Transcript: Episode #81: Artists Against Tyranny
Following is the full transcript for the interview with these guests, which appeared on December 9, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Host 00:03
FROM ALL OF US HERE AT insight Myanmar podcast, we'd like to welcome you to this virtual art auction. your support and your presence here today means so much to us. And of course, even more importantly, to the Burmese communities that you're supporting. I would like to take a moment to express my full appreciation for these wonderful artists from around the world who have shared their creation for this event. from music to photography, from handicrafts to painting, from dance, the digital realm, you've provided the best that you have to offer. And we thank you for that. First, let us also take a moment to reflect on our contemporaries in Myanmar, where we know there has long been a thriving art scene. And today, these very artists have been at the forefront of the protest movement, as their voice and vision gives inspiration to the resistance. They're creating at a pace and with Iran tensity like never before. And never has their role been so vital, nor their freedom so constricted. Today in Myanmar, artistic ability is no protection against a terrorist state. And celebrity of any kind is far more liability than a protection these days. Yet even with these risks, Burmese artists are not backing down. And their courage to continue producing their craft, even under these conditions is something we can only regard with ah. So to those artists contributing in today's auction, I thank you for using your freedom and safety to create and share on behalf of your Burmese brothers and sisters, and for your willingness to stand in solidarity with those fellow artists that are not safe, and whose very work puts them at risk. Now a brief word for all you prospective buyers and virtual window shoppers. Welcome. Thank you for coming to check out this scene. Merely the act of staying informed and bearing witness is so important at this time. I know how busy many of us are. And just the fact that you have decided to spend part of your day browsing this heart and contemplating what it represents. It indicates a concern and a willingness to engage. And I thank you for that. Terror thrives in the shadows. And believe me, the generals are hoping that we will all soon get tired of this story and just get on with our lives. Your presence here today is a tacit agreement to keep this story in your hearts. Please continue to educate yourself on what's happening in Myanmar. And for anyone interested in audio interviews, I invite you to take a listen to our recent episodes from insight Myanmar podcast. Finally, for those of you bidding on the art, a heartfelt thank you. I'm happy that you'll manage to get not only a beautiful but also a meaningful piece of art. But I'm even more grateful that these accumulated funds will go towards those communities in Myanmar in such great need at the moment. The proceeds from this art auction will be dispersed widely to help many not limited to region background, ethnicity or religion. It will go to support those civil servants refusing to work as part of the civil disobedience movement or CVM. As well as to purchase medical supplies bring food to impoverished areas. support families of those murdered on the street help materials encouraging defection from the military and much much more. And to those who did not make a winning bid on one piece of art. I invite you to consider offering the donation which will be applied to the same fund. The window of freedom is still open just a crack in Myanmar, but it's closing fast. At this moment, everything we do matters. every action, every engagement every donation. Whatever we can do to maintain the momentum and increase morale keeps the Burmese people free for one day more. Thank you. He
Brad 04:13
Ay, ay, ay ay ay. Ay T. My guest today is Mimi, a, a noted normal food writer in the UK who opens up to us about the role of food in connecting to and experiencing culture, the complexities of growing up with dual identities, and the role of art in revolution and social progress. So you grew up very much as Burmese. But you grew up in the United Kingdom, sort of straddling different cultures one foot in the Burmese identity, one foot in the UK identity. Can you tell us a little bit about what that's like? And how you relate to those different parts of your past and your identity?
MiMi Aye 05:29
Is it's difficult. It's a bit. It's a bit like feeling like you don't know who you are. A lot of the time. I mean, I'm, I'm in my 40s. Now, and I still kind of on any given day, if someone says, Are you Burmese? Are you British? I'm not entirely sure what the answer should be or is. I mean, I don't know what that was obviously, dictated by the fact that my parents, even now even though that they're in their 70s, are still convinced that we all go back to Burma to Myanmar, and live there as one big happy family. We were the only people from their family who left the country. And ever since I was little, it was where we spent most of our summers going back to see my grandparents can see my aunts and uncles and my many, many cousins. And it was it was just something where I, I felt like it was normal to be in two different worlds, and to switch from one language to the other. But sometimes, you know, the boundaries blur. And sometimes I'd be at school here. And I'd realized that I wouldn't know how to express myself in English, because there was a concept that only afterwards, I realized I knew existed in Burmese. And so I'd be like, what's that word? That means this and then I describe it using many, many words to one of my school chums. And that's cool. Someone would say, we don't do that in English, or that's not a constant we have here. It's kind of it's not even kind of vocab, or culture. It's even concepts that would get muddled and mixed up and, you know, be quite fluid, I guess.
Brad 07:05
I mean, definitely, sympathy, I assume, on a day is a is a slightly difficult concept to, to capture in English
MiMi Aye 07:13
as definitely one of the primary ones. I mean, even recently, on social media, I was having a conversation with a whole bunch of people, some of whom are babies, some of whom are not, but all of them knew that the idea of Arada because they had connections to Myanmar, and we were trying to settle on how we would describe it. And I think we finally came up with feeling obliged. But even that it just doesn't quite capture the nuance, you know?
Brad 07:39
Yeah. I always said pre emptive guilt and inconveniencing someone.
MiMi Aye 07:44
Yes. That yeah, that exactly. It's a good thing. It's like, sometimes you just want to go, you know, like there's a German word that means that exact concept, the German word, and he has two syllables, I want that they want that.
Brad 07:58
quite logical. But so speaking of mouthfuls, food is clearly important to you. I mean, you run a food blog. So growing up, I presume much of the fare at home would have been traditional Burmese food.
MiMi Aye 08:12
Yeah. So in the US, when I was growing up here in the UK, we used to get power cuts quite a lot, nothing like you'd get in Burma, obviously. So every so often, I think it was just the electricity board just being terrible. And so you'd have like, the whole street would go out, but the next street over would be fine. And I used to quite enjoy that. Because it was the only time we got to have fish and chips. Because otherwise my mum was that classic. I can cook better than that I can do that at home. So we would either have Burmese food or Burmese version of a Western dish. So like even if we had pizza, my mum would cover it in like dried fish and chilies and garlic and everything. Which is great. But at the same time, I really wanted to just have some not McDonald's.
Brad 09:01
Did you have a nappy at home? Or?
MiMi Aye 09:03
Oh, yeah, definitely. No, no, no, no, no, he is definitely very important. I mean, this this kind of saying that you can't be properly Burmese if you don't like not be.
Brad 09:14
I mean that. I mean, that's a really important point. So you clearly identify very strongly as as Burmese. And you've clearly kept all of these sorts of trappings. So food. Would you agree that food is a very important elements of identity? It's a very important way to connect with identity and preserve it and carry it on to the next generation.
MiMi Aye 09:37
Oh, definitely. I mean, I think food is probably the last thing that people lose a lot of the time. I have friends who are not Burmese but from different cultures who say that the one connection they have with their family in their heritage is the cuisine, because it's it's relatively easy, but also it's something that flame fires all your senses, your sense of taste. Your sense of smell. Very, very nostalgic, very triggering. You know, people talk about how their grandmother used to make this dish for them. And that's their last memory of their grand grandmother. So, yeah, no, no food is just incredibly powerful. For whatever reason, and you know, they go on about how breaking bread with people is something is the way to come to a truce to, to actually, is one thing. So in the last book I wrote, I wrote a Burmese cookbook and I talked about the significance of Lapeyre. Being You know, the people T, and Lapeyre. It used to be used to broker truces between warring kingdoms in Burma. So you would literally get like the leader of one kingdom, not another king sitting down and sharing, sharing LAPACK just say, actually, we are no longer at war. So yeah, food, food is important in every kind of level of life.
Brad 10:53
I mean, it really does transport you in a way. I mean, the way I think you've captured it, it's nostalgic. And it's, it's sort of like, you can look at family photos. And you can say, I see myself in this photograph, but I have no memory of this event. I don't know who these people are. But suddenly you can smell something or you can taste something. And even though you don't know how it connects, your brain immediately tells you this was significant to us some time. And this, this is familiar, and it is important. And I agree, it really overpowers senses that we don't, we don't respect enough
MiMi Aye 11:28
anatomy, it doesn't. It doesn't even be food it can be like connected to food. So there is this, this one smell that I really strongly associate with Mogo, which is my mother's hometown, which is near the Shan State. And basically, it is the scent of bonfires. And it's very funny because like in this country, obviously, because I'm in the UK, when other people smell bonfires, they think of fireworks night. You know, they think of Guy Fawkes and all that, whereas I think of traveling in a dilapidated old Jeep up to the mountains, to my mother's hometown. Because what we do is we'd stop off at like a little kind of street side or not street side, mountain side store. And they'd have all kinds of soups and noodles, and just a big bond by like, it was all charcoal, and you could just smell everything burning. And that scent. As soon as it hits my nostrils. All I can think of is mocha and my mom's hometown. So yes, very, very powerful.
Brad 12:25
And your Mago itself, has seen a lot of very heavy fighting. Since the coup, there have been there have been some really horrific episodes that have taken place there. And you clearly still have very strong connections to to the country, and you have very emotional connections, but also family connections, personal connections. So in that context, how do you how do you respond to those voices who say that people who have left the country and are no longer living in the country don't really have the right to have an equal say, in how the democracy movement should move forward in the current context?
MiMi Aye 13:04
I mean, equal say, definitely, I agree with them. I don't think we do have an equal say, because we're not on the ground. We're not personally affected by what's happening. However, you know, if you still have family and friends there, as I do, as many people do, I think, it's it's only fair that we get to say something about what's happening, because apart from anything else, it kind of makes you a bit of a monster, if you don't care about what's happening to your own people. I understand that a lot of people have kept quiet for the reason that they're afraid that it would endanger family and friends that are still in Burma. I mean, that's absolutely fair and right, because, you know, you don't want to, it's okay for us to put our heads above the parapet here. But if that means that they can connect you to, you know, an aunt and uncle, a brother or a sister or you know, someone on the ground, and they end up going to prison, because you've said something, then obviously, yes, I understand that completely. On the other hand, if there's stuff that you can say that might make a difference to the people on the ground, and I think you have to, you know, even if it's things like sharing a petition, saying, Please, can you ask the UN to recognize the national unity government? You know, this is something that we have, we can do, that people in Burma in Myanmar can't necessarily, especially when, from about the start of the coup to about, I don't know, seven, eight months later, the government not sorry, not the government, the regime was literally shutting down internet access. So they were kind of cutting communication thrusting the people in the country into darkness. And so it's not even that we have a right to say something outside the country. I kind of feel like we have a duty to say something because we're the only people that can But God forbid that we you know, supplant The voices within the country, because obviously, they're the ones that matter, they're the most important. But you know, for example, I've been given the opportunity a couple of times to write pieces for Time Magazine. And when they asked me, Would you like to write about what's happening over in Myanmar, I made it very clear that I was not doing it as someone who was an expert, I wasn't doing it as someone who knew what was happening on the ground. I was doing it as someone outside the country, using whatever kind of background history emotions that I have as a member of the diaspora. And that's what they would be guessing. And I wanted to make that really clear. And, you know, they were happy for me to do that. And that's what I did. So yeah, no, I think if you're not, if you're, if you're a member of the diaspora, and you can make a difference, I think you do have a duty to try. But at the same time, yeah, we should we shouldn't be replacing, or, you know, centering ourselves in this fight, because it's not our fight that we can actually, you know, take part in directly.
Brad 16:07
Absolutely. And I think you've touched on a very important element, that I mean, that there are so many things that although there are people on the ground in the country who are fighting very hard, in in many different ways, and putting themselves at significant risk, there are many things that they cannot do. So, for example, raising money and raising awareness, it's something that is reasonably difficult to achieve. If you don't have a sizable platform, if you don't speak dominant languages of the West, if if you don't have access to a lot of even just the financial amenities that we have in the West. So with that in mind, I want to to move on to the the role that something reasonably simple can play in, in fighting against dictatorship and fighting for freedom, because, as you pointed out, you know, people, people can be in danger just for speaking words have power. And the military recognizes this. That is why they come down on people who, who speak out against them. And I think one of the, one of the unsung heroes of, of revolution and of subversion and of societal progress is art, realistically. Now, do you have any thoughts on the role that art has played historically, in Burmese society and culture, in pushing for progress and fighting against oppression?
MiMi Aye 17:39
I mean, the, the military has had a long history of suppressing artistic creation, of suppressing anything that might be seen as sedition. We were very used to censorship in Myanmar with all the books that you had in the country, if they were from abroad. They were genuinely smuggled in I remember my parents taking stuff in their suitcases written by you know, Western minds, or even not even Western minds, but Burmese people that would be viewed as dangerous within Myanmar. So they would take these books and they would smuggle them and they'd be passed around and they'd be photocopied. And, you know, it was very much a situation where, if you wanted to discuss stuff, even even stuff that was like a metaphor for what was happening, you had to be very careful and guarded in how you spoke. You know, my, my family is a family of writers. Within Myanmar itself. One of my great aunts was Lulu da Ma, who was, was a famous writer and dissidents. And she and her husband have had both been political prisoners because they had spoken out and written stuff had been deemed dissident, an anti government or anti anti Hunter. And I remember that my great aunt actually said near the her retirement, I guess she she was kind of fed up of the fact that everything was so censored and controlled, and she was kind of she'd been pushed into a position where she was having to write fiction, you know, and folktales and you know, about stuff that was deemed safe and proper, and, you know, wouldn't get her thrown into prison as an old lady. You know? So, so yeah, this is this is just something that has always been working. They were they're kind of pop bands or rock bands who've had to put out two versions of their songs because the lyrics in one version were deemed anti government anti Haunter. So it's a fine line that's been tried for decades, basically. And so So yeah, no, it's Art has always been something that's been there to try and inspire people and you know, keep people spirits up, even when there wasn't a full blown kind of fighting and oppression? Right. And it's always been something that people have been passing around in the shadows and worried about because it might be considered something that you would get you thrown out or imprisoned.
Brad 20:22
I mean, absolutely. And, and I think it's not just, you know, being being exiled or being imprisoned. You know, as you've you've mentioned before, I mean, there are very serious consequences for subversive art for for writing or for criticizing the government. I mean, people, as you've pointed out, before, people have been killed for this very,
MiMi Aye 20:47
there were three three poets who will shot qaisar when Julian and get the they were all poets, very powerful poets who have all been murdered by the military hunter in this current revolution.
Brad 21:04
And I mean, that's it's harrowing. I mean, this revolution has been going on for a little bit more than 10 months, not even a full year. And the death toll itself is so high, but that within that time, they set aside time and effort to hunt down artists, because the words intimidate them so much. And because they understand the potential power that words have. It's, yeah,
MiMi Aye 21:29
words and pictures, because these are the things that can be disseminated across the country and also, outside the country. This is the stuff that they try to contain in little boxes, but they can't you know, you know, what's more powerful than an image or, you know, we mentioned, Mogo, my mother's hometown, one of the one of the things that I was kind of overwhelmed by is the fact that we're talking about professional artists, but we're also talking about people who may never have engaged in this kind of creativity before but you know, in Mogo, they did kind of like a human display, they, they wrote out the spelt out the word CDM, Mogo using their bodies, say like that the hometown, the hometown, that there was an aerial shot of them kind of sending this message out to the rest of the world. And, and, you know, other things that have been happening again, across the country, but also the diaspora have been trying to support is all these kind of strikes that they've been doing specifically artistic strikes. So you'd had flower strike in Myanmar, which was where people held up the three finger salute, but they had in there were holding like a floral display of some sort. Or, you know, even things like the leaf strike when that was kind of around about Green Day strike, I think it was when people wrote their messages on like big banana leaves and palm leaves. And again, it was kind of an even, you know, we're talking about food, there was a food strike where the there's a new year dish called mono cable, which is like the kind of rice balls in jaggery. And people were using these rice balls to create pictures of the three finger salute, or create messages saying we need support or save Myanmar using food, you know, so these displays are obviously incredibly eye catching, you know, a picture tells 1000 words, right. And so I was seeing it everywhere I was seeing it being shared by people who I didn't even know knew way back or even is because it spreads so widely and so powerfully that people are struck by imagery. And this is what the military is terrified of the fact that imagery, poetry. Art is so powerful, it can spread so wide. And they can't contain it and they want the container.
Brad 23:57
Absolutely. And and that's really what I what I wanted to talk about here is the role that art plays in the current revolution. And I think there is something to be said for the art of the 88 revolution. We see for example, a lot of the songs that are being sung are songs from the Iliad revolution ganzhou by nine my MA is being sung at so many martyrs funerals, for example. So that's Do you have any thoughts on on the continuation of that legacy?
MiMi Aye 24:31
Yeah, I mean, it's it's not surprising because you know, this the whole thing is a it's a cycle, isn't it? You know, we've had I've lost track is it three four Cousteau? And it's like the the generations are being hit by the same nightmare. And so the things that we pass on the things that the FDA I mean, in ATA, I was nine years old. And so, you know, I was not in the country, but I saw from the outside what was happening I've heard since then. Then from my family what happened? And if yes, you say the same songs are inspiring people, but you know, there are new songs that are coming out as well. And, and these songs are just, you know, that just you have that thing where people even in their final moments, I kind of humming these tunes in defiance. And I'm just in so much or
Brad 25:27
I mean, we're in a new world. I mean, on the one hand, it is a horrendous reality, that children today no the revolutionary songs of 1988. Those songs should have died with a successful revolution in 1988. Unfortunately, they're being recycled because the cause is ongoing. Hopefully, this will be the last iteration. But, you know, we live now in a digital world that didn't exist in 1988. We live in a world of memes. We live in a world of digital arts, we live in a world where so many different platforms can be utilized for these emotive powerful, expressive pieces, and there are some phenomenally talented and creative and imaginative artists who are using every play using
MiMi Aye 26:12
tic TOCs. There are Myanmar tic TOCs I mean that I think they're the you know, the Myanmar as a hashtag. There's like a billion I think on tick tock, and people creators who until now have been using it to like, show makeup to tutorials, or, you know, like muck Bang, which is that thing where people just watch people gorge themselves on food, they've pivoted, they're using, you know, I they're one of my favorite fashion bloggers. Oh, God, she she posted a tutorial, pictorial tutorial. So not trying to roam here, showing the best ways to run to avoid being shot, which is shocking, and terrifying. But also, oh, my god, people really are all these artists really are using their platforms. You know, where once she'd been posting beautiful, like sarongs and hairstyles and wishes art in itself, she was now showing diagrams on how to run in a zigzag fashion to avoid a sniper, which kind of made me want to cry.
Brad 27:18
I mean, it's, it is horrendous. Although running in zigzag to avoid a slight, but that's a there are some problems with that as well. Moving on from that, but you know, move it move on. That's it. Absolutely. That's the thing. Like it, like so many platforms that we're not taking seriously. Nobody thinks of Twitter, you know, as a serious thing, but when there's a revolution, when there's public action, you know, these can connect all the way to to the west, was the same.
MiMi Aye 27:51
The toaster thing? That's extraordinary. So I mean, as some people, I'm sure you're aware, Facebook was the internet for Myanmar. And then the military shut down Facebook thinking haha, we've got you there. And then, you know, everyone's suddenly flooded Instagram, and Twitter and Tiktok. And, you know, all these platforms that they'd never used before. And they were telegram channels, Telegram, again, being a new thing, training people how to use hashtags, training people how to get things to trend. And in fact, actually, right now there's a there's a bit of a scandal going on, because Instagram has suppressed the what's happening in Myanmar hashtag, which is probably the primary hashtag, used for disseminating updates. And getting information out there.
Brad 28:37
Because that's quite global. We use that on Facebook, we use Twitter, we use it everywhere.
MiMi Aye 28:41
Yeah, exactly. And that hashtag is currently been hidden by Instagram. And yeah, so there's been a lot of kickout people kicking off about that at the moment. But this is the thing, right? People, people have been adapting they've been moving from one medium to another, and adopting it in such kind of creative ways in such amazing ways. You know? Yeah, it's just, it's just, just it's so inspiring. To me.
Brad 29:08
It's not just the creativity. For me, it's the it's the speed yet, frankly, because back if we got, I mean, you know, internet access, and all those things we could say really probably started around 2010. But they didn't hit critical mass until quite a bit later than that. I think 2017 was the peak of telephone purchases. The telephone purchases in Myanmar, I think in 2017, surpassed even China. And so we saw memes, but the memes that were being created were basically Western memes, English language memes that were translated to Burmese. And that was probably still the reality in 2019. Now, we have genuinely new unique Burmese context memes that take effort to translate and explain to a western audience because there's so separated like, the speed at which the community, the Burmese community has found ways to utilize and exploit and change and customize these platforms to create a genuinely Burmese unique cultural expression is is phenomenal. I get his head spinning really fast. And it's still changing. It's still evolving every day, new things
MiMi Aye 30:24
are completely completely, you know, there's there's loads of memes, memes, memes accounts, that I follow on both Facebook and Instagram. And yeah, it's just like, the comedy is just incredible. And it really is something where it's hard to explain. Like, I think there was one famous example that I think was actually explored on this podcast, where they were talking about the the molinia, the husband and wife, crispy cakes, and how there were signs being put up by truck drivers saying we don't want to go back to the nonlinear roads. And how you had to explain that that means kind of roads full of potholes because you have a pan that looks like potholes to make this snack. But you know, you're having to take five steps to explain what it actually means. But it you know, to, to a Burmese person, you look at that. And you go Yeah, you're right. We don't want those.
Brad 31:13
Remember that that was actually me being interviewed on that particular episode. Oh, yeah, how we come full circle. But no, I mean, the reason that we did that, that particular one was the genesis for that sort of entire Facebook page, because it was so poignant in Burmese, and so obvious to everyone who understands the book, not just the language, but the culture and the history in which they just looked at and they laughed. And the explanation that was required to get that through to an outsider, was like five minutes of solid history lesson. It was ridiculous. Like, it legitimately took like, someone explaining it to me in multiple voice messages, sending me pictures explaining each step as we go. And then I explained that to my friend, I'm like, Oh, my God, have you seen this? This is so ridiculous. I explained it to him, it took me five minutes to explain it, he just messaged me back going. Okay, that is absolutely insane. Like that is ridiculous. I can understand why this is fascinating to you, and why you want to start sort of diving deep. And it really blew my mind, it really blew my mind that to have that form of expression.
MiMi Aye 32:25
I mean, there was another one that was going around. And this is something that I actually had to I learned relatively recently, because obviously, I'm not in the country. And so I don't necessarily know, up to date slang. And I didn't realize that gento which means to kind of put ginger, I guess literally, it's kind of a weird thing to say, means to be useless. And that's a relatively modern part of slang. And then there was this thing going around where someone had recreated the UN logo using ginger. And obviously, if you're if you're, you know, a hip Burmese person, which, which I am not, as soon as you see that you go, yeah, that's a really good joke. But you know, the UN symbol be recreated in Jinja. But like, loads of other people were like, what does this mean? What is this?
Brad 33:14
Yes, that that threw me for a loop as well. It comes from some movie. Apparently, apparently, I think it came from some comedy movie that came out a few years ago. And one of those is called Jinja. But he's this absolute good for nothing. And there it because like i My understanding is that's the origin. I might be wrong. But yeah. But it's so beautiful and so poignant and so effective. Those things that you if you're in the culture, and it's not just language, it's culture, you're in the culture, you look at it, boom, got it. And if you're an outsider, it's like, Alright, sit down. We're going to have to go through a couple of steps here. And we're going to walk you through this. It's it really is incredible. It's amazing. But it's the spirit of it to me, as well
MiMi Aye 34:02
as the gallows humor. It's the thing where, you know, when there were kind of bombs being set off in Yangon, I think it was and there was a video of it and then there was like one whole kind of battery of explosions going off and then suddenly you had all these voices going happy in you. Yeah. Which is a joke that works in English.
Brad 34:26
But it was like the comments because I remember posting that video it was really doing the rounds on social media. And it was the comments that came back were just aghast that they were just like, the balls on these people. That just like alright, you know, bombs are coming and bombs are coming in. What are you going to do? Like like this is normal. And people I think people that one really stopped a couple of people like the jokes were funny. And then you see a video of people just dealing with the reality of grenades and rockets. And you just go like, Oh my God, this this isn't fun. Like, this is a very real situation, these people are just coping as best as they can. Well,
MiMi Aye 35:05
that's the thing. If it's the, you know, if you don't laugh, you're gonna cry. So, you know,
Brad 35:12
I mean, it's it is truly horrendous. But, of course, that that sort of sets us up here. Obviously, we have to talk about it, because that is sort of what is going on at the moment. So we've got an auction coming up in New York. And we have, again, this this beautiful representation of a very real and tangible way in which Myanmar artists can use the power of art itself, simultaneously to raise awareness and to perform advocacy, but also to raise funds that are desperately needed for for people who have been displaced people whose crops have been destroyed. And people have had to just flee the country. Because the military literally they know know about. Everyday, we're seeing more and more evidence of that. Do you have any? Do you have any comments on on the art auction itself for the artists themselves?
MiMi Aye 36:10
I think I'm just kind of in awe that people are able to translate what is basically horror into something that's kind of beautiful, I don't mean beautiful in the bad and like kind of like a positive, happy way. But in a way that it kind of put it this way, one of the things that I always admire about art is the fact that it's a way of getting a message to people without I guess without turning them off. And I'm not an artist, but this is something that I've tried to do even when I've shared information or posted imagery on my own accounts. And that's the fact that so, you know, at the moment, obviously, there's no, there's been one nightmare of another one piece of horror after another because the military, they know no mercy. And the latest thing that they've done is that they've you know, set fire to people's bodies. And so there have been images of individual videos of people's charred bodies going around social media, and I
Brad 37:07
integration, those people were not dead when they were set on fire, the most recent ones were alive when they were burned.
MiMi Aye 37:13
Yeah, I believe that's the case, I'm not entirely sure. And so so you know, it's just the most unimaginable horror. And this has obviously been passed around around. But the thing is, for a lot of people that will make them turn off, it will make them switch off, it will make them go, I don't want to think about this anymore. This, I don't want to deal with this. And the thing about art is that you can convey what's happening without presenting people with, you know, the real thing, if that makes sense. And so it is an such an important medium to get a message across without making people turn the page without making people switch off their TV sets without making people don't put their phones down. You can still have the impact. It's not sanitized, but it has the same impact. But without that, there's that I hesitate to use the word beauty again. But there's, there's the translating it into a medium that's kind of a step removed. So it's not sanitized at all, it can be just as devastating to witness just as devastating to view. But it's that difference between people looking and absorbing and understanding and people just turning away.
Brad 38:30
Yes. And I think it's also the way that the medium works. You can see in like it when it's an image when it's a post or when it's a painting, you can not only translate an emotion, and that's, that's very powerful. There are certain paintings, you know, because those weeping woman comes to mind. You know, you don't need to analyze the painting, you can see the grief of a mother whose son has just died. Right, you can see biting down on her on her co-chief and crying. That's an emotion that is immediately translatable and understandable. Regardless of culture, regardless of of background, and it all it takes is a glimpse, all it takes is a look at the piece. And you are you are connected. So I understand that you don't want to use the word beauty. But I think we can say that these pieces are captivating. There's something about them that connects with us because we feel it and we feel it faster than that then that part of our brain that says I don't want to engage with this. I don't want this to be my problem. Too late. This is happening. Exactly.
Host 39:38
You know
Brad 39:39
you can't ignore it. Yes, and that's a good thing. It needs it is a good thing. Yeah. Because 54 million Burmese people can't just walk away from it. You know that's that's the reality.
MiMi Aye 39:52
That's the other thing I say so you know when it is just a news report when it is just like a photo Part of you can become numb to it all. And the whole point about art is that is the opposite. It fires you up, you know, you can't be numb to art in.
Brad 40:11
There's no apathy there. There's no exhaustion there. It's, it's novel, but it is still just as powerful. The first time is the fifth time as the 100th. Time it's yeah, it truly does sort of, I think this is what I'm coming back to all the time is that our tries to distill the human experience, and get rid of all the clutter, and just translate human experience to a human being and draw you in. And he does that so much more effectively than someone dryly reading out statistics and facts and, or just showing you shocking photographs after shocking photographs like those, those are somehow never as effective as a poem, even, or a song or a rendering. There are just really opposite ways of translating large scale horror down to something that even a single human being can understand him and can empathize with. So that all that being said, we're in a little bit of a of a down notes at the moment. But But this has been a very, very enjoyable conversation, a very edifying conversation. I think it's, it's gone in some really interesting ways. Would you like to leave us with any final thoughts on any of the things that we've discussed today?
MiMi Aye 41:32
I guess there were two things that really strike me. The first is that, you know, we were talking about songs being handed down, and stories. And I think it's really important that people remember, but I'm hoping in the not too distant future, these will just become folktales. And we will remember, and we will sing, but it won't be because we're mourning what's happening right now. And in that respect, I think, I hope that these artworks, the songs, these poems will become beautiful, and in the kind of the pure way of beauty as in something that we can appreciate without it being tinged with sadness and horror. And then the other thing, I guess, is I mentioned that my great aunt was Ludo Amar. I think something that she said once in an interview is something that I continue to try and bear in mind and I think everyone else should as well, which is, she said that for those of us who don't dance to the tune of the authorities, we must be creative in what we write to get the message across. And I think that holds true for whatever medium whether you write whether you paint, whether you sing, just keep keep being creative, and keeping keep everyone on their toes because it is that which keeps everyone else going but it keeps you as the artist going. So yeah, just keep going everybody.
Brad 43:09
We have with us a very special guest today Dr. Salsa himself the Minister of international cooperation within the national unity government. He shares with us his thoughts on art and outlines the importance of today's event and the importance of raising awareness among the international community to help the long suffering Mr. People. Dr Sasa many people in the West have a very particular idea of what art is. But Myanmar art is quite different and different ethnic groups in different cultures have different types of art and artistic expression. Can you tell us a little bit about the importance of art to identity and to culture for Myanmar people?
Dr. Sasa 43:57
Well, let me state first that Myanmar is a multi ethnic country, Maathai religious country, multi society, country. So there's multiple languages and ethnicities and cultures, and arts. And so even the food and even the way how we dress even the way our clothes and coffee all these are unique way it's not all about art of the beauty. Its itself is about the beauty of the culture in which we have been. You know, living and also, Myanmar is the country of like I used to compare Gardens is a big massive gardens. That means that it's the only one type of flower. There's so many varieties of flowers flowering, in a beautiful card and so, Myanmar as a country itself is arts country, it is the diversity is diverse, very diverse country in this way. Even languages, the so many languages example, the chain for where I came from, we have at least more than 50 spoken languages at the same times 50 More than colorful dresses and arts that each displays the identity of the tribes. But again, it is the military generous in Myanmar for so long. They have a policy, it's his terror policy, that is Burmanization, that is called Buddhistization. So, they want to see one race, one culture and it is again they have been using that as weapon. So whenever you see the military generals in Myanmar talk about the politics they will always say protection of race and religious their means Burmanization and Buddhistization so that is the to policy that many people in Myanmar aware of no already but maybe I don't think so that I would say well, no about it that much. And they want to destroy the rest of the culture, by discriminating against me, they want to destroy all other languages by discriminating even necessary using force to bow down in front of their policy. But we have been standing up for unity in diversity. So the correct in another word, this culture, this arts are the strength to the nation of Myanmar. And these arts, this identity, this beautiful ethnicities, this beautiful languages, culture, a variety and diversities are really the greatest strength of Myanmar as a country instead of try to appreciate instead of appreciating the beauty of each culture, the beauty of each languages and that you notice the beauty lie on that identities. But this is this the military generals that have agenda and the policy of destroying all those beauty but we are determined to build the beauty against from the ashes of the destruction of the Tatmadaw for five decades.
Brad 48:31
Excellent. And I think it's it's very important the way that you say that the military engages in Burma. It engages in Buddhist cessation, trying to eliminate these other types of identity. But what we've seen is is art being used to fight back against the military to fight back against memorization to fight back against politicization to fight back against dictatorship. Can you tell us whether you see art as being an important tool in this conflict against the February coup?
Dr. Sasa 49:06
Just example, this split revolution. What is the symbol? The word displays around across the nations? Three finger salute? Yeah, it's displacement of arts using arts against tyranny using three finger salute as a symbolic, as Amtico as anti military junta. And it's a very effective way of using of the three finger salute as ads against turning. So I never see any country in the world using this arts of creativity. And that to me, I think Art is all about identity itself, but also it's about creativity. So the way they all this protest, peaceful protesting, it's all so much about, you know, showing life acts in many way. Example, the young people, Generation Z, they, they were to stop the military vehicle coming to the protesters. And they were doing and started police forces, but they will have the way of doing it. Because the police has to, they have got too much weapons, they will destroy, they'll kill them. Instead, they use like potato, or they use like onions on the road. They I saw them in the video file, they draw the potato on the streets, and they kind of they broke it back, put the back against the back basket. And it's all to me it just stunning. Amazing in a way of displaying ads against turn ads in types, you know, there's a campaign of rose flower, there was the day when the Alsace, which is birthday, there was the whole nation break, Rose, and there was a rose protest against tyranny. So it's it's all so much about, you know, people display ads against tyranny. And at the same time, if you listened, the music of our great artists in Myanmar, so much is about the sounds and a poem that is written against the brutality of the military junta, and the hope of federal democracy, the hope for freedom. So these displacements and a lot of arts drawing, or arts displacing so much about, you know, in a way very effective use of art against tyranny. So I think that the topic that we discussed today is a very much fit to the people of Myanmar, using the creativity, identity arts crave the creativity of arts, to against the military rules in Myanmar.
Brad 52:43
I agree, and I think the examples that you've brought up a very useful and very important examples, not only because they're creative, but also because these are, these are nonviolent ways to fight back against violence. These are people fighting a military, through peaceful means. And as you say, we've seen very, very, very great creativity in this through music and through flowers and through paintings. Do you think that there's a message here, for protesters, and for the people who are fighting for democracy, about the power of peace and the power of love over violence and hatred?
Dr. Sasa 53:30
It is clear. I mean, peace is always much, much more powerful than violence, always, always. And again, not violence is always much, much more powerful than violence. So, I mean, if you just simple x experimental displacement of distribution now is just look at the other side of Myanmar, where the military generals in Burma are using all out violence against the people of Myanmar. And this side, the artists, the beautiful people of Myanmar, were the most peaceful people in Myanmar, displacing non violence against the violence. So I think this non violence movement of acts against tyranny is much more powerful that the military acts of terrorism against the people of Myanmar as the light is much more powerful that the darknesses as the love is much, much more powerful than hatreds. As non violence is much more powerful than Violence, as a piece is much more powerful than, again, this crime against humanity. So it's all there for the world to see. And it's all for the people of Myanmar to see, of course, again, every target political term freedom will always be much more powerful than tyranny. So, in a sense, military dictatorship have no place, actually, they have no place they are, you know, they're struggling to cripple the power. And it has been 10 months, since they took the country power by force, not by election, nor by choice, but by using better fuel weapons. They took away the power from the people of Myanmar. Yeah. So this is how we have visited determines, can the military junta succeed? Or the succeeding? No, no way, you know, is that they are failing everyday. They are dying everyday, actually, no, they are becoming weak and weaker and weaker. So this itself shows that democracy is much, much more powerful, then dictatorship. The freedom is power, much, much more powerful than turning. So this is for all us, for all of us to see in real life, in real times.
Brad 56:48
I agree, and I think it's a very powerful and a very important message to have. But besides just the conflict here between good and evil and peace versus violence, do you think it's useful for us and and useful for the Western world, for there to be this sharing of art for people outside of Myanmar to see and be able to experience and understand Myanmar artists and Myanmar artistic expressions?
Dr. Sasa 57:17
I think at the end of the day, it's all about the hope. And the artists, drawing pictures, or expressing in music. In whichever way they do not die, it will be there, always. So I think it gives us a hope to the future. That no matter what, the end of the day, peace will prevail. No matter what the end of the day, justice will prevail. And the end of the day, no matter what the beauty of arts war prevails, and the end of the day, the people, peace loving people will prevail. So I think, in a sense, the moment like this when the country is going through the darkest moment in history, overnight, the crisis. Yeah, Violence Crisis, humanitarian catastrophe is very dim, and dark. When I say darkness, that means we can't see that anymore. But the beauty of arts and the beauty of future is the promise that we will build the beauty again, from the address of distractions, we will build the opportunity again, from the ads of crisis, we will build peace, again, from the edge of violence valances that's, that's that's the that's the future. And that's the whole that's it. In many ways. The artists are displacing everyday life, if you listen to the sounds that we all are hearing in a protest. It is the shouting of the hope is the end to the military dictatorship. This the slogan and acts and demand for the Federal democratic future. So that means that that's the desire that will become really the That's the dream that will come reality. So what what I'm saying is, the people of Myanmar's dreams will come true. So art itself displays all those at the same time, it displays what is happening now. But the beauty of it is, it also tell us the hope of the future. And it gives us the hope.
Brad 1:00:32
Excellent. As a minister, just one final question, and it is a very important question. Of course, this weekend, we have an art auction, we're trying to raise money for the people who have been affected by the military, the people who are displaced, the people who have joined the CDM. How important is this? How important is it that we can raise money to help these people?
Dr. Sasa 1:00:54
Number one, it's very important that we are setting the strong message to the people of Myanmar by doing these auctions of art, that they are not forgotten. So it's very important and true Arts at the work of arts and auctions, we are showing our solidarity with the people of Myanmar. So that itself give hope to the nation. So I always believe in the value of clouds of water, I think there is a really a great value of glass of water, when you think about ocean, you will say oh what is the value of glass of water, but in the task the moment like this, I think cup of water save life. So, I know that in the hearts of the artists and the hearts of the people who evolve this program and art auctions, I just like you all to feel the same, that your actions your work is much more words than classical water, if glass of water save life, this arts and this work at this auctions and this actions save many life practically at the same times. It gave hope to the future. So, today, we are leaving for tomorrow. We are working these not only just for today. We are working these for tomorrow as well. And tomorrow, my children, my grandchildren will tell me what have you done? When the people of Myanmar are facing crime against humanity? Have you done anything when mere ma are a total darknesses. So to me, important thing is Yes, I have done something when there was a happening. I was not ignorance. I was not neglecting those crimes, as a human being is a crime against humanity taking place as human being no matter which country I belong to. As human beings, I have done this as much as I can in my own ability, and capacity and power. So I think all of you will be so proud of what you're doing. And I hope and pray so that you will be proud of what you have done today. In this time of needs. Finally, it's all about friends, it needs our friends, indeed, the same art, it needs our art indeed. So it's a very simple to me. So I salute all of the artists who participate in it is a program using your arts of work in times of the most needed in my country and people's history. It will not be forgotten. What you have done today will not be forgotten that it is appreciated. And I just like to say again, thank you to all of you from the bottom of my heart not only on my own behalf, but on behalf of the people of Myanmar as minister and spokesperson for the nations. Once again, thank you all.
Brad 1:05:17
Our final guest today is any great a Burmese American drag artist who is contributing a live performance at today's event, which we encourage everybody to watch and who will open up to us about Myanmar society, the duality and fluidity present in all forms of identity and her role in helping others find the courage to be themselves and find an emotional home.
Emi Grate 1:05:42
So I was born and raised in Mandalay forma, I was there for 18 years, and they like came to the US for college. I went to two different liberal arts schools for five years, and then I graduated. And since 2016, I've been here in Brooklyn, New York. Plus my tribe mentally perma. Both my parents are doctors, they have a small private practice. I have a younger sister.
Brad 1:06:17
Okay. So, I wanted to, to do ask on that. So you you identify as, as transsexual and as a pansexual? Drag Queen, correct?
Emi Grate 1:06:34
Yes, um, I can elaborate more. So, in Burmese culture, the terms gender and sexuality are kind of interchangeable, but in the western understanding, it's not in, I can elaborate on my own personal experience with gender and sexuality from a Western perspective better. Um, yes, I am transgender in the fact that I conform to neither strictly male, or strictly female, in terms of identity. And in terms of sexuality, it's more about people I'm attracted to, in their gender. So in terms of that, anything goes? I'm usually as, especially in the context of Western culture, when people ask me what my gender is what my sexuality is, I usually say my gender is yes. And which is from Improv Theater. Are you a man? Yes. And also a woman? And also, both and neither? In terms of sexuality, in terms of people, I would have sexual romantic interactions with, I usually say any hole is a goal.
Brad 1:08:03
So I would say I've never heard anyone describe it as Yes. And but that that is, that is both a very nice time cheek reference, but also a very effective, I think, shorthand, so I like that. I really like that. But so we can have this conversation. But the question is, is it as easy to have this sort of a conversation in the Myanmar context?
Emi Grate 1:08:32
Um, in the context of Burmese culture and Burmese communities when it comes to my gender and sexuality, I usually show and not tell. And I'm going back to the idea of thing, yes. And which is part of like the improv theatre tradition. And the Improv Theater is kind of also very frequently made fun off among theater people. So, it first some people will say, if you, um, I would say something along the lines of like, my gender is yes. And just like improv, if you get too into it, you lose.
Brad 1:09:20
Nice. But you you mentioned that both of your parents are doctors. And I know that you've, you've said elsewhere that your relationship with your mother is a very important part of your, your identity and your drug identity, and your performance and your art. So I presume from that, that your relationship at least with your mother has not been estranged. Because your identity? No, okay. That's cool. I was just gonna I was just gonna ask, how is it different from your parents perspective because they come from a medical side perspective, does that make them more understanding of your identity than a lot of other people in their context? Or does it give it just a different dimension entirely?
Emi Grate 1:10:11
I would say no, because when I first came out the way I'm the way they reacted was one of prejudice. And even though it the medical community is a scientific community, science may be facts, but people who interpret them are not. So there are biases. Um, there was some fear about HIV and AIDS. about social class about transgender, queer, let's just use the queer umbrella about how queer people in Burma or a different class that decent people are not supposed to interact with, um, why would want to associate with that I got those kinds of reactions from my parents, but I pretty much followed, like, the show don't tell method in terms of my gender and sexuality. And honestly, they came around, not because they are doctors, but because it comes from a place of love. I'm already like, halfway around the world. And my parents already knew that accepted that I am operating in a different cultural context than they are capable of understanding. So they step back, just watch me from afar and took their time and come to understand who I am, to what I do and how I get through day to day life. Mostly, like phone calls once every few weeks, and then watching my social media feed.
Brad 1:12:01
Okay. It's very interesting. So they, they sort of, in a sense, they take an active interest, they're not trying to shut it out or pretend that it doesn't exist, they, they it sounds like they're quite accepting.
Emi Grate 1:12:14
Yes, they take an active interest, but they have to learn to be passive in their interaction. Like, in I'm pretty sure you will be aware in permis community parents tend to be very hands on with their kids. My parents are extremely that and because they are doctors and well respected in society. They also have a vision of like, we are doctors and therefore our children should be x y&z They had to learn to like, let go of that.
Brad 1:12:46
Yes, my mother is a doctor, I sympathize. So, but it's it sounds like your your story with your family is a reasonably successful one. And the unfortunate reality as we both know is that for a lot of queer people in the Myanmar context, those stories do not turn out anywhere near as, as positively. How would you generally sort of summarize the status of queer people in Myanmar culture? Today?
Emi Grate 1:13:21
Um, I don't think I can really speak on that because before I came out, when I was growing up, I never had to write interactions or connections with the queer community. But I only came to like know, of queer people existing in Burma. After working out and after I decided to leave the country long term. Of course, another thought related to that. Oh, not being connected to queer community in Burma, but there were like few queer people that I was connected with, and they were from within, within the family. I used to have an auntie Walsh, she's still alive. I have an aunt who we would call uncle and she had this lady who was her best friend who would come to her place. She lived with her parents would come to see my aunt every morning and would sleep over three nights a week and none of the other hands likes the lady friend, but it's the aunts favorite person in the world. And we don't understand why that's like my interaction with a lesbian or transgender aren't.
Brad 1:14:52
So yeah, so clearly that sort of euphemistic approach to sort of hide these these different called, quote unquote difficult topics from children. But that's a very interesting one because my my personal experiences in in living in Yangon. And I'm, I'm not queer, so I don't have the deepest insights. But my experiences were very much that the concept of a biological male identifying as a female was much more. I think people could wrap their heads around that much more than a biological female identifying as a male, that didn't seem to be part of the discourse, or at least I never noticed it to be. So I find it very interesting. The the example that you give of your relatives, that's usually
Emi Grate 1:15:44
that's usually been bootiful. Um, Burmese people really glorify male masculinity. So aspiring to be that is no big deal. But if you're already in quote unquote, man, why would you want to lower yourself to the position of a woman but that is the problem.
Brad 1:16:09
Okay, so it's just socially codified. misogyny. That is that gives you gives you a path to try and rise above your womanhood to become something greater. But not the arc, I
Emi Grate 1:16:22
want to revisit the opening question about my childhood I, I was about to go into the gender roles in the family. That's why I said, I'll just dive right into gender. So my mother is disabled. She, her right leg is atrophy from polio, which she contracted when she was 18 months old. And she also has post polio scoliosis. She used to be able to walk, but now she's wheelchair bound. Um, but she is very good with people. And she became the face of the practice that my parents run, and my dad wants, like the back in the bookkeeping, inventory, that kind of stuff. Well, my mom became the face of the business and people knew the business as my mom's clinic. Um, so in a sense, my mom, even though she's female, and disabled, became the breadwinner figurehead of the family. Um, and I was the first one No, is raised, socialized as male. Um, so I did grew up with, um, misogyny around me. But gender roles didn't matter that much to me, because I wasn't seeing them enforced that strongly in my family. So when I started experimenting with gender norms, like painting my nails, putting on lipstick, wearing heels, it was kind of like, I'll just explore this, I never felt guilty. I was just frustrated when people told me, No, this is wrong. But I don't feel guilty about any of that internally. And my dad, throughout the years, has had some of the first reactions to his status as the male head of the family being undermined. Um, my dad has never like beat my mom. But when they would get arguments, and when he would get mad at her, he would just leave the house for 48 to 72 hours, two or three days. And my mom will be just at home unable to get to work. Which is the weird way of exerting power. I have never talked about this publicly. But here we go. Sorry, Dad. I'm also not trying to get him canceled, but like, it is what it is kind of like the arrangement, unspoken arrangement that my parents have in their marriage and how they run their business. So there was like, both a soft version of misogyny, and also misogyny in action, both ways. So that's kind of what I grew up seeing. And in terms of sexuality, I used to have crushes on girls in middle school in high school. And I was like this fine. Like, and also I was attracted to boys too. And some of my friends were very okay with that. Because it's genuine, like, genuine, adolescent sexual interest. Um, until some books some people started putting labels on it, and all of a sudden, a child may miss job and then it would not okay him, which is very strange.
Brad 1:20:03
Yeah. So I would just like to say like on on the topic of, of your parents interaction. That's, it's something that I've seen manifested in many different forms. And I find it very interesting that you, you talk about this as gender roles. But I feel that society wide in your mouth, there is a massive disparity between gender roles as they are codified in speech, and gender roles as they play out. There are so many businesses that I've seen so many families that I've seen, where the, the woman does the accounting, she does the numbers, you know, she does the more complex tasks of the business. And so many women that I've seen on the street side, selling goods all day, while their husbands, you know, drink or gamble or things like this, it's a, I find it very interesting that there's this culture of saying the men are dominant. But functionally, in so many cases, it is actually the women who carry the family unit forward, and do all of the really heavy lifting. And men seem to them be upset that they're not doing sorry.
Emi Grate 1:21:16
I think the disparity we're seeing comes from the fact that we know gender roles as a western concept. Um, I think Burmese society has more preoccupation with what is masculine and feminine 's qualities, rather than roles to fulfill. I'm not sure if that makes sense.
Brad 1:21:39
It's sort of that so so let me follow here. So if if we were to have a woman who is working and bringing money home, would you say that that makes the man feel that she's out masculine and Kim? And causes inadequacy? So, you mentioned that when when you had attraction to boys, that was not a problem until people started putting a label on it. I assume you mean like until people started looking at that and saying, Hey, that's gay. And this is straight. And until then nobody really cared? Is that correct?
Emi Grate 1:22:17
It was really okay to like, have curiosities and to explore them. But you're not supposed to get to the point of like, exchanging notes and going out together is dating. Um, it's supposed to be a phase.
Brad 1:22:32
So it's, it's interesting the way that society relates to the gay community. Now, I know that you said that you left the country in 2012. And that you have not returned since then.
Emi Grate 1:22:47
So I was, yeah, I, I first came to the US in 2011. I went back for summer of 2012, after I came out. That was when I was less than.
Brad 1:22:59
Yes. So you've been out of the country for about nine years? Yes. Yes. And you left during the the rule of thumb insane. So quite quite a lot of political developments have occurred since then i i assume that you are still sort of keeping your finger on the pulse of the Myanmar queer community? Would you say that you've noticed a change in societal attitudes or the bravery with which people can be over.
Emi Grate 1:23:32
Um, I don't know about societal and too, but the community, the queer community, the LGBT community itself, has come out from the shadows. Because the turn of 2010 I think kind of marks the opening up of gay culture, I would say the US was going through like a major transition. Also regarding gay rights, especially gay marriage, leading up to 2015 I believe. I think 2015 June 26. There was when it became like, nationwide marriage equality. And also, just not just the US all other countries was also making progress with LGBT rights. And Burma was opening up and consuming more international media. So the queer community probably found more of a voice more people in the media to identify with, um, even if it's very few so I, I don't know who exactly is out and how openly they are out there. But people do seem to be finding more comfort with themselves. and expressing it within specific circles.
Brad 1:25:06
Anyway, so let me let me before that. So you, you, you do a type of art that I think a lot of people are not familiar with drag performance is RuPaul drag race obviously has brought a lot of attention to, to the art form itself. But, but apart from that before that became popular, I don't think a lot of people understood drag as as a concept. What is drag to you personally?
Emi Grate 1:25:37
Um, I always say, oh, excuse me, lordy. Turn off my phone. I thought I could come I would I define drag as an art form that uses gender as a medium. But the elaboration on that is in a world where everything and everyone is gendered aggressively, anything can be dragged in any one can do drag. Mmm. Interesting. Something to add on to that is a quote from Stephen Sondheim, which I recently came across because of his recent passing. I just saw this in passing. So I don't know the exact quote, but it was something along lines of art is trying to create some form of order out of chaos. So I would say like, dealing with gender on a day to day basis, even though we are accustomed to it, because of societal expectations, and rigid rules is exhausting, it's hostile. And doing drag is trying to bring some order and duty out of that chaos and madness.
Brad 1:27:08
I like that that's very eloquent. So, so I like that. So you're saying that drag is for everyone. It's not for people who might be transvestites or who might be transgender or who might be queer in some way, you're saying it's just it is an art form for anyone.
Emi Grate 1:27:27
Anyone can But historically, I would say it belongs to the queer community because by playing with or breaking rules of gender, in specific designated spaces, they've been able to express themselves. So, historically, if we lost the queer people, and historically these are the people who have championed this artform, but it is for everyone and anyone can do it, it can be about anything. And people would associate red with hair and makeup fashion performance mainly because those are the kinds of things we associate the strongest with gender but really can be about anything and it can incorporate any element.
Brad 1:28:25
Interesting. So what does for you personally, what does drag performance as an art form do for you?
Emi Grate 1:28:34
I growing up I was always fascinated with feminine things. From like, the idea of motherhood given the way my mother raised me and my sister to the way in which women dress it because there will be like an intersection of gender and class. Um I will say I get to experiment with and experience different fantasies regarding gender, I would say.
Brad 1:29:13
So it's more personal exploration.
Emi Grate 1:29:15
Yes, um, I will say my diva, which a lot of gay people have, like, diva that I look up to in terms of like femininity performance, from permissive culture, I would say knowing when. So when I perform, it's sometimes things like, what is it like to be knowing when and also sometimes when I think about relationships, my relationship with other people or people I am mentoring? I think about what is it like to be my mother who had to raise me um, what was gonna say?
Brad 1:30:00
I just think it's very interesting. So you're trying to almost it sounds like you're trying to channel these people into a manifestation that you present to an audience. Yes. That's fascinating. And so that that sort of leads on to my other question, because we talk a lot about empathy. And we talk a lot about this idea of, you don't know what it's like to be in somebody else's shoes. But you should try. It's an important thing to do. And it sounds like from from your telling, a lot of drag is basically that it is the attempt to try and put yourself in somebody else's situation and imagine being that person, the good and the bad. So
Emi Grate 1:30:44
for me, for me personally, yes. Other people may approach it differently, because their experience of gender in the world would be vastly different from mine.
Brad 1:30:54
Of course, but what what would you say is the role of drag of the benefit of drag and related types of art? And I think we I think we can call it subversive in a sense, I think, I think drag challenges norms. What is the benefit of these forms of subversive art to society as a whole.
Emi Grate 1:31:18
I would say drag is deeply personal. And in performance in theater, I would say is something that takes day to day or real world real life experiences into a very compact package, and presented to an audience. When it is not a group of people like a theater, but when you're just one person who is telling their quote unquote, gender story, because gender is a quarter of a lot of elements of day to day life. It's a new and different way of looking at existence and experiences, I would say.
Brad 1:32:08
Interesting, interesting. Because I think I think we can definitely say that the increased visibility of, of these sorts of art forms and not to come back to RuPaul drag race, but it is, it is a very culturally impactful phenomenon. It is the one right, and I think, looking at that, you know, it, it helps to normalize something, it helps to make it not scary, it helps to humanize it and say, well, these are people. These are just normal people, they have lives and they have jobs and responsibilities, you know, they decent.
Emi Grate 1:32:42
Oh, because you brought up the word normalize. I would like to introduce this conversation that has been happening in activist circles recently, the difference between normalization and D stigmatization. So normalization basically means making something more and more widespread, making it everywhere, which is what repulse drag race is, but um, P stigmatization is unlearning toxic behavior and attitudes like homophobia and transphobia. How much effort have we put into the D stigmatization of queer and transgender identities? On gay people, everyone now trans people everywhere now, but they are still getting murdered? Yes, so we still have a long way to go in terms of d. stigmatization, which should take precedence over normalization. Normalization is kind of easy to exploit for profits in a capitalist society. But, um, D stigmatization for utopia.
Brad 1:33:55
Yeah, I watched while you were saying that the, the example that came to my mind genuinely was that there was a comment that he made when they were launching the new query for the straight guy. And he said that the original Queer Eye for the Straight Guy was more about just sort of overcoming that initial hurdle. You know, say like, hearing gay people, they exist, they're not going to eat you. And the new query for the straight guy was more a quest for sort of acceptance. And it struck me that when you look at the first season of growth for the straight guy, yeah, there was a lot of stereotyping that went on. Around that show. Carson became a very sort of strong stereotype of this of this effeminate gay man. Whereas you look at the new version of growth for the straight guy. It's, it's, it doesn't lean into that thing of, well, this is what an average audience thinks gay people are, so we should just serve that to them. It it really just does not like What a gay person is, is just the same as what a straight person is, except there's an element of their life, that doesn't affect you anyway. So you don't really need to notice that there's no sort of, you know, glitter and parades and things like that. They're just, you know, people just like everybody else. So it just, it just made me think of that change in presentation to the broader audience.
Emi Grate 1:35:23
Yeah. So in terms of in terms of coming, it comes for acceptance, the narrative can go many different ways. The very basic level is, gay people are the same as free people. There's no difference. There's nothing special, which is not true. And they're different. And but they're okay. They're different. And it's a good thing. They're different. And that's the thing to celebrate. There are different levels. And the last thing I mentioned, should be the goal. But it was like, a lot of steps to get there.
Brad 1:36:08
Yeah. But fortunately, you know, with the increase of this sort of visibility, the increase of these sorts of performative arts, it seems that we are making strong strides in that direction. Definitely, in the West, it appears that it's become a very politically popular movement. It's easy to jump on for politicians. Now they don't risk losing points, because that was what was important to them all along, apparently. But it seems that it seems that in the Asian context, it's still a very difficult fight to fight. It's still very hard to win acceptance. And in Myanmar, for example, my understanding is homosexuality is still technically criminal.
Emi Grate 1:36:52
So it's section 377. It it can't be the law itself rules gender and sexuality into one. It, I believe it is sodomy and not traditional gender expressions. I think those are the two criterias. The punishment, I believe, is two years to live in jail. And session 376 is rape.
Brad 1:37:22
I mean, that's that's the case, everyone, when you look at Uganda, which which drew attention for the kill the gays bill, but their criminalization of homosexuality is also a British colonial relic. I think a lot of countries didn't actually have issues with homosexuality until Western colonizing power was enforced it.
Emi Grate 1:37:42
Everybody has their own understanding and integration of queer people in their society. It goes as far as the Buddhist scriptures and the Hindu scriptures before, but somehow, we neglect those two now, or people don't bring those up.
Brad 1:38:09
Yeah. So I mean, that's very interesting, because we know, for example, that there was a shift when the military took over control, you know, starting from their wins coup in 1962. But more importantly, the the Minister of Education was then we can't remember. He was also prime minister in the 80s. For a while, the education reforms really emphasized only those elements of Buddhist scripture, which talks about piety and loyalty, and obedience and humility, and they de emphasized anything that could trigger independent thought or questioning the righteousness of authority and military power. So it's not surprising to me that they would have consciously removed the more tolerant and accepting passages from this course.
Emi Grate 1:39:03
I am going to go on wild tangent because you brought up the culture of dominant patriarchy in the Burmese culture. I have been listening to a Burmese version of creepy pasta on YouTube, which is just like supernatural stories from Burmese, from Burma, that are narrated by narrative narrated by YouTubers. I listen to them while I do makeup. And one thing I find time and time again in those stories is if there is a particular demon or a witch, or a ghost that is on the loose, you never take care of it yourself. You go to an authority figure who's in charge of that. You always use your authority figure in There is always a higher power, and you are always supposed to report to them. And they're gonna be wondering, this is how dictatorship thrives. How did this start? Did they design it into like the psyche of the Burmese people since the 60s? Or has it been a thing since before the British? And how long is this going to go on?
Brad 1:40:30
I mean, that's a very, I had no idea about that. But it strikes me as something that definitely would have been conscious. I listened to a PhD thesis from a researcher who had gone to Thailand and spoken to teachers who had fled over the border. And what she had found was that a lot of these teachers were being forced by the military to teach, you know, the scriptures that I said the loyalty and obedience and humility. But because the Buddha scripture is a very complex language, she said that they were actually teaching it in a way that they were trying to use the scriptures that they were forced to teach, but asking questions about them. Because the language was so complex, the children couldn't understand it. They were using it to guide children towards these conclusions of questioning authority, or is this moral? Or is this how we should interpret the text and things like this, but it was very clear that this idea of there is someone above you, your job is to shut up and wait for them to tell you what to do. That was very deliberately being hammered in from a very early age in the school system. So it's, it's a little bit horrifying, that it's extended so far as to affect newly created art forms. As a foregone conclusion that Oh, no, there's someone else will will go that that's, that's horrifying, actually. To me,
Emi Grate 1:41:55
I don't know if or how this shows up in other genres of writing. But in like Burmese horror genre, in the supernatural genre, it is a backbone. Wow. Like the stories only vary in like, how they get there. And that's the interesting part of the story structure is like something happens, we find out what's wrong, we find the authority, you get that the authority takes care of it.
Brad 1:42:21
Wow. And you compare that to the west where, you know, our children's tales have, you know, crazed wood cutters coming into grandmother's house to cut the wolf open and free grandma, or just, you know, children that taking upon themselves to to throw a witch into the oven and save their lives. You know, that's normal. And then we look at TV shows like supernatural, we've just got two brothers, completely criminal surviving off credit card scams going around the country, solving problems, because they can, it's it's such a stark contrast.
Emi Grate 1:42:56
i Who's, who's the hero figure? Yeah, it may go as far back as Confucius? Well, because his teachings also has like, the very structural thing of, of your parents or priority, your role in society is priority. And all you have to do on top of that the cherry on top is, yes, you are one piece of this society. And the cherry on top is there is one person at the very top who is in charge of everything. You don't have to worry.
Brad 1:43:28
Confucius was was special. Did Confucius have much of an impact on Burmese society, though?
Emi Grate 1:43:35
I would say so. Wow. Um, this is the default answer that I give when people ask me. So what's Burma like? I would always answer, it is the only country on the Indochina peninsula that is in contact with both India and China. So every cultural thing you can experience will be a combination of the two. I was saying a Buddhist and really came from Nepal to from the India side and Confucian ideas came from China. So I would say yeah.
Brad 1:44:14
Wow. Because I mean, Confucius. I, I suspect and I know other people who suspect that Confucius, based on his writings suffered from some variety of autism spectrum disorder, very, very strong desire for everything to be codified, defined, arranged within a system and for the rules of that system to be incredibly rigid and, and respected. And that's fine when you're organizing your bedroom. A little bit less fine when you're trying to run a state. And when people's lives depend on you know, how many rows of dancers are permitted to perform at the court of lesser nobles and things like this. So yes, if if if cuffs socialism influenced Myanmar culture, then definitely that would have been at least the one of the important Geneses of the current situation that we see. But yeah, it's very strange. I find Burmese people are still very independent in a lot of ways. A lot of Burmese people don't wait around for authority and and people to say, Oh, this is what you should do. There's a strong willingness just do the thing.
Emi Grate 1:45:28
Which, which also ties us back into the current revolution? Because within four, which is in terms of the pro democracy movement, we've always waited on Alcestis G. Yes. This is the first time we're acting on our own. Without that I'm kind of proud of the people for that.
Brad 1:45:50
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's it's important that I think it's important for democracy, to not invest everything in one person. There are too many systems that do that, and then they they eventually fall. It's important for the people to take care of themselves.
Emi Grate 1:46:07
I have a suspicion that for a lot of these people this Oh, really? Yeah, I, there are people who still have absolute faith and would like to wait on ourselves for where we go next.
Brad 1:46:27
I mean, yes, but she's in detention, and the military is not waiting around. So yeah, things things have to happen. It this is definitely a discussion that I've had with a lot of people, it's definitely coming in very frequently. With the trial coming up. We know nonsense, which is verdict has been deferred until the sixth. But the fact of the matter is, I think a lot of people are coming around to the idea that ancestry has done a lot for the country. She's done a lot for the pro democracy movement. She's, you know, she, she's outstanding, in terms of the achievements that she's brought for, for people, but at the same time, she can't single handedly hold the reins of government and hold of the military. That's this. It's just not realistic. The state needs to move forward one way or another. And yeah, I think it's important for us to have those discussions.
Emi Grate 1:47:27
And this is this is tension, because we have brought into the conversation, the straw for democracy in Burma since the first cool, I would say, since the first two are not the first two since since Ada, I would say has been the weird we are sibling rivalry between the two children of Allison. Also Soo Ji, and the military. And I think this also came up while I was listening to these Burmese supernatural stories. Um, so the specific date of the fourth of January in 1948 was chosen because the stars are aligned in a way that would make the military strong for the next century or something.
Brad 1:48:22
I mean, then again, numerology has not always worked for the military. We remember knee when changing the currency to a nine based system because that was more lucky for him. So I've laid out some of the numerology, but, so here's the thing, the military continues. And, and the numerology continues, I mean, the I'm convinced that the attacks that we saw on the third of March was specifically chosen because 3321 has a repetition of numbers, and it adds up to nine. And we saw widespread crackdowns indiscriminate murder, we've seen some of the most horrendous violence, this current conflict in Myanmar is the longest lasting internal conflict if you don't count the on and off civil wars between the military and ethnic group and the BIOS. But you know, apart from that this is longer than than the Saffron Revolution, this is longer than the 1988 revolution. And the death toll is also higher, even by the military's own estimates, which are very low estimates, it has to be said. And one thing that one thing that really, I don't know, it gives me a bit of hope. Because I know that homophobia is is alive and well in the country. But the queer community during the protests, were very much front and center. You know, we had drag queens in full costume on the streets protesting. You had you know, gay communities with pride flags, you had all of these things and I, my question is sort of a combination is number one. What? What role does your art form have in times of crisis? But number two, what impact do you think this revolution is going to have and these ongoing actions are going to have in the visibility of the queer community during them, is going to have on the acceptance of the queer community going forward.
Emi Grate 1:50:25
Um, first off, shout out to the LGBT union in Mandalay for being front and center and leading the protests, I am really proud of the queer people from my hometown,
Brad 1:50:37
with regard to performative art such as drag, what role does that have? And what role can that play in times of great turmoil like this?
Emi Grate 1:50:52
I think it can be a source of strength and inspiration. From my personal experience, I have always been politically engaged more or less in my performances, because my existence is very political sighs even here in the US. And before 2016, everybody was absolutely certain that Hillary Clinton was going to be the next President of the United States. So whenever I would pick up issues, or so would always be here, we'll be fine under Clinton, all. But after the results of the 2016 election came out, everybody's started freaking out wanting to be political. And the narratives started becoming Orange Man equals bad. And my analysis, if that was this isn't taking us anywhere. We've known that orange equals bad for a while now. But we're here. Let's talk about where do we go here, things to look forward to how we can fight right now, what to look forward to in the future. So the narratives in my work, even though their political is started shifting, I started doing more things, more performances, or narratives where I can tell the people, Hey, you're feeling bad. But there are things to be thankful for be happy about and look forward to. I think performance, performing arts can be a source of that. I'm also in good times, if times are not bad. In good times, it can also be a reminder to people to examine things they take for granted, this kind of goes back to the idea of a drag, challenging norms. Things People would not usually look at because nobody needs to put that much hair and makeup on, if you're putting on that machine makeup and outfits, or do you have something important to say I want to listen to you? It can be an entry point like that. Um, okay. So that was the answer the first question, but I think it kind of also touches on the second one.
Brad 1:53:33
Definitely. Definitely. So what was what what do you think is is the impact of this like, do you do you think, for example, that during the coup and the upheaval, there is an opportunity to not just break down the norm that the military rules the country, but also the norm that men dominate women, and that gay people are somehow lesser?
Emi Grate 1:53:54
Yes, I'm also because this is the first time I have heard it the revolution. Or like the fight against the military people talking not just about we need democracy and not the military, which has always been the MO. On this one people are talking about, oh, we have throngs the ethnic groups over the past few centuries. How do we make up for it? Yes. They're actively working on it. And also, women's rights. Women have been on the front lines, and also queer people. And even more recent than queer people's revolution, I would say is the working class revolution because firmer has been going through industrialization, I would say, preset factories for a while but like foreign investment is finally coming in. And we're having a lot of workforce that's dealing not just with internal affairs, but also international economics. Common Workers Union is At the front lines so the people who have nothing to lose but everything to gain are on the front line. And they control the narrative and they're being seen and hurt. And I hope the result of the revolution will do right by those people. And I have one more thought. And the general public getting to see these people marched on the frontlines. Makes makes them recognize their humanity makes people recognize your humanity, that they have their own needs and wants, and they're willing to express them and risked their lives for them. Um, you shouldn't have to prove that much to be recognized, sort of like shaking them on. You don't have to go to the frontlines to be recognized as human but it is what it took. And it's finally happening and I hope it'll stay.
Host 1:56:08
You've been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we'd appreciate it very much. If you could rate review and or share this podcast, every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes. If you can't find our feed on your podcast player, please just let us know and we'll ensure it can be offered there in the future. Also, make sure to check out our website for a list of our complete episodes, including additional texts, videos and other information available at insight myanmar.org. And I also invite you to take a look at our new nonprofit organization at better burma.org. There was certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a post request specific questions and join in on discussions currently going on. On the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You're also most welcome to follow our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter accounts by the same name. If you're not on social media, feel free to message us directly at info at insight myanmar.org. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that form here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible. Currently, our team consists of two sound engineers, Mike Bink, and Martin combs. There's of course that Kessler content collaborator and part time co host can pransky helps with editing and a special Mongolian volunteer who is asked to remain anonymous does our social media templates. In light of the ongoing crisis in Myanmar, a number of volunteers have stepped in to lend a hand as well. And so we'd like to take this time to appreciate their effort and our time of need. And we're always on the lookout for more volunteers during this critical time. So if you'd like to contribute, definitely let us know. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us in arranging for the guests we've interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves, for agreeing to come on and share such personal powerful stories. Finally, we're immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We want to remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own and don't necessarily reflect the host or other podcast contributors. Please also note that we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show. There's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us this recording is the exclusive right of insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes a video audio written transcripts or excerpts of any episodes are also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we're very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. If you would like to support our mission, we welcome your contribution. During this time of crisis, all donations now go towards supporting the protest movement in Myanmar through our new nonprofit better Burma. You may give by searching better Burma on PayPal Venmo Cash App, GoFundMe and Patreon as well as via credit card at better burma.org/donation. You can also give right on our insight Myanmar website as all donations given there are directed towards the same fund. And with that, we're off to work on the next show. So See you next episode