Transcript: Episode #160: U Gambira

Here is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript has been generated using an AI transcription service and has not undergone human review. As a result, certain words in the text may not accurately reflect the words. This is especially noticeable for speakers with pronounced accents, as the AI may struggle with interpretation and transcription accuracy. Therefore, it's advised not to reference this transcript in any article or document without cross-referencing the timestamps to verify the precise words spoken by the guest.

 

00:00

It started as a protest over fuel subsidies, it became a popular uprising against the generals and their policy of oppression. Throughout Myanmar, hundreds of 1000s of people took to the streets falling for freedom and democracy. Such gatherings hadn't been seen here for nearly 20 years. The focal point was the former capsule Yangon. At one stage 100,000 people demonstrated here and their leaders with amongst men of peace

 

Host  00:44

many longtime listeners know that our podcast platform was initially focused on interviews about the many spiritual paths that Myanmar offers meditators and monastics. But when the coup hit, we couldn't in good conscience continue to tell those stories, with many monastic sites on fire are occupied by soldiers and the Burmese people living under the military's Reign of Terror. So we expanded our mission to cover a wider range of post coup Myanmar stories. Still, some guests have a unique insight into both the intersection of the spiritual with the worldly, allowing a deeper understanding of both planes. Today's guest squarely fits in that category as you will soon hear, let's get to that interview now.

 

01:50

He he ate my way that are they gonna have a good day. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and this is it.

 

Host  02:25

For this episode of insight, Myanmar podcast, we're joined by Gambia, who was one of the monks who led the Saffron Revolution in 2007. And we're going to learn a bit about his role in that and more about that protest period in Myanmar history as well as his own life story before and after. So who can bear thanks so much for taking the time to join us and chat today?

 

U Gambira  02:50

Yes, yes. It's okay. Yeah.

 

Host  02:54

Right. So I know a bit about your biography. And I know that your early childhood played a big role in what would happen later when you were a monk during 2007. So let's start at the beginning. Can you tell us about where you're from in Myanmar and your early childhood years? And some of the important things that happened in your childhood?

 

U Gambira  03:18

No. Okay. My child who I was one and pout on shit about don't she is neat. midriff alma mater, Obama. Central Obama. McQuaid. divisia Bakugou districts? Yeah. Hold on shit. I was worrying about OSHA. Yeah. And then I turned that class title class Yeah, visit education as primary school and I began a Thai soldier Yeah, I'd be getting a title Yeah, yes.

 

Host  03:56

Tell us about that experience. How did you become a child soldier where you take in and how long did you spend and as far as you're comfortable sharing what happened in those years?

 

U Gambira  04:07

Oh a ball boat trying to adapt time I was great sit at the school and in my house, my father he agreed on me and that he beat me he beat me his school me so I I am very upset and I angry I and so I I'm going to do the Switch switch outcome Yeah. And then the the they bring me to the chainsaw job got Yeah, so job done. So job training done. Yeah. So

 

Host  04:53

you you were you take in or kidnapped by the military or did you run away from your family to join

 

U Gambira  05:00

Yeah, I run away from my family. Yeah, I know from my family. And I went to the military. Yeah.

 

Host  05:07

So you ran away from your family when you were in sixth grade, and you joined the Tomodachi. Basically,

 

U Gambira  05:11

yeah. Yeah. At that time, I was not doing Yes. Oh, yeah. So tell us about that experience. Yeah. And I became a Thai soldier. Yeah. 1992 Yeah. 1992 Yeah. And I I got I got the trainee soldier trainee, shooting the can drive her, etc. And I, I was at the soldier training camp. And I don't like the punishment. Spy. So I ran away from the poundage soldier training camp. And I became a novice. Yeah.

 

Host  05:56

And how many years? Were you a child soldier?

 

U Gambira  05:59

About 15? Months? No, yeah. months,

 

Host  06:04

six months? And did you were you only in training or did you also see combat

 

U Gambira  06:08

training is about Pullman. Yeah. Before training, I was in the can call it news ejaculating camp. Yeah, about two months. And they sent me to this soldier training gun format to Delhi sickness. Yeah.

 

Host  06:25

And were you with you were being trained only with other children, or were you being trained with adults as well?

 

U Gambira  06:31

All the time? Yeah, I was trying. Yeah. About the rifles. And about the Friday. Turkey. Yeah.

 

Host  06:44

And the the other the other people you were with as you were being trained? Were they were they children? Or were they adults? You were training with

 

U Gambira  06:52

odd? Totally, totally 250 soldier training. So new Sojat. train us 250 and 256 soldiers, new soldiers. Party soldiers. For the post zero all the soldiers are the chancel jazz,

 

Host  07:20

I say. Right. So then after six months, you ran away this time from the military. And you ran into a monastery to become a monk. So tell us about that experience? Oh, yeah.

 

U Gambira  07:32

I went to the I run away from the soldier training and I hiked in bullets near Bakugou. Yeah, Yakubu, dontcha, and I went to the I went to the I want to know because no Mac No, but not with me. Small Mac. Yeah, I want to be Knoppix. So I asked my mother. My mother is my mother was living in the bow. Bow Township. Yeah. So my mother came to me visit to me. And she said, Yes. She said, Yes. So I became a Norwex and Makoku.

 

Host  08:16

Right. So tell us a bit about your novice years. How long were you there? And what did you do?

 

U Gambira  08:20

I was novice and 13 years old to 1014 1516 years old. 15 years old. Yeah. And my my brother told me, please, disrobe because we are busy in the house. Who hurt us in the house? So I just wrote? Yeah, I just wrote it. 10 years Oh, and became a novice again. And I became a monk in 20 years. Oh, yeah.

 

Host  09:00

And how was your experience being a novice? What what did you do during your days as a novice

 

U Gambira  09:05

I learned the teaching is or the builder. Every day, I learn the teachings of the Buddha every day, every day and I meditate and I chant. Yeah. Yeah. And I learned about loving kindness, metta. And I learned about meditation.

 

Host  09:26

And Makoku is a famous place in Myanmar for Buddhist scholarship. This is there are many monasteries that are very famous for the for for monks who are very knowledgeable in the scriptures. Is that right?

 

U Gambira  09:39

Yeah, is right. Yeah. Probably is very famous. Don't yet yeah, about the monks.

 

Host  09:44

So did you the par Yachty the, the learning that you did as a monk and studying did you have access to very qualified and very famous teachers because you were in pakokku?

 

U Gambira  09:57

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I like Learning the teachings of Buddha.

 

Host  10:04

And you say you also practice meditation. What? Was there a certain lineage of meditation you practice like Mahasi or su lune or Mohawk or, or these other teachers? What style of meditation Did you practice?

 

U Gambira  10:16

I'm teaching I'm learning that meditation. It was no Maha car mogul. It is the teachings of Buddha teachings of Buddha the book. Yeah, the books and I learned after that, I've tried that Anna moko we both know meditation and I learned about Mahasi we both know meditation Yeah, to to meditation method.

 

Host  10:46

So So you practice to meditation methods mocha Mahasi. Basically yeah, mogul and Martha Yeah. And you also practice metta and this is an important part of your story for what would happen later in how you use meta but tell us about how you practice meta, how you learned meta and how you understood meta as a novice when you were first studying this. Oh,

 

U Gambira  11:07

yeah. Mid mid Brahma Brahma Vihara muda Brahma Vihara it is including in the teachings of Buddha. Yeah. So I we learn about metta, we learn about Brahma Vihara metta Guna, Merida, Ubercart. Yeah, metta? Dharma and Bs. Yeah. So we learned about Muda. So we don't need to learn separately, if we learn the teachings of Buddha, we, we already learned, metta.

 

Host  11:45

Right. And so of, of all these different parts of your monastic experience, you know, learning meta, learning the scriptures, practicing meditation, going on alms rounds, learning, just being following the discipline of the monastic life as you were a novice, and in these years before you went back to your family, what what part of being a novice Did you like the most?

 

U Gambira  12:10

Yeah. I like the novel hooks. Yeah, I know. I like the novel hooks. Yeah. Because of anger, meditate. Every day. I can chant every day. And then I don't need to complicate it. I don't need to choose about the family life. Yes. So I like another hoax. Yeah.

 

Host  12:36

What did you like about chanting?

 

U Gambira  12:38

Chanting made me peaceful. Yeah, chanting I chant a pause so dots and chant the Samsel dots every day. And what was your favorite tutor? My favorite is all that is? midday. So does your nostril does Mengele? So does three sodas, main glass holder. Metta soda,

 

Host  13:00

and why do you like these? Why are these your favorite because

 

U Gambira  13:04

Mengele soda is show teach hit a Minnesota torch as the about how to live. How to live with the people. How to live with the friends how to live with the Nivas cool life as a whole life. Yeah. Yeah. And how to how to meditate how to home to sharing love and kindness. So I like that hope that also does.

 

Host  13:43

So you saw this is like a practical guide of how to how to live in the world.

 

U Gambira  13:47

Yeah, yeah, I got the angle the brightness. Yeah. My my teacher Max my mother month. Dada. He taught me a lot every day every night.

 

Host  14:03

Right? Well, that's that's that's wonderful. Um, can you can you chant for one minute? Can you can you choose one suitor or one part of the SUTA which you you really like and is a sutra used to chant very often and can you can you chant for us for just a minute?

 

U Gambira  14:19

Yeah, I'm gonna chant Yeah. Okay. Ronnie mattock, with me now yanda Vida Mytho the Goku so the who's who's not the money? I know that goes to girls about Bezos or Donahoe got eau de nada years or never goes about Gabor bulid or nanotrader NASA again see in our new brave about what are you looking okay um, you know, and that double wound to kita.

 

Host  14:57

Thank you can can you tell us the meaning of that

 

U Gambira  14:59

ah, meaning the meaning is all entire universe or the other people or the other people entire in the entire universe. They become free from the May they free from Safari, may they free from meant Safari, physical Safari made the take care of dansette. Yeah.

 

Host  15:44

Great. Thank you for that. And so picking back on your story, we, you would talked about how you were a novice for a couple of years. But then you had to disrobe and go and help your family because they were in hardship. And then you decided to become a full Bhiku a full monk, when you were 20 which is 20 years is the the earliest age that one can become a monk before that one is a novice. So why did you decide to go back into the Sangha and become a full Bhiku when you were 20?

 

U Gambira  16:13

Because I, I like Mahieu I like my home. I surely I did I want to I didn't want to disrupt my brother, my oldest, my older brother. He requests me to disrobe. So I just throw at the last 15 years or so. But even I just felt I wanted to began as a novice and a monk again. So 16 years old, 17 years. So in year two, I was a live Lee. Yeah, man. And then it didn't Yes. Oh, I became a novice again. Because I like Navajo. I like my whole novel. It's hooked a man who's made me beautiful life. Yeah, so I choose the Navajos, monkey hooks.

 

Host  17:10

Right, thanks. Thanks for that and backing up a little bit. In 1988. And in the protests and democracy movement in 1988, you would have been just I think eight years old or so. Do you remember anything from what was happening in 1988? When you were a child? Were you aware of what was happening?

 

U Gambira  17:30

Oh, yeah, at that time. At that time, I was a test. I was a chai. And then my parents, my parents, my father is the lead us or that Township. He is the product leader. And that my mother also the brothers and my father Frisch the my father speech among the be bad. And then we might see I was a chai, but I also Aki into the mochi. Yeah. Even I was a chai. Yeah, I didn't know. The day. I didn't know. I didn't know a lot about the bullet at that time. But I want to cooperate with them. Yeah, I like them. And I will I like cooperate with them. So I working with them. And then my mother cooked money, foods. Money food for the broader star. Citizen, sit, sit down protests on the road. Many people don't get money be better on the road. They are sitting tall. So my mother, she her friends. Her mom boss, they got a lot of schools. And then we we we mean me my my brothers and sisters. My Nivas childhoods or children's, my Neva children's. We bring the food. And then we give the citizen the broad data to Tableau data we gave them we gave the food to the sit down protester on that roads. Yeah, every day at that time.

 

Host  19:26

That's that's quite something to hear. Because knowing where knowing that, in just a couple of decades, you would become one of the leaders of the Saffron Revolution, which was one of the most significant protest movements in Myanmar in recent Myanmar history. And you're describing as an eight year old that your parents are basically democracy leaders in your rural community. And your mom is cooking for all these. These protesters who are sitting and standing on the street Your dad is making speeches. And as an eight year old, you're going and delivering As food to the to the people that are standing against the military in 1988. So, as a child, how did you understand this? Did you have any real understanding of what they were protesting for or what they were unhappy with? Or what they were trying to achieve? Did what was your understanding of the movement at the time?

 

U Gambira  20:18

I? I didn't know understand very deeply. I did not understand a lot, but I understand a little bit, because at that time, I was a child. Yeah, I was about nine years old, a year who are nine years old. Yeah. So I didn't understand Diddy and do not understand deeply. But I understand about the protests, the Bieber, why do people protest to the government? Yeah. Because the government made the money mistake. So the Biba. Protests to the government every day. So I I learn about the bullet. A little bit in my channel. Yeah, not a lot.

 

Host  21:12

And I have to ask, you know, it seems kind of ironic that you came from a family that was very anti military, anti government, and which was a military government at the time and pro democracy. And yet, some years later, you would leave your family and actually join the military that your family was protesting? Was, was that a hard decision for you to join this organization that your family had been against your whole childhood?

 

U Gambira  21:39

Oh, no. 15? Yeah. So at that time, at that time, 20 years old, 12 years old, right, right. 12 years? That didn't, yeah, so yeah. Yeah, at that time, China Houttuynia. And not in Asia. Even not in Asia. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Host  21:53

Right. But what I'm saying is you when you were 12 years old, you you basically join the enemy. You You left your family. Yeah. And you join the group that your family was against. So was that a hard decision? Yeah, yeah,

 

U Gambira  22:05

I know that. I Yeah. I wanted to the enemy. Yes. Yeah. Is my family's enemy might be an enemy. Yeah. But I had no choice at the time. I had no choice at the time. I didn't know. I could not go to my religious houses. Because if I go to, if I went to my religious houses, my father, my father would dig me into the, into our house again. And then he went BMP me. So I had no choice. So I continued to the soldier training camp.

 

Host  22:52

Right, I see. Okay, so let's get back on your journey. And so then you, you become a Bhiku, a former monk. And tell us a bit about your life once you became a Bhiku and where you were, what you were doing, what your daily life was like, then

 

U Gambira  23:08

I became a novice at 18 years old, novice, and then two years and after two years 20 So I begins a Mac. Yeah. And thinks it didn't. Yes, oh, I novice who I learned of all the teachings of Buddha. And I want to the I saw them on to say that examination, Monk examination, even since since 18 years old, 18 years old ideas over here and Yangon, other tiny angle. And then 20 years, in 20 years, oh, I became a Mac. Yeah, I learned. I learned the teachings of Buddha continues continuously. Gandhi, so 21 years old. 22 years old. Yeah.

 

Host  24:09

Right. And this is sometime before 2007. I mean, 2007 was the really big year that a lot of things happen. But before we get into 2007, before we talk about this time, which was so significant, tell us a bit more just about what you were doing as a monk, how you were, where where you were living, how you were spending your days, what you were focusing on and just just the the monk's life

 

U Gambira  24:33

No, yeah. Oh, it didn't. Yes. Oh, no, the hooks. I was living in your nabina monastery in Lego Township. Yengo. Yeah, I learned the teachings of Buddha. It didn't Yes. Oh, no, the hooks. And I didn't Yes. Oh, same monastery, another in a monastery. We call it managing monastery, right? Yeah, Lego don't get younger. And then 20 years so I became a monk in the Vietnam payment monastery. Yeah. And then 21 years Oh, I chain another monetary die monastery is insane. Your mom on the street? Yeah. Nowadays the monastery is very famous monastery per famously a both of whom I want to see inside your monastery. Yes. Maha monastery. Yeah, I tend to them in single monastery 21 years old. And that 22 years so I tend to the Mahabodhi monastery, era division Mugen Township and then 23 years so I changed to the sugu monastery in Chicago, a guy and that the monastery is my childhood monastery. Childhood no novice monastery again in macoco. Yeah, and Gandhi for years studying I start working in the underground boiler did walking

 

Host  26:21

How did you get involved in that what what exactly were you doing underground and what led to your initial involvement

 

U Gambira  26:27

other time? I turned to the Yangon aka in to Tom's flew from Chicago provocar Gu. Yangon, I changed to the Yangon Olga and my oldest brother was underground, Lucha Underground Bala did Lita so he requests me to her hand. So I my oldest brother name is on Jojo. He asked me to hurt him. Please help me about our underground working. So I heard that. They they make the median secret median mi monasteries. Yeah, they hide the toggle monks books BCD CD and etc. They hide in my monastery. So yeah, I heard her. I heard that a lot. And then my brother said, Please can you began then you began to ug member? Underground member? I said yes. And that I I visit to Mexico. I visit to Mexico and I attend the Underground. Underground organization was shocked. Yeah. And I became I became I became an underground member, too. Don't info. John.

 

Host  28:15

And what kinds of things were you learning in those trainings?

 

U Gambira  28:18

Oh, it is. Grown wash your these are political defiance? What are they gonna define as the OD BD DOD? bordiga. Defense is it? It is the DoD jinsha you no doubt agencia? I don't know. Yeah. jinsha jinsha is very famous. He, he wrote about non violence. He wrote about Lanza, and I said that, yeah, we call it Ebola to get defined as method theory. Yeah, but you get different theories. Surely it is a Gandhi Mahatma Gandhi's MEDEX. He's a truce and other Ha, yeah. And then Dada jinsha wrote about a nonviolent method. Yeah, it's called political defense, DOD. Yeah, we learn about political defense DOD, bd, bd, DOD. And then I see Oh, DOD, co CEOs, community organization. What's your leadership? What's your human rights? What's your Yeah, and I learned that in myself,

 

Host  29:27

and were there many other monks who were in this training and other monks who were part of the underground

 

U Gambira  29:32

know at that time, no money, no money other monks, other Thai? monks were just only me. Yeah. And that's how others are Lehman's lumens, Lehman's and lumens at the time, just only one man and mess up. Me. Just only me. Yeah. And the mess how leaders yeah Mr. Leader Coleman I come in I MSR he's a leader. He's a he said can you organize the month and Max insight Bama? And again you found the monk organization and our grown monk organization and Agron organizations inside Obama. He asked me I think deeply about that. And I finally I said yes. I said yes. So he come in I mean, he already die. A ball he died already about six years already. He passed away. Come in i He He Sabo, me a lot. Come in, I got your Tet or Jota Enckelman I gave me Tony me a lot of money to pound the underground monks, underground Nan's organizations and site Bama. Yeah.

 

Host  31:11

Right. So this is a huge task. I mean, you are the only monk who was a member of growing resistance movement. Yeah, actually, I wouldn't even say growing because we're talking 2004 So 2004 The military is in full control. They are fighting the ethnic areas. I believe Aung San su chi is still under house arrest at this time. And

 

U Gambira  31:33

yeah, he if he wants a house arrest

 

Host  31:35

Yeah, right. There's no real even glimmer of hope. It's a very tight police authoritarian state at the time. And you within this environment you're taking on this courageous and very dangerous mission of trying to organize resistance among the monastic network to be able to support for human rights and democracy. So how did in you're alone in doing this? I mean, you're the only monk who is is a member of these underground groups. So how did you even start to begin recruiting secretly, carefully cautiously? How did you even start the process of recruiting monks and nuns to join your your new underground movement?

 

U Gambira  32:19

Yeah, it is very difficult for me. Yeah. Yes, exactly. It's very very difficult for me at the time in Bama yet. Some friends of mine they interesting already. They already interesting about Bala did the monks, the nuns, sometimes all my monks and nuns? Yeah, they are my classmates. They are my classmate. Yeah, they already interesting about politics, but they don't know about underground working. So, I met that I met that and I explained them about underground organizations. And I as I told that, we were formed underground, monks and monks organization since Obama. They agree. They agree me they agree with me. They agree with me. So we found the wrong man and organizations and Siva, yeah.

 

Host  33:27

This is called the The all Burma monks Association. I think the the the group that you set up

 

U Gambira  33:33

Yeah. And at first is it was not Obama, monks and nuns unions organization. Other tie at first. A small group. Yeah, it was small group. Gym monks. Union Django, gym monks. Yeah, man, German union, motherly, German Unia Baku like that. And a sangha Tada Sangha Sangha to the organization, Yangon Sangha to the organization Mandalay Sangha to the organization Bakugou Sangha to the organization no job at all as I try to lay that small small small small groups Yeah.

 

Host  34:18

So how fast was this growing because you're going from one month is in the resistance to one month and his friends and then one month and his friends and their friends the friends yeah, and it starts growing so what this is 2004 when you're starting so we're still three years away from the saffron revolution taking place Yes. What was the growth rate of of your activity in recruiting new members?

 

U Gambira  34:40

Ah, yeah. I I'm good. I think was fun. Money. A lot. From my tuna hoomin I from SR. Come in. I go Jota they Cebu me a lot. So I I could go to the trouble for organizing for organization. Yeah. A lot a lot or Obama. So I want to the I want to townships, cities, no. Village. And I, I organized that. Yeah, I organized that they like it. They like my organization organized. They liked my discussion. So we begin the small, small, small micro, small, small non group and are gronckle yet we begin

 

Host  35:44

what numbers do you think we're talking about, like after 2005 2006? How many members would you say you had?

 

U Gambira  35:50

Oh, 2005, two down at that time about 700 niandra. Yeah.

 

Host  35:59

And, and when you were then recruiting them into this organization, what kinds of activities were you doing once they joined

 

U Gambira  36:08

all we and then I've taught them member and our grown Max and then number members. I, I brought IBM to, I'm bringing them to Mesa, and then they learn about the political definer theory. They learn about your DoD Dylan about human rights, DOD. They learn about leadership training. Yeah. And we make the activities. We made the homeless John John X magazine, and that wrong man, John and Agron next magazine. Yeah, I know we. We publish secretly? Yeah. Yeah. from Yangon, Mandalay. jobra Bakugou, etc. Yeah, like that.

 

Host  37:08

Are there any other activities you're doing? Yeah.

 

U Gambira  37:12

Another activity is we make we made a sticker box stickers and posters. For example, we don't like dictatorship. Yeah, I like I don't like dictatorship. Yeah. And we, we, we stick the sticker on the bowl. On the road. Yeah. And then on the Oh, yeah. And then starts to get our shit like that. The stickers we put the sticker and then we we make the underground magazine underground channels and we make the free CD CD. Yeah. Underground. seedy, underground VTT, we publish we distribute and publish

 

Host  38:08

what is on the CD or the CDs are

 

U Gambira  38:13

the which CD about the about the Netherlands movement. When countries about for example about Chile, India, Chile, India bulan Chile India bola or salvias like that like that? We it that movies on DVD, do do Democritus Weiss, Obama, they, they they they show the the television. So we took we took it? We took two with Ed from NASA. About Chile. about India, India, Candy about salvias, Audible, about more than Yeah, like that. So and then we make the copy copy a lot was copied Monday, Monday, Gaby PCD. Yeah. And then we distribute about that. We Oh, we just did do the BCD. On one the monks and nuns. Groups, or Obama? Yeah.

 

Host  39:40

Right. Is there at this point, this is still before the Saffron Revolution. And yeah, this is obviously very dangerous. But is there were Were there moments where monks and nuns who were involved in this activity, did the authorities and the military Learn what, what was happening a little bit. Did they start to arrest people or harm people? Or how knowledgeable were they of what you were doing in these years? And how much were they cracking down and arresting people?

 

U Gambira  40:11

Yeah. At first, we don't know, the monks and the nuns. We don't know about how to make the products how to make the strikes. Yeah. And I know, we don't know about Lampang lungs movement. What is going on? Like movement? What is founder right? What is now right? Movement? Yeah, we don't know. We didn't, we didn't know about that detail. But after that, after the attorney in the political defiance theory, the monks and nuns already know about Nanfang lungs movement or Nanfang NUMA is very good. We and mankind monks and nuns, we can do them now. They know that he did. So we like Nanfang next movement. So we try. We we write we wrote on the newspaper, underground newspaper, and our ground journey. Underground magazine. About now vonleh movement Yeah, Nirvana Mama is NOT. NOT against with the teachings of Buddha. We can do now. non violence movement. And now we just review. We published the underground jhana magazines. So many people are many monks and nuns know about knowing about nine mandalas Yeah, so they like Nirvana and and they checked the images Hilda every every blue moon day, every month? Yeah. The the color together. They make together. Secret Meeting. They make the secret media under them. Chanda Midata. Together. Yeah. And the discussion about nonviolent movement. Yeah. Or Obama. Yeah. Member Yeah.

 

Host  42:36

So you're you're connecting democracy and human rights and non nonviolent protest with Buddhism and with the teachings of the Buddha and you're making a connection between these two concepts.

 

U Gambira  42:47

Yeah, both the teachings of Buddha with Nirvana lumen Polityka define a theory. They are very Ganesh chin together. Yes, because Buddha, Buddha don't like Berlin, Poland. Yeah, Bala Bala Dona Bangla in the ditch. He saw a nonviolent movement method. We can do the Navajo land. Activities. Yeah, yes. Teaching. It's like the teachings of Buddha. So we like the nonviolent movements. Yeah.

 

Host  43:31

Right. And so then as you're doing all of this work, the military know what you're doing before 2007. Are they are they arresting members of your network? Or are you still in secrecy?

 

U Gambira  43:44

No. Before 2007? Nobody, my underground monks and nuns. Nobody were arrested. Nobody were arrested. Yeah, because we made the very secretly meetings. Yeah. And then we didn't meet each other a lot. For example, from Mandalay monks to Yangon month, they don't meet each other because I've got anchored anchored aka anchor dot mon manly monk, underground crew and young monk underground group and you know, together with them, because if a young monk grew if jungle man grew arrested, we will be arrested manly men who grew also where we rested. So and I know that so I cut off beyond that. I don't want that what manly group Yangon guru. I don't want to deal with Motley Crue and Bakugou crew. I don't want to deal with the manly Guru, Guru and lighter and get cut, cut cut with them.

 

Host  45:11

So you're the only one who knows all the networks and everyone involved.

 

U Gambira  45:16

Not just me. Seven months, me and another six months. Yeah, we seven. No all of them. Yeah.

 

Host  45:28

I'm thinking about the Myanmar democracy movement, you know, going from May when had the coup in 1962. Of course, in 1974 with Bhutan's body there was another protest and then ADA is the famous one. And I'm thinking back on these protest movements and wondering about the involvement of monks and nuns, I don't recall off the top of my head. How many monks and nuns are really involved? I do remember pictures from 1988 have seen that there were monks who came on the street but I don't know about actual monastic leaders who were doing something

 

U Gambira  46:04

No, no, no, no, no. I'm not the first leader. I'm not the first leader against the military in Bama the 9090 9080 9090 or you will die Malinda although DECA Yeah, the very famous. Yeah. And also as well, yeah, the way you would already die. He passed away. Yeah. After he released from prison. After three months. He released from prison after three months he died. Yeah, we will die. Yeah, he is very famous. Brought blood test leader man. Yeah.

 

Host  46:52

Right. I see. Okay, so I think we're now at a place where we can understand the events leading up to 2007. So prior to 2007 You're doing a lot of underground activity. You're doing trainings and distributing information and learning nonviolent tactics. You're publishing newsletters and CDs, all this activity, but you're not this is a very small group of underground monks that and nuns that the military doesn't know about. But then everything changes in 2007 and you become not just nationally famous but internationally famous for the role and the leadership that you would took on so tell us what happened in 2007 that set in motion the events that we now call the Saffron Revolution.

 

U Gambira  47:40

Oh yeah. Oh. In the month we the monks and the nuns already tried to make the revolution make a revolution that we didn't have Spark Spark Spark to be to make a revolution. We need Spark Spark Yeah, we did not find that spark. So we just Lani and then we just median and now we just underground meter underground. John sanding each other underground John s and then each other underground with EG city seacocks like that. Yeah. We spent the time at the time to download and set up to donate $5 Zip yet and Alia to donate seven. Yeah, the Yamaha Polityka situation began. A lot of it. Move Move, move. Move move north stability at a time. Yeah. Some bullet to get a Davis for example, the famous but bordiga Davis, his name good angel, and then only one on that. Yeah, they made that strikes on the road. Yeah. So let me move forward. He gets the durations and Bama. So we we know that so and the donor survey oh guys. 2007 August. The military government in Bama. Are they at this price? A ball. But true. Yeah, but through the app. A lot. A lot of us bribe. Price about virtual. So man. Money be bad are very difficult to live life To live in Bama very difficult. So, strikes, small strike became IBAMA in Yangon. Small strike a manly small strike. Yeah. And that but the military government arrest and arrest that arrest them so strike finish the strikes are finished the protests are finished. So at the time are we we saw that ah it is Spock Yeah, we thought that this is spot we have to do the big the big protests the best revolution the best strikes we should do that the month we discussed each other about that. And to don the server sit down by five sit down to Donald said serve as a demo 5/5 September 2007 In Bakugou, the monk pakokku Underground monk they marching on the road. Yeah, they marching on the road, the man crew they marching on the road and under military and the bullies. There's armies and bullies, they arrest the army sample is rather Max and then they hit the max they get the monk. Yeah, they beat the man with the rifle. Yeah. So it is spark for x. So we try to be the botanicals gamma. All around Obama and all around the all around the world. About the botanicals. Nagamma

 

Host  52:10

were you involved with the pakokku monks who decided to take to the streets?

 

U Gambira  52:15

Oh, yeah, I contact with them because the monks before before September, August, I encounter with them with the Pope at the time. We don't have good internet. IBAMA. Just phone phone line, we use the Pope. So I'm gonna go with and with the phone. Yeah. And then they agree with me. They were they were marching. They were much. And then the mighty. And then the was beaten. Yeah.

 

Host  52:46

Yeah. I mean, this is such an act of courageous non violence. I mean, this, this does remind me of things. You hear about the marches that Gandhi would lead, where you're not you're you're going out into the street, and you're not going to harm anyone else. And yet, you know, that very serious harm could come to you. This takes tremendous courage to be able to go through it.

 

U Gambira  53:10

Yes, yes. Yes. It is not only movement in Makoku. Yeah. The they don't have the stick. They don't have the knife the month, the month. Crew, they they marching, they don't have stick. They don't have knife. They don't hurt the loved ones. Yeah. They don't have any been just marching, marching. Yes. Marching.

 

Host  53:34

What were they doing when they were marching? Did they have signs with a chanting? Were they speaking?

 

U Gambira  53:39

Yeah, they had they had sign yet. They had sign they had sign too. We want to we want to be low price or the we want to be low price or the petro that the sluka the size, the size, we want to be low price of the petrol. Yeah. And then they chant about Midata.

 

Host  54:09

They were also chanting metta SUTA. Yeah. And so then after they get they get harassed or assaulted, beaten up by the military, then you decide to, instead of walking away and trying to hide, you decide to go the other way you decide to come out of the dark come out of hiding out of secrecy, and to show your faces and speak your message and really try as you've said, in this interview, be the spark. So tell us about what happened next after Makoku

 

U Gambira  54:39

Oh, yeah, it was cool. Yeah. Three months, three months. were lifted. From the man crew. Yeah, product rules. Man product crews found a member of the cruise, three months were arrested. Other months were released. Yeah, three months where began kick and arrested. So we we decide to make the button has now come up. Yeah but on the other time I was a young girl and I certainly want to I try that to Natalie Quigley one night yeah. Because I have to do the bid meeting. Yeah, they meet again in Mandalay about the protests. So, we decide in the median Ababa Coco Mac we decide we decide to do to the botanicals Nakama to the military government in Bama Yeah. And tell us what that means. But unlike was not gamma is according to teachings of Buddha. Yeah. It's Sam Lim if one day man somebody Lima, Lima, P, or cake or school, school, school or swear to swear to the Mac, yeah. So, we have to the monks, the man has to, the monks have to banish man made the banishment to their, to their to the do the Lima, Lima eco botanical Nakama.

 

Host  56:38

That's where they turn the ALMS bowl upside down and refuse to accept arms which give merit to the donor. Is that right? Yeah. Right. So you you called on monks to turn their ALMS bowl upside down and not accept money from the military. Is that correct? Yeah. And how did that go?

 

U Gambira  56:55

Yeah, we may. We, I know we. We announced the we announced the steel man. We you know, the statement from the media. Yeah, really? You other time. We may only be listening to the radio every day every night in Bama. Yeah, we don't have good internet at that time in 2007. So we made a million IBAMA. And we made the median manually. And then we call it we found the all Bama monk. Unions Alliance. Yeah. Yeah. We found the Obama Max union Alliance. And we announced Yeah, we we against the military government. We were made the we were made, but only because now come up. If military government. We're not. We're not a military government would not apologize to them. Peter monk. Yeah, we don't like that. Yeah.

 

Host  58:10

And I know for some many Burmese Buddhists that I've talked to have said that they they never thought that they would ever live to see a day where the military would beat a monk. They just they couldn't imagine that taking place. Did that surprise you that these monks and Makoku were beaten by the military? Or did that not surprise you?

 

U Gambira  58:31

Yeah. It's a surprise for me. Yeah. I'm very surprised about that. Yeah. Ah, I do not know. The military government. The army that bullies. They, they will not. They will not be they will not. Why rude? Like that? I thought like that before. But they the bullets. The military, the bullets. The army, they are very rude. They are very why? Yeah, it made me surprised about that. Yeah.

 

Host  59:08

This might be a silly question. Or it might be a question that's impossible to answer, but I'm wondering your thoughts on it. Why would Buddhist soldiers in the military physically beat a monk knowing the karma and the consequences they would have for doing such a an unskillful and bad action? Oh, consequence? Yeah, what right right consequence, the karma the cause and effect. Why? Why would a Buddhist soldier beat a monk knowing how much he's going to suffer for for doing that?

 

U Gambira  59:45

Surely they don't believe about they don't believe about Buddhism isn't? Yeah, yeah. They don't believe bubbling. They really just the interest. Yeah, they really about the interest bar. wha Yeah. interest on bahwa. Yeah. They don't care about Buddhism, religion, religion. They don't care about religion. Yeah.

 

Host  1:00:13

Right. And so take us what happens next. And so you at this point, you have issued a public statement to national international media asking for an apology. And how does the military respond? And then what do you do after that?

 

U Gambira  1:00:31

Yeah, I announced, we announced shortly I announced nigh September 2007. Yeah. And now, we announced that we know the stigma to the military government, by military government. Yes, it is. And we DVC RFA. DVB Yeah. And some Indonesian media's, yeah. Man, if you go home, and we would know about that already, because they listen, they will listen, they will listen about that. But they don't, they didn't notice one. And he did. So we decide, okay. They don't respond any day. They don't respond. So we decided we were but we were too bad. And we're gonna come and now we are make the marching. We are to the marching we are much on on the road, all around Bama. Yeah, Monk, nuns, monks group nine groups, or Obama. And now we do that again. 17, September with depth and depth of dem by booth on the seventh. Yeah.

 

Host  1:01:50

And I just want to highlight to the audience how spectacular and extraordinary this moment is, because you're looking at 2007, there has not really been any cracks or anything really pushing against the military regime since 1988. So that's 20 years where there has been almost no activity. And this activity is led by monks and nuns and it is a response to monks being beaten. So in this very closed and brutal dictatorship, run by the military, suddenly for for people that are looking on the streets, people that are are outside of Myanmar and picking out and looking at the newspapers or looking online, suddenly, they're seen almost out of nowhere, the streets are filled with monks and nuns that are protesting the military regime. And I think the way you describe it here, you describe your, you know, three years of underground movement leading up to this moment. So this, this makes sense that you were running these underground networks and undergoing political training, and waiting for a spark and this was the spark. I think for people that were watching this or even people in the country that didn't know about these underground networks. It was really something unusual and spectacular and surprising to see the streets of a military dictatorship filled with monks and nuns chanting the metta suta, wishing for all beings to be happy and peaceful and calling on the military regime to to change. So what what do you remember of the reaction in Myanmar at the time of seeing these protests start to come out?

 

U Gambira  1:03:29

Yeah, I remember. Yeah. I remember a lot about the events. Yeah. Tell us Yeah. Yeah. A lot. A lot. I remember a lot at that time. At that days. Yeah, that is I was in Mandalay. I wasn't I wasn't Monday, I arrived in Mandalay. And I made them meeting every day, every night with the max with the Nan's. Yeah, in Mandalay. And I asked her the I asked her the interview with the I saw the NW from the radio stations. Yeah, PVC. We did we RFP? Yeah. Yeah, that is.

 

Host  1:04:12

Right. And what else do you remember? From those protest movements? Can you walk us through those days where you have hundreds and then 1000s of monastics in the streets? What else can you tell us about the protests as they were forming?

 

U Gambira  1:04:26

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Money, money. monks and nuns. Libre Bieber. brought us on the roads. Each three days. Each tortious Yeah, in Bama at that time. Yes. Yeah. Hundreds and 1000s are being mountain outside. ladybirds? Yeah, crew

 

Host  1:04:47

and what was happening, what was the what was the environment or the energy like in the streets to take us into the streets and tell us what the experience was like?

 

U Gambira  1:04:57

Oh, yeah. Five days. Uh, it was okay. The military, the military soldiers, bullets. They didn't they did a an why? The Biba? Yeah. The broadest. Yeah. But 2026 September. Now he said September don't he said 2728 September. Yet the three days yet the military soldiers, bullets, bullets and military soldier the shoot with a re this you do the broadest Max next novice lady bear with the real bullets on the ropes in Yangon. Mandalay. Yeah. And they peed. They arrest they'd be the monks none of it lady but with the sticks and then they arrest them a lot a lot money protest Max man all this lady by the way arrested and 2007 September 27 28th

 

Host  1:06:21

Yeah. And so which

 

U Gambira  1:06:25

one better? Oh yeah.

 

Host  1:06:26

Right. So would you say that the Saffron Revolution ended because they started beating and arresting the monks and nuns is that what ended the Saffron Revolution? Yeah. So there are some journalists and academics who have made the argument that the military did not actually kill any monks or nuns, that this is something that the democracy movement has fabricated and made up to try to get sympathy, but that there is actually no evidence that any monk or nun was killed by the military. This is an opinion by some journalists and academics, it's certainly not the majority of opinions. But it is an opinion that is out there by by some people who write about the Saffron Revolution. So as someone who was so involved in it, can you can you share your version of what happened? Can you respond to this claim that no monk or nun was actually killed by the military during the Saffron Revolution?

 

U Gambira  1:07:28

No, no, no, no, no monks, and now. Some monks and nuns were die dead were killed. were killed by the military. In 2007. Yeah, totally about, I think 200 to one over 200x. Yeah.

 

Host  1:07:51

Right. So can you from from your involvement with that? Can you say with certainty that you witnessed or you heard or it was reported that specific monks and nuns were killed by the military in specific places? on a specific day, and you know this to be a fact? Yeah, we lose

 

U Gambira  1:08:10

our bots. Yeah. I've tried the after I finished the revolution. And we lost the we lose our member. We didn't see them anymore. Why? Yeah. Because they passed away. They were killed. The monks nuns? Yeah. Because they cannot come back to the monastery.

 

Host  1:08:34

And I know that there is independent documentation backing this up. But I wanted to get you on the record, because,

 

U Gambira  1:08:41

yeah, did you do it? The odd just beyond BFBS? Phone the monastery,

 

Host  1:08:48

right. And I know that there is documentation that of the murders of monks and nuns and many eyewitness reports that are out there. But I wanted to make sure I got you on the record, because there is this alternative revisionist story that's not not just from people that are military supporters and Burmese. But even some foreign journalists and academics have written claiming that no monks and nuns were actually harmed, and this is this is something that is not true. That's being promoted by the democracy movement, to get sympathy. And so I just want to make sure that we respond to that with your first hand experiences. Yeah. So then after the Saffron Revolution basically ends because of the violence and the arrests of the monks and nuns. What happens to you what where do you go and what consequences do you face?

 

U Gambira  1:09:38

I've taught the software revolution. I was arrested. Yeah, November 4. footnote about dude on the seventh I was arrested in Mandalay. Yeah. And I was in the I was put in the entire recording gap. Yeah. And I, I was in the I was in the do I want him to breathe in, and I was arrested. Charges I was charged with in that presence.

 

Host  1:10:18

And how long did you spend in prison? are

 

U Gambira  1:10:22

totally half Thai full years and two months. Part time two to four years and to max. Yeah.

 

Host  1:10:29

And then you were released and then arrested again.

 

U Gambira  1:10:33

Yeah. Released and then arrest. Okay. Yeah. 46 783 days. And then much, much. Seven and eight. Two days. Yeah. And then December? Nobody knows. Nobody do December 10 2012. Yes. Four for time. Yeah. And then and then to the on assistant, sis Max. Yeah.

 

Host  1:11:04

Why did they keep releasing you and then arresting you again?

 

U Gambira  1:11:08

Oh, because I stay working about my underground work. political activities.

 

Host  1:11:18

But But why would they release you and then arrest you again? Why not just keep you in prison?

 

U Gambira  1:11:23

Yeah, because it donations. Government pressures. Yeah. And donations, and government pressure. So they released me, okay.

 

Host  1:11:33

And I know that you've spoken about the harsh treatment that you experienced in prison and the torture as well. As far as you're comfortable. How can you describe the conditions that you faced in prison?

 

U Gambira  1:11:48

Oh, yeah. Yes. I was fists, three kinds of outdoor charts in the beaches. Yeah, physically. I told ya, man Teto Cha and can be kept watch us so we kind of saw torture I face in the prisons.

 

Host  1:12:03

Can you give us examples of each?

 

U Gambira  1:12:05

Oh, can we get a physical torture? Yeah, they beat me they get me. Yeah, they catch me. Yeah. In the prisons. Yeah. Is it physical torture? Yeah. And they they they don't they do not allow me to go outside from the breathing sir. Yeah. Is physical torture Yeah. My torture is the is the boys is I cannot see them. Be but but I got here the voices from my word my ear from the war from this presents. Reasons ceiling or floor reason floor? Yeah. Is my torture. Yeah. Is skits for Nia like schizophrenia. Yeah. Mat comica torture is the ingestion they put ingestion into my body three times. What did they inject? I don't know that ingestion name. Yeah, I don't know that medication. But I feel very bad feeling

 

Host  1:13:24

about that. How what was the effect of the chemicals

 

U Gambira  1:13:28

are after I got the injured? ingestion? My body eyelid? I would tone and fall on the floor. I fall down on this floor and I sink my body or them or my body shaking shaky, shaky shaky and I shall I shall. All the time. Yeah, about 45 minutes or one hours. And then they injure me. Okay. And then it began and shaky. Starts dots dot little was Dalida was calm, calm, calm. Yeah. And then normally, okay.

 

Host  1:14:09

And also during this time, I understand. You were sentenced to work hard labor and you also underwent a hunger strike. Can you tell us about both of those?

 

U Gambira  1:14:19

Oh, no. Haleiwa No. Halima, but I make the hunger strike in the prisons. Yeah. Yeah. And up reasons. Young go insane in Mandalay. Obote, ha oh, orebodies in in Candy. Candy Beeson. Yeah, yeah, I make the hunger strikes. Yeah. In the prisons,

 

Host  1:14:40

how long did you did you avoid food

 

U Gambira  1:14:43

in Yangon three days in Mandalay Mandalay five days is in candy. manually do candy I was. I made the hunger strike in Mandalay. Five days after a fight This, they sent me to they transfer me to the candy Beeson I stick on the news making hunger strike. Yeah. So 92 early 90 days and Mandalay five days in candy four days. And that's right. So don't early 90s.

 

Host  1:15:21

Right. And so your cell phone revolution is 2007. And you're in and out of prisons for the next nine years. It's not until 2016 That you're, you're released and leave the country. So basically, for those nine years, you're enduring some kind of suffering in one prisoner and other around the country. Is that right?

 

U Gambira  1:15:43

Yeah, yeah. Two thumbs down in January, not in not in January do down into a hot time. And then people already six have a second tie. And a much seven, eight. tie tie, and decent normal. I thought D doodle then to A to D, the Marta, fourth tie. And the January. Night, January 9, to January 9 2016. To July in fast to the honor system. Yeah. November 5, die. Yes. Totally fighter.

 

Host  1:16:28

So after the Saffron Revolution in 2007, you're arrested five times in nine years. Yeah. And spend a lot of those nine years in prison enduring torture.

 

U Gambira  1:16:39

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the most, the most rue the most bloody rude torture. I was in first time. In prison. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've tried that. I've tried the Miss Ross, there's not much torture.

 

Host  1:17:06

Going back to your role in 2004, five, and six buildings, underground networks looking for a spark than being the leader of the Saffron Revolution, when everyone started coming to the streets, you must have known the consequences for your actions, you must have known that you could very well be arrested, tortured, and even killed by the military. If you take these risks, that these are very real dangers, so. But even knowing these dangers, even knowing these risks, you still spent all of those years and then in the Saffron Revolution, playing a big role in in bringing these protests to life and on the streets. And so knowing how risky and dangerous this work was, why did you decide to take the stand even with the consequences of doing so?

 

U Gambira  1:18:00

Because I want to I want to my country be redeemable basic country? Yeah, I wanted. I wanted it. I want I want my country to be a democracy country. I want my country to be freedom. Fair. Equality country. Yeah. peaceful country. Yeah. So I decided to do that. Yeah. And I already know that. I might die. Yeah, in the region. If I arrest that, they were they will kill him. They might kill me. I already know that. But I don't care. Yeah, I must do for the truth. I must do for the people. I decided like that.

 

Host  1:18:48

So you felt ready to make any personal sacrifices or hardships to try to make an improvement in your country and society? Yeah. Right. And then in 2016, I believe it was you left Myanmar for good.

 

U Gambira  1:19:02

Yeah, at the time. Yeah. Dude on the system. My wife. I love Bama. I love your mom. Yeah. Because my wife is Australia. Yeah, so she said live with ha and Austalia together in Bama Naga for you. She said, Because of the arrest you kinda again, they torture you kinda. They torture you again, and we're gonna arrest you. We're gonna. It's not where you are hurt. It's not so good yet. You have to take the rest many, many years. She said. So I agree with her. So, I I tried. My wife tried for me to live in Australia. Yeah, I've tried to dawn the system. Yeah.

 

Host  1:19:50

And even during the NLD years of the transition, where it was relatively more safe. I know the military was still in control in some regard. But Even in those transition years after 2016, when the NLD was, was elected, you never felt safe going back even for a visit during that time.

 

U Gambira  1:20:09

Yeah, yeah. Even under the Aladdin. Yeah. I never said. Yeah. Because energy doesn't have power. Yeah. And that led to it and add an LD one in the alessian. But an athlete has had power. Yeah, the power is in the, in the military dictatorship. They who military to get us your hood, the power, or the tie. So energy doesn't have power, even they already elected. So it's not it for me.

 

Host  1:20:47

And these underground mungkin networks that you were setting up before the Saffron Revolution? Were they completely destroyed after 2007? Or were they able to be maintained by different leaders?

 

U Gambira  1:21:00

No. I've talked with on the seventh I after I was arrested, another leaders in Bogota Shan Takara. They maintain continuously, that they cannot do. very harmonious. Yeah. Because they don't have they don't have experience and think, and then they don't have experience a lot. Yeah. And I've tried to do that for too long attend our organization, beginning and end end and the end, because we don't have sandboarding.

 

Host  1:21:47

There have been some people that have criticized the Saffron Revolution in regards to monks being involved with what they would call politics and saying that monk should not be taking to the streets, and bringing the social issues and learning these political theories and engage in nonviolent resistance and methods. The role of a Buddhist monk is to study and to meditate and follow the Winnie the vinyasa, the 227 precepts. And this is really the role of the monk not to do these other things. How would you respond to that?

 

U Gambira  1:22:20

Oh, yeah, yeah, surely, surely, the the according to the teachings of Buddha, the monk should do to, to them just to them, God, da doo da, doo da, da da da da me learning the teachings of Buddha. And now we've got the nod. Rami? Brad, using the meditation. You're just two things for the month, Judy? Yeah, just two duties for the month. But also, according to the teachings of Buddha, the monks not only the monks for Schumann, Schumann, Buddha said, if you if you began, if you be a human, if you are a human being, you must stand on the the bar or right? Yeah, you don't. You don't, you shouldn't you must not stand on that. But Oh, wrong. Yeah, is according to the teachings of Buddha. So the monks, including the brothers, the mother involved in the blood death is okay. Because it's non violent movement is according to the teachings of Buddha. So I think it is okay.

 

Host  1:23:48

Now, in the transition years, we started to see some monks and monasteries take on another kind of political interest, rather than looking towards democracy and human rights as you were doing. They were looking towards a fear of anti Islam, anti Rohingya, and supporting this sense that the military needed to protect Buddhism and protect the Sangha, and move in this different direction. When did you start to see this different shift and movement among monks who were moving more in a in a in a right direction, towards a conservative nationalistic anti Islam stance? When did you start to see that take shape?

 

U Gambira  1:24:37

Oh, yeah. It's surely, in fact, that Islamophobia. Then Islamophobia is invoked IBAMA. I'm on the Mac organization. Yeah. I'm one the mouse community. It is The military government intelligence, they make the Islamophobia a lot of a lot of into the among the Hmong community. Money. Yes. So you remember how before I told you already, we made the we distribute them? Underground China and alcohol magazine and underground newspaper? Yeah. In the, in those newspaper China magazine, we already explained about Islamophobia. This is Islamophobia This is military dictatorships what when I kind of saw his world one as don't believe that already i We already explained since 2005 Two down there six aliados on a seven on one that monk community in Bama

 

Host  1:25:58

when did you start to see on a on a ground grassroots level monk starting to promote anti Islam and anti Rohingya When did when did you first become aware of it

 

U Gambira  1:26:09

ah, at the time and at that time growing up problem was not IBAMA wrong bla bla bla is good all that that didn't study to Donna daddy. Yeah, Islamophobia problem is long since long time ago and since long time ago in Bama yeah the military government newer dance we knew once all mountains we can you dance you they they make the Islamophobia us and Bama money years. Yeah.

 

Host  1:26:47

And when did you first become aware that monks were playing a role in supporting Islamophobia?

 

U Gambira  1:26:54

I noticed a ball Islamophobia. About a month because two tones one 2002 Yeah, I noticed a Monday monk community about Islamophobia. Yeah, because it is the book military karma intelligence. We call Am I Am I military intelligence Am I Am I members, they distribute and publish the books, Islamophobia books, and one that month and one that monk community embalmer? Yeah, we saw that and do don't do don't didn't want to do the other two. Yeah. So it's an Islamophobia books. Yeah. For example, doing their USA movie Omatsu Josiah Goro. Karuna four isn't like that. Yet. Those books, three books,

 

Host  1:27:52

and what did you think about this?

 

U Gambira  1:27:54

Ah honestly, to be honest, I also I also I also believe that the books Yeah, that books writing? Yeah. Ah, Islam. Muslim. Very bad. Yeah. We have to tech Muslim. Yeah. Muslims are very bad. Yeah, it's not Islam it what Islam is and it's very bad. Yeah. We have to adapt Muslim. Yeah, I have to be honest. I also talk about that later. Yeah. And we just tried to more Yeah, we just tried the more the mask Max. Max. You you personally destroyed it. Yeah. I also bought in 2001. Yeah. In 2001. Yeah. Yeah. And

 

Host  1:28:58

how do you feel about that now looking back? Ah,

 

U Gambira  1:29:01

no, I, I know about Islamophobia. So I released I free from Islamophobia. So I should not do that. I think. No,

 

Host  1:29:14

so do you do do you feel regret or sadness when you think about that action?

 

U Gambira  1:29:20

No, I don't regret that and I'm fee upset. Yeah. And tip upset. But I don't regret about that. Because the other time I was a young monk who Yama who gets knowledge is a little bit knowledge. No, no much knowledge. Right. So we met raw. We were we might wrong in the young man who? Yeah.

 

Host  1:29:47

How did you change? How did you change from being a young monk who believed the military propaganda that Islam was a danger into being someone who understood Islamophobia and and saw that Muslims and Rohingya have a place in Myanmar like everyone else and they should not be discriminated against how did you change those opinions?

 

U Gambira  1:30:09

Yeah, to do that to do not only do I run away from Yangon to Bakugou Yeah. Because the military intelligence trying to arrest me, because I am both I including and do the just trying to move more. Yeah. Yeah. So Coco and pop, my native village needed talk about on auto hookworm, just for the height seven, or sorry, 40s 47 minds, ya know, so far. So I visit to my Natal. So I met my father. My father asked me about my activities. I as I explained him, so my father explained me about Islamophobia. Yeah, he, he knew about Islamophobia is not what Islam is Islamophobia. It is segregation. There this. He saw he call me his. He see Islamophobia, certification. It is one thing I don't remember. Sorry. Yeah. One more day. Yeah. He's made me a lot. Painterly. Eventually, I know about Islamophobia. Yeah.

 

Host  1:31:39

And so then by the time the Rohingya crisis happened in 2013, what was your understanding then? And what were your feelings then about what was happening in Rakhine?

 

U Gambira  1:31:50

Oh, yeah. You know, kind of state Yeah. Rakhine State is money already. problem between Muslims. You can be bad. Yeah. And to the other day, it is no good situations, to kind of stay about Muslims. Who doesn't? Yeah, so I wrote the Oba letter to you, you go about Islamophobia. Yeah, I explained about her. And then she published. And then the media, some media has published about that open letter. Yeah. So many people know about that. Yeah. Many people said, Thank you so much. This is right. We should not we should not do that. This sample is a sample this people say that. Yeah.

 

Host  1:32:57

At that time, there were not a lot of monks that were speaking out. Supporting the Rohingya and the Muslims in Myanmar?

 

U Gambira  1:33:03

Yeah. Yeah. At the time. Yeah. At that time. At that time, I had also very bad problem. At that time. I was very, I was very at the time I could not do along. Surely as you know, I should do the I should preach. Sorry, I should speech to the Be bear on the road about Islamophobia at the time, but I gonna do because I was very, very sick at the time. So I tried to rope touch. I tried to write Oberliga to you, you go from Japan. Yeah. So but it is okay. That Obama made a lot of it's been itching about Islamophobia.

 

Host  1:33:52

So now let's go to present day and the military coup happened a couple of years ago. What was your reaction when you saw that yet? Again, the military had taken over the country

 

U Gambira  1:34:03

at that time. No, I did. I am in Australia. So I just two little DVDs about military coup. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's far from your mom. I have no insight Myanmar not far from away from your mom. So I make the meeting. I talk about the same money to the groups. Yeah. Like that. No match.

 

Host  1:34:36

And and what was your feeling when the military did the coup? Were you surprised? What what how did you feel when you learn the news? Yeah, I

 

U Gambira  1:34:46

don't surprise I already know that military coup will be again, and that another one bit revolution where we began where began IBAMA again, I already know the All ties since long time ago. I already know that one day it will it began. I already know that. Yeah. So I don't surprise but I like it. I like that military group because of this is another military embalmer anymore. Because nowadays, the all around the Bama Biba reboot, revolution make the revolution, the reboot to military nowadays. Yeah. So I like military coup.

 

Host  1:35:36

You liked the military coup why? Why did you like it? Because

 

U Gambira  1:35:40

it's no dice yet in Bama? Yes for for another Tiki dashes in Bama. Yeah,

 

Host  1:35:47

so that's very interesting because I think when the coup happened first, many people thought the military is going to control like they always control they've they've never lost they always managed to be violent and brutal enough that they can control the people. And many people thought that in this after this recent coup, that the military would again crack down and control the people. But the resistance effort is stronger than it's ever been. And two years on they through CDM through and ug through PDF. through so many ways they're continuing to resist the military regime. Many people have been surprised that the resistance has been so strong and successful in ways that have never happened before. Have you been surprised by this?

 

U Gambira  1:36:36

Yeah, the I don't surprise a lot. I'm surprised. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, it surprised a little bit. I didn't know I didn't think I didn't talk. I didn't think about that. It will be it will be berry berry bit revolution. Like this in Bama. But no Berry. berry berry berry bushes and Bama nowadays. Yeah, so I surprised a little bit. Yeah. But not, not to my surprise, because I already think about that. Yeah. And

 

Host  1:37:12

how have the monks and the Sangha and the nuns and the novices. How have they been involved in the last two years?

 

U Gambira  1:37:20

Yeah, no, I did. last two years. And nowadays, some monks and nuns and novice including in the Nirvana movement in Bama, anti anti nowadays. Yes, but I think now vongola movement is not useful for barman anymore. Yeah. Yeah. We use we span we use Nan Viola movement many years, yet? Yes. Many decades. Many decades. Yeah. Many years. We use that method, nonviolent madness, to revolt. The big data sheets and Obama. But it's not useful for Obama. Nirvana movement is not useful for Obama. So I'm struggling movement is useful for Obama and then for poor Obama. Yeah.

 

Host  1:38:17

So you support the armed resistance. And as someone as a former monk, and as someone who worked so hard at non violence for so long, is it difficult for you to come to the realization that you need to support the armed resistance?

 

U Gambira  1:38:34

Yeah, yeah. I suppose the cameras to LIDAR bit yeah. Literally nowadays. Yeah. I thought about them. Yeah, I saw money. A little bit. Yeah. Not much, because I'm not rich.

 

Host  1:38:50

And is that? Is that hard for you? Is that ethically challenging for you to as a monk who lived in non violence for so many years? Is it painful for you to support the armed resistance or is it fairly easy?

 

U Gambira  1:39:06

Yeah. Yeah. nonviolent movement is not useful for Obama. Why? Because the Obama military column man Rama Murthy degree dash is very why dictatorship very why military government, so they don't respect the human rights. They don't respect the human being human rights. Yeah, they don't respect the rule and rule of law. So they are rude they are why so they don't deserve what about nonviolent movement? They deserve wood. Unstructured movement. Yeah.

 

Host  1:39:52

But knowing knowing that the armed struggle will call will cause loss of life and and killing On on both sides is that is that painful for you to accept that this is what you need to support?

 

U Gambira  1:40:06

Yeah, yeah. It's been cool for me. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. It's very painful for me. I don't want to be I don't want the Barbie bird to be do the lighter Kill. Kill each other? Yes. attack each other I don't like it. Yeah, it's not according to the teachings of Buddha. Yeah I don't like it but we have no choice. Yeah, we must do that nowadays. Yeah we are not you gray. Yeah we are not you gray we are bom bom bom ease we are. Our country is Palma Ukraine has many sub host countries. Yeah many countries are boarding to Ukraine. Yeah. Bama no sub 30 countries, no countries are voting Obama. Yeah. Ukraine has many weapons. Yeah. Euro countries European Union some Ukraine money weapons America turn money once to Ukraine. Yeah you British some money we're going to Ukraine, Germany time money we're going to play by Obama. Nobody sat here money in a debit or even a debit one to you to Bama Biba PDF? Yeah, we buy our asset, we do our asset.

 

Host  1:41:45

And some of these monks and nuns and novices who are active today since the recent coup. Are is there activity related to the work that you did 1015 years ago? Are those the same networks that they're becoming involved in and they're learning and training in? Are these new networks of new monks and nuns that are being involved?

 

U Gambira  1:42:09

Yeah, my man boss, they are worth three times whatever it is. They are watching is about Nirvana moment. Yet. Yeah. What they are watching, watching about Nirvana moment. The don't know about llama Biba don't like that. They don't like and try their movement. Yeah.

 

Host  1:42:35

So the the monks and nuns that are in the nonviolent movement today, are they connected to the network that you set up?

 

U Gambira  1:42:42

Yeah, yeah, I'm still gonna want that. Yeah, it's deep on there with that. Yeah, I think we know with N and T nowadays. Yeah. The number and movements. Sometimes I send them money. Yeah, but a little bit. I'm not rich.

 

Host  1:42:57

Sure. Sure. I think that one of the observations people have pointed out is that the Saffron Revolution, I mean by the very name, this is being led by monks and you're having so many monks and nuns out in the street that are, are being involved. And since the military coup A couple of years ago, you're not seeing as many monks and nuns involved. Many of them are staying in their monasteries, and nunneries some of them are actually supporting the military regime and are speaking publicly that the military is protecting Buddhism and encouraging the people to accept their rule. Do you think that this is accurate that there are not so many monks and nuns involved today? And why do you think that is?

 

U Gambira  1:43:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, good. Question. Yeah. Nowadays, mountain some monks and nuns are novice involving the non bowel movements in Bama, aunty nowadays, yeah. Tangata Maga sunguard some of the Maga mandali Yeah. New HR unit Dhammakaya Danga Dhamaka Yangon dunga de magie. Yangon some monk organization groups, they are making the novela movement strikes. Slogans protests in Bama anti nowadays, yes, but nowadays, the Bama revolutions tie it chain already. Is not Nirvana movement revolution. Yes, I'm Striga revolutions die because of BDF the other anthrax II Oh, yeah. They are fighting to the military. Government with the guns is Amtrak good? No. So Amtrak is more than Nirvana movement nowadays. So monk, novice cannot evolve into the abstract guys. So, now monks and nuns and novice are just a little nervous and Bhama. Moon making the revolution embalmers. Yeah, because of different revolutions time. Yeah.

 

Host  1:45:41

That makes sense. What do you think about some of the more famous and and revered monks? Of course, Sitagu say it as at the top of that. There are other monks and monastic leaders that are known very well in Myanmar, but not so much by a foreign audience. But Sitagu Sayadaw is famous, both in Myanmar and around the world. And what do you think of people like him and like other monk leaders that have not supported the democracy movement, and in some ways, even seem to provide legitimacy to the military? What are your feelings on? why they're doing that? And how do you feel about that?

 

U Gambira  1:46:22

Yeah, Sitagu CRO, I'm know him very well. Yeah, I met him sometime. Yeah, I met him some time. I know him very well. Yeah. He made a mistake. Yeah, he made a mistake. Yeah. A few years ago. Yeah. Because money, power, money and power making mistake. Yeah.

 

Host  1:46:47

So do you think he supports the military regime and manaan long at this time? Yes. He's

 

U Gambira  1:46:51

about to the military returns a lot. Yeah. Because it's money and power. He liked power. He liked money. Yeah, he doesn't like the teaching sapota. He liked he doesn't like that truth.

 

Host  1:47:06

It seems to me that no matter what happens with the revolution, and how long it takes, that Burmese Buddhism is going to be changed. I don't know how it's going to be changed. But the relationship between the younger generations and traditional Buddhism and the relationship between the late supporters and the monks, everything is changing right now, in this moment of revolution. Do you agree with that? And if so, what do you think Burmese Buddhism? Well transition to?

 

U Gambira  1:47:42

Oh, yeah. It will not be changing. A lot about bommies photius. traditionelle. Yeah. Yeah. But who is? The bomb is B bear. Who the weapon and on key the military, government, military, Army police nowadays, because they need freedom. Freedom, they need fair. They need equality. They need beats. They don't have a choice. They don't have a choice. Then they met at Tech to military government. They Max choose the weapon nowadays. Yeah. Because the Nirvana movement is not useful for Bahama nowadays. Yeah. Because why? Because military government is very Burmese Burmese Burmese military. Calama. Burmese military government is very wide government. Very rule government. They don't want a ball with about the Nirvana. Yeah, they don't sink. They don't say they don't have che.

 

Host  1:49:03

Are you disappointed that some of the prominent and famous monk leaders in Myanmar that they have have not spoken against the military government and actually seem to be supporting them?

 

U Gambira  1:49:17

Oh, yes. Yeah, I know. Some monks. suddenly die, man. Yeah. Does that surprise you? Yeah. Monks, above many monks. Many monks are stays standing with a true embalmer. Yeah. But judge just longevity man, humans. Just a two month cooperate with military government, male, Burmese military government male. Yeah. Because they just a few months. They like money and power. Yeah.

 

Host  1:49:53

I realize I want to go back to one moment in the Saffron Revolution. I forgot to ask about that. I've I think has gotten a lot of it. tension during those days and that's that in Yangon, the Saffron Revolution, some of the biggest moments happened in Shwedagon Pagoda and monks chanting the metta SUTA. And I want to ask about your decision for both of these. Why did you decide to gather a treaded gone pagoda? And why did you decide to chant the meta SUTA?

 

U Gambira  1:50:24

All because we have to my team. We have too much on the road. We have too much on the road, much on the road. And then we have to show the Navajo land movement. So now Viola, MUMA muda soda. This is very very fit. Very harmony. So I like it. So I choose that middle chant muda soda, machine marching, marching, we're chanting meta soda. Because meta Dharma and peace. Yeah, we have to show yeah, the BB we have to show the BB we have to show the military dictatorship, we have to show to the arm. The word Viva about Nampo learn about Muda. About drama about bees. Midata. Bees.

 

Host  1:51:21

So that was your decision? Yeah,

 

U Gambira  1:51:24

I decide to champion them Minnesota. Yeah.

 

Host  1:51:27

Yeah. That's quite an interview. It's quite a life story and quite a life that you've led. And now you're here in Australia. So how is your life in Australia? And do you miss parts of Myanmar? And if so what parts of Myanmar Do you miss?

 

U Gambira  1:51:43

Yeah, I miss Yeah. Yeah, honestly, I miss Myanmar. What do you miss? Yeah, my friend. My college. Yeah. My mom bought my family. My religious. Yeah, my country and I miss my country sometime. Yeah.

 

Host  1:52:00

Right. I hope that you can go back to a peaceful and safe and democratic Myanmar sometime in the future.

 

U Gambira  1:52:06

I hope so. Yeah, I hope so. I will go back to Myanmar. One finish the revolution. And we're visiting Myanmar again. Yeah. Well,

 

Host  1:52:14

I thank you so much for taking this time to tell your story. It's really been so valuable for me to understand this myself to bring this to listeners to hear the story direct from your mouth of how you came to lead this underground monastic network, resulting in the Saffron Revolution and just the terrible suffering that you endured as a consequence for trying to support for democracy and human rights, the courage that took and the sacrifice. That's really something. So I really thank you for coming on to share your story. And before we go, I just want to know you have this platform. You have a lot of people listening to your story now. Is there anything that you would like to say to address the audience that hasn't been covered in the interview?

 

U Gambira  1:53:03

Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much. But I have to apologize. My English is my English skill is not so good. So it's okay. Yeah. Thank you.

 

Host  1:53:14

I really thank you for taking the time to share your story and talk to us. And this This is. This has just been so valuable to learn and thank you for taking this time.

 

U Gambira  1:53:25

Yeah. Thank you. I also thank you to you. Yeah, thank you.

 

Host  1:53:30

And can you give us one more minute of chanting the metta SUTA?

 

U Gambira  1:53:33

Yeah, I would turn to the Minnesota No. New Bhawan Toyota a new one doesn't even Yeah, New Zealand New yours and or are they new? To kind of read those above again see not by the D. You Amati Guna? Ma a that any matter who the Lena Jana missa The goal was not Imani. I know that was I'll do Rosa about these data hoga OD and entity or Sunniva goes above level the NASA hold on Mars vacati You know when you pray about what do Dookie no okay me know about that is Ivana Buddha Gita the word Ouattara one What did diga mizzima is how are you? How are you? I really wish they would have done with the rover and ego wait another minute and as you can see the lovely garden Yeah, Ninja mania. Madaya Tony. Gobble Damn it wouldn't be alive today Do we have live meetings our logo domain Mana dubawi Oh, adores DDS. Randy they know what they are no we don't meet it under at Ramadan we meet days I knew about me Winnie the

 

Host  1:55:37

Pooh I'll be honest, not only is asking for donations my least favorite thing in the world to do, I find it pretty uncomfortable as well. Yet it is an unavoidable but necessary task in order to ensure that our platform can continue to bring you stories from post coup Myanmar. And unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that there is a basic minimum cost to keep our engine humming. So please allow me to take a moment for that least favorite and uncomfortable thing to do, and ask sincerely for your generosity in supporting our mission. If you found value in today's show, and think others might as well, we ask that you take a moment to consider supporting our work. Thank you for taking the time to hear our spiel. And with that, it's off to work on the next episode. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar or being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian immediate missions, aiding those local communities who need post. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support. Perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission better Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled ve t t e r bu R ma dotwork. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at a local crafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spelled a LOKCRA FTS one word a local crafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support

 

1:58:58

right I need my lady Hello guys. How are

 

1:59:03

you

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