Transcript: Episode #92: The Language of Freedom
Following is the full transcript for the interview with Katie Craig, which appeared on February 24, 2022. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.
Katie Craig 00:05
I was like what makes us human, and we like don't even talk about it. And I think, again, if we would all just talk about it more, we could just help each other understand language more.
Brad 00:18
Thank you for joining us on The MindScape podcast. My guest today is Katie Craig Craig, an American linguist, who spent the past seven years studying minority languages in Myanmar, and the complex and often fought politics around those languages. She's also the co founder of VMI indigenous community partners, an NGO that works with minority groups to help them preserve, expand and pass their languages onto the next generation. Today, she will be taking us through the complex and misunderstood linguistic landscape of Myanmar, sharing her experiences working with minority language communities, and hopefully dispelling a few language with some of the way.
Katie Craig 01:15
He he made a. Mistake? Yes, so I grew up in Dallas, Texas, and the United States. And they were, they still are lots of people from all over the world with refugees and immigrants. And yeah, just a variety of people. So I always was really interested in them and their languages and their cultures. It was just so distant from me and my experience growing up in a very white bread place, as we say, yeah, and then I went to university, and I changed in America, you can like change your spouse specialization, your major, really as many times as you want. So I had, I was kind of hopping between different studies. And for one degree program, I had to take a linguistics class. So that's when I realized that I liked linguistics. I didn't know what linguistics was, before that, and so I kind of dove into that. I went to went on to get a master's in linguistics. And while I was doing my master's program, I met a lot of Burmese refugees. I lived in this neighborhood with people, again, refugees and immigrants from all over the world. And a lot of them were from what we now know was Myanmar. So then it kind of all came together. I was like, Well, I can move to Myanmar. So I did that after I finished my degree in 2014. And, yeah, that's what I've been doing since then working sort of in what we call language development, in Myanmar, so specifically, typically in language and education, but also kind of more broadly.
Brad 03:30
That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm just wondering, you say that you're working in education, these sorts of things. We know that the prior to the coup, there was a lot of push to change the education system in the country. Traditionally, education has ended in year 10 matriculation exams would typically be done after someone's about 16 years old. And they wanted to bring that up to about 18 years. But of course, we also know that education in the countries is very Bomar language dominant. So were you working with the central government? Were you working with just local communities? What sort of organizational structure were you interacting with?
Katie Craig 04:15
In the past, it was pretty much strictly non government and not always even a kind of formal education system, sometimes just like, either after school programs or like Sunday school programs, especially focused on literacy, since there are many communities that don't have their own schools, but then there are other communities where they do have their own schools, so then it would be kind of working formally within the education system. And recently, you mentioned the sort of education reforms the state government, the central government, I started to I'm not even sure what the word to use is develop and implement the local curriculum, which has not sound very well defined, lots of people don't really know what it is. So it's still kind of confusing, really, it's kind of it's been implemented some places, not other places, and some people don't really understand what it is. So anyway, I'd say we've been doing a bit with that, as well. So that will be under the central government.
Brad 05:35
Interesting. So this allows us to really start delving into this question of language in education within Myanmar. So first of all, you mentioned this local curriculum. From the way that you describe it, evidently, it's not something that is particularly well defined and set out. But in your opinion, what is it supposed to be? What is the concept behind it?
Katie Craig 06:01
So I think it comes from a lot of these non Burma groups asking or demanding for their languages to be used in schools. That's, what's the word for something that's important to them, they want to maintain their language and their culture. They want their kids to understand just their identity, really. And they don't want them to necessarily switch to using other languages. So yeah, I think that's kind of where I came out of, but we can also see, you know, like the research that's been done internationally all over the world that students can learn additional language, additional languages to higher level high proficiency, they can they have more success in learning additional languages, if they have a foundation in their first language, which is kind of a basic concept of education. That's the idea. Like scaffolding you build on what the learner already knows, if the learner already knows, you know, this languages or a few languages, you can build on that linguistic repertoire to help them gain proficiency and competence in other languages. Yeah, if that makes
Brad 07:24
sense. Yeah. So with this local curriculum have been? So what I think I'm trying to drive at is, was this an attempt by the central government to say, we will allow you to study your language as a subject in government schools, or was in an attempt to say, we will allow you to complete the entire national curriculum in your native language.
Katie Craig 07:44
So right now, it's just one subject. So it's not really ideal. But I think maybe that research was one of the things that helped convince the government to start to allow this. And I should say, originally, I made it sound like it was supposed to be only local language teaching. But then it kind of morphed into two different things, the ethnic language teaching portion, and then the local knowledge portion. So the non local knowledge portion. It's supposed to be in Burmese, it hasn't been implemented yet. But the portions of the curriculum that have been written, they're all in Burmese.
Brad 08:25
But so that, so what you're saying is that it's not just about changing the language of instruction, it is also about localizing the content of instruction, to to apply to identity.
Katie Craig 08:37
Be theoretically also the ideal local isn't very well defined in the protocol for this local curriculum. So there's sort of some confusion is this local? Like local economy, local agriculture, or is this referring to, like a particular ethno linguistic community identity?
Brad 09:04
Yeah, so it sounds like even the people who might have been well meaning in trying to set up the system may not themselves are fully understood what parameters need to be set in order for this to be effective?
Katie Craig 09:18
Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what they were thinking to be honest.
Brad 09:23
So, okay, so then let's let's just pretend you had your perfect world. I mean, we have so many examples of multilingual societies. I know that in the West, we tend to forget about this a lot, especially in the Anglosphere. We have this idea of like, really, of course, every country has a national language. And, you know, that's all it is. But you know, we have many examples of pluricentric multilingual communities, and education is approached in different ways. Could you can you find a comparison to another country system that you think would work that you think would be effective for the Burmese context?
Katie Craig 10:00
I'm not sure that there is, you know, I think there's still a lot of like standard language ideology. And we're kind of obsessed with this notion of being a native speaker or being fluent. But really, you could say like, there's not really any such thing as being fluent, because language is always changing. So it's kind of a moving target. Right? And, and everyone has their own throat near like door family, like their own dialect, whatever you want to call it, right? So it's like, well, fluent, what do you mean? Like, who defines what fluent is? Who, when do become fluent? Right? Kind of the same thing with being a native speaker? Well, who just decides what that means? What does it mean to be a native speaker, which is, I think, pretty obvious with English, right? If you grew up in Singapore, speaking English as your first language, you're not necessarily seen as a native speaker, even if that is your first language and it's the only language that you speak. So yeah, I think that's part of my work. And part of what I'm passionate about as well sort of what's the word analyzing, challenging these notions that we have I just kind of commonly accepted but don't really reflect reality.
Brad 11:16
Okay, so you see yourself not only as, as working to protect the languages themselves, and keep them from from being, you know, potentially wiped out and we're going to talk about that because there's a there's a lot of history to unpack there. But you also want to fight this sort of meta linguistic, if we can say that our fight to to let people know that they they carry a lot of harmful misconceptions. And and they forced themselves into these strange situations that they absolutely do not need to in order to function in order to be valuable members of society. Is that Is that right?
Katie Craig 11:57
Yeah, yeah, I would say that you know, sometimes. So like sometimes in my work, we talk about mother tongue based multilingual multilingual education. MTB mle, or that this idea of starting the first language and then moving to another language. So, even though you know, there are some helpful concepts, and it can be, it can be some practical tools that you can use in that model, it's still kind of sometimes doesn't necessarily, yeah, challenge these notions that we have of language and identity and how we use language and what language is. So it makes sense. Sometimes it can actually sort of exacerbate these harmful ideologies and linguistic discrimination.
Brad 12:45
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna put a pause on that particular one, because it is it is such a brilliant topic, and I'm happy you brought it up. But I want to circle back and cover the sort of background and history before we delve into to that stuff. As exciting as it is I'm champing at the bit here. But the Myanmar context so many of our listeners are familiar with the Myanmar context, they have some connection to the country. But you know, I myself lived in Yangon. And I very rarely ventured outside of Yangon. And if I did, I went to the ball, I went to Naypyidaw, I went to other places within the Bama dominated regions, I was very rarely in nonverbal regions. And unlike a lot of people, I really did not grasp the true scale of the linguistic challenge that the country faces, I would call it very much a challenge. So could you in your own words, for the benefit of everyone listening, just tell us what has been the linguistic background here, and particularly the clash between languages and the loss of languages?
Katie Craig 13:53
Yeah, it's interesting that you use the word challenge. I would challenge that notion, right. I think often we see language as sort of obstacles or barriers or problems. But really, they can be a huge resource. I mean, having all this linguistic diversity means you'll have all these different perspectives and different ways of viewing the world and different ways of navigating the world. But you know, tests are taking it back to what you're really wanting to ask. Yeah, Geez, it's hard to know where to start. I mean, yeah, like you said, it's very linguistically diverse. Gosh, yeah. To think about where to start with that. Maybe will be helpful to talk about linguistic identity.
Brad 14:52
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's the occurred to me after I asked the question, actually, that that would be a thing. So let me just pose a question. On the editing team can cut that previous part out. Okay? Yeah, so this is good. I'm liking so. So can you explain for us? And can you tell us? What is the significance of language to a community? What role does that play in that identity? What makes that language and its preservation so important?
Katie Craig 15:28
Yeah, I mean, I think all of us use identity as a tool to construct our identity, right? The sort of essential part of ourselves, so I'm on an existential level. So it carries a lot of existential importance. If you lose your language, it's like losing yourself. Right? You can feel like you're losing your agency, because you're losing your voice, sort of on a fundamental level. Yeah, and if you think about it, language is like, what kind of what makes us human, it's kind of this unique feature of humanity. It's how we move through the world. Everything goes through language. So every, every aspect of our life, every sector, every domain, uses language. Right? It's essential to everything we do as human beings, especially as we interact with others. Right, it's our primary tool for interacting with the rest of society. So it's really central to everything, and especially in Myanmar, since it's so diverse, and identity and belonging are quite contentious. So it can also be used as a tool as a weapon even to decide who belongs and who doesn't. For better or for worse.
Brad 16:54
Let me join him. Because and so you, I want to play devil's advocate, I just want to clarify for everyone. I grew up as an immigrant, you know, I speak a minority language. My language is obviously the majority language in the country that I come from. But in the country where I live, it's a minority language. So I have very great sympathy, but purely to play devil's advocate, Would you not agree with the argument that some people make that it is better for the perspective of national unity and cohesion, from the perspective of the operation of a state, from border to border, if all of the people in that state communicate in the same language?
Katie Craig 17:45
No, not necessarily. I think we can see this and me and my, you know, whenever you sort of prop up one language against all the others, that language and the people who identify with that language kind of not on top. Right, so it kind of can create more tension and less social cohesion. Right.
Brad 18:15
I mean, if there is conflict, but I think the argument that is sometimes brought up is that if we achieve the next generation of the generation after that, for example, if we look at the way that language has shifted in China, to bring up an example, you know, in China, we see in certain places like Inner Mongolia, where two generations ago, Mandarin Chinese was very much a foreign language that was learned in school, the previous generation would speak Mandarin, Chinese and Mongolian, both very competently. And the latest generation very often do not pick up much of their heritage language, and they learn standard Mandarin, in schools, and they speak that as their their predominant language and the strongest language. So it's a very gradual shift. The argument that we would hear from government in China is that this is beneficial, because now the people of Inner Mongolia do not face language obstacles in moving to urban centers, they're more effective in communicating with our government. Trade has been facilitated national unity has been facilitated. Nobody says, I don't belong to China, because I speak a different language. That would be the argument Do you know sort of see any merit in that particular approach?
Katie Craig 19:28
Yeah, I think they started things I could say, I mean, first you have to be okay with losing that language, which means like losing a lot of knowledge, losing a lot of ways of dealing with issues that pieces like climate change, right. Different languages and have different information sort of encoded in them. Quite literally scientific information, right. Different medicinal medicinal properties of different plants and trees and things like that. Just have information about ecologies and geography etc, etc. But you can also lose a lot of history when the speakers of a language either die off or they switch to another language. Often you lose a lot of that history. So I think, first you have to be okay with losing, like a wealth of information. You know, sometimes linguists will quote, what they say it's an African proverb, I have no idea where it comes from, or who even said it, but they say, when a language dies, it's like a library burning down with it. But it's not even just any old library. It's a library with like, you make titles that you can't find anywhere else. Oh, well, I mean, it's like this idea that you have to all speak one language. I don't understand why we sort of went it's a foregone conclusion. Right, wouldn't we? Can we also construct sort of a pluralistic I guess, I densities, like we sort of already do. I think it's kind of a myth. Like we're not static people. And culture isn't static, nothing static, everything is dynamic. Everything's changing, everything is intersecting with other things. Right, we have intersecting identities. So I think that's kind of a myth that there is, or that we can have this sort of very fixed linguistic identity or even a fixed sort of national identity, if that makes any sense.
Brad 21:36
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. I I feel like I say I'm playing devil's advocate just because the the, this particular line of argument is brought up just so very often. And and because we see language weaponized, we do, we, we see language and identity both being weaponized by governments and by national groups, where the division between language and dialect is legislated. And it's not based on necessarily any linguistic fact, it's just based on this idea of, I need a line in the sand between my group of people and the other group of people. And this sort of thinking is something that I think is quite dangerous, and not helpful. So that that's sort of why I wanted to just bring up the devil's advocacy, because, as you say, as you say, loss of languages is loss of culture. And, and there are, you know, ancient ancient stories encoded, I was just reading the other day that the some of the currently people have an ancient tale that they tell talking about a shifting river of sand. And archeologists and anthropologists try to use these sorts of folk stories that are largely untranslated to try and track the migratory history of entire ethnic groups of people and try to find their their sort of ancient homeland. And it would be lost to, you know, all humanity for all time, if if those languages died outside. I just want to reiterate, I am, I am very, very, very, very happy that, that people like you exist that are preserving these languages. However, in in the Myanmar context, factually speaking, I think we can say that there has been a very strong dominance of the Burma language, and a very strong preference for the Burma language in governance, to the point where a lot of citizens who cannot speak and cannot read and write Bomar have been left disadvantaged and unable to defend themselves in court have been left unable to retain their property and retain their citizenship rights in some extreme cases. So what? How severe would you say, is the risk posed to minority languages into the speakers of minority languages in your mom?
Katie Craig 24:08
A lot. I mean, I guess another thing we could talk about with your previous question, as well as the trauma of losing your language, the trauma of like forced assimilation, which also goes hand in hand with the fact that this language that they're being forced to use, or people are trying to force them to use it is also the language that they were traumatized and to begin with. Right, me and my has a very long history of violence and conflicts. Sometimes quite literally, that's the language. That was the heard. Right before you show I saw your village burned down before you saw your parents shot or before you were raped. Right. So there's a lot of trauma wrapped up in, in language sort of in two different ways right losing your language. but also the language that was used why you were being traumatized? So there's that sort of psychological aspect. Yeah, there's also the fact that they can't really participate in society if they don't not just know Burmese, but use Burmese sort of in the correct way. Right. Kind of going back to the standard language ideology, suitable when they do learn Burmese, they're still stigmatized. Right? Because they don't sound like a quote unquote, native speaker. So. Yeah, and so yeah, this stigma they faced prejudice and discrimination. Yeah, so that's just not really helpful for anyone that doesn't build social cohesion.
Brad 25:51
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's, it's important, I think, to emphasize, and I know that you've touched on this already a few times that trying to marginalize the language is marginalizing an entire identity the entire community, it's, it's a very egregious form of erasure that that very often just flies under the radar and doesn't get doesn't get noticed, doesn't get picked up. Because language is seen by so many people as this functional tool. And if that particular language is not judged to be particularly functional, then like a broken hammer, it should be discarded and replaced with a superior version. And that that's just not appropriate for language. That's just not how language works. That's not the language is to us, and especially communicating to the past generations, people who are dead, you know, their writings and their recorded voices. If we lose that language, we've lost the ability to connect to, to our own ancestors. But as you point out, the the ideology that many people carry just does not recognize this and does not have space for this thing.
Katie Craig 27:03
Yeah, I think along with that could probably, you know, do a little bit of a critique of capitalism, right? commodification of everything. But I think that's a whole nother subject. That's definitely not my area of expertise. But you can't write everything interacts with everything else. So you can't really isolate anything.
Brad 27:21
Absolutely, absolutely. And intangible value is just something that I feel that a lot of people in positions of power, pride themselves on ignoring, you know, and going on a tangent, but we've seen this with with things like infrastructure investment, we've seen this with vaccines for COVID, whatever, it's, it doesn't matter to them that it benefits society, if you can't put $1 amount on it, and you can't evaluate it against an alternative. It's not valuable in a specific sense, therefore, it's not valuable. And communities lose opportunity, very serious opportunities, sometimes crippling them for generations as a result of this type of thinking. So it is important to change that but I will wail myself up so I will not get political today.
Katie Craig 28:09
Well, it's kind of impossible. Languedoc.
Brad 28:13
Exactly. So so let's move on to the things that you have been doing. So prior prior to forming ICP. You were working with different language communities. Can you sort of tell us roughly which communities you will focus on?
Katie Craig 28:31
Yeah, I've talked to people from all over the country, really. Some chin communities, especially southern from Southern Qin state and Rakhine State. Who else have I worked with? I've worked with people from kitchen state. Some of them would probably identify as the kitchen, some of them we're not that they belong to. What a lot of people consider a kitchen subgroup, I suppose.
Brad 29:05
Other tribes have the kitchen, or is this a different subdivision?
Katie Craig 29:11
Yeah, so typically, people will say, okay, Jean Paul rungs I wa, Li Su, the chayton lab where the six kitchen languages, but a lot of the people belonging to those groups are identify as that ethnicity would resent that and would disagree for whatever reason.
Brad 29:35
Yeah, it was described to me in that way by by a coaching person saying there are six languages, and there are five tribes, but any language could exist within any one of these tribes. They're not the same thing. And they're not interchangeable at all. But my understanding may be completely wrong on that as well.
Katie Craig 29:54
Yeah, it's complicated, right. I mean, yeah. There's also sort of Have The Linguist would say, Okay, well, linguistically, you were related, this language came from this language, etc, etc. But sometimes that is kind of irrelevant if it's not how people actually use the language relate to the language and relate to each other. Right? Yeah. Yeah, some contain languages, or whatever you want to call them. Other Languages Other large languages like currently in sickle, Corinne? Yeah, really just language smog over the country. So some of them I worked closely with for a good amount of time. Other languages, it might just be a one off workshop or something like that.
Brad 30:44
Fascinating. And so looking at these groups, I'm just looking at this list. And it's it, it's already sort of intriguing me, because the kitchen, we just sort of touched on the kitchen and the complexity behind what does kitchen mean? What does it refer to? You know, how does that work? But you also mentioned the chin and the chin. I mean, just can you explain to me in your words, how, how the the chain work, like, is there such a thing as chin? Like, is there actually a unifier between them? Or is that an externally imposed grouping? Because it's such a linguistic li culturally, and identity literally, if we can invent that word, diverse and rich region of the country? It just fascinates me? Can Can you take me there?
Katie Craig 31:45
I mean, short answer. No, I can't really then I can try and I don't know give you some things to think about, I guess. I mean, one thing I guess that we don't always talk about is the fact that all these groups on the borders were kind of splintered. Right, whenever these international borders were defined by outsiders. So they were all kind of split. Which is, I think, relevant, for many reasons, right, we can see that the mom and the center weren't split. So there's multiple reasons why there's a large population of Burma people. That's just a side note. Yeah, so I mean, even the word chin, I mean, I think that's really only used within Myanmar, and India and Bangladesh. In other words, like, Cookie are used. Lucia used to be used, I don't know if that's really used anymore. And I think people have different ideas of who is chin and who's not chin? Who is cookie and who's not? Who is me so and who's not? Does that refer to a specific language or an entire sort of identity? So yeah, I think it's quite complicated. And I think in Myanmar, it becomes more complicated when, you know, sometimes you have more political representation, if you identify with a larger group, sometimes you have more physical protection, quite literally, if you identify with a large group, especially if they have guns. So yeah, it gets complicated. And sometimes, you might want to identify with a certain group in order to disassociate with another group. And sometimes a larger group will want to convince smaller groups to identify with them, because it gives them more. Thereby they strengthen numbers, it gives them more legitimacy. So yeah, it's complicated.
Brad 33:47
Does that okay, so that what you've just said, That is incredible, because, you know, we've heard of situations where people will cling to what in academic terms we could consider to be very small differences. Very, very small. Sort of signifiers of like, oh, you know, I inflict this particular case of this particular noun with an O, but those people on the other side of the river user, you, you know, very small difference. And they will say, well, that defines us as different different groups of people. So we've seen this sort of thing where groups of people already exist, and they sort of seek out tiny differences in behavior and tradition to justify a deeper divide. But now you're telling me that identity is a thing that it seems you're saying, groups will voluntarily change their identity or change the way that their identity relates to other identities, for reasons of political expediency? Is that correct?
Katie Craig 34:49
That's what I would say. Yeah, I think sometimes people don't always express that or sometimes aren't even aware. Why exactly? They make the decisions that they make. Like, for example, with a chin. Most of them will use the Roman script to write their language. So whenever I ask people, okay, like, why did you choose this because a lot of these groups didn't start writing their language until recently, some really just in the past few years. So it's still like fresh in their minds. And like for some of these people, they were the ones who decided how to write their language. So ask them, like, why did you decide to use roman scripts? Because it doesn't always fit very well, right. From this group was kind of made for different languages. till they get these reasons. Well, you know, the Burmese scripts wasn't very, what's the word? It couldn't represent our language accurately? Which would also be true for the Roman script, right? Yes. So then I have to come up, okay. Well, maybe there's other reasons why they're doing that. Maybe it's because they want to identify with their neighbors, they want to create this sort of common identity. And or maybe it's because that you feel like that reflects their Christian identity. Right? There's an association with Roman script and Christianity and Burmese with Buddhism sometimes. So I can't be the arbiter. I can't say for sure exactly why these groups make these kinds of decisions. But if we look across Myanmar, we can see these different things happening. And again, even within a certain group, maybe some people will say one thing, and some people say another thing. Yeah, there's not a lot of content.
Brad 36:33
So it's not always a fully conscious decision. It's just something that arises in the mix. And people might not fully understand why they, they might not even fully be aware that they've made a conscious choice to do that, that they've made a choice rather to do something. They just sort of did what they thought was a natural, natural thing to do. And then somebody else would be the first one to post that question saying, Did you consider that there were alternatives to this? Why did you?
Katie Craig 37:09
Yeah, that's what I think I could be wrong. I mean, there's one cin group that uses Brahmi scripts. I actually have never worked with them directly. But from what it sounds like, from other people, other 10 people is that it's kind of used to express their Buddhist religion, it's kind of their way to mark their identity as Buddhists. So again, people could have different views on that, right, that might be an outsider saying that, I don't know.
Brad 37:44
Still, it's still such a tiny little things, but they can be very, very powerful symbolically, and they can really point to to something that is just subconscious, within a community. But there is a very powerful divide and a powerful motivator within a community. That's really cool. So I want to move to let's look at the Kurama Karenni. I mean, this applies to other communities as well. But so I'm wondering, this just the situation in in the fields, there is a, there are a lot of current languages, a lot of current languages. But my understanding is that you have a lot of varieties that are mutually intelligible, you have a lot of varieties that are totally earthen sky different. Do you do find when you're doing this work, that it is just very difficult to make meaningful distinctions between different languages? Or do you find that bothering to say, this is this language, and that is that language is just not even a useful thing to to worry about?
Katie Craig 38:54
Well, like I said, like, we generally have to sort of go with whatever local people say, right? If they decide that this is one language, and sometimes we just have to go along with that. So with that, what happens sometimes is for people that speak the powerful or prestigious variety or dialect, or sometimes clearly different language, will impose their way of using language on others. Right? So it's kind of an obviously a balancing act, right? Because we can't just come in. And so well, this is this I went, and this is that language, if that's not how people will actually use the language of view them. Does that make sense?
Brad 39:39
Yeah, but from from the perspective of an educator, if you have, let's say, a school of children, some of whom were raised speaking of prestige dialect, others of whom are race speaking a variety of the language that is quite different. They're, they're being disadvantaged if they go to school, and they're being told, Well, you're speaking the same language. Speaking at badly, yeah, which is incorrect. They're not they're speaking a completely different variety. Right? Do you do try to engage with that? Do you try to reach out to groups and say, hey, you know, can I take you to that village over there? And and can I watch you try and order things in the market? And maybe you'll have a realization that language doesn't quite work that way.
Katie Craig 40:23
Yeah, it's yeah, it's can be tricky. And it's so sensitive, and it's so politicized. Yeah, people can get pretty upset if you try to make those kind of claims like, because they're sometimes coming at it from a more, I guess, political point of view, and they don't want their group to be splintered anymore. They don't want to be sort of relegated to this sort of ancillary role, if that makes any sense. So yeah, so sometimes I think it's not something that I have figured out completely, honestly. But it's something that we run into, we're like, well, this isn't going to work for everyone, because these other kids just don't understand. Sometimes you can say that sometimes you can even like show people, when people so won't necessarily accept it, because it's very important for them to maintain their community, I guess and maintain their identity maintain. You know, like I said, there can be strengthen numbers, right? So if they get smaller and smaller and smaller than they become more or less than significant, if that makes sense. Yeah. So yeah, sometimes I think we can acknowledge, say, Okay, this is one language, but you know, people can speak differently. So we'll look, how can we help these students? If they don't need us this? They called bones or gods like the, the, I'm not sure how to translate it the common language, I guess. Yeah. Which, you know, is that actually common language or not? That's another question. But if that's what they decide, you kind of have to work around that. So yeah, and there's also the fact that, you know, we can only do so much at one time. So sometimes it does start at some place, start with, start with whatever they think the bones are guys, whatever the common languages and then develop more materials, if new materials for other varieties of that language or other different languages entirely. Does that make sense?
Brad 42:40
It absolutely does. It's just the one thought that's going through my mind is this. It feels so strange to me the things you're saying it's like a smaller version of the mentality that we've seen play out on the on the national level, where you might have people coming in and saying, Well, yeah, but this is the permalink, which isn't the standard. And there's a reason for that and strengthen numbers. And you know, we want to be unified, and we want to bring everyone under the same umbrella. And then you have this community who says no, no, no, we don't want that. Because we are our own people with our own history, our own heritage, our own identity. And we want to preserve that. But they may without being fully aware that they're doing this be playing out a very similar thing with minorities within that, that broad group and say, oh, yeah, but you know, you don't have a separate identity. You just speak the language incorrectly. And even if that's not true, there's strength in numbers, it's better for our cohesion and unity. If you abandon your ways and adopt our standard and things like this. It just feels ironic. is the word that I want to use here.
Katie Craig 43:49
Yeah, absolutely. Yep.
Brad 43:54
Yeah, that's just the reality that then we have to deal with.
Katie Craig 43:58
Yeah, I think that's another reason why, you know, there's a lot of what's the word really just kind of like a surface level or superficial inclusion of the quote unquote, ethnics, right? You have mentioned of Oh, and the tin and the Corinne and the kidney and the chef in the kitchen. So if we list all these different groups, then we're good. We've included them and everything is copacetic. All good. When in reality, that's not true. Besides the fact they are excluding like completely separate languages that don't fall into those umbrellas, right. Within many languages groups, yeah, there's lots of different languages, there's different people under those sort of umbrellas construct their identity in different ways. Some of them resent being put under that umbrella, some people don't, etc, etc. So yeah, sometimes kind of exacerbates the issue.
Brad 44:56
I mean, absolutely. When you're when you're in Yangon or something like that. You know, the people in Yangon, they're so used to the song brain, if if they come from ethnic minorities, they know what the deal is, they're just going to say on this group, I'm that group. And they're going to list off one of the 135 officially recognized groups, because they know that most people are not going to listen to them, they're not going to care about what their actual identity is. But when you go out of that bubble, and you go to these regions, and you say, like, Oh, so you know, this group of people, they're like, I don't know what that is, but it definitely does not apply to me, I've got my own thing, my own identity, my own people, my own everything. It's a bit of a sort of wake up. When you realize that like, no, no, these identities are just artificially imposed on a lot of these people, for organizational advantages, and for administrative reasons and historical reasons, but they're not based on actual communication with his groups and an understanding of their contexts. So it's very unfortunate that we live in this we have these these identities and mutual intelligibility that there's a an interesting part. So we talk about all these ethnic minority languages we talk about, you know, Shana, Quranic channeling all this other stuff. But one topic that often does not really get delved into is varieties of Burma. Because, again, we're in it's in this unique, privileged position. Burma is the language and everyone recognizes that there are some small differences was all you know, there are people young girls who don't pronounce da they pronounce it as DOD, things like this. But when we go to Rakhine, when we go to the way, when we go to AIT, we start seeing varieties of Bama that are just so wildly different, that native speakers of the model will just get completely lost in conversation. And I've heard people argue vociferously that this is Bomar. And I've heard people argue equally vociferously that these are completely separate identities. Have you dealt with any of these varieties?
Katie Craig 47:07
I'm not especially I made a little bit with direct kind. Yeah, it's super interesting. If you go like to Rakhine State. And you know, Burmese, it's feels like at first you're like, Okay, I can understand this. And then it's sort of like, take so weird, right turn like, oh, I don't understand what's happening here. So I think, yeah, that kind of shows how a language doesn't necessarily exist as a discrete entity, right? The borders between language and dialect or variety are kind of fuzzy sometimes and sometimes it's in the process of changing. Right. I think that happens with Rakhine sometimes, you know, because I worked with a lot of Qin people from Rakhine State who spoke Rakhine. So sometimes they couldn't really even they would forget, like, what was what kind of what was for me? Sometimes I would say something Rakhine thinking that they're talking to me in Burmese, but I wouldn't understand. Like, oh, wait, that's a different thing.
Brad 48:14
So even in them, so this is the question, of course, because we have, we have diglossia. And the average from our person, you know, they understand that there is a clear distinction between spoken Burmese and literary Burmese. And even when they are writing, they are very conscious of the distinction between the two. And I've seen mixing, I've seen written work that mixes some formal markers with some informal words. But as a general rule, they understand that they treat both of these as the same language, just different registers with the reclined. Do you have any insight into how they perceive it? Like, would they think, Oh, I'm jumping between what kind of Burmese? Or would they think, Oh, I'm jumping between, you know, how I speak versus how the people in the city speak so that this person can understand me?
Katie Craig 49:06
Yeah, I think in general, like I haven't worked with kind people that much, but from what I can tell, it seems like they definitely draw a line between what is recurring and Fermi's as a sort of existential identity, if that makes sense.
Brad 49:23
Yes, yes. Just not just linguistic it is deeper than that.
Katie Craig 49:27
He Yeah. So they want to kind of be a separate language, even if it's linguistic, really related. As well as the fact that they are doing some code switching since there's so much language contact there's kind of probably some language shift. But again, I'm not an expert in Rakhine it's not I don't really work closely with Rakhine
Brad 49:47
I appreciate that but yeah, the your the insights that you can offer are still fascinating to me. I've I've never been to Rakhine, so I have no no concept of it myself. So I really appreciate you hearing your views on that. So. So let's let's jump forward in time now a little bit, because I'm not doing this chronologically. So you formed your, your organization and your organization is Myanmar indigenous community partners. And you found that this year, correct?
Katie Craig 50:23
Yeah, we can.
Brad 50:25
Yeah. So it's been a complicated year for Myanmar. I think that's very fair to say. And can you just walk me through this, you know, a coup has broken out the country is is unstable. And you decide to form this this organization? What, what challenges and difficulties are you facing trying to do that in amongst the chaos in the country?
Katie Craig 50:54
Yeah, you know, most of the communities that we work with have been living in this kind of conflict for a long time. So especially for me, since I haven't been living in conflict, then this kind of a new thing for me to experience personally. That was asked them like, despite what's going on how they feel about it, and how they're adjusting, and they're like, Well, you know, we're used to this, like we've had to run before we've had to work in the jungle before. So it's not really all that new for them. Yeah, they've kind of learned how to adjust.
Brad 51:34
It is horrifying, because I cannot think of many Burmese friends that I have with ethnic Burma or not, who have not experienced some form of ridiculous hardship in their childhoods. Some of them have particularly egregious stories, as you can imagine. And there's just something about it that it I don't know, it still surprises me every single time that people have simply adjusted to living under these sorts of conditions and living in this sort of a horrendous reality. It's, it never stops shocking me, I think, to realize that it is possible to be subjected to that much abuse, that you simply accept it as a reality of your life. But
Katie Craig 52:24
yeah, that's pretty horrifying. That's pretty sad.
Brad 52:28
It is, it is. But hopefully, you know, little things help shine a light on on these crises overseas so that people can understand just how severe this situation is. But returning to, to this. So I just want to ask, what exactly are you doing as ICP? Have you changed your operations? Since you formed ICP? Or are you sort of continuing the same basic activities?
Katie Craig 52:59
Yeah, so we, all of us, there's basically, three sort of co founders. The other two are from Myanmar, from non Burma, indigenous communities. So yeah, we've been working. as consultants, we've done some research, both of my colleagues have their PhDs, so they did their research in this kind of language, education, linguistics space. So yeah, we're continuing on projects that we were already working on, not necessarily as MSAP, but as individuals as consultants. But something else, I think that especially for me, as an outsider, I feel like a need to do more of this kind of awareness raising, sort of letting people know, like, not even facts. I'm not trying to say, but just like, helping people know what questions I should be asking and how they should be. Maybe looking at things a little bit differently, because I don't have all the answers and I'm not Burmese. And I don't have personal experience, like as a Burmese person, right. So I felt, yeah, I felt like I needed to do more of that. I was talking to one of my colleagues the other day, and I want to talk to them, you know, like, I feel like this isn't really my job. This isn't really my responsibility. I'm an outsider, like, how, why would I be doing this right and there just be a local person telling their own experience. But then I'm saying you know, but I just feel like people aren't hearing the voices of these people, not the more people especially in conflict affected areas and she said they the the art her because the people that know, aren't talking anymore, because she was saying, like I was saying before, there's just so much trauma and there's energetic original trauma, just layer upon layer of trauma. So the people that know just aren't talking anymore, they just Shut, shut off sort of. So I feel like more than I should be doing that. So they don't have to like relive their trauma. And because, you know, a lot of times whenever people bring up these kinds of topics, they kind of get us the word to catch a lot of flack, right. People don't really like it. They think, yeah, you're disruptive to Unity. Oh, you know, I read the one of the Kaku, Nambour list, I think it's called, it's a magazine. This woman Zoey hadn't noticed her name. So mood Z. She was writing on genocide. She said that genocide I'm reading now I'm quoting, is to read in history books that you no longer exists, and that your struggle for a self determining survival was disruptive to peace, and thus dishonorable. It is your tongue tripping over an alien language that is your birthright. It is watching architectural monstrosities erected on lands stolen from you and your family and your community. Which I feel like really relates to the Myanmar context and why I think what's the word? Why I think I sort of have a responsibility to speak out because the people that have already experienced this trauma, when they speak out, they're traumatized again, for one reliving that trauma. But then also, they're accused of what she said that they're being disruptive to peace, that they're the troublemakers because they're they're causing tension, they're creating less unity. Right. So I feel like I'm not sure how to say that. I can do this, I can sort of take on that. What's the word? What am I trying to say?
Brad 57:07
I think I think I grasp the the intention here that what what you just quoted, was beautiful and deeply depressing at the same time. As far as it that, I mean, that was actually very poignant, and very appropriate, but horrendous. And this is this is so you know, back at the beginning, when I was devil's advocate, and saying that there are voices saying that language, you know, doesn't necessarily have a right to exist. I mean, to take it to the most extreme place that we can take a conversation that that comes from minecon Earth, quite literally, there's a section where Hitler says, Not all people have a right to exist, and saying not all languages have a right to exist is at least in dangerous territory. But I think what you've just quoted is the perfect response, that saying that, well, this language doesn't have a way to exist, it's better for national unity. If if everyone speaks the same language, and everyone has the same identity. It's saying your struggle to just be allowed to be yourself, makes you by virtue of your existence, a threat to the state, and it makes you an enemy. Because you wouldn't just shut up and be the thing that I wanted you to be. Yeah. So I think yeah, I thank you for reading that. And for bringing that up. I think that was that was really beautiful. I've never heard that before. But putting it
Katie Craig 58:49
Yeah, the whole it was like the introduction to the entire issues on genocide. So her essay at the beginning is called on genocide. That's quite good.
Brad 59:02
That's so it's thought provoking. Yeah,
Katie Craig 59:05
that's what I was trying to say like, they're already kind of enemy then on top of that, when they try to speak out their enemy again. So I feel like they shouldn't really even have to be dealing with that. It's like, why can't I just speak out? Not for them. But you know what I'm trying to say? I absolutely do.
Brad 59:22
But I think and I know that this may not be a popular opinion, but I think you know if anything being a little bit too hard on yourself here. Why? I look. I think that as you point out within Myanmar society number one, these people are already marginalized in so many cases in so many ways. Just getting a foot in the door is difficult. And you know, there's there's not a lot of other way to say that. If you're white, your voice carries some weight in a lot of countries Myanmar included There is, I think, ethical merit in weaponizing. That privilege for the benefit of others. I think it's an appropriate thing to do. And I think that when we have a country, which is still plagued with these ideas that all then they're not languages, they're dialects, or they're not dialects, they just mangling the language. They're not different, they're inferior. It's, it's, I think, valuable to come in as an outsider and say, Hey, I know what you're saying. I'm familiar with it. But here are some things that that you should consider here are some arguments that you've not heard before. Let me make those arguments, let me help sort of push the discourse forward a little bit. And then that can segue on to saying like, so by the way, here's a community who's been saying the exact same things that I just presented to you. And they've been saying it for the last 25 years. Maybe you can continue the conversation with them now. So I think that the what you do is very valuable. I think that if you are respected, and if you are capable of pushing the issue forward, and you're capable of pushing the discourse forward, then it is a good thing that that you are doing that. It would be better if those people were being listened to in the first instance. But if you can help make people listen to them, then then I think you're bridging a very, very, very important gap. But you know, there will be people who disagree with me on that. And that's perfectly fine.
Katie Craig 1:01:33
Thank you, I guess sometimes I feel weary. There's so many people. So many experts talking about me and MMA, it's kind of exhausting. So we just don't want to like be adding to the noise.
Brad 1:01:45
I can definitely see value in that. And I would just like to point out that in the entire period of our interview, you have never once referred to yourself as an expert, which to me is very clear. Yeah. Which to me is a very good sign of someone who is reliable and honest with what they know. And what they don't know. There are very few people in the world who both are experts and claim to be experts. It's not it's not a common thing. I'm very wary of people who say I'm an expert, listen to me. Sorry, that's a distraction. That's a distraction. So I want to move on to something different. A passion of mine. And I know that something you've worked with quite a bit orthography development. This is, this is incredible. So for those who may not be familiar with this issue, in Myanmar today, there are I mean, do you have any any not bead on how many languages we're talking about even a ballpark estimate?
Katie Craig 1:02:57
Languages in general, in general
Brad 1:02:58
in the country? Yeah, I
Katie Craig 1:03:01
think it's, again, depends on how to find a language over 130. But again, most of these languages are pretty under served under researched. So we don't know exactly
Brad 1:03:13
the we don't know. So so many of these languages do not have a literary tradition, they don't have a written tradition. And this can happen for many reasons. Historically. Sometimes you just don't need to write things down or other times you would write things down in a different language. And so, your you and your team are engaged in assisting communities, creating a way in which they can write down their language, preserve their language, preserve their culture preserve their stories in a in a written transmissible form. And, and this is very, very difficult to do. Because, again, we as people who grow up reading and writing, think, oh, letters exist sounds exist, therefore we can just match a sound to a letter. But when you don't have a writing system to begin with, it's it's so difficult to find out what the sounds are, and and how we can formalize them how we can divide them. So can you take me through In brief, the process from beginning to end up sitting down with people who don't have a written form of language and and how you get to crafting something that they can use?
Katie Craig 1:04:32
Yeah, so first, you would start by collecting a word list. So you would just elicit different words. If you're not a speaker of that language, obviously, you have to use a different language to elicit those words. But if you already speak the language, then you don't really need to elicit them you can just record them yourself. So you create a a word list. Or I really there's different ways you could do it. You could Anyway, I won't go into details typically start with collecting a word list, recording all of those and then analyzing the sounds and the patterns of sounds in that language. So patterns of sounds and language is called the phonology. So which sounds change in what? Phonetic environments? Right? And then that's how you would ideally represent the language using symbols and letters. But like I've said before, sometimes the community already has a strong idea of how they want to represent their language. And so sometimes you just have to go with that, even if linguistically doesn't really make sense. Because if they don't like it, I'm not going to use it. And if they're not going to use it, then why are you doing what you're doing? So, yeah, it's usually I would say communities probably already have a good idea of like, what scripts they want to use if they're gonna use Roman script, or permies scripts. So then they have to decide what symbols to use for what sounds. So sometimes it's easy, like your K sounds, or B sounds, or T sounds, usually pretty straightforward. But then languages that have different tones are different for recall formation, which is pretty common. In Tibet, Oberman languages, like creaky voice, or breathy voice, or things that are happening in the throat, right with your glottis with your vocal cords. But especially if you're using Roman scripts, there's not really an easy way to represent those, there's not a straightforward or generally accepted way to represent those sounds. So you have to work through that. And then once they have that kind of settled, then they have to decide on spelling conventions, they have to cite on where word breaks will be punctuation, things like that. So once they have that are sort of a working orthography doesn't have to be perfect, they might change it later. You usually they will, because usually you need to sort of test it, to test it by trying to write down your language. So maybe we try to write down a story. So in the process of writing a story to kind of figure out, oh, well, this doesn't really work. And if you write it like this, then it's going to be confusing with this, who might read it. Like you may not be able to quite see what a slow brakes are. Suitable brakes are things like that. So there's kind of this continual process of revision, right? So then from there, yeah, the case keep writing, we keep writing. And that's how they learn to write their own language, at least in my experience, that's the best way to learn to read and write your own language. If you're like at that stage, right, just to try it out. Try to read try to write. And in that process, like I said, sort of refine it as you go along. And then from there, you just keep, keep recreating, keep teaching other people. Does that make sense?
Brad 1:08:03
It makes no sense. But assumptions, how much input do they have? Like, if if you call a linguist and you say, Okay, I need a writing system for this language, here's the sound system here, the phonotactic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, make it happen. A linguist can do that. But like you say, if you give something to a community, and they don't want to use it, for whatever reason, and they may have, you know, historical or political or just personal preference, then then it's wasted effort. So how does the interaction go? Like? Do you just recommend an idea? And then you run it past them? Or do you come up with a full project and give them the full project as it is and listen to their feedback? Or how does that interaction work?
Katie Craig 1:08:45
Yeah, it's definitely a back and forth. And ultimately, if you're an outsider, you can't make any decisions, you can just give your recommendations can kind of see how these kinds of things have gone awry. And the Americas and Australia there's actually a bit of resentment on the part of indigenous or Aboriginal peoples, towards these outside linguists. Yeah, sometimes even like these universities will, like, own or have the copyright of their language, which is kind of ridiculous. Yeah, it's their language. So it's really important to be really sensitive to that. And yeah, I think a lot of it just being aware of being sensitive, recognizing the fact that this isn't your language, your community, you probably would never even be using this orthography. So it's just not your choice. Does that make sense?
Brad 1:09:43
Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. I understand that. But the other one is, Do you get any pushback against the very concept of whining system? I know that there are some communities where literacy itself is viewed negatively, for example, the Yazidi community, from the Middle East have traditionally viewed literacy as something that that should be the domain of, of the clergy, and not something that other people should engage with. Have you ever received pushback against these efforts?
Katie Craig 1:10:21
Not quite that extreme. I mean, sometimes people don't think that their language can be used in certain ways. I think Oh, only Burmese can be used for poetry. My language isn't sufficient. She did things like that. I don't think I've ever had any push back against literacy. But again, I wouldn't be working with them if they didn't want to, because I can't just force them to write down their language. Right.
Brad 1:10:58
Yeah. But these so these communities, by and large, they are already literate in Burmese Correct?
Katie Craig 1:11:05
Hmm. Not always. And it kind of depends on what you mean by literate. Like a lot of people can read and write, or at least read Burmese, but they don't necessarily understand what it says. Does that make sense? Cuz I thought it was cool. There's kind of memorize. Okay. This debt? I don't know what that means. But it says that, so I can read it. I can tell you what it's written yet. But I don't know what it means.
Brad 1:11:31
Yeah, I bet you bet. But at least so the communities understand what writing is, and therefore they understand the value of, of writing as a tool that you can use for community like they see how useful and important this is, is what I'm getting at.
Katie Craig 1:11:48
I mean, I've never really asked specifically, I think, but I think that is something that we sort of have to explain or sort of work with them. So sometimes I think people want their language to be written because it's sort of status thing. Sometimes, people who want their language to be written, want it to be written, because they weren't, for example, to have the Bible and language, because it is other groups with the Bible in their language. So they think, well, we needed to
Brad 1:12:30
so many different motivations.
Katie Craig 1:12:32
I think so I, you know, I think a lot of these communities are very much oral societies, right? They don't necessarily use the written word that much. So part of what we do is explained well, you know, if you have a foundation in your first language, like you can learn additional language languages better. Right? So it's difficult to both learn a new language while also learning sort of concept of the written word. Does that make sense? Yes.
Brad 1:13:04
And so I'm wondering, because very early on, you mentioned, the lethal as a group, and for for those who are unaware, much, many of the communities on the outskirts, so many of the communities in border regions were Christianized, by missionaries, quite some time ago. And those missionaries often played an important role in, as you say, translating the Bible into different languages, and also in the development of scripts. And I believe Lisa is one of the examples of this was someone created a new writing system based on the Latin alphabet? But from memory they they operate by rotating the shapes of the letters of Latin alphabet to indicate combinations of sounds? Have you ever worked on creating something completely novel like that? Or do you stick to tried and tested, you know, scalable, that have already been utilized elsewhere?
Katie Craig 1:14:06
No, I haven't. And usually, I don't come in until they already have an idea. Sometimes they already have a working orthography. So no, I have not done that. I would have guessed that most groups would not really want to do that. But it could be wrong. I don't know.
Brad 1:14:28
I mean, especially in the computer age, it's it's more and more important to use things that have already got computer compatibility, even if that means making compromises on on sounds and efficiency. So the last thing that I want to move on to is probably the most important thing that should have started with is the actual education programs that you guys want. So you're talking about off to school programs and literacy programs. So clearly, a lot of these people And they're going to schools. They're going to government schools they're being educated in, in Burmese. And so you're providing ancillary education where they can practice their own language. Are you also delivering local culture specific subjects in the schools? Or is it just language focused?
Katie Craig 1:15:21
Well, we don't run any schools or cells, they're usually run by the local community. So they just do whatever they want, whatever, however, they want to decide to set up their schools or their classes. local culture, yeah, I mean, some groups, you know, they have these fully formed educational systems. So you can look at you can look at their curriculum and their curriculum goals and objectives. And, yeah, it's pretty explicitly stated, like we want to teach and preserve our heritage or culture or language.
Brad 1:16:00
Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. And so So you guys are just coming into design, this this general curriculum and deliver to them the materials and the structure and sort of pathway forward, and then they can take it from there and decide how they want to utilize that. Is that correct?
Katie Craig 1:16:19
Yeah, I've really looked at for every group. Um, yeah, like I said, some have really fully functioning education systems, some have a few schools, some have extracurricular classes, some haven't really started anything, but they know they want to start something. So sometimes, if they haven't really started anything, we kind of have to help them, like, think through this. Okay, like, what do you How are you going to do this logistically, practically? Who are your teachers gonna be? I think it'd be paid. I think we volunteer? Do you need like a physical building? So it's really quite a wide range.
Brad 1:16:54
Okay, so you basically just have to come in like tabula rasa, and say, All right, what is your situation? What are your needs, boil it down for me? And then you would go back and try to develop a solution or as many solutions as you can to fit the needs of that particular community? Because that's what Yeah, yeah, I would say so. Well, and so I'm wondering, have you seen the results of the work that you do, like, if you're not the one running the schools, it can be very difficult to know what long term impact there has been or hasn't been of these? If you just deliver the curriculum, and you deliver options to people? And then you go on to another community and try to solve their problems? Do you get the opportunity to go back and see how these programs have developed over time?
Katie Craig 1:17:43
Oh, yeah, sometimes, you know, both of my colleagues have done research sort of in, in that vein. So they, yeah, been able to kind of formally assess that to some extent. But especially with language, I mean, we don't necessarily see the results for, you know, 678 years. Yeah, you can do patient.
Brad 1:18:05
So the question then is, you know, you you work for these communities, you try to help them to preserve their languages. Realistically, how, how bad is the situation in Myanmar for minority languages? Do you think that there are going to be languages that are going to be lost? And there's not much that we can do about that? Or do you think it is possible for us to act now and preserve all of the minority languages?
Katie Craig 1:18:35
Yeah, it's interesting. This sort of push for assimilation has, in some cases, kind of had the opposite effect. This kind of bolstered this sort of pride in one's form, identity and language. So it's kind of encouraged more language preservation in a lot of ways, and some communities. But also the fact that there's such little infrastructure, it's just kind of physically difficult to get from one place to another sometimes. So some of these smaller languages, that would probably be endangered if me and my head sort of develops like other maybe even Thailand, could be so much more language contact. So they would probably be more endangered. If that were the case, the lack of infrastructure has kind of in some ways, helped preserve languages, I think. So yeah, it's in terms of language endangerment, it's not as bad as other places. But it's very easy for it to sort of go the other way, especially when you have this like was talking about standard language, ideology and push for not just assimilation, but just more dominant languages, right, both of these English other languages.
Brad 1:19:59
And I would imagine But I mean, you talk about the lack of development. We do see, in major city centers, we do see migration to urban centers, people looking for education opportunities, and people looking for employment opportunities. So I would imagine that, while on the one hand, the lack of development in rural areas means that this sort of I'm not trying to be particularly heavy handed with my terminology, but predatory language contact is is less prevalent. I would imagine that the same time, the new generations, they are being sent to urban centers to find opportunities and to find work where possible. And that could potentially lead to their their own loss of connection to their language and use of their language. And if they settle in an urban center, and things like that, Have you have you seen these communities talking about, you know, effectively losing their youth to urban centers for for economic reasons?
Katie Craig 1:21:08
Yes, and no, I mean, I think another sort of part of this is the fact that people move to urban centers, because they were fleeing violence. So they also are, what's the word and sometimes afraid to use their language? Because using the language is kind of a Shibboleth of death, right. So I think it's multi faceted. I don't know if people are talking about that or not. You know, there's still quite a few, like, I'm not sure how to say enclaves, there's different dorms will people go like your Shen Do you know, SHAN per setting, and you're gone? They might have like a shine dorms, Mission dorm. So that kind of helps preserve a language, I think. Yeah.
Brad 1:22:06
It's interesting. Now, it's just because in other countries, you know, I've seen these sorts of situations, New Caledonia comes to mind where you go to the urban centers, and very few people speak their heritage language in the urban centers, because all the ethnic groups are mixed together so closely, that French becomes the only language that you would have reason to use. And once you leave the urban centers, each tribe continues to communicate in their heritage language, because, again, lack of development and therefore lack of language contact, so they're able to preserve their heritage in that way. But it's, again, it's interesting to hear, yes. Go ahead. I was just gonna say, it's interesting to hear your insights, because because every country is unique. And even with a country like Myanmar, each region is unique. So it's, it's good to hear that it's not happening the same way that people are managing to preserve their heritage languages, even after they migrate to a place where they have now become a linguistic minority.
Katie Craig 1:23:09
Yeah, I was gonna say I well, I think part of is because I don't know that much about urbanization. But there's a man, a researcher at Latrobe University. His name's Dr. Gerald Roche. And he had like just posted something about urbanization and language loss on Twitter. So he essentially says that we need to, like move beyond the approach of just simple urbanization, and focus more on urbanization as a process and an emphasis on political ecology, rather than simply ecology. That's the quote. Does that make sense?
Brad 1:23:52
I mean, urbanization is also not my specialty. So I think I grasp the loose concept but not if you asked me to explain it to others to compare the two.
Katie Craig 1:24:03
Yeah, he's the same like there's sort of this focus on the city as a static place right. Yeah, that it kind of is creates its own sort of language ecology that endanger summon supports others. That's what he says. Anyway, it's not mine areas of specialty either, but I he always has lots of good insights. So for anyone that wants to read more about Gerald Roshan, his work
Brad 1:24:44
absolutely, I mean, it's always it's always good to bring in the sort of outside specialties and outside references because it allows people to go off in those so many directions of research. But But anyway, I just want to say this. This has been absolutely delightful and edifying for me. I've thoroughly enjoyed this discussion, even if it did sort of wander into strange and unexpected places from time to time. So I just want to ask you, before we wrap up here, is there any overarching thought, or maybe even food for thought that you want to leave the audience with?
Katie Craig 1:25:31
I mean, I wish we would just talk about language more. I wish that we would study linguistics in school, I wish it was a compulsory subject. And not just you know, what people usually think of linguistics as grammar and phonetics, but also the social aspect, the form and function of language and the politics and power of language. Because most people don't really even have a framework to approach it. And they just have no idea what to think or what they should be asking, right. So really, if we just start talking about language
Brad 1:26:12
once again, thank you to everybody who's joining us. And I'd like to extend a special thanks to my guest, Kitty Craig for taking us on a totally invigorating journey through the many in various language communities and cultures of your mouth, and for shining a light on some very serious issues surrounding language, identity and politics. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope you learned something new. And I hope that you join us next time.
Host 1:26:36
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