Transcript: Episode #183: Pabhassaro Bhikkhu

Here is the complete transcript for this podcast episode. This transcript was generated using an AI transcription service and has not been manually reviewed by a human reader. Consequently, some of the words in the text may not accurately reflect what the speaker actually said. This is especially applicable to speakers with distinct accents, as the AI may encounter challenges in interpreting and transcribing their speech. Therefore, it is advised that this transcript not be quoted or referenced in any article or document without cross-referencing with the original recording to ensure the precise wording of the guest's statements.

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Host  00:39

You're listening to an interview that was recorded before the military coup in Myanmar. As many listeners know, after the coup took place, we transformed our mission to respond to the urgent needs at the time. We're now going back through these previously recorded interviews, which largely focus on meditation and the spiritual path and releasing them now this is quite a rich conversation which follows and let's get into that

01:31

my name

01:42

is

Host  02:04

so really happy that pico Bussereau has been able to come and join us and make time for this podcast. Really interested to learn more about your monkhood and the things that inspired your monkhood where you came from. Thanks again for being able to come out here and and make time to join us.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  02:24

Yes, I'm very, very grateful for the invitation and for the opportunity to share a little bit of of my life.

Host  02:34

Yeah, so let's start at the beginning. I know you're from Poland, I don't know much more than that. So can you set the early stages of your, your early life and family and childhood?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  02:45

All right is so yeah, I was born in South southern Poland. And I grew up in a mountainous beautiful, beautiful scenery, a lot of nature. So let's say the first I would say important important step in my life was when I was about 12 years old, and I got really into music. Basically did, I would say was the first important thing because I put all my heart all my attention to it. So everything else started to be pretty much irrelevant. What kind of music as it started with hard rock, heavy metal in that stuff, American or polish or something else, everything mostly American, like what bands of everything from like Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Metallica, and later on, I actually picked up guitar. So I really put a lot of time like six to 10 hours a day playing. And that was the first let's say important thing because I didn't really have to dreams to have a beautiful car or beautiful house. Everything was just one pointed with just one one area. It was really, really inspiring and interesting.

Host  04:09

Why was music that way? What did it bring out in you?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  04:12

Well, at first it was challenging, especially playing was very, very challenging. And it was very rewarding. Really putting your heart into something one one thing and developing skills. So it is important, isn't it? That's why I mentioned that because that's why I started kind of inquiring into meditation. I was about 15 years old and I just wanted to be aware of

Host  04:44

everything and music made you feel like you wanted to be aware of it.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  04:47

I wanted to be aware of everything, every sound, every movement of my fingers, everything that just wanted to to be aware of everything. And that was kind of I fought as if it's impossible. So I was really inquiring into what kind of tools What can I learn what can I investigate and how to accomplish that impossible quest. So that was the first stage.

Host  05:13

And music was what brought you to that desire of wanting to know everything and to be have this awareness,

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  05:19

know everything they made more aware of every kind of I didn't know the word mindfulness. But that was the thing that I wanted to develop. But I didn't really know the word I didn't know, any teacher, it just naturally came like, yeah, how to really feel more rather than think more how to feel my fingers, how to feel the wind, how to feel the word rather than think of the world. So if we have fast forward, I did start at the time sitting, I did start with different books, say like, you know, the tip net handy Vietnamese, Zen master orden. Actually, many non Buddhist books, everything that was available, psychology, NLP, all sorts of things, everything, just trying to accomplish that goal, how to develop concentration and mindfulness, knowing of course, the technical terms and names, just how to develop mind how to develop feeling the world. So that brought me to gradually gradually starting to see like, there was, let's say, the second important thing was when I was in Kenya, with my parents, that's actually, I'm very, very grateful because we traveled a lot with my parents. So when I was about 17, we went to Kenya. And I remember just driving on a Jeep Safari, and it's like this, you know, the scene from National Geographic Channel, everything is perfect. You see the lions and elephants. And it's all really so beautiful, and just really astounding. And then you just feel nothing. You just feel like, I start to see defaults, I start to see faults about in life and Poland, about my girlfriend at a time about music about some other things. And I see Well, actually, to come to that point to come to that place, it's so difficult for us, it costs so much money, it's really so, so difficult. And here, like, it felt like as if I'm in this orange grove, and I came here to make an orange juice. And I'm not capable of taking the oranges that I just in front of my face, and I'm not able to squeeze them. I realized at the time, I lacked some very important life skill,

Host  07:58

however, and how old were you at this time 70. In Kenya, you're 17 Okay, I already

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  08:02

learned two years into practice at that time, but because they didn't have a kind of very good teacher. So it was just a trials and too many mistakes. But it was a very touching and very important moment to see well, there has to be something that I have not discovered, there has to be something that the education that my friends has not shared with me, that how to actually be able to live in the moment, to experience the moment to be content with what is rather than constantly searching for different different objects, different things. And here I am with something that is supposed to be a dream come true if it is an amazing holiday. And I'm not able to enjoy it. And immediately, all my desires to you know, to work and to have a lot of money and to is just immediately vanished because why should I do it? If I'm here I am already here this is already to destination and it just doesn't work. But the music was again this one plot one line it had continued with. So the other important event was two years later. I was at the time I moved from this break, having moved music into chess afterwards, I still continued with music as kind of the major focus in my life. And I moved from the very heavy music to heart started to soften so I started to listen and play more jazz and blues and kind of mellow out and and An important very, very touching moment was I went to a jazz club and there was a, an old piano player. And, you know, you see this guy like a very old in his 80s, a grumpy guy just complaining about every single thing, just like an ark, like, you wouldn't really want to go close to him. And then this grumpy guy sits in front of a piano. And in a split of second, he transforms himself into like a three year old child you see does this blazing eyes with joy and with freshness, and just like the red cheeks and he's playing for one and a half hours, just an honestly, the music doesn't matter. He just sees his joy just filling in the whole room. And then the concert finishes, and he's again, the grumpy guy. And that made me to really see what I've been doing. Yes, I can get into music, I can really get very happy. But what happens when I don't have to instrument what happens when I don't internalize the music? In my mind? What happens if I don't listen? How do I treat other people other objects? Is really, am I really getting happier because of debt? Or am I just going into swing of? Yeah, this is nice. I really like it. And everything else? I dislike it. This I really want and the other things? No, I don't want. And that was a very, very strong, really very strong in my heart. Because it showed me yes, I'm interested in what this old guy did, but not with his fingers, but with his heart, how to bring this joy, how to extract his joy, and be able to apply it with other objects with otter actions. How can I have open heart to my family, to my friends to people in the street? to things that are unpleasant uncomfortable? And I didn't have an answer. And honestly, no one around me had to answer it took me many many years to see that what I was searching has been hidden for years in the teaching of the Buddha uh, he was also trying to find stability, with all the unpredictable changing objects, he was trying to find a joy that is independent, it is not conditioned. And that very a dead time very immature intention and desire to search for that. Independence. For that freedom from the conditioned objects, freedom from entanglement has been really from that moment onwards, the primary focus in my life.

Host  13:42

The moment onwards after seeing this jazz musician is that was that the moment where you would say this drive and search began?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  13:52

It will If we trace back, the first thing was really wanting to develop awareness of everything, then the more mature was is seeing how to develop stability with all things, stability amongst amidst the unstable things and objects. And of course, I wouldn't be able to sort it out without further unfoldings without coming here to Asia and being exposed to some really, really valuable spiritual friends.

Host  14:24

So you were 17 years old, you been interested in music, you went to Kenya and had this this realization while you were there in Africa with your family, you were reading books on all subjects you mentioned. Buddhist, non Buddhist, looking to develop a greater sense of mindfulness even if you don't know the words you have a sense of the concept. This juncture in your life, where did you find to go Where did you find the practice?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  14:55

At the time actually, when? When I met this Old musician, I was already into a in a spiritual group in a Hindu spiritual group. So I took the five precepts, and I was practicing to samatha practice. And that was kind of the calmness, meditation. And the part of the practice was the determination of three hours of sitting. So that kind of aligned with seeing what he's doing that there has to be something more. At that time, it was I'm sharing it right now I see like, I see the there were those immature and important moments. But duress was just a flow of conditions. When I came to Asia, actually, I didn't really intend to seek a spiritual path. They came here as an English teacher,

Host  15:55

here, meaning where to Thailand.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  16:00

So I came basically, for work. But then in the culture, in the simplicity of people in the northeastern Thailand, I started to find more clues in a like a detective trying to sort out, okay, I have those small, small things that happen in my life, and I don't know really what to do. And then I see those people like they have very little and they are much more content. Their life is much more aligned with what I'm searching, what the heart is searching. And then when it's really connected. Like I didn't really like reading in my life, apart from Yes, I graduated University. And I was in bed at school, but just for casual reading was not really my thing. But as soon as I connected with the Buddhist teaching in Thailand, I read like 200 books.

Host  17:01

So even before you went to Thailand, you weren't necessarily interested in the Buddha's style of discourse or teaching. It was a general spiritual and personal development. And it was being in Thailand and searching for clues that led you to the Buddhist books and Buddhist teachings.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  17:17

Well, because many of the books that are kind of spiritual, they have references to Buddha's discourses and his teachings, but they come into you know, they're extracted metaphors, similes, and not necessarily we don't really know Oh, this is from the Buddha. This is from some, some other traditions

Host  17:36

that was Buddhist inspired. Exactly.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  17:39

And when, when I was in Thailand, it was mostly like, Ching Cha dasa. And also like Mahasi said, Open DITA so then just it just opened with every every every teacher, everything that is in English is related to Dhamma. It just started to flow in.

Host  17:58

So you started to get access to these books. Of all

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  18:00

Yeah, almost everything that is available nukes at podcasts are like recordings, videos, audio, that it just started to get really, really interesting.

Host  18:12

And how old? Were you at this time?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  18:14

At that time? I was 22. Okay, right.

Host  18:17

And coming from Poland, what was the how were you brought up religiously? What was your family's background?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  18:23

My family's getting Catholic. So they are quite traditional in this matter. When I was 12, I kind of I stopped going to church, I lost faith. And then when, when this happened when I was 15, I kind of started to just sit I didn't really ask myself what is my religion, I was more interested in developing the skill, the ability to see to feel the world. And then about 19 of H I connected with this Hindu called meditation practice

Host  19:03

in Poland, in Poland

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  19:05

is yet to give you one more piece of the puzzle to finish the background part. So I graduated finals in I forgot I was called finance and accounting. Oh yes. I worked at IBM for a year with an office job and, you know, it just didn't fit to the picture. But it was a valuable experience. I had two really good teachers at university, all those people who work for the government, you know, in Ministry of Finance, etc. And that was another kind of clue. So showing that yes, those people are famous. They've written most as like many freedom, one or 200 books. They are also in the The European Parliament. And they're not happy. It's very clear. So I just, I tried for a year, and I knew this is not dead. I graduated the university, I worked for a year. No, it doesn't work. Let's move on. I came to Thailand and teaching English was another step, so to speak, and what

Host  20:29

led to that decision? Why did you decide to go to uproot yourself and go to Thailand and try a new profession?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  20:38

You know, because, for me, it was not difficult to stay as an accountant. But I just felt it's not that it's not it, I do feel much better to connect with people not to stay in a small office and just, I could do do the job easily, but just didn't feel right. Didn't feel I felt that I can do so much more with with my life. And I didn't want to waste it. And teaching English I felt like, because I had a lot of teachers in my, in my family, my mother, grandmother, and grandfather. So as I tried, I went to Thailand. And as soon as I went into the classroom, it was it really felt

Host  21:28

quite good. You were teaching at like schools or private,

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  21:31

I started in the small schools in the rural area. Then I did the certificate from Cambridge. And then I moved to basically, I had students from Ministry of Commerce, from schools, children, adults, average is really kind of that vast array of really diverse students.

Host  21:59

And so around this time, you started reading these books on Buddhist literature reading about some of the great teachers and traditions of Burma and Thailand. And I imagine that had quite an effect on you.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  22:09

Exactly, exactly. And I was quite immersed in Thai culture is so yeah, I came to a point where I had a choice. I had been offered a very good job at a university in Northern Thailand. And they had a choice to go to a Buddhist monastery, and to teach English to the monks. And at that time, I stopped for a week and I knew, I just felt, you know what, this is going to be the most important decision in your life. I knew it's, it is going to be important. I didn't know at the time it is ordination. But I knew going to university is really good, really great opportunity was very nice job. But I felt, hey, I really want to practice more. I don't know what

Host  23:00

I didn't know how, right you didn't have a teacher, you didn't have a tradition.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  23:04

I mean, I did have some concentration and some happiness. But you know, I didn't know the next step. I didn't know why to practice. And then suddenly, I went to the Buddhist monastery and then I continued further just exploring almost majority of the materials that are available in English and more and more moving from reading like I Gen Cha or you know Satow this into the suttas and it was really like so refreshing. And so really feel like this is it this is I finally enjoy reading in Jory, like, truthfully with pure heart.

Host  23:51

So maybe the suit that should be required reading and Western curriculum, can students do enjoy it?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  23:56

It would be perfectly interesting.

Host  24:00

So what was the difference for you if you can say a little more about that going from a John Shaw Mahasi say, those kinds of books into directly reading the exact Sutras of the Buddha. What what did you find so different about those experiences?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  24:16

I mean, reading the books of the Egyptians were good in the beginning, and I continued that throughout my first year of monkhood. But first I finished almost everything that was available right it was just nothing more and then I noticed that it's like they contain the same message but they have a little bit of additional taste. Is like you have a coffee with you know with coconut flavor and with a walnut flavor and with a hazelnut flavor. And is basically I wasn't interested in the flavor. I wanted to know what is the what is the essence? What is the really What brings the the strenght did the effect of coffee and as we know the coffee brings you awake

Host  25:15

right so you you moved at this point you move to reading the suitors of the Buddha, you're at the Buddhist monastery teaching English, I assume as a layperson.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  25:24

Yes, however, I did time I stayed there for six months. And it just happened. Just Oh, would you like to ordain? Yes. Actually, I didn't think about it, that it just felt, yes, this is the, this is something that just sounds right at this time.

Host  25:46

And what monastery was that?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  25:48

Actually, it was a small known name monastery, it was supposed to be a temporary ordination and to like, I ordained and and I was sent to a small forest monastery on the border of Myanmar and Thailand. Very poor area. And maybe that was what really brought the first strong inspiration in the monastic path. Because the people there were so poor, the areas were. And it was not easy. We had very little, but somehow there was this. Really, we had a lot of time to practice, like 12 hours a day, suddenly, all this kind of inspiration to practice, practice, practice. And now, oh, I don't have the job. And I figure I don't have the mobile reception. I'm here in the forest. And suddenly, I can just sit. And indeed, just two, three days after a donation, it was very actually very, very easy to, to feel very comfortable in the sitting posture to really find a lot of joy and a Time was passing. Actually, yes, if no time. And there were a lot of difficulties sickness, you know, it was severe. It's a very poor and very difficult area to live in. But this inspiration from seeing people in the village, seeing their generosity, their support, and those moments of joy of sitting meditation, it all were just like, oh, by the end of the first month, I knew Okay, yes. This is it?

Host  27:52

And how are you figuring out how to actually sit because it sounds like up to this point, you still didn't have so much of a teacher or technique or tradition? You were you had some background with the Hindu practice, you were reading books. Now suddenly, you're a monk, how are you figuring out what to do for those 12 hours on your own in the forest?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  28:11

Well, by that time, because I spoke with the monks when I was teaching them English, they helped me to realize that the Hindu practice, I was actually doing the Cassina practice, and that I was actually developing Samatha. So even though I didn't really know the names, et cetera, but I had to back in Poland to have a consistent practice of three hours a day of sitting. So under time, I was eight years into some of the practice, even though I didn't really I didn't have it in the perspective of why and where does it lead, but I was just holding on to that because it was really joyful and very, it brought a lot of happiness.

Host  28:59

So that's what you continue doing in the early monkhood

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  29:03

know when I came to Thailand and while reading those books, I switched from that into breath meditation, but the result was this the same light and bliss and it was kind of very natural at the time. And as soon as the kind of the renunciation and ordination procedure as soon as the morality and was established and basically to the mattress of the household life event. A it was very strenghtened it was just dead was not a problem basically to sit in was was not a problem at all. And I did a skip this part There, you know, there were many things happening before I ordained. I did have to have first Vipassana teacher. He was a gem promote a module, you might have heard. So I used to go to him and and then I met two monks, and to two young monks who were practicing the forest to Tonga style meeting every day 3am They would wake up and 3am to 5am Practice 5am prepared to go to the village 530 goop into pot, and farms around, yes, house round, and then going back from our last round is eating one meal a day and practicing all day. And I met them and I felt like what you're doing is impossible. It's just like, how can you do it is it seemed like that for me there Luke like some superheroes? Honestly, at that time, I came to this Vipassana teacher, I see those two monks, and they are just so impressive. And it took me like, this was actually two months before the ordination. And then it three months ahead, I was doing this impossible thing. And I felt like how is it? How is it possible how me I'm waking up in the morning, and, you know, it's cold is early, but I'm just covered in three blankets in in the mountains and, and I'm happy, and I'm super happy and then super joyful. And that was just defeat was just filling the whole heart and whole body. And then I realized, Oh, actually, they're not special. I'm not special. There are 1000s 10s of 1000s of forest monks in Thailand. And dead time is just realize, yeah, this is kind of this is what I've been looking for. These are the real skills, who have real abilities, and the strength, the inner strength, it lies from debt, from simple things, simplifying the the requisites simplifying life. And by abiding in accordance with the monastic rules, and to doing little, I mean, doing what is necessary, not involving the things that are not necessary, but at the same time being diligent in what we are doing. And to I was really mind blown, what, how much more we can have energy, how much more we can develop how much more we can see how much more we can understand. And very quickly meeting those forest monks, especially those who do have a good practice, who, you know, who practice 20 3040 years, in that kind of stable manner. I just realized I've never met anyone who's even remotely close, anywhere in Europe. All those famous teachers at a university, oh, my jazz teachers, all the famous musicians. There, it's just something like, completely different level. And so the faith was so strong. And as we know, from Buddhist teaching faith, it naturally brings effort. So it just started naturally flow.

Host  33:51

And that was all happening that kind of practice that kind of awareness and understanding was all developing in your first few months of monkhood in this poor mountain region of North Northeastern Thailand, was it this is Northwest Northwestern Thailand, right with the Myanmar border right on the border. Right. So this and this is happening. All this is happening just in your first few months of putting the robes on. Exactly,

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  34:17

exactly. And yeah, then I also I came back to my monastery, and then I went for a go anchor retreat. I was told about it. Okay, let's try. Let's call me moved is already this inspiration. This was it was like holy days in a positive way.

Host  34:47

So this was like your first structured meditative experience, right?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  34:51

I mean, you know, I did time I already had exposure to some of the really famous and greatest teachers in Thailand. And but to be a kind of to the Burmese style of meditation retreat, that was the first meditation retreat, so to speak. And that was the first kind of clear transition from summit that will be possible. Oh, I

Host  35:16

say, right. So up to that point, you'd still been doing some form of on apana practice or on apana Cassina. scimitar?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  35:24

He is, yes. And well, the funny thing was a, the Glinka experience was quite positive. And I didn't sleep for three days, yes. And then after the retreat, I actually went to the monastery of the going teacher, because he was a monk in Thailand. And Sharon, I spent a couple of weeks with him. And he was also giving, like additional instructions, more personalized instructions. And yeah, that's how it kind of started to put into the puzzles into like a put the pieces into the whole whole picture.

Host  36:09

Right. So this was a, after this going to have a passionate retreat, you went to the monastery of the Abbot, who was also going to teach her on the course. And he had a monastery where further passionate instruction and practice was taking place by the monks and laypeople there. And you stayed there for some time. Exactly. How was that?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  36:29

It was very positive. It was very good experience. And I did to quite a few of those going through courses. But it was, again, this was one of the experiences in those in this first year,

Host  36:48

and how was what did you find the difference was between a non monastic meditation center where these instructions are being followed in a 10, day, 10 day structure, and going to a monastery where the same practice is being held, but it doesn't quite have the same day one, day two, day three.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  37:08

I mean, I do see many positive things from day one, day two, day three, attitude of the going practice, and still, for most of the lay practitioners, I feel it's very, very good, very suitable. However, the thing is, that we need to learn how to practice with every object. It was still a bit constricting, it was great, but how do we apply it with every conditions? How do we apply it when we speak with people? How do we apply it? When we have something to do? How do we apply it when there are more in kind of some really, really big challenges that we have to overcome, and we cannot just merely observe the body, there has to be some action and debt. Whereas I find this method very interesting. But I still felt this alone is not the whole package. And having read the suit, as at the time, I knew that is valuable, it's part of the, you know, Sati, Putana. But there's much more, there's much more to to apply. So he also went to what banana chart into the diverse tradition. And basically, to give them more overview, so we don't kind of dissect every single weekend moment. So I did spend to basically half of my time into Thai Forest Tradition, and half of my time in the Burmese Mahasi tradition in

Host  38:54

Thailand, in Burma. Okay. So you were going back and forth between the countries at this point?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  38:59

Yes, sometimes I would stay longer in Thailand for a year or two, sometimes it would come to Burma.

Host  39:06

So you were spending time in the Thai Forest Tradition in Thailand, while also then going to Burma and spending time in the Mahasi tradition over in Burma? And the reason I asked that is because of course, the Mahasi the Burmese Mahasi tradition is very alive and well in Thailand. So I was curious about which strain of the Mahasi schools you were in. Yeah,

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  39:25

I also tried in Thailand, but basically did was that was my journey in the past over seven years, and I found it to actually very beneficial. I felt in my heart that all those places are very good, but I didn't really feel that that is fulfilling my intention. And I felt as if something is missing, and it's something in the early The use of monkhood was not clear. But later it became clear. And it's a very simple question. Why? Why do we do it? Why do we go for a meditation retreat? Why do we take ropes? Or why did the Buddha leave the palace and bringing this questions into heart, brought completely different, transition it with the ADEPT of aspiration and with the depth of really renunciation into art. You know, the Buddha was not interested in learning a meditative technique, he was not interested in learning the jhanas, however blissful and peaceful they are. The Buddha was constantly going here is debt, bringing the fulfillment of my intention, is that really stable is dead, really bringing the cessation of suffering. So he started at the palace. It doesn't work, he move on. He went to one teacher, learn a very deep calm the seventh jhanas and he check his heart and doesn't work, he move on. He went to his second teacher. Again, he outdo his teacher, how did his teacher he was, he finished the whole summit, the practice learned eight jhanas, he was offered to home Meditation Center, he was offered disciples, but he knew this doesn't work. He became the master of the ascetic practices. He had his five and five followers punch of idea. But he also checked his heart. He said, Well, it doesn't work. I'm the best ascetic in the world. And it's, it doesn't work. And he finally decided to abandon even dead. And, at some point, asking you those questions and really seeing, why do we do that? Because I felt as a bit like, you know, because we can speak about traditions and is very good and very important. But it seems like you go to one monastery and you're offered with a spoon. And, you know, every person is offered with a spoon and start using this spoon. And then the other monastery, everyone is offered with a fork, and using the fork, the otter monastery, every person is offered chopsticks, and yet another monastery and people are using hands. And of course, they're supposed to eat something. But if the focus is on the chopsticks, spoon, fork or the hand, but it's not on the dish itself, what is the nutriment? Why are we taking the spoon and what nutriment are we putting to our heart? If that is the, that intention is very clear, if we know that we are practicing the path of renunciation if we know that we are practicing the path of purification, if we know that we practice from freedom from suffering, then those things what are we use? Spoon fork, what are we use hands are chopsticks. They are tools to support to bring nutriment to the heart. And that has been the most important shift in into way to see the practice see the traditions. Rather than trying to see which is better, which is worse. But how to really see oneself as a monastic as a son of the Buddha. See one's teacher as the Buddha. See one's teacher as tama and trying to connect with that teaching. Of course having more experienced Cullen AMITA good spiritual friends, of course referencing to the suttas Of course, checking and cross checking with other monastics and that becomes something very priceless really. When this The path that the monastic path is really led in the right way, in accordance with the teaching with the suttas with the karma with the truth, then there is nothing superior.

Host  45:23

So when you started to make this shift, I theoretically I follow what you're saying in terms of wanting to, I understand the metaphor that you used about the food and the instrument that's used and the attachment to the instrument, signifying as well like an attachment to the method or the tradition or something like that, and then missing the actual nutriment that's in front of you. If you can go one step further, I think what I'm missing is the practicality of that what does that mean, in a practical sense, as a as a meditator as someone working? How do you? How does that shift in thinking affect the way that you're approaching practice or actually engaging in practice?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  46:11

Well, the message is, is simple. I don't want to profess that let's say Mahasi is better than Aadhar. agencia is better than other than Pundi. tarama is better than Alder, a Truman is better than older, the old show tools. And it is not in the tools. But in the intention, why are we using the tools? What are we using the tools for? Let's say if someone is really dedicated, very clear with his path, even as a layperson, with he knows that he is practicing, he is really developing wisdom. If he's really clear with his own heart, then those methods can really click on the line and help. But if we don't, we are not reminded about this fact, then we can just waste a lot of time

Host  47:15

and how to be reminded by it you are you suggesting like a self questioning you would mentioned you'd use some prompts like, why am I practicing? Why am I doing this way? What is my purpose in meditation at this moment? Are there are teachers that advocate a kind of self questioning prompts that activate the mind is is it practically speaking? Is that what you're getting at? Or is it something more?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  47:41

Well, honestly, I've what I've found is really very, very, very, very helpful is to have good friends. Whether he is 40, was a teacher, or he's 20 was a teacher, or his your fellow monastic. But if you feel that this person is really doing it, and he's here along you in living for it is what works. I don't feel that in modern times, unless someone has really amazing merit and part of me that they're probably very few people who can do it, who can really practice correctly and effectively on their own. But with the support, they shared with cross checking with one another, and deep, deep sincerity and humility, then I do feel that it is certainly possible to bring this path to fruition.

Host  48:44

So for you the Dharma friendships are the most important part of of the of your practice.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  48:52

And yes and no, a yes. It is very important. And I could say most important, but to tell my friendships with a wise friend, I have friends with whom we can spend days or weeks in silence. What's rare, and is very clear, we know what what is our purpose very clearly. We are not meeting to chit chat. If we meet we share our experience. I've been very blessed and some of the monks or not necessarily monks met some of the friends they met over the past years. Some are very, very, very skilled in the samatha meditation. Some are skilled in Vipassana, some are very skilled in the forest dwelling. And I try to learn from I try to see potentially every being in my life as a teacher. If that is my support For who's really sincere and very generous. I see it as a teacher, I just opened a heart. And I'm just so grateful, because I met some really amazing people really so generous, so loving and compassionate. And being able to appreciate spoon over ice and being able to appreciate a rope. And being very sincerely grateful not only for the material requisite but seeing the goodness in others people actions. That is a very, very crucial part of our monastic training. And then when we have friends, like I shared about those two very, very disciplined Thai monks, they inspired me. And honestly, they're not monks anymore. But at that time, they were just this spark of inspiration. It still lives in my heart that I nourish, and I nurture and keep on marching with debt inspiration. And there have been some really great teachers sharing their experience of form of meditation, or venia, or Abbe Dhamma, all the factors. So, I tried to do a seated spiritual friendship is the opening of the heart. And being grateful to every every single being that has supported me so far. Since I became a mom, it just the gratitude to my parents, and the way we connect has completely transformed. And feeling how grateful I am to them because of how much difficulties they have to go through to, to bring up a child. How much difficulty it is for parents to support the child is not one week, it's not one month. It's like 1820 years. And there's a lot of work, a lot of money, a lot of patience, a lot of endurance, a lot of compassion, a lot of forgiveness. And we've we see, of course, a lot of suffering for them, because we all make mistakes. We all make them angry. And seeing that how much trouble is Brinks he had they do have compassion, they do have patience, they do have forgiveness, they do support that just opens the heart. Oh, wow. The gratitude is just a genuine feeling, not just a thought, but a genuine feeling that just expands the heart. And it is not difficult is actually very natural, from dead gratitude, to open up into metta into loving kindness into Karuna compassion, or mudita altruistic joy. Gratitude that is cultivated by being attentive and seeing all those causes and conditions. Parents, people who are good to us over the years and also those people who cause trouble who hurt us. You know, I'm very happy because if my life was perfect back in Poland, I would have never gone to Asia. But because of those imperfections it was yet another condition yet another push to move forward. Seeing did doesn't work. It's not it's not really it's not it.

Host  54:17

And you mentioned coming from a Catholic background when you started to get interested in Buddhism when you ordained originally with intentions were to be temporary and then as you continued wearing the robes and it was clear it wasn't temporary. How did your parents and your family respond to this?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  54:37

So when I became a monk a sorry, because there there's a lot of details to put everything in words. When I became a monk I invited my brother three months before that. He came and he ordained to go with me right at the same time and the same bonus to interesting younger older brother older brother So before that he he trained as a yoga teacher. He came, He ordained with me and we spent almost a year together. And then he had to go back

Host  55:12

as monks, you were both ordained for a year, you are both ordained for a

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  55:15

year. Interesting. So that was again, my big Baker, cause of gratitude. If he did not ordain with me or hadn't had he not ordained with me, then it would be difficult. But because he ordained, then at least I could when he came home, it's like the parents were. Okay, at least we have Michael back. So okay, you can stay at least we accomplished. Half of our intention. We just

Host  55:43

had one sibling. Yes.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  55:47

But it was the beginning. Yes. And again, I'm very grateful to my brother for that. But over the years, and my parents just started to seed it. It works. It just works. Whatever you're doing it, it works is it just makes you more happy. And it makes you kind of more pleasant to be with, when they saw that change in you the soda change, then they felt the change and as a shirt briefly into fuel pump and sicko, that our relationship actually unfolded in a much more natural way because of monkhood because of the practice, because of having space in the heart to really appreciate everything they did. And, of course, everything I shared a moment ago, it sounds very beautiful, but it is a result of all this kind of forest practice mindfulness. Sati Putana. I could go into details of that, but Well, it would we would spend here probably a long, long time.

Host  56:56

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I definitely realized that in the limited time that we have to talk about the depth of experience that you went through instruction, the effect it had on you. That's a little bit challenging to do. I do have some questions, generally to kind of learn the broad strokes. Actually, one of the things I'm interested in is your time in Burma and Thailand. Funny enough, it seems that a lot of meditators and monks, even though these cultures and countries are right next to each other few really spend time in equal places. It seems like you have more. The Burmese Yogi's and the the Thailand Yogi's and not so much crossover, you spent a lot of your time in Thailand and Burma. So I have some questions about that. The first one is just what are the differences that you noticed in the in the in the cultures and the monasteries and the practice?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  57:51

Well, I wouldn't say that I have equal understanding of both cultures. I lived in Thailand before and I speak the language. And basically also, the monastic life in Thailand is a bit more open. Even if we stay in very restrained monasteries, who strict venia but it's kind of feels more open Mirus my experience in Burma I have, I have not traveled anywhere. And my greatest to travel this nation was Shwedagon Pagoda, even though I've been here 20 times or more

Host  58:36

so you've never been outside of Yangon.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  58:39

Yeah, but go or some like Moby this place is just about an hour or two north of Yangon. Every time I come to Myanmar airport. And so Meditation Center, logged down, go back to airport.

Host  58:53

Why do you think that is that you've spent time traveling around Thailand but not around Burma.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  58:57

And well, when I come to Myanmar is in very, very specific intention. So I had a lot of invitations, but kind of when, when being in the meditation center when you're in this practice mood, and as someone says, Do you want to go to begonnen is like, no, no, no, I don't want to go anywhere. Whereas in Thailand, it's like, is more of a necessity was the kind of when when you arrive in Bangkok, and your monastery is in the other side of the country, or even two 300 kilometers away. You have to somehow get there. And some sometimes it's just sitting naturally unfolds. You sleep somewhere and away or you walk for a couple of miles. And even staying in the monasteries, there's sometimes like if we stay at a Thai forest monastery, we often go as a group to another forest monastery, or there are some Heritage's and So that is a bit different and also when it comes to the practice and the difference in the practice, Myanmar practice and the mother and Myanmar practice is much more structure iced, let's say to PA augmented everything according to V sooty manga, the four jhanas with 40, katanas everything everything according to Scriptures, everything step by step. You go to Mahasi you follow the seven we SUTI also, you have to go to the 16 Vipassana and Jana, US and everything is also step by step of precision. Okay, you separate mind and body. What does it mean? How you do it? How do you observe for elements? So everything is very, very specific and precise,

Host  1:00:50

are just going to as well would fall into that kind of structure.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:00:54

A bit, although I haven't found that level of precision in the right.

Host  1:01:00

It's like there is also structure because it is for laypeople. So it has a slightly different intention. It's a more modified version of how incredibly detailed something like Mahasi or or powerbroker?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:01:12

Yes, you can with going committed easily you can develop the same depth, but it's not kind of explicitly explained in this manner. So I found it very helpful to see oh, yeah, like he's really humbled me in the beginning.

Host  1:01:30

And of course Mogok to you can't leave mogao mogul because probably the top when you're talking about structure and theory, that's the top of the list.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:01:37

I didn't have much experience, I kind of I couldn't click with debt. So I don't have much experience with manga,

Host  1:01:43

it's hard to find any he was teacher too, with manga. It's the number one Burmese tradition but for a foreigner it's it can be inaccessible with the language.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:01:51

Yes, I heard about it, I had many good that I just couldn't, as you say I didn't have a good introduction to it. I can speak from I also don't like to speak from like secondhand knowledge, or I can speak from pork, because they spent some time with deer in Thailand and in Burma, and also of Mahasi. So they are much more precise, much more structure iced and Thai tradition is just the opposite. There is a structure but this structure is related to discipline, and discipline apart from the monastic discipline, also monastic, but it's not only the 227 rules of bhakti mukha. But the way of restrained the structure of the monastery. So like, my favorite monastery, it is also pretty strict. In Thailand. When when your wat is, you know, we have for example, we have cloths and you have one cloth that we use for cleaning the Buddha statue and cloth that we use for cleaning the table one cloth and we use for cleaning the furniture, and they are signed in Thai. And you have to take the cloth and use it just for this thing. We clean together for two hours a day, every afternoon we meet and there's this very, very strong discipline that is applied in actions. And it is just the it's completely different.

Host  1:03:30

Do you find that kind of practice in Myanmar monasteries?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:03:34

I haven't. I haven't either. I haven't. Even pork is has monastic discipline. But it is not. Not at all. It's different. It's just different. Yeah. So I found it. I found it very actually really great. Because being a Western nerd where someone tells you how to do it like this period, no question asked, that's refreshing, then immediately would domestic in mind say No, I know better. So over the years to cut this western conditioning, to be able to surrender and to actually see that if you're able not to resist anything. They say you come at three o'clock, if you start working at 259 is wrong. Because you're over eager. You want to show that you're better. So immediately cut, three o'clock start. And two, there's a lot of work with diligence and effort based on a really did physical activities cleaning, attending to your requisites. And that comes to the previous sharing. If that is supported with the intention, you know that you are here to cut the defilements you're here for liberation, then that's structure is just so wonderful.

Host  1:05:02

And you don't feel that structure, me and my monasteries.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:05:06

We can go back to medieval monasteries, there are other good and bad sides of both Sure. I'm just sharing if we have this intention, then destruction is wonderful if we not

Host  1:05:16

right, sure torture, and I didn't mean that as a value judgment, I just meant as a point of information, the structure that you're describing at the time monasteries, you don't feel that same sort of structure and discipline at Myanmar monasteries.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:05:26

I mean, as I shared, I've been to just a handful of places in Burma, there might be places like that. But to the point of those that are well known, I haven't met this kind of practice, this kind of 10 minute urgent Cha, forest practice, then, that I found that is the experience I had in Thailand, that is the value I see in Thailand. And the reason they shared it is also very simple. So if that is supported with the intention of you know that you're doing, you're coming to monastery to surrender, to really check your heart and work with your heart and abandoned defilements. Then every single thing that triggers your heart is your friend. If someone tells you you have to do like debt, yes, Ponte have correspond here. And then it's a great support. If you don't have this intention, if someone tells you, you have to do like it did shut up, I will not do I know I know better. So immediately if there's this intention is not there, then you're just wasting time because there's a lot of resistance. There's a lot of reactions. But again, if the intention is clear if we know why we do that, and it's way to system is mostly in my humble estimation for monastics I don't really see so much, yogi's in agencia monasteries. But for those who are really okay, I really want to cut the defilements I'm really, really whatever it takes, how many years how many, and how much effort, but I will not follow my past habits. I really, really work with my own heart and see any challenge any obstacle, then the practice is not structured, but it unfolds naturally with all those challenges with all the discomforts, with all the difficulties, and then it's really really solid. That's how you have all those you know, Kumbaya John, so those famous Thai teachers, and you see their spirit of like a fighter they really solid. Of course, Luke Bouman being the foremost that we know in the past century. So again, if that comes with the right intention is perfect. And yet any?

Host  1:08:01

Yeah, so you see the Thai monasteries, and we should actually specify, these are Thai forest monasteries, Thai forest monasteries themselves, our reaction to the Thai orthodox Buddhism, they're quite, quite different and quite distinct from the Orthodox nature of, of how Thai Buddhism has, has been carried out. But of these Thai forest monasteries, you see them developing a more more of a structure in the institution and the discipline and the Burmese monastery developing more of a structure in the meditation instruction and practice, would that be correct?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:08:35

And just simplify, yes, of course, there is a meditation instruction. But usually even if the teacher is really accomplished and really wise, he will say as little as possible and let you to sort out and honestly, irregardless, which tradition you're talking either regardless now for Burma, Thailand, irregardless, our best teacher is always the first Noble Truth is always suffering and dose. Teachers, those first teachers, they have this understanding so they have compassion too, not to give their hand too often but just let you suffer. It sounds cruel, but it is an act of compassion. If someone is really dedicated if they see you can do it, to let you push through your limits. Be patient be endear and only when it's the ripe and mature moment to offer you drop of clarity drop of help.

Host  1:09:39

That reminds me of the story when John semedo was a young monk without John Cha and he was being asked to do some menial task I don't remember what it was something you know, filling a hole empty and a hole filling it back up on a hot day and he was just walking around being frustrated and angry and full of negativity and just kind of stewing in that and then it One point on John Shaw came up to him, I might be misquoting parts of it, or I'm paraphrasing, of course, but my memory of it is John Shaw came up to him and said, you know, this suffering that you're obviously feeling? Is it? Is this suffering here in this monastery in this place? Because if it is, it's a very simple solution, you just have to leave here and you'll be free of that suffering? Or is this suffering inside you? Are you carrying it with you? Because if that's the case, then anywhere you go, it's not really going to matter. And that was one of the transformative moment moments and his young monkhood to realize the internal nature of the suffering. So it makes me think of that story. And as a follow up, I'm also wondering is, from I have much less experience at time forest monasteries, the I did stay at one once for a couple of months. And I've read quite a bit from the John's one of the things one of the features that I've heard as a teaching style of the Thai Forest Tradition, especially from Pico, Danny Xaro, has talked about it with his teacher, I think John Lee, it was, is this style of indirect communication and the role and the importance that this reminds me of what you said, about only giving as little as possible and nugget at a time at the right moment just to drop when you need it. But this sense of indirect communication, which puts the onus on the practitioner to discover and respond to things on their own, which I wouldn't say that's not a part of the Burmese tradition, but it seems like, if and I'd like to get your take on it in terms of the Thai Forest Tradition, it certainly doesn't seem to play as great a role here in this country is what I've heard about from the Thai Forest stories.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:11:47

Yes, so again, you're sharing from I can assume Edo and agencia is, is really spot on. It's really it doesn't matter. Where are we? What are we are monks, what are we stay in this monastery or that monastery, but this realization that, you know, it's not the hole that you're digging, that is creating anger is the heart and that he says it doesn't matter? Those realizations come? In Thailand and in Burma, in Thai monasteries, is encouraged to observe other monks who we believe they have superior qualities and learn from their experience as well. Let's say you have your John and you observe what he's doing, why is he doing and you're trying to sort it out. And dead soon, for some people is very effective. For some people, it works. In monasteries, where I stayed in Burma, there, if it is more about self restraint in a different manner. So you don't really observe other monks, you don't look at them, like in maha See, or even at Pollock, you do your finger and you return to your cootie. Right. And in this way. Yeah, that's why I shared earlier metaphor, there's no right or wrong method. I feel very, very, very, very blessed that I could try both, see the benefits of one see the benefits of another. Because when I stay for six months, or one year in Burma, when I returned to agentschap monastery, I see all those past mistakes that I was blind to, because I've been in those different cultures being into a different culture. And also because here is staying, let's say and doing this formal practice, sitting walking is slowing everything down. And suddenly going back to time monastery, when you have to move fast, you have to just go and just, you know, like, really go with this. And that is kind of these are two different ways. But they're not explicit if if we have the deeper and if we have more perspective on the Buddha's teaching, they're not explicit at all. They are a manifestation of the same practice and they are so supportive to one another. I feel if I had only one of those again, I don't encourage everyone that it has to be like that. No, maybe for some people go to one monastery stay there for for you know for a month or two retreat and it's enough for them to unfold a very deep and beautiful practice. For me having this you know, I I like to see it as we work with gold. If you work with gold, and if you put it into a hot, hot hot fire for too long. Is it good? Probably not. So you have to put it in fire, and then work with water. And then again with fire and then with water. And that's how you can remove the impurities from gold. And finally, you have this refined gold that is free from impurities, or at least partially free from impurities. And you can take this gold as malleable gold, and put in whatever you want to do. And debt, in contrast of having here a very strong discipline, practice, and then suddenly having discipline practice, but in a completely different attitude. They're both parts of self restraint are all developing purification of conduct, but from different angles, different sides,

Host  1:15:47

even when they appear contradictory at times. Yes, exactly.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:15:51

Externally, they seem contradictory. But internally, they are developing the same qualities,

Host  1:15:57

right, I'm thinking of I, I'm thinking of the Thai forest monastery I spend time with. And one of the methodologies there was they served one meal a day, and it was encouraged to eat the meal basically, as fast as possible. With the idea being that the faster you ate, the more was a sign that you weren't enjoying your food that you weren't spending time with it that you were getting it over with, and if you if you lingered, and when I say fast, I don't mean like, you know, eat, eat for don't spend an hour eating, you know, try to spend 25 minutes, it was really felt like less than 10 minutes to eat your one meal of the day. And, and that was and to do this as part of the practice not just as a blind marathon, but to do it as part of the practice and understanding that you're not developing a liking or relationship with the foods so get it over with. And, and it's interesting to contrast that with Mahasi, where it's the absolute opposite, where eating, eating fast is an immediate sign to the teachers and the fellow students that you're not being mindful that you don't know what you're doing that you're just an animal just trying to get down as much as possible that this is, you're not taking this eating time as part of the practice, you're, you're just performing a perfunctory motion to get back into something formal. And, and, and that, that slow eating and breaking down the bite in the food into and the mind states that accompany it. And that level of understanding is part and parcel of really understanding internalizing the practice. And I'm sure there's more examples like that, but it's, it's very interesting to see on face value, eat as fast as you can eat as slow as you can, both with a, a intention and intention of, of, of seeing the whole act of eating food of not not eating for enjoyment, or like an animal, but to, to to come out of this disliking of food one does it fast one does it slow.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:18:04

Yes, it's a great example of the difference. And I can tell you for monastics, because being a junior monk, apart from finishing the meal, you also have to finish a meal before the senior mind, right attending to right. So sometimes it would be eight minutes, and you have to immediately clean your bowl. Or at least leave the bowl aside, clean all the spittin tissues and all this stuff, and then be ready to attend to the Ajaan who's just about to finish his meal and take all his stuff, then with the two hands like with the two sets of bowling spittin then you go to the washing area and everything is in this rushed manner.

Host  1:18:48

So, you have eight minutes to eat your one meal of the day. Exactly,

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:18:51

exactly. And well. So, to put it to break it apart, now, what is the if you do it, you can do it with the perception of a Suba meaning developing disgust and really seeing how repulsive the food is, it is possible but it is not possible in eight minutes time to break apart food into four elements and see it moment by moment like with Mahasi style right? For example, in the time of Pandita Rama and his some of his some of me and my friends we practice at Pandita Rama we would eat two to three hours one meal one meal it was not more than food, more food, right so it's really exactly the same contrast you're saying to slow down to a point to really see arising and passing of materiality see arising and passing of intention. And to take the hard did really like think a stable stable stable lake like a still lake with no fluctuations. And with that level of equanimity, to reach for food with no emotion. And that is completely different practice when you break apart the mentality materiality, when you break apart the individual intentions, and that is how you can really purify from greed.

Host  1:20:19

So you're going from taking three hours to eat a meal, to eating that same meal and eight minutes that must be I'm what is that like, because does that feel schizophrenic sometimes when you're going from one to the other to remember the change the intention that that fast when you're, you're moving from one monastic culture to another.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:20:40

I mean, as a shared, for me, this has been very, very, very rewarding. And I feel very grateful and blessed that I was introduced to those.

Host  1:20:48

So it's an easy adjustment for you to go back and forth.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:20:51

No, I wouldn't say it's easy, easy it is. I mean, it's not very difficult. Because of the, I don't take breaks, I haven't had holidays in seven years, so to speak, holidays with the practice, whether it's Burma and this kind of practice, or whatever, this is an aeroplane or whatever this is Thai forest monastery, it is still continued continuity of the practice, deform changes, the speed changes to object change, but the practice remains, you just develop in your heart, you see, you have to practice, there's just no way. You know, we we are just like, drowning in the ocean of samsara. And the more we practice, we realize that if we don't swim, we drown. And once you get a glimpse of fresh air, at glimpse of a small raft of above the surface, then you don't stop. You don't stop rolling, you don't stop swimming, you just see necessity of dead. It doesn't matter if there are big waves. And you have to move very roughly like in agentschap monastery, or the seas very calm and you're just floating on the salty water like a Mahasi. And you just slow down and you take like 45 minutes to get to the dining hall. It doesn't matter. The speed is a perception and that perception is if there is concentration and mindfulness, there is no difficulty to to adjust from a moment to of one practice to another.

Host  1:22:32

say that's great, great answer. How about your experience as a foreign monk in these two countries, how have you been treated differently? Or when you meet locals, whether they're Burmese or Thai? Their approach to you or the at the monks at the monastery itself? How what is your what have you found the differences have been in these two countries and being a foreign monastic?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:22:57

Yeah, again, I have very little experience in Burma because being in Pandita, Rama Mahasi and even at Parc I kind of treat this time in Burma as a retreat style. And I try to not connect with with so many people so when and because I don't speak Burmese at all. Then I have very little to say in Thailand well we're in Thailand also in when we stay in forest monasteries. The culture is that the abbot is taking golden load of the contact with with the people. So we are kind of grateful for him to take this position take this responsibility and we just do our job we take it in bowl of art and teacher wash it and we disappear we go to our Cody's and then afternoon Tours The wonder just a group of monks. So it's it's kind of very nice like when you go to a forest monastery and like you see the list are 5060 monks. And if you come apart from the mealtime there's no one there it's just an empty monasteries like in the sutras. The when the supporters came like the lady came to visit a monastery and they see oh, well there's no wonder so what is happening Okay, are the monks here or maybe the have a quarrel? And then they see oh, yeah, but everything is cleaned. Everything is tidy. So perhaps, perhaps they are abiding in harmony and they're practicing. And but in those moments, Word. There's a necessity to travel or arrange visas or this or also when going to Europe and having some contact with Thai communities. Yeah, it's it's amazing how much faith people have are simple fingers. Simple as Pinto pot is just round. Yeah. Thank you for

Host  1:25:24

translating for people who may not know. Yes.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:25:29

Armstrong is just, you know, I remember when my father came the first time to Thailand when me and my brother were still monastics. And my father used to say like, why, why are you going to beg for food? Come on. You were an accountant, an English teacher, and jazz musician, and you could have a career and now you're begging for food. And he was, like, so sad. It's so sad. And then one day, he said, Well, okay, I go and see it. And by the time we returned to monastery, he was in tears. Why? Because it's so touchy. You see people who have so much generosity, so much compassion. I mean, when I go, I'm surrounded, and especially the first weeks, I would cry, even I restrained the eyes, etc. But to just feel that you just feel with your whole body, how sincere how faithful, those people are not faithful to you as a monk, but faithful to goodness, to the goodness and truth that this row represents. And debt is so powerful that immediately humbles us. Actually, the arms round is the topic in itself as a practice in itself. I feel it's like the unwritten SUTA and the written teaching of the Buddha. And he shared you monks go to the village, you have to be dependent, you have to do it every single day. Even if you're an arahant as the Buddhists call it in our hand, who would not go into VAT. So we go to the village and it immediately reminds us okay, we are dependent on people, we need people to support us, we are not allowed to stir up food, we are not allowed to cook. So we are dependent on those people. We are dependent on their kindness, generosity. And that really humbles humbles us very deep into heart. And is reminder every single day, every single household, every single spoon. On the other hand, for people who start their day waking up and think, you know, with thoughts, you know, we have the monks coming in an hour or two, and we have to cook fresh food for them. As this is what people do in Thailand. They don't serve the old food, they be served fresh foods. So someone has to wake up at four or sometimes 330 to cook fresh rice, even if it's only rice. But it's already like such a good intention that someone wakes up when we look in Western culture, oh, I wake up, okay, I have to go to gym, or I have to make my hairstyle or uh, you know, the Everything starts with I. But here suddenly, there are so many people who start their day with preparing food for us. And, you know, the culture and these invoke countries. Yeah, it did is immediately touching. And if you see those people, you know, they're like, after a few years, I started to do look at people bump into pot to really also connect with the culture. So you see those people they're sleepy, they're tired, they're cold sometimes. But they still do it and some of them they really get to get really touched. So that to that is just a such a mutual, I would say communion for us.

Host  1:29:26

Yeah. So this is a meditative transformative act that as a monastic well as a monk, because in many countries, nuns don't get this opportunity, but as a, as a monk, this is a part of your practice that many foreign meditators would not understand. So it's great to have such a description of it for those who've never worn the robes and how that affects the practice.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:29:47

I mean, every time every day when when doing an arms round, I actually see it it's it's so amazing that we can do it in 21st century when reflecting Were like who were where I came from, or some other foreigner monks where they came from like, busy cities and everything is suddenly you're here. And actually, I do like fintech. But I'm surrounded only in the villages, but also doing it in Yangon. It's kind of like, are in Bangkok that you can do it still in amidst the skyscrapers and traffic jams and you go there, like have your bowl. That's really that's it's one of the manifestations of a deep clarity of the Buddha.

Host  1:30:38

Yeah. And an observation I've had that's interesting is you look at these countries, Myanmar and Thailand, Myanmar is definitely not develop Thailand is somewhere along the way. Aska, economist to tell you where exactly but in other words, there's a lot of things in Thailand and a lot more than Myanmar in society. I'm a layperson living in, in Myanmar, there's a lot of things that don't work, there's, it's more often that something doesn't work than it does. And when you come with that, that that truth, that experience of living here, and then you see that they have to prepare this amount of food for this percent of the population that has to be ready exactly at this time. And it has to be offered precisely in this way. And it can't be late, even by several minutes, because then you'll miss the opportunity for them to get sustenance and for you to get merit. And it's really astounding, you know, I think a lot of people listening have had the experience of going to a non monastic meditation center. And many times while at that, Senator, if you're not a student, you're somehow involved in the food. I've done that more times than I can count, mostly at the VA passionate senators in the SM Blanca tradition. And you just spend a day trying to have you know, the, enough of trying to have lunch, ready to serve 270 meditators sitting the course, at 11 o'clock, where it doesn't even have to be served or offered in any way, it just has to be set out. And even if you're five or 10 minutes later, you could still manage, and you try to get that done and get it done in harmony. And it's I mean, after those 10 days, it can get some kitchens go better than others. But it can also it can be a little stressful. It's definitely a novel experience. And you think about this is the this, this sense of service and exactitude and routine is not something you you give to offer for a certain period of your life, but something that you and your family and the generations before you and the generations after you are going to commit to maintaining, and you're doing this in a country which so many other things don't work that really is truly remarkable. So when you come to Myanmar, it sounds like you're kind of you correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like your home base is kind of Thailand, you you ordain there. You speak the language, you've traveled more around the country. And you're coming to Myanmar for quite extended periods. But this is more of a trip away from perhaps where you feel feel more settled or more comfortable. That'd be accurate.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:33:19

Yes, I think it's a correct, correct explanation,

Host  1:33:22

right. And then when you come here to Myanmar, you might stay six months a year, maybe longer? What traditions are you doing here when you come on these visits?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:33:32

So actually, few days ago, me and my friends, we finished the we were doing a Dharma tutor course, the first kind of the first edition of the Mahasi Dharma tutor. And what is dharma? Duta? Oh, sorry. Yeah. Dharma to TA is the meaning of that is either Ambassador Otama, or the missionary right? The missionaries Nandu is the translation that is used, but it's not like you know, because of the nature of what Buddhist monks do is not really appropriate. Well, at

Host  1:34:09

Mahasi specifically, this is more of a big deal for the last 5060 years Mahasi particularly has been sending ambassador, missionary monks, however you want to call them to spread the Mahasi method and outside of Myanmar and to to train teachers and whatnot. So that's that's the Mahasi tradition, especially this is an important effect. Exactly.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:34:32

So that would and what Deadwood I've been doing for the past year here in Burma, so I spend a year kind of finalizing this training in Mahasi tradition in different monasteries and places and to so that was kind of a combination of the Abhidharma studies and SUTA studies. combined with the kind of refinements of the practice itself, and so that I feel as a close chapter right now that the curriculum of DiMasi tradition is finished, and I feel very at ease right now to go back to Thailand as well soon. When will you go back? And next month? Okay,

Host  1:35:28

and how long will you spend back in Thailand?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:35:31

At the present moment? I just planned it. I will stay for the next raid retreat afterwards. I have no plan. Right. Right. So it's, like six months ahead for sure.

Host  1:35:42

Right. Another question I have about the differences between Myanmar and Thai monasteries. Do you find different interpretation of some of the aspects of the vinyasa? But monastic discipline for monks?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:35:55

Who yes, certainly, yes. Even among the Thai forest monasteries, you can have some minor differences between one Monastery of the same tradition and lineage and other.

Host  1:36:08

But do you see cultural differences between things that are generally in Myanmar interpreted this way, and generally, in Thailand, interpreted this way,

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:36:16

there is a very simple example of an ALMS bowl. In Thailand, you are to put your arms bill on the floor, because it's the most stable part. So it's not going to fall in Burma, you put your arms bowl and the highest possible place, even if it's a small table. And this is in Thailand, considered against the monastic tradition against the venia because of the Hatha pasa. So the length of the saugata span the length of the kind of arm, from the edge of the table. Yeah, it sounds very complicated to explain. But in short, in Burma, they want to put the arms will as high as possible, even though there is a potentially can fall. But in Thailand, as they put it on the floor. So if I come from Thailand, and to Burma, and I put my arms bow on the floor, and it would be people coming and grabbing this boat, trying to put it somewhere, it seems sacred, right? And then for us being trained in Thailand is like this is wrong, I have an act of wrongdoing, I have to confess if gold is there, so what they're doing. And so that's when we have to be culturally sensitive, which is adapting.

Host  1:37:33

So you just accept that? Yes. Yeah. From my limited experience in Thailand, I had some other observations. I mean, one is just the shaping of the head that that the time monks often forced tradition, at least do it once a month and in Myanmar, once a month is seen as not enough. If you're starting to have more and more stubble, on your on your head then, even though strictly according to the Scriptures, that's allowable. Somehow it doesn't in the cultural interpretation and practice, you need to be shaving more often.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:38:07

Yeah, in Thai Forest Tradition, most of the places do it twice a month and day before or twice, okay. In the city monasteries, often is once a month. The importance is that they do it in the same day. And again, if you do it on the other day, immediately you get admonished. Why did you do it? Why do you want to be special Why not abide in accordance with the community. Whereas in Burma, you have freedom you can shave any day you want, as long as your hair is not. And of course, the Burmese approach is more in line with the actual venia is your business. But the Thai way, although it's not really in the vignette that you have to shave on the same day with all the monks. But this is part of the this monastic restraining tradition. It's a yet another aspect to just surrender to the monastery rules and to your teacher and to community.

Host  1:39:13

Sometimes you're surrendering to those at the expense of surrendering, surrendering to your understanding of the vinyasa, correct?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:39:21

Well, it's not against vinyasa that you shave together with all the monks. Sure, it's just it's not necessary to do it. But if you do it, then, you know, for example, in this forest monastery, and the agenda would always shave his head before the meal on the day before passata. And what what is Wisata? Oh, sorry, opposite is full moon or new moon day. Yeah. And so the agenda would do it before the meal. And all the other monks can do it only after a new meal. And if you don't know it, and you come there as a visitor, and you could do it before the meal, and there's just a John and you and It's like, immediately he's like, why did you do it? Why? Why you don't flow with the community. So it's not like you have to do this way. And this attitude that you have to do this way is wrong is wrong understanding. But you voluntarily surrender to community to see. What are you have any reactions? And there any again, chicken your heart and do if you don't like it why you don't like it? If you like it why you like it? And if you're indifferent, why are you indifferent?

Host  1:40:34

And of course there's the eyebrows too. Sure, yeah. So you shave your eyebrows there, you don't hear? Yes. And why is that different?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:40:44

There's just a lot of cultural mores, actually.

Host  1:40:47

And how about chocolate butter, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds? That's allowable in the Thai Forest Tradition, right?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:40:55

Yes, again, those are things that, like, I find a bit irrelevant. They're just so whatever is. These are basically just monastery rules, and we just accept it.

Host  1:41:13

Right? It's interesting seeing how the monastic code the vinyasa, the Buddha lay down is carried over throughout the centuries that followed, and how cultural institutions wrap around them. I've talked about this with a number of friends over the years, and we've mentioned how there can be a certain part of any, which is very clear. And yet, it's not followed by the cultural influence has it be minimized or not followed or interpreted in a creative way, which is looser and more relaxed. And yet there can also be the alternative example of a cultural rule which has become more formalized, more strict than actually what's in the vinyasa. And, and is, is requiring, if not a written rule and unwritten rule of monks following a more strenuous practice. And so there's some things that there's some parts of the vinyasa that that are, are very clear that in trying to practice the culture doesn't give preference and actually make it harder to follow it while there's other things that you are following the letter of the vinyasa, but by cultural standards, you're being careless or not a good monk. And so this thing can go both ways, depending on how the cultural tendencies have come and looked at it.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:42:33

Yeah, well, I tend to see vinyasa as kind of the Buddha created it for us, monks, is our reflection. And if we, I see, it's possible easily. I've been able to keep the venia in Thailand, in Burma, and even when going back to Europe. You know, I remember in the first wasa me, my brother, and Ashley, Sarah, Anna, were the only three monks eating one meal and not using mani and really staying with those simple simple rules and suggestions. So we kind of had a vignette Club, where it was, it was

Host  1:43:16

very remember, yes.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:43:19

But so I see it as a kind of, it's a tool for us to reflect, to see to really check. And I tend to not really involve what others are doing. I don't, especially you know, being sometimes in Burma, sometimes in Thailand, I don't judge other monks, I don't try to convince someone that this is better or not. Otherwise, even with a simple example of the arms bulges exhaust myself, I just see, can I accept that? This is also correct. I'm in different country, if I try to do if I try to be a Thai monk in Burma, I will just suffer and I will make others suffer. Can I just if that is something minor as putting the bowl here or there, if it's still in a line with the intention of the rule, it's fine. So and also like, you know, because there are different things, as you said, they're highlighted in this culture and in this culture when so you can so staying here and seeing that some things have blind spots here in Burmese, monastic culture. I just check, do I have judgments? If I have judgments, I suffer, it doesn't matter if what they're doing is right or wrong. And that's the fundamentals of the practice. Like you said, with the digging the hole. If I get angry, I suffer if I don't get angry. Well, that's no problem. It's just the fundamentals of the practice. Do I well Want to correct everyone and teach everyone? Or do I just want to practice for liberation? Here in this moment, can I abandon this perception, this judgment and see if my own actions are correct and my own actions are good. And to you that is very basic, very, very basic, very difficult to do honestly, very, very, that is, again, a simple statement, you know, don't judge others. But to do it, it comes with all those tools, you have to have a lot of discipline, self discipline, you have to have mindfulness, you have to know your feelings, you have to know your emotions, you have to know how painful is to judge someone, you have to feel the feeling, understand the pain of anger, to finally decide no, I will not take this hot burning rod again, I don't just sorry, I prefer to be invisible monk in the monastery rather than trying to fight with everyone. And that is very, this is really liberating to finally you see, well, do I prefer to have a good heart or good venia?

Host  1:46:14

Yeah, and I guess that's one of the advantages of moving back and forth between these drastically different monastic cultures. It's interesting, they're both following a Theravadan practice and the core principles are identical in both, but the way they're carried out is really quite different when you have that experience. And I think if you're just in one of those cultures, then you can flow with the sense of how to say the unquestioned assumption of righteousness and correctness that everyone around you is supporting, that never has you look at something different. It's kind of like if you're living in monastic practice aside, if you're living in one country, and you grow up with that culture, and believing the same set of unexamined beliefs, and then you go to a very different country, and you're very different culture, and you're confronted with things that you never really considered one way or the other, because everyone was following one way, as you move from one monastic cultural environment to another, there's this flow of unexamined assumptions that are part and parcel of what the practice should be this and only this. And then when you're in that novel environment, they have a different set of overlaps on to the way the practice should be, which sometimes can be a direct conflict, and you're the fish swimming from one to the other that has to that can be that that could feel like an outsider. But you're having to make yourself comfortable internally and externally with this vastly different culture that actually has the same internal set of motivations and objectives. Yeah,

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:47:57

I just need to see sadhu and applaud you for this reflection.

Host  1:48:02

Is that correct? I want I don't want to put words in your mouth. So he's very good is

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:48:05

very nice. Actually. Yes. He's very good. Yeah,

Host  1:48:11

it also makes me think, as I as I think about this analogy, the word that keeps coming to mind is disruption. So you're intentionally consistently disrupting your life. When you're, when you're in one tie, forest, monastic environment, you're settled in to the codes and contacts and unwritten rules and assumptions and everything else. When you remove yourself that to go into a different environment. You're disrupting everything, even if it's Theravada, Buddhist and monastic environment, you're still disrupting a lot of those unwritten codes and then having and then through that disruption through that confrontation, having to do some kind of deep examination, some deep internal examination of where this is coming from. And another way to approach the Dhamma, whether it's fast eating or slow eating, and all the other things that go into it, some of these unquestioned assumptions of rules that are not spoken can take, it's not like it's just like, oh, this is what they do here. That's what they do here. Now I see that now I'll adapt myself. It's not like that. Sometimes it can take days, weeks, months, even years to even pick apart what these unexamined assumptions are. I know that very different from you coming from many, many many Glinka courses were passionate of courses and having one set of structure that I was comfortable in and then seeing the way that Burmese Buddhist monasteries ran, and the the multi year long process of unpacking these assumptions and protocols in the two environments. That was not evident. You know, there was some kind of disruption some kind of confrontation inside taking place, but it takes a long time to work out exactly what it is.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:50:01

Yes, so my only comment is, it's not that staying in one tradition, one place is wrong, right. Because if someone is doing it correctly, if someone is really mindful that he should be able to pick up his attachments to those tools, let's see attachment to his teacher attachment to his monastery attachment to the venia attachment to, you know, eating fast attachment to, or you know, attachment to eating. So attachment to, you know, Burmese robes attachment to, all those things need to be let go of, is like the Buddha shared with the simile of the snake at if you grab, if you want to catch the snake, and if you grasp it, and detail, he's going to bite you. But if you take a stick, and you catch him by his hat, then he's not going to bite you. So in the same way, the Buddha said that his Dhamma needs to be taken with wisdom. And he shared even the Dhamma has to be let go off, let alone the non Dhamma. What it means it doesn't mean that you don't practice venia that you don't care about your teacher don't care about your tradition, that cetera. But you flow with it. Like you flow with it without getting stuck without getting entangled. And that is tricky. Honestly, it is very tricky. That's what creates a distinction of someone who's really practiced and usually practice for lifetimes, that he's able to come to monastery, take those valuable tools, and whether he's staying in one monastery or two or three or 30. But he is applying this basically known attachment. It is this is our advantage of being Westerners. And you as a layperson probably experienced that you come from states, you come to Burma and suddenly you start to see your American conditionings. And the longer you stay, the more you start to see oh, yeah, how stupid it is. Sorry, but it's for every culture. You I don't feel Polish anymore. Yeah. And I can tell you last week, we were speaking with monks from Argentina, from Germany from America from some also some like a Chinese or Eastern European and, and suddenly I just realized, you know, we spent a year to get her I don't even I forgot where are you from? Because we can we just, we come together we practice together when we share download we share in English. And I don't really see you as different nationalities as I don't see my heart as different nationality. And when I go back home, I suddenly see oh, wow, all that conditioning. And I already I don't have this kind of Polish conditioning in my heart. I don't feel polish, I don't have those habits related to being Polish because of staying here and really absorbing the downline to heart. And it's the same with monastic culture, if we have to learn. But we develop the qualities we develop, per me, we develop mindfulness concentration, ultimately, for the fact to be able to disentangle everything disentangle every attachment. And it is it is imperative at a certain level of practice, to abandon your attachment to your family attachment to your friends, attachment to your teacher attachment to your monastery attachment to your country, attachment to the country of your ordination, you have to let every thing go. But what does it mean? You know, the more I can let go of attachment to my parents, the better our relationship is, because I don't see gain from them. I see them not because I have to see them. I don't I see them because of the natural flow of gratitude and compassion. And the less of grasping from them there is the more pure the relationship is then the last grasping and glass pushing. Suddenly, it's as what I shared earlier that our relationship with parents is better because of the practice because of all this, you know, monastic exchanges and all this cross cultural, which is checking cross checking to disentangle any and all tangles in the heart I just brought the parents example. So, we don't get again saying okay you have to let go of your family. So, I will not speak with them and that is a very common Western approach all or nothing, I will never speak with my parents because I will be, you know, i i

Host  1:55:20

Yeah, I am detached, I am detached, exactly.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:55:23

But what did the Buddha to the Buddha developed the practice, of course, too much different in deeper degree. And but why did the Buddha developed a practice? He was staying in the palace, he looked at his wife, and he asked himself, what does he has to offer to her? You know, he had a past life connection with her a lot of lifetimes. So, certainly there was a very strong emotion. He, it wasn't that he didn't care about her. But he wouldn't does he has to offer with the seeing the aging, sickness, and death, he realized that he cannot offer stability to her wife, he cannot offer stability to her child. And when he left the palace, it was not as selfish. I want to be free, but he wanted to seek for the medicine for all the sentient beings. And he had wisdom after awakening that he knew, no, I will not go back home. I will seek for those who have little dust in your eyes. Those who are struggling to are striving for really begging for a drop of water in the desert, who are ready to receive his water and drink it and who will accept it to their heart. But after the Sangha was established, he did go back home, he did help his wife, he did help his son, he helped his father. And he also helped his mother into heavenly realm. So we know the Buddha didn't, was not a cold hearted person who said no, I don't care about my family contrary, He put all his effort. He spent days and days in the last days of his father's life, to bring him to our handshape really caring for him in sickness, it must have been very difficult, very, very difficult. And what we know from the scriptures that did last moments, he was successful, and his father finally understood how he he did not understand why the Buddha left the palace. Finally, you have this realization here for clarity he he could see what what the depth of what his son was doing for all the sentient beings. So detachment is detachment from everything, including detachment. Yeah.

Host  1:58:16

Well said, one final question to wrap up. Tell us about favorite place that you've meditated at before.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  1:58:28

Oh, this is very, very easy question. The favorite places in the heart, unquestionably. It really doesn't matter. If one practice is some of the meditation is very easy. Just switch off the five senses, and the Biden bliss of concentration. And you can do it anywhere. You can do it at the airport. You can do it on the airplane. You can do it in the deep forests. You could do it in the beautiful scenery, you can do it in the slumps. And we Vipassana is actually the likewise, it's even more fun, because we pass on that can be developed while moving. You can separate the mind and body while walking around while doing your daily chores. And you can maintain the depth, the stability while doing normal things. You can do the daily chores with mindfulness and concentration. Stay at the heart and taking the stability of the heart as your primary focus in objective. taking to heart as a measure. And when the heart doesn't move It really doesn't matter. There is no place anymore. There is no Thailand Burma, there is no monastery, there is no monk. And if there's no place and there is no monk How can we there nev?

Host  2:00:23

Thank you very much. Any final things you want to add?

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  2:00:28

No, unless you have any questions,

Host  2:00:30

no, thank you so much for coming, hearing about the intensive schedule, you keep that you've kept for this amount of time for you to devote an afternoon to coming here and making time for this conversation for sharing your words and experience, not just to me alone in this room that at the moment where we are now. But when this comes out to the hundreds and likely 1000s that will end up listening to it and be inspired by the path that your journey has taken and sharing these very private and personal things that you've developed over the course of your spiritual development. I think that'll be very refreshing and helpful for people in different situations, to see how they can apply for their own life and decisions.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  2:01:18

Yeah, so the last vote would be, you know, I shared about those two monks, and that I met just before the ordination to forest monks. And I sold her practice and therefore, it's impossible. And I see not only it's possible, but every every being determined is universal. Everyone who's the more someone is open, the more one is opening his heart to this Tama of the morality concentration inside will, in general to the whole practice, the more one is open, the more easy it is. For one who's really open and devoted to this practice. There is no impossible it is just continues work to overcome any obstacle, any challenge, any fee, because this tama is to transcend the whole world. So if I were to give any message is really trust in the Dhamma take refuge in the Dharma. And if you do it, you just do it, you just continue doing it and you reap what you sow. The more you apply sincerity, humility and effort, the more freedom you find in your heart. And well, that's about it. It's very simple, very straightforward. And, as they say, to be experienced, personally by to ice,

Host  2:03:07

thank you very much and best wishes with your rest of your stay in Myanmar in your upcoming journey.

Pabhassaro Bhikkhu  2:03:14

Thank you. And I also I'm very grateful to you for for what you're doing for both this project of the podcast but and also all the projects that you do to support Adama. And to make it a ton more available to the English speakers and Westerners. Thank you, thank you

Host  2:03:39

I'll be honest, not only is asking for donations, my least favorite thing in the world to do, I find it pretty uncomfortable as well. Yet it is an unavoidable but necessary task in order to ensure that our platform can continue to bring you stories from postcode Myanmar. And unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that there is a basic minimum cost to keep our engine humming. So please allow me to take a moment for that least favorite and uncomfortable thing to do, and ask sincerely for your generosity in supporting our mission. If you found value in today's show, and think others might as well, we ask that you take a moment to consider supporting our work. Thank you for taking the time to hear our spiel. And with that, it's off to work on the next episode. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are being impacted by the military coup, we welcome your contribution in a form currency or transfer method. Your donation will go on to support a wide range of humanitarian and medium missions, aiding those local communities who need it most. Donations are directed to such causes as the Civil Disobedience movement CDM families of deceased victims, internally displaced person IDP camps, food for impoverished communities, military defection campaigns, undercover journalists, refugee camps, monasteries and nunneries education initiatives the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies COVID relief and more. We also make sure that our donation Fund supports a diverse range of religious and ethnic groups across the country. We invite you to visit our website to learn more about past projects as well as upcoming needs. You can give a general donation or earmark your contribution to a specific activity or project you would like to support, perhaps even something you heard about in this very episode. All of this humanitarian work is carried out by our nonprofit mission that are Burma. And the donation you give on our insight Myanmar website is directed towards this fund. Alternatively, you can also visit the better Burma website better burma.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause in both websites except credit card. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me/better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and Cash App. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to these respective accounts or email us at info at better burma.org. That's better Burma. One word, spelled ve T T E R B urma.org. If you'd like to give it another way, please contact us. We also invite you to check out our range of handicrafts that are sourced from vulnerable artists and communities across Myanmar. Available at a local crafts.com. Any purchase will not only support these artists and communities, but also our nonprofits wider mission. That's a local crafts spilled a l o ke crafts one word a local crafts.com Thank you so much for your kind consideration and support.