Transcript: Episode #188: Picturing a Revolution
Below is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been reviewed by a human editor. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the speaker's actual words. This is especially noticeable when speakers have strong accents, as AI transcription may introduce more errors in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advisable not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamp to ensure the accuracy of the guest's precise words.
Host 00:06
Mingalarbar! For any Burmese language speakers tuning in today, we wanted to let you know that our Better Burma mission has launched three Burmese language podcasts, Myanmar Revolutionary Tales, Dark Era of Burma, and Myanmar Peace, Women and Security. These programs can be found on our website as well as on any of your preferred podcast platforms. We invite you to take a listen. But for now let's get on with this episode.
Host 01:37
Alright, for this episode of Insight Myanmar podcast, I'm really pleased to welcome Min Ma Naing to discuss her career in arts and photojournalism and feminism. So thanks so much for joining us taking the time to talk about yourself.
Min Ma Naing 01:51
Thank you so much. Very glad to talk here in this channel too. This is Min Ma Naing. I hope one day, I can introduce you guys with my real name. I'm using my pseudonym, Min Ma Naing. That means like, the king cannot beat you. It's also reflects my revolutionary, artistic journey in this period of time. So I just pick up this name.
Host 02:18
Yeah, I see that. That's interesting, and to give some background for listeners, this is something not uncommon in Myanmar history, in times of revolution, and wanting to change society, the individuals who are on the forefront of that change are changing their name to reflect the current times. And so this is what we're also seeing now.
Min Ma Naing 02:39
It reminds me of my olden day during the Saffron Revolution when we use Gmail, we use the different name like something that relates to our identity. Now we are back to it.
Host 02:55
Okay, so for now, you're Min Na Naing and, you've explained why you've taken that name. As you've said, hopefully one day your real name may be known, but now, for safety and security reasons, this is not possible. There's a lot to talk about in terms of what you've covered in your personal and professional career. As we do with all of our podcasts, take us back to the beginning and talk a bit about growing up, your family life, early influences and what started to lead you to your later involvements.
Min Ma Naing 03:26
Yeah, I was not a photographer. I started my career as a teacher trainer when I pick up English major in my university, and then I try to be a teacher trainer because I hate my classroom experience as a student when I was young so I wanted to be a better teacher. With that kind of hatred, like the passion to change the classroom environment, I pick up like teacher training.
Host 04:03
Actually, that's where we met originally, because I was a teacher trainer back in Yangon at the American Center, and you came to a couple of those trainings, correct?
Min Ma Naing 04:11
Yes, that's correct. That time, American Center, Embassy, is the only alternative education resources for us. It's kind of like education hub for us and also exposure to democracy, and other forms of expression like music and literature.
Host 04:37
Great! So you're learning to be a teacher trainer. We met at the American Center during some of the courses that I was running and you learned some things there as well as the wider array of things the American Center offered, and then you were just getting onto a story about how you went to Hong Kong as a teacher trainer, so go ahead with that.
Min Ma Naing 04:54
I got a scholarship in Hong Kong for my master degree, but I'm interested in classroom management and I'm interested in learning behavior in the classroom setting. But because I'm from Myanmar so the Scholarship Committee said people from Myanmar should learn about development, they should learn about education and management. So it's not with my interest. So I got to learn about educational management in Hong Kong, which is not my actual interest. I'm not happy in my class, and I hate my Matchbox class, that room in Hong Kong, so I ended up sitting in the park. That time, if you remember, in Myanmar if a girl is sitting the park, it's kind of like a taboo. It's a rare experience for me so I'm very fascinated about sitting in the park. And also as a gesture of Myanmar culture, I just share my glance or I just share my smile with my neighbour, with everybody. And then I'm overly friendly for my neighbors so they misinterpret my behavior. Like I'm waiting for sex work as a second job, a part time job or something like that. And they approach me with a little piece of paper so I didn't know at that time how to react that. I didn't have sexual harassment, because this is my first time oversea country, I never heard of sexual harassment and things like that in my life so I didn't know how to react it. So then I bring my camera every day to the park to pretend I'm a tourist. I found photography there and this is how I started as a photographer in Hong Kong. I hang out more with the journalists than with the people in my classroom. So this is the time I started to interest in photography, but I was just a serious hobbyist. But Meiktila riot happened in 2013. Meiktila is where I used to give the teachers training so I got to know this city and got to know the people. So when that religious riots happened and in that incident eight Muslims were killed, I couldn't believe it because lived in that city; I had experience working there. So I wanted to do something like the positive connectivity between two communities, Buddhists community and Muslim community. But I didn't know how to tell the story with my photos. So I apply now for international reportage workshop, and I got selected. And then I spent three months in Meiktila .I remember some incident I when I took pictures of the damages in the mosque, a group of people followed me with a laundry stick and asked me to delete my memory card. And a lot of struggle, like special police, those kinds of harassment that really push me and wanted me to be a photographer.
Host 08:48
Meiktila was the first time in your life that you were actually doing something, at the time was a hobby, that it would lead to the photojournalism, but this was the first kind of photography in Myanmar you to document something, is that right?
Min Ma Naing 09:03
Yes, that's correct.
Host 09:06
So that must have been a really incredible experience to not have any professional background, not have any network, not have any technical skills really, just more as a hobby. Suddenly in this place where you're teaching and training, there's this riot, which is one of the the more horrifying and infamous riots of the last 10 years in Myanmar easily of the Buddhist-Muslim riots that happened your backyard. And just with your camera, you start taking pictures and then ended up with being harassed as you do that.
Min Ma Naing 09:36
That's correct. Those struggles, those challenges makes me want to do photography. This kind of makes my blood boil.
Host 09:49
Why is that?
Min Ma Naing 09:54
When I became a teacher, I am happy teaching but I didn't get this urge. I didn't get this urgency like this kind in my life. And so the more they stopped me the more want I want to tell the story, but to be honest, because I didn't know the tools of the storytelling with the images, I realized I need to learn about storytelling. And that's why I started to apply for opportunity to learn about reportage.
Host 10:34
Right, then you switched careers from education to photojournalism to storytelling. So then you I assume you went to school or some kind of training in that field?
Min Ma Naing 10:45
Yeah, I applied for international reportage workshop by Pathshala, South Asian Institute from Bangladesh and Norwegian, University of Oslo, where they were doing an international workshop. I was the only hobbyist, but that didn't stop me. After that workshop, I went to Meiktila again. I spent three months working on positive connectivity because I believe that in the media landscape we always talk about negative stories, but I truly believe that there is always a beautiful story behind it even in the war. I wanted to highlight on that so the more we know about the positivity, the more we can connect communities because I believe those communities always have been, Buddhist and Muslim communities in Meiktila, in a good relationship. Although they have scars, but long history, they live together like a religious family. It's a beautiful bond that is still happening, I witnessed it and I experienced it. So with that drive I went.....Meiktila was life changing.
Host 12:13
I just want to pause there for a minute because you described how you want to find the good side of certain stories, not a fabricated good side, but authentically some part of the story or nuance that's not being told. So here you have these terrible anti-Muslim riots that take place in Meiktila that make international news. And yet, as someone who has spent time and lived in Meikila, you're telling us now that there is this history of positive and wholesome Muslim-Buddhist relations. So can you share a bit about what you mean by that from your experience of living in Meiktila? What positive interactions between Muslim and Buddhist communities did you witness that wasn't being reported at the time of the riots?
Min Ma Naing 12:57
Yeah, I lived and worked there for six months. I lived with the local family, my landlord is a Muslim and also their relatives are Buddhists, and even one of her cousins is a monk. So, it's like this kind of thing you cannot easily see in Yangon. It's very beautiful like they share food, and it also in soonkyway( like donation ceremony for Buddhists) the Muslim relatives or neighbors attended. It's an inter-religious community, and there are also some incidents such as some of the Muslims saved by the Buddhist community. For me if we highlight more about positive story people will have more courage to save the Muslims or the people who needs help. So I like to highlight those positive part. That is what is lacking in the media landscape.
Host 14:06
Right, great, thanks for that. And you were going on with your story of what happened after Meiktila as you started to realize you wanted to learn this field more.
Min Ma Naing 14:14
Yeah, after Meiktila I spent three months to do that storytelling based on Meiktila. Then after that, I decided this is where I want to be. Because we never knew what we wanted to be when we were young in our generation. So I really realized that this is where I wanted to be and I quit my job. Then I got a job in Myanmar Times as a photo journalist, as a staff photographer. It's different workspaces and different nature of work, but it really excited me to work with a newsroom.
Host 15:10
What excited you about that?
Min Ma Naing 15:11
Mostly, I'm very bad with words. So I have a lot of stories. I realized that mostly my stories come from love and hatred. Sometimes if I love something I really want to share and also if I'm really disgusted about the one thing I want to tell. Working in the newsrooms, people say "you cannot be subjective in the newsroom", but we pick up the story we would like to tell and working in Myanmar Times gave me a chance to pitch the story I like to do. Of course, I also have to cover the story I am assigned, but I have a chance to pitch the story. For example., copper mine protests, I had a chance to meet with the the activists mostly led by the women. I also had a chance to go to Rohingya camp in Sittwe and tell about the woman side of story, which mostly becuase male photographer go and cover, there is sometimes a gap of seeing from the woman perspective. Working with Myanmar Times, I can improve my photography at the same time. The salary from teacher trainer to photo journalist is a huge gap, but I'm happy. I'm happy in my job so it's different.
Host 17:05
Right, you also referenced elsewhere the problems you had being a female in this profession, both in terms of your family who had maybe hopes or expectations that you might look for marriage rather than a career as well as in the professional field in terms of sexism and gender discrimination. So can you talk a bit about the experience of being a woman in this profession during these years?
Min Ma Naing 17:31
Coming from typical Burmese family, being a teacher trainer is like every parents' dream. It's an occupation designed for women. So my family, my mom, was really happy when I was a teacher trainer, but I when I changed to photographer, she didn't really accept photography as an occupation. I was always like referred as doing my hobby. So that for one or two years, I tried to prove that I am capable, but I later I realized that I don't need to prove to anybody. If I want to do something, I don't need to prove to anyone so I kept going. Being a woman photographer, although I'm excited to work in the newsroom, there are some situation like when we pitched the stories sometimes I got reactions like "oh this is too dangerous for you". This kind of protest you will send the male photographer but not the woman photographer because it is too dangerous for women. For example, like my pitch to the copper mine, although I pitched with a writer, the response was that the writer is a male so a man should be assigned together. But I really researched together with the writer so I had to go. So then I told them if you cannot assign me I will go with my own expense. I was really determine, but I realized that the newsroom culture is still limited for a woman photographer. I think it's not just in Myanmar, I think it's relatable to most countries for the woman photographer. So I felt this is not where I want to be. I like to work on the story, maybe in the conflict zone and maybe in the trafficking in a border area. I'm also interested to cover the trafficking story from Myanmar to China as a bride at that time. I like to work on those things, but my experience with the newsroom is also limiting me so I decided to quit the job in not even one year, like 11 months. Then I persued to be a longterm documentary photographer, because newsroom culture is a little bit too rash for me. For me I like working with the community, gaining trust and like more slow journalism, I could say that. So that's also a part of the reason I quit the job and mostly focus on the long-term personal documentary. When I say personal it's because some of the drive to cover the stories come from my personal love and hatred.
Host 21:19
And you also referenced elsewhere in other interviews that you had some concern that the stories that you were being asked to cover, either fit into what you called "a hot topic" or a typical Burmese scene. So can you flesh out what you meant by those terms and your concerns with that?
Min Ma Naing 21:36
Yeah, for example, one of my stories 'Sorry, Not Sorry', it's about the process of my personal reflection, personal journey after my breakup. But photography is an industry, it's sad, but it's just an industry. Although we try to call it like a community, but it's still an industry. So in this industry, everything's by trend, everything by hot topics, so at the time the editor wanted my work to be for the Burmese woman, giving Burmese woman a gaze into the white man. So [my story] is not about that. Just because I'm a woman from Myanmar, they try to put into the context of the trending topic. I needed to be honest with myself for the artist statement and especially to my artwork. So I mostly fight for this kind of situations. Sometimes I got a chance to tell what I want to tell, but sometimes they're not interested if I'm not in the trend. So it's Okay, at least I can be true to myself.
Host 23:09
And by those terms, hot topic or Burmese scene, these have been some of the primary things that people want you to cover. Can you unpack those terms and tell us what they meant in the context of a newsroom and why you were uncomfortable with them?
Min Ma Naing 23:22
For example, when I went to the Rohingya camp in 2014 I wanted to dig more on the woman issue in the camp, but the editor, the newsroom editor didn't. Because I have like a perfect views of the woman in the interview, I wanted to tell more about the oppressed life of women in the camp, but this is not what they want to hear. They want to hear more about the suffering of the Rohingya, yeah, of course, Rohingya women suffering is also important. But I want to highlight more on the lived experience of Rohingya woman in the camp, not just to highlight only the generalized suffering of the Rohingya issue, but at that time it's not an interesting topic for my editor. Then for example, Meiktila issue, I wanted to go back to do a positive story; I want to do an ongoing one. So I pitched it to the newsroom, but [they were not] interested in it because Meiktila incident happened 2013. So no follow up research based story in the news culture, and also a positive story is not very juicy. So I feel like it's kind of a frustrating phase of my career, the early phase of my career. So I just have to be freelance or more working on my personal documentary. And it's good....more than working for an outlet like I'm working for the agency.
Host 25:55
Yeah, I'm really alarmed consistently when stories in Myanmar are covered in journalism, it often seems this extraordinary lack of nuance, there's really just one angle they have for it. It creates this dichotomy of either that is what the truth is, or that's absolutely not the truth, and there's no real wiggle room or human element or humanity that's expressed within these complicated factors. Just an example that comes to my mind is looking at Sitagu Sayadaw and the role that he's played in some of the anti-Islam things, and the concerns about how he has supported or said complimentary things about the anti-Islam violence. That's a very important story to cover and It's something that people should know. And the things he said and done, they're very legitimate for wanting to be concerned about and wanting to report on it. But often in the way it's reported, it's seen as this black and white thing. "Oh, he said this. So he obviously believes this, and this is what his mission is", and either everyone is completely for or against what that angle is. I'm telling that story because in the middle of all this when Sitagu Sayadaw was getting a lot of this criticism and flak for some of the speeches that he gave, I happened to visit the Sitagu Academy in Sagaing, and I met the director. He's a good friend of mine there, U Kamara and I was just talking to him in his office. As I was talking, I looked at his desk, and I saw that he had a copy of the Quran in translated in Burmese, and of course, that completely piqued my interest. I was like, "why are you looking at that?", and my mind started to reel towards different conspiracy theories. And he just said, delightfully, "oh",and then he went to a box, and he opened up a box. He showed me hundreds of these Qurans that were translated, and he said, "Oh, at this Academy, we don't just want to learn about Buddhism, we want to learn about other religions, and this is our chance to learn about what's in the Quran". I kind poked a little bit like, "oh, well, do you look at it, you know, are you trying to criticize it? Or are you looking at it, like compared to Buddhism?". And he just said, "no, no, no, we just, we just read it, we just want to know what's in it, we just want to know what this religion is made up of so we better understand it so we can converse and have inter-religious dialogue". I just sat there kind of stunned that there's this whole narrative, framing the entire Sitagu mission as leading this anti-Islam charge. This is not in any way to to comment upon the statements the Sitagu Sayadaw said in regards to the anti-Islam violence, which were concerning and really bad. It's not in any way to justify that, it's just talking about this nuanced environment where, on one hand, you have the head of this academy Sayadaw saying these things that are very concerning, and that might be inciting violence, and that deserve that attention, but then the nuance of the story is that within the academy, where hundreds of Buddhist monks are studying there, they're going to classes where they're learning the Quran, and they're learning it to be able to understand Islam. And what does that mean? I don't know exactly, It's a lot to untangle. But to me, the problem is when you have the stories, and you're just having that one angle where either Sitagu Sayadaw is anti-Islam, or he's not anti-Islam, or he is anti-Islam, but it's a good thing because he needs to protect Buddhism. These are just very simplistic ways of storytelling. And you lose that nuance of learning, just that one fact that within this academy, all the monks are reading the Quran just to have an idea of what Islam is about so that they can have inter-religious dialogue. So I think that's just one example. I think of many things that are out there. I think Meiktila also fits into that with you, where there are these nuanced complex elements of how society and events are coming together. And often when it comes to Myanmar, I find we just get the one story at the end, which just completely overwhelms and drowns out all of those smaller actors and engagements in favor of just the one storyline.
Min Ma Naing 30:09
Yeah, I feel like this trend give us a repeated stories all the time. Of course those stories are important to hear, but also there are other angles. So the more you hear repeatedly, sometimes [stories] fade away, like it's too much. I think we also need to have a balance of other like human story or other side of the story, not just for Myanmar, I think it's also similar like Ukraine and other news.
Host 30:55
I also think that takes curiosity, because when this incident happened I was kind of upset that I just happened to be in Sitagu Academy seeing this Quran on the desk and then asking about it. Why did no reporter ever do that? Why was there no one who was telling the story? Whoever thought to go to the most famous Academy by Sitagu Sayadaw and learn what was being taught there and report on it? Whether it was anti-Islam or a more wider view or inter-religious or talk about the complexity. I know a bit about Sitagu Academy and the Sitagu mission. It's very complex, there are a lot of senior Sitagu monks who do not agree with Sitagu Sayadaw. There are left-leaning Sitagu monks, there're right leaning Sitagu monks; there're pro-democracy, there're pro-military, and there is no reporting on this. I don't see anyone who's interested or curious in trying to find out the makeup of this. Instead, we just get one story. One basic boring caricature of Sitagu Sayadaw with no real examination or underlying investigation under that one storyline.
Min Ma Naing 31:55
Yeah, this is interesting to hear, the Quran study. It's worth researching about this in the news landscape.
Host 32:09
Right, and getting back to your story, one of the things you've said elsewhere, but this is inferred by what you've said in this interview is that you're not so much a photojournalist now. Maybe you started out that way, but you feel that you're a storyteller, not a photo journalist, and you've also described yourself as an artist and not an activist. So can you pick apart those terms and why you've expressed yourself that way?
Min Ma Naing 32:36
Because as I told you, I covered a story based on my personal response. So some stories can be my personal response. Some stories can be collaborating with the people based on the topic I chose. So if I'm photojournalisti, I cannot pinpoint my projection, my feeling or my emotion in it. For example, Meiktila story is all about love so the story also reflected my love in the community. So in the form of journalism it's a little bit difficult to portray this way. And not just Meiktila story, for example, my other story with a trafficking victim from Inn Wa tailor case, San Kay Khaing. I have a traumatized childhood so I can also reflect my childhood together with her. It's kind of like a storyteller and the collaborator, building a story together, telling the story together as reflection of our emotion. And so that's why I don't want to call myself a journalist, and journalism has also its way of telling a story like more reportage way. The reportage way, I feel, has so much limitation. Some stories are very gentle and some stories are very complex, and to tell the story in reportage harsh language is not enough for me. I couldn't speak for other photographer and for journalists, not enough for me, so I was like, Okay, it's too much limitation. So I call myself artist not a photojournalist.
Host 34:56
Right, whatever you're calling yourself, whatever your Motivation is, there is an art to taking a good picture and what is defined as a good picture, how you frame it, when you click the camera and what you're trying to capture. So from a technical standpoint, can you describe as well as you can what goes into getting and framing a good picture?
Min Ma Naing 35:19
Mostly again, that which strike with my emotion. If it does strike my emotion when I capture the moment, and respond to my emotion, I will really choose that photo. And also, I couldn't decide which photo I would choose most of the time, because I have to check which photos tell the story really effectively, and which photos portray my my emotion plus the issues more effectively. Sometimes I have to be really careful when I choose a photograph, maybe because it's problematic for the people I'm shooting. Because we have an ethic, although some photograph can be amazing like catching the moment, but if that photo can [cause] trouble for my collaborator, I have to get rid of it. So it's difficult to tell which is the striking photo plus the photo I choose for the story.
Host 36:49
You described elsewhere also about how you capture photos that you consider yourself like a cat. And this relates to the moods and the interactions you have with what you're capturing. Can you describe that a bit more?
Min Ma Naing 37:03
Yeah, so some of the stories come very intuitively, but I call myself a cat photographer, because I know which area I want to cover and I know what kind of language even from the start. Sometimes I know I will shoot with a warm tone or I will shoot with a cold tone, because this is all about anger. For example, my work with National Geographic on Spring Revolution. I know that it's the beginning of the revolution, so there are lots of photographs showing the emotion of the people and enthusiasm of the people who are taking part in the Revolution; peopel are rerally enthusiastic about it.The photos also show, but for me this is a kind of a war we are starting, but we don't know the result. Maybe we win in the short time or maybe we will not win in the short time. So in my mind I have to protect the people I'm shooting because in the end if they junta catch the people based on my photos, that's my responsibility. So I know that since the start I need to protect them. Also being in the protest and being part of the community, not as an outsider, I'm myself also very enthusiastic about it, everything is very overwhelming. So if I come with a digital camera, I will be overwhelmed by every factor. Since that time I know that I need to slow down and not to be too overwhelmed in this situation. So I decided to shoot with a film camera because film camera approach helped me slow down and see what I need. I understood that I will shoot with film and I will protect them [protestors] so I decided to do double exposure protecting the identity. So one photo is the protesting, one photo is the protester so I overlaid it. In protecting our protagonist like the collaborator as I shoot with the film I need to send it to the lab, but if I send it to the lab it will expose the identity. So, I decided, Okay, I will develop myself. I know that if we develop ourselves at home there will be a lots of desks and imperfection of the chemical. So, I was like maybe this is also to tell how complex the political landscape at that time. So imperfection, and the distruction in the chemical reaction as the result of film developing also met with my storytelling. So I decided, Okay, I will shoot with film and develop it myself. So since the start, I know what I want to do. Some projects are very intuitive., but some project I'm really plan how I want to do. Yeah.
Host 40:57
Right, so you're actually jumping ahead and talking about your project called Faces of change, and we can go there, we can go all over the map. There are some things in between in your journey before we get to the military coup, but because you touched on that, let's examine what this Faces of Change is. And in your own words, describing this project of double exposure, you wrote "Faces of Change will provide an intimate answer to that sprawling question a subtle, human focused portrait gallery of ordinary individuals who are participating in the revolution and strangers acting in unison, radically changing their country's history. This gallery of ordinary people at an extraordinary juncture in their lives is aimed to bring a needed counterpoint perspective to the imagery of Myanmar Spring Revolution". And as I'm reading that now one of the things that stands out to me that I wasn't aware of, when I first looked at is the two words that really stand out in that quote "needed counterpoint". You talk about bringing a needed counterpoint perspective to the imagery of Myanmar Spring Revolution. In having this conversation with you up till now you've talked about how any story that you're covering, you're always looking at this other angle, this nuance that's perhaps positive perspective, this human part of it that's been lost. This really stands out to me that you're also bringing this to those early revolution days. So, my question for you is what do you feel was being lost or missed or misunderstood in the early reporting of the resistance to the coup? And how did you want your work as storytelling, again not as photojournalism because you've defined yourself that way, to fit into a gap of information and perspective that you felt wasn't being properly addressed?
Min Ma Naing 42:53
So, in the early phase of revolution a lot of coverage was on the energetic scene of the the protest, and the tactics of the protest, and having profile even in the news is mostly prolific people. For example, like the woman leader of the activists, Aljazeera include that person and BBC also include that person. So, we keep hearing the same answers to the same questions in different media outlet. So, for me at that time the revolution is not just starting from the politicians, it's from ordinary people coming out and gathering. This revolution is people's revolution led by people, so, I wanted to highlight different colors of ordinary people. Although we have the same goal, I also included the common factory workers, elderly people who have faced several revolutions, and Gen Z. Not just focusing on Gen Z at the time, because other people's experience is also important like ethnic communities. The involvement of the ethnic people will not be the same with the garment factory workers or the Burmese. So I would like to listen to them. The challenges of that piece is when I just asked them one question, everybody said "because we are angry, we are angry about the dictatorship". After hearing three interviews repeating [the same anaswer], I didn't know what to do. So I asked my mentor, he's a writer but also my mentor. He said "why don't you start the conversation like a slow conversation, a natural conversation like you do". When I make the portrait, I wanted to protect the identity so I invited [subjects] to my house, so it's a safe space and calmer situation. So, I sat down, started from some conversation stuff from childhood. There's no set question, we just go with the flow. So it becomes a human element. Every different profile has different life experience. That experience drove them to take part in this revolution. I think sometimes in the rash nature of news we miss this kind of conversation.
Host 46:27
Yeah, it sounds like a podcast discussion, what you're describing sounds like you just sit down and just have a free flowing organic, long form discussion. And so staying a bit on just the recent coup and the resistance movement, there were those early nonviolent protests, I understand you were out in the street and you were taking pictures and that also that was very exciting, but it also became somewhat dangerous. So can you go back to those two years and just describe your experience in that period?
Min Ma Naing 47:00
Like every photographer or artist or documenter were really enthusiastic and excited to cover the protest. Everybody, starting from February 27th 22 [sic] the crackdowns became tougher so, we started really preparing like having gas masks, boots and helmets, but those kinds of preparation maybe fit for the photographer from Hong Kong but doesn't fit with Myanmar. Because we are facing the Myanmar police and soldiers so it's different from the other context. In March it's getting harder and harder. A lot of of photographers and protesters had to hide.....I also faced experience of hiding three times. One incident is on March 27, we are doing the artist-led protests on Pansodan road and after maybe just two minutes a police crackdown happened. Pansodan road is a long road and it's difficult to hide so we just ran to the building, we happened to hide in a nine-story building. We knocked the door nobody opens for us. Finally, the family opened for us was a Hindu family. There were seven family members living there and protestors, a photographer and a videographer were eight and so like 15 people in an apartment doesn't make sense if they come check us out, but they they open the door for us. My experience in the past as a photojournalist is that I have to blend in as a local so I asked them "can you give me the red dot to put on my forehead like Hindu woman?" and also, I asked them to change my clothes and I hide my cameras in the kitchen, bedroom and in an unexpected area. Really, the police and the soldier came with a real gun. They said "family members on that side, protestors on that side", and I went with a family member side. And the youngest family members were eight-years-old twins. They communicate within their family to pretend me as their maid in Hindi. So, everybody knows what to say. And suddenly, other protestors and one video journalist were arrested, and were taken to the interrogation center except me. In that incident, the police and the soldier, they even tried to check the family census or family list. I was like, Okay, if they check the family list, I am doomed. But one family member, she's pregnant, and she started to act like she's vomiting. And then she gives me a signal, I know that I'm to hold her hand and we went to the kitchen. And this way, I am not in the sight of the soldier so I could escape from that arrest. So if we reflect that incident , the Hindu family, they were minority who faced the oppression, and they saved me, the Burmese, the majority. It was such an experience for me.
Host 51:41
That's incredible, but also how traumatic it must have been that all of your colleagues that you were with, except for you, all got arrested and taken to the interrogation center. That must have been just awful.
Min Ma Naing 51:52
Yeah, that's very devastating, especially because they were taken to the interrogation section. So, as you know, it's very notorious, and we were really worried. And what happened was as I share that incident to the art community, someone shared [on Facebook], who and who's arrested, but I escaped from that building by disguising as a maid with the help of the Hindu family. I was like, oh my God, sometimes I feel like people reacted as if we don't have anything to help the situation. We were really devastated, and then we do something like posting on Facebook. So that is causing more harm than help. So we really need to be careful in this kind of situation, reflecting my experience. Yeah, I really had difficult time to take down all Facebook shares about the incident, not because of my identity or my safety, but because of the Hindu family on Pansodan road. It's like one of the only houses they raided so it's very obvious. So, I'm really worried about the family who saved me, and worried about the people in the interrogation section because they were also really helpful for me. They didn't even look at me, like my friend, she's a artist and a videographer. She didn't even give a glance to me, like she saw me, but we didn't even share a glance so everyone on that day helped me to escape that arrest.
Host 53:56
Did that change the way that you were going out and covering the story?
Min Ma Naing 54:01
So, because I'm not trained as a frontline photographer, and there are other photographers out there doing covering this protest, I wanted to do another story that I can tell more effectively. So, I'm mostly working indoor in a studio, inviting people and collecting that Phases of Change portrait profiles. And I also collected the poster of Min Aung Hlaing, which was crushed and stepped down on by the people. It's like a street artifact of the people, revolutionary people. We can see a damage poster of Min Aung Hlaing, but it also shows how we hate that man, like how we hate that future. So, I'm collecting them, and also collecting the physical objects. One day, hopefully, if we have a chance, we can show them. Sadly, I couldn't take those pieces out of Myanmar so they're still in a safe place.
Host 55:33
So talk about your decision to ultimately leave Myanmar and what drove it and what it was like having to leave.
Min Ma Naing 55:39
Apart from working as a photographer, I also work for an NGO that develops resources for local photographer and film maker. It's a local NGO and it was registered under my name. We work closely with the journalists and we also work on some sensitive projects like extractive industry and the human rights issue. Even before Aung San Suu Kyi period, NLD period, we were running that organization. That time if something sensitive, like an exhibition happen, or some report launch happen at our organization, the person who they question is me, because I'm the owner. I'm the [owner] by registration so they can come to me anytime. So, I've been followed by the Special Police for two months; we launched a report launch on jade mines in 2015, but at the same time, we know how to play. But, in Min Aung Hlaing time I feel like the targets are random, and also, he's actually like a mad dog in the corner. I started to feel not really safe, because of the my link with my artwork. I'm not a hardcore journalist, and I tell stories in a conceptual way so I can be in Myanmar doing this kind of approach, but my link with my registration makes me vulnerable. In that period I didn't have any legal support, or I didn't have any support from international partners. So I was like, okay, I have to find my way out by myself so I was glad to know Cornell's Artists of Risk program, so they accepted me as an artist of risk in Cornell. And then I didn't even prepare, like, I couldn't prepare the time. My sister was in prison, she was arrested in April, our New Year. So, I discussed with my mom, like, I got this opportunity, should I go? I cannot leave her while my sister was in prison, because my mom is 71. She didn't even know how to use online banking, but she was like, okay go, at least one family member has to be outside and safe, and you can do a lot if you're outside. And so, she pushed me, she helped me decide I have to go. I love Myanmar really, and I didn't even have preparation time. I couldn't also tell a lot of people; let's say, I'm leaving tomorrow, and this evening I'm meeting with my women photographer group. And I couldn't tell them I'm leaving, but I knew that this is my last time and I don't know when I will meet them again. It's very hard so when I left that meeting to go home I needed to absorb the moment. I stopped my taxi and walkerd because this will be my last moment like soaking up all the memories of Yangon and everything. Like not just Yangon, even if I have a chance to go back to Yangon, it will be different because the people we love are not there, and we lost some people and it will be different.
Host 1:00:18
Sure, now as so many others have, you've been displaced. In being displaced, there's also dispossession, this loss of home for an indefinite period as you can't go back to familiar places, people, and where your native land is. So, as time stretches on, and we don't know how long this terrible crisis is going to go on, can you describe how that dispossession is feeling to you?
Min Ma Naing 1:00:55
When I made the decision, I really thought maybe within one year I could come back. I was naive, I didn't expect that long, like now I still believe we will win, but extent of the timeframe, I couldn't know. So that time, because the tempo of the revolution is also really high, so I was really positive. Like I will be outside of Myanmar for one year or one-and-a-half year, not more than that. I went to the US and it's a big country, so really, the first thingI feel is guilt and shame at the same time. I experienced guilt like that a couple of times in my life when leaving my mom, and escaping from arrest while my other friends were arrested. And leaving my fellow photographer friends, my colleagues, my close friends in Myanmar, this is guilt and I'm also ashamed of myself for leaving. I thought I can freely do artwork if I'm not in Myanmar. I was working on a quilt, I'm not only a photographer, I started sewing because I know embroidery ande quilting. So, I started cyanotyp, which is like sand print photograph on the fabric, and I started to quilt to tribute to the people who lost their lives. You may remember one incident where five people, young people jumped out of a building to escape from arrest. That incident, I'm really angry at myself becuase at that period we didn't know whom to be angry at. So that time like my anger is on me like why am I doing this quilt, why am I doing this art piece, why am I borrowing other people's sorrow while living comfortably in US. So, I cut that quilt piece by piece. Yeah, it took me a while, I couldn't do any artwork. So, when people approached me, do you have any new work or something like that, instead of showing my work I recommended fellow photographer's work or artist's walk. If they are interested I also did like a curation, online curation or something like that, because I'm not comfortable to show my work. I'm a photographer, but I am not comfortable in showing my work and addressing myself as a photographer, so it's kind of like losing my identity in a foreign land. I don't know how to respond to it. It's really a depressive moment like, but I also cannot share my difficulties to my friends, because they live in Myanmar and they have bigger struggle than me, and people are dying. And then I'm in US, I don't want to share this to anybody so it became more and more bigger.
Host 1:05:17
Yeah, that's certainly all very understandable. You did also create some post-coup artwork that was exploring your own deeper and underlying feelings. This was called 'Of Solongs and Ashes'. Can you explain the work behind that and what you were trying to impart and tap into?
Min Ma Naing 1:05:39
Yeah, for a while I couldn't produce any work in us. So, as I told you, I became depressed. And so, I started to meet with my counselor, she's from Myanamr giving me the free counseling for 10 sessions. I couldn't do any counseling in US because it's very expensive. So, thanks to her. I tell her I reflected that I lost my energy as a photographer and so she said, "Okay, why don't we do exercise like visual diary, maybe you can also write, you can also take picture or something like that". And so I was like, okay, maybe I'll start doing this, but I'm not doing any project. And she said, fine, don't worry, you don't need to do any new project. Because at that time, if Ithink of project I feel guilty doing any project related to the coup, and so I was just collecting something from my daily life. It's kind of a exercise of visual diary of that period. And mostly, I long for Myanmar and also for my community. I think a place and the people are very interrelated. Missing Myanmar means missing my community. And so, I write and I do that visual diary. And she said, if you feel like you can do anything you like that is not related to work so I made a quilt, and also I made a handmade book. So, I was like, maybe I will do a diary with these photos just for myself. So, I started to look at the photos, all are from US, and although I'm shooting this particular scene, this particular landscape, they strike me from the past and back in Myanmar. So why don't I mix with the photo I shot in Myanmar from the last week I was in Yangon. So I'm trying to mix with the past and the present of the kind of like my memory, floating back and forth, from Myanmar to US.
Host 1:08:34
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think it's really interesting that this is coming from work you were doing with a therapist. So, you were tapping into really deep ephemeral conceptions and feelings that were going on at the time and trying to figure out how to bring and tap into, as you've described, your personality, and your work as an artist and how strongly emotion is really the centerpiece and the lens and the forefront of everything you're doing. So, this is an example with this 'Of Solongs and Ashes', tapping into not just a feeling, not just to emotion, but to this deep rooted trauma that you're working out with a therapist and actually transforming that into an artistic piece. Would you say that's the most personal kind of artwork or photojournalism you've ever done?
Min Ma Naing 1:09:33
Yeah, it's a very personal work.
Host 1:09:40
Right, and I'm sure that as you're finding your way as an artist, an activist and a Burmese person who's impacted by these terrible things going on, I imagine there was something cathartic about that experience as well?
Min Ma Naing 1:09:52
Yeah, shooting itself and I also had handmade books so like revisiting the images I made new and old. So, it's very cathartic for me.
Host 1:10:09
I should add that from looking at the description of this work 'Of Solongs and Ashes', can you tell us where this title came from?
Min Ma Naing 1:10:22
I like poetry, mostly short poetry. It's playing with the words I really like. E.E Cummings is one of my favorite poets so I like this line coming from him, because it's all about departure, like leaving Myanmar. Some departures are really rash and some departures are planned, but some departures are really unexpected. It's about departure and also because I like E.E Cummings's poetry, I got this last line of his poem. So, 'Of Solongs and Ashes' is all about like memory, like how memory linger in us from the past up untill now. The way I see Attica landscape reflected my Yangon landscape. It's totally different, Myanmar, Yangon landscape, and in upstate New York landscape, but it related to me in insight. Maybe it doesn't work for the viewer, but it worked for me in that way. When I gather the photos together, I didn't get the title at first. So I like to put scenes into handmade books, so as I'm sequencing and revisiting the photos, I'm not good at writing so I just had a scattering words in my diary, I just pull it up. Then later I gave this title.
Host 1:12:22
Right, that's certainly brings out a lot. So, we've jumped forward from the start of your photojournalism career all the way until the recent coup and your work after it. So, let's fill in the middle a little bit with some of the projects that you did both artistic and photojournalism. One of the ones that I think would be quite interesting to listeners on this platform, many of whom have an interest in different aspects of Buddhism and meditation as it relates to Myanmar, is your work at this nunnery. So, can you describe what brought you to this nunnery, what you found and what you ended up doing with it?
Min Ma Naing 1:13:02
Yeah, it's really interesting. I thought living in the nunnery, religious boarding school, because most of the media and most of the information I got is like, oh, it's very oppressive and Buddhism is very strict training for the young people. So, I went there with a photographer and an artist, we want drama right? I thought maybe I will find some kind of lost childhood of the children who took refuge in the nunnery from war-torn zones like Wa region and northern Shan State, Lashio. So, I went ther with that expectation. I'm Burmese although I have a little bit of Chin, but I was raised in Burmese community. So, I went there and I wanted to do very slow journalism. Because they are from ethnic minority, I want to build trust with them first. So, I asked them, the head of the nunnery, I like to give a full photo workshop to the young nuns or who would like to explore photography and then I ended up staying there for two weeks. The more I spend the time, I realized that, oh my God, this nunnery school is a very alternative school that you cannot even see in the government schools. They learn dancing, they learn about exercises, and it's like a really alternative school. And also it's interesting, most of the ethnic groups are from Northern States, for example, like the Shan, Kachin, Chin, Wa, and some Burmese nuns too. Those ethnic areas have conflicts within conflicts to each other and to own group. But in the nunnery I can see sisterhood, friendship like nun who is a little bit older is taking care of the young Shan nun. It's an example of the positive connectivity. Between two groups, sometimes we come with a preassumption like for the journalist, photographer, artist or whoever, because we were fed secondhand information, but the more you spend in that area, the more you know what is the story. Like, what is the complexity of the story, and what is the layer behind? I find a beautiful bond between them. And I pitched the story to the funder, the story is like an oppressed childhood of the ethnic nun, but I told him this is not what I find, and maybe if you don't like it you don't fund me. This is what the story is and they are really flexible so I changed that story.
Host 1:17:07
That's really great. I really like the honesty that you're bringing to that you're coming with one set of preconceived conditions. And I think it really takes talent and an ability to recognize that there is a divergence between the preconceived and unexamined assumptions you're bringing in and what the story is actually telling you. And to be able to identify the errors in what you're bringing to a story and look at the story itself. I think that's really profound and being able to course-correct in that way. You also describe in taking on this project that you went with fears of being a parachute journalist, and I thought that was a very interesting expression. To unpack that expression for listeners who don't know, a parachute journalist is a journalist who parachutes from an airplane into a remote area that they have no background in, files the story, and then goes back on the plane and leave. So, it's kind of this in-and-out journalist who doesn't really have a proper understanding of the context, it's quite a negative term. Often that term is used at least in Myanmar meaning like white Western journalists who come into Myanmar to try to parachute into those places, do a story and go back to their comfortable places in the US. So, I thought it was interesting that you as a Bamar with some chin mixed in, basically a Burmese reporting on another Burmese story, that you were using this term for yourself and fear that's something you didn't want to be. So, in what way did you feel so disconnected and removed from that story taking place that you actually had concerns that you could fit into this mold of a parachute journalist?
Min Ma Naing 1:19:03
For me, most of the stories are new, sometimes we have a research time, but sometimes we don't, so I was worried that I represent the story in a wrong way. Although I'm an insider, I couldn't know the lived experience of the people I'm taking pictures of or the telling the story of. Sometimes it can really impact the media landscape, so I was really careful. I was conscious of how much little we know about the issue. So, I had to remind myslef that I have to spend the time, because that can tell a difference story. For example, if I spent only one day in the nunnery school, I wouldl only see maybe like a tired young nun after she came back from the school. Because we all have tiresome moments, so I will interpret that moment in a negative story or something like that. A short moment can be represented very dangerously. I think like the news, like hot news, or the rash nature of the news can face this kind of problem. It can be problematic, because very rarely we follow it up in the newsroom, or a follow up story, we couldn't even spend like more than two days in the newsroom. Maybe because of the resources and limitation of the finance, but if we encourage ourselves to spend more time, we can see more of the story, like sometimes a story just come unexpectedly. If we don't spend that time, we will miss those moments. Sometimes the people we are photographing or collaborating in the story also know how to answer the media questions, because people are very familiar with the media, right? For example, like the Faces of Change, people answer with similar responses, because they know this is how they have to tell the media. So, we have to loosen up a little bit, and we have to find their natural moment and natural story come unexpectedly. Sometimes they know our expectation, so it's both ways; we come with an expectation and the people we are shooting also know our expectations.
Host 1:22:26
This finished work ended up being a series of photographs that told the story, which wasn't the story you expected to tell. What did these photographs that were a part of this finished work depict? What did they show?
Min Ma Naing 1:22:43
You mean from my Nunnery project?
Host 1:22:45
Yeah, yeah.
Min Ma Naing 1:22:48
Mostly, I collaborated with them on the beauty of the sisterhood side, because they also don't know when they can go back home. Their parents are in war-torn zone, they shelter here because it's away from war. Because that time it was in 2019, the war only happen in the ethnic areas or the border areas, northern Shan State, Kachin, but not like war is everywhere today. That time this nunnery is the only safe place for them to shelter from war. So I decided to highlight the beautiful bond between the nuns from different diverse ethnic groups.
Host 1:23:43
Right, moving on to another project. I do find it interesting how all of your projects are fitting into your artistic mold, both bringing your subjective beliefs and personhood into it, your feelings and backgrounds. I just see the thread of diversity in everything you do, and wanting to go beyond the big headlines and block style stories that frustrate both of us so much when it comes to Myanmar, and wanting to go into those nuanced human details that are often not so visible. And another project that fits into that is the extensive time you spent in Bangladesh. Being in Bangladesh also put you as a Buddhist in a community of Muslims. The Buddhist-Muslim tensions in this part of the world is something we're hearing a lot about, and yet you embedded there, you live there, that became your life and your home for some period, and you interacted with a whole host of people. So tell us about what happened in Bangladesh.
Min Ma Naing 1:24:56
In Bangladesh and Myanmar, before I went there, they said it will be so different, because like, we're from Buddhist country and going to an Islamic country. When I lived there for a long time, we also have like a lot of common experiences like the extreme religious frenetics in both countries. And also, the experience of woman is similar, the patriarchal society is also similar so I can relate to some of them, but I still feel like I'm living there as a guest, I never feel like a part of the community. So, I feel really alienated. Friends I have, like I got invited for dinner and also I got invited to occasions but I always feel like an outsider, So, I was unconsciously shooting something about my alienation and isolation of my experience in Bangladesh. At that time, I unexpectedly met the Somalian community in Bangladesh. It was an unexpected meeting at the immigration office, because I have to renew my visa. It's a bureaucratic country, I have to go to the immigration office like 16 times. So, I spent hours there and then I become friends with them. They invited me and then I spent like nearly three months hanging out with them, because I became a part of them. They share that although they are from Bangladesh community, becuase of the black skin and the brown skin there comes the racial discrimination to a lot of my Somali friends. They aslo feel really alienated and really isolated. I also visited the University and I can see the Bangladeshi community, Muslim students don't speak to them. So, we have like a share experience between me and my Somali friends. But what strikes me is that they are away from home, but they are trying to build homes, and also I find meeting them is making home for me in Bangladesh foreign lands. It's like all intertwined in this kind of experience. I created the work, Jigsaw collaborating with the Somalian community. So it's a beautiful experience for me. They said the whole process is very, very beautiful.
Host 1:28:13
While you were there, in addition to coming in contact with the Somalis, with the Bangladeshi, you also came in contact with Rohingya. Can you tell us about your experiences there?
Min Ma Naing 1:28:24
At the time my art school warned me not to go to Cox's Bazar because I'm not going with the journalist visa so I can be at risk. So, I couldn't go, buta lot of the time I was asked about Rohingya issue by my Bangladeshi friends and I had no clear answer. I could tell like, what is what is wrong, but I couldn't tell them the real answer at that time because the Rohingya issue is very complex. And also, I didn't specialize [in Rohingya Issue], so I couldn't tell the real answer to them. A lot of people like question me, why didn't you focus on the Rohingya issue in Bangladesh?, but I want to tell about the exploitation of the Burmese, because I'm from Burmese community, so I have to tell this story. Yes, I would like to tell Rohingya story, but there are also limitations for me to get access and everything, so I couldn't risk my life going there. So, I got a bit of pressure, because everybody was like to me while you were in Bangladesh, why don't you do the Rohingya story?
Host 1:30:08
So, that was really a dynamic and diverse experience that you went through while you were in Bangladesh, and moving now back to Myanmar, another project you worked on, which meant a lot to you was investigating the trafficked women in Shan State. I think this is a story of relevance today, we won't get into this actually, this will be the subject of future podcasts with those people who are carrying these investigative pieces. But there are these terrible criminal principalities that are forming all over Shan state right now, often Chinese run, and they're some of the aftermath of the coup. And yet in Shan State, there's been a long history of all kinds of illicit activities. And one of the things that you spent some time investigating and exploring was trafficked women. So tell us about that.
Min Ma Naing 1:30:59
That story, the interest in human trafficking from Myanmar to China, came from my experience as a teacher trainer. I was doing teacher training to one private school in Lashio, and I had a chance to meet some teachers from different villages. From interacting with them I know some girls are not coming back and the girls, they went to China, they lost contact. I keep hearing it, and so I was like, oh, there's something going on. Because at that time media role in Myanmar is not that open so we didn't hear that kind of story easily if you live in Yangon. That moment strikes me, like when I become a photographer, this is also something I want to tackle. So, this is one story that I'm really interested in even before I became a photographer. As a Burmese and going to the northern Shan state is complex, because there's not just Shan, there are also Kachin, Ta'ang, so it's a diverse community. I really couldn't go purely as a Burmese photographer, so I gave photography training at the local resource center, LRC to the youth from different ethnic groups. Although I know the trafficking story from when I was a teacher, I didn't know the full scope. By teaching photography to the youth from the ethnic groups, I got to know the complexity of the area more, and although I give them training, they taught me about my future project of trafficking. Then after that, I collaborated with one of the trainees, he's Wa and Pa-O mixed so he has two languages. We investigated that pieces together, because most of the traffickers are Wa, and they came to Pa-O villages. My collaborater knows Wa language, but we pretend he doesn't know it and so he gets some information. So, we know when the Chinese men are coming to find the bride, not only trafficking the woman from the Shan State to China, the Chinese men come and look at the woman villagers in Shan state. So, we got this kind of inside news and we got to know who is a trafficker. Also thanks to my another trainee whose father is religious leader in Lahu, we could build trust with the Lahu community. Then I got access to the trafficker. If I was a parachute photographer, if I didn't invest my time, I wouldn't have had a chance to meet with a trafficker, and also the Chinese men who come to find brides in Shan stae. It's kind of a self-funded project, because I can't tell anyone when the project will be finished, because meeting the trafficker and the Chinese men is also very random. I cannot tell like, okay, within two months I can tell the story or within two months, I can photograph the trafficker. I made seven trips, out of seven trips, I had a chance to meet with a trafficker two times. The nature of this kind of work does not fit with the news culture. Yeah, it's a story that I couldn't have done without the help of my trainees from the workshop.
Host 1:36:55
What a diverse array of stories you've been able to cover in that position, and cover it from photojournalist aspect, and from a storytelling aspect. And not only have you told all these stories, but you've also been a part of establishing a certain collective that support and help women storytellers and photojournalists. We can't say the name [of the collective] for safety reasons, which I'm very sorry about because the name is very interesting, and something that could be unpacked in terms of looking at Burmese history, and name choices in other revolutionary periods. So name aside, can you tell us about why this collective was formed, and what it was doing prior to the coup?
Min Ma Naing 1:37:39
Yeah, when I was a journalist for Myanmar Times, I was the only woman photographer there, and most of my colleagues and friends are male photographers. So it's like, we can share some experiences, but sometimes when I share the experiences of my harassment, or of my safety, because as a woman photographer if I go to the areas like Northern Shan state or Sittwe, or whenever I go, I've faced problem with the men, because I'm a woman traveling alone, so I always say that I'm married. I always wear my ring on my ring finger, so I'm married, and I say things like my husband is waiting for me at the hotel. So this kind of experience my male colleagues couldn't understand and when I share it, they kind of downplay my security concern and things like that. I needed a safe space to discuss those things, but I don't know any woman photographers out there so I started a woman photographer club. It's not like helping or supporting the woman photography, it's more for myself, because I don't know who the woman photographers are out there. So, it's an informal woman photographer club, and we gather weekly, then we had a chance to work on a project with the help of the statement art from New York City. All the participants are woman photographers, and we become close during that workshop. We also like gathering, so after the workshop, we decided if we want to tell stories together we needed to form a collective. Then we started working on short stories, and then some people quit and some people keep going so we, five founding members, decided to start a women collective togehter. It's about building a safe space and platform for woman photographers. It started it for ourselves first, and then it grew. We had more photographers, and we started to share, contribute photography skills to the woman photographers through mentorship and training in different parts of the country. So then, we are building a community, and that's what is lacking in Myanmar. If we talk about photography in Myanmar, the majority people only recognize photojournalism, because photojournalism flourished with the Saffron Revolution. So it started with striking photos from the photojournalists in that period. So, people's mind is always stuck with photojournalism. We needed a platform for storytellers who used languages other than reportage, so we are filling the gap in Myanmar photography industry. Before the coup we were really active and we even planned to hold a photo-festival in 2021 October. We already got the grant, and because photography is seen in Myanmar as very Western, so it leaves a gap for some photographers who have a language barrier. If you know English, you have more opportunity to attend workshops or had a chance to meet with a curator, so we don't want that anymore. So, we wanted to do a locally-ran photo week and showcase local photographers, and we wanted talk about photography in Burmese. And if the international audience want to come and they come with an interpreter, we are focusing only on the Myanmar photography. We planned a lot like that, but the coup happened in February. We just couldn't continue our collective journey, everyone in the collective are in different places, like some are displaced, some are in exile. Our life paths have shifted, so we couldn't give full commitment like before, so for this period we are in a hiatus stage.
Host 1:44:31
Yeah, I'm sorry about that. Before we close, there's a couple of very interesting statements that you said elsewhere that I want to bring here and unpack the meaning of those. One of those statements is that the experience of doing photography and storytelling for you has made you a natural introvert. It's made you more confident in doing that work. Can you describe how you characterize yourself as an introvert and to what degree photography has changed the way that you understand yourself and the relation to the world?
Min Ma Naing 1:45:11
For me, I'm interested in human story, but I'm very shy to start talking and approach people. So, when I started photography as a hobby in Hong Kong, I was not really awkward with a camera and I started to approach people and started have random conversations. I enjoyed the process of getting access to the people. I needed to be really conscious sometimes, because having camera helped me connect with people, but sometimes having camera is a kind of power dynamic between you and the people you are shooting. I know what my purpose is with the camera, I am more direct and I know more of myself. Without the camera, I'm not confident to approach people, ask questions and have a natural conversation. Before that even if I am interested in story, I didn't have get access to the people, naturally, but the camera helped me. I must say that being a teacher trainer also helped my photography, because being a teacher trainer, I need to be a good listener. A part of our training is being a good listener, so it's a skill. I always think I started photography really late, in my 30s, and why did I waste my time doing the teacher training, and sometimes I get frustrated. But later I reflected, okay, the experience of a teacher trainer opened a lot of doors, and I listened more carefully and I listened to the stories. And by listening to people, they also trust me more. I got really good access to stories, for example the access to the trafficker and also to the story of Meiktila. So without being a teacher trainer, I don't think I will be a photographer.
Host 1:48:07
Yeah, life journeys happen in interesting and unusual ways. That's beautiful. I have one last question to unpack something you said previously; there's this expression about how journalism or storytelling is hearing the voiceless. You really disagree with the statement, and have gone on to say how storytelling is essentially selfish, which seems to somewhat contradict what you said about the quality of good listening, although I'm sure these are superficial contradictions. So, can you describe why you don't like this phrase that you're trying to hear the voiceless and why you think that storytelling is fundamentally a selfish endeavor?
Min Ma Naing 1:48:56
I don't like the term like a voiceless, becuase actually we can admit that we couldn't hear or are not able to hear it. They have their voice and, it's we who fail to hear them. The word itself, voiceless and giving the voice, give the hierarchy to the journalist, to the photographer, so it's power dynamic, which plays a big role in journalistic story telling. For me, storytelling is not a one-person job rather it's an orchestrated job from me and the people in the story together. Otherwise, we will just come up, in not all the cases, with assumptions that we are their voice and we are telling the story. The word voiceless is kind of wrong for me.
Host 1:50:12
Right, it sounds colonial almost. That's all the questions I have for you. It's been wonderful to hear your whole journey personally, professionally, and how it's intersected with all these elements of recent Burmese history. What we're living through today, and in future history we'll see how your work has woven its thread into these very impactful years and very hard years in Myanmar. So aside from anything I asked you, was there anything else you wanted to talk about before we go?
Min Ma Naing 1:51:00
Thanks for the channel. Photographers or artists, out there whether you're in Myanmar or outside, I think sometimes we have a societal pressure to produce or we have to do revolutionary projects. But sometimes, we need to take a break and according to my experience your mental health can make you take a break. For me being alive is also very revolutionary. I guess being alive itself require resolve; they really want us to fall down, but we are alive, so being alive is a revolutionary work. So, I want everybody to be like healthy mentally and physically.
Host 1:52:02
That's beautiful, thank you for leaving us with that. That's really great, and thank you for all the time you took today to share your story. For whatever reason, even as the conflict and Myanmar continues to worsen, it somehow continues to be shut out of the Western media news cycle. And even when the foreign media does report on the conflict, it's often presented as a reductionist, simplistic caricature that prohibits a more thorough understanding of the situation. In contrast, our podcast platform endeavors to portray a much more authentic, detailed and dynamic reality of the country and its people, one that nurtures deeper understanding and nuanced appreciation. Not only do we ensure that a broad cross section of ideas and perspectives from Burmese guests regularly appear on our platform, but we also bring in foreign experts, scholars and allies who can share from their experience. But we can't continue to produce at this consistency, and at the level of quality we aim for without your help. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a foreign currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement (CDM), families of deceased victims, internally displaced person (IDP) camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries, education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies, COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation funds supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by a nonprofit mission Better Burma. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can visit betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/betterburma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon, Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search Better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support. Prayers