Transcript: Episode #190: Grahame White, Part 1
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Host 0:39
whether one is listening to this in Myanmar or from outside the country, we know it's a very difficult time for those of us who hold the golden land and its people in our hearts. In trying times like these, we can all use a bit more care and compassion in our lives. So on behalf of the team here at insight Myanmar, I would like to say in the traditional way metta as offered, may you be free from physical discomfort. May you be free from mental discomfort. May You not meet dangers or enemies. May you live a peaceful and happy life. And May all beings be free and come out of suffering. And with that, let's move on to the show.
Host 2:18
I'm really pleased to be joined for this episode of insight Myanmar podcast by my good friend Graham white. It's been a long time coming and having this conversation. So Graham from Australia. Thanks so much for making time for this.
Grahame White 2:30
You're welcome, Jeff. It's a pleasure. Yeah.
Host 2:33
Right. Yeah. So I know from hanging out with you, and also our mutual friends, just the path and the trajectory that your spiritual life has taken and who you've studied under where you've gone and want to spend some time exploring that and looking back on an earlier age of when foreign meditators would go to learn the Dhamma very different than the opportunities available today and learning a bit about how that journey was for you. So to learn a bit about that perhaps you can take us at the beginning. Just talk a little bit about your, your family, your environment, how you grew up, and where your first early spiritual inclinations came from. And what you where you first started the practice from there.
Grahame White 3:19
Okay. Yeah. Well, of course, my family here in Australia, had no interest in meditation, or they didn't know anything about Buddhism. And I didn't know as well at that time. But I got caught up in the Vietnam War. In 1966, they started conscription here in Australia. But they weren't very good at in the first couple of months, or the first six months, and so we were able to leave the country. And a couple of friends and I jumped on a boat and went to South Africa, and for to escape from the Vietnam conscription. And there were a whole lot of people at the time that were doing that. And we went to Durban in South Africa. And we wanted to go surfing because we'd I'm a surfer. I like to ride surfboards. And there's that's what we did. And we worked in South Africa and stayed there for about 15 months working and traveling around South Africa. Yeah, which was quite an interesting period, but still no interest in Dharma, of course, just typical Aziz on the road, doing what others do on the road, which is like raging here and raging there and going surfing and working and was felt as big a good time there in South Africa. And then I think 1968 or something we went to We made our way to England and started working there and living in England. And that we used to go down to be a Ritz, which is a surf spot in France. And we would work for some time in England in London, and then we went down to be rich surfing. And one day when I'd come out of the surf there was I was walking past this garbage bin. This is how these things unfold, you know, the, the karmic consequences of cause and effect of things. And I look I was looking at as being not trying to bid on, I saw this book. And it was called Siddhartha, how many people in the old school would know. And so I picked the book up, but didn't really read it at that time. But I took it back to London, and one night, a couple of weeks later, and one night, all my flatmates went out, to go to the pub or do something like that. And I remember, on the second page or something, there was a stanza, breathe in, breathe out, and all will be revealed or something like that. I can't quite remember exactly what it was. So while they were out, and it was very cold winter night, like one bar radiators, you had to put a 10 Penny piece in the radiator to get it to work and things like that. I sat down, feeling a little silly, you know, cross legged and breathe in and breathe out on. And the mind became very bright and luminous. After about five minutes, I said, Oh, this is better than drugs. Because we were in the hippie era that time of course, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so and that was really quite startling. For me, it gave me another perspective. The place that I was working at was a giftware company. And there was a guy there that I was working with. And I told him about that experience. And he said, Oh, look, I've been going to this Thai temple. And in London, now I'd been through, of course, Tyler ended Kathmandu on the way through to England, you know, the overland trip in those days, of course, everything was fantastic. You can go anywhere you wanted without any problems, you know, up through Afghanistan and through Iran, Iraq, Turkey, all the rest of it. So we did that. And he said, there's a Thai temple, I'm taking a Thai temple in London, I'm imagining golden spires and you know, the temple in London. Okay, he said, Why don't you come along, there's a monk there that gives meditation classes. And so I went with him the following week. And it was in a very beautiful old house. It wasn't as I was imagining, something like in being in Bangkok, but it was in an old Edwardian house, a very beautiful house. And I learned later that it was a spiritualist house, that the Thai embassy had taken over. And the monk started giving the classes there on the Wednesday night. And instantly I went in, they had the shrine room was set up as if it was in Thailand, beautiful borders, and, you know, flowers and incense burning. And, you know, I felt really at home as if I'd come home. And we started to do meditation now remembering, I knew nothing about meditation. And he said, we're going to learn Vipassana meditation here. I said, Okay, you know, what's that, you know, and all that. And so it started teaching Vipassana, and he was teaching actually in the MaHA seaside or tradition. But I didn't know there was any tradition
Host 9:24
at that time.
Grahame White 9:26
You know, there was all very unfamiliar to me. And he said, if you're going to come here on a Wednesday night, I want you to when you're in your apartment, you need to practice on a daily basis, and I took this to heart. And even though I was working, you know, I used to have a very small room with a bunch of Australians. And I but I used to do the meditation practice morning and night and he said, I want you to walk for 10 minutes and sit for half Now, and I did that. And then I'd go back and report my experience to him the following Wednesday night. And the practice improved, amazingly. And I stopped going to the pub and I stopped to all the places that I would normally and just started enjoying the meditation practice. And that's how I got into meditation really, and my friend who was with at the time, but those with that took me there in the first place. This was about a year later, I guess. He he said, Well, I'm going to go to Thailand, up to Chiang Mai around Chiang Mai area and ordained as a monk. I said, Oh, that sounds good. You know, a monk, right? I could probably get into that. And, but I couldn't go at the time and he left and went to this department center outside of Chiang Mai. But I went six months later, and ended up in I had an introductory letter from the Thai temple in London to give to the Thai Abbot in Budaya Thai temple and also one for the tyre but in the chain, my personal place. But I got there and it was just the beginning of rainy season wasa season, I think it might have been about 22 or 23. And the abbot at the Thai temple in Bodhgaya. said well, it's too late now, because of wasa studying for you to go to Thailand and become ordained. And so I ordained at the Thai temple in Bodhgaya, that was in July, maybe 1970, something like this. And at that time, of course, there was very little of the pattern are known to foreigners. So the Abbot, I really appreciated him and feel really grateful to him. He passed away many years ago, that is wonderful person. And he organized there was a person, teacher staying at the inn good guy, there was a university there. And the time monks and other monks from around the world would come and do Southeast Asian Studies and all this kind of thing. But there was one Thai teacher, and his name was John Vivekananda. And he was small, just a little over five foot full of energy, very vibrant person. And he would come every Sunday to the Thai temple in Bodhgaya. And he would teach me and he take my interview, and every day I'd meditate for three months. The wasa period, down in the basement underneath shrine room in the Thai temple. And he would come and the practice practice improved and became pretty good. But at that time, there were no foreigners in Bodhgaya which is the place was absolutely beautiful. It was still a village. No fences around, no security around, no buildings around just grass, and you'd walk into the top of the Bodhi tree. Every afternoon, I go to the Bodhi tree and do my puja and meditate at the 3030 tree. And I was lucky enough to actually receive my robes underneath the Bodhi tree. But three months passed the Wassef. And at the end of that three months, there was a Vietnamese monk who is very well known in America and I'm just trying to think of his name and at the moment, I can't remember his name, but he's lives outside of Los Angeles. I think 1000 Buddha temple. I just can't think of his name. Joe would have
Host 14:32
to look that up. A Burmese monk. Anyway.
Grahame White 14:36
No, now he's Vietnamese. Vietnamese monk. Yeah. They made his mark and he was staying at the Thai temple at the time. That he he said one day to me towards the end of towards the end of wasa. He said oh, I've heard of this teachers called Shree go Inca and Then I said, okay, yeah. And he said he's giving a course in Old Delhi, the Ladakh Vihara in Old Delhi. Would you like to come with me? So I asked my Abbot. And he was quite a funny guy says, Oh, you're always wanting to do meditation. Gong Gong retreats, you said, you said What's your hurry many lifetimes?
Very high energy. many lifetimes. Anyway, what was it will come to me until. Anyway. So off we went. And we got the train up to El Daly. And I remember this Vietnamese monk well, was was very strict. Right? So one of the things I remember the most big was going on the train. And 11 o'clock came for us to have meals, but we didn't have any food. we'd forgotten to arrange food or whatever we had done. So we didn't have lunch that day. And I still remember that 70 years later, on that train. Anyway, we got to LA and found the, the duck Vihara. And we did the second ever go into course, with 15 people,
Host 16:33
the second ever so this was the second ever course that Glencoe ever gave. I think the first one he gave, if my memory serves me, right was to his parents, and some of their friends. So this was the second one after he taught his parents.
Grahame White 16:46
I think so yeah, if I remember rightly, as the second one that's quite historic. It's very,
Host 16:51
that's, that's, that's, that's quite a moment. So tell us about that. Tell us?
Grahame White 16:57
Well, I look, when I'm thinking about it, now I can visualize the Ladakh Vihara, it was a Tibetan center. And it was a couple of stories high and built in a very Victorian way in a new shape. And we had the upper floor of one of the wings. Right, and beautiful place with wrought iron fences around, etc, etc. And there was a small meditation hall. And, and then there were rooms and I was in a room being a monk with four other monks, one from Sri Lanka, there was a Tibetan monk who'd be sent who was had been sent by his teacher to do Vipassana, because they considered the person or the Tibetans to be very important in the practices. And there's a couple of retired Indian monks there who have given up the household life. And after the retirement, there was a professor. And then there were maybe 10 or so Westerners that had heard of go anchor. And that's all there was. So we sat in this room for the 10 days, just a small meditation hall. And I think I was sitting, having being a monk your recorded, you know, you had to be at a certain place in the hall. And maybe two or three feet away from go Lanka for 10 days. And, yeah, and it was amazing. It's absolutely amazing. They used to do things a little differently in those days. The courses were given slightly differently. They still did the three days of Anapana. I didn't know. And like this was a different tradition that I had been practicing
Host 19:00
you were doing more Mahasi. And
Grahame White 19:04
yeah, absolutely. And then I said to go introduce a drink. And you have been doing this. He says, Oh, that doesn't matter. You try this. And took me a few days to get up to, from the rising and falling of the abdomen to the in and out breathing in the nostril for sure. Yeah. Yeah, but I do remember and that sitting in front of going to do here was so powerful, of course. No night didn't the practice improved greatly, and it was a wonderful retreat. And if you can imagine what it was like sitting in this small room with 15 people, but I go uncrazy it's quite amazing. Yeah.
Host 19:48
And you went into this really? You went into this really having no idea no idea what the course was going to be like, what the instruction who the man teaching it was you just kind of landed like you had landed in the Thai monastery in England and then through the monkhood in Bodhgaya. This was kind of the next stage on the journey of like, well, let's see what happens. Let's see who this is. Let's see what the experience is, is just kind of going with the flow. It sounds like,
Grahame White 20:14
yeah, it was it was just exactly like that. Because in in the early days, we didn't know that these the different to know the rest of it. Anyway, what happened after that, we went back to bad guy, I'd love to remember that Vietnamese monks name. I think he's still alive and still teaching America, because I just can't think of his name at the moment. We went back to Bodhgaya. And back to the Thai temple. And one day, this very tall American came over to visit. And it was Joseph Goldstein. So he was the first foreigner, aside from the people I'd met on the retreat that I'd seen for months. You know, there was no one there during the rainy season in Bodhgaya. But Joseph had come to stay at the Burmese Vihara. Because he'd heard of Anagarika manildra. Grant really wanted to have this with him. And so he said, when I started to, I got friendly with him, and we became friends and started to meet up, you know, for Chai in the afternoon or something like this, you know? And he said, Why don't you come to the Burmese Bihar and stay similar? Sounds like a good idea. And I asked my Abbot and I said, Look, because my energy was teaching there. It was wonderful at the time, was like being in an ashram. And then a few other Westerners started trickling through. And my ninja Ji would teach you give afternoon talks, and we'd practice with him. So I moved over to the Burmese Vihara. And with Joseph and with a number with about 12 other people that were staying there in his temple. And then what happened then after the deli course, I thought this was very nice. You know, we had about two or three weeks and I can't actually remember the dates. I'm sure there's there'll be there somewhere. But going koji came to Bodhgaya. He wanted to teach a course there apparently, or someone had invited him to teach a course there. And suddenly, would Gaya change from being very small to being very big. Wow. And first course I can't remember.
Host 22:54
So just to pause there for a moment because you went from going being just giving a second course meaning that he wouldn't really have been a known entity by anyone and you landing on it. And then some months later, he comes to both Gaya and it sounds like he already has something of an entourage of following a celebrity and people are descending on it. So that seems if that timeline is short, that seems like a pretty fast rise to a claim.
Grahame White 23:23
It did it happened really quickly. And I and I think all the backpackers or spiritual seekers or the hippie contingent that were coming to India at the time, started by word of mouth to hear about him. And he did I think he did the other courses before he kind of good guy, but I can't quite remember the timeline of all that now. And then suddenly, he lands in Bodhgaya at the Burmese Vihara. And there was this massive retreat, everyone came it was like there was no action of vibration. Bringing in the Burmese Abbot at the time, he said up we were sitting in the This must have been around 1971 He did a few courses there. The first one wasn't so big, but the second one was massive. Third one was really big. There are a lot of people there. And so bad guy went from this little ashram type experience for boot for those spiritual seekers to the beginning of a worldwide phenomena.
Host 24:36
That's amazing. And it's it's amazing. You were there for that. You know, it's amazing that you your your familiarity with Bodh Gaya predated Joseph Goldstein and Goenka and everything else that you you came when it was still this dusty place and then in a matter of months or years, you were actually able to firsthand experience the contrast of what happened on When the bursts of global mindfulness movement started under your feet, because
Grahame White 25:05
it was like a tsunami hitting with Gaia not saying that in a negative way, it was wonderful. Oh, wow. Hmm. Suddenly, just lots and lots of people are sure, yeah, really great experience. But I still had in my mind hanging on or attaching to, you know, the quietness of Bodhgaya. And the small community that used to live. There is, one thing I really enjoyed about it. This is before this adult started to change was my energy was living up at the BD Mahabodhi Center, which is not there anymore. I might say, last time I was doing a pilgrimage there, it's gone now just a rubble heap now. But it was this beautiful little ashram. And then in the afternoons, small group would walk up to his place. And he would give the most fantastic Dharma talks in the afternoon. And we'd all be dressed in white quarters. And yeah, except that you're looking the part. And, yeah, that's what I remember most fondly about Bodhgaya was that small group.
Host 26:26
I'm also wondering, so at this time in India, and I should say, even worldwide, there's this new growth in consciousness wanting to search for spirituality, within Theravada Buddhism, but also outside of it, and Tibetan and Zen even outside of Buddhism and Hinduism, and other New Age philosophies. And you've even described yourself going to different within the Theravada canon going to different teachers and different traditions. And yet you describe that when glenkinchie came to bow Gaya that was like this tour de force of a tsunami of this word of mouth spreading. But among this community of which you're a part of backpackers, hippie trail, whatever you want to call it, there. There are many different spiritual traditions and teachers that are that are happening concurrently at that time, and yet, and I'm sure that either of those traditions had their own sense of following their own mini tsunamis in their own way. But what do you think it was that made the Glinka experience stand out in a way that maybe others weren't and made that that sudden rush of reach kind of a peak form of everyone suddenly talking about it and wanting to experience it? Why? Why him in this tradition, and instead of others, what what do you remember about that?
Grahame White 27:41
I will look at that, it's actually quite a difficult question to answer, really. But I feel as though glenkinchie had a, just a presence about him, you know, and from his meditation practice, but also remember that go anchor G had a really strong personality. And he also had the gift of oratory. Why? Because he used to be if you if you knew, or if you've read about, he used to be a Shakespearean actor in Burma. And so his oratory was the area really, absolutely. And so that's he gets he's he could bring the Dharma to people in a very clear and precise fashion. That to me, what I thought about it a little later, I think it was the, his Samadhi it was his practice. He had such a strong practice in his vibration was so powerful, that I think he could just attract, you know, his personality, his voice, the nature of the courses, which were different in those days. What I wanted to mention about that was in the early days, go anchor the anchor courses were somewhat different than they are now. You know, they were a lot more laid back and go Angkor used to come to your room as they do in Burma, teachers in Burma. And he would, he would check you more like, like, how are you going, Graham, you know, and he said, then he will tell you now and so you'd sit with him for a little bit. He said, Can you move your attention here? Move your attention there? You know, so you would you'd have your 10 Minute or 15 minute interview here with him daily on a daily basis. There was quite different there were you know, that was not noble silence the whole way through for the whole day, there were certain periods of noble silence. So it was quite relaxed, but also went on to say it was slack. It wasn't slack at all, it was intense, but relaxed. Right? I thought it was much nicer, actually, to tell you the truth, the way he did, they hang out. But of course, it grew too big. And he's not able to conduct retreats like that anymore. He wasn't able to conduct retreats like that anymore. It was too many people. So I feel very grateful that I had that experience with him. And, and so sometimes that night, even in the early days, you know, go into his room, and he'd want me to read from the Dharma book or something so he can get the precise what I say here, like wording, although coming from Australia, and that was probably not such a good idea. No, I had had those quiet moments with him as well. You know, in those early days, and then all that changed, of course, when crowds came in, coming. Yeah. But it was wonderful. It was a wonderful experience and a wonderful time being there in the early days. Yeah. And he kept coming back here.
Host 31:22
What do you remember from those early interactions when you you had private time with him when it was one on one you because you're, you're basically having a front row seat to this, this spiritual teacher who is on his way of being just a massive presence of a historically changing worldwide movement. And you're having this private audience and series of conversations with him, just as he's starting to formulate how he's going to get this off the ground and those days. And I think it's when we look back. Now, there's a sense of like history, only having taken the path that we've seen, and so not being as curious or interested in the many different possibilities and options that were there at that time, because we just look at what actually happened. But as you're talking to him, and there's no roadmap, there's no clear sense of exactly how this mission is going to take off. And he's he's, I'm sure he's figuring things out as from course, to course and formulate in his mind. So is there anything you remember about some of those conversations that shine a light on who he was in those early days as he was trying to figure out how to be a teacher how to lead lead a movement?
Grahame White 32:30
Yeah, well, in that in those early days, when you had that time with him, there was lucky wasn't a famous teacher, he was a teacher. And so we just had normal reactions. And I found him to be very normal. You know, quite funny. You know, he'd crack some jokes from time to time. And just it was quite a normal conversation between us. You know, nothing, too. You know, he was just a normal human being, you know, which he is, of course, which was, but that's what I found was, and he was likable, sit around, he'd be relaxing you asking questions. So how do you say this? Or, you know, how should I do this or something like that. And we just discuss it and see how things went a bit. I found him to be very, very dedicated. That's what I really liked about him. He was really dedicated, like sometimes he would. One thing just came into my mind. Every now and again, he had offered Donna to the monks in Bodhgaya. And at that time, I was still a monk. And so he would come into the Burmese Vihara on the ground floor, and they'd set it up with all the monks and he'd go through offering food diner. And, you know, the usual requisites to everyone that was there. So, can you imagine, in your mind, and this really made me so humble, he would offer food, you know, and I've been embarrassed. As he was walking along, he said, Sophie Antos. Have you on Tony, offer the food to me, you know, and I'm going, Wow, this is so great. You're offering food and I'm so humbled. That was amazing. And then it Yeah, is really humbled, very dedicated, but very normal to Yeah, that's what I liked about him. You know, yeah, really normal just everyday normal, but powerful. Can I tell you another story about him? Yeah. Keep it going. Are you another story? Okay. We were went up to Dalhousie. I was still doing going to tradition at the time, and I went up to Dalhousie with Joseph and Barry rapping and a few other people in the hotel up in Dalhousie and Melinda G came with him. Because he got fit, he was becoming friendly, very close with Anagarika and Indra, because he was learning from Anagarika, meningioma, the poly, you know, and the theoretical understanding of dharma, because he's hadn't had that education. So manildra, of course, is one of the preem preeminent scholars of the time. So he and I go and get we get together every time is in Buddha, and they discuss Dharma, right. And Glencoe was learning from an energy. So he came up to Dalhousie with going, and it was a big hall, there are a lot of people there, you know, I don't know, 100 150 people in this whole. And that time, I've sat right down the back for some reason, or the normally I'd set up very close, but I sat right down the back. And he came in on the first night. And he stood at the door, this is going koji. And it was like, the Samadhi was so strong. You could feel his vibration rolling over the room, like a tsunami. And then it hit you in, in the winter riding the back of the hall. So strong, so powerful. And I just thought, wow, you know, this is amazing. And everyone, the room went very quiet, very silent. And that was the nature of that of his practice. Right? It's quite something. Sure. So it
Host 36:55
sounds like, up to that point, you have been doing different tradition all in Theravada, Vietnamese, Burmese, Mahasi, Thai different iterations in different places. Mahasi style. And of course, getting to know him and Indra, but when you landed on the second course of glenkinchie, and then going to G came to Bodhgaya. It just had this profound impact, at this time, perhaps the technique as well, but certainly the experience of being around a teacher with that much dedication and wisdom of his own experience and his presence of being able to share. So during those years, Would would you call yourself like a blank a student? Or would perhaps this is this is kind of putting labels on something that maybe was a bit more fluid, but how would you describe your your dedication and your your, your involvement at that time?
Grahame White 37:48
I think in the, I think I was there with him for about three years or so, three or four years, did many, many retreats, you know, all over the place with him. But then it got too big for me. You know, I didn't feel comfortable in the size. And I went back to Bodhgaya. And just talk to an engineer about it. And he said, That's okay, whatever you feel comfortable with. And so I just went back to doing, doing my original practice. And sort of, if you like, I sort of reverted back to the Mahasi technique. And I found that to be really suitable for me. And I liked the way it was. I think it was the crowds that turned me away a little bit. You know, there were two, it was two I didn't that was not what I wanted to do. You know,
Host 38:52
was it just the very, were just Was it just the crowds and the number of people coming? Or did you also find a change, like in the course structure, the teaching the organization?
Grahame White 39:05
Yes, indeed, I think I found that was starting to not be something that I wanted to be involved in route 7576, there was quite a change in the whole structure and how it was presented. And I think it was at that time around that time that I sort of started moving away and going going back to the Mahasi
Host 39:34
which change was that? Do you remember manifestations of that change?
Grahame White 39:38
Ah, yeah, a little bit. I hesitate to I don't want to speak bad badly. But people happy that my people were coming a little bit too fundamental. For my sake, not going to G but the students. And in boot guy of course, though, again, very caught up in, you know, unwholesome aspects of where they could be what they could say, you know, so they wouldn't the students wouldn't wouldn't go to the Mahabodhi temple because they thought it was impure. This kind of thing was coming into where I thought that's ridiculous. He does his 10 day courses in the, in the Mahabodhi. Temple. So there were things like that, that was sneaking into the students. way of being with the practice. And, you know, that wasn't how I viewed things. I mean, I view things that every tradition has its good points and has its disadvantages and advantages. And I love being with all the Tibetans around the Bodhi tree, and I love being with all these people, you know, that was not happening. And so I moved away to some degree from it, or
Host 40:59
I guess, I guess one of the things I'm wondering about that is that if you feel that this kind of fundamentalism, as you put it was not coming from Gonca G, but was something coming from the Western students themselves. Yeah. And yet, there were other spiritual traditions that were also happening where that fundamentalism may not have come into play. There were certainly others where it was, you know, Osho, or some of the non Buddhists gurus, they were coming big time. But where do you do you? Do you have any sense of why if it wasn't coming from the teacher itself? Do you have any sense of why this would manifest within that movement at that time when there were other traditions where it wasn't so much a part of it and to be their worst traditions where they were? So I don't want to single this out? But but you know, some traditions develop this way, and some don't. So why would this have developed in this way? Do you have any sense of that?
Grahame White 41:49
Yeah, I have a slight sense of that, or a sense of that in the fact that there came a time in those middle of the 70s, if you like, where we're going Qg. Here, he used to really put an emphasis on only doing one thing, right, only doing one practice that was really strong, only doing one practice. And in fact, there was a time when our letter went around when people registering, they had to sign that they wouldn't change their practice. And if someone had done like my girlfriend at the time, she was a Mahasi. practitioner, and a very capable practitioner itself. But she wanted to do a go anchor course. And she came and she was questioned about her previous practice, and would she give up that previous practice. And so I was shocked when I was standing at the registration table, and this was going on. And so I think it's come down, also of the change of attitudes started to come down a little bit from going Koji, I don't think he realized what was actually going on. He just wanted to keep the practice pure. He didn't want people to go, I think he's his mind. And his mindset around, it was good. But his students took it out of context. You know, so if you had been practicing any other form of Vipassana, or Tibetan tradition, or whatever, oh, that was not acceptable. You know, and I think that, that, and if you couldn't walk up the street in Bodhgaya, without feeling as though all the people were impure, that's not acceptable to me. You know? Yeah. So anyway,
Host 43:45
it sounds like there was developing a certain kind of attachment to labels and identification, us versus them, or kind of tribal or cultural attitudes. And it's interesting, because if you mentioned many of the students, that your contemporaries at the time that were starting to adapt these and apply them more severely than the more relaxed days, when you were taking courses, of course, many of these have become senior teachers and center managers and have gone on in their own countries to establish that culture to bring in establish that culture. And that that kind of tribal mindset that was picked up there to start becoming shaping perhaps, the way that centers were set up elsewhere as well.
Grahame White 44:30
Indeed, that's what's happened. Yeah. And yeah, indeed, that's exactly what's happened. Yeah. Yeah. And they still have some of the you know, that that mindset, it's still there in a lot of centers. And it's not the mindset that I particularly agree with. And to
Host 44:51
go a bit into your particular background, I seem to remember that your brother followed you on your spiritual journey and became Am I going to meditator alongside you? And how did his development go? And were you the first one to take the course? And did he come after? And then how did his trajectory and after that,
Grahame White 45:10
he came, I forget now, maybe a year or so later, he just came to visit me. I was a monk at the time in Budaya. Then he came to visit me and going, he was giving a course in Bodhgaya. So he decided to do the course with his girlfriend. And I can't remember the years now that's the thing. And but he, then I think he went down to Sri Lanka and did a Mahasi course. But it's interesting when you do meditation courses, it's often the first course you've ever done. Yeah, that's the one that'll stay with you. Like for me, it was Bahasa. So it stayed with me. Right? Even though I did go into G and other things. It was the Mahasi, one that stayed with me with my brother. He started with the Go anchor tradition. And so he did Mr. Mahasi in Sri Lanka. But he came back to the Glencoe tradition. And then over the years, he's very dedicated to going to DJI he ended up being the area manager for Indonesia, didn't teach him many, many retreats, and yet, he was very into it. But he also had the similar feeling to me about the fundamentalism of it. So he would try not to bring that into his into his organization or his arrangements when he was the when he was in Indonesia, yep.
Host 46:48
Right. So even in an official capacity, he was trying to moderate his approach of how, how he was behaving on the Dyess and as a teacher. And yet, even with that kind of moderation, one of the anecdotes I remember from talking to before, is that your brother will not meditate with you. Is that right?
Grahame White 47:08
Oh, that is still there. Yes, she finds meditate with me.
Host 47:15
And what what why is that, can you can you go into that? That's pretty incredible.
Grahame White 47:19
Well, that comes back. Yeah, that comes back to what we were talking about before about this purity of practice. You know, they they think that if you're sitting with someone that's not doing their particular practice that the vibration won't be pure. He was he won't sit with me.
Host 47:43
So he's, is that a personal choice? Or is that a regulation he has to follow?
Grahame White 47:48
I don't know if it's a regulation, I have a feeling it's might be regulation. Actually. I'll ask him that question. To see if it's a wall and regulation.
Host 48:02
Well, it's I really hope that two brothers that found Dhamma together early in life can find a way to meditate together. That's a really beautiful story if they're both doing their practice.
Grahame White 48:14
Yeah, we still get on extremely well, but talk about it now. But then another time, I'll tell you what happened in the aftermath a few years ago with regard to my brother in the organization. attempting a little bit more private, I think, sure. Insane is insane. This, this is just, you know, Mina, I love the Dharma. And I love the connectedness of all Dharma, you know. And I think that's the most important thing is regard to dharma. And I'm happy to go and listen to the Dalai Lama, which I've been to a number of his workshops, because it's doesn't like going, he said, not going to gym. And Indra said to me one time ago, he said, he was practicing in the Mahasi. Center for nine months or something. He was there for some time, in the early days, doing his own practice. And he was very, a very, very good yogi, you know, and achieved high states of insight, no doubt. And then he came back to bad guy and saying, Ah, you know, what have you been doing? Oh, he said, I practiced all this time, you know. And then I went and checked out a few other meditation centers to see what they were doing and did a bit of practice with them, this one and that one, and I said, Isn't that confusing? Because I still had that in my mind. He said, Oh, no, that's not confusing at all, as long as you have the right attitude. And so I feel exactly the same way. You know. I know what I'm doing. And I go and listen to these, the Dalai Lama. Listen to other Thai teachers, and it's all just wonderful Dharma, it doesn't have to mean that, it doesn't mean that you have to better go and do this or better go and do that, as an engineer said, if you're solid in your practice, nothing's gonna disturb you, great. You can go anywhere and do anything, you know.
Host 50:24
Right. So at that point, you then became interested in re engaging with the Mahasi practice that you had initially taken up. So take us back there and talk a bit about what it was like going back into that Mahasi practice and where you were and what you were doing and how that was a further development on your spiritual path at that time,
Grahame White 50:46
I think after I had, you know, not not finished with the go into practice, but finished doing all the retreats, you know, like 10 Day retreats, 20, day retreats, you know, over and over and over again, I started to, as I mentioned, previously, I started to lose interest, because I could see, there were some faults, you know, that didn't suit me coming into the students not necessarily going to Jesus himself, but into the students. And I think I mentioned that around 1975 or 76. That's when that started to happen. And people became very, what would you say? Fundamental in their views, you know, with the Go Inca tradition, and that didn't suit me as well, you know, I thought, Oh, if people are not able to sit at the Bodhi tree, then that's not where I want to be. Because, you know, that's where I received my robes. And I love going to the Bodhi tree, and I'm very open to all the different traditions. You know, so that's when I decided I'm going to start going back into my Mahasi roots again. And I think, you know, I kind of discovered that, once you've done a particular practice your first practice, right, which my first practice was the Mahasi tradition in the Thai temple in London, as I mentioned, and so that always stays with you. Right, right, right. And I remember even when doing the Go anchor practice that the Mahasi technique would come into the practice, if I was having a lot of dukkha Ponyo took evading pain coming into the practice, I would start using, I'd start using mental labeling, and notice the pain, which helped a lot in the practice. And also observing the mental states that were arising as well which, in their glencar practice, you don't do, necessarily directly you may, through the sensations that you're experiencing. But I started to find myself, you know, bringing up this noting all the time, so I said, Oh, you know, to this again. And so I was quite close with Anagarika Mahindra because we'd been there together in the early days in boot guy, you know, just he and I really, you know, Joseph was there as well. And he was a big influence on my spiritual life, if you like. And of course, at that time, and always he was a Mahasi practitioner, even though going to GE out of his kindness looked after him and in the latter days of his life. But the other thing that happened around that time, as well as that a lot of around 7576 I suppose if I remember correctly, a lot of the American started coming and a lot of Europeans that started coming, and they were doing their go into practice and people Joseph Sharon Salzberg, etc. But slowly, there was an interest in going back to the roots of the Mahasi practice, which certainly Joseph Goldstein had practiced himself in the early days. And, and so I started getting back and doing the Mahasi practice. Now, I didn't actually personally go back to Burma at that time, but there was a group of the Americans, including Joseph and Sharon and Jack Kornfield, etc, etc. Who went on a pilgrimage to Burma in I think it was around, I forget now 7778, something like that. 77 Maybe those dates could be wrong. It could have been 76. But the whole group of them went to a pilgrimage in Burma, they went to the Mahasi center and they went around the different sites. And suddenly there was a resurgence in the Mahasi interest through a with some of the meditators at that time, as St. Joseph also was starting to teach more under the guidance of to begin with Anagarika mon Indra. And so he started from coming back into the tradition of Maha seaside or. And so that's how I started getting back into it. I don't think I'd ever actually left it to tell you the truth. It's just that there was a certain time in the period in the 70, early 70s, where the Glencoe tradition was, the more predominant and everyone was doing it. And we're all doing, it was wonderful. I can't say it wasn't wonderful, the practice was very good. learnt a lot from going kanji, that's for sure. helped me greatly. But I was really happy to get back into the Mahasi style again, it suited me better. You know, so, yeah, so that's what I did. But then what happened, then, I came back to Australia. And I think around 6667, that sort of thing. Because we'd been going to India regularly, you know, and staying there for a year and a half since, what 1968 69, that sort of thing. So I had to, you know, I was running out of money, I suppose. Um, so I had to go come back to Australia. And I worked, I worked for three months, and then go back to India again, and stay there and then come back and work for three months, because you could do all that in those days, it was easy to do. Anyway, so I came back to Australia, and there was an interest in the house, the tradition here. And you know, one of the one of the things I really got from the go into tradition. And I think you'll find this with a lot of the old Yogi's was the concept of Dharma service, as you're doing now yourself. You know, people really wanted to volunteer and to give Dharma service. That was a really big thing with going kanji, as you know, wasn't so much with the Mahasi tradition. But it was with the Go Anka, and one of the things I really got from that was Dharma service offering Dharma service. And so I started doing here. A few little group sittings for people in the Mahasi tradition, up in Sydney, especially the various venues up there at the time, some of the Thai places the Chinese places in Sydney, and there was an interest in the practicing Vipassana meditation. So then the my partner at the time, and I decided that we wanted to bring the Mahasi tradition to Australia. Right. Now the Go anchor tradition had just started here, they were renting out a number of camps. And there was a lot of interest in it, but there was no real Mahasi tradition. So having a lot of connections in Burma, which I did, through at the Mahasi center, especially, I wrote to them and said, Would you be able to send one of the teachers here to conduct a 10 day retreat? Or something like that? And through the president at the time, who is a good friend of mine, I knew him well. It's mine was ill, or his name? I can't remember his name off the top of my head. I'd have to give to you that to to you later. But he he wrote back and he said, Yes, that would be really good. We're very happy to be able to do that. And I thought, I said, Okay, that'd be good. So I spoke to a few other friends here and said, look, the Burmese Mahasi Nagahara is willing to send one of the teachers over to Australia. But the first teacher that came here said, Yeah, okay, that's great. So we're getting that settled. But the first teachers that I and my partner at the time invited was Joseph, and Alan Clements. And so we did, and, you know, because Joseph and I had known each other for many, many years. And at that time, he was a sprightly character, able to travel easily. So he came, and he came with Alan Clements, Steve Smith came as well. And we did a retreat at what Buddha Dharma. So in, you know what Buddha Dharma, just outside of Sydney. We don't It's a tie center that was started by an English monk. And a big property about, I don't know, 30 acres, something like this quite a lot big property and they built facilities there. Now we're starting to run. retreats in the Thai tradition are John char tradition. But we're able to rent it. And so Joseph was the first foreign teacher that came. And he taught a 10 day retreats there. So that was the beginning of the of the past summer coming to Australia if you live in the nation. Yeah.
Host 1:00:41
That's interesting. In looking at the connections you were making, at the time in India, and coming to Australia, I want to spend just a moment on some of these characters because you're, you're referencing these names of Moon Indra and Joseph Goldstein, Jack Kornfield, Trent Salzberg, others that are, at that time, were just as you use your words, just young, sprightly, individuals that were, were just becoming interested and engaging others and, and now they're big names, I mean, now is with the growth and establishment of American Buddhism, these kids, they have a certain standing and so I think it's interesting. rockstars Exactly, yeah. To us, not me. But in any case, you know, you you knew these people, as they were not only developing as teachers, but as they were learning the Dhamma as students. And as they were, were beginning to get engaged in the practice understanding things, probably making mistakes, and trial and error and figuring out their own way and their own path. And so, I think is like, just to pause a moment in time and this whole development, just look at some of these characters you were interacting with, at the very beginning of their careers if we want to use that word, and what what kind of insights or or interactions or memories you have of them at this time that you'd be willing to share?
Grahame White 1:02:04
All right. Well, Joseph, of course. I ordained as a monk at the Thai temple in Buddha Gaya. I think I might did I mentioned this before, possibly. And one day, this was not a Saturday, I think 1970 Either that Oh, 71, something like that. 70, I think. And that's, then one day I was at the temple. And this very tall American guy turned up. And he said, I My name is Joseph Goldstein. And I said, Oh, my name is gray and white. And then we started talking. And so I remember him, and he was all dressed in white, and I was dressed in orange. And we thought we looked pretty cool, actually. But there was very little, there wasn't much going on in Bodhgaya. At the time, you know, it's a very small plays just a village. Nothing like it is at the moment, which is unrecognizable from those days. But just when I started to chat, and we'd meet daily for a cup of chai up in the bazaar, or something like that. And we got on extremely well. And so after my initial Wassa, three month period at the Thai temple, and with the influence of Anagarika, manager as well, I remember coming to the the, he said, Why don't you come and stay at the Burmese Vihara? Because there's a lot of Westerners here. And I see a lot of Westerners because there were no Westerners there. Joseph was the only one that I met. And so I'm very grateful to him because he suggested that I come to the Burmese Vihara. And it was absolutely wonderful. It turned out there were about 12 people living there. At the time, Barry lapping a few from the Glencoe tradition. And Maria Monroe, I don't know if you know, Maria Monroe, but she was just a beautiful being another lady from grace, and just a group of people and Melinda came to live there as well. And it was one of the most precious periods of I think our spiritual life is like being in this Vihara or being in this. What do you call that? In the Hindu tradition, the ashram ashram was like being in an ashram. And so we would practice during the day and the ninja would will give Dharma talks at night. And then we'd all go to the temple at night. It was just wonderful. And so I remember Joseph being a standout at that point. You know, he had a presence about him, of course, which you've seen for yourself. There is also this is also a very funny character he has. He said Arthur hadn't been a Dharma teacher would have been a stand up comedian in the Catskills. So I'm saying that and so and they can never get a bed that was big enough for him because he was very pro, this sort of thing. So we all had our ups and downs, their input guide, but we everyone got on extremely well. And then another incident when going because started to come, which was that after the my initial was a period and after my initial training with go Anka and my first course with him, he came to boot Gaya. And I might have mentioned this also, I don't know. But many, many people came to Buddha at that point, you know, suddenly, and I remember very distinctly being on the top of the Vihara, because we're setting it up for the retreat. And looking down, have you been to the Burmese Vihara? in Bodhgaya? Yeah, I have. Yeah. Okay. So, coming through the gate. I was looking down, and suddenly, there was this group of about four or five very tall Western guys, and a couple, a couple of women. And it was random. Come in. Oh, that's Ramdas, who's rammed us. Because he was already quite famous at that time. With him was Sharon. And she was a very petite, you know, lovely looking young girl. And they came and they did the retreat. And so with that group, and so they were part of the retreat that happened at that time. And that's where I initially got to know Cheran was during those days where she stayed there for some time, did a few retreats, etc, etc. But she always had that special glow about her, you know, which I thought was wonderful as well. And that's how I met them. And then there was a whole other group of people at that time also who, especially in the Glencoe tradition, who really moved the Glencoe tradition on because of their dharma service ethic. Berry lapping I can't remember all the names now, but there are a lot of them. And I think they're going to tradition came about more or less from the people in the interest of the people in Bodhgaya. And then, Sharon, either, Sharon, I think Sharon was on that pilgrimage to the Mahasi. Pilgrimage when they went to Burma, the whole group and then went and I didn't go there, because I had to get back to Australia. I didn't do that pilgrimage with them. So that's, that's about all I remember, there's probably lots of incidents, which I don't remember. That's how I started to meet these people was from this small group, ashram type group. Until later, when it grew due to the Go anchor tradition. There was not a lot of interest in boot guard at the time. in Nasik, there was only Anagarika manager and he didn't really teach retreats, you would just go and he was living up at that. He lived in the Burmese Vihara. But he was also living at the an ashram up in, up in closer to the town was again the ashram. And I remember us all in the afternoons when he was living there, we used to go up from the Burmese Vihara. And we'd sit down with him and he would give like Adarsha Dharma talk. Dashawn wonderful, absolutely wonderful. He was really amazing. His mind. Just brilliant. Yeah. And I loved it. Going there every afternoon with Joseph Sharon, and a whole group of people will be the people that it was. So that doesn't really give you a lot on what I remembered because I can't remember no, I'm sorry.
Host 1:09:26
No, no, that's that's, that's great. That's That's really interesting. What are your memories of Mahindra of his personality or relationship or teaching or anything that comes to mind when you conjure him up?
Grahame White 1:09:36
Oh, when I conjure my ninja up, I conjure up this little bird like figure, you know, like wandering around, good guy very friendly. And the thing I really learned from he was such a mind. Absolutely anything you would ask him he would know the answer to it, or his insights that came into his Dharma talk Looks like he would sit there and he'd say, if you're mindful just of the turning of the neck, you can be enlightened. You know, things like that, you know, simple things. We go walking in the market and just seeing him in the market and bartering with all the fruit wallets and the, you know, that whatever, while he was interested in, you know, the merchants there and just say his, his meta, I suppose, but his relationship with them, you know, with all these market people, so he was very ordinary, but totally unordinary as well. That's what I got from him. Yeah, he was just, I liked him very much indeed. You know, no pretenses about him. You know, he could be in the market. Well, so could go into GE, he liked that as well. Same same, you know, he could be the guru sitting on the seed market with his wife and he was just an ordinary person, you know, doing the shopping, bartering with people. And this sort of thing was wonderful to be there with the like both of them at that time.
Host 1:11:14
What was the difference in bartering techniques between going on when Indra
Grahame White 1:11:19
my ninja was more forthright? You know, he would really get into them if he thought they were charging him too much. We're going Gigi was a little more laid back, you know, more patient was right in it. No, no, you can't judge me that there is too much this kind of thing. So he was bright and we go for walks and do all that kind of thing around the village and just it was really nice. Just a nice atmosphere and nice place to be and inspiring people to be with at the time.
Host 1:11:55
It must have you were ever a fly on the wall between a conversation between Glencoe and Moon Indra that must must have been pretty amazing.
Grahame White 1:12:02
Actually, I had been a fly on the wall and go anchor was so respectful of men Indra. Just unbelievable. Because going koji you have to remember he was starting off as well. Yeah, really, and his Dharma knowledge at the time, especially his parley knowledge, etc, etc. It wasn't so strong. So my ninja and he would look, they look fantastic together. Two Buddies if you like, but manildra would treat men Glencoe would treat men engergy like the guru, which he was, and we would learn from him. So they would spend a long time talking about the Dharma and the ninja would teach in Pali and things. So they had a great relationship. And I think that's one of the reasons that in my ninja G's later life, going through, invited him to go to get Puri and made sure that he was comfortable in his later life. I found that actually, somewhat surprising when I first heard that he had left Kolkata and the Bengali community and move to Igatpuri. But, you know, I remember one of the things that came into my mind when I heard this was the gratitude of glenkinchie towards manager, what he given him you know, the knowledge he's in, he was able to, in part, to go in Kanji. And I think he really helped me. Go and kanji and his teaching capacity.
Host 1:13:47
Another incident I'm wondering about during that time is there was a bit of a controversy when Joseph Goldstein started to teach when he was a student under min Indra and Goenka responded to that teaching with I don't quite remember the details of it, but it was it was a bit of it created a bit of a division between what what how the glucose response was to Joseph Goldstein started to teach and maybe seen this as a not so much about Goldstein specifically as my memory serves me right, but more as a potential danger for what that could be an example of other students starting to teach in their own way in their own understanding. And there's something of a division there, what were you around for that and what's your memory of that?
Grahame White 1:14:35
was around for in the beginning of it? Because that's when things started to change. And that's, I think I mentioned this in our last talk together and 776 Something like that. 7576 when this this fundamentalism came in, and there was a fear or not a fear I don't know if that's the right word, but a direction that the students shouldn't mix their practices. So the controversy with Joseph was because he was now thought to mix practices and go he wasn't into that at all. You know, he said you have to take this practice of the Belkin. and pure. Right and that's where the current controversy was, but meningioma ji had given Joseph permission to teach. Right. And that was an important authorization. And also coming back to when one begins one's practice. Right, Justice roots were in the Mahasi. Practice. Yeah, that was where that that's where his heart was also, although he loved the Glencoe practice as well. But he thought that he, I don't know if Joseph thought he was going to combine the two practices. But in that, at that time, there was a fear that people would start combining practices.
Host 1:16:15
Right. And I imagine it's also there's, there's something of, I wonder how much I should say, because I wasn't there if there was something of a, like a branding or legacy or something like that. And I also wonder how that fits into this feeling. As as the years of progressing, it's just that you're you're depicting this kind of image of a bunch of different people coming together in different stages of Dhamma experience and wisdom, but none of them are too far ahead of the others, because it hasn't really mature to develop like we know today. So even like Glencoe and Indra with their heads, they're just a bit above the water of the younger people like you and Joseph and others that are that are learning. And you're in this really dynamic, beautiful spiritual community of different people learning and growing, as you're there and having these amazing conversations and experiences and retreats and everything. And I'm just I'm trying to extrapolate and paint what I'm hearing you say and feel free to, to correct. If, if something's not quite right, but then you reaches a point where and I think this is probably true of any endeavor, like any kind of, you know, a band or a creative group coming together or a community, it just just the growth process of what it's like that it's just kind of inevitable that something is going to happen, some kind of splits, and entrenchment are going to happen as age and an attachment sets in, and then it started this, this kind of relaxed, free flowing, interactive dynamic community, then starts to kind of sit in their trenches a bit more and be a bit more defined. And, and and attached to who they are, what they're what they're about, or what their their background or group is, the group dynamics might set in. So I'm just would you say this is fair? How would you correct that? Because I'm just guessing from what I'm hearing you say?
Grahame White 1:18:11
No, no, I think that's a fair a fair comment on your part as well. I mean, it's always the case, you know, with the older generation, and as, such as going to GE and mn energy, that when the new newbies come along, there's a worry that they will, I'm not going to use the word takeover, but they will change the change the dynamic of what they're trying to achieve. Right, especially with go anchor, because the main going because mission was to drop seeds everywhere. Yeah. And Joseph was a very popular character. Maybe he's felt there was some, you know, competition there, that he was taking students away from the Go Inca tradition. And I think Joseph, of course, being a young, up and coming teacher at the time, he started to get invitations to teach, you know, especially if the first I've found my memory serves me correctly, and this may not be correct. The first one of the first ones that really put him on the world map, if you like, was the Naropa Institute in Boulder. Right. And he was asked to teach there and one of the first that was a huge experience for people, you know, like sort of Boulder was big. And I, I went, I was I was actually came to America and I stayed with Joseph in his apartment while he was teaching at Boulder. And that was then the beginning of him really becoming well known. But it's like anything that comes along in life, the younger generation come along and Take over do things differently than that. Yeah, that's the moment that had happened in Budaya.
Host 1:20:05
It's also interesting because that moment also seems a clear delineation, that you're, you're drawing the lines, clearly that if you if you are to proceed in this tradition, not only can you not mix techniques, which is not, you know, which is goes back to, but can I think it was a bit, they got a bit more rigid in that, but it definitely is not something new they're making that was something that was also important to begin. But what's different is that, if you want to continue in this tradition, you must let go of any aspiration ever be a teacher of any kind you are, you are not, you know, Joseph Goldstein was an example of having to choose between a teacher path and a, I don't want to say a student path because of course go older going cuz students are given all kinds of responsibilities of how they perform and take others and the Dhamma service you mentioned, but in terms of a lamb,
Grahame White 1:20:58
but not in teaching level.
Host 1:21:00
Exactly. Right. Right. Yeah, right. Right. So that really set the clear rules in place, that should you wish to impart the Dhamma in any way or form, you may not continue in this tradition, and that that splint seems to indicate that. Yeah, that's
Grahame White 1:21:18
that's exactly what happened. Yeah, I must say that, from my read my memory, not on justice part. I think that what they wanted to do, Joseph Sharon, or that when they were setting up IMS, they wanted it to be a center for Buddhist practice, for all traditions, an eclectic center, you know, great to you remember that. And that's, and that's really started to falter was
Host 1:21:48
right. And that was a later development and they wanted to align as one. They want to Glencoe as one of the various wise teachers, they wanted to host that respect for him. And Blanca declined, because it was he wanted the separation of those techniques. And that's something that I know well and good and have known about for, for some time and know about the Uber kin. Also, his Uber kins own preference and his own relationship with Mahasi. Say it on wanting to have that separation, understanding that logic. But what's interesting for me about this particular split, and this particular moment, is it's not just a separation of techniques, that's obviously there as well. But it's also getting at something wider, which is authority, which is who, who gets authorized to do different things, who has who's able to carry on the teachings in certain manners. And this was a very clear delineation that because I am not authorizing this, this is now something entirely separate. And it's as mentioned, it's setting forth this dynamic and this understanding that, yes, come and learn the system from us and develop in this organization to take on various levels of responsibility. But you must be in line if you stay here. And if you want to be more dynamic and carry on in a different way, then then you have to leave entirely.
Grahame White 1:23:10
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what happened. And this started to manifest around 7576. Because there were some of the retreats there. They started in a boot guard that they had a letter or a printout and you had to sign this printout that did you would not do other retreat other techniques. But it was that was another interesting thing that kind of there. But look, I'm not trying to be disrespectful here because in all the different traditions even within Burma, you know, there's always splits in groups. Oh, yeah. In the, as you will know, in the Mahasi tradition. You know, the Mahasi tradition the Maga tradition they all think the others inferior to the other one.
Host 1:23:58
Absolutely.
Grahame White 1:24:05
And they don't want to let go the senior teachers don't want to get these young along. They don't have enough experience, you know, they don't know what they're doing. And so I think there might have been that might not have been something also that could we could G might not have thought that Joseph had not developed spiritually enough that could you know, that he was to any to an experienced
Host 1:24:33
Yeah, and definitely same from my side. It's not in no way is this meant to be a specific criticism that that there's something particular about one organization or other conditions, you know, and at the same time, like I think we do need to be honest and direct about it. I think that it's that balance of understanding this is kind of a universal pattern of group formation of spiritual of spiritual organization and leadership and something, we can definitely see patterns across all different kinds of not just Burmese or Theravada, or meditation organizations, but probably religious and spiritual across the board. But we, you know, we should be like we I think it's also important to be able to speak clearly and call and describe what it is I think there's sometimes can be a fear or hesitation and not wanting to say, what is or what are the differences? Or what did happen in this moment, or what decisions were made? And what were the consequences of those decisions. And I think, when we don't, it's just a fine balance between being able to speak honestly, and clearly about certain kinds of facts or opinions and perspectives on those facts. At the same time, not singling out and pretending that, you know, some type of teaching organization is just is whatever is going on there is not within the constructs of the just these universal patterns of, you know, groups and teachers and such.
Grahame White 1:25:58
That's exactly right. Yeah. I mean, from a personal point of view, it'd be wonderful if everyone got on, totally, you know, totally well, with no problems at all, but this, you know, it's a human existence, and there's always going to be problems arising. And then I even know, myself, you know, so for example, when the young younger teachers come through the, to the Buddhist library or something in Sydney, and they're starting to give Dhamma talks, you know, I can, I have to watch my mind going? Well, they don't have, you know, they don't have the experience to be doing, I haven't achieved and I've got to really watch it, you know, and I've got to let go of that, you know, because that's not the attitude to have, one should have an attitude of wanting to help them and to bring them along, and, you know, respect them for what they're doing. Because one of the things lately I've noticed in the law, as we're getting older, a lot of the classically trained teachers are no longer, right, and they're not there anymore. And so the new new generations coming through, and we have to respect them for what they're doing coming through, we may not agree with everything, because we've got our own views, our own opinions, our own experiences. But it's the way things are going to go. You know, I noticed now in Australia, in America, all the new teachers are coming through. And you've just got to accept that that's the way things are. It's like a football team. Suddenly, the stars are God, the old stars are gone, and the newbies are coming through and, you know, it's that's where it's going to happen in the meditation world as well.
Host 1:27:44
Right? And this is kind of jumping ahead this this next question, I want to ask this, and then I want to try to go back to the sequence of bringing Mahasi to Australia. But I think this is an interesting interlude. And I think this also is connecting the same line of thought and logic. And that's, as you're talking about what it takes to be a teacher in different times and different societies and different places. One of the things that come to my mind is what what does it and you talked about being a classical teacher versus a young or modern teacher, there definitely is a combination of being a Dharma teacher of both needing to know the source material you're working with, and the be very well trained. And both the practice and the study of what supposedly you're gonna be teaching as well as your own wisdom and insights. At the same time, you also need to you need to be making it relevant you need to be speaking the language of the people, not just the actual same linguistic words, but the the relevancy the touching upon their their real needs and perspectives and modern life and connecting with them as Glencoe was able to do so beautifully as lady say it it was able to do during his time and Mahasi so what what what do you think you're, you're a meditation students, you're all you've worked with many teachers and you become a teacher yourself? What are your thoughts on what it takes to be a meditation teacher?
Grahame White 1:29:08
What? From a classical perspective, you know, the way I was taught in Burma, was the sidles would say that one has to have it better if the teacher has the expense at least so the partner experience, right? That's like the beginning of being able to teach as far as they're concerned. Right. And all the monks that were all the monks and nuns that were teaching in Burma, not many nuns, but quite a lot of monks were teaching. They all had to have had soda planter experience. Right then they would need from a monk perspective. 20 years of periodic of practice of theoretical training, so they're very strict in Burma about who teachers know that what I was taught by cider kundala and cider a pandita. And cider Pandita would have some hesitation, also, you know that the student at least had to be able to experience the day a ban Jana, you know, to understand impermanence to be able to teach, preferably to be able to have, so to plan or experience, right and know the path quite well. They never, and I think they're also always hesitant about the Western teachers, I noticed that that just could be a Burmese thing. And it could be, just as we were talking before, about not wanting to letting let go of the classical tradition, and seeing these newbies coming in, that could be a part of it as well. So from a classical perspective, from a modern day perspective, I think, if you, if I can say this, I think people really need to have earlier Banyana, you know, arising and passing away knowledge in either their go anchor or the Mahasi, or whatever tradition it is, because the experience is the same. They need to have that knowledge. They need to understand that is that relevant, as well to have poly teaching, you know, Abbe Dharma teaching in the study? Not so much. You know, because I think what's important is teaching is be able to guide people in their practice, you know, so understanding the signs in practice, if you like, so you can help guide, but you need and why Joseph was so powerful. He had a presence about him, and he could bring people along with him. You know, he had a great stories, he was able to use good examples. Well, I noticed that a lot of in the teaching world, a lot of there's a lot of interest now, in the Dharma study, and especially parley study, and going back to the suitors. But a lot of the meditators, they find it really pretty boring, actually. And they like to be they like to have someone who's cares for them. That's really important. There has to be a caring for them. And there has to be someone with experience that knows what the signs are that they're going through. And it not necessarily I don't feel. And in a Mahasi practice, I say this as well, to have a full knowledge of polyamory. Dharma. So that's what I would say. But you need to have a presence and be able to work with people well, and they've got a feel that you care for them. That's the most important thing in, in my mind anyway, that they certainly need to have the meditation experience, at least that level of meditation experience.
Host 1:33:20
Right, yeah, thank thanks for that. So let's go back to your journey back in sequence. And we took this interlude, as we were moving from India to Australia, and you were talking about the establishment of the first Mahasi community, the introduction of the passionate into Australia for what you believe is the first time so talk a bit about what it was like to relocate there to go back to your homeland with this new teaching that you developed in and what it was like to try to transplant this teaching into a new environment that was familiar to you, but not so familiar with the teaching?
Grahame White 1:33:59
Well, I thought it was absolutely wonderful at that, that period of time, which was the early 80s. There was a lot of interest in starting to develop in meditation practices. Certainly in Australia, it was starting to come to the fore. And it started earlier in America, but it was a little later coming to Australia. And so when we would say for example, when we'd run retreats, you know, so that I invited Joseph here to come there. A lot of people came to the retreats, because there wasn't much else around. You know, there was only the going tradition and emasculation, so there was no competition, if you like. So we will do the first retreat. I can't remember how many people there might have been 40 people there. I mean, that was really amazing. And there was a lot of interest in volunteering your dharma service as there is in the Glencoe tradition. Shouldn't as well, at that time, so the courts and the managers and well, I used to manage all of these retreats myself, but you know, there was no problem in getting people to volunteer and there was a real enthusiasm amongst people for practice for doing longer term practice. So, Joseph was the first one, he came a few times the next time he came if I'd have to look all this up, but if I remember now, the next time, Sharon came with him, and then also Carol Wilson came as well. She's another RMS teacher, and they'd all come, I'd pick them up in a van or something, they'd all come and stay in my little house in ostomy, which you've not been to my place, I don't think but it's a small cottage in the bush. And so it was absolutely wonderful. So they came and they started. I shouldn't say this, but Joseph was really scared of snakes and snakes around here. So and at that time, we didn't have sewerage or septic tanks, it was like outdoor donees and like Australian style. And he had to go outside and go to the toilet. And he was always worried about the specs coming. That was lovely, though, because my house is very small, right? It's only a little cottage and everyone a jam into the cottage, and it was just great. And then we rented started renting places down in barrel outside of barrel on the southern highlands, which was a that was a Catholic seminary. But they turned it into a residence for returning missionaries. And these missionaries to make money, they started renting it out. Beautiful, beautiful old Victorian building. Just gorgeous. And we started using that for retreats. So Joseph came and did retreats down there. And it wasn't until about 85. I think it was 85 where the Burmese started first coming. The first first retreat we did was a 20 day retreat with the Burmese teacher. And the President of the Naga ha the Burmese Naga boot assassin Association came and with him as the translator, and we had a lot of people, you know, then once again, about a been 30 or 40 people come for this time, this time. And that was the first retreat. And that was with I'm trying to think who was the first one that came? I think it was Seido lacuna. Who is well known in America, we used to write him, we used to invite him to Hawaii all the time. And I talked about that, that I had tried to get a Burmese teacher that was teaching in Singapore at the time he was residents, but we couldn't get him because he spoke English. But we couldn't, something happened. And I think he died actually. And so like Anna came, and he did the retreat and all we and the other thing about the beginning of the repassing or coming to Australia was the interest from the Burmese people. Because at the time there weren't very many Burmese people here. So I think our association can take credit for bringing the Dharma back for the Bernays. Because I said I have great connections, it was just wonderful. And they would all come they would come and they wouldn't be doing much meditation, but they'd be offering food they'd be they'd be I was just wonderful, you know, picking the cider or taking the side or that for lunch. You're doing lots of nice things. So it was very helpful indeed. Because there are only actually a small number of Burmese at that time in Australia. In the 80s. Now there's five Burmese temples. Were happy to do that change, which is a drain. I loved it because I felt completely at home with the Burmese was my way of giving back to them what they'd given me and Burma.
Host 1:39:42
Yeah, so let's talk about let's talk about that for a moment. Let's talk about Myanmar. And you talk about your first pilgrimage there and the impressions of what that was like and your subsequent trips after and just your experiences and feelings, impressions, influences of what it was like to To be in Myanmar as a country and as a culture to be in Burmese monasteries, and under Burmese teachers, as you were there and then interacting with Burmese community in Australia and India once he left.
Grahame White 1:40:12
The first time I went to Burma was in 1973. When 1973, I think it was, and I went with an American lady. And we went at that time, you could only get a seven day visa, and it was very restrictive. You know, even travel was restrictive. So you come in, it goes straight to the meditation center, they pick you up, and then you would leave, you'd have one day at the end where you could go to Shweta gone or do something like that. So we could only stay for seven days. And at that, that particular time that that's when I first met Maha seaside or himself, he didn't teach us but he would see you at the beginning. And he would see you when you were leaving. And I've got some great stories about that. But go into that another time. But the teacher that we had was Seido Jonica, who became a very well known foreign the ag teacher. Yeah, Chemita Yep, tomato. And he came to Australia on a number of occasions, and did retreats for us as well. So that was really wonderful. He was a fine teacher, that's for sure. So he was the teacher at that time, but you couldn't actually go anywhere at that point. And that was also interesting. And I don't know if this could go in the podcast, but the Burmese community or from the Burmese Vihara, they asked me to take letters for new secret letters from Wow, yeah, that was amazing. So I was like a courier. You know,
Host 1:42:05
it was in those letters.
Grahame White 1:42:05
I don't I do. It wasn't
Host 1:42:10
me to new I suppose I didn't need to know. You never met who knew, I suppose, you
Grahame White 1:42:16
know, I didn't get the chance, they said to demonstrate to come and get the letters. But it was you know, I thought it was absolutely fascinating. And when I looked back, but I'd also a certain amount of trepidation from going to Burma because you know, seven days it was a heavy, a heavy darkness over the place. But it was much more simple. The existence in those days, of course, is much less traffic, much less people. But I found that the people were so welcoming, and so generous and so wonderful, to an appreciative that you would come to Burma loved it, that you would come so they would be their generosity knew no bounds. They helped us a great deal. After as well, we're in the Mahasi center, because that was quite different also in 73 than it is in the present day. So my impressions of Burma was that there was a certain underlying fear. In Burma, you had to be careful, that's for sure. You know, and you'd walk around the streets a little bit when we got the opportunity on the last day or so. And there'd be soldiers with guards standing at various places and, you know, excetera, etc. So you had to be a little bit careful with what you're doing. But still, in all, the thing that was the most impressive was for me, for me, and really embedded it in me, was there solder there faith. For me, you understand this? You've been living in Burma, you know, you go to swear to God, or the meditation center and the faith, that generosity, the, you know, just the interest in the Buddha's teachings was phenomenal. And I loved sitting there. And that's I think that's when I finally got right back into Mahasi tradition, again, was going to the Massey center.
Host 1:44:20
You referenced in passing that you had some profound meetings with Mahasi said I'd love to hear about your impressions and interaction. Well, well,
Grahame White 1:44:27
they weren't actually profound. They were funny, okay. Not not sort of profound here. And the house he lived in this building, just away from the meditation hall. It was amazing like a two storey building. And when I went in there and they showed us around there had a meditation hall that which was which was the nighttime meditation or underneath. Underneath my house is building and you go upstairs and he had a very long walking Hall. Hmm. And he'd spent a lot of time doing walking meditation, he'd walk up and down this hole, you know, it was only maybe about 10 foot wide, something like this. But then, and so I saw him from time to time, you can see him through the window, doing his walking meditation through this hole. But anyway, so when we arrived, we went in this lady and I, and he welcomed us very graciously, and gave us the five precepts, or eight precepts, sorry, eight precepts, and wished us well in our practice, and introduced us to cider Jonica, who was going to be a teacher. And we didn't really see him except when we sometimes when you're going for lunch, he'd be walking around or doing something, right. But on the last day, we went up to his residence, to say goodbye and to take the five precepts with Him. And His room was a little bit dark. But I really wanted to get a photo of him. And so I had, which is unheard of now, an Olympus half frame camera took slides, right. And so I said, very humbly. Seido, would you mind if I take a photo of you? He gave a little smile in a little half smile. He didn't open his mouth and smile, and just a little half smile. And he said, Yes. And he straightened his rose got himself in position and sat cross legged on the floor, looked absolutely perfect, right. And I went to take a photo and it wouldn't go off. It was too dark. And I'm going, what am I going to do now? Right. But I was quite bold Australian, I said, So dodgy? I don't think that photo worked. Would you say to his attendant, do you think Sardo would come outside? And he there was this translation going on into Burmese and Nazism? shook his head said yes. And as he came in, he came into the reception area. Same, same thing straightened his robes looked absolutely perfect as if he was a Buddha sitting underneath the Bodhi tree. The camera wouldn't go. Again, too dark. So I said to the translator, I was determined to get a further, right. So this is not working. There was a balcony outside. There was a door that led to a small balcony. I said, Do you think somebody would mind sitting outside there? So yes, I wouldn't mind him. Happy to do that. So Addy went straight in his robes, went through the whole procedure once again. And I took the photo. And it worked. And I said, thank you very much. And we bowed and etc, etc. And then we left and I got when we got outside. The balcony had been half dark and half sun, where he said himself was in the dark. Everything was sunny around him, but he was dark. So the photo didn't work. After all that effort, it didn't work. I just smiled and said, Well, that's the way it is. But I did have the opportunity. Some years ago in 1979, he came to you came to Bodhgaya. And they'd been doing a tour of America in London at the time he went to IMS. And he came to Bodhgaya. And I was out to spend time with him then and actually act as his copier carrying his bowl. And then he was invited one day, is this a story? I don't know. He were invited down to the Japanese temple one day for lunch or cider was I just went along. And all the other monks that were that were with him there was an entourage that 10 marks. Actually solder a Jonica was on that that trip. And my husband didn't need very much. And so we went down there and he had his ball and they filled his ball up. And he took a few spoonfuls a little bit. And then the attendant came and passed his bowl around so we could eat the food from his bowl. And my initial hesitation was, let's say eating someone's eating food, you know, and I was a little worried about being in India getting food poisoning. But then I said no, it's Matthew Seidel. And so we did we ate from the houses bowl, which and then the If and in the evenings, he would, we'd go up to the Bodhi tree with all the monks in there, I've got, I've got some fabulous photographs of this, just for that time with my half road camera, that pilgrimage when they came to boot guy, I have to show you what day they're really good. And used to go up to the temple at night, and he'd sit inside the main temple. And he'd just sit there. And it was like he wasn't there. You know, it wasn't overawed what body wasn't, you know, too zealous about it all. He just sit there the bow, pick a few bit of dust off his road, and then just walk around slowly and just look at things. And you know, it's amazing. He was quite amazing. So he stayed in but guy for about five or six days or something. So that's my that was what I had the opportunity to have more contact with him at that time. But never on a you know, chatty basis was always very respectful. Carry the ball attendant type? relationship. Yeah,
Host 1:51:14
yeah. Yeah. So it seems in tracking some of these years and your development and your spiritual path, it seems like through the the mid from the start to the mid 80s. There's quite, as often happens at the start of the journey, just quite a bit to explore quite a bit of stories and experiences. And then from the mid 80s, on kind of you get established as a teacher in Australia, you go on to teach in Hawaii, lead pilgrimages in India give give, give the teaching seminars and courses and other countries as well and kind of settle into your role as as moving into the more senior tutorial kind of position to be able to guide others in the experience you had. And that's kind of what you've been doing ever since. Right?
Grahame White 1:52:01
It is. Yeah, that didn't come till somewhat. Like later. You know, I think the 80s and 90s. And even early, what, nearly a year, maybe two towards the end of the 90s. My role was Dharma service, in organizing retreats, are some
Host 1:52:23
more organizing and delivering Oh, yeah. And also
Grahame White 1:52:27
building a meditation center, getting a meditation center going up in Medlow bath in the Blue Mountains quite close to the Gonca. Center. But that's another story. But we had a lot of enthusiasm, then there's no doubt. And all that came, I think from the early from your early days in India and Burma. And you understand, I think a lot of the older generation will understand this Dharma service ethic. But we had many retreats. We did at some point we would we did down in Barrow with cider it on data, we started inviting cider Pandita to come. He decided to come. And there was one time we did a two month retreat, a two month retreat. And Joseph and Sharon Carol Wilson, a lot of the up and coming or the a lot of the established teachers now all kinds of that retreat, with masses with side open data.
Host 1:53:28
That's another character we haven't talked about yet. Talk about your relationship with open data.
Grahame White 1:53:33
God yes, it is. Yeah, this might have to be next week again,
Host 1:53:40
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