Transcript: Episode #232: No Diplomatic Immunity
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Host 0:35
if this is your first time listening to our podcast welcome, our programming brings a diversity of voices connected me and Mark to share their perspectives, thoughts and reflections about what has been happening there since the military coup in 2021. All of our guests share one thing in common, a deep personal stake in the ongoing crisis. And it is an honor for us to be able to bring their voices into your ear buds. But however difficult it may be to hear some of their stories, we hope that you will come away with a deeper and more nuanced understanding of what is happening there.
Brad 2:23
Welcome back, we are honored today to have a particularly esteemed guest returning Kasit Piromya, who will be speaking about an article that he recently published in the Bangkok Post, but more broadly about the Thai perspective, and the Thai attitudes towards the Myanmar military and the ongoing disaster. But before we get into that, Congress, it thank you very much for speaking to us a second time. And I would like to give you the opportunity to introduce yourself for those in our audience who might not remember you.
Kasit Piromya 2:56
My name is Cassie Piromya. And I have been going through three phases of my life. The first one is as a carrier diplomat at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Thailand for 37 years. And the second phase after my retirement, I went into politics, both as a former politician and as a political activist. And now my in my third phase, about a decade ago, I am more or less in working on the advocacy for democracy and human rights, more or less from the NGO or from the civil society organization. But in general, at the moment, I am an interested senior citizen of Thailand, my interest has to do with domestic politics as well as international politics. And I do give comments, I give lectures and all of these and so on, quite critical of anything that is not conducive to the freedom of the people and the participation of the people in the affairs of the state. And so on. Thank you.
Brad 4:23
Thank you for lunch for that. And thank you very much for the advocacy work that you do and that that you have been doing for quite some time. And speaking of the advocacy work, you you're quite vocal you you don't necessarily publish often but when you do publish, you are quite direct and your publications gather quite a bit of attention your your most recent article in the Bangkok Post a wrong approach on Myanmar. It's very, very bluntly titled very to the point. You are quite critical. It seems of The the deputy Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs in Thailand and the Minister for Foreign Affairs in Thailand for not doing enough with regards to Myanmar. So I wonder, can you sort of talk us through what motivated you to write this article and what you're really trying to, to say to the Thai government with this,
Kasit Piromya 5:20
I think the two times I write a lot, I write two articles per week for Thai, daily newspapers. And occasionally I write articles in the English language to be published at the Bangkok Post or some time international agency like the diplomat, and so on. But since I have to prepare myself and so on, for the Thai articles, I have less of the time to do the English one. That is the first pi, not that I would not like one to write in English, but I'm more held up with the, with the articles in the Thai language and a lot of panel discussions and guest lecturers and all of these and so on. But I will try to do more from now on to write more articles in the English language, that's the first point. Second, I am have been a sort of working as a diplomat or as a politician, but I think my position is to be honest, and truthful. And straight forward. And I have done this inside the parliament outside the parliament. And in every I think, forum, regional, national or international forum and so on, I do speak my mind on the basis of, I think, a bit of, I think, nationalism, common concern for the welfare of ASEAN and so on. And I think I'm a sort of a peace loving person, I call for diplomacy and dialogue. So, in that, and I have no inhibition in that way in speaking from the principal up point of view, and I am not being intimidated, and I am not afraid by the deep state anywhere and so on. And so, that has been my position or a lot. Now, when it comes to the Myanmar issue, at the time Myanmar relationships, I have been involved with the time Myanmar relationship since my diplomatic carrier 50 years ago, to this very day, so it's not something new to me or of a surprise to me see, and all along I have been pushing for more transparency and for the Thai government, whichever government to be more concerned about the Myanmar people and not to be in or or in collusion with the authorities or the government in being especially authoritarian what. So that has been my position all along. And with the coup d'etat in Myanmar three years ago, my position and the organization that I used to be involved with have been against the military takeover and the atrocity that has been ensuing or has been happening since then, until at this very minute, second and so on. Second, in relation to that, I have been speaking out to parliamentarians to politician political parties to the Thai public in general to the media, academic world, that the Thai government must take the into consideration the welfare of the Myanmar people as a top priority, and not that of the authoritarian regime in Naypyidaw. So that has been my consistent policy. Second, I have been calling for the open border to allow the refugees and political asylum seeker to come in. Because that has been a sort of a historical and traditional record of the Kingdom of Thailand or even the kingdom of Siam centuries ago, that we have been a country of refuge for all the neighbor citizens coming from Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, from the Myanmar site, or people from far away. We have been an open society it and we have been able to assimilate those coming from afar running from the NGO and so on. But for the past few years, the last government under General Prayut chan o Cha, who also staged the coup d'etat a few years back. And second government at the moment is a coalition one and at least two political parties of Thailand military pact. So in that sense, that is a continuation of the policies towards the situation in Myanmar, because the major player behind the foreign policy direction of Thailand is the military establishment, especially the army. And at the same time, top brass of the Thai military past and present have been having a sort of family Lele cordial relationship with the Myanmar counterpart for the benefit of the two armies for the benefit of the two countries to a certain extent, but one could not detect the collusion for crimes against humanity. And for the criminal activities across the Thai Myanmar border, illegal trade in drugs in small arms, endangered species, animals and human trafficking, and the scam Center and the illegal smuggling of the precious stones from Myanmar, the timber from Myanmar all along the time Myanmar, and all of this one could not help but to feel that all of the criminal activities and so on have been able to happen. Because somehow there is some sort of the informal tacit cooperation give and take between the two military authorities of the Kingdom of Thailand and the Republic of Myanmar. So in that sense, I have been critical, and have been opposed, have been opposing to all of these criminal activities and have been urging the Thai government and the military establishment to do things in the open, you know, to act in a more humanitarian humanistic way to welcome the refugees look after them, not to send them back, not to detain them and all of this and so on, it has been my constant position. All along. The article that I just recently published, the bank poses I sort of a combination of the things that I have been manifesting myself all along, and why so direct this time why to to this deputy prime minister and the foreign minister could brand pay, because he professed to come from an elected democratically elected government. So in that sense, he should be acting independently without being sort of, I think informally under the purview. And under the shadow of the Thai military establishment. He is He comes from and he come, he is an elected member of the Thai cabinet, he must have the heart and the soul and the spirit for the aspiration of the Myanmar people that would like to put the military back into the barracks. And to have Myanmar again live with democracy with freedom and openness and so on. But has that has not been the case, and the fact that means the Grand Prix, de did sort of sort of, I think sign a bilateral agreement with the military counterpart in Myanmar. That is, I think and becoming sinful indeed, for a Thai elected government to be cooperating with the authoritarian and quite cruel or military regime. That is not acceptable. And as a person who has been, I think, a friend of Myanmar or along an advocate an advocate of democracy and freedom, and for the friendship between the Myanmar and the Thai people, I cannot condone, I cannot accept and I have to be against the position of the current Thai government as expressed and conducted by the current Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of Thailand. Pure and simple.
Brad 14:49
We appreciate the the frankness, and I was simply unaware of the sheer volume of content that you're producing in the Thai language, and I'd be very interested to see if there are translations of those available. But looking at at your English language content, I think before we dive into this article, it seems that it would be necessary for us to discuss the current type political situation. I believe the last time we spoke, we spoke just after the Thai elections were held. And if I recall correctly, the the largest political party failed to create a government and there is currently a as you said, coalition government between my time politics support, but I think the the military back to political party and the the party of what we are referring to here as the Shinawatra party, which I know is not its correct name. So these these forces, has there been a significant change in the political culture, the political attitudes, the political establishment in Thailand as a result of these elections? Or would you say there just is a continuation?
Kasit Piromya 16:02
No, I think one has to look into the contents of the present constitution of Thailand. Okay, promulgated I think about in 90 in the six, seven years ago, okay. It is semi democratic, semi authoritarian piece of document that tie constitution. And why it is so undemocratic is because of the fact that after the elections, the party that wins the majority of the votes by the people, does that become automatically the leading party to form the government and to have its leader as the Prime Minister of Thailand, there is no sort of an automatic automatic state city, like I think the Japanese elections or the Indonesia and Malaysia and or the United Kingdom, or many of the, I think, democratic kingdoms in Europe and so on. The person Pty constitution stipulates that the election of the Prime Minister has to be done by the parliament. So the result of the voting by the people is one thing. But the voting for the Prime Minister has to be done within the parliament. And inside a parliament, there are two chambers. One is the Senate. And second is the House of Representative members of the House of Representatives being elected at the ballot box by the Thai citizen. But the members of the Upper House or the Senate for the President, one was being nominated, elected and decided by the military establishment that stage the coup d'etat, I think, in the year 2014. And Constitution also said that the Senate, the senator 250 of them, who are not elected by the people have the power and the right to vote for the Thai prime minister or the candidate for the prime ministership of Thailand. So in that sense, the move forward, that won the popular elections with 14 million votes, the highest beating all other parties and so on. Then they have to nominate a prime minister candidate, and he was defeated in the parliament. And the votes that helped to defeat him were the votes of the 250 senators. So in that sense, the election of the Thai Prime Minister is not I think, an open affair. It's what you call half elected and half nominated put it in that sense. So the move forward party, instead of becoming the government and the lead coalition partner and so on, was put in the position of being the leading opposition party. And then there was the collusion of the other conservative parties led by poor tie up the Chyna water family, they came second so it became they were became the number one party to form the coalition. of a man. And the other four or five major coalition partners, the other four or five parties were parties that I think at least two of them were parties that were being backed by the military establishment. The other two, were I thought, very Asada, very conservative, power hungry type of political parties without any ideology. You know, they only use election as a means to get to the power. But I think in the heart of heart, I don't think they are democratic. They don't value the fact of the principle of democracy as such. So at the moment, we have a coalition of more or less conservative political parties. That is the situation.
Brad 20:49
And so would you say, then, that the policies that are being set by the executive have not really changed since the before the election? Because you seem to be saying that the senators are hangovers from from the previous system. And so it doesn't seem like it would be in the interest of the Senate to allow a government to form that would radically change the policy of the executive branch. So is it just a continuation of the channel HR policy set?
Kasit Piromya 21:22
I think I think one has to separate two things. You know, what we were speaking a few minutes ago was about the the coming into being up the Prime Minister of Thailand and the coalition party. Then the second one, which you are about to ask me is about the policy direction of the new government. And I still see that not only the foreign policy direction toward Myanmar, but overall foreign policy direction of Thailand, as well as domestic development policies, I still see this more as a continuation of the from the last government. And that is being demonstrated by the fact that the current Prime Minister still use uses the same language as his predecessor, General, you're putting a lot of concentration on how to develop Thai economy, only through tourism industry. That's the first point. Second, how to bring about more economic activities has to be done only through populace policy measures. You don't hand out giving money to people and all of this, and especially the so called digital wallet project, which uses billions and billions of US dollars, and at the moment is not yet implemented, because the whole program is not yet finalized. And there has been so much controversial controversies and so on. But again, it's part of that populist policy measures, very much initiated and implemented, or various type of populist policy measure by the last government, and this new government, and a civilian man Mr. Seta hasn't put any hasn't come out with any concrete proposals. That has to do with the economic industrial restructuring of Thailand, how to move Thailand forward in this digital world, in the world, that we have to spend more time on climate change. You know, so it's only towards tourism, and populism, nothing much. And one can compare the policy measures with countries nearby like Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, India, or even Bangladesh, for that matter that each of the government of this country and so on, have much more constructive and concrete policy measures to keep to move the country forward. But Thailand under the person, the large government and the present government has been bogged down with the notion of tourism as the god of savior and populous policy measures. Not too much sophisticated in the thinking at the depth of the thinking at all, how to get Thailand out of this predicament. And day by day. I think we are standing still, while countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia are moving much faster and more forward than Thailand. We are stuck up at the moment with tourism With populous policy measures, and with a lack of leadership that lacks vision and the general know how of how to run the affairs of the state.
Brad 25:14
And that's certainly quite a quite a grim view as far as Myanmar is concerned, because we know that under the previous government, the approach to Myanmar was, as you were highlighting a collusion and collaboration with the thermadata, Myanmar military, and you alluded to some sort of mutual benefit. And I just wonder whether you could expand on that. What benefit does friendship with the tomato represent for the Thai military or the Thai government, especially because as you have noted, rampant criminal activity exists and has existed for a long time along the Myanmar Thai border. And it does not appear that that cooperation between the two militaries has resolved this criminality, whether its weapons, whether it's drugs, whether it's teak, your red restaurants, or whether it's refugees and human trafficking, what was the the advantage to this cooperation?
Kasit Piromya 26:15
Well, I think I suppose on from the ties, I have no evidence Okay, I have no evidence, but I am old enough to sense the wrong things, that from the Thai side, say some of the bad soldiers of Thailand, send arms, fuel, even for the aircraft, send food, medicine, basic necessities of life, you know, refrigerator or even fan, electric fan and torches and so on, to the tatmadaw leadership for the soldiers for the families of the soldiers and for the supporters of the summit, in exchange for what in exchange for the precious stones, gems and various type of rubies or whatever and so but you have a lot then on the tight side, the bad soldiers can sell it in the I don't know open or close market to make profit. Then both sigh can make profit from the supplied of construction materials for the casinos for the scam centers, or allow the time Myanmar and even something so surprising, how can that tie site supply electricity to all the illegal casinos, scam center brothels and so on? And how could do this? Could this be done? Definitely it could not be done without the cooperation between the two military establishment and maybe to a certain extent, the arm element of these various ethnic groups and so on, they might be working together why on one side to earn money on the other side they might be fighting each others and so on. And on the human trafficking it's about how can we have African nationals and other national from the Asia Pacific region working in a scam centers when they are being bused from the savannah poem airport of Thailand to best off to the border. All of this buses and vans that carry foreigners to be induced and in place and as slaves in this cancer that could not have happened without the collusion of the corruptor type policemen, border police, immigration and the military officers and so on. So is a racket that's happening because there are 10s and 1000s of foreigners in the scam centers in the casinos and so on. It doesn't confine to the Burmese they tie these are to that AI and all of these criminal activities cannot be done without the knowledge full knowledge of the commanders of the ability establishment on both sides.
Brad 29:39
But so I want to clarify because this is quite a quite a quite a strong statement. And I understand that you're saying that you're you're not presenting evidence. You're not stating this as fact this is your your conjecture, but you are nevertheless conjecturing that the motivation of the Thai military establishment in cooperating with the Dumbledore was is not the betterment of Thailand and Thai security, but rather was the betterment of the military leadership's bank accounts
Kasit Piromya 30:08
Well, I do not say that the whole Thai military is bad, okay, those who are in charge some of them are really bad and I just put my case okay I stand firm with this, that there are some bad military officers, policemen, immigration and so on, because I cannot foresee any criminal activities ever can happen in Thailand and at the time Myanmar border without the cooperation the support or even the implementation or even closing one eye. Yeah, the presence of the Thai security officers of all sorts
Brad 30:57
understand, So, speaking of the border, that there is something that you you mentioned before you are advocating for opening that border. And this is particularly important because we have seen on the other side of Myanmar, India is suspending the free movement regime, which previously did allow large numbers of Myanmar refugees to seek refuge in India. And now of course, it is much more difficult. On the Thai side, there has been large scale, a movement of refugees into Thailand, some of them have simply crossed without documentation. Some of them have entered Thailand for the purpose of finding work or for the purpose of studying, but really are remaining in Thailand because they cannot return to Myanmar. But across the board, we are hearing that obtaining a refugee status in Thailand is proving quite difficult. Can you shed some light on what the Thai government's attitude is towards the Myanmar people who have come into Thailand and are seeking protection from the ongoing crisis?
Kasit Piromya 32:04
As I mentioned a few minutes ago, that the Kingdom of Thailand or even the kingdom of Siam before that the old name has been a country of refuge for centuries. Because one of the Thai past Prime Minister, Mr. unpin Yara toon is a descendant of the mods for Myanmar. The mournes minority is the man kingdom from Myanmar. And so that's the beauty of it. That people who came whether they are current currently is the mind or the Berman and so on the chance. They used to be able to find refuge in Thailand. And they were able to become the citizen and became senior officials in the Kingdom of Thailand. Even hochiminh, the number one leader of Vietnam at one time and he was struggling against the French colonization colonial master and so on. He did take a short refuge in the in a province in the north northeast of Thailand. And when General Aung San was fighting against the Japanese or the Okay, the comeback of the British, I think at one time he was also been aided by the Thai side. That is the whole beauty of it. And in the 1988 when there was a big thing uprising in Myanmar, a lot of Burmese also came and the remnants of them at the moment they are in a camp 90,000 of them. They have been here for 30 years, 40 years. So why can't we do more? We used to have a million Vietnamese boat people in the 1980s. We have millions of Cambodians during the Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia, and also before that the civil war in in Cambodia, among the I think the the what you call Khmer Rouge, and the nationalists and so on. And we have 1000s and 1000s of Laotians coming over to Thailand during the Laotian civil war again, between I think whatever the royalists and the communists are nationalists and the communists and so on. We have been opening our border. And we were successful in looking after them in cooperation with the UN agencies and with many of the donor countries and so on. And now there is a civil war going on in Myanmar is three years already. People have to be displaced internally. They have no food no medicine, no water. How can any Thai government just stand still at the border, do the push back, or even to allow a temporary review for two or three days and push them back again, pregnant woman, sick people, children and all of this. When we have the ability, we have the resources to do so. When we the country is a country of religions, we are Buddhists, we are Christiana, we are Muslims. And each of the religions said that you got to help your neighbor when they are in distress. And we can we don't have to do all of this alone. Because there are so many foundations, and religious organizations all over the world. And including governments like Australia, New Zealand, members of the EU, Japan, United States, Canada that are more than willing to help. They are only waiting for the Thai government to open the border, set up a number of welcome centers, do the processing provide the food, and so on, give the shelter. And even to work with the UN agency and some of the donor countries for resettlement in third countries, we have done that before nothing new. And it is definitely not a burden. Second is that if we were to open the borders, we have to provide the food and the basic necessity and medicine and Thai factories, the Thai industries will benefit because there will be a lot of purchases to be made procurements and so on with the Thai budget, taxpayer money, but a lot of money would be coming from development, funding or assistance and so on. So the Thai industries, the Thai Arctic project will benefit from having another market to sell their products and their produce and so on. It's not a burden to the Thai government. And we as a fellow human being, we have to help people when they are in difficulties. But the last government and the present government have the heart of darkness and acceptable from my point of view, as a fellow human being is not acceptable for the Thai government to be so unkind and lacked the feeling of humanity.
Brad 37:43
Absolutely. And so turning back then to the article itself that you wrote, it's, it's even worse than this, because of course, we're not just talking about the government, not taking action to help the refugees that they could be helping. But you're saying here in the article that the minister had solitary talks, and you also just said that they signed a bilateral agreement. And this is, this is quite, quite shocking. And again, you write very bluntly, you are you are very, to the point, and I love this, I'm quoting your words, refusing to acknowledge that the junta is the sole reason for this destruction of democracy, society and millions of lives is damaging to the government's credibility on its own beautiful sentence, beautiful sentiment. But I'm just wondering what what is going on then in the minds of the Thai government, because to you and to me and to our audience, it is is self evident, that the junta is the reason for this, that without the hunter staging a coup, we would not have a civil war, we would not have these dead men and women and children, we would not have the destruction, we would not have the economic disaster that we have. Why is the Thai government pretending otherwise? Do they believe that the Myanmar military has the possibility of winning this conflict? And if they don't believe it, why are they pretending otherwise?
Kasit Piromya 39:19
First First, I don't make up sentences about the the activities of the Thai Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister, I think this is something that he gave interviews and so on. It was in the international news all over the world. Because I think it did take place somewhat at the during the thing World Economic Forum, that was meeting in Switzerland and so on. So I took it from that one. And you know, I'm not privy to any secret documents and so on. Okay. So having learned that in the open news and so on, I reacted to that. If I were wrong, or I misquote that and so on, then the foreign minister, Deputy Prime Minister has every right the whole Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the whole the Thai government can refute me that I miss understood, misread, Miss hurt and so on. But so far, that has not been the case. So it's somewhat confirm of this, I think bilateral undertaking, okay, or as initiated by the Deputy Prime Minister as well, Foreign Minister of Thailand. Okay. That's the first point, what is the whole rationale and all of this, the only one sentence that I had been hearing from the previous prime minister, Foreign Minister to the present prime minister, Foreign Minister, deputy and so on, is that said that because we have 2400 kilometers common border with Myanmar, therefore, we have to have sort of a special you need lateral policy measures. And that has been saying that so in that sense, we don't have to go with the five point consensus of the ASEAN community. We don't have to consult anyone, including whoever is the country that is the current chair of ASEAN. Okay, last year, it was Indonesia, now is is Laos. So, the fact that we have 2400 kilometers of common border with Myanmar is something so special for Thailand, that we can do anything that we like this regarding our friends and partner inside the ASEAN community, this regarding international humanitarian law, the norms and practices about humanitarian functions and human rights and all of this as if that because of these 2040 kilometer, we are so special, I cannot accept that one. Because Bangladesh have almost 300 kilometres common border with Myanmar. India has I think about 1000 something. And China also has a long comment border. But they did not come with that argument that because we have the common border, therefore, we we are so special. In that sense, then, if Bangladesh, India, and China and Thailand all have common borders, respectively, with Myanmar, then if I were the foreign minister, then I would have invited the Bangladeshi the Indians and the Chinese to come to Bangkok and let's coordinate that would have made much more sense. And at the same time, I would have invited the other eight ASEAN members to the meeting, as we add the in the ASEAN family and coordinate in a more proper manner. And Thailand can say to the rest that Thailand has to do more or differently from the five point consensus of the ASEAN community. That is diplomacy, that is civilized way of doing things, but not a unilateral thing. Okay, oblivious to what has been agreed upon, and so on and go about your way and inform everyone not through the diplomatic notes, or at a diplomatic meeting. But through international news agency. I think it's the lack of good manners and courtesy and sense of proportion and respect to your fellow members of ASEAN and to the friends and so on. That's a five second is that so if you have common border, what is so special that you have to do? But what the Thai government of the past and the President has been using that special long border issue to have a love affair with the military as well Richmond of Myanmar's pure and simple than the rest or related to criminal activities. And how can the current Thai foreign minister said that I am an elected government when you are in love with the military counterpart and forget altogether, the existence of the N ug and UCCC RP H. And the various ethnic state government demand the current the current knees, the the shanwa the kokang. The Americans are Even the Rohingya and so on. So how can how can how can you do that? And if you come from an elected government, you are a Democrat. And what happened to the all types of Myanmar people, millions and millions of them that have come out onto the street to protest to do the what you call civil obedience, and many now have taken arms to oppose the act of atrocity by the TAT mandore. And how can pay Foreign Minister will come from elected government ignore all the democratic niceties and the happenings and the reality on the ground? And why is he or why has he invaded? The tatmadaw has been on the defeat, along with the coup d'etat is three years or how can you have a coup d'etat and last 333 years, one would have expected the Dakota would end in two or three days and military, the tatmadaw would control the whole country is not only not able to control but losing crowds, day by day. And a few days ago, three Brigadier General were being executed by senior gentlemen online, the leader of the coup, and his friends and so on. Simply because the three brigadier generals of the Myanmar military establishment did not want to see his men, diamond died, so they have to surrender or they have to withdraw saving lives. Because they know that they could not oppose the giant forces of the resistance revolutionary group to save lives of more 1000 and Southend, soldiers, happy led to the loss of their lives and so on. That's a reflection of a quality and the speed within the Myanmar establishment. And that's for the Thai Prime Minister, the Thai deputy prime minister and the foreign minister to realize the reality on the ground, adjust to the reality and behave in a sort of a democratic civilized manner. And the whole purpose purpose of my article of my interview of my whatever, is to bring Sense and Sensibility to the members of the Thai cabinet at the military establishment.
Brad 47:51
And in the end, I do want to come back to that article then because you you actually quantify a little bit you say, and I'm quoting here, since the coup took place, Thailand has exported 10s of billions of dollars worth of arms, military equipment and raw materials, to the Damodar to be used in all facets of their war against the Myanmar people. I'm I mean, that that is a shocking figure, to to know that this much lethal military assistance was given by the Thai either the Thai government or the Thai military, to to the dama door. And of course, we know how these things were being used against against unarmed civilians in most cases. I'm wondering how does Thailand justify having done this? Because, as you say, Thailand goes well beyond merely inherent support. This is very material support for a military that we know has been committing terrible terrible crimes against civilians, what is the justification here? Maybe
Kasit Piromya 48:51
for answering question, I have to say I have no evidence. But I had been following your I talked to many of my Myanmar friends, I followed news I thought I met many people. So this is what I said. If my statement as you just read is incorrect. Then I can be corrected by the Thai government I would offer my deepest apologies. Okay, I in remitted form, but so far, there has not been any reaction. That's the first point. Second, I did mention a few minutes ago. What is that tide? corrupted? Military is what you would get if I supplied what I have mentioned or you have just read, okay. Myanmar is one of the best sources of gems stones. You don't have to have them you know, in volume gets and all the precious stones would be good enough.
Brad 50:00
First of all, it just comes down to that
Kasit Piromya 50:03
point I could not help but dreams or visualize facilitation of all the illegal activities and so on.
Brad 50:12
Well, I would have
Kasit Piromya 50:14
imagined to some extent, why why should I give everything to the Myanmar site if I don't get anything in? In return, but I'm not talking about the army establishment as a whole. I'm talking about certain individuals with power inside the army or inside the immigration, or inside the border police or inside the Ministry of Interior.
Brad 50:42
Okay, to clarify, we're not talking about the ministry,
Kasit Piromya 50:45
you're talking about the entity. Right, right. Right. So let me clear on that one. Okay. Now, would you repeat the question again, then I answer. Yeah,
Brad 50:58
it's just, I just want to clarify them that it's the the motivation, the justification for for giving weapons is not something like the ministry is giving weapons, I am,
Kasit Piromya 51:08
I am quite sure that there was supplied of whatever that is needed by the tatmadaw. has, has not or has not been fully discussed, inside the army, and within the Ministry of Defense, definitely not within the National Security Council, chaired by the Prime Minister of Thailand, and definitely not in the Thai cabinet, and definitely not in the various committee of the Thai parliament, both the Senate and the House of Representatives. So it is not a national undertaking. But it's an undertaking by certain individuals with power. The meeting between the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Defence inside the National Security Council chaired by the Prime Minister and bring it to the cabinet and the cabinet, bring it to the various committees or to the Plenary Session of the House of Representatives or the Senate or the joint session of the two chambers, the Plenary Session of the parliament as a whole, to put everything on the table, is it through and for what Mr. Ducey period has been accusing, or implying and so on. And let's, I think we look at the whole foreign policy approach towards Myanmar. And if the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, the foreign minister especially is honest, and true to form, he must do something. But he cannot go on with setting up humanitarian corridor, which is a fast you cannot set a humanitarian corridor in the midst of a civil war. And where is the humanitarian corridor from Thailand to Myanmar, when most of the border areas is being controlled by the minorities their demands, the current the current knee and the shine? There is not much of that direct area control by the Berman. That Manda, with the Thai side, you give me a place where to set up the corridor, you can do the air corridor, but on the ground? Do you have to get the permission from the current the current knees and the shine? Or the while the polka? Or the mount? Let the Thai Prime Minister tell us at the moment, where are the corridors? And once you have the corridors, where do the humanitarian needs goods and so on? being channeled to whom? To the tatmadaw families and their supporters. Also to that need the displace Myanmar people also to the minorities, the current the current news, and so on and so on? Or is it an exclusive humanitarian corridor to support the families and their supporters of the tatmadaw so that they can continue to keep on killing the Myanmar people. And why should you do it? Why don't you bring in the United Nations agencies? And how transparent can it be as to the routing, the transportation of the humanitarian business then let the foreign minister give me the master plan. So that I can check it by satellite and by the drone facilities and so on. Where do they really go?
Brad 54:57
I mean, just just in this discussion, it sounds Very much like the the Thai government has been not transparent at all in in what they're doing with regards to Myanmar, how they're doing it and why they're doing it is that is it fair to say that they are not communicating just in general to the people about their actions regarding their MA? Yes.
Kasit Piromya 55:21
Because I haven't heard that this Myanmar thing? My my answer is that I don't think the foreign minister did take up this issue with the Minister of Defense, or with the National Security Council, the Secretariat, Secretary General, say so there has not been much of the discussion, he did not go to the parliament to inform the parliament. So there is been a sort of remarkable lack of coordination. And maybe the prime, the foreign minister said I only report to the Prime Minister is enough, forgetting that we are in a democratic society as he alleged to be a democratic cabinet, but the way he's acting is very personalized, and in an undemocratic
Brad 56:11
manner. But so how important is this? Voting. So
Kasit Piromya 56:16
governance is a property of governance. And there is no such thing as check and balance, and the flow of information and so on. So that's why there is a need for an article, like mine article to come out,
Brad 56:31
does Thailand have a Freedom of Information Act or something equivalent that civilians can use to request this?
Kasit Piromya 56:39
We have, we have, I think we have all the civilized laws. We have constitutional court, we have Election Commission, we have the office of the auditing, we have the counter corruption and all of this, you have ombudsman office, we have all the conduits of democracy, but the enforcement side, human capacity side. All of this has to be done under the traditional Thai ways of doing things of connection. Paired inclined, patronage system. And running through all of this is rent seeking, and corruption. So you have to look at, you know, all of these in the whole cabinet. And when you ask me why the army corrupted army can do this with the Burma, how it can be done. Because the chief of the army is sleeping somewhere, or the Minister of Defense is sleeping, and not really looking at the whole thing. And not to call a meeting to talk about everything they should invite me also, I would not mind to be invited. They have to hear from everyone, I think, you know, NGOs, people from the civil society. Like myself, I think a lot of us have the NGO working at a time Myanmar, Bata tents, and you know, hundreds of them. But we have not been consulted. And when we say addition, and so on, no answer. I mean, really, the N ug, I joined so many of the open letters to the Thai foreign minister and to the Thai Prime Minister of the last government. Never even one answer. Wow. So, so this is a very guided statement with so many other international and regional NGOs, not even one response.
Brad 58:48
So this is the big question then, because it, it seems like it is necessary for the Thai government to start talking to not not just the NGOs, but to start talking to the national unity government. Because the Thermador aid from all the analysts that we've spoken to in the last couple of months, that Amador has no capacity to win the conflict. That is a statement that multiple respected analysts have put their names to write the energy is an inevitability. It seems that the Thai government is resisting at all cost. You're talking to a political entity, that within six months, one year, maybe two years is going to be the premier political entity in Myanmar. Why are they just trying to delay the inevitable?
Kasit Piromya 59:36
I think first is a fear of the tatmadaw and I don't know why why they are afraid. Second looky loo creative businesses. Okay. And third, the fear to do the right thing. And fourth, ignoring together one of the five pine cones, concepts is of the ASEAN that is to speak to all the stakeholders. So the Thai government has failed completely as a democratic entity, as a member of the ASEAN community and as member of the international community, it has been ignoring all of this simply to keep whatever friendship and common interests together with the, that mother, or maybe the Thai leadership or law doesn't have the guts and the determination to do the right thing. But to play safe, as long as it can, by being nice to the tatmadaw. It's sad for Thailand, that we have had such a leadership and a few personalities that are useless.
Brad 1:01:00
Yeah, I appreciate where you're coming from. With regard to these because
Kasit Piromya 1:01:03
I was involved with Myanmar, especially even on the Nikes site, one thing, we were able to convince that authority military authority at that time to open the border for humanitarian assistance, we worked very hard behind the scene with military authorities of Myanmar at that time to realize their seven point roadmap to have the constitution to have the elections to have the return of civilian rules. We were part and parcel of that the foreign the Thailand was part of that. So we could do it again, for the code costs for the good pneus of the Myanmar and for the Thai, Myanmar friendship, but not what has been going on for the past few years and so on military to military, oddly, without transparency, without governance, and it's not the problem of the Army, as such is the problem of whoever he is the Thai Prime Minister, where are you? How can you allow your army to to do this? Criminal dances with the Myanmar military counterpart? And what happened to the Thai Parliament as a whole? They are elected what are their concern for the plight of the Myanmar people? Many, many personalities and institutions in Thailand have been failing.
We can't blame anyone, we have to blame ourselves. And therefore we have to be open to one another. And my article is not against the Prime Minister against the Thai government. But to induce to push to cut your whatever, that's about time that we take stop and turn around and do the right thing. Pure and simple. Not for the good of the Prime Minister, but for the good of the Thai people and for the good of the Myanmar people.
Brad 1:03:31
Absolutely. But so I wanted then because we on this channel, we focus on Myanmar all the time, that is our only focus. But Thailand is a big country. It's a complicated country. So I wonder how important is Myanmar as a situation the Myanmar refugee crisis, the ongoing war, the instability at the border? How large of a of a thing a topic is this within the Thai political establishment? Is this something that the average Thai person would care about and read about in the newspaper? Or is this pretty low on the priorities list?
Kasit Piromya 1:04:03
I think as a principle first it should be number one priority for the Thai society. But it is not so because the government doesn't inform the people especially the foreign affairs. The Minister of Defense and the interior have not been doing that job to the best of their ability. Second, members of the parliament has been too parochial to domestic oriented or too busy with their own immediate constituency. And policy measures at hand. So they have to improve their vision and I thinking Third, the academic world of Thailand has also been quite muted. Especially lecturers and professors. Political Science and regional cooperation and cross border affairs. So they can be also not doing their job to the fullest. Then fourth that time media to concern with the day to day domestic events. And not much with the surrounding area of the Kingdom of Thailand in spite of all so many problems, but if they were to be peace, and freedom in Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, Malaysia, tourism would be great. cross border trade would be great investment would great. Everyone would be much more happy. That would be so much of the exchanges and so on. See,
Brad 1:06:00
absolutely. But so I want to latch on to something very important that you said, and that you brought up twice the five point consensus by ASEAN. And you mentioned bringing the United Nations agencies in, but I'm even more curious to see how Thailand feels about ASEAN. And ASEAN is role here because with the track 1.5 dialogue, it was argued that Thailand was operating to give the Myanmar military a platform during a time when even ASEAN itself was trying to move away from recognizing the military as as completely legitimate. And and of course, you're saying that Thailand is not pressuring the military to adhere to the five point consensus. And so this has sort of shown our sounds, flaws, I would say in terms of its ability to actually force results. Do you see RCN still as a as a valuable, beneficial entity that can help to resolve this crisis? And do you think that Thailand has a good relationship with ASEAN regarding the Myanmar situation?
Kasit Piromya 1:07:14
I am an ASEAN believer. Okay. And I have been working for ASEAN when I was an officer at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, okay, so So in that sense, I am a believer in regional cooperation. That's the first point. Second, Thailand is a founding member of ASEAN. Third, for the past 40. At least the first 40 years of ASEAN existence. Thailand has been playing one of the leading roles in the ASEAN affairs and ASEAN relationship with the outside world. And in that sense, by tradition, any Thai government or Thai Foreign Minister cannot ignore that sense of history. And successful story about us Thailand's role in the ASEAN leadership. And Thailand has to play a team game, esprit de corps. But that last foreign minister and the president foreign minister as well as the two prime minister has been playing the game alone, splitting and undermining the cohesiveness of the ASEAN community. To me that is unacceptable, and it's a sin. And by going alone, as we mentioned, the past 2013 Then in that sense, Thailand is not giving the respect to the other fellow ASEAN members, especially whoever is in the chair and new chair of ASEAN. So Thailand has been playing the spoiler game or the spoiler during the past three years of the since a coup d'etat and so on, and that's unbecoming A to be that is not acceptable. Thai Prime Minister or Thai foreign minister has no no right? legal or moral to destroy the reputation, sense of decency and portion of the Kingdom of Thailand by doing things that are more tuned to vested interests, than to the interests of the country as a whole And whatever one has to do or we have the kingdom, we have to do it with clarity and with courage. One cannot do things in a sort of a dubious and clear manner without prior consultation or without even prior notification to the RTS members, and especially without even informing the Thai public through the Cabinet meeting or through the parliament, presentation by the foreign minister. So, we are not getting that I think the whole thing is just not right. Not correct. You know, in being in the position of the prime minister or the Foreign Minister, why should we delegate the leadership role? And why should we lessen the cohesiveness of the ASEAN community if you're a member of an organization, you cannot go on and telling everyone that I had to do this differently. But you got to balance what you want to do unilaterally. And as a member of an organization, you have to be able but to ignore your membership in the United Nations in the ASEAN because I have 2400 kilometers common border with Myanmar. That doesn't sound correct. And to have a common border with Myanmar doesn't allow any Prime Minister Foreign Minister of Thailand to do things that would be in contravention to the international law norms and practices. And by extension to be unkind to the Myanmar people who aspire to live without fear in a democratic setting with full freedom. That's
Brad 1:12:21
absolutely, and one of the things I would like to get your input on and this is something that you I know you seem to disagree with. But we have heard from different economic analysts, who are saying that Thailand's policy towards Myanmar has shifted with regards to the exports the above board legal exports, particularly of gas from the Myanmar oil and gas enterprises, that Thailand was much more heavily dependent on Myanmar gas than it currently is. And that Thailand is trying to wean itself off Myanmar gas for reasons, among others.
Kasit Piromya 1:13:03
I haven't heard that Thailand, to the petroleum Authority of Thailand is looking for an alternative. Okay, and so on, you know, even without the coup d'etat and so in Myanmar, the Thai government to get with the petroleum Authority of Thailand had to sit down and said that are over 100% of import needs, what should be the maximum minimum percentage on the gas pipeline for Myanmar then the rest of it would come from from the Middle East, from Malaysia, Brunei, or even from Russia. And third, in how many years more and more renewable and alternative energy would replace the gas, the coal, and the oil that we have to import from the outside world. Say, and even now for the past three years. Okay, maybe the supplied of gas from Myanmar through the pipeline would become more difficult or precarious where you can you never know that part of the civil war might lead to the destruction of the gas pipeline. Is it a possibility? In that sense, I think looking back two or three years backwards, then the Thai government through the Ministry of Energy and petroleum Authority of Thailand should have already discussed about alternative sources or to do the adverse side of a forward purchase advance purchase and all of this or even to negotiate directly with Qatar or UAE abroad night and so on. For some sort of a special arrangement, they should have done that. If they have not done that, then they have failed in that do this, especially the Ministry of Energy. The Ministry of Industry that controls I think the petroleum Authority of Thailand. At the same time, we could increase more of the hydroelectric power. By investing more in Laos, the battery of Asia, Pacific region. So one has to look at all around, and the government has a duty to put this on the table for the Thai public, but to say that we cannot do anything with the TAT Bandar, because they will cross the gas pipeline, then we are being called to be being black bear by the tag Manda. To me, I would suit us the bath language and to hell with it. We might suffer for the first two or three months and so on. But we can increase the coal import from Australia or Indonesia, we can have the LNG and so on from the Middle East, or even now from California and so on. But we should not be blackmailed by the taxman because of the guest, we are a sovereign and independent country. And we have enough people with brain to find the alternative, to find the secondary sources and so on, and to be able to, I think, bridge, the lack of gas from Myanmar, and then you sauces and so on, we can ask the whole type people to use less electricity to drive less of the motor, we pickles and so on. So I cannot accept the notion that we have to be nice to tatmadaw because of the gas pipeline, that's acceptable, and that needs the political vision and leadership and the crux of the determination. And if my Prime Minister, my minister of energy, my minister of foreign affairs and industry and so on, do not have that, then that should not be in the position, they should resign from their position and go home and play with their grandchildren. Thank you.
Brad 1:17:13
Absolutely. And I, I really respect the sort of steadfastness that you have and the dedication to the moral right, even if it costs economically, even if it costs a little bit of comfort. You know, the nation still has to act, ethically, and morally. And that connects, I think, to my final question, which regards the very last thing that you write in your article, you say, the main goal for Thailand should be to immediately bring an end to the fighting, rebuild the country and focus on a return to democracy under a federally democratic Myanmar. And I know that you've spoken about this in this interview and in other interviews, but I wonder if you can, sort of, in a condensed form tell us Do you have a vision for how Thailand can help achieve that? Okay.
Kasit Piromya 1:18:04
I think lately, the ASEAN leadership has come out with another idea and body that is the tripartite arrangement to be I think, comprised of the Korean foreign minister of the country that is in the chair, namely the foreign minister of Laos. Then the other two members of the tripartite thing is the foreign minister of Indonesia as the former chair of ASEAN last year, and the next chair of ASEAN, which is Malaysia. So the Laotian Foreign Minister, the Malaysian and Indonesian at the moment constitute the tripartite arrangement, okay to push ASEAN activities forward, and especially to push the five point consensus forward okay. Because before that ASEAN used to come out with the ASEAN Special Envoy for Myanmar affairs to be appointed by whoever is in the chair, but it is not been working and the stature of that particular special envoy is not. So I think conducive, in terms of the I think the power and the influence, the personality, charismatic things and so on. So now they come up with this tripartite arrangement. And Thailand as the most affected country of the of the Myanmar's can then speak to the three foreign minister and work together to realize the fight by consensus and the first thing that is needed is the ceasefire. Stop the fighting now, as seen as a whole through the tripartite arrangement, tell the tatmadaw that we will, we can do anything suspend Myanmar leadership, we will sanction you You know, we don't pay, Thailand can stop paying for the gas and put it the payment into the escrow account. Until we admire return to democracy and so on, then we will have all of our banking relationship and all of the so many things that I think ASEAN collectively tend to do tatmadaw That you got to do the ceasefire, otherwise, you will get 12345 countermeasures and sanctions and so on with you, you know, the whole gamut of the relationship. And we will not welcome your military leaders to our countries, including their children, and their wives, and so on. So that's what we can do to put the message across in a clear cut manner to add Myanmar military authority that in the fighting now, and we will organize the peace negotiation in Kuala Lumpur or in Singapore, in Bangkok, and so on, under the auspices of the tripartite arrangement, and so on. So that can be done immediately. And we will speak to the Indians and to the Chinese and so on. Don't do things separately with Myanmar military authorities, but do together in order to stop the fighting and start the peace negotiations. And ASEAN is in the position to speak to both the Chinese and the Indians. At the same time, the ASEAN can speak to the potential donors like Australia, Japan, South Korea, Canada, United States, 27 members of the European Union and the United Kingdom. So I don't think money is a problem. You know, to help the reconstruction of Myanmar, we ASEAN can also tell the world and attack mandore, that once the ceasefire happens, then we can invite the UN interim administration to oversee the peacekeeping to prepare Myanmar for the eventual return to democracy. So many things that ASEAN can do together and try Foreign Minister, if he has the determination to do something in a positive manner, he can do what I have just mentioned. There will be a lot of senior official in the Foreign Office and everywhere, too heavy thing and charter the costs for Thailand to work together with the other ASEAN leadership.
Brad 1:22:54
Excellent. I mean, I don't know whether this plan will ever be implemented. But I very much hope that somebody in the administration is listening and taking notes
Kasit Piromya 1:23:03
non Myanmar friends, every one of you, you have to go and tell your government officials, your MPs, the good things that I have been trying to convey to all of you second to work with your respective NGOs and so on to do about networking and ring pressure on the tatmadaw I think we can do that. And to all my Myanmar friends, I think you have to be encouraged. Now, by your own efforts, congratulations, that you have denied the outright victory of the TAT mandore they have failed in the coup d'etat they are on the I think defensive side. So all the Myanmar opposition forces you have to be more cohesive, more coordinated. And thing a new and so on. And of course, I like the idea of a democratic federal Myanmar and there must be an end to the Birman nice session of Myanmar by the Berman's in every sense of the word. I think my fellow Berman Myanmar friends, please do realize that one ethnic entity cannot dominate the rest. It has to be able to find the way to live with other ethnic groups and so on. I think that should be the key, no more of Berman supremacy or even with this Thai supremacy in Thailand that that it cannot go on I think each of our society and I think in Myanmar much more yeah much more diverse in terms of ethnics in terms of race, in terms of religious belief and diversity even in I think in the topography of the country and all of this and so on. So accept that diversity and leave it try to live it together without any one dominating the other but to be able To speak to one another as equal and in a very civilized and visual respect for one another, thank you.
Host 1:25:21
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