Transcript: Episode #192: No Country for Democracy
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Host 1:23
Welcome to the Insight Myanmar podcast. Before we get into today's show, I wanted to let you know that we have a lot more written and video content on our website. If you haven't visited it yet, we invite you to take a look at WWW dot insight myanmar.org In addition to complete information about all of our past episodes, there's also a variety of blogs, books and videos to check out and you can also sign up for our regular newsletter. But for now enjoy what follows and remember sharing is caring.
Kasit Piromya 3:01
Thank you. Greetings Bodycraft from Bangkok. My name is Kasit Piromya. I was for 37 years a carrier diplomat attached to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I was ambassador to many countries. After retirement from the civil service. I became a politician, a member of parliament. And before that, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Thailand about 10 years ago, at the moment, I am a full fledge ordinary citizen of Thailand, doing many works within the context of the civil society organization pertaining to the promote to the question of the promotion of democracy and human rights in the Southeast Asia region, or within the context of the ASEAN community. Thank you.
Host 3:56
I mean, that's a very illustrious resume. To be sure. And again, we really appreciate you sharing your thoughts. So let's immediately jump into the Thai context which you would be the most familiar with. I think a lot of people who are following the Myanmar conflict are somewhat frustrated to see as we have seen since the coup, that the Thai political establishment does not seem to be particularly interested in supporting a transition to a democracy in Myanmar. And there seems to be very close relationships with the Myanmar military, the Myanmar junta from the Thai side. Can you tell us a little bit about why this this situation has evolved and whether we can expect any support for a democratic transition from the Thai political establishment?
Kasit Piromya 4:51
I think what you have just briefly said is very true. I am in full agreement and the reasons behind this position One of the, the Thai government for the past nine years under the leadership of General Prayut chan o Cha, you know, they have taken the position of trying to maintain a cordial, both personal as well as the military to military and government to government with the military junta of Myanmar, who stage the coup d'etat two years ago, that in that the parliamentary democratic system of Myanmar, the reason why they asked quite accommodative and friendly to the military junta, I think, has very much to do with the background of the Thai Prime Minister, Mr. General Prayut chan o Cha, the fact that nine years ago, he staged the coup d'etat and the democratic government of Thailand and held the position of the Prime Minister of Thailand as also the head of the military junta of Thailand. And after five years, Thailand did have a new constitution. And the Constitution was semi democratic and semi democracy democratic. And that constitution did give the I think, the legal framework for General Prayut chan O Shah, to become the Thai Prime Minister in an elected House of Representatives. So there was a continuation of the premiership of General Prayut chan o Cha, first as a KoolAid leader, and second, as a sort of elected Prime Minister of Thailand. So for the past nine years, Thailand did have a prime minister, who came from the military background, and the Thai military establishment all along, has been having a very close, friendly and cooperative relationship with the Myanmar military counterpart throughout the years for many decades. And there was also this personal relationship of man to man or military to military or generals to generals. That explained the reason why, during the past two years after the coup d'etat in Myanmar, the Thai government and former generals has been, I think, accommodative to the Myanmar military establishment, ignoring more or less the five point consensus agreed by all the ASEAN leaders to get with the military leader of Myanmar general senior gentlemen online. So the concern from the position of the Thai government for the past nine years, under the leadership of General Prayut chan o Cha, is to maintain the relationship and cordiality and cooperative relationship with the Myanmar military counterpart, ignoring altogether the aspiration and struggle for the return of democracy by the Myanmar people in general or the democratic opposition to the military government in Naypyidaw, the capital city of Myanmar.
Host 8:39
And you said that prime channel transition from a military junta to an elected position? The correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding was that there were a lot of concerns about the legitimacy of the election that put channel child into that, that Prime Ministership, that sort of legitimate, we can say civilian government's position. Is there a degree to which I'm speculating, is there a degree to which there is fear and has been filled by the time establishment, that genuine democracy in bordering countries could undermine the continuation of the status quo?
Kasit Piromya 9:22
I start exactly I don't think so. As I have mentioned, the present constitution of Thailand allows for the military involvement in politics and the continuation of the military establishment of Thailand, in in politics from the military, government, or the military regime, into a sort of a semi military and semi democratic regime. The constitution has stipulated that you The four the four, it gives us sort of an framework, the spirit, the letters for the continuation of General Prayut. Chan o Cha, from Prime Minister inside a military context into the prime ministership inside the semi democratic context of Thailand until I think two days ago, because now we have a new government, and General Prayut. Chan o Cha is no longer the Prime Minister of Thailand. But the Thai society in general is still calling for democratic entity for the Kingdom of Thailand. This is work that the Thai society as a whole will have to continue to work. So what happens in Thailand indicates the Thai foreign policy posture and foreign policy activities. I don't think that the what happening in what has been happening in Burma, or Myanmar, has very much directly to do what with what we scope going on in Thailand. It is what we are, determines our foreign policy direction still, but Myanmar, and crisis in Myanmar.
Host 11:19
It's very interesting to hear, although, as you note, there is now very recently, a new Thai Government and I think many of our viewers have been following the developments since the Thai election quite, quite closely. It's been a very, very tense situation, a very suspenseful situation. Do you feel that with this transition to a new government that the Thai foreign policy is likely to change?
Kasit Piromya 11:50
I am not hopeful, not optimistic. Because the party, the political party that joined the coalition, one of the parties that joined the coalition of the new Thai Government is the party that has the backing of the former Prime Minister General Prayut chan o Cha. So in a sense, that is a continuity of the military establishment and the military personalities in the name of General Prayut. Chan o Cha, in the new government. So within this coalition government, with half of the coalition government represent I think, the interests of the military establishment, I don't foresee any fundamental changes as to the fundamental policy direction of Thailand. To towards the situation in Myanmar, I don't think that will be because there is a continuation of the military involvement in the Thai political process through this political party that has the backing of General Prayut chan o Cha. So it's a coalition of the civilian side, as well as the military side of the Thai government at this point in time, and for the next few years to come.
Host 13:09
So to clarify, you don't you don't envision? I'm not sure of the pronunciation, whether it's per title or PAL Thai, you don't envision that party as as trying to change the direction of Thailand and try to fight the military on these issues?
Kasit Piromya 13:27
No, because they are in coalition with the political parties that are backed up, or belong to the former generals and the military establishment. So I don't think the per tie party, the leading coalition partner will have much of the same or the influence to change the causes of the direction of Thai foreign policy measures.
Host 13:53
Okay. That's, that's a very unfortunate and sobering analysis. But it's very good for us to have this insight so early on in the new government. So so we really appreciate hearing that. But then let's, let's move to the broader ASEAN context. So you've written quite extensively, I've written quite a few articles since the coup. And one of the issues that I want to focus on is your views with regards to the special envoys that ASEAN has sent to oversee the the crisis in in Myanmar. You have you have written that a rotating special envoy is not viable that ASEAN needs to have a permanent person in this position. Can you can you explain briefly why you feel that a rotating envoy is a bad idea?
Kasit Piromya 14:46
The road dating advice was agreed by the ASEAN leaders, I think at the meeting in April two years ago, you know in the years 22 22 and it has proven that this rotating, ASEAN Special Envoy for the Myanmar crisis has not produced any positive result. Because the special envoy was selected by which country is in the chair of ASEAN. And two years ago, it was Cambodia. And then, two years ago, it was Brunei. Then last year, it was Cambodia. And this year it is Indonesia. And when whichever country or whichever president or prime minister of that particular country that has the ASEAN chairmanship, you know, select or pick up one of his ministers or senior officials and so on to be the ASEAN Special Envoy, and each of the summit Special Envoy so far, wall has not been well versed with the Myanmar, political setup, and happenings and so on. And he has to work under the instruction of the chairman, but not necessarily under the collective decision and mandate of the ASEAN Foreign Minister or the ASEAN leaders, whether they're suited to Brunei, the president of Indonesia, and the various Prime Minister of the ASEAN member states. So it is a sort of a short term work have having a duration of about one year. But ASEAN chairman, so I have come together with some of my friends in the civil society circle, that it would be better if ASEAN were to appoint a sort of a permanent, special, the ASEAN Special Envoy for the Myanmar crisis, and at the same time to set up a sort of unit attached to the ASEAN Secretariat in Jakarta, Indonesia, so that this sort of a permanency could facilitate more the collective ASEAN position to deal with the military establishment of Myanmar, as well as to deal with the Democratic Opposition of Myanmar, in the name of the national unity government. And that's permanent, special envoy of ASEAN, will have more time to study the what you call, the complexity of the matters and so on. And he doesn't have to keep on thinking that in six months or eight months time, his turn will end, he will have a sense of I think duration, longevity in the attempt to carry out his responsibilities on behalf of the ASEAN as a whole.
Host 17:58
So I think that's a very reasonable and very, very wise approach. But I'd be interested in your thoughts nevertheless, on the current invoice as they've as they've come. You've, you've written critically about production, and I think many in the international community have Cambodia's position with regards to Myanmar is is reasonably clear. Although I believe both Proxima Khan and Hun Sen himself warned the military not to carry out the executions that they carried out last year. I think many of us found that a little bit unusual. It felt almost like a rebuke coming from a military dictatorship to another military dictatorship. Do you have any insight into why Cambodia would have would have tried to to push the junta to not take that that radical step?
Kasit Piromya 18:56
Because Splatoon said, the former Prime Minister of Thailand because now the prime minister of Cambodia, is now his son, general Hoon manette. So he and his son both of them won the elections on the 23rd of July and even the elections four years before that. But it was half democracy in the sense that only some that goons and his son Party ran in the election. And all the major opposition political parties were being nullified. You know, and a lot of their leaders were being charged with many criminal court cases. A lot of their leaders have fled the country and settle abroad, especially in Thailand to a certain extent in Malaysia. Some even lived in France for the past few years. Like some ramsI, the former finance minister and the former leader of the I think the opposition political party, so the current alternating the past and the current Cambodian government auto elect that is only or one majority democratically elected party because there was no opposition. So in short, some that he wouldn't say or his son at the moment, the new prime minister of Cambodia, they are authoritarian they are autocrats and for any autocrats to, to lecture the Myanmar military establishment about democracy would be quite unbecoming. You know, it would be in contravention to the basic common sense. And who said, I think not a Democratic person, how can he lecture the military authorities of Myanmar about democracy? So he doesn't have the DNA, or the comfort, feeling to talk about democracy with the Myanmar military who into when he is also very authoritarian? You know, he's running Cambodia, sort of one party authoritarian regime. So that is the answer of why Hussein could not do anything when he was in the chair of ASEAN, two years ago. And I don't think he has the inclination, or the political will to talk about democracy because he is very undemocratic.
Host 21:33
But then, okay, so let's let's talk about the first Special Envoy who was who was appointed that use of from from Brunei, he's not spoken about much. I think Flexicon got a lot of attention. But that use of technology, how do you appraise his performance because he seemed to reject the meetings with the hunter, when the junta were not willing to allow them to use have to meet with opposition leaders not willing to allow him to meet with on some sushi. And he seemed to take a stand from an outside perspective, he seemed to take a stand to say, no, if we are going to engage on this matter, we have to engage on Essayons terms, we will not allow the junta to dictate terms to us. Would you would you agree that he he took that stance? Or do you have a differing opinion,
Kasit Piromya 22:21
it was not so clear, but I would like to explain it from from a couple of points. First, when he became the ASEAN Special Envoy, it was already going into the mists of the year 2022. and Brunei at that time only has about six months left to carry out the chairmanship of ASEAN. So the time was short for the Brunei appointed special envoy for ASEAN. And the person that data he was not well versed in the I think mainland Southeast Asian affairs, I don't think he knows much about the politics inside Myanmar or in Thailand. So he was very much new to degree to the game. And second, he represented a very, I think, absolute monarchy type of government, because the Sultanate of Brunei is, I think, headed by the Sudan, which is, you know, authoritarian in that sense. So Brunei as a whole also like soap that tunes and was not in the position to talk much about democratic principles and matters and so on. And they also would not be in the position through that Special Envoy to lecture the military junta in Myanmar, about democracy and the need to return democracy to the people of Myanmar. So that is a failure, you know, in the spirit in the thinking, and in the circumstances, surrounding the Brunei special envoy. And the context, the political context of Brunei, that does not give did not give much hope for the democratic forces of Myanmar, and for the democratic forces of the citizens of the ASEAN community.
Host 24:09
So you've you've spoken quite strongly, and you've written quite extensively about the importance of democracy. And you've even written about your view that ASEAN needs to be reformed into a collection of democratic states. And that's something that I definitely want to touch on later in this interview. But with that in mind, now that Indonesia is in the chairmanship of ASEAN, which is a democratic state, do you feel that Retno Marsudi is in a better position than his predecessor to affect change in Myanmar?
Kasit Piromya 24:41
She was definitely because she represents the most democratic country inside the ASEAN community. See, but what has been the problem? I think the real the reluctancy for Indonesia to pushed for the realisation of the five point consensus. So it has very much to do with the quality of the leadership, the cuts and the determination, and the genuine in firm belief in democracy in this verse to, to be itself as a democratic nation, for the past several months, and so on. And for the few months remaining until the end of the year 2023, Indonesia is still in the position to push for the realization of the five point consensus and to push the Myanmar military authorities into the corner, and for them to comply, because Indonesia, is in the position to rally the collective will of the rest of the ASEAN and to speak with one voice in a very firm manner to the military authorities of Myanmar. But I think sometimes things has very much to do with the character of the person, either the president of Indonesia, or the foreign minister of Indonesia, I think both of them had have been underperforming, not reflecting the true nature of Indonesia as a democratic entity, a big disappointment. Indeed, that's the first point. Second, when ASEAN was formed 50 something 70 years ago, the reason why the five founding members of ASEAN came together because they have a common ideology, namely to a to oppose the expansion of communism. And then they, together with the international community or the democratic community, were victorious in defeating the communism repulse the domino theory. And that led to the end of the Cold War, the demise of the Soviet Union, I think the prime mover of communism, and so on, say, so the week there are five ASEAN members that did succeed in repulsing communism in general. And second in getting Vietnam out of Cambodia about more than 20 years ago, and returned democracy to Cambodia, with the interim un administration with a new constitution and with democracy, parliamentary democracy in practice, but who instead turn democracy into a semi democratic regime for for Cambodia, as everyone knows, but my point is that the composition of ASEAN of the 10 without a common ideology of repulsing communism, the composition of the member state of ASEAN is very mixed. Indeed, that is the absolute monarchy in Brunei. There are two communist regimes in Laos and Vietnam, then, Thailand, the Philippines, even Myanmar under Aung San su chi was struggling for democracy and trying to but failed to push the military establishment back into that bear wraps and respect the civilian democratic rules. The situation in the Philippines and in Malaysia is not quite tenable, although they have elected government and so on. But that is I think there was rising authoritarianism in the Philippines under President Duterte. And Malaysia, has now been confronting with the rise of political Islam or political Islam, which is a big problem. And only Indonesia is left to can say to the world, loud and clear that it is the most advanced democratic, but the 10 ASEAN members that together is a mixed lot. absolute monarchy, communist one party rule, Cambodia, one man rule, and in Thailand, a mix of civilian and military government or a law. So there is no common ideology about democracy. And when we have to talk anything about democracy in Myanmar, we cannot altogether set that the other nine of us without Myanmar in a very collective, ideal ideological oriented manner. So everyone doesn't have the I think the real heart the real aspiration for democratic ASEAN, and for that reason why I think two years ago, I did get together with some of the fellow politicians in Cambodia, in Indonesia, in Malaysia, and in Thailand, and so on, to push for a complete transformation of ASEAN, that every member state of ASEAN should start the process of democratization and to turn ASEAN From a very mixed political systems into a democratic system all together, this is a dream. This is a wish that I'm still pursuing. But as long as it's a mixture of various political regimes, I don't think ASEAN has the heart or the collective will to do anything much about the return of democracy to Myanmar, that has all along with the inherent difficulty within ASEAN or inside ASEAN so Hoon said was going about his way on the five point consensus, Brunei, also and the Thai government, the recent Thai government under general budget, Archer OHR also was combing about his way, and most of the time forgetting that collective decision, on the five point consensus, the problem has to do with each of the ASEAN leaders that do not put their hearts and mind and their sincerity into the five point consensus. So the five point consensus for the past two year has been more or less a total failure about the collective leadership and the collective will of the ASEAN community as a whole. Now, that's me a change that needs to be changed into a democratic direction for all of the ASEAN members that
Host 31:22
and you've opened up a couple of directions of of inquiry here, which, which I really appreciate. So before we get on to the five point consensus, let's let's talk about your views on ASEAN, because you wrote two years ago, quite, quite a bold title, your article indicates Asia, ASEAN must be transformed or replaced a very, very strong title and you argue for the need for ASEAN to be reforged. With the with the premise with the requirement that member states be democratic. If this does not happen, what do you think will occur with ourselves?
Kasit Piromya 32:02
Well, I think it's not happening. But I remain optimistic, I will keep on pushing for a democratic ASEAN and for democracy to take place in each of the ASEAN members that That is my wish, my dream. And it's my DNA, I am a Democrat, I am a liberal Democrat. You know, and I said this loud and clear and inviting fellow politician in the whole of Southeast Asia, the media, the academy circle, their civil society organization, the ASEAN citizens in general, to come around and work for the transformation of ASEAN from a mix reteams. Okay, into a democratic entity. And I think, is the only way out the only answer for the future of ASEAN. And we have seen the successful story of at least two organizations in the world. First, the European Union, which is every member 27 of them, is a democratic regime. Second, equal last, the Western Regional organization of the African continent, which lately has come out very strongly to fight for democracy against the coup d'etat in Nigeria. So they are fighting for democracy, because the rest of the members are democratic. And then there is something very laudable very something that that everyone has to press and something that the ASEAN as our sort of fellow developing entity could learn from eco VAs eco was has taken the lead, and why not ask him to fight for democracy, and not to remain, I think uncaring about what's going on inside Myanmar, the plight, the suffering of the ordinary Myanmar people and the death of democracy in Myanmar.
Host 34:04
So, I think that's a very laudable praiseworthy goal. But allow me to play devil's advocate for a second, you You stated that the European Union has 27 Member States, all of whom are democracies. And certainly that is the principle. But if I can point to examples, such as Poland, most importantly, Hungary, countries, which were democratic when they joined, and have started declining to autocracy so extreme, in fact that Hungary is often no longer considered to be a democratic state by her European Union partners. Do you foresee any way to prevent a slide back into authoritarian regimes even if the ASEAN member states become democracies?
Kasit Piromya 34:46
But let me answer it by talking about the European Union first, I did serve in Brussels as a young diplomat for 3040 years ago, and I did have the admiration deep admiration and you with jealousy for the member states of the European Union. And if Poland and Hungary were to misbehave, it's up to the rest of the members that Democratic member state of the European Union to take stock. And to come out more firmly to bring Hungary and Poland back to the Democratic for it is an internal matter that I think all the members that should sit down and talk together at the EU headquarters in Brussels, they have to solve their own problem. Because if they were to allow authoritarian to slip back into the European Union, then I think that would be the beginning of the end of the European Union as a democratic entity. But I'm sure that the citizens of Europe, we will not allow that to happen because everyone has benefited from democracy within the respective countries, as well as within the European Union as a whole. It is a homework, and it is a challenge for the European Union, to redress the situation. But heading to the sliding back into authoritarianism in Hungary, and Poland, and there must be some sort of a courage for the rest of the of the European union leadership to tell Hungary and Poland, what is black and what is white, what is authoritarianism? What is democracy, for them to solve that internal problem. But for ASEAN, we haven't gotten to that level as yet, we are still a mixed lot of absolute monarchy, authoritarian and so on. So we still have the future to to end authoritarian nisam of any kind inside a member state of ASEAN, and to turn every member state and ASEAN as a whole into a democratic entity. That is, that will not be a future for ASEAN, as long as we are a mixed lot, because we will be overlooked or forgotten. We are not on the radar screen. In the I think the geopolitics and geo economics of the Asia Pacific region or the Indo Pacific region, we have to take stop, look at ourselves that the way we are is not conducive to ourselves, when we talk to the people and to ourselves, about the centrality of the people, the centrality of the pupils being the people have to live in a democratic environment, and not in any type of authoritarian regime. At the same time, ASEAN has announced to the world about ASEAN centrality in the affairs of the Indo Pacific, or the Asia Pacific region, for the centrality to come there must be unity, sense of purpose, common aspiration and common ideology within ASEAN, for ASEAN to play that centrality role in the, in the Asia Pacific region. And so far, we have not been able to do that because of the differences in the political setup. And we have been bypassed, either by the Chinese or by the United States, or we have been interfered all the time, by China and by the United States. And the happenings that has been going on, you know, the getting together of China, Russia and North Korea, on one side, the getting together of the United States, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Australia, India, New Zealand, on the other side, then why is ASEAN is not here and there. And we are being held in we are being interfere. So ASEAN needs to come together and have a collective position. But some sort of collectives, position must be based on common aspiration, ideas and ideologies. During the Cold War, we were anti communism, post cold war we call for globalization. But that's not enough. We have also have to move in the direction of democracy, for us to be a viable entity, and to have a voice and a bargaining power in the affairs of the world in general, and in the affairs and happenings of the Asia Pacific region. It is a homebirth for all ASEAN citizens as well as all the political leaders of the ASEAN countries and community.
Host 39:38
So I think the very big question that then comes because you've mentioned, you know, the European Union would have to take steps to control Hungary and Poland. You mentioned that ASEAN needs to have a central sort of thesis or driving force and that globalism is globalization is the current sort of theme Do you envision? Or can you predict any sort of mechanism that ASEAN could have or should have or might develop, to control a situation like Myanmar because this is the heart of the issue? ASEAN has a very strong non intervention policy, it feels very much that the European Union wanted to integrate its countries into a single unit. Whereas ASEAN wanted to protect the individuality of all of those countries, first and foremost. And the consequence of that is that nobody really knows what to do about Myanmar at least that's how I would see it. What would you envision being a mechanism that ASEAN can develop, to prevent these crises and to solve these crises?
Kasit Piromya 40:40
Okay, if tomorrow I were to take over the handling of the Thai government. I would do one thing. I as the Prime Minister, or foreign minister, or any political party leader, would take the initiative of talking to the rest of the ASEAN member states, about the reweaving the collectiveness of ASEAN. And second, to start talking about the democratic transformation of the whole of ASEAN, that's the first point. Second, if I were to be in the chair of ASEAN, I would do a lot of shuttle diplomacy. And if I were to appoint a special envoy for the Asad envoy for the Myanmar crisis, I would instruct the PAI appoint that Special Envoy for ASEAN to go to all the capitals of ASEAN to try to, I think, enhance the joint position and bargaining chief of ASEAN under the five point consensus. And secondly, I would also speak on behalf of ASEAN in a very strong manner to the military authorities in Myanmar. And at the same time, I will reach out to the national unity government of Myanmar, I will do this without inhibition inhibition without any hesitation, because I will doing is for the common benefit of ASEAN as a whole and for democracy for ASEAN as a whole. And for the return of democracy to Myanmar. In particular, we need someone a politician inside the ASEAN to take the mantle of leadership. And I would like to recall that at the inception of ASEAN, my foreign minister at that time, Dr. Pernot, Carmen was very active in the in consulting, talking and doing this shadow diplomacy with fellow ASEAN member states. And from Indonesia at that time, we have very excellent foreign minister in the name of Ali Allah TAs, I think you might remember, I think he was a first class foreign minister, and Malaysia has that after that, before that, we have Adam Malik of Indonesia, we have Romolo of the Philippines and we have Ghazali. And I think several foreign ministers for Malaysia and so on. They were very proactive. And then they have the guts the courage to speak out, and to do many things. And all along Singapore under Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew was very active behind the sea, giving ideas recommendation and advice to help push ASEAN forward as a cohesive entity. And for that reason, okay. We were we were very vocal and have a lot of work attention and support in the international community. And in particular, at the United Nation, especially when Vietnam occupied Cambodia. We all spoke with one voice, and God the international community support, including China and the Soviet Union to later tell the Vietnamese authority to get all of the armed forces out of Cambodia. And subsequently, the UN had the interim administration in Cambodia. It was a very success story of the ASEAN collectiveness a sense of togetherness, a sense of purpose and sense of leadership and initiative. And to do that during things and not to be caught by hesitancy and lack of courage. I would have to renew that sense of purpose starting with Thailand, and through Thailand to speak to the rest of the ASEAN community. And I regret it, as I said a few minutes ago that Indonesia, under President Jacobo should have done this because he is the most I think he comes from the most democratic member of us I set the largest economy and has a voice in the world in the non aligned movement now in the G 20. And in the Islamic or in the Muslim world, Indonesia has been performing under par, not up to the standard that it should. But I think one of the foreign minister or one of the ASEAN leaders at this point in time, can take up the initiative and the responsibility to lead and to control the rest of the ASEAN leaders to come along and solve the Myanmar crisis. And at the same time to start talking about the democratic transformation of ASEAN because it will be good for ASEAN. Its standing and influence in the activities around the world and particularly in the Asia Pacific region.
Host 45:56
So you talk a lot, your emphasis is very much on diplomacy, and this sort of soft touch. But with Myanmar in particular, do you think that there is any democratic solution because men are lying and the junta don't seem to really listening? They're running circles around ASEAN envoys, UN Special Envoys, they're making a mockery, I think, of the five point consensus of any international rebuke or statement or resolution. And they're simply ignoring it and doing business with with countries who will engage in in bad faith. countries like Russia, countries like China. And and they're supporting themselves by by plundering and pillaging the country. And they don't care that the international community doesn't like them, and they don't care about diplomatic overtures. Do you feel that there is a possibility of solving this crisis? Definitely policy alone?
Kasit Piromya 46:52
Definitely first. The rest of ASEAN must have the guts determination, the collective will and elite leadership. And I think senior gentlemen online, the junta leader of Myanmar only understand heart language, when diplomacy has so far failed, and was I think, ignore and insulted completely. By senior general I mean, online. So what is needed now is hard language and tangible action, we could come out with the point number six, you get to add to the five point concepts in suspension of Myanmar membership in ASEAN. We could have a collective sanctions on the Myanmar authorities and their wealth and their affiliates, which I think the singer a big Singapore bank has just about two weeks ago, has come out with a pronouncement and decision to suspend all financial activities banking activities with the Burmese banking community, especially those that are backed by the military junta. And if Singaporean bank can do that the rest of the banks in the rest of the ASEAN country can do similarly. So suspension of membership suspension of all financial banking and trade activities. Thailand could also do that by not by paying for the gas pipeline for Myanmar into an escrow account. And keep that until Myanmar returned to democracy, but not to give the money for the gas to the banking account of the military junta insight Myanmar. So we can do many things. You know, at the same time, ASEAN has the dialogue relation or partnership with China, with Russia and India, then ASEAN collectively can speak in a loud and clear voice to the Chinese to the Russians to the Indians, stop backing the military junta, otherwise the partnership will have to be sustained but for the time being, because the activities in I think supporting the military junta is undermining democracy in Myanmar and also hurting the very soul and the very physical well being of their Myanmar people and undermining the ASEAN unity and sense of purpose. So we can do anything if you start to sit down at the table, and talk all of this point and come out with a set of stronger measures. We service the Myanmar authority at the same time the ASEAN to get can start having a more formal relationship with the national unity government of the Democratic Opposition of Myanmar. We can provide humanitarian assistance across the border from Thailand in cooperation with the N ug and all the democratic forces to support A civil society organization from the Myanmar side and on the Thai side, to help the on the humanitarian crisis and so on. And ASEAN can come together and stop, you know, having the ASEAN human humanitarian center, dealing directly with the military junta, but to deal with the UN agencies and to deal with the Thai government, as a major facility facilitator for cross border humanitarian assistance. And we can all together bring all of this up at the current UN General Assembly, for the world at large to suspend relationship with the ability wouldn't have an act accordingly, with the American government, the American firms, European firms, all of them have to toe in line, and bring the message across to the junta in Myanmar, that their days are numbered. And ASEAN is with the people of Myanmar and no longer being diplomatically, nice to the ability junta, heart language, heart measures, hard words are needed at this point in time. And we can do it if we have the will, the political will to do it, we can do.
Host 51:14
So I definitely think that that would put a lot of pressure on the hunter. The big question is, do you think that the hunters almost guaranteed ongoing relationships with China, with Russia and potentially with with other states that are quite opposed to international cooperation? We could say for example, North Korea, we could say for example, Iran, both countries that have been tentatively connected to the junta Do you think those connections would be sufficient to keep the junta in power and drive them to isolate themselves further from the international community? Or is ASEAN and and let's say the West, collectively strong enough to force the military to the negotiating table.
Kasit Piromya 51:57
I think, half I think if ASEAN and the Democratic international community to coordinate more, it will be a big heavy, wet against the junta and against the, I think unbecoming activities of the Chinese and the Russian leadership's. But concurrently or simultaneously, all of us ASEAN and the Democratic international community must reach out and render support and recognition to the N ug and all the democratic forces of Myanmar. That will be a very strong bargaining chip in the message clearly to the junta that they have no more friends left, inside cn, and inside the democratic international community. My point is, if the democratic world have has come together on the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Japan, South Korea have gone all the way including Australia, to support Ukraine to repose Russia on the behest and push of the United States. Why not Japan know something more and more at its backdoor insight Myanmar, the Japanese behavior is not consistent why they support Ukraine on the word democracy, and they close their eyes altogether. On the question of democracy, insight, Myanmar, Japan also has to take some sort of a blame on that one, and Japan is a full fledged democratic entity, they should pay more attention to the SE HCMC next to their home, instead of doing whatever the United States tell them to do. Is that what you call not carrying out their responsibility to the ASEAN as their dialogue partner, and I think the biggest area where Japan has a lot of economic interests See, So Japan is another one inside the group g7 Or a friend of the European Union, we are in a position to do much much more but so far, that has not happened because we have not started to talk to one another. So there must be a leader inside at the end somewhere that get the the other eight ASEAN together to speak with one voice in a strong manner with drastic concrete measures. We service the military junta, and at the same time support the N ug and go out to the world to the UN, to the UN General Assembly. Okay, speak to all the dialogue partners, let's work together to put the military junta back into a bad day by reps.
Host 54:51
So you mentioned Japan and I find it interesting I remember reading an analysis I can't remember who who wrote it. But the the idea of the The statement being made was that Japan, the United States, the European Union, Australia, a number of other countries, were interested in putting pressure on the junta, but did not want to, as it was put step on the toes of ASEAN and are and are waiting to see ASEAN take a lead? Do you think that that is is happening do you think are signs hesitancy to be
Kasit Piromya 55:23
good, and I think they are all standing behind ASEAN with the accused, it's with the excuse that this is ASEAN responsibility in order that each one of them and collectively, we will not do anything, then they are not true to democracy. They are not true to that service themselves. And they are not carrying out their global responsibility on democracy, human rights and sense of decency. They have to work with us, they're not standing behind of ASEAN, when they now know quite well, that there is a split inside ASEAN there is this unity and lack of a common sense of purpose. So they have to come out on the frontlines to stand firm by themselves and speak to the Myanmar military authorities, or stand with ASEAN together and push for the realisation of the five point consensus with additional measures that I have mentioned, towards the military junta, and give recognition, diplomatic recognition to the N ug, that will be a big bargaining power to tell the military junta that they are no longer the supreme authority in Myanmar, is an alternative and this particular authoritative, in the name of the N ug has now the backing of the international community and ASEAN as a whole.
Host 56:49
So I think you I mean, the insights you're offering are amazing. I think that what the question now becomes is what's happening behind closed doors in ourselves. Because ASEAN, we've had, you know, a string of envoys, we have the five point consensus. And just recently, we saw the announcement that Myanmar would not receive the rotating RCM president's presidential position. And instead, it would be handed to the Philippines, I think in 2026. But how much time is ASEAN actually dedicating internally to discussing the crisis, to coming up with a plan for the crisis and to actually carrying something out cohesively. And how much is is just sort of performative and delaying? I
Kasit Piromya 57:36
think if you are a gladiator in the Roman theatre, Coliseum of the past, you got to fight for your life. And now it's for the ASEAN to fight for human rights for the Myanmar people. And for democracy as a whole. There is no more hesitancy, there is no more passing the buck to the successive chairmanship, ASEAN needs to get together. And I have just mentioned, there is a need now for one particular as a leader to take the mantle of leadership, and try to get every ASEAN to get on the same boat, speak with one voice, come with a set of measures to tell the military junta that you have no more to be in power, you have to relinquish power and give back democracy to Myanmar. So that they must be that you know, in strength, belief in righteousness in democracy in one of group of ASEAN current leaders is never too late. It's only two years okay, maybe it sounds a long time for the Myanmar people. But there is still time for the ASEAN people to get lead together. And that is no need, you know, to have ASEAN submit, Foreign Minister meeting which is going on at this point in time in Jakarta, we can work together 365 days a year, but we need someone to start the initiative and to keep on working every day. You know, to put the five point consensus or the five point plus into place and tell them military Quint that we give you three months six months to relinquish power or you can tell them to do according to the second point of the fight by consensus, namely, to talk to the counterpart we have been suggesting, informally to the Indonesian government for Indonesia took to a horse, the all stakeholders, meeting of the Myanmar forces and so on you Indonesia could invite the junta as well as the Democratic office opposition to the meeting in Jakarta, it could be hybrid one, both online and face to face because some of the Myanmar opposition leaders do not have travel document, Indonesia to get away, the UN can issue travel document, and tell the Thai government to give the right of passage to come across the border for Myanmar, or at the border to go through the airports of Thailand to get to Jakarta. So this is something that we all have to tell the new Thai Government to cooperate and act accordingly. So the time is never too late. Give me that. I will do it.
Host 1:00:46
But you say it's never too late that the question is, is anyone within ASEAN actually doing this work yet? Or trying to get this work done yet?
Kasit Piromya 1:00:54
Well, I could tell you, I think you're not because it still has been a confidential thing as there is a move by an international NGO that has started to talk to me. And two former foreign minister, one of Indonesia and one of Malaysia, whether the three of us could get together an app as a sort of a non governmental entity, to help the processes of the fight by consensus, and to push the ASEAN governments to do more. And also to send message across to the military winter, this is still in the making. But again, it is the undertaking of non governmental people, I or my two former foreign minister colleagues are not in the government at the moment. So maybe we are in a sort of a neutral position to do that, that could be done, you know, or if not, ASEAN, Indonesia, as the chair of, of ASEAN still have a couple of months to go, they could do what we have been discussing so far, you know, also in taking up the real leadership, and have another meeting, maybe starting with at the level of the permanent secretary is of the Foreign Office, the senior official meeting, which is a viable entity of ASEAN. And then we can have more informal political meetings, not necessarily Foreign Minister, but I think senior members in the Parliament of each of the ASEAN country to get together and forge a common front and so on, to speak with one voice and to put more pressure on the military junta, and reaching out to the democratic forces of Myanmar under the leadership or coordination of the national unity government. So anything can be done, what it needs is a sort of a vision initiative, and the willpower to take a difficult work to take up the challenges. But that's what we are all politicians is all about to solve the problems. We have We are politician whether in office or not in office, most task is to solve problems. So we have problems with Myanmar, we have problems within ASEAN, let us resolve the problem. There is no point in meeting and take a photo session and come out with beautiful word that statements that is has no value unless unless they are turned into concrete action. So stop, you know, having this public relation exercise of having a meeting photo session and come up with a statement and nothing happened in that we got to do the real world. Look at it as a matter of life and death for democracy for human rights of ASEAN, then there will be some sort of a thing, the aspiration, the ambition to solve problems, the crisis in Myanmar as well as this, the lack of unity and cohesion inside the ASEAN community.
Host 1:04:05
So okay, so you've mentioned the national unity government quite a few times. And one thing that we've seen, for example, in terms of the responses from the United States and the European Union is that the rejection of the junta and the acceptance of the national unity government seem to be two very different things. A lot of international actors are happy to criticize the junta condemned the junta even potentially declare them to be illegitimate and criminal, without also taking the other step of recognizing the national unity government. Why do you think there's been so much hesitation in in recognizing the national unity government and legitimizing them?
Kasit Piromya 1:04:41
Well, I think it's the guts, the courage and the determination of the Japanese Prime Minister, the Secretary of State of the United States, the foreign minister of Canada, the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister have have a Australia and New Zealand or even the president of the foreign minister of South Korea. You know, they are in the position to serve not only for their own nation, but also for the common good of mankind. So a prime minister of foreign ministers, in any of the democratic dialogue partners of ASEAN could do that. And we have proven that we could have done this together when I cited the example of we all getting together ASEAN and the dialogue partners or democratic committees, when we took get defeated the occupation of Vietnam, in Cambodia, set up the interior un administration for Cambodia and brought back democracy to Cambodia after the Civil War and the dominance of the Khmer Rouge. We have done that in the past by Can we do it again. And I think the issue is much less profound and sinister, in Myanmar than in Cambodia of the past, because there was large scale genocide by the Khmer Rouge. And on top of that, in the modern history of the world, Vietnam has the audacity to occupied a neighboring country threaten the sovereignty of Thailand, the frontline state of the free world at the frontlines, that of the ASEAN community of the six at that time. But we collectively did succeed succeed in defeating communism and repose and corporate of Vietnam, from Cambodia. And when there was the Nyquist cyclone in Myanmar 10 years ago, ASEAN collectively was able to convince the ability junta or Myanmar at the time to open the country for international humanitarian assistance and rehabilitation of Myanmar. It was a collective undertaking, started with the collectiveness of ASEAN. And once we have the collectiveness of ASEAN and the political will, the international community including the United Nations did come along and work together in unison to help overcome the devastation of the Nikon. NAC is in Myanmar. So two things that we have done together. And I could even venture to say that the controversy and the skirmishes between Cambodia and Thailand on account of the disputed area around the Hindu temple prep me han Sen was of a collective will, you're trying to pacify both Cambodia, and Thailand. And Indonesia at that time, was in the chair of ASEAN, Indonesia took the responsibility of bringing the matters to the attention of the UN Security Council that eventually led to the settlement at the International Court of Justice, they will call, I let the Thai delegation to the UNSC meeting, and the leadership and the LEA some work of Indonesia in the chair of ASEAN at that time, it was a very laudable act of leadership, and concern for the commonality, common good of ASEAN on behalf of the Indonesian leadership at that time, the Prime Minister and the President Bambang, yo yo, and the foreign minister, Naga of Indonesia. And we also work a lot together in the solution to the East Timor, question between East Timor and Indonesia. And now, East Timor is going to become a full fledged member of ASEAN. And there was now the reconciliation between Indonesia and East Timor. And ASEAN, has very much had a role very much in the role of Thailand even sent a contingents of soldiers to help the peacekeeping operation in East Timor. So we have done a lot of things together in the past, then why not we do the same thing on the Myanmar crisis. It needs the vision, the political will and the collective determination to help solve so it within our abilities to be able to do that. And once we had the ASEAN collective position, I am very sure that members of the United Nations and the ASEAN dialogue partners will come around and work with us.
Host 1:10:03
So, I think you bring up these examples. And one thing that strikes me as distinct when we look at East Timor, when we look at the conflict between Vietnam and Cambodia, we were talking about governments that existed Cambodia had its own government, it was just under occupation from Vietnam. The the internal nature of the conflict in Myanmar seems to be giving a lot of people hesitation, and the national unity government has effectively had to establish itself from nothing. Since the coup, which I would argue and many people have argued is a is an incredible achievement that has never really been successfully performed before in human history. So it does seem that there is a lot of untested ground when it comes to recognizing the national unity government. Is there anything the national unity government in your view should be doing or could be doing?
Kasit Piromya 1:10:58
I think to find first, you know, that hesitation is only an excuse of not doing anything, that is not acceptable. That's unbecoming. If Japan or the United States are members of you, and of the European Union, and Australia and New Zealand believe in democracy and democracy, there should not be hesitation to do what should be done. I don't need to be the prophet to tell them what to do they know, but there is no political will. So the excuses have been forthcoming, but this is an ASEAN responsibility, we will back and so no, you come out on the forefront, to say what you have to say to do what you have to do, they there is no need for hesitation, hesitation cannot be allowed is two years already. Okay? That's the first point, everything second point, everything sometimes has to start from nothing. But you have to have the will to solve the problem. First, you can come with the excuses that we have no power to do anything to bility junta, then ug is only a sort of a shadow entity. They don't control any grounds insight, Myanmar, then that's another excuses. But if you don't think all of these excuses for you to do nothing, but go right away in giving diplomatic recognition to end up, then it's a beginning, a good beginning, for things to come later, but to come up with all the arguments of the negative side that is not this and not that and so on. I think you are not a good politician, whether you are in the European Union in North America, or in in the in the South Pacific part of Australia and New Zealand and so on, you got to do something that there was no precedents. But that is what human intelligence and human goodwill is all about. You go into the dark, that you do not show that there is light at the tunnel. But there is a need for you to go into the darkness take up the challenges, you have to start from that point. You cannot come late, I will go now because there is already light at the end of the tunnel. I don't condone all of these type of things. I think every politician the poverty one, whether they are in North America, or in Europe, or in the Asia Pacific region is doing his work. why may I say the bad? Like why the hell do you become a politician? When you do not have the guts determination to do what you believe? What is your inner soul? What is your idealism, you have to act accordingly. And you don't have you don't have to go out with the excuses anymore. You can come out and say because I am a liberal, because I'm a democratic, I believe in human rights. And I have a human concern for the Myanmar people. Therefore I will do this and that. That's it.
Host 1:14:02
But then the question the way that I perceive this, as a Westerner, I feel that this is something that that pervades Western politics, and political thinking, is this question of legitimacy? I completely agree with what you're saying. Yes, but I feel that many people within Western political establishments will look at the new G will say yes, I want to support the new G. But then they will ask the question. What if it backfires? Does the energy have legitimacy? can I justify my move? Five years, 10 years down the line? Do I have the legitimacy to declare them to be the government of Myanmar? And I think that's what they're afraid of. They want someone else to give them the legitimacy.
Kasit Piromya 1:14:44
But surely they will know this sentence. That energy is the result of the defunct demise of democracy, which came as a from the hands of the junta. You need any more explaination as a Democratic politician, so in that sense, you have to go and support the energy of or whatever it is that was denied. democratic right to rule the country. Is there any more proof because the results of the general elections on the I think 10, November 2021, had said so in black and white, that word, there was the overwhelming victory by the NLD party under the leadership of Aung San su chi. And when the parliament was about to be convened, on the first of February 2022, the military moved, took over the power, dissolve the parliament, imprison all the major political figures, members of MPs that was to be coming to the Parliament, imprisoned on all of them together, and set up a kangaroo court to bring more years of imprisonment to Aung San su chi, and her entourage or his her colleagues and so on, is so blatant. On top of this, what do you call it? 24,000 political prisoners? Isn't there enough evidence already for the Western world, the so called democratic Westerville, to still have the hesitation and to keep are looking for more excuses of not doing anything, then don't come and tell us that you are democratic, don't come and tell us that we would like to promote democracy around the world. Wow. Or the bushes of this world where or the Obamas of this world or disappeared? Well, or the fighters of Europe that came out against fascist Hitler, or communist Stalin? Or disappeared? They all have died. Or they still exist. But in fear of trying to do a good things. No, I think you you can't, you have to go. To bear the possibilities and wonder the possibility is to stretch out the hands to the end ug and see what happened. But it would be a great message to the junta that they are now not the sole unitary power of Myanmar. That is the entity that is recognized by the Democratic international community. Let's work one step at a time.
Host 1:17:44
So how do you appraise the performance of the national unity government as a government thus far, obviously, the circumstances are very unique, and they've only had about two years to establish themselves, but how do you see their performance?
Kasit Piromya 1:17:59
Okay, I'd be very frank, and also my apologies in advance to members of the duty the cabinet. I think they're quite amateurish and quite idealistic, but not realistic. And I have been telling them directly and indirectly, and I have said yes to too many of the NGOs, whether the currently currently NGOs or the shadow NGOs, some of the politicians from the ethnic minority states as well as to many of the Democratic activists of Myanmar living at the Mossad on the Thai Myanmar border, also up in Chiang Mai province in the north part of Thailand, I said that the N ug need a set of leadership that is visible. So, the what the new agey need is a face that programs and accepted by the democratic forces to be the spokesperson the voice the face of the democratic opposition forces. And I, having said that, then I mentioned the name of Fidel Castro. I mentioned Mao Zedong and to enlight 7080 years ago, or even Ching Hai Czech, of Taiwan of the KMT and lately about Lex, Walesa, Poland. They all started from nothing, or even to Ho Chi Minh, at that time, in sort of struggle for independence against the French colonialism, or even General Aung San the father of Aung San su chi, when they started a small group. They don't know what would be the future, but they're all the dangers. But there was a face and in the case of Indonesia We could not, never to forget the name of Sukarno. And the rest of the independent leadership of Indonesia, all started from a few names a few hands, but with a face. But energy so far has failed in agreeing among themselves, who is the leader, and they should stop dreaming about Aung San su chi becoming a leader again. Hers time has passed and she is imprisoned. They have to extract this entangle themselves from the aura of Aung San su chi, who had failed as the leader of democratic Myanmar by accommodating and being a complete and appeasement to the military junta, especially on the case of the atrocity inflicted on the Muslim minorities, the Rohingya, and some of the minorities, people like the chin, the Kachin, the currently the current or some of the chance. So there is a need for a face for a leadership that could speak strongly on behalf of all the democratic forces. And then they should stop, you know, attending too many panels and having a representative going to Brussels, to various capitals, and so on. Just work from where they throw the online and tell the world community. What are they thinking? There have been so much tops has been so much talk about the new Federal Democratic Myanmar. Why is the draft constitution? What are the principle of the new Federal Democratic women tell the world and it must be within the framework of the word inclusiveness, including the Rohingya, and every citizen of Myanmar has the same footing. There must be an end to the Burma nice session of Myanmar. And Aung San su chi if you could speak out, she would also said that no more urbanization of Myanmar, which has been a total failure, since Myanmar regained independence from the British colonial rule, no more dominance by one ethnic group over the rest of the ethnic minorities and so on. Speaking out clearly, that this is the position. And at the same time, each of the minorities that demand the current they're currently the Shan or the why the chin the kutchan. The Americans have to quickly build up the nation state entity to be part of the new federal and democratic Myanmar. So state building in each of the ethnic state is very, very important. And at the same time, the international community could help in the nation state building of the ethnic state, and at the same time, to be ready to help build the Federal Democratic, Myanmar, a nation state in a sort of a bigger framework. And many of the democratic countries like Germany, Canada, United States have had experiences on federalism, they can share the experience, they can advise, they can recommend or even work with the drafter. The set up drafters of the new Myanmar, federal and democratic constitution or even to help lay out the administrative framework on how to set up the federal country like I think the provinces of Canada or the state of the United States. So many examples are already available, or even to study the set up of Australia, again, which is a set a federal entity comprising many provinces like a state and so on.
Host 1:24:29
What do you think of the federal democracy charter that has already been released in two parts by the N ug
Kasit Piromya 1:24:36
I am okay with the first part and then I did write a personal suggested preamble which I have tabled to many of the Burmese friends that I think the constitution should have a preamble. Like the US preamble the constituent we amble setting all the major principle first in the pre ample, then the detail of the current Constitution can can follow. Second, I am not quite comfortable with the chapter two, about crimes and punishment, that there is an intention to bring all the military generals and captains and colonels of the tatmadaw. To the Court of Justice, I think we are Asians, we do not have the western concept of crime and punishment, we are mostly beliefs is the forgiveness should be the name of the game and reconciliation. But concurrently, of course, they should get some punishment, or they should be denied any future political activities opposition in the government, then at the same time, there must be a fun to be set up with the help of the international community to do the compensations to all the affected families, including the families of the soldiers, that most of them will be ordered by the generals to go and kill people. But their families suffer like everyone else, they should also be compensated. So there could be some sort of appropriate punishment, but not to the death penalty, we are Buddhists. Second, they should not be allowed to come back to the service of the government. And we could look at the integration of East Germany and West Germany. Very few leaders of East Germany went to court. But most of the East German bureaucrats, politicians, and so on, when free, but they were not allowed to participate in the government activities until death do part them. So we could learn from the German example of the German university education in the cost of the 1989 onwards, and how it has been a very successful story of reconciliation and integration, and the equalization, or the upgrading of the life and the infrastructure in East Germany, to the level of West Germany.
Host 1:27:13
And so, you you also spoke about the need for charismatic leadership. Yes. And as answers, he continues to be a symbolic figurehead. We do have a couple of figures. At the moment, I think those are my own is taking a very sort of dominant role. Previously, Dr. Sasa was in a spokesman position. Currently, I think Nippon lab is taking taking over that role, was a Manas defense minister and so on. A couple of these members of the NUJ have really tried to take on this this face of the democratic movement. Right? How do you think they are performing in this role?
Kasit Piromya 1:27:50
I think they have. First they have to cut off themselves from the aura of Aung San su T. And we all must tell Aung San su chi that she can retire from politics. Because her leadership of the past five years before the coup d'etat was a total failure, at least from the eyes of the international community. So that should not be any more nostalgia about the coming back into politics of Aung San su 82nd, dispelled all together with the myth of the convinced stability and the permanency of Aung San su chi. Myanmar has to start a new with a new set of leadership. And I think the names that you have mentioned, it's for me, it's okay. Or even the current president or prime minister of energy, the gentleman from the change status and also agenda. So the five, six of them can, can confer confirm Assad have a consortium you know, a consortium of leadership and one of them should, should be the chair or they could have a rotating chair like the prime ministership of Switzerland, which rotates every year. You know, so you can do that. But the five of them should be the faces of the Democratic Myanmar. I am for it 1,000%. And the five of them must come out and speak more in unison to the to the Myanmar people and to the international community, and to start speaking with one voice to the ASEAN chair, and to each of the ASEAN government. That's what they have to do. It's almost two years now. It's about time that they emerge, and come out into the open and said that we are leading. And we have the consensus from the Berman majority, from the American from the Rohingya from the chin from the kitchen for the wife of the kokang from the man from the child for the Korean, currently a yacht and so on, off of the Shall I get that consensus and come out, don't stand behind the curtain anymore. And we tell to the world that we are going to take the responsibility of leadership, be not only visible by online facilities, but physically, they have to risk their life a bit because they might be hunted down and assassinated by the intelligence unit. And the assassin group of the Myanmar Millett wouldn't have that might go to the Thai Myanmar border, or come across into Thailand and fight to find them out and kill them. You know, they have to take the risk of their life, because that is a noble thing called service to the country and to the people. So their life is secondary, because this is a very crucial time for them to take the mantle of leadership and take the risks, even to their physical well being, to their life, and so on.
Host 1:31:04
So, ultimately, looking at the national unity government, you clearly have a lot of recommendations. And I agree with the recommendations, I can say, from personal knowledge and personal experience that there are many people within the national unity government who would also agree with everything that you've just said. My question to you is, do you believe that the national unity government has the resources and the means and the expertise to implement what you are suggesting internally? Or should the national unity government be looking externally for assistance?
Kasit Piromya 1:31:37
I think they have limited resources. And that is understandable. It's very natural indeed. So whatever resources they have to look at it, but with this set of resources, human as well as financial, what can they do? Okay, tell us the world. Second, once the there is a set of leadership, then you reach out to the international community. And my organization which I represent the ASEAN parliamentarian for human rights, APA, would be more than willing to be a sort of small spokesperson, and to do the liaison word from the N ug leadership to the international community, because we have fellow parliamentarians, current and former all around the world, not only in Asia Pacific, but in the African continent, and in Latin America, so we can reach out to them. We have met with the European Parliament, we met with the US Congress, we even went to the UN met somebody, senior officials, and so on. So we already have some sort of a linkage to various entities around the world. And once we have something quite solid, and definite, in terms of the leadership, in terms of the contents of what they want to do for the new Myanmar, then we would be in the position to help inform the world and get the word support.
Host 1:33:05
Excellent. So I think I think we've covered a very broad array of, of topics, and hopefully the people who hear this will be able to take action and, and try to implement positive change to to end the crisis in Myanmar,
Kasit Piromya 1:33:19
I think the odds against our joint undertaking, the Democratic Myanmar people and us, the international community that believe in democracy, and that the odds are very much against us. But there is a larger undertaking that we have to overcome the odds and try to meet the odds as much as we can. So that we have to have that determination and the guts and the will and not to be disheartened and given up or to do things have, you know, sort of half attempted manner. You have to have the self belief that in spite of the odds, we can overcome the odds and bring back democracy into Myanmar, you have to have that self belief. So my only message, or my only humble suggestion is that let's have the cell believe that we can overcome and what we think about Martin Luther and his great speech in Washington, DC, I think 1963 We shall overcome. And I think the plight of the colored people in America, in spite of the difficulties have has improved throughout the years, starting from the point of enslavement, slavery, to the Civil War, to the fight for equality, at the ballot box, and for the black people even to have a precedent in the name of Barack Obama. That's a great achievement. Of course, there are still, many odds are many challenges still going on, about being treated as a sort of a second class citizens, but the five must go on. But the fight that has been undertaken for many decades so far has achieved a lot of tremendous results. And when we speak of Obama, one could also record the faces of Colin Powell, the General Secretary of State National Security Adviser or even to Condoleezza Rice, same thing a black woman. So, one that example around what you have to start from somewhere, which so many odds against you, but the cause is a noble one, for freedom, for democracy, for the realization of all aspects of human life, we cannot give up and it is, is Myanmar belongs to the Myanmar people, and Myanmar is yours. You cannot have any entity or any group of people to destroy your country, you got to fight for it and overcome. We have to keep on trying and become stronger. And gain the international community as much as possible. authoritarianism, from my point of view, is a short term entity, fascist Hitler, Franco VA, right in Spain, far right in Portugal, Sterling nisam, and so on. Okay, they might rain for a couple of years. But at the end of the day, they were defeated. Because the will of the Russian peoples or the Chinese people or the Cuban people, or the Spanish people, is never sees the will to go on for the betterment of life. For alive under an open society is something very noble indeed. And it is the right for everyone to have that in their position and in the conduct of their everyday life. So please don't give up. Have yourself believe. And I think we in the international community in the ASEAN, maybe a small number. But we'll keep on helping and hope to be able to expand the network of support, and to be your voice in the international community, everywhere and all the time, as much as possible. Thank you.
Host 1:38:03
Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. As regular listeners are aware, we often remind our audience about our nonprofit mission better Burma at the end of the show. Truth be told, fundraising is hard work. And I can personally attest the fact that it's really no fun to keep asking for contributions. Yet the situation on the ground now in Myanmar is so distressing that we continue to do so on behalf of the Burmese people. What is most helpful at this time are recurring donations, which help alleviate both the stress and time involved in fundraising. If you were able to pledge a certain amount per month, our team can plan around having at least a consistent minimum amount to work with them each month. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian immediate missions, aiding those local communities immediate post. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org And donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at a local crafts.com Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spilled a l o k a c r a f t s one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.