45
when you feel that your experimentation phase of like partying and psychedelics and rave that that that was what brought about that realization and connection at that time.
Nobuko Nakano 22:56
Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, I think also, not just that, but in my moments of taking LSD is that it helped me to understand. You know, at that time, I hadn't been meditating, the past and the years for pastor came a few years later, but it gave me that really strong sense of understanding what it meant to have the reins in my hand to actually become the master of my mind to know, because when I was actually on it, I actually felt that I could almost control what was going to happen next. And, you know, because the, the mental space the, the, the space of like, intention, the space of, you know, you know, I, the back of my mind willing something to happen, and it would happen. And that's when I really first started to realize, okay, on a total experiential, experiential level, that yeah, if we have intention, and whatever is behind that intention will occur, you know, that, you know, that's why it became so important to come from a wholesome, you know, space of mind as much of the time as possible. And then the outcome, you know, would happen, which was something that I really wanted and often they were most most of the time they were pretty wholesome. Yeah, so on that space, that's why it was so fundamentally an important time in my life. It really gave me that sense on a tangible level to to know that, you know, whatever I really want to manifest it will happen.
Host 24:53
Yeah. So I think from my side hearing that it reminds me of when I was in college and then after right after college, I went to Japan. And I also it's funny, you mentioned how you you feel a sense of love and support in Japan, I feel like Japan just played a whole role and how it raised me, you know, and being an adult for the first time and having adventures and then learning meditation and so many things that it just those formative ages really, really raised and trained me in a lot of ways. But both before I went to Japan, when I was in college, as well as when I was in Japan, I definitely also had somewhat of a party slash adventure mindset of, you know, Jack Kerouac and, and, and that whole spirit and being with friends and just going going out into nature or in the in the cities and just kind of seeing what what would unfold in front of us. And actually, a number of people, number of meditators in the West like us, Well, it's certainly not uncommon for them to come to the Dhamma from a background of drugs and the connection between exploring the mind with drugs and exploring it with and then wanting to take a to explore it in a different way. For me, I think it was a bit more circuitous because I had a terrifying terrible mushroom trip and Tokyo, as I was just sitting on the curb, just trying to, to just manage and just survive. I just had, I just had this clear. I had this clear perception, that was like, you know, like telling myself a part of my mind just saying, What are you doing, man, like, you're, you're out here, you're trying to have these experiences in the mind. And you have no idea what you're getting into. Because I was so overwhelmed this mushroom trip, I was just terrified. It was a terrible, terrible experience. And it was actually off the back of one that was also very scary. And, and it was just this clear sense that like, I need to do this in a really mature and careful and respectful and humble way. And I need a teacher. And, you know, I don't want to try to get into this fear again, until I'm really approaching it with the proper respect. And I had no idea how that was I tried to sit Zen meditation, but they wouldn't accept me because I was a I wasn't fluent in Japanese and B, I couldn't sit Saison with the necessary Nazis. I couldn't sit full lotus. And so I had no idea where I can go to practice. But one day when I was I remember the moment clearly I was I was in my office at the school and Rupert Taylor, British expat who is grateful to this day, maybe he's listened to this podcast mentioned to a friend he had just gone on this the passion of retreat. And, and I was like, you know, this was like, six months or something after this terrifying mushroom trip. And I was just like, this is the humble, respectful way that I wanted to go and understand my mind. And getting back to your story. You know, your first taste of meditation you also came from, from psychedelics, pardoning, etc, into meditation, maybe maybe, slightly different than, than the kick in the butt that I had. But your first taste of meditation was also a 10 day, the passion of course, and the tradition of going like mine, mine was Adama Babu in Kyoto, yours was at Dharma loca outside of Melbourne. So What compelled you to take this course in the midst of everything else going on? At that time?
Nobuko Nakano 28:24
Well, actually, my first experience with meditation was wasn't like, okay, the passive meditation was my first official, like, you know, experience of a solid, grounded, intensive meditation, but my boyfriend at the time, who, when I was in the partying scene, he actually taught me to meditate when we were coming one morning, and I realized how grounded and clear I felt. And so, you know, I could see Yeah, a few years later, so, that was when I was 21. And then, I think it was about three, three years later that I yeah, that I, you know, found my way to the passenger center. Yeah, Dahmer loco, but I was then going out with a different boyfriend. And he had done 10 days for passing a course. And, you know, he said, Oh, you know, you could you could do it, like, you know, you were brought up first and you know, he wasn't inspiration because he was smoking a lot of weed and he was pretty stoned. He wasn't practicing. But he did. You know, he did say, and then also, you know, because I listened to synchronicity in my life, and soon after him. I then met a girl that I knew who had done a shiatsu course with met her at like a have like a organic market. And she was in a really great space. And I said, oh, oh, you know, how are you going? You know, where have you been? And she goes, Yeah, I've just come out of the past. And of course, and, you know, I could see how clear she looked and how grounded she signed. And I thought, yeah, I'm gonna go and do it. So, yeah, I did it. And I did it with my twin sister, our first course. And so that was in 2004. Here for, I mean, it was really, it was really definitely, you know, leading up to doing that course. And, and fundamentally, like, I was looking for a way, and I knew that it was possible to experience, you know, the clarity of the mind, the clarity of, you know, the moment and being so in the moment awareness without drugs, I knew it was possible, you know, and, and, you know, when I did the pasma course? Yeah, I realized on a tangible level that that, that was, you know, more than true, you know, that was that was totally possible to do.
Host 31:16
Right. So then did you start seeing changes in your life after that first course?
Nobuko Nakano 31:22
Well, I was still partying. You know, after my first course, I didn't totally come clean. And I was still having intoxicants. So, you know, I wasn't fully committed, I was going to the center to serve, you know, a little bit here and there, because I came in asked me and yeah, so I wasn't really committed, in a serious way. And I wasn't doing, you know, the recommended one hour in the morning, one hour in the evening sets. It was really, from 2000. And he was at 2007. So three years later, that's when I really started to commit. Yeah.
Host 32:18
Right. And you had mentioned before that, while you found the passion of practice of Glinka, more experiential, it was your mother's Mahayana Buddhism that really instilled this deep moral sense. And I'm curious, because for many people, you know, myself included, the experience of the passion is like this whole new world. And Buddhism itself was something that I had only really encountered in a few books, I never really met many Buddhists in my life even not, I say that, I remember that. When I was at college, there was this Japanese American guy from Hawaii, who was raised Buddhist, and I was actually like, really excited to meet someone because I had read about this in that book, but I'd never met anyone that was raised with any, any sector tradition of the faith. And, and like him, you know, you also grew up in a Buddhist home, and but you went on to sit this function, of course, so was it? What was it like going deeper into the doctrine even if it was a different tradition? Did you see a connection between how you were raised and then the course you were taking? Or was it really something wholly different?
Nobuko Nakano 33:21
Well, you know, like, what they teach in the Pastner is really you know, understanding the practice of developing awareness and equanimity, they are tools to actually practice in, you know, in our everyday life in all aspects of our life. So becomes a life practice. And yeah, I feel and also because with the Terra Vardan teachings is a very clear understanding, knowing of really to practice the precepts and why the reason why is really given you know, by upholding our precepts, you know, no killing, no stealing, no lying, no sexual misconduct and know intoxicants. You know, the reason why we uphold them is essentially, not only does it create, you know, a wholesome mind for ourselves where we don't, you know, harm ourselves and we don't harm others, but also eventually by you know, practicing these five branches, then we then develop our sealer, our precepts, which then strengthens our Samadhi concentration in our life. And because you have concentration then, you know, you have deeper awareness and what you're doing moment to moment. You know, completely ripples out where, you know, you also have so much awareness that you're, you know, doing things that are completely beneficial. You're not hurt Having ourselves not harming others again. And then which entire in turn, it then develops deeper and deeper wisdom. Oh yes, this is the right way or no, that that's a mistake, you know, and it's, it's a forever growing snowball effect. And yeah, with, with the the personal, I feel like in time why I, you know, you know, gently, gently let go of, you know, practicing the nature to ensure sure, I haven't completely let go. But you know, I still have a lot of respect for it. It's just that on a very, you know, day to day level, just in behavior, you know, having this awareness about, you know, what we're doing, how we're saying how we're relating, in our actions, I feel there's so much more deeper awareness it, for me, it's an extension of what I grew up with. So, you know, my, my mother's religion helped me to create that foundation, you know, the foundation of living a wholesome life, you know, as much as possible. Being aware of my actions towards others, and actions towards myself. And then the Pastner strengthen that it can't it's like, you know, if you have a house, you know, if you do a renovation or to add rooms to it, you extend on it, you know, you're adding more rooms, it becomes a stronger, more solid house with stronger foundations. And yeah, and so the Pastner for me, helps me to definitely go deeper inside myself, you know, even when, you know, I'm doing daily things like I drive a lot because I like I live like an hour and a half from Melbourne. So, you know, even when I'm driving, you know, just being really aware with my with myself with my thoughts, how I'm driving, if I'm starting to drive really aggressively, you know, or just to know when to pull back. So I'm karma. Yeah. And also, you know, I practice Bikram yoga and, you know, having this awareness inside myself moment to moment awareness when I'm practicing, you know, Bikram Yoga is a very intense practice. And, yeah, just knowing how to curb the practice. So that it's, it's not such a like, people have a very big perception that Bikram yoga is very, you know, a type Go Go Go people which it can be, but it's not it. You know, for me, I realized, you know that that's a perception. That's not my truth. My practice is about tailoring it so that I am still really soft and gentle. And being with that moment to moment, you know, breath awareness in such a strong physical cardio practice, and yeah, that physical aspect helps my mind to go even deeper. And that's, you know, utilizing the Vipassana meditation, you know, awareness, my breath awareness of my sensations.
Host 38:26
Right, right. Right. Yeah, great, great. And, also, I noticed, like around this time, if there's some parallel to the track, I was on, as I mentioned, a bit before, you know, you, you went to Okayama, Japan to teach English in 2006. I was in Japan a bit earlier than that I was around the Tokyo region, and then also Kyoto. And then after some time in Japan, you went back to do long term service at dama. Luca, I was also in the space of like, kind of meditating, and also partying and working and trying to figure out what to do. And then I also left all of that myself and just sat and served the Dharma Babu and Kyoto for a while, and that first year and a half, it's really the only thing I knew of the passionate world, just in that little small, you know, three quarters of an acre, Senator at the time, and and then soon after that, I also traveled to India, you did that as well, you. You eventually went to India and Burma for deeper practice, which we'll get into in a moment. I guess what I'm curious about now is kind of like that transitional period that you were passing through, you know, that these really powerful years of growth where you see this light and promise through these passionate courses, but you also have your attachments and explorations in worldly society and looking at how these all fit together. And and what what fruits are getting out of these different practices. Eventually, of course, you end up in India which will get to in a moment. But before you made that decision to go to India, how were you putting all these pieces together? As you were? You were doing? You're kind of juggling a lot of things at the same time.
Nobuko Nakano 40:09
Yeah, well, so from 2007 to 2009, I lived Dharma loca, which is the pastor center outside Melbourne. And, you know, within that time, like, essentially, my, my outlook was, yeah, I'm gonna live here for six months, you know, I had just done a year of teaching in Japan, I came back to Australia, you know, I was in that space, I was 2728. And, you know, at that time, you know, in life for a lot of people, you know, if you're not already sort of, you know, pretty solid in the matrix, having career, like, it can be a time where people are really, you know, either go in that space of, you know, I really want to find something that's deeper and much more relevant to me my path, or, you know, they end up in, you know, whatever, you know, having families or relationships. But, yeah, because I was at that fork in the road, okay. I'm going to go on Live at the VA pasman Center, I actually sent them an email on the way at the airport at Kansai Airport in Osaka, saying, I'm going to come and live here. So, you know, it was very much it was an impromptu, but also slight act of desperation. Like I really didn't know what I wanted to do. But I needed to go somewhere, I, I just knew that I was going to be able to pull myself together. Yeah, I could just sense you know, like, that year in Japan was, you know, it was a year of like, you know, how hedonistic the society in Japan is, there's so much, you know, pleasure in taking, you know, can, you know, smoke and drink so much. And, you know, there's no tax on those things. So it's very cheap. So, but I just knew that that pleasure seeking that hedonistic lifestyle, it didn't bring any pleasure, because I was feeling pretty, you know, by the time I got to Osaka airport, I was feeling pretty crusty. I was just like, No, I can't keep doing this, you know, and I, because I'd already done the Pastner. And I knew the benefits and how clear I felt I was like, No, I've heard that people can actually go on Live at the center. That's what I'm gonna do. So yeah, I, you know, during that time that I lived it, dharma loca, you know, like, my, I'm very lucky, my mom's really open minded, and she's pretty relaxed. And she's not the traditional, sort of, I think even Japanese Mom, where they kind of try to pin you towards getting a career. And, you know, she'd asked me, you know, here and there, like, Oh, are you still living at the center? And, you know, is that what you want to do kind of thing that, you know, she saw that I was fairly happy, when I'd go and visit her and I, you know, the thing the first six months, the conditionings of the mind, like, it's very interesting, I could see on a tangible level, how much, you know, in the Western mind, the indoctrination that we can have, like, whether it's around the education, the societal beliefs, the societal expectations, so for me, the societal beliefs, man, okay, I'm 2728 I need to be heading into career, a solid, you know, having a solid system, my life, you know, perhaps looking at somehow, in the next few years, getting getting together, having a family, you know, a house and all that. And I realized how much how strong those societal expectation voices were, in my mind. And the first six months were really challenging. I mean, not only I was actually, you know, detoxing a lot of the intoxicants that I had been having, so, you know, a lot of the, you know, the years of taking drugs from partying, the previous year of smoking, drinking alcohol, so it was like a full on detox, you know, and so I was experiencing a lot of, you know, body fluctuations, my temperature was going up and down, and I was sweating like a pig and, you know, my moods, like, I was absolutely furious at some meditators. And, you know, I really had to restrain myself and, you know, all these things came up, but then, you know, I think there was some point maybe about six to eight months of living in the center where, you know, it is strong, you know, the vibrations in the partner Center are really strong and, you know, you'd know from if you were, you know, serving long term It, you know, the interactions that, you know, I might have with people that might trigger things, you know, inside me like wanting to react, you know, all those kinds of interactions can be so strong, but, you know, fundamentally through the continuation of meditation and you know, that really strong FIRE OF FURY slowly, slowly dying down, and you know, the calmness, the ability to take a hold of my, you know, emotions observed myself a lot, a lot better. Mm, and fundamentally, understanding what it meant to create really good solid systems inside myself, like systems in terms of, you know, how I behave, what do I do like sort of that they were a bit more strategic stretch, mentally Strategic Systems. But, yeah, things that I applied inside myself. You know, for example, because I was living there long term that I became quite careful around, you know, every course I would be the female manager, but also being the female manager not to interact too deeply, too much with the other servers that came on because for those who don't know how the passiveness causes work with most Australian centers, the 10 day course happens, there's usually a three or four day break in between, after the course is finished, and then there's a turnover and another 10 day course will start. So for those that are living at the center, it's it's like a snowball of perpetual motion of internal, you know, the energy beat building up, but also, you know, it's a real test to see if people if, you know, if I was really practicing, you know, what was being taught, which was being economist with a lot of my emotions that were coming up. And emotionally, the economy, quantum equanimity, it doesn't mean suppression. That's what I came to learn. And that's really important for me, because, you know, I am a really emotional person. But it meant to not fire out and be really reacted with a lot of my intense sort of perceived negative emotions, but also not Yeah, just to just to really observe what was going on a lot more, you know, just tame the mind. And, yeah, and so those kinds of systems were really important to learn inside myself to implement. Yeah,
Host 47:46
yes, that sounds like that was a really important time in your life of being at the center and learning that practice and the structure and everything else. And now we get to 2010. And that's where your life really starts to take the shape. It's on now you decided to go to dama girI in India, this is the headquarters of the Glencoe organization and you took a three and a half month intensive poly course there. What was that? What was that experience? Like for you?
Nobuko Nakano 48:13
Um, yeah, it was, it was great, it was really deep. There was actually something else that came to my mind that, you know, I wanted to share with your listeners in terms of like, if people ever choose, you know, people who find the pastor path or the Dharma path, you know, wherever it might be, doesn't have to be at a going concern too. But they realize, you know, that they want to stay in it for some time. And yet, they have these voices of societal expectations of, you know, are they should be doing this or that, you know, I really want to, you know, really encourage and, you know, put forth to them that they're merely just, you know, perceptions and voices, and, you know, you don't have to listen to them. Like, I had a little bit of that, that my mind. But, you know, I realized the longer that I stayed on the path, and I really went with my heart, you know, eight months being their turn to two years, which then turned to, you know, going further on the path by traveling to India and Nepal, Thailand, for the VA partner centers for another few years. It's, you know, it is so true that if people really follow their heart and their intuition, you know, and, you know, if they're worried about their means of like, you know, how can I manifest the financial abundance to do this? It will follow you know, as long as you have real faith inside yourself, and you're just like, and it's coming from a wholesome space, you know, everything will come to support you and I that's what I Did you know I didn't? I didn't work, you know, and I was studying at the time. And so what happens with the Australian Government is that they support you financially when you're studying. So that's how I managed to save money. But also, I think my mum gave me money as well. But you know, I, yeah, I've been. Yeah, went on to, to going, you know, deepen the path. So, yeah, my point is, you know, for, you know, any Dharma practitioners, you know, if they feel like that their call is to stay somewhere, and to go deeper and deeper, to develop themselves, you know, it's, it is definitely something that, you know, everyone if you have that calling to just listen to it and do it. Yeah.
Host 50:53
That's great. Yeah.
Nobuko Nakano 50:55
And, yeah, and to, so to keep on going on with what you were saying about, yeah, that I did end up going to dharma, Gary. So that was 2000. At the end of 2009. Yeah. And done. McGarry is definitely. It's, like the mecca of the partner centers. Yeah, it is, it is the biggest passenger center in the world. And, you know, when you go in there, you know, you got through the town that it san is three hours for Mumbai. So you're traveling on this, you know, ratalie, very old, typical Indian train to get there. And, you know, when you get to dharma gear, you realize it is really, you know, a Dharma Kingdom unto itself, you know, the way that they've designed it, and created a, you know, it's within, you know, it's essentially a massive gated community. And, you know, with its own village, it's got the CAG, Uber kin village with bungalows, blue houses, and it's got this massive path that goes into damage, Gary, and, you know, there's actually, I would say, probably, you know, hundreds of staff that actually lived there, like permanently. Yeah, they work a lot of them work for VRI, the personal research institute, which public is the publication for the Dharma boards, books that come out from the going, gee, you know, organization, and yeah, and so, yeah, 2010 I did the intensive poly course. Which at the time was three and a half months. And yeah, I really wanted to do it because, you know, I had heard definitely by studying Polly that, you know, the the appreciation understanding for the Buddha's teachings, you know, we'll go deeper and you know, I really wanted to understand what was being said in the morning door has the morning chantings that they have on the pasma courses. Yeah, and I just thought, oh, you know, like, why not, you know, I thought this is another way that I can get deeper into the practice. And yeah, I would definitely recommend if people practicing meditation, I really fully feel that every single meditator should study the Pali course you know, for me three and a half months of solid studying like the classes start at nine o'clock and they generally finish I think some of the evening classes finished about seven or eight so they were really long days you know, I was up six o'clock to study because I've I if I didn't do that I would actually be really behind and I Kali for me, it didn't come naturally. Yeah, I've actually heard that. Like, I noticed the two German guys in my course. They just really understood Pali because in Pali, there's there's different case endings and apparently in the German language, they also have this systematic learning of having different case endings on their words. The case endings are like, you know, if they're an object or if they're feminine or masculine, or you know if they're an adjective, or you know, etc, etc. So, yeah, they really, really clicked onto it so easily and um, yeah, Polly is a It's a it's an really amazing language. It's the more that I understood it, the more it felt more like, you know how Tetris you know how the blocks if you if you play it, right, like all the blocks fit in together. And then they click Yeah, that's exactly how Polly was. And if you really understood it's actually very, very systematic. If you understand the thing about the case endings, it's very logical. It's almost like maths. And yeah, I really love it. And yeah, I found it was really intense, though, because, you know, I'm very thankful that it was at Dharma girI. When I did it. That was the second last year that it was a Dharma, Gary, now that dharma Putana, the global pagoda. But being at Dharma guru, that meant that we could actually take these massive long walks around the Sayagyi U BA, Khin village, or go to town in Igatpuri, you know, if we really needed a break, which was pretty often, and you know, just go out for ice cream or Chai. And, yeah, it's like, it's essentially like doing a three and a half month long course with no break. And, you know, we're expected to meditate, the morning set, the 8am. And also the 6pm. The afternoon 230 cet was optional. Actually, I think it was headed to 1pm. And, and then you could set one to two, but that was optional. And often we didn't, because we just needed that afternoon rest. Yeah, and, you know, at the end, we got exams for doing SUTA chanting, so you had to memorize those. We had grammar exam. So we had to know how to translate partly to English, English to part partly, like, on the dark, like, the professors would just, you know, say these sentences, and we just had to translate it on the.we also had to do paper grammar as well. And the exam and yeah, it was really, really hard. But, you know, it was, yeah, it was very, very enriching, you know, and, actually, I can really see, you know, the choices that we make in life, every single choice that we make, really, you know, what I'm doing in this moment, is to fundamentally build upon something in the next moment. It's, it's just so flowing, you know, and because by studying this Pali, understanding the suitors the chance, and I could say how beneficial that was for me, you know, when I went to Burma and I took robes, because in Burma, they, yeah, they, they do the Buddhist studies in Pali and Burmese Pali. Yes.
Host 58:11
So what I just realized in hearing you talk was actually I took a 20 day course at Dharma top avant and the Dhamma Giri compound in January 2010. So I think we might have been there at the same time. So that's, that's, that's kind of neat. I just realized that. But as you're at dawn McGarry longer this idea this inclination towards ordination starts to take hold, and you and the attractions of the worldly life start to slowly melt away. What at that time was one of the main driving forces for your attraction towards considering monasticism?
Nobuko Nakano 58:46
Yeah, well, you know, I had actually made the decision that I wanted to take robes when I was living at Dharma loca. So it was within that two years, probably after the first year of living there. So yeah, by 2009 I had already, you know, felt really quite strongly about ordaining and, you know, that was a big motivator for me. That's why I went into India and you know, wanted to travel further into the passenger path. One of the main motivations for actually traveling was to try to find the most suitable place to take roads. Yeah, so the main motivation was because you know, I, I realized you know, how much I loved meditating like yeah, I I've found in my life that when I really apply myself to something with such commitment and In depth, and I can see the results and the benefits, you know, I just have this even ever growing desire to just do it more and more. And yeah, so when I was a teenager, I used to do long distance swimming, and you know, that game, that was probably my first seed of having that really strong drive, you know, finding something that I felt really, really passionate about, and I could see the benefits in terms of mentally and physically. And then, with a meditation, I could see mentally, how much it was benefiting me. And yeah, and also, the thing about living at The plasma center was that, you know, because they would be these 10 date, courses, turnovers, but every course that I was at, you know, there would be a new batch of people from the outside world, you know, worldly life, people coming in to serve. And, you know, that was fine, I understood, that's part of the whole system and the routine of the partner centers. But, you know, inside myself, I knew I was going much deeper with my practice. And, you know, I saw the reality of like, you know, if I just keep on staying at the passenger centers, this is how it's gonna be, you know, that, you know, I, you know, I was really happy to be, you know, part of helping with managing the center and the office. But I really wanted to go deep with my practice. And I thought, I just don't think having to be exposed to new people every, you know, 10 day course, and going through the system. I just thought, no, I need to just really funnel myself into a space where I can just focus, you know, on a much, much deeper space inside myself, and I thought, how can I do that? I'm going to be able to do that by taking roads, that's there's no other way, you know. And so, yeah, I really started to sort of prepare myself mentally to do it. And I could feel it energetically. I was just, you know, letting go of a lot of worldly things as well. Yeah. If you know, I think I was, I was really aware that when, you know, when I did actually end up taking robes that I was actually going to let go of being relationships, that was a reality for me. And I was really, I knew that's something that I needed to do. And I actually was in a relationship leading up to ordaining but yeah, a couple of months before. I actually sat a 45 days course, at Dharma Sindhu, which is Goodra, West India, with the partner at the time. And, you know, we talked about it and that that was a reality. So, yeah, well, he was actually thinking of becoming a monk as well. And in the park tradition, you know, the park tradition is very big in Burma. And, and I had also thought about, and I thought, you know, oh, wouldn't it be cool if we both ordained and we could still be in the relationship. But the reality was thing, things really changed when we set that 45 days course and I knew it, you know, like, I looked at him and he was still very, you know, involved in the worldly life. We weren't, although we weren't from the same areas in Australia, you know, you know, he had had, you know, thoughts of the relationship becoming very, very serious, and that I would move with him, but then, you know, me coming out of that 45 days course, I just knew that that's not the path that I was gonna take. And yeah, and so. Yeah, it was, it was actually really painful to, to have to let that go and know very emotional. And actually, I think I didn't really probably totally let go of it until until about nine months, even when I was in robes. You know, I had this awakening moment. I was living at the nunnery and I was writing a letter because my thoughts were like, about the nine month mark said I was gonna go get back into the relationship with him. In one of my, my fellow nuns, she was a senior nun. She was a teacher. And although she didn't speak much English at all, she could see what I was doing. I was writing this letter with this wholehearted emotion, like something fully out of a mills and Boon novels, you know, like, I love you, and I'm gonna come back. But then she saw me, she's like, What are you doing? And I said, um, well, you know, I'm thinking of going back in the relationship. Um, and she was like, No, don't do it. And I could just say, her perspective and the space she was coming from, like, you know, she was someone that and a lot of nuns in Burma are like this, where they've actually become novice nuns like, very, very young age, she had become a novice not and when she was 14, or 15. And she was now I think, 24 or 25. And she was already a teacher, you know, so this was her life. And they a lot of these nuns have not known what it's like to be in romantic, you know, intimate relationships. It's completely non notion for them. So, you know, I think although she could understand from a female perspective, she couldn't understand that attachment, that longing Enos, you know, in a romantic relationship, and I could kind of see from her complete matter of fact, you know, Persona and her sort of sternness, and it just must have seemed like, you know, don't don't even go there. That's completely ridiculous. Kind of, like that energy. And it was just so black and white. And I thought, She's absolutely right. She is absolutely right. And I actually never sent that letter. And, you know, he never knew. If they haven't been listening, he might piece it together. But that's all in the past. So yeah, let's we can.
Host 1:07:17
Right, so you ended up in Burma tour Dane in 2014. So now we're at the point where we've we've talked a bit about insight, but we're getting to the Myanmar portion of the Insight Myanmar podcast. And for listeners who don't know, in Burma, they don't actually have bikinis. That is the full female equivalent of a monk rather you ordained in Burmese language as being a CLA So can you explain the distinction and what it actually meant to be UCLA?
Nobuko Nakano 1:07:45
Yeah, yeah. So I first arrived in Burma actually, in 2012. And that was, you know, a year after being already our Nepal and Thailand for a few years. Giving service in those countries. Yeah, and then, yeah, 2012, I went to Burma. And it was fully with the intention. What I'm going to do is, you know, I knew I knew Burma was the place that I was going to ordain. During my travels in India, I had actually gone up to the north India Dharma Sharla, because I knew the Tibetan community were there. You know, the Dalai Lama's, you know, had exiled there. And there were a lot of Tibetan Sangha there, the monks and nuns and I had actually looked at the possibility of ordain or dating in the Tibetan tradition, but I went to Tushita Center, which is a sort of like a monastery slash meditation center, right, right next to domestic Hara in Dharma Sharla. But I go in there, I've found and felt the Tibetan tradition was really, it felt really complicated, like, to me, it felt like it was a lot of philosophy and focusing on the deities and the devas. And yeah, I just didn't quite fit feel clear and simple enough for me. So, you know, and having heard from other the past meditators about Burma, you know, I felt like yeah, that's, that's where I want to go. I feel like that's the right place. And, you know, first and foremost, what the most important thing for me was to find a place that I know that I was going to be supported, you know, that. And to me, support meant that I wasn't alone and that I wasn't isolated. And support meant to me that that I was going to be able to receive the things that I needed being in robes and You know, a really good place to stay a good a really good teacher in terms of a, you know, a monk who was going to teach me what I needed to learn. Yeah. And so all these different aspects of understanding what support meant to me, I really felt like, you know, that's something I feel I'm going to be able to get in Burma. So the first year I was in Burma, I was living at Debbie Toya. It's about it's about an hour outside Yangon, or I don't know, a couple of hours. And it's it's a monastery slash Meditation Center, where the head monk, he used to be have a partner going to teacher, but he no longer was like an affiliated teacher, but he was still teaching the 10 day Vipassana courses and these courses are are all in in Burmese, but essentially, even though they're speaking and Bernie's and Burmese parley, you know, I could understand what was happening, you know, pretty much the partner courses, they all had the same system, three days of other partner, the fourth day, you start learning for pasma technique, days, five to 10. It's all practicing the partner. So, you know, I knew it was this system. So, you know, when the 10 day courses were on which, at this meditation center, it's it's once a month. Yeah. So that's why I live there. Because I really wanted to basically fundamentally, just be in a place where I'm continually practicing the partner. And yeah, I mean, just before that time, I gave three and a half months service at Dharma, Jordi, which is the one of the main the pastor centers in Burma, which is in you know, Yangon. Yeah, and you know, at the time, which was 2000 2000, at the end of 2013. Foreigners could actually live at Damas, ot I'm not sure the situation now. But at the time, you know, foreigners could live there, I've just noticed that quite a lot of centers in Thailand and Myanmar, you know, for Pastner meditators that are listening, is that the situation is that you can't really live at these verpassen centers, ongoingly. It's just their culture. Because, you know, at the southeastern Asian countries, they have paid staff working in the kitchen. And then yeah, it's usually middle aged women that are giving service on these 10 day courses. And so, you know, on day 11, when people leave these middle aged women who are giving service, everyone leaves, there's actually no one staying on. You know, in the western centers, it's very common that people can stay live at the center, that's not a problem. You know, they actually really encourage it. And they want, you know, a Dharma community built around these capacitor centers. But yeah, I did notice at some centers in Thailand, and most of the centers in Burma, you can't really stay there. ongoingly. So we were there three and a half months, there were like four foreigners. My son myself, a Chinese girl, a French girl and an American girl. But at the end of three and a half months, there was an incident that occurred and yeah, we we pretty much got kicked out. And I think after that, I think after that, they didn't allow foreigners to stay on, mainly due to this incident that kicked up. Yeah, and I think that they were quite wary. And since then, I've known friends who have gone to Burma and they're like, Yeah, we didn't get any indication that they welcomed us to stay on. We actually felt like we needed to move on. And I'm like, Yeah, sounds that sounds right. Yeah, so that's just like a heads up for people who, who might be wanting to stay on it for partner centers. It you know, I think it's good to ask. Yeah, at I Know north of Thailand, the Dharma Samantha up towards Chiang Mai, it's possible to stay on at the center. They actually have separate accommodation. You know, I've stayed on there, but yeah, I think a lot of the other centers in Myanmar, you can't really stay on between courses,
Host 1:15:07
right and then eventually you end up ordaining in Yangon hill that's outside of Mandalay and champion, or what is it Tom Cham, ya Randy or Yachty nunnery? This is not a particularly famous place not really known outside the country. There's over 200 nuns there. You mentioned, almost none of them speak English. And you didn't really speak any Burmese at this point. So it seems like this might not have been the most obvious choice. Why was it that you decided to ordain here? What, how did you come to choose this as your landing spot? Yeah,
Nobuko Nakano 1:15:38
so yeah, so after that year of living, there'll be a toy monastery. And after sitting the 45 days course, I've been new, you know, that's when you know, I'm going to take robes. So I'd come back from the 45 days course in India. And I actually spoke to a monk who I had met, I'd actually met him at the Indian embassy, and he was going off to India, he was Burmese monk. But he could speak English really well. And he had some contacts and connections. And I thought, oh, you know, why don't I ask him of some possibilities of place good places to ordain. And the thing is, I was very aware, you know, because, you know, my practice was quite, you know, rooted in going, could you pass in a tradition? And I guess my personal aim was to be able to continue sitting long courses. You know, by then I'd set quite a few 30 days and 45 day courses. And, you know, one of the requirements in the going to do tradition, in order to sit long courses is that you can't practice any other technique. So I framed in my mind, okay, what am I going to do? Okay, I'm gonna go to study Perry Yachty, the Buddha's teachings by studying and learning the power Yachty and going to a party party monastery, so party party is the study. Sorry, the Perry RT is a study in the pond party is a practice. So going to a Perry it monastery, that I could then still keep sitting, going big for Pastner courses. And actually, I felt that was really fitting because I knew it was going to extend, you know, my Polly's studies. And I had really loved studying the sisters, you know, for those who don't know, you know, sisters are really beautiful. They're almost like, really deep stories that the Buddha teaches and essentially, in each of the suitors, there's, there's always like, there's sort of like Aesop's Fables. There's always, you know, a learning lesson in all the suitors. And, you know, that's put it to put it very, very simply, but the suitors, some of them can be very long, the Long Discourses or the short discourses, and I really wanted to study them as well. So to go into a periodic monastery was ideal. So I contacted this monk and I said, Look, I'm really looking to find a periodic monastery with a monk who can speak English. And so he said, Okay, I know, the place it's in Mandalay. So Mandalay is the next step to Yangon. And I'll take you there and yeah, and, you know, Burma is you know, one of those countries where, you know, you don't need to necessarily give for notice, you can honestly just turn up at the doorstep you know, saying this is what you want to do have a talk have a talk to the side or have a talk to the side you the head nine, they will basically they they look at you and they, you know connect you with the telepathy devours gauging on whether you're worth it? And yeah, so basically I went to Mandalay and I think this monk had actually spoken to one of the teachers that he knew at this Nunnery saying, you know, there's a Japanese person who wants to ordain, we're going to come tomorrow. And so, you know, we traveled by bus from Yangon to Mandalay and yeah, basically, you know, when I made that decision, it was completely apart. on, you know, the strength of faith and completely going into the unknown, you know, going with this monk just completely trusting that this path was right for me and ya know, when I went to this nunnery, it's, um, it's in yankin Hill, which is east of Mandalay and it's like the second biggest mountain, everyone who goes to Mandalay will know Mandalay Hill, but it's like the second biggest mountain, that's what I was told next to Mandalay hill. It is it is quite remote. Like, when I climbed one of the mountains in yankin. Hill, and overlooked, you know, all you can see is amazing, you know, idealistic scenes of grain, rice paddies and oxes, and mountains. Small, yeah, and small, small villages. You know, really, really grassroots living of Burmese people and, you know, dirt roads. And, and so, yeah, I was taken to this nunnery and yeah, so, in Burma, this the silos that are there, they are all on eight precepts, you know, the, the bikinis that exist, either in Sri Lanka, and I know that they, in small part in Thailand, that they are or dating, or maybe not, I don't know, actually, in Thailand, whether they are I knew of a Thai woman who wanted to become a bikini. But also in Taiwan. Before Bhikkhuni ordination, it's a very, very sort of deep, I think it requires a lot of, you know, complex regiments, a certain amount of head monks, I think it's five, recognize head monks, in order for the ordination process to happen. And the forbidden is follow 311 precepts. And yeah, the silos are equivalent, similar to the main cheese in Thailand. But actually, even though the main cheese in Thailand also follow eight I actually think the main cheese in Thailand or they're actually living a lot more of a relaxed lifestyle, like I met quite a few made cheese on my journey back to Australia, who drove cars, you know, and, and in Burma, the silos, they would never do that, you know, like, I think most of them wouldn't even have a car license. So, yeah, the but you know, I felt like and it is true, I have actually heard monks say that even if you live five precepts or even if you eat live with eight precepts, that is strict enough to really get your mind your life disciplined to the point where you may actually you know, in this life, if you have the fruits to reach the sort of the point of the first stage of stream into, you know, the four stages of enlightenment. So, you know, you know, I felt, you know, satisfied and happy to be OSI layer two other taking that eight precepts and yeah, you know, taking that, that experience of, you know, traveling to Mandalay, knowing I was going to ordain going through the whole formalities of have to recite formalities in, in Burmese and Pali just before, you know, I get my head shaved, you know, I could feel how Yeah, you know, my, my energy was changing. And yeah, it was, it was really quite intense. And I felt very emotional. I was actually crying as the, you know, I was I was I was getting my head shaved and, you know, immediately, you know, I had the support of all these Burmese nuns who, you know, they were immediately you know, take me under their wing, and although none of them really spoke any English, you know, they assured me and they took me as soon as I had my head shaved to the outdoor wash area. Yeah, in Burma, they have these outdoor wash areas which they have these massive cement off, which then you have to use like a plastic bucket or a plastic cup to wash yourself. There's no, there's very rare situations of having indoor showers at nunneries and monasteries. You know, unless you're a head monk, you can have those luxuries, but most of the wash places are outdoors and the water is because it's like running from a, you know, PVC pipe. It's absolutely freezing. And, yeah, so, you know, going through the whole process of getting washed down having my head shaved, you know, and they immediately present you with the, the, the thigh lay rooms. And so I was changed into them. And you know, because I only wore western clothes, I didn't actually know how to put on alongI and, and everything just felt really very foreign to me, like you have to wear quite a few layers like an under blouse. And on top of that, you have to wear an outer robe. And on top of that you have to wear another robe which covers you like it's like a cave. Yeah, and everything felt Yeah, very, very different. And foreign. But you know, through time, I understood how to wear everything properly and my outer robe as well so that it didn't just flop off. And yeah, yeah, it was definitely. I would definitely say for me, it was one of the most pivotal, Pivotal and life changing experiences
Host 1:26:42
in my life. Like what was it like being a c'est la vie, Burmese nun living the full life at a Burmese nunnery?
Nobuko Nakano 1:26:52
Yeah, well, um, you know, the fact that I chose to live in a Peri arte nunnery, it, it would have been very different from like a lot of foreigners in Burma when they decided to take roads, they ended up going to the party party to practice monasteries, where they actually practice meditation. Like the pop up tradition, or the Mahasi tradition, you know, they're all practice monasteries, where you know you will sit and meditate for most of the time, but being in the peri arty nunnery, it you know, also because I was actually studying at a nearby monastery with senior monk at Uyen monastery, which was a it was a little walk around mountain about 1015 minute walk from the nunnery. And yeah, the head monks there, Sayadaw exotica, he was the head monk of a Peri Yachty monastery with 500 monks underneath him. So that was a very well, you know, very renowned, sort of very recognized, very supported monastery. And so, you know, I was really, really fortunate to actually study with him. And because the saya G, the head nun who I lived with, you know, she recognized, you know, that I was a foreigner. You know, I was the only foreigner living in that nun, nunnery. I think I was the first and only foreigner who had ever been there. That she, she, she, you know, totally understood, she was so open and flexible. She's basically just let me have my life having a routine that suited me. And I didn't have to study with the nuns at the nunnery, you know, basically, they studied the Abbe Dharma, they studied the Tipitaka, which is the three they're the very three high, you know, Buddhist doctrine texts in the Tera Vaada tradition. And it was a very, very deeply rooted, you know, study nunnery. And they have a very strict routine of, you know, we got up at five o'clock, like, I got up with them, we had breakfast. So I would, because I was like the foreign and non and, you know, they, they wanted to give me special treatment that I sat at the same table as SEO to the headline, and her mother, Olivia, who was, I think, older than eight years old. And yeah, so you know, being at the table with the head and on we got the beds, best food, which was like, you know, eight to 10 different dishes of cooked food. whereas all the other silos who sat in groups tables, you know, on average, I think they got maybe three or four different dishes. So, you know, the staple diet is rice, predominantly white rice, and then they'd have like, a cooked vegetable dish and perhaps like either a fish or meat dish. Yeah, and actually, it's a it's a misnomer. People think that everyone in Buddhism is actually vegetarian, but actually in, in Burma. Often, the monasteries and nunneries aren't vegetarian. Unless you're in the park tradition, I know that the park have quite strict and that they do follow a vegetarian diet. But yeah, that's something to be aware of that. Yeah, not a reason monasteries, they do still eat meat. And there was quite a lot of pork, I remember. Yeah. And so you know, we'd have breakfast five, it'll finish by six. The nuns then started their morning lessons. And they're basically they, they basically studied all day that have, we'd have a lunch break, at 11 o'clock. And between 11 and 12, with lunch, you know, with the Vinaya, the monastic code of conduct that all monks and nuns are supposed to finish eating by 12 noon, and then there's no eating after 12 Noon. But then they basically had their lunch break, I think till about one 130. And then they kept studying, you know, so they'd go to different classes. It's, it's not that different from, say, a Western School where you'd go from this room to the next for a different subject, that's what would happen, I noticed that if there was different subjects that often go to a different part of the nunnery for a class. And for me, my classes, you know, I'd take the walk to the monastery, and I'd go for my class with saya door was or ticker and have my OB Dhamma class from about eight to 930. And yeah, and so that was pretty much every morning. And on some days, I would actually undertake, like teaching some of the novice monks. So out of the 500 amongst those who wanted to study English. Yeah, like I said to side or Yeah, you know, I'm really open to, you know, teaching English, you know, you know, I didn't have an actual teaching, you know, education, but I was really happy to teach what I knew. And you know, whether it was grammar or you know, reading, writing. And so, yes, on some, I think it was mainly weekends from memory, that I would then teach some novice monks, some English and so yeah, we would organize textbooks, and they would buy their notebooks. And yeah, and I got to teach them, which was, for me, my memories are at Uyen teaching these novice monks and novice monks, they start from 18 Onward. And oh, no, actually, though, they would start even younger at this monastery, they actually started from six years old. But the time that they actually took, the more difficult education was probably about 1718 onwards. So the novice monks that I taught were about 17 1819 years old. And yeah, they were they were so sweet. They were just the most sweetest hearted young men and there was so polite, and there was so curious, and they just really wanted to learn, you know, they, they had so much respect and yeah, I, in that respect, I never felt that treatment of that, you know, that females in the audain life the silos are lower than the monks I never had that experience. Although in a things that I observed, like in a cultural sense in Burma and also in Thailand, that Those who are female are well, let's say the monks, the monks are given first and foremost respect, then and then and then come the females for sure. That's just something that I noticed in tradition and in the cultural sense. You know, whether whether it be like where they sat, in terms of like ceremonies and things that they if they received Donna, the gifts that are offered by laypeople, you know, the sailors, the females would always come serve second, the, the monks would always come first in terms of what what they received, and also where they're seated in a, in a hall. The monks are always at the front, the silos, often to the center, or the back of the home. And yeah, and I even noticed the interaction at the nunnery because most of the nuns who were ordained there, it was quite a young nunnery. Like they started from six years old, being noticed nuns, and then they went up to I think the oldest one was made 26 years old. So everyone was sort of in between, you know, it was everyone was quite young. But I noticed even the silos that I was with, they really respected and revered. The Yeah, the monks that came in even the younger monks who would have been their age peers from a monastery because they would often come to for ceremonies and things so kinda like a sister and brother monastery.
So that would come in and yeah, it was almost like I would watch the, the nuns and they will without almost like giggling, teenage girls coming in and watching and sort of like having this complete adoration, like adoring the monks that would come in. And yeah, at times, I really felt like, wow, this is no different from the girls school that I went to, you know, in high school. Yeah, yeah. But definitely, um, yeah, I just noticed energetically that, that silos would would often just put monks above them, and even the respect for monks just that little bit above them, you know?
Host 1:37:31
Yeah. When you were reflecting about your time in robes. You wrote a bit about that to me before our interview and like to read one of the things he said, because it's quite evocative. So you wrote, quote, I met some really wonderful and sometimes incredible people and learned quite some things about Myanmar and ordain life. Living in the nunnery, I felt the deeply intimate, unconditional love and caring of the CLA sisters at Chen, Yan nunnery. And I experienced at times was even closer than my blood sisters, than what I've experienced throughout my life. And it gave me a deep experience of what true sisterhood can be like, and quote. So I think many meditators in the West are quite curious about how monastic life might differ from the life of a lay meditator. And this particular passage is quite evocative in helping to paint that picture of the contrast in the differences. How else would you characterize those differences in your life being a lay meditator being a nun? You describe the daily life of a nun a bit earlier, but I'm wondering really about the contrast of what it was like wearing robes and how that was different from just being a lay meditator on the path.
Nobuko Nakano 1:38:44
Yeah, I really feel probably the fundamental very clear difference. Being in robes is there is an unspoken but yet so deeply felt sense of why we're in robes. And it's such you know, with a deep honor and reverence and respect for the Buddha's teachings. And underlying Lee, I, I felt everyone that I had met who was in robes was really there because we understood such with such clarity, you know, what the depths of dukkha were, you know, the depths of suffering and why we're in robes is to really, you know, our, the fundamental objective was towards enlightenment You know, towards you know, it's, it's, I think it's a bit I don't know, it's, it's how can I put it, it's like, I think it's a bit too far forward to say arts to reach nibbana. But for me, you know, the, the real sort of felt sense was like a really deep appreciation that honoring it was such an enriching, spacious experience. It's such, it's not even actually comparable to the worldly life really, because, you know, the world and life is so, you know, it's just so caught up with, you know, so many things in the mind, you know, you know, your plans, your worries, you know, the mundane things, you know, you know, what do I need to go shopping for, you know, all those things, but being in robes because, you know, I was letting go have those kind of responsibilities, you know, it was just a full on just, you know, no holds barred, you know, like, just like a, it was pretty much you're on this train of living life with just so much more clarity. And for me. Yeah, my life was sometimes quite intense, because, you know, when the mind is developing so much more clarity, and yet when you have triggers that hit the mental space, and that can really trigger sensations, they can feel really intense, like probably tenfold intense, because you know, I'm feeling so much more clear as well but because you know, emotions are emotions that come up and triggers are also triggered. So yeah, it's, it's a, it's almost something that's unexplainable. But also something that I can really fundamentally appreciate is how much loving kindness how much matter almost every single you know, person that I met who was ordained in robes and how much compassion they really hold for themselves and you know, for for me when they were interacting with me you know, I think in the in the worldly life, you know, worldly people you know, because they're carrying so much in their mind in their heart they end up creating a lot of control dramas, they they work from a space of you know, like, needing to play games a lot you know, it's sort of like because it's a space of like, you know, the ego fundamentally trying to survive or the ego fundamentally trying to feel like it's right and yeah, in the ordained life I just I really felt none of that you know, not one probably not not near nearly nowhere near as much you know, that that people were really coming from a space of will trying to come a speck from a space of purity and you know, what is high goodness and yeah, just really coming from you know, so much more of a higher mental vibration and hence mental space. Yeah, and, and the thing that I loved about connecting to the monks at the way in where I studied, I was actually probably there a lot more spending my time then actually the nunnery because the monastery it had it was just so well set up that some they actually had a media room which, you know, it had the, in Mima the cable it's like sky, I think from what I remember, I can't remember it they had they have the fundamental you know, like well known cable service and they had that as well as the internet as well as you know, very well set up computers and so it you know, I could send emails, I could still contact the outside world if I wanted to, you know, although the desire wasn't there to but because of that, you know, because of media room, I was at the monastery a lot more. And also, I did spend quite a lot of my time actually getting to talk I converse and get to know some of the senior monks who were teachers in the monastery, and you just spend some time one on one time with them and, and talk, it wasn't like one on one in room just enclosed just with us because part of the Vinaya is that a monk can never be alone with a nun. But, you know, they would be like other novices running around or something. But, you know, sitting down, you know, having tea. Yeah, and really exchanging with them. You know, understanding, you know, where there had come from in Burma and, and a lot of monks, you know, they often they come from very poor villages or, you know, have very, very grassroots backgrounds, and they decide that they, you know, want to commit their lives. You know, it actually takes a specific type of mind to actually want to study Perry it, the Buddha's teachings, it's, you know, just like it's, it takes another type of personality or mind to want to go into a practice of potty potty monastery, like, it's just personal inclination. But, you know, what I did find with the periodicity studying monks and nuns, you know, it's just like this, the level that this they study at the Abbey Dhamma. And like, it's actually beyond the Abbe Dhamma teachings, the Tipitaka it's just, it's so deep that, you know, even even us as Westerners, we couldn't really comprehend it. Unless, unless you're like, you know, one of the senior monks, the Western monks, like Bhikkhu Bodhi who, who have studied on that level. But, yeah, it's just the mind can't comprehend, like, how deep that kind of teaching is. So yeah, so I want actually did want to mention something else I noticed living at the monastery, something that I think it is cultural. Is that although in the Vinaya, that you're not supposed to eat after 12 noon, with, you know, the monks and nuns, you know, in Burma, you would know that they have lipids, you know, the fermented tea leaves. Yeah, and, to me, it looked like love pet looked like food, you know, it's it. If foreigners saw that sort of look, look at the dish of Lapeyre and see green, green marinated leaves. Sometimes they mix with chili, sometimes they mix with garlic, and it does give like quite a fragrant, you know, smell like garlic. And it def definitely looks like food, but to the Burmese it's like fermented tea pickles. And so actually, the monks could eat that. And at at five o'clock with their tea, and when I first saw that I was a little bit like a Ghast I was surprised I was like you guys are eating isn't this against the Vinaya and, and they they because I went into a small monastery they call the buildings monasteries in in Burma. I went into a small monastery and there were probably five, five teacher monks from a yen sitting there. They're all having a joyful, very jovial time drinking tea, having loved it. And I was really shocked. And I said, Isn't this eating and then they explained to me No, it's, it's okay. You know, we're allowed to eat la pet. It's not breaking the Vinaya Yeah, I mean, you know, that's a cultural thing, you know, and also I did notice that in Burma, they they do have I don't know if you ever came across the avocado shakes. Did Yeah. I thought that they were delicious. But you know that this thing?
Host 1:49:34
This thing. I like my avocado and guacamole.
Nobuko Nakano 1:49:41
I was actually shown these avocado shakes by a park, non Indian gone. We were traveling to a park monastery down south. And she we stop at a small village and she whips up this avocado shake from a small cafe. And I said what is that and she goes was, oh, it's avocado shake, we can have it. And I said, Wait, but it's a solid. And she's like, No, it has. It has avocado that's been blended, it's got ice, it's got a little bit of sugar. And I actually think that it had milk. And in the strict Vinaya, like in the toric, five Thai Forest Tradition that you can't have milk, you know, at five because it's considered a food. But you know, there are things in the Burmese tradition, the Sangha tradition, you probably would have noticed that actually is flaunting the Vinaya traditions like, it's not really that strict. You know, and the Thai Forest, you know, traditionally I don't cha is, is definitely a lot more following the Vinaya much more strictly. So that's, that was definitely an eye opener to realize, when I was in robes that the Burmese monks, a lot of them don't necessarily follow the Vinaya. to the full extent,
Host 1:51:07
right, and this is, this is kind of getting to the beginning of the end of your time in robes. You had ordained with the volition to want to stay in robes as long as possible the perhaps even for life. But as happens with many of us conditions, change and it might be painful to say, but I as you as you were going deeper into Myanmar, and this issue with the video was one of them. It sounds like it was kind of like falling out of a love affair with Buddhist Burma with that, would it be fair to characterize it like that?
Nobuko Nakano 1:51:39
Yeah. Um, yeah, these were definitely elements, I mean, this the things that I noticed with the, you know, difference in gender like with the silos and monks, it wasn't such an obvious thing for me. And, you know, I really just decided to flow and accept and, you know, grow on, you know, the, you know, the great fortune that I could be asylee in a country and not look at it as, like, a comparison or this. I don't like being treated like this. This is less I didn't look at it that way. But I mean, there were some aspects of it that I just didn't notice, like, you know, in the pagodas in Burma, you know, you know, the big Shwedagon, that's right, should have gone to go to, you know, the upper levels. Shwedagon where the males can walk, you know, but the females can walk. And, you know, it said the upper levels, they're actually getting closer to the border relics. So the vibrations are much stronger. And you know, the only the females and the salaries can only stay on the ground level, and they couldn't access access the upper levels. And also, I noticed when I went down south to, to mon state demonstate isn't Monetate down there. Yeah, that's yeah, I also went to another quite large pagoda, the one there's one on an island or next to an island, the Yeah, you're also it was the same thing, you couldn't go on the upper levels, and, you know, those kinds of things I did notice and I had a talk with my side or who was really open minded, and, you know, he was completely very pro equal treatment and very respectful. And, and I said, Do you think that this kind of belief that it's actually stemmed from ancient Hindu beliefs, you know, knowing that Buddhism had traveled from India and into, into Myanmar. And, you know, the ancient Hindus had, you know, believed that, you know, that, you know, the women were, you know, lower than the men and that, you know, during their, the moon cycle, the menstruation that they will also consider dirty, you know, all those kind of beliefs. You know, I asked her, is it stem from that? And he, he didn't really know, and yeah, I do feel that it was connected to that. Um, yeah, and I think the other things that I think I did notice, um, was like, I had a very good, you know, a monk brother, Dutch monk. I mean, you know, him Bhikkhu Agha and you know, he was very Yeah,
Host 1:54:44
right. That's one of the I was just gonna say one of the real intersections of our life one of our very great mutual friend to both of ours and I think you We skipped over your time at W toy monastery, which is also I'm not sure if he was the one What brought you there? But you were you also spent some some time there before going into that as well.
Nobuko Nakano 1:55:04
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So that was there for a year before I ordained. But, you know, talking to Bhikkhu alga, and you know, I had so much respect for him and I felt like he really took me under his wing when I when I was in robes. I met him soon after I had ordained. And I traveled back to Yangon. I was at a monastery and near Shwedagon, and, and he turned up and he was saying, Oh, yes, you know, I'd heard about you because we both had come from the Vipassana tradition. And, and then in time, I realized he was a really very good example of a monk who really wanted to practice really uprightly as close to the Vinaya as possible. And, you know, he, he also, you know, allowed me to travel with him to quite a few places, and to different monasteries, we went down south, and we also went to another monastery outside Yangon in a small village where he was really received. And, you know, I think just through things that he also told me around Vinaya, and I think how the monastic tradition was existing in Burma, it I just, I think these kinds of things really influenced things that I was seeing and noticing. And that just, you know, they do say that, at the moment, the fastener the border fastener is, in a honest reality, it is in decline, you know, at the end of 500 years, that, you know, the Buddha's teaching, you know, may actually end up dissolving, but yeah, I kind of noticed all these things in Burma that some monks were doing, and I saw monks that were really, really drunk, you know, a nice way to garden. And, you know, of course, they're not meant to be drinking, and just some things about behave that. Yeah, that did definitely start turning my mind. And I did feel some level of disillusion. And yeah, what was the other thing that you mentioned that? The third thing? Well,
Host 1:57:39
I was actually just right, I was actually just quoting something that you told me before the interview of the different categories of this disillusionment. You had mentioned to me that the vignette was one thing that treatment of not monks and nuns were the other and then a really big one was what started happening with.
Nobuko Nakano 1:57:57
Oh, that's right. With the Yeah, that's right. So that was like I was, yeah, in in a monastery 2015. And that's when I started to notice. Because at Jamia Donte, nunnery, they, you know, and also the monastery, the Buddhist Sangha in Burma, they have these newsletter publications, they look like newspapers, but they're very well printed, you know, they're very well put together. And I think there were maybe two or three different versions of these newspapers and, you know, that have stories in them and, and I realized, like, how much the nuns read them. And out of curiosity, I, I sat down with one of the head nuns, and I took one of these papers, and I said, are, you know, pointed out articles and I said, Oh, what's this one about? And, you know, what's this one about? And, you know, she then explained to me, that the, the perception that was being held in, you know, the Sangha, the Buddhist Sangha, and also I think, generally in Burmese, was a very negative kind of fearful. And also, in some of these articles, it was demonizing Muslim people, you know, pointing out incidences that have happened, perhaps up north of Burma, where a small village monastery was put on fire, and they think the culprits may have been Muslim people. And, you know, I think this was completely all in flow. You know, after 911, and happens, you know, as a whole complaint prejudice, you know, the misnomer of that Muslims are out to proliferate and take over the world. That's actually the attitude, the feeling that I got that these nuns actually thought that the Muslims were going to do. They really had this perception that, you know, almost people were bad and that the one of the stories was that a Burmese girl in Mandalay, she had been raped by a Muslim man, and they were just like, you know, their immediate judgments was that they're going to get the heads cut off by Muslim people, so they have to stay clear of them. And I was, I was stumped. I was like, taken aback because, you know, this was such. Yes, such a completely beyond me, kind of like I had not perceived Burmese people have this kind of narrow minded prejudice view of Muslims. I had kind of known, you know, through general media, even, just I didn't watch Burmese news, but I kind of could feel the general sentiment was slightly anti Muslim. But to actually hear the stories coming out of these Sangha publications, these newspapers, very blatantly, and obviously, completely demonizing Muslims. I was absolutely shocked. And I was actually it actually created fear inside me, you know, I was like, you know, this, how can it be like I'm, I'm, I'm supposed to be within a group of people. You know, the Buddha had, you know, taught compassion to all beings, that all beings are equal. And yet they uphold this perspective, how can this be, you know?
Host 2:02:15
Right. And I think that's, that's really something that's been central to so many meditators around the world that, given the media attention, you know, one of the most common questions you get, by having been a meditator who's lived in Myanmar for so long, is how can this Dhamma country where the teachings of the Buddha are practice so sincerely? How can it also have and it's kind of fill in the blank, you know, when this was asked 10 years ago? The question was, how can it have the kind of military government that it has and the kind of cruelty you see there? And now the question starts the same way, but it finishes a different way. And it finishes, how can a country where the Buddhist teachings are so prevalent and people practice in such a dominant way? How can it be engaging in these kinds of behaviors and attitudes? And this is a common question. It's a really difficult question, as someone who's dedicated to meditation practice, and also has spent a lot of time living in the country among members of the Sangha. So it's certainly not an easy question to ask or to think of answering, but how did you come to understand this yourself? How did you work out this, this contradiction? Um,
Nobuko Nakano 2:03:21
yeah, well, you know, I, after I came back to Australia, so I came back at the beginning of 2016. And then following that, that's when the mass, you know, flee of Rohingya people. The refugees, they fled to Bangladesh that happened that year. And so, you know, following what I had learned, at Tommy Adan to nunnery and being in robes. And, and that was like, the first seed of like, well, Burmese people might have this, you know, perception. And then when I heard about the Rohingya crisis, I was like, wow, you know, I'm actually not surprised that that happened. And, yeah, I, you know, I guess I really understood and balanced it in my mind is like, you know, the Burmese people are simply human, you know, they're just like any other country, although the Dharma is very strong, you know, in at the grassroots level, but also, you know, I've spoken to monks, you know, here in Melbourne as well, Buddhist monks, and, you know, the bottom line is, you know, where there is dharma, there is also anti Dharma, you know, it's the two sides of the same coin. You know, where there are huge means that there is always going to be, you know, the ignorance, hatred, anger, you know, there all of our mental states that exist. And so, you know, it can't We can't just look at it as like that Burmese because yes, fundamentally it is a Dharma Dharma country. We can't rule that as an absolute complete blanket, you know, portrayal of them. And that's how they are, you know that they are human. And that, you know, things like greed, corruption, anger, they will all also exist, you know, where there is dharma, they can also be anti dharma as well. It's just, yeah, I think that's just the reality of, you know, the human. The human conditioning that. Yeah, that's just how it is. And, you know, ideally, although we would love, you know, the Burmese government, you know, the politics Aung San su chi to completely recognize their wrongdoings, and to completely ladle the rocking of people back in. They're really just humans with their own perceptions as well. Of what's right and wrong.
Host 2:06:21
Right. So then, for you, these three factors are coming together. And slowly this kind of disillusionment and of when he first came to me and Mark to take on the robes and to be a nun starts to kind of weigh on you more and more heavily. And eventually, you just wrote, um,
Nobuko Nakano 2:06:43
yeah, yeah. I mean, it wasn't really feeling, you know, so disillusioned, that that's what led to me disrobing. It was actually in 2016, the beginning after I started another 45 days course, in Thailand at Dharma Comala. And I came back to Australia because I needed to renew my PR, permanent residency visa. And yeah, and upon returning, I was still in robes. A few weeks later, after I came back, I saw my mother and I had a discussion with her sat down, and she was really honest with me, and she told me her sentiments that she wanted me to stop being a nun. And, you know, I knew in my heart that my father also wanted me to stop. Although he and told me directly, you know, you know, coming from a Japanese culture, women don't become nuns. It's very, very rare, you know, men can become Buddhist, Japanese priests. But you know, even in the Japanese tradition, a lot of Japanese priests, because it's in the Mahayana tradition, they can get married, they can have children, they can actually live in a household but still be able this priest. So, yeah, the, the idea of being in in robes is a very different understanding for my parents, you know, from my mom's point of view, was like, you know, you're completely missing out on opportunities, you know, like, like, you know, you know, my mom's mantra is, you know, to have a husband to have a house, to have a family, that's what's really going to have make you happy. So, you know, that she was coming from that perspective. And I knew that, you know, that's what she wanted. And, I mean, it also gave me some time to think that, you know, I hadn't, from the time that I first live, it lived up for Passman centers, to the time that I, you know, wasn't roads and return to that had been nine years. So I hadn't lived in the world for nine years, you know, and so yeah, you know, I really gave it some thought and I thought, Look, you know, how about, I really, really, you know, give it a shot, I really try to live my life, being back in the world, you know, try to be you know, a really, you know, good, wholesome, you know, as much as I can dharmic person in the lay life. You know, they are contributing members of society. And, um, how's
Host 2:09:50
that? What's it been like to transition back from being a member of the Sangha to being just an ordinary layperson again, Oh,
Nobuko Nakano 2:10:01
yeah, it's been it's been really good most of the time, um, ah, a little bit of the time it was difficult. Um, especially soon after I disrobed, I went into a relationship that was actually straightaway after I disrobed, and that was really challenging. So you know, what I, what I understood is that the partner that I was with at that time, you know, he wasn't a meditator, and he didn't understand dharma. And I realized so fundamentally and very clearly now that it is really important to me to be around and surround myself with people who are choosing a path that is leading to wisdom. And also, you know, have very similar values, like an ethics that's really important and true. And I think, you what I really noticed, you know, coming back in the world is, I don't know, perhaps with so much online interaction, you know, online dating, I realized how much that had blown up that lately foreign concept to me, Oh, I had never gone there. And I swore to myself that I never would. But, yeah, I realized that I don't know people's, I don't know, deeper sense of what is moral, what is ethical? For me? Um, yeah, I guess my, my, how I hold my ethics, and my morals is really, really deep. And I just feel that I don't know, people's minds can be so superficial. And that's definitely what I, you know, why that relationship didn't work. It was very much around values. And, you know, what I felt were ethical and moral ways of behaving. So, um, yeah, but, you know, I'm glad I had that experience. Because, um, I now know, you know, what I do want in relationships? And, um, yeah, and so, in that sense, although that was challenging. Other aspects of coming back has been, you know, actually really pretty smooth. You know, life in Australia is, you know, it's very systematic. It's very, very well organized. It's, you know? Yeah, I feel like the government is always very, very supportive. Like, when I came back, you know, I, a bit different than Burma and very much so. Yeah, absolutely. Totally. And, you know, like, even during the COVID. Lockdown time, is from march onward, last year, 2020. I think 3 million plus Australians lost their jobs, but the Australian Government was, you know, on to it. They were supporting the Australian for the loss of jobs with like, financial supplement. And yeah, you know, in that way that kind of, yeah, government support was amazing. Like, I didn't have a job when I came back. So I needed to get on to the government supplement support, which was just really effortless, and it was really great. And then I ended up taking on a 500 hour yoga teacher training, diploma, so I studied that for a year. And, you know, again, so now I teach classes and, you know, teach more like Hatha slower based yoga, like a lot more deeper, mindful. Yoga and yoga. And yeah, and I also, um, you know, I just really surround myself with people who, yeah, a lot of them. Friends who I've known for more than 10 years, a lot in the past meditators. And yeah, so, you know, people around me who were very supportive and we have similar values and, you know, follow a path of, you know, always trying to do you know, what's wholesome and also, you know, have the intelligence to communicate. You know, if we've done any mistakes, you know, come forth and You know, bridge that communication and always connect with love? Yeah, and, you know, I can? Yeah, I think the really great thing about coming back is that I can have that consistent connection with my family. And especially my mom. Yeah, yeah. So that's really important for me to have that, you know, constant connection with my mother, you know, she's getting a little bit older now. She's 74 this year. So. Yeah, and, you know, to let her know that I'm always here. And, um, yeah, so in the general sense, I feel like, you know, life has been really pretty great. Coming back in the world.
Host 2:15:55
Yeah. And I, it's been quite a journey you bet on you know, it's been it's been a really interesting conversation you've talked about, talked about coming, adjusting from Japan to Australia, and then going on your educational career, the party and and psychedelics, the passion of meditation and Glinka tradition that led to India and the nun hood in Burma. And the whole experience of being a Burmese sailor and then back living the life of where it all started as if you'd never left in the first place. But of course you have and you're settled back in this, this familiar environment. It's kind of like that, that that quote from classic literature, you know, to know your home is to, I'm probably going to butcher it now. But you know, to know your home is to, to leave and travel and have these experiences and then come back and be right where you started from. And that's where you're at now, but it you know, I think it'll be really interesting to see the trajectory you've been on now and what will come next, you know, what, what curve will come around the next corner. So, you know, just really want to thank you so much for taking the time to share this today. And I think it's been really beneficial for a lot of meditators to hear about such a unique spiritual journey that you've been on.
Nobuko Nakano 2:17:09
You're welcome. It's been my pleasure. Thanks, Joah.
Host 2:17:20
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