Transcript: Episode #245: Barry Lapping
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Host 0:25
whether one is listening to this in Myanmar or from outside the country we know what is a very difficult time for those of us who hold the golden land and its people in our hearts and trying times like these we can all use a bit more care and compassion in our lives. So on behalf of the team here at insight Myanmar, I would like to say in the traditional way meta as offered, may you be free from physical discomfort may you be free from mental discomfort may You not meet dangers or May you live a peaceful and happy life and May all beings be free and come out of suffering. And with that, let's move on to the show
Host 2:23
We're pleased to welcome for this episode of insight Myanmar podcast, Barry Lapin who is going to talk about his spiritual journey where it intersects with India and Burma, particularly the lineage largely Burmese lineage of Sn Goenka and his current role in being a teacher in Massachusetts in the SN kalank have a passionate organization. We're gonna go back to the beginning and get to present day. So Barry, thanks so much for taking the time to join us for this chat.
Barry Lapping 2:54
You welcome and I'm happy to be here. JELA.
Host 2:58
Yeah, so great. Let's, there's a lot to cover. It's, we'll try to get in as much as we can. But as we do with many of these interviews, let's start to where it began. So before your early interest in spirituality and meditation and travel, tell us a bit about your growing up and your family life. Well,
Barry Lapping 3:16
I am from outside of New York City about 50 miles north on the Hudson River. And a traditional middle class upbringing went to public high school went to university is part of the State University of New York. But one story I remember very well is when I was in eighth grade, my mother asked me, What do you want to be when you grew up? And I'd said to her, I remember saying clearly I just want to be happy. And I was not, I was not happy. When I did all the things a quote bad kid would do. As far as in toxic kids in high school, toxic kids in college. I did finish college, I did graduate with an engineering degree in 1969. And at that time, as many of your listeners will remember, it was the middle of the Vietnam War. And much like one of your other interviewees, Michael Stein. I wasn't very happy in this country. At that time. I had gone to Woodstock, I travelled around the country a bit. But there was certainly something missing. And consequently, I ended up again, like Michael, I ended up in Israel with the idea that I would live on a kibbutz for the rest of my life. I always love the idea of working very hard. But for the common good, not necessarily just to make a living. It wasn't just about money. So at that time on a kibbutz I did work very hard, but was for the common good of all the people who live there. But at that point, I was told that you are Jewish, you belong in Israel, and consequently you belong in the Israeli army as well. And at that point, I said, Well, I didn't join the army in the US. And I certainly was not going to join the army in Israel. And fortunately, you know, I was looking through an old Life magazine at that time on the kibbutz in Israel. And it was when I saw a two page picture black and white picture of a young American, sitting in the mountains of New Mexico, watching the sunrise come up, he was sitting in full lotus position. Absolutely beautiful picture and alarms just went off in my head, you got to go to India. I knew nothing about India. But I saw that picture. I was determined. I ran off to Tel Aviv and I bought a book on yoga. And I remember in that book, the last thing that was listed as far as benefits of yoga was it was number nine. And it said, the complete purification of all psychosomatic illnesses. And it just rang some more bells. This is exactly what I was looking for. And very soon after that, with two friends from college, a married couple, we flew to Turkey from Israel, and started that same overland journey that a number of your interview interviewees have already spoken about. It was hitchhiking, it was buses, it was walking. It was through Turkey, Iran, up to the Caspian Sea in Iran, which was wonderful, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and then on to India. And I remember my very first night in India, we spent that night in a train station at the border. And an old man there at the station was teaching me how to drink water through my nose and customs people had bought me my first cup of chai, and it was like coming home when I walked across the border, from Pakistan to India. It was clearly coming home. I was so comfortable there and immediately went up and spent a couple of months in Kashmir. And Kashmir at that time. It was no war going on in Kashmir. And it was absolutely beautiful and wonderful. And then from there, after a couple of months, it was on to Nepal, swam boo Katmandu. And just live there but was still looking, didn't know what I was doing. And then one day, a woman who was living in the same house, as I was said, Well, I'm going to go with you know, about a beach on the west coast of India for the winter. And I said, Well, I'm going to Puri, which was a beach on the east coast of India. And she said, Let's go to boat Gaia, together, and then you go your way or go my way. So we did that. We went to Bodhgaya together and she was falling asleep everywhere we went and turns out she had hepatitis. And the last place we went to to look for a place to stay was the Burmese Vihara, who welcomed us with open arms. And getting to the Burmese Vihara was also like coming home. So very quickly. Within a few days, the ninja D was there. Joseph was there. A number of other people were there who were Graham White was there the monk from the Thai monk, Joseph Goldstein. And his mother came very soon. And I remember one of those first nights when Melinda was there. We were all upstairs in the meditation room at the Vihara. And Melinda de came up. And he said, my name is Melinda de and I teach Vipassana meditation. And this is just exactly what I needed to hear. So all of those travels, were leading me at that time to Bodhgaya. So I spent about two and a half months practicing exactly what Menendez you taught me. So he was my first teacher. But then one night, he came up to the up to the meditation hall. And he said tomorrow, my friend SN Goenka is coming to teach a 10 day course I want all of you to sit that course. Sure enough, the next day going to do arrived.
Host 9:08
So that's great. That's that's a great wind up to what a special journey of going to India and looking for looking for something actually, that's where I was gonna go next is that I wanted to make that connection. You talked about seeing this, this picture of this young man watching a sunset in lotus position. And that driving you to India. So did you did you know exactly what you were looking for there? Were you looking for some vague sense of spirituality or something more specific with some type of yoga or passionate meditation practice or where was that connection of that initial interest and seed that then led you to something in India?
Barry Lapping 9:48
Yeah, well, I think the seed was already planted. Because I knew I wanted it to be happy and I knew I was miserable. So the seed was there. It just like I had told my mother back in eighth grade. I just want to be Happy and going through college, especially university days, you know, it was a time of LSD, it was a time of smoking a lot of grass. And, you know, I started having issues just within my own psyche. I just kept doing it anyway and doing a lot of alcohol. You know, eventually I stopped taking acid, I stopped smoking dope, I stopped alcohol. And I was still having the same sort of, let's say psychic or mental issues, mental health issues. And all of a sudden, I've realized there is nothing left to stop, this is me, this is what's in me, I need to find something that I can deal with my stuff. And that led to everything else that led to eventually finding my way to boat Gaia. And, you know, the moment. I mean, when I met Melinda de, I was just in love with him from the very beginning. He was my first teacher. And I practice exactly what he told me for two and a half months. And one quick little aside, you know, if we were mindfully walking to Bodhgaya, into the village for for lunch, say, and we were mindfully going really slowly, it would take a very long time to get to lunch. You know, so it was it. We just tried to incorporate everything he taught in everything we did. And in the evenings, he would come up, and he would give discourses and manipulate he was great. He was so well educated. And he was like a mother to us. You know, he was so easy to be with. He was simple, and loving. And Wangka Ji, he was more like father and minion, God was more like mother. But you know, once I met ytg, and he was very close to my energy. In fact, my very first course that next day, Melinda Menendez is sat on the floor next to Gwinnett County who was on a Dyess and face the students. So he essentially was going to do his first assistant, even though he had never even practice, the technique they're going to do was teaching, they were that close. This is about a year or two before going to his wife Mataji came to India. So there's a lot of interaction between manildra G and going to G. Now, why did you come to Bogota at that time to teach one course. And it turns out, he sat for courses, or he conducted for courses with and then after that he did his own self course at the Mahabodhi temple every night. And I can tell you a little bit about even the first courses that he taught in the English. I think it would be good for people to hear that. There was a couple who was living up in Dalhousie, which is up in the up in the Himalayas, it used to be a sort of a summer resort for like lieutenant's and lower end officers for the British British Army. And so there's some, you know, Decent Homes there and all of that. So it was a couple living there who used to be cooks in the hippy days of Haight Ashbury. So they found themselves in Dalhousie, and they wanted to learn how to meditate. And I would say this is probably around September or so of 1970. So they wrote to a number of Buddhist teachers in Burma and Thailand, probably Cambodia, Laos, I think there was about 13 Different teachers they wrote to U BA. Khin was one of those teachers and he wrote back to them, and he said to them, my teaching representative in India is SN Goenka. And at the same time, he wrote to glenkinchie. And as you've heard from other other people, quite good, he was extremely devoted to Ooba kin who bucket was his teacher and I've never seen gratitude like that in my life. And so, again, said to him, I want you to go up to Dalhousie and teach these people, there was about 12 or 13 people out there who did that first course. So he went and he was very unsure of his English, he spoke mostly Hindi, Burmese, you know, he was a businessman. So we did have English, but not that good. So he was concerned about that. So you said the first night's discourse, it took about 20 minutes, you could only speak in English for 20 minutes. Next day, 20 minutes. He said By the third day, it was one hour, it just started flowing very easily. It was not an issue at all. And you know, to this day, the discourses are not that different than they were back in 1970. So, from Dalhousie, I think I think most maybe all of those students, those 12 or 13 students, followed him to New Delhi, where he did the first quarter, the second quarter in English. And at that time, ROM das and his group of people they were in Delhi, I believe it was at a yoga conference or something they wanted to meditate but they couldn't, the time wasn't there so Goenka D told them to come to Bodhgaya, which they did. So we did the first course with going to GE in December of 70, in Bodhgaya. And then he's he went over to the summit via ashram, a Gandhi ashram. And did a second course there with rom das and his group, and told all of us at the Vihara just got down to sift the group settings with us, which we did. And then he came back to the Burma's be hard to teach well, it turns out another couple of courses. And during one of those courses in Jack, early January, January 19, actually he got a telegram saying that Ooba, Ken had died in Burma. And obviously a big shock that going, he had never expected that. And so he finished the course, he finished the next course. And then he did his own self course it was only during that self course, he said, with one other person, that self course where they would sit all night in the Mahabodhi temple. And they would rest during the day, or meditate in their own rooms. And then you go back to the temple. And he did that. I think it was a 10 day course. But he said that during that that self course that very first self course is when he said that to himself that he was going to devote the rest of his life to the teaching of Vipassana meditation. And that's a real balls. Are they rolling in India?
Host 16:27
Gosh, I just that's that's that's a really interesting history and background I have in mind is this really with several directions, I want to go and finding out more information. But um, I guess I'm one of the things I'm thinking is just as going to G is starting to his teaching career. I think one of the things that's on my mind is that for many of us listening who have taken any kind, of course, and the capacity for almost all of us, we don't we can't really conceptualize glenkinchie as anything other than a master meditation teacher, a teacher of teachers, a businessman and organizer, everything he's done with the movement and the organization. And it kind of reminds me about like, you know, you have your beloved grandfather, and you can't really ever imagine your grandfather being anything but a grandfather. And yet, when going cuz he's starting his mission, we have to put ourselves back there and remember that he doesn't really have a lot of experience doing this, you know, he's been a student in Burma. And he did, there is a note that will begin at one point to come to Kulin and, and they did something with a couple of courses there. I don't know what that was, I don't even really know what would have been constituted what would have constituted the course back at that time, and the way that they imagined it,
Barry Lapping 17:39
you know, Ooba can had a very strong sense that glenkinchie His mission in India and the rest of the world was different than his own mission in Burma. He knew that he was going to places where Dhamma was not established. India, the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, Europe, all of that. So Uber, Ken wanted going to do to get acclimated to be able to be able to conduct courses to teach in all kinds of places, places that you would never would ever want to go into. And he did that. He taught in guest houses he taught in churches, he taught him masks. He taught at hotels, he taught everywhere society, knowing what blankets his mission was going to be he took them to a number of different places in Burma to conduct courses, in facilities in in vibrations, if you like that we're going to be similar to what he was going to be doing when he left Burma. And, and keep in mind that Ooba can himself is the one that wanted to let go to to India. Right. That was his dream was to teach himself outside India, but due to the political situation in Burma, even back then, he was never able to get out. It was just collected his good fortune that the Government of Burma gave him a passport and a visa, but only earmark it for India. And that was only for a period of three months to be able to go teach his mother and father in India, which is the the reason he originally went to India in the first place. So he told us first horse in a guest house in the middle of Bombay, in a place that I have eventually did sit of course and myself, but it was in the middle of the sheet metal bizarre. So all you hear is these people banging on a sheet metal all night long. So this is, I believe my own view, is it that side you wanted to get him acclimated to teaching in all kinds of situations.
Host 19:36
Right. And we've had other guests who have come on and have pointed out that the way that Goenka G was able to formulate his teaching and his connections and networks that audience and such in India they their ways that wouldn't necessarily have have occurred to a more traditional Burmese Buddhist as we can. And so when he starting out his teachings career, I understand that he had some kind of training with Uber can, although I don't know how much that really could prepare him for what was ahead. But I wonder if like thinking back as before we get into going because this master teacher, this leader of, of the organization of a movement, really an international worldwide movement, which is the way we all kind of think of him today, can you share a bit about your sentiments or perception of what really stood out if you can remember, if you could put yourself back there. In contrast, perhaps even or perhaps the seeds of what would develop into something greater later of how you might characterize him as an early teachers, he's finding his footing as he's charting new territory, exploring a new path and setting the kind of trial and error of setting something up and seeing where he has to where he has to change things and move ahead. You know, he
Barry Lapping 20:48
did change things over the years, I just give you a simple example. You know, you've done courses Joe, so you know, the group settings with the teacher were always eight to nine in the morning, 233 30 in the afternoon. And we do six to seven now in the evening. But traditionally, the old that third group setting was eight to nine in the evening. So we people would sit six to seven themselves, then the discourse, and quick get you started that way. But the DIS he has discourses quickly got too long. And that group sitting become maybe 45 minutes era, half an hour. So in that sense, he changed things. So we made the group sitting six or seven in the evening. But I would say more than anything, it was his ability and his skill set to communicate to large groups of people to masses of people, and his deep, deep understanding of the the essence of the Dhamma not just the tradition of what he grew up in himself, but the very essence of dharma. And he often said that, you know, Blanca de did his first course I think it was like 5456, something like that. And then he said he spent 14 years with Ooba can just, you know, his business was all nationalized. So he had time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he spent a lot of time at the center a lot of time with U BA, Khin, which he calls his golden years. And he said that U BA. Khin had been training him all that time and he did not even know it. So, right from the very beginning, when could his skill set was already there, his ability to discourses was already there. Like he says, he used to give discourses on on the Bhagavad Gita a new point of shod. And other things he was, he was a master Hindi speaker, right from the beginning. And so that skill set was there Oopah can trained him, taught him this practice. And, you know, one thing I find very interesting, even from the very beginning we're going to do when I met him, he, this this courses that he taught, they would never about going to GE, you know, he always said, I am just a vehicle science, he's a teacher. In fact, he even told me once, when I did something that he was not real pleased about in India, he said, You have to be really careful because you are a direct representative of Ooba kin. And so you have to behave accordingly. glenkinchie his behavior was exemplary. His, his adherence to morality was exemplary, his ability to speak about the technique in terms of in a universal way that still adhered So specifically, perfectly with the Buddhist teachings, even in the Pali scriptures, discourses, other teachers etc. Gate you have this unique ability to be able to work with anybody from any culture, and be able to put the Buddhist teachers in words that those people would be able to relate to, and be able to practice. So it was never about going koji and even now, today, the proof is it is not about going could you even though we are using his recorded materials, it is about the technique. It is about the practice that is important.
Host 24:13
And I think one of the amazing things to go back and look at in that period talked about with interview with Michael and several others I, I keep coming back to it because I find it such a fascinating lens of analysis is just to really highlight how unique it is. You have a Indian Hindu who's coming out of Burma going through all the trauma of the World War Two and colonialism. And then there's a military dictatorship, he's living in a closed military dictatorship. And he's then interacting with these young Western hippies representing this counterculture that even elders in their own country don't understand, at the moment don't understand what they're thinking, what they're believing what they want to do, what they're wearing, and that they're that he's able to not just teach these individuals but really form these deep connections to Despite this huge cultural divide between them. And I think that the fact that these by the circumstances of history, these hippies, the Western hippies found themselves in India at that time and Goenka was there to teach. And that's such a connection was made. I think that's, that's something sometimes overlooked. And something I find so fascinating was that he had the ability to reach that community and, and teach them on such a deep level really,
Barry Lapping 25:30
you know, it was, you know, he says, in his 10 day, discourses he did on day, 10. Evening, if you remember, he says, people come for two reasons. One is they already have a seed of dharma. And they come to develop it. And two, they come just for the seed of Dhamma. Now, many of those Westerners you're talking about, they clearly already had the seed of dharma, and go into India at that time, not even knowing why they were going to India was a magnetic force. It was purely magnetic, I had no idea what I was doing as the most of the people. But all of a sudden, I'm acquainted you this, this Hindu man coming out of Burma of nobody had ever heard of him, right? The mag, the magnetism that he had, and it wasn't just hippies, it was everybody. I mean, his all his first courses were in Hindi. And he is, he certainly could relate to the Indian community. And Indians all grew up thinking that, you know, you don't believe in the Buddha's teaching, you may, you may accept him as an incarnation of God, but his teachings don't have anything to do with them. You don't believe in God, he doesn't believe in soul, all that sort of thing. When did he was able to navigate all of that, based on his personal experience in Burma, because of the technique. And also, because this is exactly what he went through in Burma, when he first started practicing, he had those same as same conditioning. Now, so he first started teaching Indians, but then Ooba, Qin tells him to teach the Westerners as well. And he took that same skill set of communication and ability. I mean, the Buddha himself gave a discourse which Gregory has repeated about qualities of a good teacher. And one of those qualities is knowing the people you are trying to teach. And to some extent, knowing the cultural background of those people, and being able to communicate with them in a way that they will understand the practice itself. Now, granted, he did not really understand the hippies. But he related to them, he knew his mission was to spread seeds of Dharma all over the world, he knew that. And all of a sudden, he sees people from all over the world coming to Him, knowing who am I, but he knew that these people were coming to him to get the Dharma. So even though he may not have understood their their background, or their culture, he knew what they needed to get. And he was able to communicate with them in such a way that they did not have to call themselves Buddhist, or Hindu or Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim or anything else. These were all people. And I would say, a great majority of them, who were only looking for something to clean up their own minds. And keep in mind, the 60s, the 70s was a sort of a cultural revolution in the West itself, considering you know, the the musical groups, the Beatles, the stones, that doors, all of these people, it was a time of searching. And then the Beatles themselves show up in India, you know. And so it was, it was a time where anybody who had that seed was going to be attracted, and how they got there, by boat by walking by bus, by horseback, whatever it was, they were going, and having no idea of really, except that I'm looking for something that's going to be helped me in a world that was so screwed up at that time, and it screwed up now. But what I think many of us knew was that we'd go to college, we finish college, we get jobs, who can make money, but we knew that was not the answer. I certainly knew that. And to be able to end up in India in this in this little town of Mount Gaya, Whoever heard of both Gaia, and make them an entity first and then going to GE and become very close to both of them. Clearly, there was a powerful connection before we ever got to India. And I don't think it had a lot to do with India. I thought it has to do with seeds of Dhamma that many of these people already had great that he was merely a catalyst to once again awaken that seed and help people to practice because he knew there was only this practice that was going to help human beings. It wasn't going to Gee helping human beings it was the practice and the technique that was helping you human beings.
Host 30:07
Right? So you take your first course, and after a few months of having basically my ninja as your teacher, and then go and take this 10 day course and I imagine this must have had a huge impact on you. And so describe what happened to you personally after the course and how you were hooked?
Barry Lapping 30:23
Well, you know, the moment I met Guang TG, he walked into the, into the meditation hall upstairs into Burmese Vihara. And as he as he still does, he started out the course by chanting. And basically that chanting is gratitude to the Buddha's Dharma, the Sangha, and his own teacher and family and all of that. As soon as I heard him, I felt in my own mind, this is it, I just met my dharma father, my Dharma teacher, I knew that there wasn't even a question about it. And you know, I had nowhere to go, I had a little bit of money to live on. And so I was just going to stay there until that week was over. The one was he was teaching, I was going to stay there. And so my own commitment to what he was doing, and what he was teaching, became very strong, very quick. And it satisfied that thirst that I had, and that, that need to find something I knew how screwed up I was, a but all of a sudden, I knew I had a practice that was going to help me do that, regardless of timeframes. I practice this for the rest of my life. And that was 52 years ago, and I haven't stopped yet. And even after those horses, Joe up, you know, going to the left Burmese Bihar and after his own self course, so he goes back to Bombay. And he carries on with his own schedule, mostly in Hindi. And many of us, I remember Joseph and Sharon and her partner at the time, me, friends, we all went up to Dalhousie, and we rented places to live for, say, six months. And so we would spend six months in the mountains. And a lot of that time was just doing self course, after self course, after self course, there were no recordings, no groups, any chanting tapes, or any of that, we just sat and that's all we did either sit or walk in the mountains. And we did that until the next winter, when we went back to Bo Diane Blanca de was there again.
Host 32:21
So it's this small kind of largely Western spiritual community of these early practitioners, the first students of blankest courses that are then after they take these courses, then forming this kind of transitory spiritual community and going to different places India, probably according to the the climate at the time, and that you could really kind of point to as the early start of going Cadiz mission, is that correct? You
Barry Lapping 32:49
could say that I think the early start of his mission was probably in Burma, with Sergey. But you know, he did most of his courses in those days were in Hindi. So he developed a very strong following. Also in India, people, Indian students, who maybe were not so satisfied with just blindly accepting scripture or gurus or anything like that. And, you know, as Blanca de said, when he did his own first course, all of a sudden, by day five or day six, he said, This is just applied Bhagavad Gita. This is applied punish, as this is the technique that will enable you to understand all of those scriptures. And I would expand that, to say that it's also the technique to help you understand the scriptures of your own religion that you grew up in, if you grew up in any religion at all. And I tell you a quick story. When I first came home from India, it was with my family in Peekskill, New York. And I remember I grew up in the Jewish faith. And I remember, they needed another man to go to, to go to the synagogue to till they had enough people to have a service. And I did that because I had nothing else to do. I went, I didn't mind and the old cancer of that synagogue who was quite close to our family, he said to me, he said, I was afraid you were not Jewish anymore because of what you did. And I said to him, Reverend diamond with I am a better do than I've ever been in my life. For the first time in my life, I'm actually practicing Sheila morality, I'm trying to clean up my own mind, which makes me a better human being, which will make me a better Jew. And he accepted that totally accepted and I think that is true of many of us who came back as religious zealots or converted, anything we came back as, as better human beings with a technique of how to keep getting better.
Host 34:52
That's really interesting. And it's all happening in this again, we have to say in this tumultuous time of in the 1960s, the Vietnam War and some of the tension isn't America and you're overseas going through this. And, you know, it's interesting, you started this whole conversation out by referencing that you you knew you weren't happy. And, and I want to follow up with that I want to share a bit of a personal anecdote with my first experience on the course and then relate it back to you. My first experience was very different in the sense that I was, I graduated from college in America, I was living in Japan, I was living in Tokyo, I had this robust group of friends, I was in the big city, after coming from a small town where not much ever happened. And I as I went into my first course, I thought I was the happiest I've ever been in my life, I was having I, my, my, I mean, I remember at the time, I would want to even like, tear off the calendars of the monthly calendars and just save them for posterity. Because I would look at them and be like, Oh, my God, every day is filled with all these exciting things I'm doing and, of course, the being a young person, the nightlife at that time, the intoxicants, the circle of friends, culture, everything. And after my first course, I had this profound realization, that really shook me to my core that was like, I'm not happy, you know, and I thought I was so happy, I thought that I was, I was living the life, this is everything I had kind of aspired to, leading up to that experience. And at the end of my first course, I was like, I am really not happy, I'm really suffering. And I thought this was everything I wanted, I got everything I wanted for, you know, my, my young age at that time, but it's not fulfilling me in the way that I thought it would. And, and so that set me on a path, to start to investigate why these things that I was being driven to, that I thought would make me happy, were ultimately so unfulfilling in ways I hadn't realized, until I had that shock of an intensive meditation experience. You on the other hand, we're going into your first course, knowing you weren't happy, from an even younger age, and searching for searching for happiness, searching for that happiness inside or, or the mystery of what it would take to, to, to to explore that misery and to find that happiness. And so with your first course experience, and that kind of binding question that you yourself referenced to start this whole talk off this, this early insight when your mother asks you of realizing you're not happy. So what did that first course and the subsequent courses start to do to you personally, in terms of recognizing and and feeling a pathway to exploring this relationship between suffering and happiness?
Barry Lapping 37:35
You know, I think that first course I did, did exactly the same thing as the first course you did. Meaning, you know, when you and you know, this by experience, Steaua, that when you do this practice, it's so quickly and so directly goes to the heart of the issues, the deep rooted cause of our own misery inside, you may have been under the illusion or delusion that you were already happy, I knew I was quite miserable looking for happiness. But the fact is, we both found the same thing, that the cause of the problem is within us, you know, you experienced it, by realizing maybe the ephemeral or impermanent nature of all the things you were doing, that was such a temporary happiness, there was no lasting happiness there. I on the other hand, knew that I had a lot of complexes inside, and was just looking for a way to be able to learn how to develop the understanding of them. And this technique did exactly that it did exactly that, at that time. And it still does that for anybody that comes to a course. And that means very quickly, indirectly, a person goes to the heart of the issue, which is our reaction to the sensations that we feel in the body, that may be caused from external sources, or internal mental conditioning. And once we realize that we all have this mental conditioning, and how we are continually reacting to it, by reacting to those physical sensations that we feel, we then have the opportunity to start coming out of that reaction, which means we have the opportunity to come out of the mental conditioning, or our karma or whatever we want to call it. And therefore we start with understand what is real happiness mean? And that means not being a slave to our own mental conditioning, and starting to decondition your mind Be passionate itself is a deconditioning process. Everything we do in our life, everything is conditioning ourselves conditioning our minds, from the moment we are born, and we are running after Pleasant, Pleasant, Pleasant and running away from unpleasant. The passion and Meditation allows us to observe both of those extremes. Learn the to experience the impact Human nature of them start to understand how that when I react to how I feel, I make myself unhappy. And therefore, if I understand that, I can slowly start to come out of the reaction, which means coming out of the conditioning, which means deconditioning the mind, which means I'll be a happier person. So actually the experience you had, and the experience that I had on that first course, is not much different.
Host 40:31
Sure, so, and you also reference how when you first came to India, your first teacher was when Indra that it was two and a half months that he initially taught you. And I curious in what ways you reference this. This deconditioning is running after pleasant running away from unpleasant that's observing sensations. As part of go Linkous teachings, how would you characterize those early teachings of when Indra you
Barry Lapping 40:59
know, I think it was really the same thing. You know, man, Andrew D, as you know, and you've heard, I mean, God was a Pali scholar Maninder de spent, I think about nine months practicing very intensively, under Mahasi. Side, ah, so manildra D was experiential, as well as intellectual, you knew both. So it was just a different starting point, you know, in that tradition, the way they learn from my understanding of my remembering, remembrance is, you know, you start with the observation of breath, but whatever else is arising, whether it be a physical sensation of thought, in emotion, whatever it happens to be, you observe that and when it's not there, you come back to the breath. So it's a starting point to develop concentration of the mind, and then move further from there. Granted, these technique was slightly different in the beginning, and that is okay, let's sharpen the mind first, by the practice of on upon for three days, or observation of respiration, and reach a stage, even in those first three days where you could start to feel physical sensations on the body, maybe related to the breath, maybe not related to the breath. But after that, and you start to really passionate, you're just trying to understand the arising and passing the impermanent nature of everything you feel, if you practice the technique, as taught by Melinda de, and as taught by many people in the West. Now, I believe, and I haven't done that in a long time, but I do believe it will go to the same place, you still no matter what happens, the student of the teachings of the Buddha has to reach a stage where they are feeling the arising and passing away of physical sensations. Because every one of those physical sensations is related to anything that is coming in contact with any sense store or with the mind, nothing arises in the mind, without a corresponding physical sensation on the body. And anything that comes in contact with any of our sense stores, physical, physical sense, stores, will also result in a physical sensation on the body. And the mind, which is constantly in touch with with the physical sensations of our body reacts to those sensations, ignorantly, it reacts with clinging, the craving, if it's pleasant and aversion and hatred, if it's unpleasant. So they're just different approaches to what I believe is the same result. And if you practice any of these techniques, as taught by the Buddha, in the Satipatthana, suta, you practice any of these, you have to reach a same stage, it all has to become one if you are practicing properly. And let's also keep in mind, whether you're practicing this tradition or that tradition, the very basis of any practice of the Buddhist teachings has to be morality. It's all about Sheila morality, concentration, samadhi, and the development of wisdom and in the technique the way go NTG taught it, which is the same as the way u BA, Khin taught it. That development of wisdom with the base of Sheila morality, is the only way to decondition the mind. You can develop mindfulness awareness, but if you're not developing awareness, with the understanding that everything you're you're aware of, is in a constant state of change experientially, it's just awareness, it will not decondition the mind. And so what really attracted me about going to G's approach to the practice of the teachings of the Buddha, where it was extremely direct. It was very fast, and took you to the heart of the problem quickly, where you could start to develop the kind of equanimity and wisdom needed to actually purify the mind. But what needs are taught would do the same thing, if practice sincerely with that same base of Sheila All
Host 45:01
right. And I do want to get to the rest of your story, I want to bookmark that of getting to how you, then your journey then took you to America and setting up the UN establishing the center in the US as well as your time in Burma, I just want to pause a bit on your trajectory. And, and note that for the listeners of where we're going and go a bit deeper into some of this more theoretical because I want to reference something that you brought up just before we interviewed offline, that you wanted, I think this is a good opportunity to do so that you wanted to speak to a concern or criticism that's been out there that the technique or the organization can sometimes appear, I think your word was narrow minded, or, or insular. And, and to give you a chance to expand on the both the criticism as you understand it, as well as your response and feeling that that might not be the case.
Barry Lapping 46:01
Yeah, I think those who feel that the this approach to the teaching of the Buddha, meaning languages teaching is, is somewhat limited, because it all revolves around physical sensations on the body. And we know from different suitors of the Buddha, specifically the Satipatthana suta, he talks about sensations he talks about the body, he talks about the mind and what arises on the mind, and here's going to be talking about physical sensations. Now, what I just said, was that whatever arises in the mind, or whatever comes in contact with any of our sense stores, manifests with a physical sensation on the body. For example, let's say I, in English language, we say, I feel depressed, I feel angry, I feel passionate, I feel whatever I feel, you feel that because something has arisen in the mind any of those things, and you feel them as physical sensations on the body. So this tradition of meditation immediately and directly goes to that physical sensation on the body, and allows the meditator to develop the understanding of a nature or impermanence with that physical sensation. So regardless of whether the sensation came from an exterior source, like someone yelling and screaming at me, external source, or it comes from an internal source, like an emotion on the mind, or a thought on the mind, so any of those other four other three psychic botanas, they all manifest with physical sensation on the body. In fact, if you know, I don't want to get too deep into theory here, but the actual law of dependent origination called Petit Osamu pada, or really as the law of karma is that all these things, this string of events happen, that manifest and culminate with a sensation, a physical sensation on the body. And then the mental part, the Veda, the experience of what's happening on the body comes into play. And because of our past conditioning, we react to those sensations. So the reality is that this approach, which to some may appear to be narrower, is actually completely open completely wide, and, and completely inclusive of everything that's happening, physical, mental, internal, external, because all of those things manifest with this physical sensations on the body. That's where we tie up the knots, that's where we can untie them. So it's very powerful and very direct path to the junction of where we make ourselves miserable, or where we can actually liberate ourselves. So not narrow minded at all, not a narrow path, but a totally all inclusive path.
Host 49:02
In my mind, when I was thinking of that criticism, I was thinking it takes two forms, one being the technique itself, and one being perhaps the language or organization around the technique, which we can get to in a moment, because you touched upon the first one, the first part of that in your answer. And so in looking at an examining the criticism that there could be narrowmindedness based on the technique focusing on the practice of physical sensation, I think here it would be important to highlight that and again, not to want to get too technical and want to bring as many listeners on the journey with us that maybe you haven't had this experience. But to break it down simply I think one of the thing that distinguishes this particular tradition which Glinka has also come out and said is the particular interpretation of Vedanta that other Buddhist traditions don't necessarily interpret the Pali word VEDA as being physical sensation and might interpret it as a mental feeling or something other than a physical feeling. Whereas this tradition is specifically focused on Vedanta as being a physical sensation and only physical sensation.
Barry Lapping 50:14
So maybe if you can, physical sensation is indeed a physical sensation, it's part of kya the body, it is the mind, the part of the mind called Veda is the part is mental, which experiences those physical sensations they're very different. But it's only the it's only VEDA, mental, that can experience the physical, When could you had many, many interactions with, with the Sangha, with monks, very highly regarded monks. And he explained all of this to them. And he was so good at simple explanations that they all understood, they did get it, what he was saying, for example, people would say, you know, your grandkid, you would often say, I'm not teaching Buddhism, I'm teaching Dhamma. And the monks were not so happy about that. But when you explain to them, you know, if you look in the scriptures, all of the Buddhist scriptures, you never see the word Buddhism. You see the word dharma, dharma is universal, the technique has to be universal. So whether we adhere to this approach to the teaching of the Buddha or another approach, every one of those approaches, and if you read the Sati, Putana, suta, every one of those approaches lead to the same thing, the arising and passing away of all phenomena. And how will you really know the arising and passing away of phenomena unless you directly experiencing them by feeling those phenomena. And like I said before, everything that arises internally, or externally manifest with a physical sensation on the body, and that's what the mind Veda is going to be reacting to Vedanta, being just part of the mind, one part of the mind. So this is not something outside of the teaching of the Buddha. But in my mind, I've shown actually the essence and the heart of what the Buddha taught, because let's keep in mind, what the Buddha wanted, was for people to get liberated, he's not just teaching a technique to make people feel better. The Buddha was teaching a technique to completely liberate the mind. And from my experience of quite a long time, I believe this is exactly what this technique does. I'm not criticizing and will go there. As far as criticizing any other practice, I do understand what manildra de taught, he was my first teacher, and I loved them. And I saw him shortly before he died. And I could tell you a sweet story about that, but I can't think of a sweeter human being the minority was, and with a depth of understanding, he talked when we could do so much regarding the Scriptures. And they had so many long conversations, that I think they understood each other really well. And, and respected each other really well. So those of us who criticize another tradition are generally fairly ignorant, we don't know what we're doing, we should concentrate on getting liberated ourselves.
Host 53:21
Sure. And in observing the physical sensations This is contact through there's often in the West, we talk about five senses and Buddhism, we have six, the sixth one being the mind is considered a sense store. And there's the observation of contact in one of the sense stores on the sense objects in the stores and see if you begin there's a paraphrasing here because I don't have this on hand. But in one of his talks, he referenced how one of the reasons they focus on sensation is that it's, it's much easier for students, especially a new student to be able to make this observation it's a it's a it's an observation that someone who hasn't isn't hasn't doesn't have a background in meditation doesn't have a background in Buddhist theory or Buddhism, especially since he wanted to teach people from different backgrounds it's how to stand out from those in his day in Burma, that sensation was of the sense doors of the sixth sense doors sensation was the one that was much easier for a student to come in and observe and then make progress him and and so there are other techniques in Burma today that will focus on the the the other sense stories and the observation of the others and stories especially mind and the mental concomitants of observing. Being able to observe the observe the the sense story of mind, which is I pause and saying that because for non meditator western audience that perhaps can be somewhat confusing to imagine how the mind has a sense store like the others, but that, that of of the six stores, it's the going to tradition and Uber kin that has taken the sensation as the one as the object of observation to note.
Barry Lapping 55:12
Yeah, and let me ask you a question about it. Let's say we are observing the mind. Someone says, just observe your mind. And anger arises in the mind, or fear or anxiety or depression or anything arises in mind, even a small thought, how can you observe that particular phenomena? How do you experience that phenomena? What do we say in English, I feel angry, I feel free, I feel anxious. Why? Because you feel it as a physical sensation on your body. So even if you were doing a purely Dharma new personal Chitta new persona, which means observation of mind, observation of the medical competence, even if you were doing just that, your practice has to lead to the point where you experience VEDA Vaid. The word Veda means experience, according to ITG, where you experience those mental things as physical sensations on your body, because the mind and the body are two sides of the same coin, you can't separate them. So no matter what the approach is, and going Digi certainly quotes many of the Buddha's suit does, where Buddha himself said, whatever arises on the mind manifest with physical sensations on the body, and explains that Oh, really well, if anybody wants to do the research. So what this technique does is it very rapidly because keep in mind when Ooba Kim was alive and teaching, he was a civil servant, he was a government official with very little time. So he taught he wanted to get right to the heart of the matter. He wanted to do something in a short period of time, that gave people something tangible, that they would be able to practice at home for the rest of their lives, whether they were Burmese, or American, or European or whatever they happen to be. And so he kind of taught something that wasn't, quote, the traditional Buddhism, he taught the essence of what the Buddha taught. And because it is only the essence of what the Buddha taught, that is going to give the results. And the results are the deconditioning of the mind or liberation of the mind.
Host 57:29
Well, also, in Ooba kins day you had himself as well as some of his disciples, mother, say, I'm on then Khatri. I'm just to name a couple who had extraordinary supernatural powers and supernatural being maybe that's not the best word for it. I'm not exactly sure what English word to put in there. But we're able to read minds and divine prophecies and spiritual potentialities, past lives, other realms, all kinds of things. And so it was you, as they say, We can rarely had a dry chorus, meaning that there was someone who reportedly attained almost every course he did, because of these. And we've had, we've conducted a number of interviews that many of them not released yet, but who've described in some detail, just fascinating how the circumstances around knowing the depth of practitioners that would come through these special beings as a part of IMC and being able to divine or understand when they were close, or what difficulties they were having, and the sort of specialized instructions and trainings that that they would give outside of the norm outside of the structure. They just based on how advanced those those teachers and some of those disciples were, that that I think, was not only about the technique itself that was being taught in those circumstances, but also those that were teaching and those that were at the center to be able to work in such unusual and dynamic ways with the students that were coming in based on what they were facing and their spiritual background and potentiality at the time as well.
Barry Lapping 58:59
You would you would, there's a story that Ooba can use this. He's the chant, only let very ready and ripe people a very good and develop param is come to me. And he did that because he had so little time and then going, could you be walking around IMC and chanting the same thing. And Ooba can hurt him and he said to glenkinchie He said, You should not chant that because that is not your job. I have limited time. I only want to come across people who I can really develop as much as possible. But Blanca G's job and Ooba can do this. His job was to reach masses of the world to throw seeds all over the world. And he did that really well. So there are very few people that have the kind of parmi or quality of the people that went to U ba Khin but there is something extraordinarily special about the people who wake as he came in contact us Especially those who stayed with him. And this is this is something that those people who came in contact with Ooba kid did not necessarily have. And that is the ability to serve, freely serve without expecting anything in return. So think of all of these Western students, European students, even Indian students, the first centers were in India, who developed to such an extent, and it's so much as the words glenkinchie Would you use would be enlightened devotion, not blind faith, but enlightened faith, that they wanted to help many, many other people. And so because of that motivation, because of that parmi, that quality, many centers have come up around the world, very few of those people who were with Uber kin had the opportunity to do that. But so many of the people in India, as well as in the West, had the opportunity to build centers, serve people without expecting anything returned, keeping in mind that, you know, no charges, no money involved, just giving, and continue to do that. So that quality of being able to serve was something that was absolutely critical and necessary for the development of Dhamma in the world, that's this tradition, or any other tradition. And that was not something that many people in Burma at that time had the opportunity to, to do, we did. And it took exactly that to spread Dhamma around the world like Goenka just said, and some of his discourses, he said, I have two hands, you have 1000s. And somebody said the other day, you may have wicked he talked about 1000s. But there's no millions. You know, so if you're special human being, that not only comes to the practice, but wants to help others get the practice, whether it be by sitting on the dominancy, or cleaning toilets, or building something, you know, it's a very special human being that does it. And we can see in the world now, and I know I'm diverting the the storyline here a little bit, but we live in an incredibly screwed up polarized world right now. But yet at the same time, there is more drama going on in this world now than there ever has been before. So I'm hopeful that more and more people will get done more and more people who have influence in the on the planet will get dama it will spread and make for a much better world than what we live in now. And that's all because of these wants to serve
Host 1:02:33
well. And I think your point also just touches upon just how special talented, unique going, he was in, in what he set up beyond just being simply a meditation teacher, but how he was able to package and present and the report of the charisma that he had the the I mean, after many years of spending time in Burma, I came to have the realization that wow, I could meet a really development monk and a really amazing human being. But if you were just theoretically as a thought experiment, if you were going to run courses or teachings around this person, you know, who would build the bathrooms? Who would think about what to cook who would think about course registration, you know, you have, you really have to have so many elements. So many have the correct elements in place, in order for something to take off. And I think that's something that maybe I would even venture to say you might not get enough credit for is just putting just someone in contemporary times putting themselves back in in that context. And that history of something that had never been done before something that had never been imagined or envisioned before we haven't even got to the part about these courses being free and how to this day, that's a model that very few have found a way to to replicate and still somewhat challenged the possibility of it even though he proved that that could be the case. But I think putting yourself back to and that was why I was also an earlier was referencing just his early work as a teacher when he was starting out is I think that we just have to remember how different those times were, and how there there really wasn't a model. And yes, he was trained. Yes, he had inspiration. He had a teacher and there was some there was some models to draw upon, but not not what he did. I mean, not the path that he chose and the the trail that he blazed that there was no real model for what he was doing. And I think the fact that he had the whole package not just and I think sometimes we can glamorize and just say oh, the Dhamma takes care of itself or the teaching, the teaching was there. So it found a way in some ways that might be there might be a deeper spiritual truth. But I you know, as time goes on, I don't really like Kiri natur saying that so much because I think it really ignores the fact of the hardscrabble work and not just work but the, the, the mental agility and, and flexibility and being able to respond to problems that you would never even know exist. And, you know, I think that, that, that not just being a meditation teacher, as hard as that is and And as unique as that is to have those qualities but to develop the whole apparatus around it to an international body, I mean, that's something truly, truly remarkable, especially when you consider there was there's nowhere to really look for an example of how to proceed in this way that way that was done. Yeah.
Barry Lapping 1:05:16
And he was a businessman, he was extraordinarily practical. He was always warning us about spending money properly, even even in publicizing that something was needed at a center or even a non center course. How do you do that without asking for money? You know, it was always he told the story of U ba Khin at his center, that when anything was ever needed at the center, hooba, Kim would write it on a blackboard at the center, he would leave it up on the board for two weeks. In that period of two weeks, if they if the need was met, it would get erased. If it wasn't met. After two weeks, he'd erase it anyway. So it was always with the idea and the feeling of giving people an opportunity to develop their own parmie their own quality of giving, without expecting anything in return, whether it be material giving, or whether it be giving of oneself, to serve a course, to clean the toilets to cook the food. And those Westerners. And I would say many of the Indians have like, but specifically the Westerners, they have the motivation, they were so enamored, and so devoted to the technique and the practice, with glenkinchie as the vehicle for that practice, that they were willing and able and had the skill sets, to do all those different things needed for the Dharma to grow all over the world. You know, and we were fortunate when we started the center here in Massachusetts, he was obviously still alive, that was in 82, we had a lot of contact with him, because we had no idea what we were doing not. And so we had conversations with him all the time, he came to the center every year. And so we got a lot of experience, just listen to him and, and sitting at his feet and hearing how he worked with students. And all of this comes back to the efficacy and the validity of the technique itself. Because if people were not getting the kind of benefit that they are getting, they wouldn't be here, who wants it, who wants to expend 10 days, if nothing is going to be a benefit to my life. And so it's all because of the practice that stimulated the good qualities and people to want to do this kind of work. And granted, he was absolutely the perfect vehicle for it. And even now Joah you know, all these courses going through, he's been gone for 10 years, all these courses, as you know, are still using his recorded materials. Because who could do any better? You know, who could who could, I don't know of anybody who could do what he did. And because it's not about an individual becoming a some special kind of person in the community in the society. It's about people getting the practice, so they get the benefit in their own lives. And that's what he gave us and he's still giving it to us. And that's all that matters.
Host 1:08:17
Right and I do want to follow up with that the course materials actually that segues perfectly into I had set up some time ago, this this responding to this criticism of, of perhaps being narrow minded, and the first part being the the technique, which you've responded to, and the second part being the language around it, and that that segues into these recorded mural recorded materials you talk about there have been criticisms or concerns that there's kind of an inclusive or insular language that's being expressed as well as a, a kind of creative history or mythology that's told with the, the way the The technique was preserved in pristine purity from the time of the Buddha through these lineage figures, of course they do you can say apogee and lady say it up. And, and that and that the language around the pristine purity of this technique and the singular nature that it seems to indicate of this practice as well as which has led perhaps to less engagement with as you look at the Buddhist world, or meditative world, whichever word one wants to use, that there's not so much engagement with this practice and much of the other community out there. And I want to preface my question just by saying how much I appreciate you coming on to talk and address this I I'm a big believer in communication. And I think that if people talk with different views respectfully and they're able to err and to share, I think that's a win for everyone. I think if they're able to find common ground or they're just able to listen to each other and to hear and to acknowledge while sharing, I think that's a win for everyone. I think a loss of communication is a loss for everyone. So often, these are things that are not talked about publicly or aired publicly. And I really appreciate not just you coming on, but you also articulating and suggesting wanting to address this directly. And so with that openness in mind, that's where I want to set up the acknowledgment of these criticisms and concerns that have have been voiced by both people who have left the tradition who have been longtime going students, and even teachers and have stepped down or walked away based on these concerns, among others, but we'll just stick with these concerns now, as well as people that are not in the practice and looking from outside and seeing a what they might describe as a type of arrogance or insularity or lack of engagement with others. Well,
Barry Lapping 1:10:46
I do acknowledge it, the existence of these concerns, I may not agree, I do not agree with the existence of these concerns. And keep in mind Joah. You know, even when the center was bought in 82, this center, the MC Damodara, you know, every Sunday night, those of us who live locally, and my wife and I were two of those people, we would meet every Sunday night, we'd set six or seven in the evening. And we'd have what we call the discussion group about anything dynamically. And we talked to Goenka about this. And he said no, that is not what you should be doing. He didn't want us to even discuss that stuff. And then he explained why everything always had to have a y to it. And the reason being was that the center existed. And so let's just let's say this center, but all the centers in this tradition exists for one purpose only to teach Dharma to anybody who willingly comes and asks for it. There was no other purpose for these courses, there was no other purpose for the center, the centers, the teaching, the tradition is not an activist tradition, we realize. And I've realized that in our society, there are many issues. There are gender issues, there are race issues, there are you name it, there's an issue about anything. We are not going to get involved publicly. In those issues, the center does not exist for that purpose. Like say, the race issue. We know and I know that the only real way to solve racism in this country and in the world, is for people to eliminate the decondition their minds of the root causes of racism, of gender, issues of political issues, the aversion, the craving, the ignorance, if we do not address those deep rooted issues, in every human being, I don't care how much we may know emotionally, or intellectually, those deep rooted mental conditioning St. carros karma is still there. So this these centers, this technique has a very unique place in society. It is not political, it is not active. It is only to give the pure dharma as taught by the Buddha, as we, as I feel. And anything else we do, no matter how right it may be, no matter how intellectually correct it may be, is going to dilute that singular focus of mind. So anybody from this community or that community, this religion, that religion, this color, that color, this gender, that gender, they can all due courses, because we're all exactly the same. Every one of us is, is guided is controlled by natural scientific law, our minds work the same, the conditioning is different. But the law of nature is the same for each one of us, in these courses exists only to teach people this law of nature, so they can come out of their own particular conditioning. If you come out of greed, hatred and ignorance, at the depth of one's own mind, you are then going to come out of all of your prejudice, all of your issues, all of your all of your misery. That's what's going to bring hope to the society not just becoming an activist, which I don't I don't disagree with, I have no problem with somebody being an activist or voting this way or that way, or getting involved in any kind of issue. But I do know that the root cause has to be dealt with if you're going to have peace in the society. And so this tradition, which may people may look upon as limited, as narrow minded, to me is exactly the opposite of that. It is totally all inclusive. Anybody closes their eyes and starts observing their own sensations and tries to develop equanimity understanding that everything they feel is changing, has the opportunity to come out of their prejudice, come out of their anger, their fear, their misery, that's what's going to help society And so without criticizing anybody else for what they do, maybe even people who have left this tradition, that's fine. We will continue to do this because this we know is what really gives benefit to individual human beings as we continue to do it without criticizing anybody.
Host 1:15:19
I guess another part that concern has been mentioned is the language around the history of the tradition and the technique and this the role that this prompts outsized role for many that this question of pristine purity has played and this feeling that perhaps this technique is the the only or the most important technique that the Buddha taught that it was that this technique was exactly as the forbearers in the lineage taught without any change that there's there could be a certain sensitivity the detractors might argue paranoia about wanting to to dilute or pollute this, this, this quote unquote, pristine purity, and kind of the attention around that which can lead to protectionist or, or insular or, or close minded or arrogant thinking of around this feeling this this kind of specialized gifted technique that's come to this to these practitioners that, that, that just creates an atmosphere of, well, first of, of being perhaps a bit more closed off or close minded of, of the wider, perhaps wider critical engagement and other understanding other traditions or other methodologies. But then, also of just looking at the recorded history and seeing where the, I would use the word mythology of the way that this not just the technique itself, but the language around how this technique came where that fits, or doesn't quite fit with some of what we know of recorded history and, and some of the issues with that. And so, I wonder also just your how you would, because this is an open conversation. And I again, I just want I know this is very sensitive, I want to, again, just as we're having this in the middle of having this conversation, again, just appreciate you for sitting here and being open to hearing and acknowledging his criticism and responding to which is, which is not so common practice, I really want to applaud you for that. And to also just give you a chance to respond publicly to any part of that. Well,
Barry Lapping 1:17:36
the first thing I would say is this, these words, pristine purity. And I know going to use that quite often. But we need to consider a couple of things. One is English was not going to use native tongue. But that's almost irrelevant. When we talk about the pristine purity, or the purity of the technique. You know, everybody can have their own thoughts about this. I mean, like awake, he has often said, pass lady science, we don't know the names of the teachers after that we don't even know the name of the teacher for Lady science. So how can we say that this goes all the way back. And when I consider it, the pristine purity, I think more in terms of the purity of dharma, not necessarily just the purity of this tradition. This tradition to me is extremely pure, because it is a vessel is only a vessel that holds this practice. And the practice itself holds to me the very essence of what the Buddha taught and what is that the Buddha's was Sheila morality, samadhi, concentration and punya wisdom. That is the complete teaching of the Buddha. This tradition embodies those that those three things Sheila Samadhi, Bunya. This tradition embodies the Eightfold Noble Path. And like I say, going through, he hasn't changed that since the time I had met him. But then when we say it goes all the way back to the Buddha, when I consider it, what I really consider is the essence of what the Buddha taught, which I which I think I've already said, and I can say it again, is the understanding of impermanence, the development of the understanding of dukkha and anatta. But through the practice of Sheila, samadhi, and punya. To me, the purity of this practice goes all the way back to the Buddha. And there have been many people through the generations through the centuries, that have maintained that purity, whether it's this tradition or another tradition, the purity of being able to understand the impermanent nature of all conditioned things, understanding that to decondition those things one has to develop the perfect equanimity of mind, understanding impermanence and thereby that's the teaching of the Buddha that is the essence of what the Buddha taught. And any tradition that does that, even in the 10 day discourse going on, he says, any technique that takes you to the level of feeling sensation and developing equanimity with sensation is a technique of, of Dhamma is a technique of Vipassana, whether you use those words are not. So whether we know the names of all of these teachers who have maintained the, quote, pristine purity, we do know, by experience, and you mentioned U BA, Khin and some of the people that he dealt with very developed people, we so we do know that the essence of the Buddha's teaching has remained through the generations through through the 1000s of years. That is what's critical. That is what goes on. Now, does this tradition. Is this the only tradition that has that? No, nobody ever said that grandkid. You never said that. In fact, when he when he when if you ever take a Sati Putana course, you will hear him say, these are just different starting points, all of these traditions, including our own, are starting points, to get to a place where we understand the arising and passing away of all phenomena, with the understanding of change dukkha and anatta. That is the purity of the technique right now, from what I can tell, this tradition does embody that. And so I would say it's a very pure tradition, and not getting involved in all kinds of other things not being active, socially, not engaging with other traditions, that does not demean us that does not make us narrow minded. But I will say just the opposite. It's giving us the opportunity to really maintain that essence of what the Buddha taught, and that is what we want to pass on to the next generations. If we do that, the teachings of the Buddha will remain if we do not, and other people do not, and the techniques gets changed and corrupted and Sheila's not maintained and wisdom is not developed, the teachings of the Buddha are going to disappear, just like to have before. So we take it very seriously what our responsibility is. And so I look at it as very all encompassing, as opposed to narrow minded, insular, not at all. And I don't know anybody who engaged in the world of Dharma more than going to G. So he was a great example. And yes, I can understand why people would say these things, so they don't understand. But the reality is quite different than what some of these criticisms are. And so all we can do is try to explain that as criticisms come. But as long as we keep teaching what we teach, and we keep helping people get to the essence of the totality of dharma, I feel very happy that we're doing the right thing. Joe, when it what is it that we actually want in the world, you know, we want people to come out of their suffering. The Buddha said he taught two things suffering and the way out of suffering. What Guangdong Ji taught, whom I can talk was the essence of the Eightfold Noble Path. Not that others don't do the same thing. But I know that these gentlemen these men did that. That's what we need to maintain that essence of the dumber and not just participating in what is maybe popular in society.
Host 1:23:27
I keep wanting to get back to your own journey. And I promise we will help but I keep having other questions that come as we're going off on what's now not a tangent, but a very interesting and important theoretical understanding and discussion to have. Another concern I'd like to bring to you to get your thought on is that's I know has been tossed around for many years as this question of quantity versus quality, quality, meaning to what extent are is one looking at teacher appointments and training and development and spiritual development and attainment, at looking at the meditators journey from start to finish would would, of course, be some enlightenment, but if we that's that's can be a long ways off, but certainly some kind of development beyond the beginner and intermediate stage where more kind of specialized problems or issues might come up depending on the path of the individual meditator as well as, as having teacher student interaction, those being kind of the quality side and quantity being pretty self explanatory of just how medium being able to bring these teachings of liberation to as many people as possible around the world and to mention that the blanket tradition is credited with delivering the Buddha's teachings in places where historically, as far as I know, the Buddha's teachings have never reached I mean, that in and of itself is quite an achievement. And, and so this question of quality versus quantity of the experience the vast expansion, the hunger, the The need for that students themselves are articulating to want to take these courses with those inherent issues of quality and organization, administration, development, etc. This has been something that I know has been quite a topic of conversation and trying to chart how to balance these. So what are your thoughts on this quality versus quantity discussion?
Barry Lapping 1:25:21
Well, certainly quantity is there. As you know, I mean, we see now there are hundreds of Senators around the world, and almost all of them have waiting lists. So clearly the word is out there in society that these courses work, that people get the pure damage. And that is really what is critical. So that is the quality side of it. That's the quantity side as well. Now, there are no other people that I know of that are going because they just aren't, you know, sure. What we do have though, is we have many, many people 1000s of people who are devoted people who are experienced people to a certain extent, and who are who have the ability, and not everybody is the same we know that, but have the ability to be able to transmit the teachings in a way that people from their own communities is going to are going to understand, for example, I know that some words echoing could you might use in the recordings by somebody might say, what does that mean, or they're dated, or whatever it happens to be? The assistant teachers haven't very important function, or even people that have been named teachers, but still play the recordings. That function is to ensure the quality. Now, everybody that comes to a course is a different human being with a different set of conditioning, how much they're going to understand how much they're going to progress themselves, is going to be different. It's all different. But what everybody is getting is the quality of a very pure seed of dharma, or developing a seed that they already have. So knowing that every human being is different, our job is simple. Just give everybody the dharma as we understand it, and let them progress as they are able to progress in the world. This is this is not a time like when u BA. Khin was alive, where like you say all these very special people. And I've heard all the same stories as you have. We're around very special people, but very few of them compared to what's happening now. So all we really need to do is to ensure that the essence of the technique, the quality, as you say, remains, and what people do with it is going to be what people do with it. And different people are going to do different things. And clearly, the hope is that there will be people in the world who will take this technique and develop it as much as they can according to their own ability, and pass it on to the next generation. I think that's all we can do. Our mistakes made, yeah, certainly mistakes are made, but everywhere mistakes are made. But one thing I will stress about all of these teachers, all of these courses, is that the very basics of what the Buddha taught, and I do stress Shila you know, the five moral precepts are absolutely the base of every one of our courses, every student takes those precepts. And without that there is no building of of a practice, you can if the mind is completely agitated because of our own impurities, how can we quiet the mind so that we can develop Samadhi and wisdom? We can't. So it is very much stressed, as far as quality is concerned that Sheila is the bass develop as much Somali as you were capable of, and with that learn to be passionate and develop the passionate as much as you are capable of. So in my mind, I see quality and quantity kind of walking together.
Host 1:28:53
And a follow up question to that is with now glenkinchie Having passed away about 10 years ago, there's no the living teacher in this tradition is there no longer the structure remains and one important parts of that structure are the recorded audio visual instructions, discourses etc. And as time goes on, as we get into later years and decades, etc, looking into the future of the organization, is there any thought or discussion about doing something to modify the way those instructions are given as generation start to be further and further removed from from the Living teacher and from people even knew the living teacher? Is do you foresee that these these recorded instructions and discourses of Glinka will be unchanged and how they continue to be delivered into courses into the future or is there any any wiggle room for discussion or flexibility that's happening now and looking at as you look at delivering teachings to the current Time and generation and context etc. Is there any thought that another type of delivery might be relevant sometime in the future? Or is it seen as these the standard this kind of being a standard bearer going forward? With no change in the foreseeable future? You
Barry Lapping 1:30:16
may? Well, let's see. First of all, we know that everything is a nature, everything changes, Eve, I mean, why could you change stuff from Uber Can you didn't change the technique? That is what is important is that the technique itself as generations go on, does not change. It's wonderful to have these recorded materials. When we all love to have recorded materials of the Buddha, wouldn't it be great to sit down and listen to his discourses, his teachings, so we are very grateful, I hope these teachings, these recordings remain, whether they're actively using courses, or they remain as an archive for 1000s of years. I'm very happy about that. If they if the time comes where these these recorded materials are no longer fulfilling the need of the society of the people who want to learn dama? Well, I think they're going to have to change. And that's going to be up to the teachers of that day, how it is done. Well, you know, all the people I know, you know, Wayne County, is a very tough act to follow. You know, there are not many people, and I don't know anyone, honestly, who can do what he did in such a skillful way. And, you know, he wants told me, he's on East, he was more comfortable onstage and offstage, I don't know anybody like that. So he was a unique human being with a unique job to do given by Ooba kin. And he did it really well. I think his initial hope was that these people he named as assistant teachers would eventually become full teachers giving their own discourse instructions and all that. But he saw things not working out quite that way. And so he said, just use the materials, it's okay, there's not a problem with that, because it's about the people who are getting the technique, not the people sitting on the Dhamma seat. So as long as there is a need to play these recorded materials, I'm, I'm very happy that we have them. Because it does ensure that the quote, purity of the technique is maintained exactly the same all over the world. And the teachers who are playing these recordings, they have a very critical function to make sure that the people who hear them understand them, and are able to practice it's all about practice, they will understand what's recorded, they can't practice, the technique isn't going to work. So if it comes a time where the recordings are not helping the transmission of Dhamma, something is going to have to change. And hopefully there will be people at that time, who will be able to change it in a way that they still have the same enlightened devotion to the grandkids to the tradition to Burma to India. But they're able to transmit the same things in different words, but also having these words to always refer back to, to ensure that that, that that essential purity, in essence of the technique remains the same. What happens in the future? I don't know. But I know that what we're doing now works really well.
Host 1:33:32
Okay, and from here, let's move back to your story which I am very interested in seeing where it goes to after this extended and very interesting and important diversion. We left off when you were in India, and you had you had you had taken this course you been transformed by it. You talk about the spiritual community, among other Western practitioners, Sharon Salzberg, Joseph Goldstein, Graham white, and Michael Stein, some of the names that were out there, as you're renting temporary places in Dalhousie and perhaps going other places where the climate climate and teachings dictate in India. And this goes on for several years. This is some of the same refrains that were found in Michael Stein's interview talked about after several years, people then life kind of started to pick back up and being India was hard for many various reasons and people and people also wanted to bring these teachings back to their respective home country. So pick off and your own personal story where this exit starts to come from India and start to move homeward.
Barry Lapping 1:34:37
Well, after those first say couple of years in India, I did come home. In fact, Joseph Goldstein, his mother, who owned a bungalow colony up in the Catskills, gave all of us a job at her bungalow colony for the summer. And Joseph was a bus driver. I was a lifeguard other people were other things and It was wonderful. But we made enough money to go back to India the next the following fall and just keep doing the same thing. Eventually, we came back, I came back, I don't remember when, but let's just say, I was back and forth in the 70s. But then my own father had a stroke. In 75, I believe it was, and I was here and I took care of him for many, many years. So I got back to India for a couple of months, I would go if not, I wouldn't go. And I remember writing glenkinchie saying, I would really love to come to sit the long course at dama Giri this year. But I can't because I have to talk. I have to take care of my father. He wrote back very quickly. And he said, as I think Buddha did something very similar in his discourses, he said, if you're with a Nietzsche, you're with me, don't worry about it, take care of your father. And those were very powerful words. For me, I had, I had lived with a family in India, where the mother had had a heart attack, she was an older woman. And the son who was a close friend of mine, moved into her room, took care of her in her room, and asked me to move into the house. And I helped him. And I saw the devotion of a child to a parent. And it was it was amazing. It was like, this is the way it is supposed to be. So with that experience in India, when my own father got sick, there was never, there was never a choice, there was never a decision to make, I took care of my father, for years. Turns out between my mother and father, it turned out to be 12 years. But in that period of time, most winters, my wife, Kate, and I met at that time as well, my wife, Kate, married in 82, very shortly after we started the center here. And we would both try to get back to India pretty much every winter for many years, for guake, Eg self course, at least his of course, because it was a very special time to be able to sit with him. And I know Michael told you some of those stories as well. So I will not, I won't repeat them. But just being with him sitting those long courses, he made us 80s. And when the center started in 82, and Michael Michael, outline that really well. There were a number of us, because it was the first center outside of India, there were a number of us who a number of people from other areas that moved here. And I know Kate and I, we had a situation where we had enough money at the time, we had no children, I was taking care of both of my parents. And we made the decision that this is what we were going to do for the rest of our life, as long as we could do it financially, where we did not have to go to work, we dedicated the rest of our life to developing this center. And we've also helped other centers as well. So it was a very special time for us. And we always had glenkinchie to refer back to, you know, when somebody becomes an assistant teacher, now they have to go through a whole training program. But as quantity was being trained by Ooba, Ken for many years, and he didn't even know it, I kind of believe that blanket, he was doing the same thing with many of us, we had the good fortune to sit at his feet, listen to him, interact with him, travel with him. And I think by osmosis, we learned how to do this. And with all the mistakes that were made, he was always there to to help us. And so I know Kate and I, we dedicated our rest of our life to to to dharma and dharma service. And here it is. 52 years later, we're still doing the same thing. And we live about 17 miles from the center. Here, this center.
Host 1:38:52
There's one story I heard, I only heard the rough outlines of this, I wonder if you could confirm it or go into more detail that when Goenka G was first starting to lead these court these 10 day courses in the US and there was this uncertainty about the model like are you going to charge for it? Can you really offer them freely? Is that really a model that can work and the early days of that, that there was an intention to try a course where the meditators on the course would have to pay just to cover the basic costs and that you and your wife stepped in to cover that financially. Is that can you clarify that story?
Barry Lapping 1:39:33
It was my wife. I didn't have anything. I mean, when Kuwait Did you know we had this this event in Bombay at the Global pagoda in 2010 that he called the gratitude gathering. In that gratitude gathering he he requested that people from the first i don't know i think it was maybe 10 years of his teaching career. come to Bombay and meet meet with him. And so there was this big gathering at the Global pagoda And I was there for that. Okay, so you heard him eat called for Kate and I to stand up? We did. And he talked about Kate. And he said, what Kate did was to say if there's any shortfall in money from this course, I think it was even maybe even at first course in Goshen? I'm not sure. Or sandwich Massachusetts next year at too early in the year. He said, she said that she would cover that, let's make it a dawn, of course. And she did. But the fact is, of course, it started covering themselves anyway. You know, but that that that volition that Kate had to, to make that offer was a real impetus to start having donation only courses, which is unique in the world. And we have never charged for a course we have all these centers now there are no charges. How does this work? You know, I mean, I have seen people who are on welfare, unemployment give $1 At the end of a course, I've seen people give hundreds of 1000s of dollars. So it's all the opportunity to develop your own quality of donation of charity of giving the park the parmi of Donna, a very important quality and guake. He said, This is what u ba Khin did, and he always wanted to do it, he started doing it in India out of a lot of fear there by the trustees, and started doing it here. And, you know, I think the rest is history, it works at every center, you know, and how much people appreciate it, because what it really does, is it makes the Dharma accessible to anyone, regardless of your socio socio economic situation. Anybody can come. You don't I mean, we've even rented transportation from people from different communities to come. So the center's want the Dhamma to be for everyone. It's not, it's not specific to any one particular segment of population, it's for all, and Donna courses help to make that happen.
Host 1:42:11
That's really special, though, that your wife played this role of in that kind of uncertain period of trying to figure out how to incorporate these in the west and what model would work and wanting to go this model, but also not maybe not necessarily having the confidence it can be pulled off. And Michael speaks to the uncertainty at that time that your wife Kate stepping in to provide that kind of band aid or that bridge or that security for just that moment when it was needed kind of in some way gave a was able to give a way forward for this model actually working and it reminds me also of say otha G, who begins teacher, you know, he he did more than just not have students that welcomes students without paying for the course, which in Burma is almost unheard of. In any case, he actually paid the wages of those students who missed their work to come to the course he paid their back wages for a time, then he had his own financial difficulties. But at first he actually I mean, it's incredible, he actually paid the the back wages of of these farmers that would come of the money that they would have made during those 10 days. But you know, that's that's just a really special memory to think of your wife playing that role. And and who knows how things could have turned out differently if that moment had enough come to just provide confidence for the next course, the next course, the next course. And then suddenly, you're in a groove and you realize, okay, maybe we got something here?
Barry Lapping 1:43:40
Well, you know, she never thought of it in terms of, should I do this or not, it was just me, she is probably the most generous human being I know. And it was just it was so for her. It was like, there was nothing else to do. Of course, I will do this if I can, you know, and it's been that way all these years. Very generous. And you give the you give the example of strategy, I believe, and I can't, I can't say for sure. But I believe when scientists started teaching in these government offices in the Government of Burma, those people who sat courses probably also got paid while they were sitting so they wouldn't lose salary. So this has been a tradition as part of this tradition for many generations. And it's really ingrained in us now. I mean, here we live in such an a crazy economic world. And somebody is giving something actually giving something without expecting anything in return. The center is going to just tradition exist only to give something to and that is unique. And keep in mind when somebody comes in does a course of which you've done a number. What is the first thing they do on day zero night? Of course, they asked for The teaching, they have to surrender and ask their monks and nuns for that period of time. But they have to ask for the teaching, no one is selling anything. No one is charging anything, even the people who serve courses, they're all volunteers from the cooks to the toilet cleaners, to the assistant teachers going to do us to say, I may ask you to sit on the Domus eat one day and clean the toilets the next day. You know, and he tells stories about that there were people that did it, there was a story in Burma, at IMC, about kin center where there was a Muslim man who was I believe he was a professor at the University there, he was an old student. And Muslims are very, very clean people. You know, they don't clean toilets and all that. But this man being so devoted, he would show up at the center at three o'clock in the morning to clean the toilets when nobody knew he was even there. And, and they go off to work. Because he just wanted to give something to the students. So this quality of generosity, this quality of Donna is really deeply ingrained in this tradition. I'm not saying it's not ingrained in others, I'm sure it is. And so in this moneyed society we live in, to be able to give something without expecting anything return is unique. It's wonderful. And it's a very important part of the practice.
Host 1:46:22
And CRG, but can also showed an extraordinarily flexibility in terms of his outreach to students. I don't know if this is the same Muslim in question. But a story that I heard was that when a Muslim student came to take a course from him and IMC, he removed all the Buddhist statues and Buddha imageries, so that there would be no distractions from him learning which in Buddhist Burma is, is quite something that's cool. That's not something you hear very often, it's such a devout and religious place that he would have that he would do that so willingly and have his own initiative to do that. And to then reflect on the service aspect of it, you know, I've my, my own life has been changed by being in the passionate kitchens. You know, by my my own service, I mean, the there definitely been some, the, the long courses and the extensive time sitting. And of course, that gives its benefit that goes without saying, but some of the real great life lessons I've had, and I don't know, I might have served more than I sad. I don't know what the number is anymore. But But service has definitely always been an important part of me, important part of my time and something that I've, I've gained tremendously from and when you're looking at real world applications, I mean, it's just, you would never think that you could learn so much about life by cutting carrots or cleaning toilets, but boy, you sure can. Yes,
Barry Lapping 1:47:42
you can. And, and you take that mental, that mental state back into your life, I mean, granted you, dharma has to be applied in your life. So let's just say you come here for 10 days, you get better when you're here, you learn something that's going to help you. But then you go back and apply it in your life. So imagine taking somebody who has really imbibed the technique, and by the understanding of Donna, going back out into the world, and helping people, even if it's an activist thing, like we were talking about before, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could be active without being reactive? You know, how can I help people who are harming society, as opposed to how can I just hurt them because they're doing something so bad, you know. So the Dhamma has to be applied in life. I believe many people who we don't even know their names are doing exactly that. And I believe that to a great extent, that is why these courses have been so successful, because they're, it's giving somebody something that they can do for themselves back in their own lives. And, to me, that made glenkinchie probably the most unique human being on the planet, you know, he's gone. But he's still giving the same thing. People get the Dharma. And that's what it's about. It's not about the vehicle. It's about the practice. And that's what people take home. And that's what gives benefit in life. That's why people give Donna that's why courses in centers keep going.
Host 1:49:13
And I want to veer the conversation back to Burma, both in my life going Cadiz life, your experiences there as well, I want to get to but what I went to Burma, initially in 2003, and going as a passionate meditator in the blanket tradition, then going to live in 2007, where I was lucky enough to get employment at a time when it was difficult for foreigners to be there more than 28 days very fortunate to, to be there at that time, and then to go on for 15 years of living there. And one of my real intrigues and wanting to go and live beyond just a short visit was seeing this tradition and this practice that had changed my life so profoundly, and which I just had so many questions of where where did it come from How did it come to be where to pull from and going to Burma gave many of those answers and seen many times that first year or two that I was in Burma, different conversations, different experiences, different things I saw that would then say, Oh, well, this is this is kind of what I learned from the course, where this is what was incorporated in the course, or this is where, you know, this discourse, or this practice, or this kind of system, this is, this is kind of on more native ground with deeper roots. This is, this is what was pulled from and that was so inspiring. And I'm saying this now, because I'm thinking of the memory of giving service and how I would be at you know, and that was someone who was young and ambitious and had these aspirations, I have to say, my first course serving was hard. And I still remember, I still were mentally, mentally, physically, it was hard. But mentally, it was hard. And I still remember why I remember being in my early 20s, and cutting carrots in of a passionate kitchen. And kind of in the first couple of days having all this resistance and aversion of like, I wanted to be something in life, I didn't want to just cut carrots, you know, what am I doing here? Like, what is this greater world that I meant to explore? And I'm meant to make my mark and I am in this kitchen, cutting 50 Carrots and is this really what I'm supposed to do? So I had like, all these, all this stuff coming up of like, who I thought I was and what I wanted to be and and how I was, I felt that that I had somehow veered from these great things I wanted to accomplish in life, until I then started to learn the beauty and the simplicity and how if I really if my, how much I could observe my mind, my body, my sensations and my interactions with others, and and then make a transformation and do like, you know, there's no more carrots to cut, like, can I just cut some more for tomorrow because, you know, I got so in the groove of, of just of what that experience was of those small things and, and as Mother Teresa said, the famous quote that that I then learned as I was in those kitchens, I'm I'm done with doing again, paraphrasing, I'm done with doing big things for life. It's doing small things with great love and big heart. And I learned that there and then being in Burma, being at monasteries, and seeing local villagers come to the monastery and say, Well, we're coming to clean the toilets, or we're coming to bring this rice or this curry or we're coming to have this one hour Dhamma lesson or Pali lesson that we're going to learn or to sweep the dama hall or whoever it was, and realizing that this kind of as an ambitious person who wanted to accomplish these big things. My first course serving and the the barriers and the obstacles that were in front of me and feeling that why am I doing these menial things I should be accomplishing something so much more. This is what the path I want to be on, than being in Burma and seeing the sense of service they had there. And the joy they had the purpose they had the the confidence they had. And this is something I really love about about Burmese Buddhist people in my time with them that I've learned from is just the confidence that's developed of like, I have done a good deed. Maybe I've given $1 You know, 1000 chat to a monastery, maybe I've swept the floor, maybe I've offered some rice, but whatever it is clean the bathrooms, I have done a good deed and I rejoice in my deed with pure confidence and happiness and what you rejoice with me and as a typical Westerner that's always self doubting and full of my own flaws and vulnerabilities and imperfections and, you know, struggling with that those kinds of modern anxieties, as so many of us do to just have this simplicity of action that that I have done a good deed and I am celebrating this good deed that's changed my life forever has been around that among Burmese people, which is then those elements incorporated into the course and organization structure of how one is able to give and to to, to take joy in in the mental intentions and physical activity of service to others. And you know, being in Burma was so wonderful that side of it, because so many things that were kind of packaged into this intensive course experience and organizational structure in Burma being living there. With such time to be able to observe these things, they don't all come at once, but they unfold slowly. And being able to observe these elements that was like oh, this is what Goenka meant when he said this, or this is how, you know the organization is kind of working in this way. And this is this is what I'm seeing in Burmese society. So kind of going back to those roots. And, and the society he came from and the dooba can was born from and seeing where those were pulled where different aspects were pulled to make that core structure and organization. Organizational culture, you know that that that was really wonderful.
Barry Lapping 1:54:48
Yeah, yeah, I think we could do better if he heard what you just said. I believe he would just say Saudi Saudi Saudi, which is why Joah we have so much respect and gratitude to Burma, regardless of what's going on over there now, the country of Burma is the place that kept the pure Dharma alive wherever, regardless of the tradition, Burma kept this Dhamma alive for 1000s of years. Even if it was just from a few people, to a few people, it was kept, let's say pristine purity, for any tradition to make use of. And for that we are eternally grateful. And which is why at some of our centers, we have put up Burmese style pagoda, Sadie's to always remind us in the next generations of that powerful connection to Burma, who kept this technique through that powerful connection to India, of which Blanca Ji started his mission, essentially. And so that connection to Burma, and India remains a very powerful factor in the practice itself. Because when you remember that practice, and quite good, he talks about this in the long courses, you know, when you have right thought about that kind of activity, that kind of beauty, it brings a great deal of joy to you. And that joy leads to better Samadhi leads to more wisdom, more equanimity, and, and stronger practice. So remembering what Burma has done for us, is very important thing. And those of us who will new Burma who spend time there yourself more than anyone I know, will always carry that with us with you. And I believe we have a very big responsibility to pass that on to the coming generations whether they ever go to Burma or not. They need to know where this technique has been maintained. And that's why we get it now. If it wasn't for Burma, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Host 1:56:52
Yeah, absolutely. And this is something I want to emphasize. Because for a couple of reasons. One is that in these terrible times that are going on now, and the terrible curtain of dictatorship that's come over that countries that 62 There, Burma has a reputation among many in the world outside this relatively small meditator community, of being kind of a poor, broken country that's in need of support, and perhaps even pity. And that, that it's this one way given of the international community to just continue to help this poor country. And that's a narrative that I'm always trying to pick at on this platform. And not just looking at the reciprocal nature of giving, but look at Burma, as the giver look at this as the source of this kind of wisdom and this and this generosity and is giving to places that have been animated the world. And so I wonder if you can speak to that if you can think of the Burmese listeners that we have to this that are perhaps feeling a bit down. And in terms of the ongoing struggle that's come and just speak to yourself and the community that you represent and what Burma has meant to you and means to you.
Barry Lapping 1:58:08
Well, it certainly meant a great deal to me, you know, when I did my very first course, about Kim was still alive. And I wrote to him because I wanted to go to Burma even then that was 1970. I wanted to meet him but he had died and it never happened. glenkinchie himself was so devoted to Burma and going Gigi, one of one of glenkinchie strongest qualities was his gratitude. I mean, he had that he had that global pagoda built for the purpose of showing his gratitude to Ooba akin to Burma. And, you know, so that example of that kind of gratitude was instilled in us. We experienced it firsthand by sitting at IMC, by traveling around Burma when they finally let us travel around Burma. I can't think of a more wonderful and beautiful place in the world and Shwedagon Pagoda. To me, I see pictures of it, and especially you go there at like, you know, four or five o'clock in the morning, when you've no crowds. It's just, it's just such a mecca of beauty. And reminder, not just physical beauty, but the reminder of liquids these people in this country have done for us what they've given were the recipients here when the poor ones here Burma is the rich one. And they gave us something that has the ability to change the world that we live in, including the world they live in. They need it now more than anybody. And Winky with his love for Burma. Look, how many centers are in this tradition now in Burma? Quite a number. I don't know how many but a lot. Sure. And so all of this is the result of gratitude to what Burma gave the world and we keep that in mind. You know when we pray Every day when we generate metaphor for all beings, we should remember Burma. And when I see we have Burmese courses at least once or twice a year here, and when Burmese teachers who come and when I see that some of these Burmese, you know, they never got Dhamma in Burma, they got it here. You know, they live in New York, they live in Boston wherever they live. And they are the most grateful human beings I've ever met. And when I see them come to the center, they're coming with car loads of food and supplies. And I mean, when the Cambodians show up, it's the same thing when they show up. I've never seen so much food in my life, you know, and even in the middle, of course, they bring more they, they they renew the supplies. And all of this is because of gratitude that they have for the Dharma. And so we have gratitude for them, we have gratitude for what they have done. Because if it wasn't for them, we would not have this center, we would not be doing what we're doing now. So that gratitude becomes an essential and critical part of our own practice. So that we can actually develop gratitude is is critical. Important. And
Host 2:01:12
I think this is also important because another reputation Burma has, which is which has some truth in it, although it's it's not the full truth is the isolationist country that it's it's a country that has been isolated and cut off from the rest of the world, which is true to some extent, again, given the unfortunate recent history. But that I think that does not get it the fact of its greatest export through. Certainly this tradition, Mahasi has also been as as has exported teachings in a different way. These are the two primary ones, but through these two traditions, and through this tradition, particularly that we're talking about in this conversation, that when you try to characterize Burma as this isolation, this country isolation, meaning not much as getting in not bunches getting out, well, maybe it's true that not much was getting in over the past half century, or whenever it was due to the xenophobia that the military had. But to say not much was getting out. This is a story that is not really being told outside of yourself, and those in those communities who know better who are part of these thriving spiritual meditative communities that have have grown based on these Burmese lineages and have this gratitude and this knowledge. But that's not a story that's getting out so much outside of these communities, which is why I want to be so explicit about it here. For for those who haven't taken a course or aren't aware of this, this influence and dynamic, that this export this export of this meditation technique coming from a Burmese lineage. This has influenced just so many people around the world in such profound ways. This is an export coming from Burma spiritual export coming from Burma, which has made its mark on the world and I daresay changed the world to some degree. So let us not forget this.
Barry Lapping 2:03:06
I agree with you, you know, when, when glenkinchie left Burma to go teach his parents in 69. I believe the story is something like he was a customs leaving Burma. And they said something like you take him and he's the jewel. And they also doubt because then you explain I'm taking the jewel of Dhamma. And this is exactly what has happened. And the beauty is is the proof how people's lives have changed. And this is because of what Burma did. And I mean a change going in his life. He wouldn't be where he is now or wherever he is, or these all these years, if it wasn't for his connection with Burma and Buchan. And so none of this is an accident, it is not an accident. That Glinka G came in contact with Uber can not an accident that going to G have the skill set and the power me to reach millions of people around the world. And not an accident that this has become the greatest export that Burma could ever hope to give to the world. So the gratitude that goes along with that, when you remember it is enormous. It's really enormous. So maybe we can say Burma was the is the greatest exporter on the planet.
Host 2:04:20
Right? And it you know, when you look at just the bridge he made in being able to package and deliver this what what's coming to mind now is when my mom who also has had many courses in this tradition when she came to Burma, and I took her to visit different monasteries, she said, You know, it's really interesting, because there would be a lot of things at these monasteries and some of them we even slept at or meditated at more than just casual visits. He said, You know, there think there's things that this monastery that either I wouldn't understand and we would be very foreign or I would actually have a version to who would actually look at in terms of, you know, something just overly religious or rights or rituals or these other things, but just some We coming from a 10 day course experience, I can see how these things were seeing in monasteries, I can see how, how this is what came to the course experience, you know whether it's waking up at four in the morning, whether it's not eating any food after 12 noon, whether it's some of the protocol involved in monastics even though that's it's a late tradition, So that part's not there as much, but or Sheila or these other things. And so and I say this because that bridge was so important, if you, you take my mom as an example, and so many people would fit into that category. So much is given to you, when you come to that 10 day course hand delivered to you to then just go on the conveyor belt and, and practice the way you're supposed to with things explained and presented in the way they are. If one were to come without those kinds of linguistic, cultural, religious, spiritual, whatever, backgrounds and just show up at this place of practice, the barriers for being able to understand the barriers also that could produce hesitations and discomfort and, and, and even aversion that because of the way he's handcrafted, that kind of delivery to a new student, it enables someone to first learn there, but then when they go to Burma, as in the case of my mom, and then so much so many others, that, that that that the native Buddhist culture there and meditative environment, that those things even though they're they're definitely very different from a course and rooted in their own cultural and religious experience. They're things that are not too far of a stretch away for a VA passionate practitioner in the Goenka tradition to be able to, to make those couple steps on their own and to realize, oh, this is where it came from. And this is this is more in its it's kind of natural form in this country, how it's being practiced. And indeed, many practitioners, many meditators from going to tradition have gone on to be lifelong monastics of monks and nuns and sometimes in different traditions. But you know, and sometimes have gone very deep into renunciation, and so many of them and countless, so many that have come on this platform, whether they continue to take courses or feel that they've kind of veered off into other forms of practice, but so many of them will, will credit that those early courses and the course structure that Goenka created as being the thing that was able to deliver that message to them, if they had even these lifelong monastics, they had showed up at these monasteries, where they end up renouncing and living their lives, they wouldn't have had that connection, if not for the taste of Dharma that they had through these courses, which then made it appealing and amenable to wanting to develop deeper into that practice. So it really, you know, for those that never go to Burma, it's the spiritual tradition it gives is in and of itself. But for those that go, it's this, it really is an extraordinary bridge, that without that, it just doesn't make as much sense. And it's much harder to make sense of or integrate. But
Barry Lapping 2:08:11
let's remember deal with it, you're going to do is very was very fond of saying that the Buddha was a super scientist, everything has to have a why you have to understand why we're doing what we're doing. He understood the background of people to such an extent that you did not have to be a Buddhist, renunciate, or Christian, or Jewish or anti Muslim or anything else. You just had to be able to observe. And he conducted these courses, he taught in such a way that people did not have to accept anything blindly. You accept only what you experience. And now here's the tool for you to experience. And in that way, people could actually understand the Buddha's teachings at an experiential level, which made them appreciate all of the other things like the monastic society. Negotiations, like what Burma has done first, it made it enabled people to appreciate that that much more, because they actually understood the essence of dharma, not the essence of a religion, but the science of how this mind and body work, so that we could come out of our misery. That's what the Buddha taught. And that's what going on he gave us. And that's why we're so grateful to Burma because it was there, that that essence was maintained.
Host 2:09:31
And I'm thinking as well, now I'm remembering that one of my mom was first sitting her first few courses, then not eating after 12 Noon was always somewhat kind of annoying and confusing to her and not just kind of seem kind of arbitrary. And then on the first visit to Burma and realizing the monks vinyasa, and the monastic order in such says like this, oh, that's, that's why we do this. That's why we follow this and it just all kind of stuck into place.
Barry Lapping 2:09:56
But I also want to do a 10 day course. And you know, Eat food after five, we will give it to you if it's for the health of your body. So you can practice, whatever you need pretty much.
Host 2:10:09
Right? But it also just kind of highlights, you know the depth of where this came from in making that course package. But I also want to ask about your visits to Burma and perhaps end with that. And if you could take us through, you mentioned how you wrote a letter to say, as you began in 17, before he died, that's, that's wonderful to hear. And I'm sorry that you weren't able to actually meet him directly. And then with the political problems going there as a foreigner, even a practitioner was difficult for many years. So when did you finally get to Burma? And what were your impressions of being there?
Barry Lapping 2:10:41
Well, I got there in 73. And at that time, as I think Michael explained, we were only allowed to be there for a week we got a seven day visa. We were picked up at the airport, we were taken to IMC, we sat for a week, we flew we were taken to the airport, we flew to Thailand, renewed our visa for another week, came back and sat another week. And that went on for some years. And then I think it was somewhere around 7879. Michael and I actually went to Burma together for a course where we ordained as monks. The first day we would become summon era. The second day, we were taken to some big hall in Rangoon, somewhere, you had gone, and we took vows as full monks. And it was a very special time we were allowed to stay in Burma then for two weeks. And it was a two week course. And we did it as monks. And I have never seen care, like the Burmese people took care of us. I mean, the food that was brought to the center was outrageous, could eat it all. And but they were just so filled with joy to serve the monks. And so I did that. And some years later, my wife and I and other some other friends, we went another time maybe once or twice more, I don't know. And at that point, we were given I think 30 Day visas. So we were at that time we were allowed to travel and going cookies family helped us get visas to go up to mo book and some other places. And so it was it was fantastic to just spend a month being a hippie again in Burma. Really enjoying.
Host 2:12:22
So when you went and 73 and then 78 I assume Mother's Day Yama was there was WebU say it also present when you're
Barry Lapping 2:12:29
waiting. I think he died shortly after. Maybe the first time I went, but I was not one of the people that met him unfortunately, I know there are a number of Westerners who I know that did meet him. You know and you know this is another he is another really good example, waiting saya doll was not of this tradition, as we know it. Wave aside was the one that told Ooba kin to start teaching WebU Sayadaw was incredibly highly respected and accomplished and obtain and he attained obviously a lot. But he was very close to U ba Khin so in spite of not being in the same tradition, that essence of what Ooba kin was teaching and what's way beside or thought was the same. And I think that's a lesson we could all learn from, you know, with different traditions even in the west now.
Host 2:13:23
So your time at IMC you didn't have the fortune of meeting WebU but you did meet mother Sam is
Barry Lapping 2:13:30
quite a real you know, mortgagee spoke really highly of her. He says she was two years his his junior in in physical age. But at the same time he he's the one I think they gave him the name saya which means teacher, mother, mother teacher, and because he thought of her as his mother, so she was very, very gracious and, and helpful to many of the Western students that came in. We knew we knew were in Burma. We knew we knew her when she was she would come to India, you know? So we got to know her quite well. And I also got to know just so you realize you're an intern, it was my first teacher. So I also got to know, excuse me, I got to know Deepa ma very well, also, in those early years. And I've never met somebody who was kind of so empty as she was she was just such a wonderful human being. Well, you know, she lived in Calcutta, she used to come to Bodhgaya once a year in the winter when manildra de was there. And because she didn't speak English, she would come with her daughter, who I think spoke English but an interview was always a translator for her. So we just got to spend a lot of time with her quality time talking to her about the Dhamma talking about our own practice, and, and being with someone who really exhibited qualities of, of egolessness I dare say, and just a wonderful human being I loved it very much
Host 2:15:00
thing I realized I'm also curious with that we touched upon an earlier era and didn't get this question out. And you're talking about these, this early spiritual community. And you you mentioned some of the names you and Michael Stein and others have stayed with the tradition and, and going his teachings, others, Graham White is, is in the Mahasi field. And then you have people like Joseph Goldstein, and Sharon Salzberg, that are more independent teachers. And so I wonder, as you reflect back on this time, I mean, there must be some nostalgia as you think of these early days, when the organization identities, labels weren't so much there, you're all just young people practicing these these different traditions as they're coming and growing in that Michael Stein does a marvelous job describing just the feeling and the energy of those early times. And then as the years move on, as it does with anything, there start to be cliques or labels or organizations identifications, and people move in different directions and identify with it becomes less free flowing and less, kind of nebulous, as people start to move more towards identifications and, and labels as happens in life. And so what are your thoughts as you look back on those early years and and your time there, and then as you look on the growth of the movement, and probably into something you never could have imagined that, at that time into what this this organization, movement, whatever you want to call it, what it's become? Well,
Barry Lapping 2:16:27
clearly back in those early years, early 70s. There was not much differentiation, we meant, like I say, my ninja sat next to going could you my first course. So there wasn't much in the way of differentiation. But I do say I do want to say that and I loved all those people, I still consider them my friends, let us like Michael said, we try to meet with Joseph as often as we can. And you know, I can say that when I ever whenever I get together with Joseph, even if it's been a number of years, we haven't seen each other, it's still like we had never been apart. He still was wonderful, nicest human beings I've ever met in my life. And so all credit to Joseph, the one thing that Goenka G was really strong on and this was from the very beginning Joah is that he wanted people to get liberated this technique is not about just living stress free lives in the world. This technique is about deconditioning our minds, which is the hardest thing that human being can do. Clearly there's nothing nothing more difficult than that. So when did you want it was people to make that strong determination that if that's what you want to do with your life, whatever technique this tradition that tradition doesn't make any difference but take it to its its ultimate limit get liberated. And he was he was never a fan of people mixing techniques a little bit of okay, I'll do a little bit of glycogen technique. I'll do a little bit of Mahasi side or then I'm gonna go over here and do a little bit from from the Thai tradition or whatever it is Burmese tradition. He was not a fan of that never. But he only people to make a decision. You know, you remember from the 10 day course. What is one of the last things he says on day 10 night when he talks about Diggle Well, 10 feet, 10 feet 10 feet. But not to do that, because you're never going to reach water. Don't go to this technique for 15 minutes another technique for another couple of days another one for once you find the technique, the tradition that you are very comfortable with, stay with it, take it to its ultimate limit and get liberated, which means we're all going to learn the same thing. And he chose not to and Dukkha. The early years, this was all one big sort of confused, happy family. As the years went on, you know, Joseph came back, Sharon came back, others came back. And people started practicing in their own way, opening up other centers, etc, all that fine. But what he didn't want people to do was to mix techniques, even now what does he say in his own 10 day courses to new students? You know, regardless of what you have done in the past for these 10 days, do just this technique, so you can actually see if this is beneficial for you. Now, once somebody finds that a particular technique is beneficial for them, it seems to me they've reached the stage, let's say within that satipatthana suta, where they understand the arising and passing of phenomena, stay with it, take it to its ultimate end, which is the liberation of mind as opposed to starting all over somewhere else. Once you've reached such a subtle stage anyway, acquainted, you knew that right from the beginning, he was very forgiving, because this was all new. He didn't want to put people off. But as the years went on, it's not that he wasn't forgiving. He was always forgiving. But as time went on, people got more and more serious of about their practice, he emphasized this aspect of it more and more. It's not that he withdrew it, you had to do this technique. This is the only technique on the planet. He never said that. People might have put those words in his mouth. But he never said that. I know I was in the room when Sharon and Joseph and Danny Goleman went to meet him the last time he was here. He has so much love for those people I've never seen so much meant the flowing. You know, he always considered all of those people. And I'm sure he did to the day he died. His children, you know, and even rom Das, you know, he loves rom Das, he said, when he was on tour in 2002, he said, If I knew rom Das was here and sick, I would have gone to see him he didn't even know. So he was that kind of a man, you know. So it's not a matter of, you know, exclusion of anybody. It's a matter of inclusion of everybody, but But trying to make sure people practice whatever they're comfortable with, to get the final goal, liberation of mind. But with that experience, if somebody reaches some somewhat more mature stages of practice, that's going to give them a great deal of confidence, or enlightened devotion. Why would they want to do anything else, all of a sudden, some teacher, whoever it is, has given me the path to get enlightened, and I reach a certain stage, my gratitude toward that teacher is going to increase even more. It doesn't mean I need to go to another person to start all over again, let my gratitude arise, I'll understand everything even more. This is I think we're going to do is coming from and I believe it's the right thing. And we have to keep in mind, why we are meditating. I've said it before, but it bears repeating at the end of this interview, we are meditating to purify the mind to its ultimate limit as much as we can in this life. And so if we are not doing that, if we're just playing games, a little bit of this and a little bit of that, we're not going to get what we really want. It's not what we came for. So that emphasis on enlightened devotion, based on experience, and taking the technique to its ultimate limit with any technique is absolutely critical if you want to reach that goal
Host 2:22:30
right Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story which also intersects with this wider movement and teaching and putting that on the radar in the public space. I think it's it's great to hear your story and journey and for all of those who have been impacted by by by Burma itself or by different spiritual traditions or this particular tradition.
Barry Lapping 2:22:57
I think this is this is very relevant for listeners to come away with you welcome. Happy to do it.
Host 2:23:24
We want to take a moment to introduce you to our nonprofit better burma's online shop, which features handicrafts sourced from artists and communities scattered throughout Myanmar, far from being mass produced knockoffs. The pieces we offer are unique and handmade, reflecting the wide diversity of different peoples found throughout the country. When Myanmar experienced its transition period moving from democracy in the late 2010s, after decades of harsh military dictatorship, many Burmese crafts people hope their beautiful work and finally be appreciated beyond the country. When Myanmar experience this transition period, moving towards democracy in late 2010s, after decades of harsh military dictatorship, many Burmese crafts people hoped their beautiful work could finally be appreciated beyond the country's borders. But sadly, this was not to be so. Following the military coup, many skilled artists in suddenly found all possibility of continuing their livelihood closed off and against struggling just to feed their families. With this in mind, we prioritize working with artisans from disadvantaged and vulnerable backgrounds, because we know just how hard it can be to survive at the margins of society and Myanmar. This includes such people as those with disabilities, mothers who have contracted HIV AIDS, civil servants on CVM ethnic and religious minorities and more. To view these wonderful pictures please visit alokacrafts.com That's aloka crafts A L O K A C R A F T S one word, alokacrafts.com. Otherwise, please consider a donation to our usual channels. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution in any form, currency or tree Hands for method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian immediate initiatives in those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by a nonprofit mission that or Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun, boom. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website betterburma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cars and both websites accept credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App me simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info@betterburma.org That's betterburma. One word, spelled b e t t e r b u r m a.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar available at alokacrafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's alokacrafts spelled A L O K A C R A F T S one word alokacrafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.