Transcript: Episode #195: Dancing in Duality
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Host 0:36
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Host 2:03
And we're happy to check in with Natalie meditator from the US this interview for insight Myanmar podcast and hear a bit about her story and background and interest in spirituality and meditation and what brought her to Myanmar and what she held with her after that trip. So Natalie, thanks for taking the time to connect with us and tell us a bit about your journey.
Natalie 2:25
Oh, sure. My pleasure. Yeah. So
Host 2:28
to start with, just give us a bit of a background on you where, where you came from growing up whatever details are, are pertinent or interesting for your journey and set us off knowing a bit about about you and your background before we get to what initially drove you an interest in meditation and spirituality?
Natalie 2:46
Sure, yeah. I'm originally from Los Angeles. I grew up in Venice, California. So I grew up not far from the beach, and a pretty quirky town was quirky back then. And I lived there until I was about 17 years old. And probably I would say, around that time around high school kind of is when I started getting interested in in some Eastern practices started studying the Vedas and studying yoga. And yeah, I left LA when I was a teenager, moved around quite a bit, did quite a bit of traveling, and eventually landed in the Bay Area in my very early 20s. And have been a resident of the Bay Area on and off for about 23 years, something like that. 42 now I live in currently living in Berkeley, California. So yeah. A little bit of background.
Host 3:52
Yeah, great. I'm also from Northern and Southern California. So not not there now. But but some my hometown, my, where my family's from. So definitely very familiar in, in those places. And so, so yeah, so that's a big jump from 17 to 42. So from of those years, fill us in on the what's what's of interest, maybe the snapshot, the snapshot or highlights or the summary or whatever. Whatever gives us a sense for who you were, as you started to develop that spiritual interest so we can ground that something and the reality of of your life and what you were doing at the time.
Natalie 4:32
Sure. Yeah. Who I was at that time. I was really confused. I had a very hard time when I was young. I grew up in pretty challenging conditions at home and my family had really loving parents who had just a hard time it was just a hard time when I was growing up grew up in very A very messy divorced home I grew up with just a lot of challenges internally and externally. And so I had a really hard time as a kid and a really hard time as a teenager, developed a lot of defenses had a very hard time in relationships with other people, and really started straddling, I'd say, the world of kind of my spiritual life and interests and also kind of a lot of escapist behaviors from a really young age. So, for example, I discovered yoga when I was in high school, I came in through the doorway of the scriptures, and then into asana practice, and at the same time, started experimenting with drugs, and with smoking weed, and taking psychedelics and all those kinds of things. And that was pretty fanatic of most of my save from my teenage years through my late 20s. And I'm also a recovering alcoholic, I've been sober for a little over 13 years. And so I didn't get sober till I was 29. I started, you know, in these kinds of practices when I was 15. So a long journey in there of straddling, straddling both of those worlds in different ways. So that's a big part of part of my my life and my story, and a lot of trouble integrating a lot of those practices, because of the ways that I was living. While I was while I was trying to really dive in at the same time.
Host 6:38
Right, yeah. And I think it's, it's really valuable, to be honest, and Frank, and as far as one is comfortable and able to discuss that, because I think that there can be, I think, for Westerners that are trying to integrate, what essentially is a practice that, that can fit anywhere, but it's really been rooted in other cultures, it can be confusing to figure out how to bring that in and adapt one's life and patterns and habits to it. And I think there can sometimes be an idealization of, of the kind of serenity that one takes on when incorporating this, and that, especially in this day of like, you know, Glamour, Instagram posts of, you know, perfect, perfect quotes, and sunsets and candles and incense and everything else, that kind of obtuse gates, the messy reality of what of the two steps forward, one step back or one step forward, two steps back, or whatever it is, of actually trying to bring these practices. And so I think, like being acknowledging that, that imperfect nature of trying to trying to have trying to seek out spiritual practice, while also dealing with the messiness of, of life, and patterns, and family and everything else, I think that's just a much more realistic way to have the conversation. So you know, so thanks for starting us out with that. And I guess to follow up with what you shared, like you mentioned, you're kind of straddling both these at the same time, like, did you feel you were you, you were kind of doing doing both patterns, both interests simultaneously? Or was it more like delving into one and then breaking it with the other coming back to refuge with one refuge with one What, what, how exactly were you as far as you're comfortable? And, and in sharing, but how exactly were you? Were you trying to integrate and manage both of these together?
Natalie 8:32
Yeah, I think it looks different over the course of the years. I mean, in having had practices for so long, there have been a lot of shifts and changes and periods of really feeling deeply and consistently engaged, and then periods of not so much. And, you know, I would say, maybe I'll talk a little bit more specifically around AI. So I, I stepped into, you know, I'd say through the Dharma Doros probably so when you think 2000 2005 2006 Sometime around then and started sitting with San Francisco inside and then started doing retreat and at the same time, I got sober and she doesn't nine so there was a period of years in there where word dharma and the past enough practice for becoming really important to me and I also was kind of, you know, sinking more and more into just my own struggles around alcoholism and drug use. And so I guess, maybe part of how it answered that at that time, and I, I sort of laugh about this now, it wasn't funny at the time, but I think it paints the picture pretty well is you know, I would I would go into retreat at the time. And then I come out of retreat. And then within 48 hours, I would have my face and a pile of cocaine, like, that's kind of what it looked like a lot for me, you know. And so in terms of integration, it was like, I'd have these really profound spiritual experiences and insight experiences. And yet, they were not sufficient for me to step out of the kind of lifestyle that I had, or out of the patterns that I had. And that is a really painful, really challenging and really confusing place to be. So in so kind of wanting to hold those of them, but not really being able to integrate the Insight experiences that I was having through the practice, because of just how I was living at the time, and how the Yeah, just, it's just impossible. I mean, at least in my experience, it was impossible. So that's kind of a long answer. It's really challenging.
Host 10:57
Yeah, no, no, I think that's, that's true for more more practitioners than they would let on if they were, you know, for those that are that are honest about some of those struggles. And I think that it can go into retreat, especially when it's this intensive retreat, it's kind of like you're, you're realizing this idealized version of who you can be and who you want to be and who you're striving to be going back. I think for me, I remember leaving some retreats and almost feeling like I had capital to spend feeling like I had, like, done, I had amassed such a good that I can just like how am I going to go out and just kind of have fun with this good, am I going to you know, binge some, some TV forever, or just eat a bunch of junk food or, you know, not get sleep and just do whatever I want. And I think those were some more benign ways of, of, of kind of going back into the worldly, but I think for for men and for Western men, particularly and from a lot of private and trusted conversations I've had, you know, sexuality is something especially for single men on the path, that is just a major struggle of whether that takes the form of pornography or have of whatever, however else of trying to manage just in a, in a western society of raging sexual desire for young men or that are on the path and going to these these retreats, and then and then coming back and not having a partner and trying to figure out you know, where how exactly to express them or suppress them or what form that takes. And so I think I've definitely talked to other male practitioners that might be different for for for females, and of course, it depends on the person. But who've gotten back from from a an intensive retreat and intensive retreat, and then struggle, not just with, you know, binging food, or TV or something like that, but then also just the going into, into whatever form of sexuality or pornography there is. And so I think, again, this is just to say, like, I think these are, these are conversations and realities that I think really do face a lot of meditators, and I think we're all for the better for acknowledging them and, and identifying like, where, where the struggle is on the path and how where the integration comes and the striving to, to better oneself and realize certain spiritual truths, but then also being a part of the society itself, which is more conditional based on you know, what society you live in, but then also the just the inherent desires of what it is to be human in this body.
Natalie 13:35
Yeah, and then and then, you know, just my experience and my understanding of, of alcoholism and addiction, right, and, and what is necessary, for me at least, to be able to treat those things as a real foundation to even be able to practice genuinely and sustainably at all, you know, and that there are a lot of moving parts there. And that the practice in and of itself, and I think this also qualifies for a lot of what you're talking about is, you know, there was this idea, I think I had for a long time that the practice would be enough in that case, is that the practice and, and even Dharma, the teachings all of it was not a treatment for my alcoholism. And, in fact, you know, my, my capacity to really engage in the teachings in a really sort of deepening and sustainable way, really was incredibly limited until I treated the alcoholism in the addiction, and then things really shifted for me. And that might not be everybody's story. You know, it's not everybody's story, but I know that for me that there was there was more in different that was necessary to be able to treat that in order for me to be able to really dive into the practice in a different way.
Host 14:50
Right, and that was 13 years ago. You said that you that?
Natalie 14:53
Yeah, yeah, that was 13 years ago. Yeah, right.
Host 14:57
So So 13 years ago, you you manage To find some way of treating that alcoholism and then getting more serious on the path, can you so can you talk a bit about that transition?
Natalie 15:07
Yeah, sure. It's, it's interesting, because like I said, it's been such a long and winding road with practice, I. So I got sober. And I think I was had sort of a light touch on practice for a while I had moved at the time, I mean, the other piece, you know, that I will add, and this is a big part of just my story. And it's something that I talk about a lot, because it feels important for me is that I was also a sex worker for 14 years. So I danced in strip clubs for 14 years. And 12 of those years were years that I was sober. And most of those years, I was very much engaged in practice. And I And to me, it's such an important thing, because I think that for most people, it sort of boggles the mind that those things can live in the same space. Because the concept that people have, especially, you know, in considering sila, and sexuality and all these other things, right? It's like, how do those two things exist in the same place, and I won't go away and do it, because I would talk about it all day, all the time. But, you know, that was another really big piece for me. And so and I bring it up also, because for the first couple years, I think, when I was sober, and I was dancing, and I think I wasn't quite as engaged in practice, and then I hit a pretty big spiritual bottom, in in my recovery around my third year, and just a really dark night of the soul and ended up really diving back into practice and took about a year and basically, we just kind of dance in the club as much as I needed to to make enough to do retreat and practice. And so which also sounds very odd, right? Like I was working in the spearmint, rhino in Vegas. And then I was spending time in really intensive Silent Retreat and working with a mentor at the time, you know, a Dharma teacher at the time and, and like what did it mean to integrate those two things in a life and so that that year was a little bit over a year, year and a half that I was doing a lot of practice and it was really a transformative time in my life. And the other reason that I also had moved back to Las Vegas is because there's actually Mahasi Sayadaw monastery out there, it's one of the few or perhaps I don't know maybe the only in the States called CHEO monastery, it's right on the outskirts of Vegas and so I was practicing a lot there with a teacher there and it was pretty much myself and a bunch of monks sickly and I was going in here and chanting and and some folks like from from the community, but I was definitely the only you know, white person there Westerner there and just relished that place in that community. And so yeah, definitely Jove back in at that time. And then since then, I'd say I've been pretty engaged, like, on and off, I'd say relatively consistently in different ways in my life, and one of my biggest interests is how to integrate practice into life and, and the complexity of life, including the places that aren't usually considered inviting into the practice, like strip clubs. What does it even mean to practice strip like sila at a strip club? Like, how, how does that even work? Right? And so that, to me, those are the things that are really interesting. It's like, in real life, how do we embody and express and live a commitment to these to these practices and these teachings? And it's, it's messy, and complicated and interesting.
Host 19:07
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that's, I mean, that real life I can't help but bring to mind the real life of surviving and Myanmar right now. And as there's a bloody coup and the question of violence and a place where people are also trying to bring to bring these these high spiritual teachings to a very messy reality, and I'll get to that later. I just wanted to bookmark that because it, it, it that definitely made me made me kind of take note of, of just that conundrum of how do you apply these if these teachings can't be applied to this part of life or this part of life? What is really the use of them? I mean, that's what that's coming down to but I, I find it really interesting that you've spent so many years of your life trying to figure out how you can bring these these these practices that are so important to you and integrate them into a Well, I guess one can call a non conventional lifestyle and, and certainly not conventional when
Natalie 20:04
sorry, say that. Yeah. One could say that,
Host 20:07
certainly, perhaps for meditators. But you know, it's funny, because another thing that came to mind is that I don't know if you know this, but I've heard many stories about strip clubs and brothels in Thailand, where the Thai girls who are all Buddhist will have a day where they bring all the monks in, and they dress appropriately, they serve them appropriately, the monks have no problem coming, because they, they are allowing them to make merit and it's a traditional lay monastic relationship that can boggle the Western mind. But within Buddha's thought, it's, it's not all too unusual. But I want to, I want to, I want to learn more about what you mentioned, bringing these things together and trying to understand how they operate. And and what insights you've learned. I think this is really important and fascinating. But before asking that question, I before asking the question, when we look at being a dancer, or sex worker and practitioner and those two worlds together, just looking only at the world of the dancer slash sex worker, and I think probably there are misconceptions or assumptions or biases or, or whatnot, of people that don't don't know the realities of that, just just that alone before getting into where the two come together. So I'm sure you've had this conversation with many people before of addressing the misunderstandings people might have how, how would you explain this to someone that that didn't really have a bearing of even really knowing what to ask?
Natalie 21:37
I almost intrusive, I'm more specific, much. I mean, there's just so many misconceptions, you know, there's so many things like it's part of my life work is really kind of exposing a lot of that. And so it's hard to sum up. I think, you know, if I were to put it through the lens of even just this conversation, you know, I think being in the body of a woman that has been in the work, and reflecting on what that body means to people, in just to society in general, I think that the the bodies of sex workers become almost like the holders of, of so much shadow for individuals and for the collective. And so there's just in you spoke a moment ago about when men go into retreat, and they come out, and there's all these sorts of sexual energy that gets expressed in these ways and that I can't express it, and I shouldn't express it. So I have to express it, and what does that mean, and all of this judgment, and all of this shame, right? All these things and, and so there's a lot of undone shadow work that really gets projected onto the bodies of the bodies and the beings of sex workers, right. And so with that, all of these kinds of concepts about what it is to be in that work, right, what it means to be expressed in certain kind of a way, what it means to be using one's body in a certain kind of way, which is, you know, considered unclean, or, you know, taboo or all of these different things, and that there's not a lot of space that's made for nuance or complexity in that in the conversation that it did, it challenges people in a way that they're not really comfortable looking at. And I mean, again, there's so much that can be said about that. And, you know, and often it's gendered in the ways that projections have been are gendered. And so women have their ideas or, you know, self identified women or self identified men. And so there's so many different conversations that happen around that and in the conceptions that people have about that work. And I think it's really hard for people, like I get kind of a kick out of, when I share with people that that's the work that I was in for so long, because people just short circuit, they just cannot understand because of how they view me that that would be true. And that's because of the concepts that they have about who's doing a work, that I'm intelligent, and educated and spiritual and have a certain wisdom and a place in my community and all of that I that I work as a therapist, that I've worked with children for a year, you know, that people are like, and that I'm that I'm a practitioner, and people just cannot conceive of that because of their ideas of what it means to be in that in that work. And I think a lot of it, you know, there's a lot to be said about that around unseen unintegrated parts of self. And there are parts of it that are true, right, that there's a lot that happens in that industry. That's really, that there are a lot of ways that people are acting that they choose to act that they choose to work that are really harmful. Really, really harmful. That being said, this could be set of many different professions. It's not reserved to sex workers, right? And then people aren't really talking a lot about all these other lines, right? Do people really love to talk about sex workers and so on? I don't know how much that answers your question, because I think there's just so many misconceptions really. And I think that again, you know, when I part of what I love to how I love to challenge people is just showing up and being open about the fact that that is my story, because I think it really challenges a lot of their ideas.
Host 25:19
Right, so how do you being a person who is you expressed is is emotional and living a holistic life with all these interests, intelligent and, and aware, self aware, all these different qualities, and then being in a profession that, as you mentioned, is, is a profession where you're the darkness is being dumped on you, I can't remember your exact language, but something with the shadow,
Natalie 25:44
but I think people thought it was just an acknowledged, right, these parts of self and then they see it expressed in certain ways and sex workers or certain environments, and that is really challenging for people, it's really confronting, for people.
Host 25:59
Right. And, and being that kind of person as you are very, very sensitive and self aware and such, in a profession where there's this expectation, how were you able to balance that and integrate into, into into being your full self, and yet also dealing with this kind of shadow dumping? Or what one can call it?
Natalie 26:20
I think to be honest with you, I mean, I'm really fortunate in a lot of this is really privilege, you know, I you know, my story is one that's that's steeped in privilege, and that I have had the privilege of being someone who historically has been has been pretty comfortable, right, that I've been that I've lived in conditions where I feel pretty comfortable in my own body and with who I am. And, and, and that, that has really kind of created a foundation where like, I don't really care what people think. You know, what I mean? And again, I just, I cannot say enough times, how much of a privilege, that was not the case for many, if not most people in the world. And, and so for, for me, people can think what they want, and they can project what they want. And it's not. It's never really had much of an effect on me. That's not to say that, it's it, it does affect me in that there are ways that I've chosen to navigate my life that are a response to that. You know, I don't have it shared openly in all environments. And there's a lot to say about that. But in general, that stuff is not mine. And I'm aware of that. It will come up in moments. So I mean, it certainly comes up in moments where you know, and I won't go into a bunch of the details that where there are moments in life where, you know, maybe kind of unacknowledged impacts do surface in certain circumstances. I've been in circumstances where where things have come up, where I do notice that there has been sort of an impact of that over time. But overall, I felt very comfortable in Holding, holding all of these things in this one one body.
Host 28:10
Right. So yeah, so thanks for giving us just a briefer in the context of the occupation. Looking now at what you referenced early on, when you introduced it of taking that that occupation and that livelihood, combined with being a practitioner and the insights of those two together. And you said you spent most of a lifetime thinking about how they come together. So what what would you share about what what you've learned and what you thought about regarding that?
Natalie 28:36
Yeah, I mean, I could say in the context, so I met with, so I had stopped doing that work for quite some time had been really burnt out, and didn't really love how I was feeling in it for a while. And then when I was in graduate school, and looking down the barrel of an $80,000 loan, and just exhausted and I thought, you know, I'll try it again. I went, I went back. And it was, it was a great decision. And at the time, I had a lot of a lot of feelings around, you know, what is this going to look like? And can I do this work with integrity, and I met with a Dharma teacher, that I have a lot of respect for, here in the States and, and had a big conversation about it with her, you know, that, you know, I'm going back into this work and I really want to keep my eyes open here and make sure I'm doing this work with, with integrity, and really embodying the practice, you know, even there, and we had, we know, we talked a lot about it, and then I had a mentor for years, you know, and also in the Dhamma work through working with Spirit Rock and, you know, the conversation was an ongoing conversation of what does it mean to be in integrity, you know, in these spaces where there are so many opportunities to really kind of step off the beam right and a lot of that conversation The show is centered around. Pretty simple, right? Like staying awake. And, you know, like the Buddha talks about, like, you know, if we're if we're causing harm to know that we're causing harm, right, if we're, if we're stepping off the path of we're not in alignment, if we're not in sila, then to just really at least really know it, right to not be ignorant around, where that's happening. And for me, so much of it is really this ongoing commitment to staying awake and sensitive to how I'm choosing to show up and that that place in particular became one of the richest places for investigation, because, again, there's so much opportunity to lie and to steal and to use sexuality in harmful ways, right? All these different things. And, and so, what does it mean to stay really awake to that to commit into recommit to what I call integrity, right? And, and then to really feel the sting of it when I'm not. And that would happen, of course, that would happen, right? Like, I would act in ways that were maybe greedy or manipulative, or dishonest, or whatever it was, you know, it would happen, I'm, you know, it's nice to say it didn't happen all that often. But when I did, it's like, Can I stay really, really present with this and know the suffering in this and, and have that really kind of feed into my commitment going forward. And so so for me, it wasn't like I would go to work and kind of the practice would drop to the side, it was sort of the opposite, was like cranking up the volume on that commitment of, like, it's kind of easy to show up, I mean, not easy, it's relatively simple to show up in like day to day and not like lie and cheat, be greedy, and throw my sexuality around. It's like, not as easy and you know, and so the commitment, and this sort of like re orientation to that commitment had to be really consistent and strong. Over the years. Yeah, and I had, really, overall a pretty great experience around that, you know, overall, not all the time.
Host 32:14
I'm wondering, getting into like, kind of the technical nerdy aspects of practice, you get kind of give a general picture there. But getting a bit more nitty gritty, the practice can focus on so many things, you know, you can focus on the breath, or the abdomen, or the mental concomitance, or the, or arising and passing away, as we know, there's so many different ways of Buddhist practice. And one of the things I've been interested in exploring, and Myanmar is when I talk to people that have gone that have been tortured, that have taken up armed resistance that have been in situations of total devastation and fear and terror, and they've talked about relying on their practice, I'm always very interested to go into the detail of like, well, what what practice were you doing? How did it manifest? What were your insights? What What was the real nitty gritty of it? So I'm curious as you say, you were taking your practice to this livelihood, and and trying to make it holistic, not leaving the door, as you said, what, what, what specific practice or practices were you doing? And what was the results of them in that environment?
Natalie 33:14
Yeah, I love those questions. So for me, and kind of even going back to that conversation that I had had with a teacher, when I went back in for me, so much of the practice is really mindfulness of body. And, and like, what, what does it feel like in my body, and so I can give specific examples like, like, one of the things that came up with her as I was talking, like, sometimes there are circumstances that I would be in at work, and I would know, like I would feel in the body and the sensations in the body, like, this does not feel right, like there's something about this or something in the way that this is happening, that, that I just know, like, I know, and into the body right now is not the person that I'm committed to. Right. And so this sort of attune sensitivity to the to the body is speaking to what it means to be in integrity. And, and that that's a lot. That's most of the time, sort of the compass that I would say that I'm tuning to, when I'm when I'm talking about bringing mindfulness into wherever it is, right. But if I'm talking about the work environment, in particular, and then there's also this other piece around, you know, what does it mean to have a commitment to sila, right, like, what does it mean to have a commitment to, to honesty or what does it mean to have, you know, a commitment to just not it's hard in a club, right, because I'm using my body and sexuality in this particular kind of way to get a particular kind of result and, and so it gets very tricky, and so it's a lot of just a teenager To like, how do I know what's real for me and what's true for me and for me, I would say mostly so much of that work has to do with this mindfulness of of body and being in the body and staying present in the body. And and then you know, I my kind of regular ongoing practices. I mean, you've been in Burma for so long that you know, all of these little nitty gritty details between all the different teachers, you know, that I but it's really pretty simple practice, you know, it's like, mindfulness of breath or body of opening up the foundations of mindfulness, right or opening to mind that all of these things and and that all kind of just comes into play, I would say when I'm when I'm in the workplace, but kind of in the specifics in the moment when I'm at work, really tuning into, to how how these things express themselves in the body. Yeah, and then suffering, right, like, like, knowing what it's like to be in suffering, like knowing what it's like to be in guilt and shame. Right? And what are the what did they talk about the kind of the good shame and put us over there? Like, yeah, you should feel what are the I can't remember the Pali name right now? Oh, man. It's like the sting of shame. Right? Right. Like staying really present to just the, the grossness and the sting of shame. That is like, kind of like an arrow back to getting on the path. Because it hurts. Hurts.
Host 36:31
Right? So you were basically taking like, it sounds like a bio real body awareness. And that that was sounds like was one of the main practices in this environment was taking a real body awareness and a rootedness in bodies. You were going through different going throughout your workday.
Natalie 36:48
Yeah. And I would say even in reflection, right, in reflection on Okay, so my, and I would do this thing, like I didn't, you know, I don't believe in God, but I would you play these prayers on the way to work, I would be driving over the Bay Bridge, and I would do these prayers, you know, may I, you know, Act in, in the service of my commitments to honesty and integrity, and whatever it is, and I've kind of like go through these, you know, on my way to work, does that mean sort of, you know, my own little version, whatever the precepts, you know, kind of my intentions, and then, and then when I'm at work, just kind of like, okay, like, how did how does this feel, you know, does this feel like that? And again, you know, I'm not going to say that it always I'd be on the beam all the time, that would be a lie. You know, but again, it's like this kind of bumper bowling to the center kind of overtime. And in Can I just be with when I, when I'm when I'm not when I'm making mistakes, because I'm not a monastic. Right? It didn't grow up in that culture. We can get into that after or whenever, but it's like, yeah, this is this is a messy kind of life, you know? And yeah, and can I be an invitation for other people that have messy lives and be just as welcome into practice?
Host 38:01
Right, and that kind of goes leads into the thing I was thinking just now was what how did you find your relationship was to the other workers that were there? I imagine you were your your lifestyle and commitments that you had outside? Were probably a bit of an outlier. But at the same time, I'm sure there were there people you worked with that had their own their own values, their own commitments, as they were, that were different, but also very much part of their life. So how did talk a little bit about those relationships and about the people that you worked with? And what what we can learn to know about them?
Natalie 38:36
Oh, my gosh, there's so many so many different kinds of women in the club, and I love them, I love them all. In fact, my whole kind of my current career path is really all oriented in the service of building spaces for folks in the work I work as a therapist and as a coach and I just I want to be around strippers sex worse off. It's so there's just all kinds, right? I mean, it's it is but there is a mixed bag, because it's like, in a way I was an outlier. Yes. And another way, you know, there's all kinds of folks in there. I mean, I remember there was there was one period of time where there was like, five or six yoga teachers that were dancing and there is a woman who was really who was dancing in order to support all this plant medicine work and training that she was doing she went back and forth to Peru all the time. Yeah, there's all there's other folks doing deep spiritual work in this space as other other folks that were engaged in the personal work also but but they knew other kinds of people too and and that's a fun thing or two you know, it's funny like I think about why speech right I mean, in a locker room gets like 80% unwise you know, talking shit and like, it's fine, right? It's like, not sad switches, a lot of fun to be in those phases and just be like, okay, like, this is different. Right? This is not like the conversations that I'm having maybe with practitioners and, and just engaging in a way where there's kind of a light touch with a lot of that. And also knowing that yeah, there are, I would say in many meeting more than not, you know, folks that are working in ways that I don't really, you know, that are engaging in, in ways of working that aren't as comfortable for me. Right? And that that's, and that, that's fine. Like that I am fine with all of that, and everybody working, how they want to work. And even when is in ways that, you know, like, I'm like, Oh, wow, that's, like I couldn't really live with myself tomorrow. But like, again, you know, really and supportive how people want to work. And that doesn't have to really be my my business really, and that, and that I don't know, the conditions that everybody's coming from, right, and that not everyone comes from the same conditions and privileges as me. And so it's really not my place to have any opinions about any of that. And that I just get to stay in my own lane and how I want to be working there. Yeah, yeah.
Host 41:04
Yeah. And looking at the clientele like, I'm sure that's also not not a as as with the workers, they're not a not a blanket, there's, they come in all different sizes and shapes and intentions, but what and also their own their own backgrounds and what they're trying to do with their lives. What What can you say about them?
Natalie 41:23
Yeah, again, there's so many different kinds of people that come in. And I really, it's really interesting how things happen in a club, and the people that we end up with, and what we attract, and what I would notice, I would attract over the years based on who I am and how I work and what other people would attract, I've had so many great experiences with people, and also some not so great ones, you know, but I mean, people come in for all kinds of reasons, but I, you know, I think that the, that the success of clubs, and you know, and just the amount of money that gets spent, you know, like, the, the need for those kinds of places, because of the ways that people are really just the systems that people live in, and the ways that they want and need to see, make those clubs very lucrative and desirable places, right. And there's all kinds of reasons that people come in. And then again, that's a whole other conversation. But, I mean, I think that there's so much that isn't expressed in the, in the world, for people that can be expressed in places like that, in a way that feels very contained and supported and encouraged. And, and sometimes it can feel really great. And sometimes it can feel really dark, you know, and it is a lot of it is it's just it's delusion, or experiences fantasy and delusion, right, like, that's what we're peddling pretty much in there. And, and sort of just satisfying the senses, right? Like all these things that the photos to get, you could do could do could do. Really, right. So there's, there's, you know, it's in, so I'm not going to pretend that that's not the case, right, and understanding sort of a need for that, you know, given the ways that people live the ways that people live in the systems that we live in relationships and kind of fear generating ways that people live a lot. And so there's and then it gets expressed in all kinds of all kinds of different ways, you know, all kinds of different people. And having been sober in those places for so long, you know, I, you know, I would end up in all kinds of situations, of course, but I got to have a lot of really great interactions with people over the years, and a lot around just like input and I do. What is going on here?
Host 44:02
It sounds hearing that it sounds like it's certainly there's the fantasy and delusion and dukkha, as you mentioned, but there also seems to be a kind of exploration of subconscious and a total release of subconscious, that that's not constrained that, in some ways could have some parallels with the act of meditation of of going, going into the dark and scary Of course, with meditation, the goal should be at least in Buddhist meditation, that your your and this was one of my big insights when I started meditating, because before that, it was like drugs and travel experiences and you know, all night this or that and my 20s and then going to meditation was like, Well, this is also an exploration of subconscious and the huge insight I had, which I just had no understanding of prior to that was, oh, this is not just an exploration of subconscious this is this has the goal of liberation that was completely new for me from reading, like, you know, Carlos Castaneda, and Carl Jung and all these others that was it was just really kind of like, wow, the mind is like this. And you know, this is this is what's going on under this and how this is the collective subconscious in this way. And it's like, no, no, no, that's, that's all fine and good, but it's the path towards liberation. So. So referencing back to your experience, I would imagine there's this kind of going beyond the conventional in which meditation does and it sounds like your experience also does, going beyond that, that conventional and how we're supposed to be into into more of venturing into what that subconscious, sometimes dark subconscious is. There could be some parallels in that, but, but certainly meditation is and not just meditation, but the Buddhist path because it's beyond just sitting formal meditation, awareness, mindfulness and all forms is, is with the express goal of coming out of samsara and being in being liberated, liberated, but, but aside from that, I would imagine there could be some crossover of exploration of some subconscious in general.
Natalie 45:58
Interesting, you know, and I, and I, in a lot of ways, it's like, oh, that that feels and sounds really good. And and, you know, in a club, there's, I think there's, there's this piece around, there's just not an awareness, right? It's just kind of like an unwinding, like, a. Sure it's there is this exploration of the unconscious, but not with any. Right and so and so. Yes, yes. And, yeah, there's a need there. Right, without the awareness, necessarily that that's in need. But, yeah, again, a whole other conversation.
Host 46:35
Yeah. And I want to go bring back the meditation part of it, because one of the things that now that I have a better understanding, and hopefully listeners do, as well, of the kind of the context and the psychology of all of it, you referenced at the beginning, wanting to go to Vegas, because this was one of the few Mahasi monasteries that you'd also be able to attend. And one of the questions I've been working in my mind, and as I've been reflecting on that is that and contrasting those two environments. So one environment, of course, is, is built and defined by sexuality and relations between the genders and rules of how they, they they are expected to interact and are actually prohibited according from American law and safety, from interacting. But it's very, it's, it's definitely defined by some of those, those those practices and going into a monastery, it's the complete opposite. It's a it's a completely, or should be a complete desexualized place, even from normal convention, normal standards of of life elsewhere, business or, you know, public, being public or whatever else. A monastery is defined by an a monastery as well defined by being completely desexualized completely segregated as far as possible and prescribed by rules that are 2500 years old, of how not just men and women but lays and monks and especially lay women and monks, how they can interact and not interact very prescribed rules of how things must be offered and how they, how they can converse with each other just to protect that celibacy and the monastic life and so what, what was it like going back and forth between those juxtapositions of of a highly sexualized and highly de sexualized environment?
Natalie 48:23
You know, it's funny, it just never really, it just kind of all fit for me. I mean, I don't know it just never. It never. It never struck me, but I don't know why. I don't know. Some people find that odd. You know, I'm like, Oh, this is what I do. This is my practice. I'm exceptionally comfortable. I mean, I think that's part of it. Right? It was like, Wow, I feel like the places where I feel most at ease and most myself are, in feel kind of most home are in I will say all monastic settings, because it was very different for me in Burma and will probably, you know, I'm sure what they were. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, and I want to also I have, like, just for time to about 20 minutes left, so I want to make sure we get but yeah, just you know, in that state, and maybe because it was in Vegas, too, you know, like there was something about it being in that space. Like they know what what's going on out there. Know what they thought about me or what I was about or anything like that, but like I just always felt most comfortable in. I would say like retreat settings and sort of and monastic settings to some degree. And in strip clubs, like those are the two places that I feel completely comfortable and myself. And so they never really it never really struck me as like, Oh, this is so weird. Or it's just like, Oh, these are both expressions of parts of myself that fit very comfortably in who I am, and don't have to be at odds with one and Enter, and they kind of balance each other out, you know, there was something about these, you know, Vegas is a whole other story, like it's just a shit show in the clubs and stuff, there was like this way that they kind of just balanced each other out for me in a certain kind of a way like I like I needed to be. And we chatted a lot there, you know, in that particular monastery, which I love so much, I haven't had much of that over the years. And there was something very just settling and balancing for me about that. And, and being out there living in Vegas and looked up by the mountains in this very quiet, wide open. You know, once you get off the strip, it's just quiet with my lifestyle is really very steady and quiet other than work. And so it wasn't, there was there was more space around those two things, also holding them.
Host 50:48
That's great. Yeah, so let's get into that. Let's get into that Burma trip. That's where we met or where we connected and helps you find some some places to go. So first, tell us why. What led you as a practitioner to want to go to Burma? What was your plan? Once you got there and bit about that experience?
Natalie 51:03
I just have always been curious. You know, when I started practicing, in back in 2005 2006, I was curious about, you know, a lot a lot of the teachers that I would sit with were through the Spirit Rock teachers Council and had been, you know, from various lineages, you probably know some about them and that world and, and the kind of some of the, the main lineages you know, we're, we're Thai Forest. And so a lot of teachers from that practice the teachers in Thailand, and then also various Burmese teachers. And so I got really curious about, you know, where are these teachings coming from, had been really curious about monastic culture in general? And so in 2007, I went to Thailand and was there for a little bit and Savitri down south, that was my MO and had and at the time was kind of just more curious about Thailand and and then years later started getting curious about oh, you know, what, what would it would I wonder what it's like in Burma, right? There's so many of these teachings come from Burma and just curious about the Motherland a lot of it teachings and so when the opportunity came up to go back to Asia last time around I decided that I would go to Burma for a bit not with a lot of agenda I didn't know if I was gonna go really briefly or if I might stay for a while or if I might stay and sit retreat there you know, was it was so happy to find you and get connected and just get oriented once I got there. And, and then ended up in Skyline for about a week was staying up there and felt like I had just plopped right in the middle of. I mean, it's like surreal being there. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's like wow, talk about being like a Disneyland of monasteries at Barrows. What is this place? And so ended up there. And yeah, had a lot. A lot came up for me when I was there, I had a lot of processing to do when I came home around my experience there. So I mean, well, for one, I want to say that I cannot believe how the good fortune that I had when I arrived there, you know, you had connected me with Alvin. And then I ended up staying, I can't even remember the name of that place where we stayed where Alvin was living where there was a school and Sitagu Sitagu and got plopped right into the arms of these two women. There are these two monastic women who were just like angels. I mean, they just swooped me up, like, three, four days and just took me everywhere, like all monasteries. And like, I just could not. I just, yeah, just the kindness and I just felt like they adopted me. Like was there is this incredible experience? And they both happen to speak English. Like no Mia. She's English and like, how do you both speak English? And you're right here. One of them was three doors down for me, you know, where I was staying. And so it was just wild and but yeah, I felt confronted a lot by I think seeing all the children and just all of these questions that I have about it's just so different. You know, I mean, it's it's hard to put into words I remember when I came back, I had so much sort of internal noise, the struggle that just all of these questions and I was able to sit I don't know if you know, temples. He's a teacher, actually, many years
Host 54:56
later, we're gonna do a podcast next month, actually. So
Natalie 54:59
Oh, That's great. That's he's great. Yeah, he and I, when I got that I called a two teachers now Hebron silver and temple Smith and I call them both. And I was like, We need to talk because I need to work out some of what's going on in all of this. And they both helped me a lot to orient around a lot of what was coming up, especially temple and excited for you guys to talk and just, you know, so I can give one specific moment. I was staying at Sitagu. And I would hear this chanting every night. And one night, I'm gonna go see where this chanting is coming from. And so I walked out just a little ways up the road, and I got to this nun is called the nunnery, the ones with the nuns. And there were a couple of men's up front, and they were like, Oh, come in, you know. And so I went in, and I went upstairs, and the chanting was coming from all these children, who are chanting. And there were maybe like, 40 of them girls, and they were from like, gosh, as young as like, maybe four years old until probably like 17 teen. And I sat in there for, like a while, maybe half an hour or something like that. And I don't know why, but I just started crying. Like, there was something to me that, because I come from, from a different culture was actually kind of painful, and disturbing to me about it, that like these little tiny children, you know, and they're in, you've seen how they chant in the monasteries to you, it's like LA. Where it, it just, it was just so in, in conflict with my concept of children and raising children with attachment and warmth. And, and not that they don't have all those things, right, because I would see all of those things and, and memories, but there was just something about it, where I just felt like, wow, the way this practice lives in me as a Western, you know, self identified white woman having grown up in a city and all that. There's just no comparing it to the way that it lives in the bodies of folks in monastic culture, who have essentially been conditioned in steeped in Dharma, from the time that they that their little brains are even forming, right? And all of these questions I started to have about just humans and relationship and love and attachment and the complications of growing up in attachment and family, right, and how much of my own work involves navigating that mess? And just then just seeing, seeing, and when I say culture, like Bobby's children, I mean, there, it's just drama. That's it. From the very beginning, right, especially in a place like Sudan, where its debts. That's just it. Right. And, yeah, it was just it was I have a lot of I just have a lot coming up around that. And I feel like it would be like a whole other podcast to get into all of it. It was just it really, a lot of the way that I romanticized monastic culture, I think was really challenged as well, when I was there. Very much. Other things that I would see too, or it's just so woven, and other things that I would see around, you know, a lot of what's happening in the conflict there, right, and Suchi, like all of these posters everywhere, and the way that that lived in the culture, and the ways that conversations were happening within Buddhist communities there around what was happening in terms of the conflict was very confronting and confusing for me. Yeah. And Burma in general, is a very challenging, yes. It's very confronting, I think, as well. Go ahead.
Host 59:03
No, I was just saying, you know, it's interesting. I'm talking to the author of a book on Monday called have fun in Burma. And it's the subject of that novel is actually similar to how you're describing it's about in America, a young American. Well, you were so young when you went and it's about a young American who, who goes to Myanmar and ends up volunteering to teach English at a monastery and is is confronted with all her impressions of what she thinks Buddhism is and what monasticism is and just that whole cultural conflict as well as the political crisis at the time playing out and and that's and I think she this this she, the author just does a remarkable job at capturing really understanding the two opposing view viewpoints and where they come and don't come together. But you know what I found in my time,
Natalie 59:48
I love that if you could send it to me, you could send I would love
Host 59:53
to know for sure I recommend it. It's easy to get through. i i Also, it reminds me of my own My own insight after being in Myanmar for some years and realizing that, it seems like we have this extraordinary thing in common, and we do actually. And by we I mean me as a Westerner, and in a traditional Burmese Buddhist society, of Shilla, of the precepts of meditation of the belief and nirvana of the understanding of samsara, all these other things, we have so much commonality. And yet, sometimes I just, I would, it would be hard to find a way to express my spiritual path and understanding and challenges and ambitions or ambitions is the wrong word, but aspirations that, in even with all that, in common, and the the, the insight that I had is that my practice is not so much a rejection of society, but it's definitely it's standing against the shape of what my society is. And it's really standing against the flow to say, I'm going to sit and I'm not going to do this, and I am going to do that. And it's really been an outlier. And many people who choose to do that we talked before the interview about the more conventional checklist of many meditators who come on the path and, you know, involves everything from veganism to tofu to, you know, riding a bicycle to, and a concern for environmentalism. And there's just this, this whole kind of, it doesn't capture everyone, but it certainly is, is, is that segment which leaves the conventional western world to want to find the spirituality. And yet in Myanmar, meditation is the apex, it is the, the the top level top rung of the traditional conservative religious society. And so these activities are the same. But they're, they're, they're capturing and involving a completely different and even opposing segment of society. So it's like, as we have all of this in common, we also have all of this which brought us to this thing in common, which is directly opposed, and that that's not a bad thing. That's that it's opposed. There's, there's some you can certainly learn about yourself and others by coming from different places. But it does have to be acknowledged. It's not like meeting another westerner who came to the path and seeing what diverged and what converged on our experiences. It's really meeting someone like, their, their meditation or supportive meditation is the height of their traditional religious conservative activity. Whereas for me, it's the height of standing up against the flow of a raging Western society. So yeah,
Natalie 1:02:25
yeah, well, it's funny, like, even when I hear you say, the word meditation, right, like meditation cycle, I'm a Buddhist, I meditate, right and out there, you know, being in the monasteries, like I remember, you know, being with Satori the whole time. And she's like, we don't, we don't really meditate. It's just like, our life is practiced like this, this living this monastic life is the expression of Dhamma. Right? And so and even so even kind of in the in the weeds, like in the details, like, wow, this is such a, just the, the embodiment and the expression. And the practice is so different, right? This is just like, this is Adama expressing itself through life. And so, yeah, there were just a lot of things that sort of confronted my concept of what it means to be a practitioner and my understanding of it, and, and then not to get into the whole question around gender, right, this whole piece around, like showing up in a, in a monastery, and I just had to take a picture, you know, back then I was on social media, of course, I had to post it and it was like, no women beyond this, you know, Ontario's, like. You know, it's so it's just, it's like, oh, self, you know, not self, not self, you know, you're in a woman's body. Right. Like, we don't welcome that. Just like, things like that, that are again, you know, just just woven into the culture that were just confronting for me. And, again, you know, a lot, lots lots more to say about all that, I'm sure. But so it was good. You know, it brought up a lot. For me, it challenged a lot for me, it it. I was grateful to have teachers that I become and kind of sort through some of that with when I came back, because I felt just a lot of confusion and waterways, which is great. I love I love leaving.
Host 1:04:20
Because if any of those been resolved, since you've, you've come back and had a chance to process and think about them or if there have been partial answers.
Natalie 1:04:26
Yeah, you know, it really it goes back to this peace around what what is this practice and what it what are these teachings? How are they expressed in the conditions of who I am in this relative, you know, embodied? Lifetime right now, right that I wasn't born into those conditions, but that these teachings have entered the stream of my own experiences. So what does that mean? And what does that look like in my day to day and it doesn't have to look anything like that right? I have to also really respect and honor that that is where these teachings come from. Right, and that it's expressed different in different places through different bodies and different cultures. And you know, and then deep down at the root of it, we're all touching into the same place, I think, at the end of the day, you know, when we have the privilege to be able to catch in touch into that, but that, that, yeah, that this practice is expresses itself differently. In a woman's body in the western urban world than there, and there are many things that I will never understand about that, because there are many things that I will never understand. Because it's, it's so different than my experience. You know, and I just have to be okay with some of that, you know, and that I don't necessarily agree with, I mean, that was the other big thing, right? It's like, Well, I'm not down with a lot of what's happening, and cannot be okay. Right? Can this still be the practice that I'm, that I'm devoted to, even though I don't necessarily agree with and align with that? And I'm okay with that, right. It's like, I'm okay with having that conflict.
Host 1:06:08
Right. Right. And yeah, to close on bringing us to the present terrible, awful reality of what is happened to those places where we've spent time and where you've spent time, you know, we connected last year when I just got the awful news that soldiers had burst into one of the nunneries where I don't know if you stayed but it was definitely where the nuns that were there you were connected to and you visited and probably were served tea and other things, and that that soldiers had burst through there. And in the middle of the night had stormed the walls, they weren't dressed in fatigues. They just started walking around in there with their weapons, barking out questions when the elder nuns of the nunnery tried to find out who they were they were greeted with being assaulted beaten pictures of their bloody robes, which which were then sent to me and videos and audio of of those beatings traumatization of the all the young nuns four or five years old, you know that this was just this I can I can get through this story and telling it without breaking down now because it's happened in the past long enough ago, and I've explained it enough times, I was simply not even able to talk about it without tearing up just the the the imagery of these, these, these men breaking into a a safe environment of of young young girls and an elder nuns watching after them and enacting with this kind of violence, this kind of senseless violence that the regime has become, I don't really know where to go with this. I mean, this is there's no we're not going to understand this in this conversation. There's nothing there's no wise sayings or reflections we can have, that's that's going to make it better. But at the same time, you know, it's something that we we can't shy away from, you know, we have to acknowledge that this is what has become of the country. This is what what is happening that Buddhist nuns and girls are being beaten for no reason by by military and pro military men on suspicion of something and this this Buddhist environment that we knew this welcoming this tremendously welcoming and gracious environment that we were brought into is is now just facing something which we can't begin to imagine and we have to bear witness and acknowledge
Natalie 1:08:31
Yeah, it's terrific. I remember getting that message from you and also breaking down it's just inconceivable and and reaching out yeah to suit akari and getting some of the details from her and it's just inconceivable Yeah, like you said there's no words that could even kind of package it up in a way that feels even closer. Yes, sorry that you have to hear that and see it too.
Host 1:09:01
Yeah, I guess I'm just to make it personal I guess I'm just wondering what How are you holding this in your heart? Knowing knowing this happened and being close to these people and the gifts you were given how you've talked about the all the things in life you've had to process that's what this whole conversation has been? This is this is something beyond anything else, perhaps of of how to process and understand but how did you work just to to sit with that and not shy away? And yet also, you know, we're helpless in some ways. Well
Natalie 1:09:31
honest. Be honest. I mean, I just cried and cried when I got it. And I read the message. It's just I don't I feel it right now. Actually, while we're talking about it, it's just you know, and then and then my mind goes to these places where I kind of will play it out, right? Like I have to kind of play out the whole thing in my mind to really feel it. I don't know if that's just a human thing or what it is right, just imagining just how horrific this scene must have been. And then remembering all these little girls that I spend time with when I was there, and I have all these photos of them and have them laughing and just knowing what happens when attacks like that happen, right, knowing what happens to little girls bodies in these kinds of circumstances and met. Yeah, I don't you know, I still I mean, I don't know what to say about it, right. I mean, there's nothing like, how does one process that except for it's just excruciating, right? It's just, it's just, it's, it's just excruciating. And it's human. Right? And this is what's so painful is that this is what humans This is what happens, this is what humans do. Right?
Host 1:10:45
Yes, and it's
Natalie 1:10:46
and it's crazy to feel so far away, right? That this is happening all the time. And then we live our lives every day, you know, I show up, I live my life I do what I do. And this is what's happening and and there's emitted is, in so many ways, just out of out of my hands. And I just don't understand, honestly, there's some things I'll just never understand. It's like no amount of wisdom will ever will ever feel like enough to be able to pretend to understand that sort of thing.
Host 1:11:14
Yeah, I mean, it's violence, it's cruelty, it's terror. It's fascism, that that was that was the only way I can understand that this is just a fascism that doesn't make sense through humane understandings. And this is a land that has given us some of the noblest and most refined spiritual teachings and yet, is also is also just eating itself up right now. And, you know, something that we we need to embrace the totality of it to know who we are, and where we could stand to, to bear witness and whatever we can from here to know that they're not alone. And, and I know, I'm, without a note, I'm conscious of your time. I know, you have to go soon. And I'm
Natalie 1:11:56
so sorry. Well, I just yeah, in six minutes, I'm actually going to look at a home.
Host 1:12:01
Okay, so I was thinking maybe we can, we can close by by bringing, bringing together this, you know, this, this, this kind of holding and bearing witness of what what has happened and the senselessness of it, but also acknowledging that this is a place and these are people that that have given these very special spiritual gifts that remain with us. And so in closing, thinking about your experience there, and with the people with the practice, and certainly it's not perfect, it's, that's true of any place. And yet, there's also things that that can teach us that we could walk away with. So looking at some of the positive memories, the inspirations, the things that warm you up, when you think about them the big learnings or insights you had what what can you share with us about Buddhist Burma that you you experienced and have taken away with you as a practitioner?
Natalie 1:12:52
Yeah, I'm just I'm just thinking about those two women. And I'm thinking about sort of Korea in particular, because for some reason right now, and justice, most incredibly loving being, you know, I'm thinking about her and all of the little net, she called them little nuns, which I thought was. And just the way that she was like, basically mothering all of that. Theater, nine of them, and I'm just, and I think, because so much of the time when asked to culture. And this is perhaps somewhat gendered, also that can feel very try and flat and like a lack of emotion or tenderness or care, and that this woman was, was everything, but that, you know, that that's what really sits with me is like this expression of, of that life of that culture of Dhamma of monastic life. It's just the most loving, tender, gentle, nurturing, being that was this person. And yeah, I don't I don't know if that answers your question. But that's what's really emerging for right now. The thing that really struck me in what stands out for me was being there.
Host 1:14:11
That's great. That's great. Well, thank you for leaving us with that. And thank you for this this discussion. It's been so, so wonderful and thought provoking. I hope it's been good for you as well.
Natalie 1:14:22
Yeah, thank you and I am looking forward to hearing more of your podcasts and hearing your talk with temple too. Yes.
Host 1:14:44
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