Transcript: Episode #157: Simplicity And Solidarity

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Eh Nay Thaw. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

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Host  00:17

We all know how serious and dreadful the current situation in Myanmar is. For those of us outside the country, it can be difficult to know how to help. Of course, there are significant ongoing needs across all segments of Burmese society. For those who are able to get financially any donations given to our nonprofit mission better Burma will immediately be put towards helping those being impacted by the just go to insight myanmar.org/donation to contribute today, or stay tuned to the end of the episode to hear more options. Thank you for your consideration. And now let's get into the interview that follows. He, he, and I literally had a good day. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and it was it was that. ma na, da. Thank you for joining this episode of insight Myanmar podcast. Welcome.

Eh Nay Thaw  01:54

Thank you for having me. All right. So

Host  01:55

you've had quite a journey in your life bringing you where we are today. Before we get to where you are now. Let's go first to where it began. Can you tell us a bit about your upbringing?

Eh Nay Thaw  02:07

Yes, absolutely. So my journey began from Karen hill tribe live in the hill, mountain side of Eastern Burma current state. I was born in there. And when I was two years old, after the fall of the de facto Current State Capitol, the minor flaw in 1985, the eastern side of current state experience intensify on conflict between the Burmese military and the Korean armed groups. And so when the word densify, or village came under attack by the Burmese military, because we live in resistance area, commonly known as liberated area nowaday. And so because of that, we became the collateral damage of arm, chronic armed conflict between the Burmese and the Korean forces. And so in 97, my family, my mom and I, and my older brother had to flee across to Thailand, Burma, Thailand, and virtually became refugees. And we live in refugee camp. My was called Tammy refugee camp. And I lived there for 10 years. And after living there for 10 years, I had opportunity to resettle here in the United States back into those seven. So when we restarted here in the United States, my family and I have ever ever since I've lived here and in the US. So now I'm currently live in the United States, specifically in Kentucky, working with the refugee resettlement so as we go on, talk and explore more about my career path, and yeah, overall, families for current state Burma became refugees, living camp for 10 years and then now live in the United States as the Burmese Korean diaspora.

Host  04:19

Right. That's quite a story. you reference the fall of metaplot. And your village being in the attack lines, and so having to escape to a refugee camp, how old were you at that time?

Eh Nay Thaw  04:30

Yeah, so I was a little kid a little bit younger and then two years old. I don't remember much. Because of that, thankfully, I don't remember much because if I do, I'll be a lot of pain and suffering. But at the same time, I do hear quite a lot of stories from my mother. And also other Koreans who live among hear lots of horror stories of the journey from I'm running, fleeing the Burmese military in the jungle, deep eastern side of current state in the jungle, where food was scars, Clean Waters, medicines were Oscars at the time. And I remember my mom who told me stories of elders or sick people who are in the process of running away from the Burmese military in the jungle, were diseased because of malnourished because of other diseases like malaria. And also, lack of modern medicines that can prevent them from dying. So a lot of folks, elderly children, women die on the road as they flee the Burmese military. And at that time, man, the fall of money flow was the turning point for the current resistance movement, it was a major blow to the current resistance group. And when the fall of manipul, hundreds, hundreds of 1000s of folks became refugees across the type of a border. And I happened to be one of the few 100 1000s the type of border who grew up in refugees, as a child. So yeah.

Host  06:25

And of course, you were two years old. So you don't remember much of that yourself. But you mentioned hearing stories. I know there are risks in retelling some of those stories and going through living through that past trauma. At the same time, I'm balancing that with listeners who genuinely just don't know about what that reality was. And part of this podcast platform is to try to speak honestly and directly to uncovering the reality of suffering that so many people have gone through at the hands of the Burmese military. And so I wonder if some of the stories that you've heard if if there, if there's one that stands out that you might be comfortable sharing, knowing the with the caveat of knowing that I don't want to, I know sometimes just simply recalling something or remembering something, even if it's something you've heard, and you haven't lived through that can itself, bring back that trauma. Yet at the same time, it can also bring that harsh reality can educate an audience that might not simply understand. So I wonder if there's a story that you would feel comfortable going into keeping that balance in mind?

Eh Nay Thaw  07:31

Yeah, absolutely. I am grateful that yes, despite the horror, the horror and the trauma and the pain that we tell them story can bring to one or can trigger ones. Personally, I thankfully through this journey that I have experienced, I am comfortable returning stories of suffering around me personally that I have gone through. And mainly because after leaving the United States so long, part of my goal is advocated for the Korean people and other ethnic groups that are persecuted by the Burmese military regime. And through that journey of advocacy, of storytelling and of sharing the past, of persecutions and depressions. I found that journey while it's difficult to retell the story, while doing that, I find also space for reflection, and healing. It is through healing, that I'm able to retell stories of friends and families being killed on site, or others being cut off or mutilated of certain body parts. And the story that I heard from my Korean friends families around me are not uncommon. And that is because this story of our ethnic groups as minority in Burma be persecuted by the Burmese military is all of experienced by other ethnic minority, especially the Rohingya the colony, or the good chain or the chain. This stuff this story is this experience or a elected share stories. And now, since the military coup, we are also reading in scene observing for our Burmese counterparts of similar stories or the brutality or the military, killing us a woman meant on site mutilations, or brutal attacks against peaceful protests. These stories are to some extent. I'm not gonna say I'm numb to it, but it become a more Well, well no and well experienced by so many other people. And so tell you this story recounted their story. Also provide a space for reflection and healing, and also, a source of moving forward become the our story, or experience become a source of our strength that the ongoing fighting injustice is a continuous journey. And so for me, I use this personal experience, as somebody who grew up in a refugee camp have very little to eat, did they have the childhood that we envisioned for children here in my community, here in Kentucky, or we envision a modern society, right? Despite not having what a children who have not have the life that children should have? I found that journey to also serve as a source of motivation, a source of inspirations for myself and for others to continue to share stories of modern day persecutions of people just like you and I want to live peacefully in harmony and in with security. And so, to me, that is what I continue to tell others, despite some time and bring memory memories are founded it also it's a miss, it's also a necessity to share with others of the stories.

Host  11:36

Right, that's very true. And I understand this also relates to the work that you're doing. So you were able to escape and made it to a refugee camp and the bartop Burma Thai border. And stay there, as I understand it, 10 years before moving on to America and Kentucky more specifically, you basically grew up and had your childhood in the refugee camp, I imagine some of your first memories were there. I imagine that for any child, whatever situation you're going through, there's a kind of normalization process, whatever you're experiencing, that's what feels normal, because you don't really know the other ways of being. And, and so you your early years were in the formative years were all spent there. So what was it? What do you remember about growing up in the refugee camp and your experience as a young child coming into the world that this for a decade, this was all you knew?

Eh Nay Thaw  12:32

Yes, I happen to be one of those kid who grew up with vivid memories of past experience, and also visualized things to memorize things and to remember things and to carry in the memories of the past. I'm more of somebody who carry vivid images rather than the numbers or others who are not right. And so I happen to remember when I was a little boy, perhaps about three years old. out there on the field, perhaps because the camp is it used to be like it used to be mountains. It used to be trees all over the jungle with bushes, all that. But when the Thai official really locate our folks to move to the now known as Tammy refugee camp, I remember vividly that people were scattered everywhere. And were scattered everywhere sitting everywhere. Some of the floor on the ground or the dirt floor some standing looks like a huge, huge mess where we knew absolutely no idea what is going to happen. And I remember so vividly tie security vehicle came to Camp with siren light. And as they pass I remember many people were following me some kids were chasing it. Me or the other hand, I remember this pack of food I have my mod pack so the bag was a plain plastic bag in it. It's a rice fried with oil and perhaps ginger powder, because it's the color is very vivid and so it must have a ginger color. And so that's all I had. It was my all my hair was a bag of rice ready to be eaten. There was nothing else. Other than that. Some stories we tell by my mother. So many people needed immediate medical attention, especially elders who were so weak and vulnerable. habit to lay down on the floor on anywhere they can find rest, right and around this time the The Thai government did not sign. They never actually never signed a united United Nations Refugee Treaty that are responsible for refugees, so they are not obligated to accept refugees. And so it was time of fears of what of a serenity. Because Thai Thai Government are not responsible to accept refugees, and they can move and force us anytime back to across the border, which they have done historically, they have done it so many times they have done it before the coup, the 2021. coup, they have done a post that and there were fears that we might be forced to return back to Burma. And so we have to pack light, we can't carry much, we have to carry whatever we can carry on her hand. And I was a little boy, so my mom was carrying me most of the time, and my brother, who was three, almost four years old at the time working. And so that was my very first memory of refugee camp. And going forward. Thankfully, we were settled there, live there and go out there as a kid.

Host  16:17

So in hearing that, as well, like I know, when you're going through that experience as a child, there's one normalizes whatever that experience is and doesn't realize there could be differences. And yet, when you then move through your childhood, and you and as you have done, you have gone far beyond the refugee camp of the Tiber, a border and to the US and learn so much more about the way the world works. And the way that the tatmadaw and the Burmese military have worked and what they've done to the Qur'an, you've, your views have expanded so much. And so then, when you take your adults view, your your worldly view, your educated view that you've developed in your year since and when you look back at your memories of being in the refugee camp, do you ever have feelings of things that were happening at the time that you were going through them that you were just kind of normalizing it as accepting as this is this is just how the world is or this is what you know, how I live or this is the way things are. And then with that reflection of many years, and many experiences since that you look back on what happened in the refugee camp, and you've found Wow, that's that's really shocking. This was so normal to me at the time, but this is not this was not normal. This shouldn't happen. Are there any incidences or or just overall experiences during those 10 years that stand out that way?

Eh Nay Thaw  17:36

Yes. I mean, number one, we live in Thailand as refugee. Right? So we did not have right press didn't they were rights, that basic rights that were not granted to us, for instance, the right to speak freely, right? We did have that. And so I grew up thinking that and believe in that Earth as ethnic Korean people living in Thailand, best thing we can do to ourselves is to obey and that is to obey community leaders, parents, community leaders, elders, especially, especially Thai authority, we were told to strictly obey orders and do not ask a question. And so, this is sort of not only in the Easter tradition, but also especially when you are not a citizen of a country, you do not question what is being told to you. And so, overall, majeure, majority of refugee grew up learning to believe in that whatever one say you must follow it, and that is conditioned in, in our family, in our community, in our school, and then the whole camp right. And so, what for one instance, I give you one instance, are, we are being told to do whatever we are told to do, even if by the time authority and so, because of this because we are conditioned to follow orders, whenever the Chi security order, we must follow it. And so for instance, like growing up if there is concern in the community, if we had to enter this confusing post for some other reasons, if either you want to stay up late, play around with kids or as a kid, play around with others and you be told to go to sleep well, you have to go to sleep early, or if not, please turn off the light at say 9pm And so, these are common occurrence. Where if the order come for higher up, we must follow it. And we take it for granted that be able to speak for one. So to be able to think for oneself is something that it's alright. But to certain places, you can't even express your disagreement, especially when you are not a citizen of a country like Thailand, anti authority have ways of believing that they are superior in comparison to non citizen folks. And that is why when terms of age issue regarding to corruptions and brutality, we heard that often, we know that it's had that happen often because folks, security folks, police at the border, practically do whatever they feel like doing, especially when they are not in front of the superior, right? Say they are somewhere else that's not direct contact to the superior. And so I grew up believing that the moment I step outside of the cat perimeter, anytime I see or hear a vehicle or motorcycle that suspect it could be a Thai official, especially security guard or police. I run away as quickly as possible. I remember vividly me and my friends were going to vegetable. Faraj and we went to Faraj vegetable around the camp, and we were a group of nine. And as we will approach in the, on the row, and we hear vehicle approaching, we did not question once, whether this vehicle is belong to security personnel or civilian vehicle, as soon as we hear the vehicle approaching, we took off from the street and ran to the bush as quickly as possible. And the bushes are not just ordinary Bush, we talked about some tight cuz it's a hilly place. So the row on the hill, when the on the hill, you know, it's about up to 50, sometimes 80 feet tall, sometimes even longer depends on the heel, it will just jump off the heel and roll out of body like a rock and run as swiftly as possible. And when that happened, and adrenaline rush, you don't remember much. But I remember having to run through, jump off the cliff often. And after that, after running away and you look at yourself and your arm your legs, or cut it with grass or bushes or thorns or whatsoever. And offer we have scars, we grew up having Scott as its normal thing. So that's one thing, right dealing with security. Another thing is that because we live in an isolated place with rudimentary irrigation, so we do have to wake up every morning. For me, especially as one of the elder child in the family 5am Every morning, regardless of season of The Season of the day of the month, we will have to wake up every, every day in the morning, if I am to go and collect water at a centralized location and break back home. Whether Christmas with a new year or holiday, there is no such thing we have to work everyday fire to be able to collect enough water for family. And yeah, we really take this stuff for granted. Because that's how we were taught you know, we have to earn everything that we receive we have to earn it or else not gonna be give it to you other than of course, the United Nation program United United Nations World Food Program that offer a portion of rice or beans, oil every month, those are stuff that already given but what's not given is additional resource that you had to acquire to be able to get it. And so, as a kid, I lived and grew up in environments that no children should grow up in. I don't remember however the childhood that I see the children here or having and so because of that experience, I became mature quickly. At the age of 12, I look after my younger brother sisters had to pretty much parent them take care of them have to do additional cores. And so you become sort of the adults in the family. Because those are the steps that we do not necessarily have a like in the United States. And so a normalize having to be the adult as a younger children and normally have to follow orders have to obey everything that is being said, and normally not questioning and normalize. Just to, to even have nothing to have little to nothing to eat. And it was common that, you know, when it comes to food, there's never, ever going to be enough. And so that's what my childhood was.

Host  25:24

That's, that's a lot to share in some really horrific, difficult things to have to understand and have to hear and certainly have to live through. One of the things that really strikes me in that description is just describing the, the sense of powerlessness. And obviously, that powerlessness partly comes from statelessness from even you could say, identity lessness. And, and just kind of having to flee and float and just not having the sense of rights. And as you describe it, the whether it's, you know, the the bar military organization, the Tomodachi, whether it's the Thai authorities, or the camp directors, United Nations, or even whether it's the elders and who are leading the movement in the Korean community, there's this sense you describe of not really not only not having your own voice, but not even really having a right to your voice, that just the sense of submission to what the authority is, and not wanting to stand out beyond that. And yet, today and hearing you and there's a lot to fill in the gaps there. But in, in hearing you on this interview, I think that listeners will very much here a person that very much has a voice and very much is able to speak for and against this or that and to, to have opinions and to take action and everything else. And so you obviously have found your voice and have and have confidence in expressing it. And yet you're describing a stage in your life where you did not where where you're the defining characteristic of those years was the lack of having this voice and and having to submit it to whoever the authority was at a time. And so that begs the question, how did this development take place? How did you go from someone where your experience was defined by a lack of a voice into the person you are now where your voice is so strong and so clear and powerful in terms of what you believe? And what you want to express? How did that transition and transformation take place? Yes. So

Eh Nay Thaw  27:20

when I was in third grade, my teacher go around the classes asking, when you grew up, who do you want to be? And so as somebody who grew up in refugees, that question is really, really, really difficult to answer, due to the limited potential of say, a career. But also easy to answer because it would almost set a done that. Regardless what you choose, you're going to end up living in refugee camp, and not to live to your full capacity, but to live just to survive. So I remember my teacher asked me who do you want to be? And reflecting on my experience, you know, I hear some folks, students say, I want to be a teacher, which is a very common job for people growing up there if say they pass 10th grade in this case, or pass Junior College. Some say teachers, some say nurse, some say doctors, when we say doctor will talk about like, rudimentary, very basic field of medical profession. And then others say I want to be soccer players just to play for fun. So I'm say want to be a butcher, some say want to do lumbers. But in my case, I say I want to be a soldier. I want to join the resistance movement. And it's also a common choice of children. You know, we're talking about three years old, right? I mean, not three years, third graders, were asked this question, and I say, I want to be joined soldiers and the DCS. Why, why is that? And that is solely because I'll reflect on my experience, you know, as a Korean, your home will be in your hometown, you need it. In my case, my house, my home, my village, the whole village was burnt down by the Burmese military. think of myself as somebody who will fight to resist that authority, that can think that they can do whatever they want to do or whatever they like to do, I can accept that. So I think that I thought about it, I say I want to be a soldier. So that way, I will make a little bit challenging limit typical for these military soldiers to come in, burned down or torture whoever they want. So I want to make it a little bit harder for them. So I say I want to be a soldier. And that's not because I truly, truly want to be a soldier but because there is nothing else that I thought we were excited to do are more fun to do, and more meaningful to do. So I say I want to be a soldier and then so just being a soldier of course I can be a with amongst my Korean comrades. he shared that story of so many who have gone before us serve as a, if not a protector of a resistance for resilience people telling the Burmese soldiers that they cannot, they will not do whatever they want to do. And so I was dead set, I was going to be a soldier fighting the military regime. And so that was my roadmap as long as I live in refugee camp, but then into the seventh to the sixth when the United Nations United States of resettlement program here in the US, that took a drastic turn in my life. And so when we resettle here, my mind, my goal was to still be a soldier. But this time, the United States, I wanted to join the US Army at the time when I was a teenager. And I worked very hard for it in high school, to prepare myself to join the military. However, as I continue to explore that journey, my community here, my church, especially in my youth leaders, and the folks that are surrounded myself with thought that I could do more by going to school, and not necessarily joined the military. And so I wasn't interested in doing more interested in that set, go to serve in the military, and they're returned to constantly, that's how we call current state, culturally and share my experience in the US military with my fellow Korean soldiers, then the politics of Burma have changed. If you remember back into those 10, when off subsidy was released for prison, Burma charted to a new territory at the time, or normally moving progressive to democratic state, at least at the time that the international community international experts and scholars argue right, and it was charted to it, it was changed its course, from the feudal from the isolated, hermit kingdom that was that Burma was once No. And it was exciting time for resistant movement. It was exciting time for democratic activist and those that wants to see change Burma. And I thought, well, maybe I might not my military skill might not need in there, but perhaps somebody else. So I, you know, at least I can contemplate on this. And then tell myself, I have a choice. I have full power over myself, control over myself where I want to go next, right? Especially in the United States, you know, when you ask it, who do you want to be? There was so much potential, there's so much option, there are endless options you want to tell oneself and then executed to become that person. So for me when I question, reevaluated my, and reflect on my experience, and then moving forward, I knew where I was not going to be as a military anymore, I knew I want to do something that is not violent, something that is more for lack of a better word, more nonviolent resistance. And so I contemplate on it. And then I decided to go to school, got into pretty good college, and study classes that I want to study. So that to help me with my future career. And so that just, you know, have the ability to choose to become who you want to be. And do what you want to do was something that I would never take it for granted. Because reflecting on my life as a kid growing refugee camp, I didn't have that choice. You know, I didn't have much choices. But now that here, another I live in the United States, you know, getting a decent college education. This is where I have a voice to chart into whichever journey I want to go into. So I began to evolve in advocacy, with my community and with a Korean community over all over the US advocating for bills that would support democratic movement Burma. And not only I get to do that, but also getting returned back to coastal a current state and surveys, groups like environmental group key Sacher, environmental social action, and we'll group and also work with folks on the ground who are doing it crucial work, uphold the human rights and international law. So just getting reflected on that and having a voice of my own and not have a voice but can take action that is that could help the people of Burma, I find that very empowering and very uplifting.

Host  35:21

Yeah, I think absolutely that is. And you describe how one of the first things that you want to do when you were asked what you wanted to become, was in the resistance and being able to defend your villages, defend your people, that's, that's very tragic to hear. It also is very reasonable, considering what you had gone through and how you wanted to seek self preservation and really just wanting to punch a bully in the face and to be able to prevent against that aggression. It also makes me wonder, you know, your early life was so it was characterized by such victimhood on the part of the Burmese military, the Tramadol and then the Thai authorities, who administers the administer the refugee camps. And you I just can't imagine the how many incidences probably more than can be recalled more than one to be recalled and how many years of those incidences were characterized really by, by being under the sway of this bully and having to having in order to survive and to, to have some stability, being having to quiet oneself and just kind of do what was needed to survive while these aggressors had their way. And so this, this is some this is a pretty, pretty deep question personal you know, so, so answer as far as you feel comfortable, but to when I hear that, it just makes me wonder what I think about or to back up a moment when I think about my own life, which has been, you know, I have to acknowledge has been quite privileged in terms of what I've had to face and the challenges I've gone through. But when I think about some of the worst things that people have done to me, and some of the greatest anger I've had at perceived acts of injustice and ways that I've suffered unjustly and as I see it under the hands of this person's actions or this, it's definitely I have a lot of contempt towards that person, I have to work through and have to something I don't want to hold inside me I want to get over but you know, there's some things that have happened that are that are, I think, no matter who you are, what privilege you've had, you've gone through some experiences that have been painful and traumatic and, and feel wronged. And the experiences I've gone through that have harmed me the most are don't even hold a candle to what it's like having your village destroyed and people murdered and in an ethnic region of Myanmar or having to live in a refugee camp because of that, where then you have these Thai authorities that that are acting in another way. So even in some of the encounters, the unpleasant encounters I've had, I've had to really work at looking at that contempt and trying to let go of it and really holding on to that grudge, that anger and sometimes bordering into hatred and feeling that toxicity. And so I'm wondering for you with given the the depths of what you face, which are so far beyond anything I've encountered, and probably many of these listeners, how have you worked with that? What To what degree and as far as you're willing to share? Have you have you felt that that burning fire of hatred and contempt and to what degree and how and if have you worked to try to, to take that and transform it into something else?

Eh Nay Thaw  38:36

So my personal experience informed me of the stories of the elders, we're gonna say the story of the elder, it's the ancient Koran of currents, who have came, who have come before us that live between two great empire the Thai Empire, the Siam Thailand coming modern day called Thailand in Thailand, and then Burma, Burma, Italia, our historical enemies. And they are to ancient rivalry, who continued to invade each other territory, fight each other and try to occupy each other land territory right. From our current oral history and read history. The current folks who settle first in law of Burma prior to Burmese to modern day Burma, and the story that often be told is that the Korean who settled from the migrator from the Gobi Desert and Mongolia to modern day Tibet to Burma prior to other major ethnic resettlement in modern day Burma, and because if you look at the the location are where the current people are situated in entirely Western Thailand, Burma, Easter, Burma, Burma, we're also in the Delta era, we also have large population of Korea in the western southwest of Burma, right. And so the story that all elder toys are we have settled here first in this land, we call a koala. And as ethnic group we didn't need on dand build an army because it's the most peaceful land our ancestor have experienced. And so, however, later on Empire, follow and invade other land conquer other people. And because we happen to live before two major nation, Empire that commercial Empire, the Thailand Thailand, side of the Thailand Kingdom idea, the Burmese kingdom, we were our ancestor were caught in between two great arch enemies. And because of that they were used as slaves. They were persecuted it was used slave to build the two great empire mountain. And so the Qur'an having to live between the two nations have continued ongoing continuation under current persecution of the Korean and currently and the currently also consider the Korean two they will call the red Korean, the others subgroup of the Korean. And so the ongoing continuation and I'll push fusion between the by the Burmese regime and at the time. Military is what informed me of my past. So I learned the story of persecution, oppression, brutality on my ancestors through my own personal experience, because I myself notice, we lived in Burma, and modern day Burma, as native indigenous people have called the hilltribe people, and they have to flee to Thailand. And we know folks for talent cross back to Burma often right. And because of this, when it comes to the persecutions or victimhood of the Koran, I don't question that ancient story of people being persecuted. I don't question that Because personally, I went through it myself. And so yes, a lot of people through because of this experience, often end up joining a fierce resistance group and live their life to fight live their life to resist by any means. And so it makes sense. Right? Right. That the Korean, especially in the resistant territory, their whole life fight in the military, because all the storytellers that if we don't fight, they're gonna do the same thing to us. So because of this, I also held grudges and anger of the military, as a kid, and even like, I cannot hear the word peace. You're the author, which means the Burmese because we live in terror ethnic territory, we don't interact with Burmese civilian Burmese citizens. And the only Burmese we interact with or get to hear heard about is the military. And the image of the Burmese is not pretty. The Burmese military. The Pali job are presented the Burmese people, the Burmese civilians, and because we have really bad image of the Burmese people, and the word even the word Burmese itself, is it agonized by the crime because you know when we say Burmese, the Burmese military or the or the Burmese, of course, and so I grew up thinking that the Burmese are the bad guys. And because they are the bad guy, I cannot tolerate Burmese language. I cannot tolerate Burmese culture. I cannot tolerate even hearing the Burmese, or like all class Eva teaches Burmese class and as a kid, I was so angry at the school for teaching. I was so angry at the school for teaching or providing Burmese classes because we went away for the Burmese Why do we have to learn the Burmese right? Whereas all language are being removed from the system. Because of that, I did hell grudge As an anchor against the, the Burmese, the name Burmese on the idea of the concept of Burmese identity that's brought not only my personal experience, but also the people that around me. And I heard so many stories of people, our parents would allow the kid to speak Burmese because their personal experience far, far worse than us growing up in refugee camp. And so I, it was easy for me to let go of that anger or that grudges against another Burmese because of that personal experience until I came to the United States where through social studies, through church program through conflict resolutions program, many programs that I have attended teaches about reconciliation, about this case forgiveness in the church, about letting go of the past and moving forward. It takes it out. It took a long, long time until I learned that what the Burmese military did to us, the Burmese citizens and when people have nothing to do with it. Because they themselves are the victim of this patriarchal burm Burmese led military regime. And it took a long time, I would say to to convince my own self that Burmese people are not to be blamed. But the military junta, those in power, are to be blamed. And it wasn't easy. I went through conflict resolution program led by university, I study, I went to school to study government because that was my I want to understand why state go to war with its own people. And so I study state, I study political parties. I study conflict as a social study the issue between the civil rights movement, the conflict in South Africa. And so it was through serious academic study during that I learned to forgive myself, not to hold grudges anger against the perpetrator of my people and my personal family. And yeah, so even today. i The word Burmese when I go to media and Burmese is be used as the language even though the Korean are attended as the majority. I still it's still a trigger to me. And, and I have to be conscious, be aware that, you know, it's it's that these are the Burmese people are not the fault or not default, it is the military. So yeah, I would say that it was it was a long, long, long journey to be able to say that to be able to be where I'm at. Because, yeah, it wasn't that easy journey.

Host  48:16

Yeah, I can imagine. And thank you for sharing that so openly and vulnerably, about that inner journey and hearing that and, you know, it makes me think right now of what we've been talking about before this interview for the last several weeks of this idea of either a podcast series, or, or perhaps just a series of conversations between you and other ethnicities in Myanmar, as well as the wider diaspora that's exploring these issues, and it really brings to life and, and, and, and underlines how truly invaluable and important those kinds of conversations will be. Because as I hear you talking, you're describing this really terrible and gut wrenching inner journey combined with academic study and probably discourse and dialogue and maybe even spiritual practice and so many other things. That is bringing you to a kind of salvation of not hating of not hating, not just the specific people or organization meaning soldiers retirement other dependents for you, but hating the entire Bomar group that has has been responsible for this immense suffering that your people have gone through. And I, as I'm saying that the the one thing that just comes to mind in my own personal experience is coming from a Jewish family that lost our whole line of family in the Holocaust in Europe and being I was basically the third generation removed from that, you know, my grandparents actually lived through that and and, and experienced that loss and my mother was as a child growing up was born to that and then I was the next generation and so just seeing just being a part of that in My own family and seeing the and my grandparents were just such sanely remarkable, wonderful people, but they were not cool with Germans, you know, Germans as a nationality, and it was something that, that, that I would often push back as a younger person and kind of try to, you know, educate them on the importance of, of being able to, to, to not hold on to that and to see to, to, to be able to overcome that. And as the years went by, I began to realize that that was, as much as that might be nice to say, and to believe I simply hadn't lived what they had lived through. And so it wasn't quite my place to be telling them how they should feel about something, given the pain and trauma they went through. And, you know, and you're in that position of having gone through that pain and trauma, directly yourself and having experienced that suffering, directly yourself of being victimized by in your own life by this group of people. And so, even though the all Germans are not Nazis, and certainly Germans that are generations removed from Nazi Germany are certainly not Nazis. So also, Albemarle people are not in the tatmadaw, or supporters of the tatmadaw. That, you know, looking at greater complicity and and and passivity, those are, those are definitely things to look at. But this becomes a more a much more nuanced view. I mean, one just certainly cannot issue a blanket statement that that the Germans are Nazis, and that the Myanmar are communists, sympathizers, or apologists or whatnot, they're, they're certainly much more nuanced there. And so you're describing this, you know, this, this really rough inner journey that you had to go through to get to the other side, and to be able to find that sweet spot of balance, where you're able to use your strong voice to advocate for the rights of others to speak out against the wrongs and the hills and the evils of time and are doing to have that courage and self sacrifice and bravery and everything else, to be able to do that yet also, being careful with your speech, so that you're, you're you're speaking ethically and correctly and accurately and not Then taking your pain and having others suffer as a result by association. And that was something that you had to go through, there's all these ways through academic study through and a reflection through conversation with others, etc, etc. And that just kind of makes me think about the value of having these kinds of conversations the value of, of being able to reach out to people of other ethnicities, Bomar as well and among yourselves, who are all in this, you are directly involved in this country in society, which I am not, I'm an outsider, to be able to have that, that direct conversation, one just thinks about how powerful and impactful that is not just on a direct level of, of you in the gas store or a panel of people discussing, but especially for those listening for those outsiders like me, who can be educated, informed by it, as well as by so many people that are in some stage of that journey, some stage of that pain, that suffering and not knowing how to get to the other side and just hearing that as a model. So I guess the question I leave you with, with all this reflection is just kind of thinking about what what is the what what do you find is the state of many of that I know this is a very blanket question as so just go within and take it where you want based on your own experience of yourself and those you talk to. But if you could just characterize something of the basic state of what many different ethnicities Qur'an as well as, as whatever else you've come in contact with from Myanmar, that this process that they have to go through, and there's no guidebook there's no program, there's no real teacher, this process that that one has to go through to to not hate to be hauled to be complete. And yet still to advocate and to, to speak out for what's wrong and speak out, speak out against what's what's what's wrong. And and how, how do you envision or how do you see that, that there could be a light shone on this inner process and support given to this inner process because if we don't figure out a way to respond to or manage this process, effectively, it's just going to keep going on. There needs to be a resolution, there needs to be a way to talk and to explore and to come to center somehow, in being able to find this common ground share these experiences to open to listen through those difficult, painful sensitive areas. There needs to be a way to have those kinds of outer communication and conversations and inner reflections and contemplations to be able to come out of what is just a horrible sense of trauma. So as someone who's gone through that yourself on an individual level So what are your thoughts on what needs to happen or could happen to be able to help out in the process in local ways individually and communities and groups, with the hopes that that will lead to something much more on a whole society or community or nation that can have a transformative effect in what we hope is a post Tama Myanmar of rewriting the script in the history of what's been known since colonial times since Bomar Kingdom times? How can how can your own individual process and journey that you've taken, helped to educate you one and all of us on what can happen in something a bit broader and bigger to help in that process of others who are perhaps at different stages of the journey than you?

Eh Nay Thaw  55:43

Yes. So I don't think there is a roadmap to learning to forgive your former prosecutor. There's desert, there's no roadmap to allowing yourself to see your former perpetrator and say, I don't see you, as I used to see you. You know, there is no, there's no clear, clear or straight roadmap to that. And for me, like I said, it took me acid my whole life. To be able to stand where I'm at today, because of the transformative experience that I had throughout my, especially my during my college years. Prior to that, I did a learn about reconciliation and forgiveness and allow him to let go of past through spiritual practice, through churches through summer programs. So we're We had speakers, who went through the Vietnam War, were the the Americans were the enemies, right, I heard stories for others, who share the personal experience of reconciliation reconciling with the perpetrator. And there were a serious series of conversation, the engagement with these scholars and teachers, and also through reading, religious texture by text. And so that was a personal journey to learn to understand how one is able to move forward, let it go and be able to reconcile with a form or report enemies, right. And so for me, a turning point in my life was in 2015, when I returned back to Burma, there is strong contrast between the Burmese military and the Burmese people. And when I returned back to Burma, I was I went to their for an internship at Yangon. I taught English to high school and middle school students who came from all ethnic background. And it was in fact the most diverse group of people that have ever been with, we had to change we have kitchen student work a chain, chain students, we have Korea, Korean students, Korean, we also have Shan students, so and it was the most diverse group of people. And we are also my partner, my co teacher, was happened to be a Jew, too. And so have background in the Jewish community. And so we it was a look and reflect on that experience. And we decided to go on a trip on a field trip together. And we went to Burma Museum in Yangon. I'm not sure what the I believe it was the National Museum, right? And so we went to see very, the museum, the museum had portions of ethnic culture, symbols and clothes and whatnot. Right. And so it was Metaphorically speaking, some of us had complete different background and past. At the same time, we came together as a group of student who just want to learn the language English and explore the Burmese history while we shared different ethnic background, but what what I found healing in that experience of my two months experience teaching the language or English language to Burmese and other students was that engagement, through personal engagement through school through learning. And through, get it to expose ourselves to different people. What I, what I found that experience, meaningful and transformative was that I didn't see a Burmese or a chain or a chain, or currently, what I see was people just like you and I wanted to live in harmony want to live in peace and security, want to have a bright future for themselves and perhaps the future children right. And in for that English skill was essential to these folks. And so, I personally did not have the same image or thought as once had of the Burmese as I once did. And so through that field trip and to help throughout my whole two years, which I also get to travel to Shan State, and then to Patane, what I learned was that the people of Burma are very much similar to you and I, we are similar in so many ways this share a common humanity in our experience together, because they should brief period that this semi democratic government allowed us to, to have was so much meaningful. And to me, that was so transformative, just get it to converse with my Burmese or my chrony, or my chin counterpart. We even have Muslim students in our class, who have who came from a Western Burma. And so to me, that was such a meaningful interest, formative experience. And by having that experience, I did not see a race or ethnicity anymore. They're all as he was people just like you, me. We want to learn, want to learn. And we sing song together, we cook together, we eat together, and that experience alone, break that invincible wall that we often draw upon ourselves imposed upon ourselves when we order Burmese or Korean out. Chain, right. And so to me, that was a healing experience, transformative experience. That was the first time through that personal experience. My perceptions of the Burmese changed dramatically. Secondly, when I stayed in a youth hostel in the center of Yangon, not too far for Sula pagoda, and my hotel owner was a Burmese but employee were Korean. They grew up in Yangon speak mostly in Burmese with minimal Korean. But just the fact that my hoster was a Korean I, I fell in love, I fell in love with the city, Yangon, because of so many people that I never thought I will come across, I came across in that short brief amount of times. So to me that was engagement in formal, formal or informal, that was crucial in turning my turning point in my life of how I view the larger Burmese people. Secondly, also through series academic and intellectual studies where I learned about how to let go of the past and move forward with my more inclusive view of the Burmese society. And so what I have learned was this personal journey, if somebody who still hate others, based on their race or saying this ethnicity, it tells me is that that person, haven't healed him or herself yet that person still hold grudges because that person have not healed to heal his past trauma and experience. And so what it tells me is that that person still have room a space for to forgive him or herself. I learned to let go of my patch because I learned to forgive myself and I learned to forgive my former perpetrator. And it was that learning to learn and to understand more about my feeling my motion, its core, its good, was crucial to me Let go of past anger and hatred. And so it was, yeah, there's no roadmap for it, like I said it was, it's, it's a journey that ones have to go through alone. And one have to have to genuinely genuinely want to go through and learn from him and then come out as somebody who would want to see a brighter, brighter society for all others. And to me, it was a series series reflections, meditations, breathing, exercise, and reading, writing reflections and all that went, it's to me, it was some time it was a long journey. And when I came out of that some of my friends who speak of the Burmese in a very ill will, it tells me that yes, there is, it has nothing to do with the Burmese, maybe it does, from your past experience, from you know, the Burmese military, but also for that person, point of view wise. Understand that, within that person, they're still illness in that person. So yeah, that's how I became to understand how one anger can turn into conflict. So to me, it was that personal experience that alone to understand why conflict exists and why their space room has space for hope, reconciliation.

Host  1:06:33

Thanks for that. That's wonderful. That's really inspiring to hear about that journey you went on to get to where you are. Now, I'd like to turn now to your own community. We've been talking a bit about everyone else in the middle, the Burmese the military, the ties here in America, the other ethnicities and just concentrating better understand the current community. This is, of course, in their current community, it's divided by religion, there's Buddhists and Christians, there's many different political groups and armed groups associated with those political groups as well. And there are also different many different ethnicities and languages within the Korean community itself. And largely, unfortunately, tragically, because of the violence that's been perpetuated on them by the Burmese military. They, the Korean people are, are scattered are located all around, they don't have a there's not a real safe homeland that that they have at the moment. They're, of course in Myanmar and Thailand and the camps. And then there's this huge diaspora in places of course, Kentucky and especially Minneapolis, there's especially strong communities. So there, there's this this current identity of the the larger Korean community, but then this gets broken down in so many geographical and ethnic and religious, cultural, linguistic kinds of ways. So I wonder if you can just give us kind of a crash course in, you know what it means to be Cranford, maybe first by what it means to you to be Korean because you can only really respond to that statement with a real personal reflection of what your own Korean identity means. And then just going into the wider Korean community, and whatever you might like to educate or inform about this Korean community, what defines them and who they are? To an audience that might not be so familiar with them?

Eh Nay Thaw  1:08:27

Yes. So when it comes to division, it is a chronic long issue that they did, you can say, daily, prior to British colonization, when it comes to divisions amongst the Koran. It's prevalent, it's everywhere, and exist, practically everywhere you go. There's a current committee there is division. And you might want to ask, why is that why is that is the case and for me as somebody who be observing the division amongst the current current people, or easily can fork or susceptible to divisions, number one is because Korean folks highly value personal character, as a leader, say, somebody that have strong personal characteristic and that person, they put high trust into that person. So sort of identity politics where anyone that you deem that is closest to your values and your principal, that person you're more likely to align yourself with whereas that person is to have a different religion or to have a different principle or value step. easily can break down into faction. And the main reason that is because the current people often don't confront differences. And the differences are as simple as I don't like your red color shirt. We don't express it. Current people have ways of sugarcoating differences or disagreement by avoiding it. And it really in our culture that it can, it function, if there is number less than, say, average village, imagine there's like 50 or 100 it can, it can exist very cohesively it that that number can can allow space for cohesive but once that numbers of people become a little bit more diverse faction of people are vulnerable to factions, but to me as a Korean person, and this is where we have to get into the religion or the language or the the locations are where one lift, right we have get into that, because those are more reason to break people apart. But to me as a Korean person that we call ourself in our native language, Can y'all pull it means that can your is translated into simplicity, or in other words, minimal mistake that's in your poll is, can be a son or daughter or children. So in other words, in your poll, if you translate that, loosely, it's children of simplicity, children of minimal lipstick, right. To me, that's the identity that our hold true to myself that when a vision in your identity, I'd like to go back to why we call a second yopu. And Ken yopu, also the people the people in our language, we also call in your work in your it's as ethnic group, we call us up in your port, but for people human race, we call the self denial poor too. So it's kind of confusing, a little bit that we call people when you're poor, Korean people can your poor, and then Cebu people will call it when you're poor. And so the term Korean is quite misleading, in my opinion, because it loses the meaning of Kenyan poor. And you might wonder why the current people who often wants to live with the jungle want to move away from urbanized cities. This is routed back to our ancestors, where a lot of folks this move away from the city, from urban to the jungle to the hill. That's why we're not the hub tribe in Thailand, or the hill people in eastern current state of Burma, because the meaning that Korean people way of life is to live, simple to live in simplicity. And, believe it or not, if you as a lot of current people who live in the United States, especially the elders, they dream of returning back to calculate and live that simple life want to live as a hunter gatherer as if villagers as a rice farmer, because that's the way of current people. And to me, I value that identity of current people of Kenya poor because it really emphasizes on simply simplicity and minimal lism. And you look at the correct clothes, right? It's hand weaving the correct bags, it's very simple. It's just a simple bag. And then the correct people, we have life, right? It's dated, it's traced back to our identity as a group of people who migrate places to places to move away for city, urban or city just to live the way of the current people to live simple life. And that's what I hold dear to my heart that identity or current entity, but then because of colonialism, right? Where we have Christian missionary, we have Buddhist influence, we have Catholic influence, and then we have language, right? different language, different tribes and different tradition. This is why Korean people easily fall into a subgroup fractions. Tiny, tiny portion, you know, fall into that. And so, religion, the current people, often you say, in a, in a committee, there's 100, current person, current people, and there are three different groups, they fall into that group. And often when they fall into the group based on their religion, or their language, they don't associate they don't communicate, they don't build relationship with that different faith and they are I'm and why is that the case? Because I genuinely believe that Korean people don't have this concept of individuality, this pure concept of collective effort collective society. And so, if the leader of that community is somebody who is, let's say nationalistic, extreme, religious, or like, linked from a language perspective wise, if that person don't like the language permies or cigar Qur'an or poker ticker easily say we don't associate with you, we are not, we don't belong to you. So and because there is no sense of individuality in the current culture, the current identity, often, those who are interested in power, or in decision making, have so much influence to influence the whole group of people based on their religion, their faith, and their language. And that's why even here, my community, the way we gather around is not based on shared identity, but based off well based off our shared identity. But when we gather, we identify folks based on the church that they go to the temple that they go to. So for instance, when we had this at recent current year, the way we collect donation was okay, from this church group, we make this, this this much donated to the current committee for this tempo this much. So we don't go by individually, here we go by the church and the cooperation and the tempo. So that's why I think that our group of extremely susceptible division beta, because we, because we associate ourselves with folks we identify with based on religion, faith and language.

Host  1:16:55

Right, so that's a good kind of general description of, of this, this very amorphous and diverse current community and can be broken down into many different ways. And also where, where you personally stand on an individual level of that, looking at broadening this question to a more historical angle, or perhaps moving up the historical trajectory to looking at the last couple years, and certainly the last 20 years. I, you're, you're describing kind of a static nature of, of this very diverse community. But of course, you have all this extraordinary diversity in all the ways that we've outlined. And then you have this timeline of really traumatic and unstable events that have probably further destabilize them. I mean, the fall of manna plot is a key moment well, and before that, what preceded that the the Buddhist, Christian split within the Koran, followed by the fall of Manipur, ah, that was a really pivotal moment in current history that has been really a watershed in terms of what's come since and what's happened to the community. And then, of course, you have the coup of last two years and what's been happening with the Korean resistance to it, you have the resistance taking on many forms, of course, the Korean that are, that are that are that are still in the country, those that are in the border regions, those that are all over the West in the diaspora. And then you have the divergence between the the current elders and more of like the youthful Generation Z. And so these are a lot of different forces at play, that have been responding to these tumultuous events that have taken place. And that's probably further shift, you know, this destabilization has, I would imagine, has very likely taken the current community and, and pose more challenges in terms of what this identity is who they are at their core, what they're striving for. This is very different than the natural changes that a community might go through when they're living in the same soil. And they're, you know, they're, they're in the same region, whatever they're going through, they're the physical place that they're, where they live, that's something that stays constant with the credit people, you don't have these constants, and you still have these really dramatic, profound events taking place that are impacting them. So taking this definition that you've provided of this overview of what it means to be current and who these current who the Korean community is around the world, in these different pockets. However, how would you say the last 20 years and in the last two years have impacted who the current community are, how they're in what ways they're responding where some of the splits and divergences are happening? And I know that's that's an incredibly broad question. I mean, this is a question that could be the subject of a whole podcast itself a whole podcast series itself of how many places to go but just to take that question and its face value now and answer with whatever first comes to mind of, of how would you Describe the Korean community changing and adjusting with these big events that have happened more recently.

Eh Nay Thaw  1:20:07

Yes. So reflecting on the past 20 years, I think that the the Korean, especially in the border between Thailand, Burma, largely almost remained the same. In terms of carrying out political campaigns or resistance, resist in the military, it somewhat remained relatively the same in terms of tactics and in terms of, of cooperation and collaborated with others. I want to argue that because if you look at the from the leadership point of view, right, the leader of the Korean national union, largely remains older men who are still grew up and lived mostly in the resistance territory. And so in terms of structural wise, or carry out the political resistance against the military, I haven't seen much differences, right, even though the can you continue to advocate to campaign for a federal democracy, right? Things haven't changed much. If you look at the leadership, and the current positions, especially the DOS style, or in crucial positions in the Keanu a few of them are lifelong, call it politician. And that's the whole life is doing, what you're doing is continuing to work in the resistance movement with a similar approach. The The only difference I have seen is that the difference I have seen in the resistance movement, largely in the current Thai Burma border, is that the Burmese students, Burmese, democratic activist joining them, and they allowed them to serve under the care new candidate, they can. Groups, right. And so in terms of strategy and political power, largely remained the same. But another force that that becoming an influential force is the diaspora, which we have seen in prior to the resettlement of the current refugees here in the United States or to other European or Australia. states. And so the diaspora on the other hand, or largely led by more, we say college graduated, youth, young adults, and the influence that this individual or this community of these people carry out is about its financial, financial played a huge part in the the movement, the resistance movement. And so the, the dashboard, on the other hand, you know, with US currency, and dollar currency compared to the, the Myanmar chat, it's very strong and so, international transactions of financial, why supporting the resistance movement, there is some sort of influence there is a power of influence played by the diaspora movement. And it's not played much into politics because the can you leaders are very hardcore, traditional traditions, elders who are in charge, but what the diaspora are able to play to influence the resistant movies to support the armed resistance, even though they do not. In principle, the K current National Liberation Army the armed groups have the key nuclear National Union function under the GNU how ever because they can use especially during the two days of 15 nationwide ceasefire, there's two factions that broke away. And so the can you leaders that are more less likely to abide by nature vices per five principle, or the armed groups that do not sign the ceasefire. receive more assistance financially from the diaspora community. And because of financial assistance, of course, this plays a huge role in the morale of the resistance movement is resistant groups and also munitions and on acquisitions. Why it's a huge growing that. And it's becoming the resistance movement becoming a stronger force in many ways, in terms of military armed support, because, obviously, money you can do so much with money that is being cherished for internationally. Right. And so that level of power play by the diaspora is, we started to see a lot of impact that he had across the Thai Burma border, as well as the international humanitarian aid wise. In the past, we have seen a lot of, we will not see a lot in the past a lot of humanitarian assistance or be carried out by United Nations program or other NGOs. But recently, since the coup, a lot of humanitarian campaigns are carried out by the diaspora who returns and use the financial strength to do the work that in the past, NGOs or United Nations program carry out. So that's one of the larger trends that I have been observing in terms of unity wise, I, I almost remained the same, if not, it actually fall into two different faction, now you have the supporter of the traditional, can you ungroup, the tnla. And now you have another group of another group called the The fully army a group that breakaway recently from the ken la led by this man named Noah Dalmia. And this group is very much hard, core nationalist, they have no influenced by the the larger Burmese politics. So they operate and function across the Thai Burma border. And they have large supporter of Thailand, and here in the US, as well. And so especially a time where we should be more unify, when the larger movement is to resist and top down the military regime, we'll also seen a once again and again, faction breakaway faction, regular faction. And this is not unique in the current history, when it comes to have a unified group. And so if you ask me, my personal observations and of the current group of still I have not seen significant progress in unifying the current groups, however, I'm seeing a lot of unity, unity amongst the democratic activist and other armed groups that are fighting the military. I'm seeing a lot of you know, unity with the Koran and the Burmese and the larger ethnic groups that are unifying in their common goal to resist and public health, the military regime, whether they could do that or not, it's remained on unknown, but that larger movement is quite a mega trend. And the movement to build and establish a Federal Democratic state is becoming widely accepted among the democratic activist organizations and society.

Host  1:29:14

Right. Yeah, that makes sense. I am looking also at this the the question of divisions and unity and everything among just the current people to stick with that. I was at a previous podcast interview with Jesse from the urban village actually the of course, the mutual friend that that that hooked us up and introduced us to each other. And as he was breaking down some of the the Korean response to the current situation, he described a real sharp division between some of the younger generation Z and the elders and the way he described it really seemed to transcend geographically where he was talking whether it was here the border regions, refugee camps, or actually in Burma. He was describing an elderly integration that has long played at a zero sum game. And that had long histories and memories of mistrust among the Braemar and perhaps other ethnicities, and that they were based on those past experiences, they really felt that they are continuing on a struggle that was even even pre World War Two of the current people wanting to have greater autonomy and independence, perhaps even their own state, or certainly some kind of special status. Whereas the young generation, generation Z, wherever they were located, were, by and large, much more believing in the ideals of federal democracy, believing that if if every individual group is just trying to seek their own greater favor and greater protection, that is not going to be strong enough to hold up the whole structure. And it needs to be a society that's fair and equitable to all, not only the main ethnicities in the bar, but also the Rohingya, also the Muslims, also the LGBT community, and, etc, etc, that that there needed to be these wider protections. If if one person is not free, then everyone's not free, that kind of mentality, whereas the elder generation saw this with a greater institutional memory, he saw this as a bit naive, and, and and were acting were responding based on things they had experienced the young generation not. And so Jesse really described this whole dynamic, very interestingly, very nuanced, and just talking about the how it both members of both generations how things made sense to them, where they were coming from, given their responses and how they were they were seeking these kinds of conversations and, and understandings, but that's sometimes it was a bit hard and a bit tense. And so when you're looking at this Krenn response, where what have you seen along the lines of what Jesse's described of the the older generation, who's coming with a bit more skepticism in the younger generation, that's coming with a bit more idealism towards federal democracy?

Eh Nay Thaw  1:32:02

Yeah, and I agree with Jesse assessment of the, his observation of the divisions and the mistrust between the elder generations, and then the Gen Z, or, in this case, right. And I think the core of that is that a lot of Gen Z, or the, the younger generations have lived in society where there's rule of laws, right, because there's rule of laws, especially here in the diaspora community, a allow you to interact with people a different color and different language at rates, and it is nice the to live in relatively peaceful society. And because of that, there is little room for skepticism, and little room for, and there's no, there's more room for hope for society, because we have lived through a more diverse society where regardless of your religion, your identity, you can live, you can coexist it with different other, right, you just need a strong rule of law. Whereas the elder who came from a place where there's no rule of law, where it's a zero sum game where they are the strongest or the most fierce hold power, yes, it makes sense to them that mistrust is common. And not trusting those that speak different language that you are is common, and through their own personal experience, because this is to them. It's a repeating historical account, when the students, the Gen Z fled to the say, the resistance or territory right and requesting to take up arms and to fight the military, central government. They themselves have seen this in the past, right in 88, when there was widespread a widespread protest against the military, right. Same thing the military, the students fled across, fled to the territory held by ethnic Korean groups and as a result of accepting these groups, some are used use some infiltrated by the military intelligence and they use that to undermine the resistance movement. You know, the fall of man deplore was when the military intelligence able to infiltrate the the religious institutions and establish their own religious figure to influence decision making do influence politics and to instigate divisions, right. They see this in the past, and when they experience Is this again, they believe it's going to repeat itself again, when the resistance movement or get a tire where they ran out, and when they run dry, they are seeing they are predicted that it's going to be the same thing where students going to lay down their arms and return back to the city life and live their life as they once did. And to them. That's what they are believed that's what they truly believe. And they also believe that amongst the resistance fighters, they are Burmese intelligence everywhere, the minute the military intelligence everywhere. And because of that, yes, they have reason to be skeptical, to have the reason to mistress. And they have reason, and I am not going to sit here and say that that's that is we should move over this right? I'm not gonna say because I haven't been in deposition, I didn't live in the land where, guys, people with guns her whole power, or execute the the law in this case. So I'm not going to make that statement. But I agreed that the larger older generation tend to be more skeptical. Whereas the tend to be more skeptical of this idea of federal system where we share equal power and decentralized power. Where the younger generations hope for more federal union where we can all coexist and live in harmony. And I think that, that the two differences is based off experience, based on personal experience personal from where they are brought up. And it makes sense to me, and even me to even advocate for the Federal democratic system. Folks around me, especially other youth teenager who have brought up and live within this community who haven't been exposed to outside of the community, quite think I'm naive and foolish to believe that federal democratic system is possible for future Burma. And I don't blame them. It's based off our personal experience based off or exposure to differences, ideas, race, ethnicity, and even our education background to it influence who we are as for, for that, and yeah, I totally agree with that assessment of destiny.

Host  1:37:44

Right. Another thing I'm wondering about is that you, you because of your story and your background, you've personally been involved with this all your life, I mean, it would be impossible not to write just given the given what you've lived through and, and what you face this, this has really been your struggle and your cause and something that's that has been front and central in every aspect of your life on a personal level, community level and much wider societal and national level during the transition period. i Well, it's interesting, some of the people I've interviewed on insight Myanmar podcast that some of them have fallen into a category of really having their political consciousness go off on the morning of February 1 2021, that they they suddenly realized what was going on and what was at stake and that that revolutionized them that awaken their political consciousness. Other people such as yourself, I've spoken to and even during the transition period, they were very skeptical, very expressing concerns still trying to advocate for, for things that weren't necessarily being looked at. And for that group of people, which you definitely fall in the cool was not so much like a shocking wake up call that galvanized into action. But it was really just a dramatic step along the path that one was already on and that and, and that activism and advocacy and work that was already there. This just kind of kicked everything into high gear. But this was not something that was awoken or initiated initiated. This was something that had been building for a long time since and just this just took on a new level. And I think with that the for someone like yourself, you have, you definitely have something of a perspective that those that were galvanized to action don't that that were doing their own thing before just living trying to live somewhat of a normal life with their own dreams. And then suddenly they find themselves sacrificing everything and trying to resist a violent military coup. It's really a kind of a shocking turn of events for so many that fall into that situation but for yourself again, like you were this is something that you live through and then professionally personally in your own life, something you've been doing consistently to At this point and so, to ask you the question of what are you seeing now? That's different? What? How are you understanding this current moment? What are your hopes? What are your fears? How is? How was what's taking shape today? Different from or maybe similar to what's happened before? How is it? What? What is the trajectory of what you're seeing? And what hopes and fears? Do you have anything associated with that? Because you have more of an institutional history and a personal history, you're able to respond with this greater perspective of what this current moment means with what's come before it and, and behind it, that others that were that were really awoken on that fateful day, have not had. So what have been your thoughts and seen how these nearly two years have transpired? What has surprised you? What encourages you what concerns you have? And where were where are we at now in terms of the resistance and democracy movement? And what is it going to take to be able to continue to progress

Eh Nay Thaw  1:41:00

yet, so prior to the military coup, during the short period of relatively peaceful period transition period, there were despite the nationwide ceasefire agreement, and despite the quasi civilian democratic led government, there were still signs of military continuing to conduct persecution to get at the minority and continue to violate international law. And if you as ethnic Rand, of course, we pay attention to what's happening to the Kofu lay current state. So we see and continuing as a violation violations of the nationwide ceasefire agreement when the Military Cross over to demo, more territory that will agree and then not only that continued to kill the prominent environmentalist and civilians and armed fight erupted in there. And not only that, they continued to build infrastructure and for military campaigns deeper into the Korean territory. This stuff we observe, and see in broad daylight. But folks that or in the central, you say Django or central in the core regions are aware of this, because we know that the military continued to carry out disinformation campaign and continue to build narrative of they're the one that is holding the the country from fall into separated state and one out right. And the continued ongoing of human rights violation across ethnic areas are not talked about in the mainstream news or media's. And even when we remember having conversation with the State Department, especially with the ambassador Yang, in I'm not going to name him, because the narrative and this the ideas and the sense I get from him is that, yes, it's a it's time of relatively transitioning period. And so they, despite us raising concerns of human rights violation going on across ethnic territory, and you know, the destructions, of environmental and mineral extractions that led to serve villages, but not be able to live on the property, the land and you know, ongoing destructions of houses and villages. The essence I get from State Department and the embassy, the ambassador was that we are in transitional period, it will take more time, please be patient, ongoing coffee will happen. But it's going to change. That's the sense I get. And as somebody who spoke on behalf of the victims of ongoing quote unquote, development period. I was very, I was very, very upset with how my representative State Department as American citizens were viewing and seeing this period. And of course, they disregarded the discourage the ethnic Korean current national union group form discouraged from continuing to cut down on conflict and come to the table and have peaceful negotiation with them. Military. So I was very upset that I happened and we continue to raise here's reflects us reflect and then into the 17. Right. And mid summer 2017. There were Myanmar break international new when a prosecuted and forced over millions of Rohingya across the border to Bangladesh, and that this was a huge red flag. And even that this happened in broad daylight. It happens when millions of people of Burma have to flee because they identify Ranger. Still, the common people in Burma still believe that Rohingya do not belong in Burma, they are native to Burma. And so that is the whole reason why, even on suncity herself refused to acknowledge that they were trashed in, and genocide was happening and continued to defend the military, right. And so, and her political approach was that if I had C, stand against the military and advocate on behalf of the Rohingya, we know that the the citizens, the Burmese citizens will be be divided and purge might not even vote for the NLD a party and they fear that by perhaps speaking for the Rohingya might cause them a victory in the upcoming election. And because of this political calculations, and majority Burmese stands on issues, me as ethnic person who are a pay attention to issue going on around ethnic peripheral in the peripheral, we'd be raising issue as such for a long, long time. And here again, until it comes to your front door matters, that or you think that far away from you, will be far away for you. And then of course, until the coop and military started to come down knocking on everyone's door and kicking and brutalizing its own citizens. That's when the people wake up and start to see the tragedy and the brutality of this military. And we are even seeing that the people of Burma apologized to social media and through so many platforms, acknowledging that they were at fault for not standing up for the reinjure when this happened. And so for me, I like you said, it was not a shock that the military coup occur, it was almost like deja vu. And despite the military coup, the war in the current state will continue to happen, it will happen for a long time. And the war in kitchen, the chainstay in what cancer will continue to happen will happen for a long time, even we may have come to a conclusion where the military can see some sort of power, perhaps in the future and allowed some sort of concede some sort of may some concession the war ethnic groups, ethnic minority will continue to happen. So that's my that's my, that's things that I foresee, that I believe will continue to happen, until, of course, the whole country, and which which is what we're seeing right now, the whole country stood up for everybody if one is attack, or the attack, if we don't have this mentality that we are all to get in this together stand against a brutal, misogynist, patriarchal and Burma's premises military regime, we won't see much change in the country as a whole.

Host  1:48:57

Right, right. That's a great overview. As we're nearing the end of our discussion for this episode, I realized that we haven't shifted over into what you're doing now in Kentucky, I understand that through your work there, you're continuing in a professional role. You're serving the the diaspora community, and they've been doing that before the coup since the coup, I'm sure that that his work has been quite transformed. I also understand that you've led entire protests in the united states and Washington, DC and Minneapolis. So if you could take some time to share about what your life is like there in Kentucky, what the what kind of diaspora exists there and communities and then simply what you have, in your capacity in your role, what what you're doing now and what you've been doing.

Eh Nay Thaw  1:49:46

Yeah, so in my professional role here in Kentucky, I work as a refugee resettlement caseworker, so I help folks from other countries who settle here in the United States and get accustomed to the United States, I helped them by seeking and acquiring and securing social benefit to newly arrived refugees, help them with time to time, communicate between a government agency, and then the local community organization, and sort of providing additional resource to the refugees newly arrived refugees. That's one professional work. My other unpaid professional, which occupy majority of my time is advocate for the, for the issue in Burma, advocate for human rights in Burma. And so I remember before the coup, there were military campaigns or military attacks against the ethnic groups, which led to hundreds of the current being displaced, become internally displaced. We went to a protest in Washington DC, we led a protest. And we protest again, we protest at the embassy. And we did not have anyone for a Burmese counterpart join us. Majority of us were the current and we have few chin, a few kitchen. And we the protests were covered by Radio Free Asian. But the protest was I helped organize the protest led the protests, and it was relatively small number because the issue was not emerging in the agenda or the front page of the news or anything like that. So understand that our Burmese counterpart might not join us at that time. And yeah, this is the the historical, fortunately, historical experience of us when we experience a atrocity and our Burmese counterparts are not going to same are explained the same thing. We understand that they weren't part of the protest. Then two months later, we also organize another protest or January, February 7. And, and the coup happened on February 1. February 7 is when we organize the project where we went to there. We did see we went to protest, mostly the current people. But there were a couple of Burmese who came to join the protest. But at the time they came to protest. They carry a wide big picture of Aung San su chi. And so we were, I guess, a little bit out of my way. And so I will I did not allow the those individual to join us because we I remember not too long ago, just two months ago, we protest against the NLD government for their silence on the atrocity going on in the current state and it Rohingya in Rakhine State. So then, that protest was mostly the Qur'an or number was relatively low. But once the coop took off in February, February 1, and a few days later, we led another protest in Washington DC on March. And that was the largest protest organized by the diaspora population both or the Burmese the chain, the chain, everybody joined hand in hand. And that was perhaps one of the largest Burmese Qur'an at other Ghana diaspora protests, perhaps in Washington, DC. And that was just one of the few protests we had led where we had a Burmese counterpart join us all together in unity. And so there was some that gave us some sort of hope that, that the that what we had experienced the our Burmese counterpart experience it currently. And there we held another protest, multi ethnic protesting in the middle Indianapolis, sorry, Minneapolis, St. Paul. And that was another pivotal point in a unity where, regardless of ethnicity, we're about to come together and held the protest at the Minnesota Capitol. And so these events, just tell me again, again and again confirmed my my observations of Burma politics that, you know, a less issue come at the front door, we'll see seeing that our other counterpart, Burmese counterpart are coming and joined hand in hand until a major event as the coup happened. And so what we're seeing now is that yes, there is a common ground that this military regime they have to go and there's no question in that they have to go and so because of this common mentality common law desire were able to come together. But this is not a recipe for the future of Burma. This is just the first approach of combat military regime as such, and so long way to go. event, you know, federal democracy charter was outlined was provided by the N ug still what that implication look is long way wait for his way to go. So while I'm I'm optimistic I'm optimistic I'm cautiously optimistic about the future of Burma,

Host  1:55:36

aren't we all are we all at this moment, it's definitely a an interesting time that we're all living through and really hope that we can get through this to see a future that could really rewrite the history of anything that's existed, not just in Myanmar, but that in that whole region. And it's just, it's brilliant, what the sacrifices of that so many people are making what they're working towards, to try to create and that vision and one can only hope that they're able to forge that path. And each one of us, you, me, listeners, people out there all have their part to play in trying to do that little bit to add it to that right direction and continue following and supporting what's been going on. So with that, before we close, is there anything else you'd like to say that I didn't ask or something you'd like to bring up? Before we end the discussion?

Eh Nay Thaw  1:56:28

Yeah, I just want to say thank you for providing this platform for are all of us who are from Burma, who genuinely, dearly love the country of our birth, the country that never experienced, genuine democracy. And this is this country, I know, the people are resilient, people are strong, the people are kind and genuine. And during that short period, where we were able to experience a bit of interaction, engagement and, and cooperation with one another, we made major progress. However, long way to go because there's military ripped, and stripped away the dream and hope of the people of Burma. And so all of us who are sharing our voice in this platform, get to share the sight of our experience and our thought and observation. So just want to say thank you for this platform. And I hope that in the future, we're able to join each other in Hanahan in person can talk about the better side of Burma, where the military or not in the discussion.

Host  1:57:55

Told me Oh, Tommy Oh.

1:58:13

Join me

Host  1:58:19

up. Many of you are quite familiar with our nonprofit that are Burma, which was formed in the weeks following the military coup and carries out humanitarian missions around the country. But did you know that we also have a shop that carries handicrafts sourced from artists and communities throughout Myanmar, we take great pride in all of our products being 100% Myanmar made from the materials to the design to the workmanship from the Thanakha artfully incorporated on the dolls faces to the cats and frogs wearing scarves made of traditional lungi fabric. They all clearly show they were made in the golden land. So your gift will bring a little bit of authentic Myanmar into the home of its recipient. And even if just a little will help keep the people and culture alive in our hearts. And most importantly, your purchase will not only support the livelihood of the artisans, but also help fund our wider humanitarian and media missions. Please take a moment to visit our shop at a local crafts.com That's a loca A L Okay, a crafts C R A F T S one word.com. Of course, as is your preference. You can also consider making a donation through our normal channels. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup. We welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and media missions, aiding those local communities you need to post donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns under coverage limitless refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives, the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by a nonprofit mission that or Burma. Any donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fun. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts for email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r v urma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at a local crafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spilled a l o ke crafts one word a local crafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.