Transcript: Episode #200: Battling Oppression with Economic Stability (Bonus Shorts)
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 0:16
Welcome to the Insight Myanmar podcast. Before we get into today's show, I wanted to let you know that we have a lot more written and video content on our website. If you haven't visited it yet, we invite you to take a look at WWW dot insight myanmar.org In addition to complete information about all of our past episodes, there's also a variety of blogs, books and videos to check out and you can also sign up for our regular newsletter. But for now enjoy what follows and remember sharing is caring.
Host 2:12
Welcome to this episode of insight Myanmar Podcast. I'm very pleased to be joined by our guest today, Jagdish Lau or just Jack, Jack, thanks so much for taking the time to chat with us.
Jag 2:24
Well, thank you, it is my pleasure to be on this and kind of share my perspective on on why it's important to support mine, Mr. In many ways that you're doing.
Host 2:36
Yeah, and I look forward to getting into this discussion. And I just want to give some background for our listeners where this idea came from. Last year I was working or maybe it was earlier this year, I was working on a written piece describing why for those who weren't already tapped into Myanmar as foreign allies, or Myanmar nationals. To some it was just a distant conflict half a world away, which didn't really have relevance over one's life. We're always looking at our platform of how can we find angles and stories to break through and show the relevance and the importance. And in describing this with you, jag had messaged me as in this other conversation, we're having that, you know, hey, if you want to have a discussion about why people should care about Myanmar, I have a lot of things I can contribute to that. So here we are welcoming you on and hearing your voice on this topic. So I'm really excited to get into this. Okay, well,
Jag 3:33
I mean, let me kind of go the longer way, let me just kind of talk about who I am, what I'm doing, and why I have been involved. Sure the organization, your organization, as well as other organizations that make a difference in the world. So giving you my background, I was born and educated my undergraduate degree in India. And I came to the United States back in 1965, to go to graduate school, and then eventually, in 1976, on the fourth of July 200th anniversary of United States, I became a naturalized citizen of the United States. So I am an Indian and American, and I carry both in my blood. So I think that someone identified it, that I have one of those with a western mind and Eastern soul. So whenever I think about Myanmar, I think about other Asian countries, I have a personal feel for it. Then, over my 50 years of working career, I had the opportunity to head organizations in Fortune 50 companies in the technology field, and my responsibility where global responsibility which gave me an awful lot of perspective of different parts of the world. What makes each country and each region successful or not so six Last fall, and really think in terms of the global perspective, a lot more than then some people who have not had the opportunity to personally see feel what it is like to be in a country that is not as developed as the Western world. So I have really thought thought about it, that the, in order for the world to be, you know, somewhere, it's acceptable for all of us, you have to have a global perspective, because, you know, it's like a rising water raises all boats. And you just can't think in terms of just the local economy or the local community, and say, well, that will take care of everything else. And maybe I'll give some jobs to other countries. But in order to do that, you really have to be thinking, you have to be thinking globally. And that you're the article that I sent you before, on really thinking about that there is a big word in the corporate world right now called Impact sourcing, and what it is what the corporation say, Hey, I'm going to source my material or services, where it can make an impact on the local community. I think that's a great, great idea. However, in order to really create that environment, I wrote the article that says you have to cultivate that particular region, that particular country, so that when you do want to do work there, they're qualified people who can benefit from it, there's an infrastructure in place that can take advantage of the incoming wealth and incoming value from the corporations, that that's doing it. I think the second part of that is that unless we think globally, the world is at a point where there is an awful lot of instability, and it will create dangerous real stability issues. And we're seeing it in several parts of the world today, where the Oregon over the countries are against each other. And if you're not paying attention, overall, I mean, that's how the wars have started in the past. And I read history a lot. And when I go back and think about the history, and the major wars, and etc, they all have been fought because of the economics and because of the social injustice. And that's what kind of got me involved. And so when you reach to me, and think about Myanmar, or Burma, as I've always called it, it kind of brought to the forefront for me that we also have to think in terms of the how it is that the situation in mind Mr. of Burma, can have an impact not only on its own country, but also in the region. And globally. I'm not going to talk anything politics in here, simply because I'm not qualified for that. But I'm going to talk more in terms of the economic and social responsibility that we all have to make sure that the world is a better place for everyone that's involved. And that includes the, you know, democracy that includes a human rights, that includes that think in terms of how can we improve the lives of the people, it just so happens, that I am involved in other nonprofits. And I'll talk a little bit more about that. So how's that for a little bit of background to get you started?
Host 8:35
That's wonderful. I'm really glad that you went into both your background as well as your interest and motivation in what you're doing professionally. And as well as that bleeds into your personal aspirations and vision in the world, and what you've done, up to this point, I think will give us some context for understanding how you currently see Myanmar.
Jag 8:59
Yeah, and you know, and again, I think when you take a look at more broadly, that if you're not paying attention to regions that are suppressed, and I'm thinking in terms of North Korea, we're the country is suppressing the democracy is not paying attention to a social issue. And what we've read about is really, it creates a population and it creates an issue for everybody that's located there. It creates a cycle of protests. And we're seeing that in other countries, where there is the suppression creates the organizations to create protests. Well, that creates another cycle, then there are more protests, which creates responses from the authoritative government who then want to suppress that protest. And not all the times that's done socially or civilly. It's done with with really harshness and And that's what we're seeing in large part of the world. And I think that Myanmar is an example of it. That the, as soon as the protests happens, and protests and reason, because the people are, are suppressed, they are, they don't have the ability to grow, they don't have ability of freedom. And when you don't have that, there is nothing you can do, when you don't have enough food to eat, when you don't have place to live, you don't have education that your children can have, you are seeing that you're not gonna have a future. And that kind of leads to the protests, which unfortunately creates this horrible cycle that we're seeing in countries including mine, Omar, and and to me, that is an issue that we really have to think in terms of what do we have to do in order to create the stability in the country, so that the, the organization, economy and community can benefit from it. We have seen that in the countries were the suppression have occurred economically, and socially. They're falling behind dramatically. And we're seeing it in parts of South Africa. We're seeing in Africa, as we've seen in South America, that the some of those countries have really seen it. And we're seeing the same thing in mine, Omar and and Burma. And then I think about it that, hey, another example is the opposite side of it. And one of the countries that was fairly well suppressed under the USSR laws and rule, but have come back dramatically in terms of its ability to grow. And that's like Romania. Romania has a significant increased in its economy, through its investment information technology, allowing students and people to grow and creating a governmental environment that creates a stability, which allows the corporations and World Organization to say, Hey, I would rather give her to Romania, than to say North Korea or countries that are unstable. And that's where it comes back down to Myanmar. And Burma, that the the issue there is that unless there is an ability to create the stability in the country, have a political environment that encourages growth, and not suppression, we're going to see meinem are falling behind its competition, because again, the world is a competition and really fall behind. I mean, one of the things that I was looking at and was kind of interesting that since you approached me, I've become a lot more interested in understanding mine Mr. And its conditions in order this 10. So United Nations forecasts. And this is one of the interesting things that I've seen that ageing of the population is creating imbalance or workforce throughout the world. I mean, we're seeing that the Western countries, even Japan, China, are seeing working age population declining, while the younger, fewer and younger people come into the workforce. So one of the United Nations forecasts I was reading which really got me interested in it is that they forecasted that the it today. Myanmar is a seventh largest for working age population in the world, which means that they have enough people that can do work. However, Myanmar will be second by 2050. So by 2050, there'll be more working age people in mind, Myanmar all the rest of the world except one country, this is a problem. But it's also an opportunity. The problem in the sense that unless that working age population is fully prepared to compete on a global basis. And that's what comes back to my impact cultivation, unless that community that working age is is fully developed to provide the services and the provide manufacturing provide the what the world needs, they're going to fall behind economically dramatically. And in order to do that, first thing you're gonna need is a stable environment where the working age population have the stability and economic wherewithal and political support to really get themselves growing and becomes a somewhat acceptable in the world for their school, as I mentioned that I'm involved in one of the nonprofit is called wells mountain initiative. We also run initiative.org, we provide scholarships to students in Asia and Africa, based on their qualifications, and based on what they can contribute to the local economy. So one of the charter for us is that the we provide the scholarship to get the graduate undergraduate degree, then you provide them a grant to set up a community based service in which they have now gotten to a degree in absolutely pleased to tell you that the and I'm under board, also one of the evaluators of the applications, and when I do that, it's across the world. And we have about 70 scholarships, and we get 1500 applications. So it's never a question of trying to pinpoint a certain country or etc. So it's all completely based on the merit, and completely based on what they have contributed already, to the community. And we're committed to do in the future. I'm pleased to tell you that in our new announcement that just happened last week, of the 70 scholars, we do have another scholar from mine, Omar, who is getting her undergraduate degree in social science and humanities. I'm sincerely hoping and looking at her application, her commitment is to develop the community and provide humanity and social science services to the families that need it in her community. Then I said she'd let me take a look at in the past. So this is about 10 year old organization, we have three other students who have been scholars of W AMI, and are currently engaged in providing services to organizations and community where they live. So it to me, that's what makes the difference that we all of us have to think in terms of and by the way, all those scholarship funds are raised in the US. So we raise the funds here, provide them to the community and to the countries with a key restriction that they have to study locally. And they have to then remain locally to provide and offer their services. So I'm practicing what I'm preaching here, basically saying that we all have to think in terms of that global impact only happens one student, one person at a time. But that has to mean that we have to pay attention to it. And we have to think in terms of what can we do to make a difference in that one person.
Host 17:36
It's wonderful to hear about all that you've been doing to know some more background of your, your organization and how you've been engaging in issues. Trying to, as Gandhi famously said, to make the change to be the change that you want to see in the world. And you've also mentioned that since we've been connected, and I should mention this through our mutual friend, Kenton Claymore, who was a historian and was also a guest on this podcast before that, you've been paying more attention to Burma on to following the ongoing conflict there and seeing what's been going on and understanding its relevance and also its nature of the societal breakdown and the terror that the military has been engaging in. So I'm just curious and in, having looked more at the situation in Myanmar and and bringing in your global perspective of the change that you're trying to create, where are you? Well, first, what have you learned about what's going on there? What has surprised you? And where does this crisis fit into your paradigm, your global paradigm of how both how we're all connected, as well as how we can engage? Because I think that's something that a lot of people are really struggling with, aside from just giving money to a good organization or nonprofit that people do wonder that are away from this conflict? How, what do I do? How do I engage? What is the responsible or ethical thing that I can do? What can I do that can make a difference? Or what should I support?
Jag 19:11
Well, yeah, I mean, first of all, unlike some, I guess, I am very conversant of what's going on in the world. I pay attention to news. My wife happened to be an X. CBS news writer, producer, so both of us are very deeply involved in paying attention to all the news items throughout the globe. So I didn't know and I still know what's going on in mine. Mr. I've seen the migration that have happened and that have affected other countries like Bangladesh and even parts of India during the suppression. So yes, we have I've learned and I paid attention to it. However, unfortunately until you until you practice the forefront for me. There are lots of places in the world Are there is in conflict, lots of places in the world that really require all of us paying attention, so that the world doesn't blow apart at some point in time. And whatever the unstability instability that's happening in one country doesn't spread to the next country and beyond. And that's the concern that the, what we're seeing is that the last thing you want to have happen is the suppression. Suppressive Government encourages the next oppressive government to come and take it over and make it even more. So. I mean, we saw that happen after the World War Two with USSR, that the Russia then took the advantage of and really took over the several countries, simply because it was a suppressive sets of regions, and they were the bigger they are in their case, are bigger dogs who can move over. So the concern then would be that we'll be in a situation where the, instead of getting rid of the suppressive government, instead of get rid of the, the oppressive environment, we're going to encourage it and have more of them come closer to you, and make it even worse. Which goes back to my original point, that what that's going to do is create the instability, instability in the world that we can't live with, because our period of time that's going to lead to the next war, that may lead to something that's going to create economic hardship all the way through some of the other things I was looking at, as the IMF data. IMF data is saying the minor US GDP is lower than half the Asian countries. So at some point in time, that means that it's not producing the income is not producing the sources of income, not only for the government, but also for the people, which is going to, again, is back to my whole cycle thing, that that's going to create you in a bigger cycle of suppression, bigger cycle of protests, bigger sector law for killing, migration, forced migration, and JAYLEE. And that's not the way to really change the environment. And that's why, to me, it's important that we to think in terms of that, what's that going to happen? Going forward? So yes, I am paying more attention to mine, Omar, from that perspective, that is it going? Is this going to be another North Korea is it going to be another country where the suppression will take or whether it's a night, Nigeria now or, or Venezuela, there are countries that are facing that situation. And we're seeing that the those countries have inflation that's unbearable, people are hungry. And that's not the way to grow the GDP. That's not the way to be an a country that is stable enough to invite other companies and other countries to begin investment. One of the things I was trying to look for is the foreign investments in Myanmar, as compared to the other countries, it's significantly low. And it has basically stopped. And mainly because the investment firms and investment companies look at it as an in stable, unstable environment, where they're not sure what the next step is going to be. And just like what's happened in North Korea, nowadays, even Russia, where the foreign investments are stopping simply because they're afraid that the government will step in and take over whatever the investment they made to their benefit, which may not be benefiting the people and the community and the economy.
Host 23:58
Thank you for that. Thank you for putting Myanmar in the context of how you've engaged in other places. And through following the news and the support you've provided through the nonprofit foundation that you've set up. Looking at me and more specifically, you know, it's a really tricky, messy, complicated situation that's going back through decades and generations of conflict and of ethnic minority strife and now a very brutal military, it's backed by China and Russia, and is engaging in atrocities every day that we're reading about against their civilian population. So in regards to how complicated this current situation is, as just people that are living their lives like us like listeners in possibly somewhat stable countries, elsewhere stable societies relatively Why is Myanmar specifically why is this something that I should attract concern and attention from other parties in the world that might not necessarily be inclined to be following it and be up to date on it. So
Jag 25:10
I think that's a very good point. And if I can keep my own example off it, that really until you had approached me, I knew about mine, I just had not studied the impact of what's happening there, on the people on the community, and on eventually on the economy, because don't forget, I'm a business person. And I think in terms of the business, and I think in terms of the economics a lot more than I should, personal liberty, and but I do, I do think in that term, however, I think in terms of that any suppressive region is going to create a longer term issue for that region. And as I said, it'll spread as you said, that the China and Russia and others are going to see the weakness and eventually, like the USSR, did, they will say, hey, we'll take it over, in which case see that suppression in which case that that control is going to be worse than it is today. Secondly, I think that the we think in terms of the I mean, go back going back to the history of Burma, and its economic conditions way back, that's all gone away now. And so what has happened is all those weighted resources. So what can people do? Just just like I have learned more about it simply because not that it's another conflict zone? But in terms of what are what is its impact on my fellow human beings? What's the impact of that? Even thinking in terms of business terms? Longer term? How's it going to impact the world economy, because when the working age people are needed to work in the services or in the manufacturing industry, and when Mr. A second, but your 2050 and are not prepared to step up? It's going to impact everyone. And I think that what we have to do is lot more people have to broaden their thinking beyond what's their problem. And I don't have to worry about it. Because it's not here. Well, it will be here, at some point in time, it may not be in my generation, it may be in my kids generation or my grandkids generation. So by not paying attention, all we're doing is really pushing that problem forward. Without any offering solutions. I think any suppressive government, any suppressive area, is not going to help that particular country, that particular region, to survive in a competitive business in a competitive economic world. And that's going to create burden on everyone. I think we've seen that happen out of Africa with all of those people that are trying to migrate, or in South America trying to migrate to improve their lives, we're going to see that whole lot more, we did see that happen in mine, Omar, with the suppression that occurred. So it's going to become a problem for the other countries and other economy. Which means that unless we go and think at the root of the issue, which is the economy, which is the suppression of the rights, which is the prevention of liberty, and democracy, that's just going to create a continuing problem, not only for that country, in case, this miner, but also in adjoining countries and then eventually the world.
Host 29:05
As a businessman, and not just a businessman, but and a businessman who is concerned with ethics and equity and other issues that we find in a global context. I want to ask about the question of sanctions and sanctions has been something that has has really divided the international community in terms of whether and how much and to what extent and what kinds of sanctions and at what time should be placed on the regime in Myanmar, and it was that there were from 1988 through the atrocities up to the transition period in 2000 10s. There were generally some form of sanctions sometimes more severe, depending on the administration and the recent atrocity that the regime committed sometimes lessening a bit for this or that reason. But during the transition period, sanctions were removed entirely in that time and the The argument that was being engaged in that moment was is it better to have sanctions which would still allow some carrot and stick with the with the wasn't the regime at that point it was a transitioning democratic government, which wasn't purely democratic elements of the regime were also there. And there were certainly bad things happening at that time in terms of the natural resources and ethnic minorities. So the question was, should we keep the sanctions on as a way to still kind of moderate and monitor what's happening in or should we remove them with the aspiration, that the removal of sanctions will propel society forward and certain kinds of civil society and an economic ways creating opportunities, that will create a greater force in terms of the openness of society and pushing it forward than we are able to control by sanctions that that was that was the other argument, whereas the argument that was wanting to keep the sanctions on was fearing that there was still great inequity and inequality and even persecution that was still happening, and those sanctions needed to be in place for that?
Jag 31:18
Well, first of all, I'm not a politician. And this is probably a better question for a captain climber to answer than me. So my answer is going to be not based on any political implications is just strictly based on, as I said, my business background and my personal opinion of them. It's kind of interesting that I am a believer that you have to have both carrot and stick sanctions or sticks. I've not seen not heard about not yet of what character they're there that can help alleviate the burden, alleviate the pain that the sanctions bring. It's sort of a you know, in one of my lectures, where we talk about the business aspects of the contracts, and etc. One of the things I've always said that I'm absolutely against penalty clauses in contracts, people say, why not? What if they don't perform? I said, you know, my comment always been that a penalty creates an opportunity for the other party to make an economic decision. And the great example I always give is that when you give penalty to a kid and say, Hey, you're not gonna get your allowance, if you don't do this, kid's gonna say, Okay, I want to do this, and what the heck for one week, I will get an allowance. So they're going to make an economic decision based on the sanction. We're seeing that happening in Russia right now that Russia now is made, taking over some of the investments that foreign countries are made, companies are made, because they're sanctions. So sanctions do work up to a point, but then you need the carrots on the other side, that can allow them to lessen that economic comparison of sanctions versus what I'm doing continue doing. So if you're going to have sanctions, what's what's the carrot? What are we doing in order to encourage the the ruling parties encourage the government to do something that allows them to grow the economy to grow the independence grow to the level of democracy, we can't have all of democracy anyway. But what encouraged that, rather than having just the sanctions, that is going to be looked at penalty, and it's going to create a negative environment towards you in the future? And next time, when you want to go do something on next day, you want to encourage something? They're gonna say, Well, yeah, you're the ones that gave me all the sanctions. So I'm personally of the opinion that sanctions do work only up to a point, but it only work effectively with our carrots associated with it.
Host 34:14
Right, thanks for that. Looking now at how Myanmar in the crisis there is affecting neighboring countries. I want to go right next door, and this is something close to home for you with India. In what ways are you seeing what's going on in Myanmar relevant, particularly for India? And what are your thoughts on how India should be engaging at this time?
Jag 34:37
Unfortunately, I've left in a long time ago. So I really can't speak for India now, as effectively despite my Indian blood runs just as red as when American blood does. I think that the issue is that the day have accepted an economic burden of the refugees Just like any other countries that's happening in Europe, with the African refugees, or a period of time, that's going to create issues, or a period of time, that's going to create economic challenges in the local economy and the local areas, which is going to create a negative feeling towards the country and not the people that have migrated not against the forces that made that happen. And to me, that's a longer term effect, the long term effect is going to be that Bangladesh and India are going to say, gee, we can handle all these refugees, we're going to send them back, or we're not going to treat them as they should be treated, and heck with it, and we're not going to deal with it. And that's just not going to help change the situation that created the refugee environment in the first place.
Host 35:52
Right in referencing how you've been in America for some time, and so you're the although you come from India, you're you're you're not obviously not there now and not. And so asking about India's policy might not be something that you're, you're directly engaged with there. But I'm curious if in talking to like family members or friends that are back there, if the Myanmar conflict has been on their radar at all?
Jag 36:24
Yeah, I have kind of asked a couple of people that question. And it's the same issue, as you see here in the US. It's too far away. It's on the radar simply because there are other issues, other problems, or there are other countries with a serious, more serious issue at the moment, you know, the Russia's invasion of Ukraine. There are other issues that rise to the top. And as a result, oh, well, it's a small country. And yeah, it's the same issue, as you see in some of the other African countries. So maybe at some point in time, we'll do something about it. Right now, I'm worried about my next paycheck, I'm worried more about inflation, I'm worried about the recession coming, thinking locally, or if you're in India, thinking in terms of the my religious independence, you know, go being going by a Hindu majority. So those are the don't forget, at the end of the day, the the old reframe principle comes into play, I always use that word, very effectively, what's in it for me, with him? And all of us think in terms of wisdom? And if it's not impacting me now, or in the near future, I'm gonna stick it in the back of my mind. I think that's that's what we're seeing a lot of places.
Host 37:50
Yeah, I think so as well, I'm glad you brought that up. And this leads to really one of the main objectives of our platform of our nonprofit of the work that we do have the conversations that we have, is to look for that what's in it for me, and to be able to in being able to inform and engage people through the kinds of conversations we have on this platform, to be able to provide certain angles and perspectives that will bring them will break through and bring someone in to care or engage about the conflict in a certain way that that they might not have before, and to find that way to make this relevant and connect. And so I guess my question is with, with what's going on with Myanmar, with the nature of the conflict today? How do you think we can do that? How do you think that this is something that feels very far away, even for people in India, as you mentioned, that are just next door that have a border and have things going on there with refugees flowing in, it's still not prescient and irrelevant directly to their life. And so to say nothing about people that are literally a world away. So what do you think can be done to make this issue relevant and of concern? And to answer this question, what's in it for me? For many people? That might not be totally obvious?
Jag 39:12
I think what you're doing is exactly what is necessary, which is to have an inside man mr. Which we need to have podcasts. We you need to have publications. We need to have the local groups get familiar with the issue. Because, again, as I said, the challenge is that that issue is in the back of the mind for it, but so I think more and more you do to bring it to the forefront. It's going to help. And I'm a great example of it for you. That the yes man mr. I knew something about it. Yes. I was concerned about it at one point in time. Yes, I would have done something about it if I could, until you approached me, in which case I was really interested in learning more about it and contrib but in a way I can, which is both participating in this podcast and contributing the funds you need in working with my W EMI role, to see what I can do to really promote that idea that we all have to think about the countries that need help. And I think you're just doing that and just have to do more often. I'm thankful for you to have approached me I'm thankful to captain to send me some material to read and, and really putting Myanmar ahead on my sinking platform. Simply because try knock things out and I'm thinking about, but it is it is higher, if you will on my platform to be thinking about and I really appreciated the opportunity.
Host 41:04
We want to present a special opportunity for donors who are committed to our show. While we want to stress that we greatly appreciate donations of any size, larger donations, of course, are particularly helpful. For that reason we're encouraging donors with means to consider sponsoring a full episode for a one time donation of $350 or more. Donations in this category can include a dedication if you'd like to a person or organization and as well as a quotation or expression, or your generous donation can be anonymous as well, the choice is yours. In either case, it would give you the satisfaction of knowing that you enabled at least one more episode to be produced for the benefit of the people of Myanmar, who have suffered so much at the hands of the military. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. And the donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and cashapp. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's aloka crafts spelled a l o k a c r a f t s one word aloka crafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.