Transcript: Episode #153: Tears Matter (Bonus Shorts)
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Rahel and Damon Lim. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:10
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01:09
Ha, ha ha ha, ha, that is not a good day, today at least
01:28
for you.
Host 01:43
I'm happy to be joined today on this episode of Inside Myanmar podcast with Roy Hill and Damon Lim. And we're going to be telling a story that spans different continents and countries including obviously, Myanmar, Hong Kong, and Europe and how this all comes together through the medium of art. And we'll get into that story in just a moment. So for you guys, thanks for joining us and having a bit of a chat here.
Rahel Lim 02:08
Yeah. Thanks for inviting us. Thank you.
Host 02:13
Yeah, so we I know that eventually we want to get a bit into Daymond story as a Hong Kong artist and some of the experiences he had that are similar to what some Burmese artists are going through now. But before we get to that, I think it's it's it's quite valuable to hear their story and what they've done in Switzerland, where they are now, I should mention that the fuller story in the more details of this is shared already by Rahel on on our podcast, it's a very good conversation about her background, and what led her to do the project that they were doing. And so we'll be talking about that in a bit broadly here before moving on to Damon story. And so suggest listeners who want to hear the full story to tune in there. But to get caught up to speed for those who have never heard of you or don't know anything about the project that you just did. Can you give us some some of your personal background and then tell us what project you did and why you did it.
Rahel Lim 03:08
So, um, my name, as you already said, is Rahel and the minister my husband and 2015 We found a cup of color with the goal to bring art to places where there is brokenness where a some kind of different struggles. And we started actually, the work started with painting in a red light district with a woman they got sold in the average of 10 years old in Kolkata, in the best West Bengal. And so for years, what we did is like we painted walls with people, they went through very difficult situations. And we painted the walls in their community to give signs of hope and of life. So that they see everyday when they wake up or when they walk through the streets, that they see something that encourage them to go on. And encourage them to, to not give up and to have a smile on their face, especially as everyone was a part of painting these walls, right. It was always like, what is the sign of hope and what, how can we express it? And then it happened, the whole story with Hong Kong happened and the demonstrations and it turns our life totally upside down because the win is from Hong Kong, even though we were already in Switzerland, which was not kind of we didn't we went to Switzerland in the hope of like we go to Switzerland, then we will go back to Hong Kong. And then everything started and Daymond started to protest out. And this influenced our whole family. Like it was not I mean, it was his pain, but it was also also our home. It's like we live together with his parents. Their parents became my parents, my mom and dad. Hong Kong is like our home for our children. It's like it's their home. They see themselves as Hong Kong. And suddenly, we had war all the time in our house, even though we lived in Switzerland, and no one saw it. It's like the silence like you carried in you all the pictures, all the images, you you get messages from friends you don't know, like, surrounded by police, you don't know what happened to them, you are here in a holy world, but at the same time in yourself, there is war and in the house, there is war. And there was such a devastated experience. And I think for for both of us, it was very, very difficult. And I mean, I am not a Hong Kong woman. So I felt almost guilty to be so inside. At the same time, I sometimes feel so felt so angry that it's all the time here. And at the same time I, I was worrying all the time. So it's this confusion of feelings and, and our kids, they were crying. I remember our smallest daughter, she wrote a letter to a friend of us. And in this letter she wrote, you told me that I should dream big. Can you please bring me to Hong Kong? And this friend wrote me and said, You know what your daughter asked me? And they said, not really actually. And she wrote in the letter, I will pay. I think my parents can pay for my flight. But us you have to pay by yourself. And I would always just say it was seven years old at that time or six, I can't remember exactly. As it says. And it really shows you know how deep this wish to go back and see grandparents wars are easy in our kids lives. At the same time. We don't know. If we can go back. We don't know, what is the consequences. We don't know what happened. We just no one can tell us. So in this time, going through all these feelings, we start to ask ourself, how does other people experienced this who are away from their home? Who had to flee or not? Or like we're already away? And then something happened? How do they experience and how are they? And I mean, we worked a lot with refugees. But this was suddenly that the topic of home became very different. And it totally changed. And it was so comforting when people asked me how is Hong Kong, even I, even though it was 1000 times the same story, but it was so helpful to to have places where we could talk about it. And so last year, in summer, we got this message from raise three fingers, if you could paint the wall for them. And for us, it was really like, for sure this is like let's paint a wall like you know, if raise your fingers if if the sign. And then in the whole process of our own process of dealing with all the painful images and all the traumatic experience we had, and all these, these memories and stories and films we saw and all in our, our mindset, we started to ask, what can we actually do to heal our own trauma, and also help others. And when this call came? Suddenly, we talked about it Daymond me and we said what would happen if we would paint actually a wailing wall? Not not just an awareness wall, but really a wall where people can just express their pain and put down what is they carry inside. And so then we went actually to an organization to ask if they would help us to do this because we have no money. And we didn't have a while. But this didn't happen. It was they were not open for it. And so we said let's search by herself. And then the first and then the same situation happened with Afghanistan. And we have brothers and sisters from Afghanistan. So we were like okay, let's do a wall for them first. And then we made this moral for Afghanistan where we invited the community to express their pain. And to be very honest, we would have loved to do it for our own home. But it's so difficult to do something for Hong Kong in a way of like you have a very the fear of China on the back of a square peg so we were like yeah, we're not able to couldn't yet doing it. So then we did it for Hong Kong and then we started to search one for Myanmar. And I cannot tell you how, like it is a crazy miracle that we found a wall in limits of Zurich to do this. It's like I don't know maybe it was the right time the right people. It was Crazy we, we never expected it, we never, we were just asking around. And in retro perspective, now, I'm searching for a wall again, it is so headache and difficult and I don't even know. And it just opened and it was possible. And then we as soon as we hit the wall, we just started to contact, different organization over the internet, the Swiss at the Aspera, from Myanmar, and asked if they want to express their pain on this phone, and people send us 260 messages in two weeks really like one after the other. And we painted them on the wall for them. Yeah, this is what we did, as a wall. And then we made a film about it, which is now which might be also shown in a human rights festival, hopefully. And for us, it was really about giving, giving a voice in a very dark time and helping a little to release the pain and the trauma so that we have a space where our pain is seen and that we are not alone with it. And I honestly I would dream of having a that's my dream. And I'm at the moment. I'm keep sinking about. But I really would like to have a huge, so if anyone listened and has an idea, or knows, I don't know. But I would love to have a very long, huge wall and any drop like painting woman from Sudan, Myanmar Iran, Syria and so on. And then to really have a Wall of Pain voices have forgotten places, you know, of places that they are not at. I mean, Iran is not forgotten. But so there I would question but right, Sudan, Maria Maria not not seen, and I would like to have a role where you would see this cry together, that it's not just one country, and it's not just a small place. There are many. And then yeah. Let's hope and pray. And let's see, but I don't know it will be a miracle. And I, so far, I couldn't get through it.
Host 12:24
So for those listeners that want to take the time to go on your Instagram or look at your at the documentary, you can see some of the see what the wall looks like visually. But for those listeners who are just in the process of listening now and maybe they'll get to that later, can you describe some of the images that one up on that wall?
Rahel Lim 12:44
So it was the picture shows a woman holding up the free thing, right as a free thing is the Cheshire and it's a woman who is mourning, or where her last family member who got killed. And we specially used a woman that it's not a well known woman, because we wanted that it's assigned for many, because mothers and carry the pain all over. And then in her clothes, there are all the pictures that people send us. So there is like messages like a mom, I miss you or like a
Damon Lim 13:28
dozen, some sketches, drawings, paintings, and also some sentences in their own language in Burmese, or in English, poems, and letters. So there's a different form of texts and images that people send us as a submission and then we, we, we paint it for them on the wall.
Rahel Lim 13:56
Yeah, so there is for example, like this one of the poem is like, inside the prison, I meet my country, or there is also some of the people they got killed in the beginning. Or there is like a woman with tears, or someone praying. There's also two people like behind the prison
Damon Lim 14:17
of your fallen angels, those people they they passed away during the protests or
Rahel Lim 14:24
Yeah, and there's also in a poems in Burmese, but also in English. Some symbol of the country some food symbols, like you see the food of my mom.
Damon Lim 14:38
And we especially named this this wall mural. Tears matter. Because we want to talk about here matters very much that we need to give a space give a place for the people to name their pain, to place their suffering, those frustration especially I think a lot of these emotions, the traumatic experience is still not soft. And I will say it's doing a lot of tough process. For other people, they experienced the loss of the family or the loss of their home. And so I think this is another kind of transformation of the sadness, and helplessness.
Host 15:34
Right, and I think what's interesting looking at it, what you've created is, first of all, it's hard to get Myanmar on to, to bring awareness to international community, it's something that all of us who really care about, know, it's very hard to bring this. And then if you are able to break out and actually reach new audiences and create greater engagement, it's so temporary, it's something that is, is just kind of a flicker. And then it's a moment on the social media feed or international headline, or even some event or show or, you know, I come on our side, our nonprofit is done. We managed to show paintings from Myanmar artists, and a New York City Gallery that was offered to us last year. It's wonderful, it's beautiful, but it was just a few days in length, it was it was just a moment in time that someone got to see and experience this. But all that matters, all that counts. But I think you've created something a bit more lasting. It's not just a temporary event, however powerful, but it's something that that is going to remain. And that is not just going to go up and be appreciated, and then move on. But it's going to be there. And so with that in mind, I just I wonder if like, in a very small way, if you found this is becoming something of like a pilgrimage site of like, for allies and Burmese themselves who are somewhat in the area, not that someone's going to fly across the world to come and see it. But if someone's kind of nearby, if if you find that people from different communities are coming to want to see it and take pictures and kind of visited I know for myself, if I was anywhere in your neck of the woods, I would definitely want to make a trip to see it and get pictures and kind of feel what was done. So since you've put this up, have you what have you noticed about the reception of of who's coming in and how they're coming and how they're experiencing it?
Rahel Lim 17:19
We get sometimes people will make photos I mean, there is this right there is this influencers who go around and making photos of walls, street art. And then when they and so they making photos of it, and then they write about Myanmar even they will never write about it. Which I think it's actually really good. So other people hear about it, they never heard about it. And this always moves me because I think then more people take the world word Myanmar in their mouth, then more it is here. Like there's a really nice, there's my favorite book, he calls I will never see the world again, is from a Turkish writer who was in the prison, actually, he was lifelong sentence. But he finally came out. And he wrote a book in a prison. And he said that every he said, like I am alive, or I live outside because everyone who use my words, he like helped me to travel around the world. So when people speak about me, I am alive. And I think the same is with with this wall when people speak about the wall when they speak about me or not only about this, but basically whatever we do, right, but when people speak about Myanmar, when they speak about the pain they read, or what they saw, then this country is alive. It travels around, it's mentioned and it has a space. But if no one speaks about it anymore, it's dead. And so this was actually one important point about it. Let's make something that people speak about it. So this is what we noticed. We also noticed that so Myanmar people would when they travel to Zurich, they will go and look at it, which is and they're always really really happy. And many people say when they stand in front, it's actually very impressive.
Damon Lim 19:18
Having one first strong, a common is is a Swiss person. And then he mentioned that he he actually didn't have much relationship to Myanmar Burma, or anything about this country, but when he stand in front of the war, and he was crying because of reading all this different writing so he I think he is his hearts was connected to to the people experience in Myanmar. And I think that's also the power of the war because it's really in front of you. And it gives you time to digest and to, to read about or to to look at it and To feel about what's happened. But at the same time, you can make the decision where you want to flow. And actually, it gives us chance that the people, they can have a feeling of what the people experience even a fervor a small percentage of feeling only they can understand.
Rahel Lim 20:19
That one once thing is so interesting is like, because walls right there in public, so anyone can take on it sprayed over, you know, you cannot protect the wall. It's like, people can pass by, they can have the spray can and they can destroy it in one second. So, this is also a risk, you know, also for me, I, I hate this feeling that I that I'm so vulnerable, you know, because at the end for me, like, like, how shall I say, but if someone crosses a pain out with a spray can cheaply, it does, it hurts. So it would hurt me so deep, because it's crossing a pain of someone. So it makes us really vulnerable to create the image in a public space. And especially in Zurich, and especially in this area, it is very common that people just spray over it. And now it's there since half a year, people they packed actually on it, but not on the on the image just on the side. And I thought, wow, how this is really strong, you know, this shows that this image shines something out that you don't just touch and decide we can actually fix it, you know, we can just go again and paint over it on the side. So that's okay.
Damon Lim 21:47
So then kind of respect that the people they I mean, I will say most of the artists still are very egoistic, that means that I want my art to be shown and seen. And so I feel that what we did, because we are not doing our own art, we are actually reflecting and give a platform for people to express and to deliver the painting the feelings on. So actually artists, I think they are being moved and challenged by it at the same time.
Host 22:24
That's great to hear. And I think, looking for a moment at just this idea of art, creativity, freedom of expression, these are things that anyone who's grown up in the West, we tend to say we take them for granted is I think, an underestimate. It's far more than that we can't really conceive of a life without that freedom, because it's something so second nature to our societies. But in fact, much of human history and much of the world today has had some kind of real acute lack of freedom, or there's been huge consequences and penalties for expressing that freedom. And this is something we see in Myanmar today. There there have been they've gone after the creatives in the society, they've they've killed many of their poets, of course, musicians and painters and graffiti artists and singers and hip hoppers, and just any artists and creatives from any background, they've seen as a danger because they see that these are the people that can in their view, they can they can get in the mass of people's minds and, and convince them with their vision, I think, really, it's not so much that as much as these artists are finding a way to express and release the cumulative and subconscious vision that many people have. But they're just doing it in a very profound way that touches upon this collective unconscious. And so looking at this idea of a freedom and a freedom of expression, as we enjoy in the West, as is seen on the wall, and then in places like Myanmar, or Hong Kong and many other places where this freedom is seen as a threat and it's it's limited and in really terrible ways. You have given you've used the the freedom available in your society to be able to share this story and this vision from those who don't have this in their country. And I think it's very interesting that Damon is coming from Hong Kong as I understand as an artist there, who you suffered from this as well, having your freedom limited having to face very terrible consequences for trying to express a freedom of vision and of creativity. So I wonder what coming from that background, what similarities you've seen and what solidarity you've managed to find, as you've begun to understand more and more than Myanmar story and as you've come in contact with more and more Myanmar artists and creatives and activists.
Damon Lim 24:53
Yeah, I think firstly, I think also the dirty It's true that in many, many places when they got, like, repression, they, when they experience injustice, that actually, a lot of people, they have to make decision not only about artists that, that if they want to continue with what they believe what is right, and or this, they decide to, they have to stay silent, or to live with it, and to just ignore what's happening, right. But I feel through the many civil more movement, people, they have to realize that it's more and more difficult to stay online. So I guess it makes more more people, they have to decide, yes, I don't care about it, I just lived a life that I can survive, I can earn money, or know I'm going to make some make a difference. And to reflect on. So I think as artists, I'm actually me and my wife, we do a lot of community art. So I will say, we are staying quite, if we step back quite a lot, we are not so much stand front, we are more seeing the need of the people of the society. But this is also a strength that we have an experience that we felt, actually, most of the artists or the the art project, we very much interest in or we felt deeply moved those those work that relate to human humanity, with people. So that's, I think that's what I wish I was responding to the Hong Kong movement, that's already three years ago. In the beginning, I mean, I was not there. So I felt very limited to, to get to the news or to know what's really happening. But at the same time, I'm also trying to follow up certain independent news or media, or some friends or update. So sometimes I realize I know, more than my friends in Hong Kong. And so but at the same time, I feel very helpless, because I could not make much things to reflect what's going on. And there's already a lot of artists, they they voice out and they make really amazing artworks or protest art, or illustrations. So I think after a time, I realize is going much more, more and more like unresolved brutality. Of course, it happened from both sides from from the people they're protesting, and also from the government from the police. But we also say there's a lot of, like, systematic violence they're using, so not just about physical violence and or how they are turning their court or about justice that they they're doing a lot of things that putting people in jail, arrest them with political reason. And so I feel more when when when the render, when the fight is getting longer, is so difficult to sustain. I guess it's happened similar in Myanmar as well. I think in the beginning, we we want to fight hard, we want to fight for what we dream for. But after time, people get exhausted. And there's also this coming to the Donald for seeing the people they're being arrested or disappeared or fleeing. So I'm just focusing on there on the on the way to share hope and to to let the people to know, somehow we need to continue because we need that hope to continue to, to to know that what we're fighting for is actually worth two we're fighting. So yeah, I think that's that's a time I just started writing sentences. Basically, in open source matter, that means I put out things on online and people they can download it and they can print it out. They can bring it to the protest or they can stick it up on the wall. So you This way, I could support the people that I want to. And on the other hand, also, there's people that got arrested, they were in prison, especially those, they have less names, or they're not so famous. And then I tried to make certain art works with them, to encourage them, to give them motivation. And to, to ask just openly if someone can print it for them. I was very grateful, but somehow it works for a few person like that. So through this experience, I realized actually, even I am staying so far to observe what's happening, but actually, I can do some things do. And then this is also around the time when the when the Myanmar started this whole, whole movement. And then when raise your fingers, they make this campaign, I remember it is like a, like image, someone just draw an illustration of someone raised three fingers, and then they make an opening call. And then so I just realized that, hey, this is the place that we have to, to pay attention to. Because that that will be much, much more like brutality than we know, in Hong Kong, I always say, and then so yeah, I did something like that. And then I realized that people would do, they were sharing it, and also many other artists, they were joining this campaign, and they did it in such a such a powerful way. And in a very high quality of like submissions, and the website and and how they're presenting to people. That actually they they are not just doing it for fun. They're doing forever Sears, I think this really touched me to see how they were they were getting people to do something with a good cause. And so yeah, and then afterwards that we have this, we received this call from from them to do something for for them to paint a wall. Yeah. So that's, that's somehow how we got in involved. And we, our strength is probably to get people to be a part of it. And we flag what do people want to say, to voice out for them. And I will say this is probably also in this very special time with travel was triple ations struggles. Actually artists, we have the responsibility to reflect what's going on in the society.
Host 33:03
Right, thanks for that. And you're someone who's not only supporting and standing by the Burmese artists, but you yourself are an artist who was who used that expression, when there was conflict and problems in your own place of Hong Kong. And so I'm wondering if because you've been an artist in Hong Kong, and you've had many interactions with other artists there who are also trying to stand for freedom and express their vision and face consequences for that. And then you've come in contact with so many Burmese artists through this wall that you created, what kinds of how would you contrast the Burmese artists that you've come in contact with with the Hong Kong ones? Where have you found similarities and and just kind of an overall humanity that is an artistic expression that's gotten your work and where might you have seen some some differences in the contrast from the Burmese artists artistic community and what you've been involved with Hong Kong?
Damon Lim 34:02
So far, I mean, I just know, some of them, right. I'm in Hong Kong law. So we know we get in touch with them with an artist in Hong Kong during the last two, three years more before we have we know a part of it. But what I will say is there's some similarity in Myanmar in Hong Kong to those artists. We got to know they're very selfless. They are very kind and warm. They they will like to help when they can I think it's such a beautiful attitude and the balance of normally when even when they are forever technically very good and they have great ideas. They're willing to share, to support each other. And to do the also for quick and to do Very passionate
Rahel Lim 35:02
a when they have internet, they're very quick.
Damon Lim 35:04
Yeah, I think they are very, for easy going on, there is a very different mentality compared to here we are here in Switzerland in more European way of thinking of one is a bit working on their own. Compared to that,
Rahel Lim 35:23
I think the open source like we realized that Asian artists, they, they are giving these things out. And everyone like this open source mentality, you working together, you give your art and everyone can print it, where the westerns are much more like this is mine. Or like, and sometimes very weird fight suddenly appears of like, who has to ownership for something. There was a really weird incident about the wall that also someone kind of keep, like kind of wanting to make it to his own. And it was a kind of a challenge to communication. And we realized we think so different. Like, we don't really care to who this idea belong? Or who had the idea or whatever, I don't really I?
Damon Lim 36:17
Well, I think for us I think when we are when we are collecting people's ideas, or asking people to submit their their thought, or the sketch the sentences they want to express, I think the the most powerful way is when when they they could have the ownership of it. That means they feel they're being taken serious. The voice is being a part of the Wallace show. So it's not often one person's will process this, this piece of art. Yeah,
Rahel Lim 37:04
I think Hong Kong people have that too, that that we are one and we are working together and be helping each other. And we are we we have to stand together. And we are not kind of It doesn't matter who is better or not. And this I felt also very strong in Myanmar went for like we felt very strong. But Myanmar people don't. Many don't speak English. And that makes it really hard to bring it out. Yeah. There was a difference where Hong Kong people they're really good in connecting and getting it over the internet and speaking out in English. So they they had a very strong impact, or they were able to bring the messages much further, just language wise. I don't know if you would agree to that. But this is what we observed
Damon Lim 37:58
or received. I mean, of course, he also in Hong Kong, they have their own like, like local language group. They also write a lot in their own language, which is Cantonese or in traditional Chinese. But we see it in a lot of Myanmar, sharing posts, unless they are generalists, otherwise, a lot of disposer in their own language in Burmese, which will be more difficult for people if they have no idea about even Where's Myanmar, and then to see this for Bruto images, and then to see some tax data to understand. And I think one of the difficult one of the differences. Also not many people in the Western world, they've been to Myanmar or the south so far we experienced when we talk about this topic, many people they weren't they pass by Hong Kong or they somehow changed the flight in Hong Kong as a few days. So they have a big feeling of it. They have also they maybe they didn't know about some little history of like Hong Kong used to be colonized by the British government and then went back to China now and so with Myanmar, some people they don't even know this is a country, which is yeah, for us is like come on, but at the same time, it's also a bit reality because some some this not forever popular country if you compare it to Thailand or Vietnam, or Laos, and so they are still less no like
Host 39:41
Right? Yeah, that's that's all definitely true. And you both have your background. You obviously come from Hong Kong and spend a lot of time they're within laws, and haven't had the same experience living in Myanmar knowing the Burmese community as others but yet this project has brought you into proximity with For a number of activists and dissidents, and people working for democracy and opposing the military regime artists, and so you've really suddenly found yourself surrounded, admits Burmese community and then those of allies like myself. And so as in this past year, as you've become more involved in the Myanmar cause and aligned with those who are resisting and supporting democracy, what is stood out for you what has surprised you either about the project itself and doing that or just about your interactions with the Burmese community as you've come to learn more about what's going on? And what this place is and who these people are? What is stood out for you?
Rahel Lim 40:43
It's a good question. I mean, like this, like, many people became really friends. Especially those like lift into living in Switzerland really were a part of the wall. So we will have also a thank you dinner balance soon. Also, one artists who came from France and now last week, he worked in a refugee camp, where there's also a homeless person who flee and his theory was, it's very interesting. It just feels like being friends. Like Damon, like they haven't met him outside and he was just like meeting an old friend even though you don't know each other actually. But I'm often very to be honest about my friends, because I think the traumas of seeing all the images all the time it getting very, like Jose then use the regulary seeing and the bombing and the killing and the images of dead bodies it really start to eat them inside. And I want to just be a friend for them and and standing still with them in the pain but it's really I can see that it getting very long. And they're really they're not loud suffering but they're very silent suffering. And but the suffering is very very deep I think that's stood out. It's it's Myanmar people or people they can make jokes about the darker thing that's kind of a way they survive I don't know but they have quite a dark humor which helps you to to also be with them in their really difficult times but seeing their silent tears that's very it's very heavy. And I sometimes feel like yeah, we did this wall. I mean, as as you say, right, you from Hong Kong we we are doing many different projects for many different people. We did this magazine magazine with 130 artists of 68 countries there are countries like Colombia, Iran, Russia, there's so many different countries where people are inside who stand against the regime really extremely experienced suffering and and sometimes I feel guilty that we cannot just be from one place. And that's maybe why some like our page or in some is not always full of Myanmar posts, because this is what I am there for my friends who I got to know for this project and I want to defeat them.
Damon Lim 44:03
I think so. Especially. We got to know one of the friends aren't. She's we call her grandma River. She's from Yama. And so she's already from another generation but I think she also experienced the movement earlier before from time of OSA Aung San su Kyi that she was so lovely to as she came to how to pain to write their their language on the wall and she cook food for us. I think probably these are the two things the people if then they know me, they know that they have lovely food and the people they have such a great hospitality. When you are their friend, they help you and they give you everything. I think this is the thing that was similar to what I experienced in Hong Kong when people see you as friend. They you With the best friend near you, they give you everything. They give you all support they can. But it was quiet the Choir, Choir pain that to see. She's like a grandmother generation or like another generation, but she's carrying on this pain and this guilt and this bad feelings of helplessness that she could not do much. But actually, she already did many things I would say, as much as you can support, fundraise, but but it's still tough to, to see that. That pain is still here. Yeah, but, but I had a very funny experience with her because she prepares song that you want to sing in front of the people. So she gave me the lyrics. I mean, I have no idea. It's just something about the mountain of the Qin village. And then I tried to find on YouTube a video. And I tried to learn to because I clicked the time I can play music. So vinyl or record the style or maybe you know, this is a little bit this karaoke style, Asian a little bit old. Loft song, like, for sentimental, and then so I practice I prepared a whole part. And then she was singing in front of everyone and I was playing and she's not following my my rhythm at all. And so I have to sometimes catch her back and then to say now is this board? Are you going to sing that? And then oh, but so it's actually fun, but at the same time also for sad as well after song, she was crying. So yeah, there's so much emotions, I think it's beyond what we could handle sometimes. And I really wish that there will be a release that means a situation can change and also people they can also get have this really darks cycle of it and but at the same time, we realize probably in reality the world is not treating this nation. Well, you know. So that's, that's the thing, is the tough reality to know, actually, we can do something, everyone can do something Come on, everyone can make a change about it. But at the same time, like hey, how and when will you? When will it be end? And that's the difficult part to, to face. I think
Rahel Lim 47:46
he had when you talked about the similarity to Hong Kong. One thing we realize, and I think it's also in our own, you never feel enough. Like, you know, when ever I talked to our Burmese friends, everyone feel like he doesn't do enough. Everyone feel guilty. It's this constant guilt of not being there not looking, not fighting, not not doing enough. It's never an essay, actually even people fighting on the front, if you're not doing enough for when they get insured, they don't feel enough. And assume we saw in Hong Kong as well. But especially for everyone who is outside of the country, or who flee or who left. It's this feeling I I kind of failed. I didn't I didn't give enough and I I read books about the Holocaust and I I read about this, this fact that so many Holocaust, like the survivors in the Holocaust, they felt killed, the biggest pain was the guilty feeling of feeling that they survived because others died. And so what what we do personally very often is talking with our friends about these points and Intuit it to them and to say like, do you know that you do enough? And do you know that what? That you are enough what you are as well? And I think it's something we have to tell each other very often. Because we will easily forget it. And it's a pain. It's a universal pain we all carry. But if we don't give it a name, then we will never when we feel so alone with it. Yeah.
Damon Lim 49:38
Because the burden is very heavy on and everyone is carrying their own backpack or you know, I feel there's so many people there is not a decision they want to carry that you know, but it's yours and it's timing and so much things that They could not digest and they see people there. They are also people around them. They're carrying their own backpacker. And so I feel there's such a heaviness right? At the same time, you know, I think probably Asian people, when they are happy when they smile when they just being satisfied by maybe eating something nice or you know, so they are so simple, almost naive, but at the same time but at the same time, this heaviness is actually very difficult to deal with. Yeah.
Rahel Lim 50:39
And then you often have it also in the family, right? Like, we experience in our own family that there are people there for the regime and and against right. And you we sometimes don't even know anymore who is on what side. And it's so conflicted because it's inside the family. It's your brothers and sisters, so I don't so it's not just black and white, the whole story. And, and all these things makes it that you feel like alone and are able to talk like guilty to talk guilty to. Yeah.
Host 51:24
Well, thank you for sharing all that, that's really quite a bit to take in. And I, I think it's really, it's also just so inspiring to hear from people as yourselves who don't necessarily have a background in Myanmar, but are choosing to devote so much of your time and attention and creativity towards this conflict. And this people that have been crying out for attention for the last two years for support for engagement. And this is a very novel and clever way to bring people in through another door, you know, through the door of art and expression. And once they are murals, cityscape, you know, and once they come in through that they can then learn a bit something about the conflict. So, you know, I think a lot of people have seen what you've done around the world, a lot of people appreciate it. And that, you know, you didn't have to do this, you're raising three children on your own you, you you're exiled from your own land, this isn't a conflict that is impacting you. And yet to take on this burden, I think means a lot for a lot of people. So just really appreciate the work that you've done behind that, as well as taking time to talk to us today about what you've done. And what drove you to do that. So yeah, just really, thanks for all that.
Rahel Lim 52:39
You're welcome. Thanks for your work you're doing the faithfulness you guys have. I mean, I think it takes a long belief. I think we could just, we could just do a little rock to support and to hold our hands out. And you're probably
Damon Lim 52:57
this is also I mean, our small motivation sometimes even to do it. For one person, you know, even just one person, my got the message or our field, a hall or the see the light. And that's enough. This is already enough reason to do what we're doing.
Rahel Lim 53:25
Can be interesting. That's years ago, I think it was 2016. I then was it 2016. I like like, I got to know, a really wonderful woman in Hong Kong, and she is a political activist. And I remember I asked her because I was often wondering, how can you become a, like, how can your life turn to be a political activist? Did you choose that? Or like, how does this happen? And and I have, so I asked her, and I mean, at that time, I didn't know what lies ahead of us, right. So yeah, growing up, I mean, I have my story, which is not an easy story, but still it's not such a story. So I asked her and I said to her, like, how did he come that like how did it happen that you became what like that you came a political activist? And then she said to me it just it knocked on the door and I opened and it's such a strong sentence. Because today I would say it's the same answer. I decided a long time ago that when someone knocks on my door I open and I listen what I do with it, I don't know but I will listen. It doesn't. It's not means that i i can react but I will listen. And to be honest, it was as simple as this. I feel like given to me. We opened the door and we listen And that's how we ended up being where we are today. And today, today, sometimes I wish that I would not open the door and not listen. But on the other hand, I face the mirror if I don't open and I don't listen. And I think that's, that's a life decision. And I think so many people they telling, like, oh, I don't know, or like, this doesn't interest me or like, are kind of bringing some kind of excuses. And I always think, yes, because you don't open the door and you don't listen, that's okay. But don't bring some excuses for it. Because it's painful to open the door. And listen, it's very painful. But this is kind of for me that I can look into my children's face, I have to do that. I think that's my responsibility as a human being. And sometimes we listen and we say, I'm overwhelmed. I, I'm is too much, I can't do anything. And that's okay. You know, it's important to learn to be honest, in all these fights with our limits, and our Yeah, our limitations. And this is what I tell very often to my homies friend, I say, learn to be honest with your limitation. Listen and tell that you can, it's okay. We have to learn that there are things in front of our doors, we don't know how to handle and we have to, like, the thing is that when I remember a long time ago, I was once we were in a very devastated situation. And I tried to get some help. And I talked to some psychologists and different people with it, about it. And everyone gave me some kind of explanations, and I don't know what. And then I remember I was with it was a very crazy situation. Actually, my body reacted so crazily that I couldn't move anymore. And then we called one coaching like a trauma therapist, and she said to us, this is red light, people like you would end up in psychiatry, this is so bad while this is so so bad with what I see at the moment in your in your situation. And she was so shocking looking at me like really intrusive spoke it out, like very, very bold, you know, like, this is red light, stop it immediately, you have to make a break, you know. And I I realized she gave me a mirror of what really is the reality. She showed me a mirror that my pain is real. And she showed me a mirror that what I'm going through is nightmare. And I realized this is what we need from each other, when we open it on the list. And we have to give a mirror to the other person that the other person know that what she or he carries is real. It's a reality. It's painful, it's devastating, or if it's joyful, or whatever, but they need a mirror to see the reality and the truth. And this is what we can give each other. And I think this is what we did with the wall and with the art and sometimes I am tired and then I show a tired face but it also shows something that is personally what I'm carried tiring, you know, so but this is what we try to, to mirror it to. To react honestly and to learn that life is not a straight path. But I think to be honest, you know a flower can be hit by the rain like crazy and the storm and it looks like she died. But then the next day when she open the petals, she looks even more beautiful. And I have to admit, even though it was so painful seeing Hong Kong and everything I feel almost all of our friends they got more beautiful. They got more humans they I also think that our marriage and our relationship and we by ourselves got more beautiful. Even we lost a lot of money for tea. But I feel we got something that that I would never ever want to give away again. It's a richness it's like diamonds you cannot replace and sometimes it needs to storm I don't understand why.
59:38
Yeah
Host 59:43
well, thank you that's That's lovely. Thank you so much for taking the time to share the thoughts about your life and background admission as well as this while you did and sending out just as you say sometimes you just have to hear a voice knocking on the door and open and answer it. Hopefully this is a That voice that's knocking on the door for some people. So thanks. Thanks so much for being that voice to whoever's tuning in today.
Rahel Lim 1:00:09
Thank you for your time.
Damon Lim 1:00:10
Yeah, thank you.
Rahel Lim 1:00:12
And thanks for giving a chance even the beginning we didn't know Right.
Host 1:00:25
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1:04:30
whatever Iran UNGA we're gonna do we're gonna do is we're gonna visit here and basically yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda