The Art of Letting Go
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“This whole idea of identity is the trouble that our mind is cultivating. So for me, in this situation, to let go of identity— 'I am a monk, I’m a Thai monk, or Burmese monk, or all of that' —was actually my letting go and renunciation process. It’s not so applicable for many people, but for me, the renunciation from layperson to monk and from monk to layperson were both just extremely powerful transitions. At first, I cut my [lay] life, and it was also a decision to cut it. It wasn’t like a plan to be a monk for a while, but really, it was a decision to take this noble practice until my heart was ready and mature. Then, to disrobe and return to lay life was another process of renunciation. I can honestly say that from my personal standpoint, this one and a half years [of lay life] has tested me in situations where I had to deal with more difficulties, struggles, and challenges, and yet, I feel that as a Dhamma practitioner and as a Dhamma teacher, I’ve grown in a way I probably wouldn’t have if I’d just stayed in my previous form.”
Sebastian Copija's journey from becoming a Buddhist monk to disrobing and again embracing lay life is a story of deep introspection, evolving priorities, and the search for balance. This is his second visit to the podcast. In the first discussion, he recounted his path from a childhood in Poland to ordaining as a monk in Thailand, as well as exploring the contrasts between Thai and Burmese monastic practices.
In the Theravada Buddhist tradition, monastic life is a highly disciplined path that involves renouncing personal possessions and abstaining from certain worldly activities. Monastics live by a strict code of conduct known as the Vinaya, which governs even minute aspects of a person’s behavior. This helps create a space that is very conducive to meditation and self-inquiry. In addition, Buddhist monks rely on alms and the generosity of laypeople for their basic needs, which reinforces a sense of humility and interdependence. During his time as a monk, Sebastian spent much time in intensive, silent practice, and deeply appreciated the reliance on others for food and shelter as both humbling and heart-opening. However, over time, he began to notice that while this practice did foster detachment, it inhibited a fuller engagement with the world. And so, during a visit back to Europe to care for his ailing parents, he made the difficult decision to disrobe.
Sebastian explains that mindfulness (sati) is a critical quality of awareness that allows one to observe one’s thoughts, emotions, and sensations without attachment. It is a cornerstone of Buddhist practice, aimed at developing insight (vipassana) into the impermanent and non-self nature of all experience; Sebastian spent many years cultivating mindfulness within the silence of his monastic life. Perhaps unexpectedly, however, he found that it is even more crucial in lay life, where the challenges are both less predictable and more varied. Indeed, lay life has opened up entirely new avenues for practice that were not available to him as a monk. In particular, he has re-focused on human relationships. As a monk, he could go for long periods without speaking, maintaining stillness in his interactions, free from any deep, interpersonal challenges. But in re-entering lay life, he had to learn how to navigate the deeper, sometimes messy emotions that arise in social and personal interaction… including emotions he once found easy to avoid. This has become a crucial aspect of his new practice, pushing him to cultivate an open heart in situations where he previously would have retreated into simplicity, silence, and solitude.
And within this new realm of practice, romantic relationships, in particular, present a rich opportunity for growth. He describes his current partner as being a spiritual friend and stresses that a shared commitment to the Dhamma forms the foundation of their relationship. This allows them to support each other in practice without placing unrealistic expectations on their relationship. Both he and his partner are open to either, or both, of them potentially returning to monastic life, illustrating how they prioritize spiritual growth over all else. This shared intention, he says, makes the relationship a supportive and nurturing aspect of his practice rather than a distraction.
Sebastian also became reacquainted with small pleasures he had once taken for granted. For example, he found that just taking a walk around his hometown as an ordinary person was deeply satisfying! No one recognized him or even paid him any attention: a far cry from the attention he attracted wearing monks' robes, with a shaven head and begging bowl. He now felt invisible, which was surprisingly joyful and freeing, and allowed him to experience the world anew, as though seeing it for the first time.
One challenge of lay life, however, involves the fast pace and complexity of day-to-day decision-making, which initially was a bit disorienting. Having grown accustomed to living by the Vinaya, with material desires limited by the lack of possessions, he suddenly found himself faced with the pressing burden of choosing again—what to eat, how to dress, how to manage his time. He approached this new freedom to make choices with the same awareness he cultivated in meditation; each small decision can either be a moment of mindfulness, or stress!
Early on in negotiating his life as a lay person, Sebastian decided to become a lay Dhamma teacher. His mission is to spread the practices of mindfulness, kindness, and insight to an increasingly interested lay audience, and bring the lessons he had learned as a monastic to those who may not be able to relate to or access such rigorous practice environments. He emphasizes that a lay life is not a lesser path—it is simply different than being a monastic. Both have unique merits and challenges, and the ultimate goal of mindfulness and insight can be pursued through either, depending on one's circumstances. His approach targets the rhythms and challenges of lay practitioners, informed by his own transition to lay life. He developed a six-week mindfulness course for people who want to integrate mindfulness into their lives, without needing to commit to an intensive retreat. The course invites practitioners to start with simple meditation, building gradually on daily practices while incorporating mindfulness into common tasks like walking or washing dishes.
Besides meditation techniques, Sebastian’s teaching focuses on builds a community where openness, sincerity, and spiritual friendship can thrive—qualities that he believes are lacking in many modern relationships. So another important element of his teaching is emphasizing open dialog within a community setting. Practitioners meet each week and are encouraged to share their experiences openly, be they challenges, insights, or struggles. Developing sincere, safe and honest relationships mirrors the openness and vulnerability that Sebastian experienced with his monastic brothers.
Another key aspect of his teaching is integrating mindfulness throughout the day, particularly in challenging situations. Sebastian teaches his students to observe their reactions: the way they cling to pleasant feelings or resist unpleasant ones. He helps his students learn how to approach every situation with the insight that, regardless of the details, it is impermanent and not-self. He notes that practitioners have reported that this approach has enabled them to deal with personal challenges—relationships, careers, deep-rooted traumas—with more grace and wisdom. Sebastian guides them not to run away from difficulties but to embrace them as opportunities for developing greater insight and understanding.
While Sebastian certainly finds fulfillment in his lay life, he acknowledges that some joys of monastic life remain irreplaceable. He deeply misses the vulnerability and surrender inherent in not handling money or accumulating possessions—living day by day without the security of stored food or savings was a way to deeply experience interdependence and impermanence. Though no longer a monk, he still tries to embody these values by living simply, minimizing possessions, and relying on the generosity of others to sustain his Dhamma teaching activities. This allows him to integrate some of the core lessons of monastic life alive within the context of lay existence.
“When you disrobe, it’s just gone! It’s gone, and like 10 years of your life is gone! Suddenly, the only thing you have is the experience, the stability, the clarity of the Dhamma that you’ve developed,” he says. “And if you developed nothing, then you have nothing! But if you did understand something and can apply it, then it is amazing. The mind is tricky and usually uncomfortable in any situation, but to actually accept the conditions, to ground myself in the Dhamma and just let go—am I a monastic? Am I a layperson? And since returning here, I’ve learned that it’s not the robes or the external conditions that define my practice but the application of the Dhamma to every moment of life, every object, and every situation.”
If you enjoyed this episode, consider checking out past shows that touched on similar themes:
· Jansen (Ashin Sarana) shares his transition from monastic life to lay status, noting how he was motivated by the practical challenges of sustaining monastic discipline while pursuing modern educational and personal aspirations. His reflections illuminate the tension between traditional monastic rules and the necessity of adapting practice to lay life, demonstrating how the core principles of the Dhamma can guide such transitions.
· Sayalay Khanticari discusses the contrast between her upbringing in a secular, lay household in Colombia to the life of a Buddhist nun in Myanmar, which involved reconciling the material success with a deeper yearning for spiritual growth. Her story illustrates the transformative power of the Dhamma and its capacity to inspire a redefinition of one’s identity and purpose across cultural and existential divides.
· Natalie Ducastelle openly shares that her life included struggles with integrating spiritual practice alongside her experiences with addiction and the complexities of sexuality. As a former sex worker, stripper, and recovering addict, she describes how her understanding of intimacy and relationships evolved over time, underscoring the interplay between physical, emotional, and spiritual dimensions of human connection in her path to healing and growth.
· Alan Clements recounts his journey as a monastic in Myanmar during a politically repressive era, when his relationships with revered teachers and the tightly structured environment of the monastery provided a foundation for profound spiritual growth. Upon returning to lay life, he navigated the challenge of maintaining his practice while fostering new relationships with lay communities, emphasizing the adaptability of the Dhamma across changing life structures.
· Tamara Edwards shares that her initial introduction to vipassana meditation as a lay practitioner in India eventually led her to deepen her practice in Myanmar, navigating between lay and monastic environments. Her reflections on immersing herself in monastic settings revealed the ways in which the Dhamma transcends lifestyle boundaries, fostering spiritual growth across different modes of life.